Over the last month Beliefnet.com has sponsored an online debate between LDS author Orson Scott Card and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary president Dr. R. Albert Mohler. As I was reading some of the debate today, one bit from Mr. Card’s argument posted on July 11th caught my attention. While acknowledging that Mormonism and “traditional orthodox Christianity” differ dramatically in their theology, Mr. Card wrote:
“I wish Dr. Mohler would take the tiny, tiny step of saying, not that Mormons are right, but that a person can believe as a Mormon does and still do good works in the name of Christ, that would be acceptable to Christ by that clear, bright standard:
“Even as ye have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”
Mr. Card’s biblical quote is from Matthew 25:40. It’s part Jesus’ teaching concerning His future final judgment.
To me, Mr. Card’s request of Dr. Mohler seems unfair. If he had asked Dr. Mohler to agree that people who believe as Mormons still do good works which help relieve the suffering of the poor and needy, Dr. Mohler would likely have been willing to take that “tiny, tiny step.” But Mr. Card goes beyond that and asks Dr. Mohler to assent to the claim that those same good works would be acceptable to Christ — in the context of judgment and salvation. This question ties into theology and is a different matter entirely.
Jesus’ words cited by Mr. Card are directed at “those on His right hand” (v. 34), set there by Christ and identified by Him as “the righteous” (v. 37). They didn’t even realize they were serving Him as they went about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (vv. 37-39). Without getting into an extended exegesis of the Matthew passage surrounding the verse cited by Mr. Card, a commentary note on just the verse he chose says this:
“25:40 the least of these My brethren. Christ’s disciples (10:42; 12:48, 49; 18:14), not the poor and needy in general. The judgment of the nations depends on how they respond to Christians and the gospel (10:40-42), not only because it is through the testimony of Christians that the Gentiles can hear and believe (Rom. 10:14), but also because Christ identifies with His people. Their suffering is His suffering, and compassion shown to them is compassion shown to Him.”
Elsewhere in Scripture God explains the universal condition of unredeemed man:
“but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies; your tongue mutters wickedness…. Their works are works of iniquity, and deeds of violence are in their hands.” (Isaiah 59:1-6)
“We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)
“as it is written: ‘None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good, not even one.’ ‘Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.’ ‘The venom of asps is under their lips.’ ‘Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.’ ‘Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.’ ‘There is no fear of God before their eyes.'” (Romans 3:10-18)
If the Scripture is true, it’s foolhardy to imagine that our “good works” would be “acceptable to Christ” in the context of salvation. How dare we think that we, whose hands are defiled and whose “righteous deeds” are polluted by our iniquities, will merit — by virtue of our “good works” — a place with the “righteous” at the right of Jesus. Given the clear teachings of the Bible, Dr. Mohler would not be free to take the “tiny, tiny step” requested by Mr. Card. Yes, a person believing as a Mormon may do “good works [from a human perspective] in the name of Christ,” but that’s as far as we can go. For Jesus said,
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:21-23)
Hear the Word of the Lord.
Related Resource:
One Door to Salvation by Charles H. Spurgeon.
No amount of good works can or will save us. When Adam and Eve sinned while still in the garden, Adam and Eve Covered themselves. God told them that was not good enough, Adam and Eve though the Good work of covering them selves would suffice, God said No.
Only by shed blood, the Blood God himself shed, He died to cover us. Then we read about Cain and Able, Cain’s Vegetables grown by his hands and his works were not good and pleasing to the Lord, only Able’s animles would do, Why, because it would result in Shed blood, Gods plan all along.
Try as we might, we can never pay our debt by the works we do. Rick b
Rick do you know how horrible that sounds? I’m sorry but to be the whole idea of blood sacrifice is grotesque. I am not a mormon but one thing they do that I think makes sense for all Christians, is to avoid using the cross as a symbol. To me that is a symbol of torture and death. I’d much rather see symbols of life and hope.
Interested,
Our only hope of life IS the cross. What was intended as a symbol of death became a symbol of triumph for His people in light of the empty tomb. Only by His shed blood are we forgiven. It is Christ on the cross “whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood” (Romans 3:25). It was indeed a symbol of torture and death, but it is that punishment of sin that is fulfilled by Christ, so that we don’t have to face the wrath that we so richly deserve. One can’t truly understand grace unless you understand what His grace saved us from. What is missing from mormonism and sadly far too many Christian churches is the stark reality of mankind’s sinful nature and utter depravity, how lost and dead we were in our trespasses and sins before we were born again.
Mormons don’t shy away from the cross for any reason other than it exposes the lies of personal worthiness, because on the cross Jesus who knew no sin became sin for us, and by His blood the wrath of God passes over us, just like the picture in Exodus of the wrath of God passing over the Israelites because of the blood of the lamb without blemish on their doorway. It makes people squeamish in 2007, all this talk about blood but I would recommend you re-read Hebrews 9, and ponder verse 22 especially: “Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” If you reject His blood, if you reject His work on the cross, you reject His grace.
The whole “debate” on beliefnet was disappointing, yet not surprising. Dr, Mohler graciously stuck to the topic while Mr. Card was all over the place. Mr. Card was clearly out of his league theologically and is so often the case in witnessing to mormons he did all he could to avoid getting pinned down by specifics.
Interested, that might sound gross to you, but the shed blood of Christ is the only thing that will remove our sin. why dont you go and read the first few chapters of the bible, read the Genisis account and you will read about what I said. Rick b
Interested said
To you and all others who avoid the Cross of Christ, I give this Scripture and ask, IS THIS YOU?
Arthur Sido: What is missing from mormonism and sadly far too many Christian churches is the stark reality of mankind’s sinful nature and utter depravity
Har! Utter depravity is not just missing Arthur — Mormons reject such notions as false pernicious doctrines. Sure, the flesh fights our spirits, but Mormons take the scriptures seriously and literally when they say all people are children of God. Our spirits are not and never have been totally depraved.
Mormons don’t shy away from the cross for any reason other than it exposes the lies of personal worthiness
Well I personally shy away from wearing the cross as a symbol because I don’t want anyone to mistake me for believing in the cruel and ungracious Jesus the evangelicals preach about. You know, the Jesus in evangelical theology who creates all people but sends 95% of them to be tortured forever in hell for not believing as evangelicals do whether people were ever even given the opportunity to hear such doctrines or not… I personally would hate for anyone to associate me with that kind of theology — it has very little to do with the Jesus described in the fours Gospels in my opinion.
So what you are saying is that one can live an isolated life, locked in their home without any interaction with the outside world – by choice (ie no medical/physical/mental problems), have a belief in Jesus as their Saviour and because of their belief they will receive salvation? They are not murdering, committing adultery, etc, so they fill that side of the ‘criteria’ by keeping the commandments.
I cannot believe that this scenario will lead to the person achieving salvation as it flies in the face of the Bible. In the Bible it teaches that pure and undefiled religion that is acceptable by Christ is visiting the orphaned and widowed. Jesus Himself, issued a new commandment for His believers to follow – Love one another as I have loved you. He actively went out and taught people, healed the sick, etc. From the scriptures quoted above from Matthew we learn more. In chapter 7 Jesus is not saying that those who do good works in His name are workers of iniquity, but there are people that profess to believe in Jesus and do things in His name, but they do not actually believe in Him so their works in His name are false. This is one thing that other Christian churches say about the LDS church, but that their good works/deeds/actions will be acceptable because they are the true believers. In Matt 25, regardless of how one interprets it (I disagree with the interpretation given, but that’s my opinion) Jesus’ sheep did good works which set them above the rest for salvation. In the interpretation given, it appears that the Christian community need only serve themselves, not others (I could be misunderstanding it), but they still did good works/deeds/ actions. Finally Jesus taught that we should be doers of His words, not just hearers.
So faith and religion as described in the Bible are ‘get out there and do something good’ words. So the question remains – which of all of these beliefs is the correct one? We will find out from God Himself after this life.
So… a man does many good works. He gives millions of dollars to charity, he volunters in soup kitchens, he helps his neighbor and is generally one of the most compasionate, loving persons in our country. As an atheist he does more for his fellow man than most christians or mormons in his community. Now..it turns out that in the end their is an afterlife. How will your god (christian or mormon)look at this person?
Interested,
In evangelical doctrine that man would be sent directly to hell to be tortured forever for believing the wrong thing about God.
In Mormon doctrine such an honorable and loving person would be automatically saved from an eternal hell by the grace of God and would be given the opportunity to be taught the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the spirit world prior to resurrection and final judgment. If he accepted the fullness of the gospel there he could receive the highest degree of glory within heaven (the Celestial kingdom in Mormon parlance) which has glory compared to the glory of the sun in scriptures. But even if he rejected the fullness of the gospel he would still receive the middle general kingdom of heaven (the terrestrial kingdom in Mormon parlance) which has glory compared to the glory of the moon in scriptures (see 1 Cor. 15: 40-42).
Interested,
This guy that you describe sounds great…I’d like to meet him. What an amazing Atheist who does some wonderful things!
Unfortunately for him, he will be punished for all of the many many things he does to anger God…these good things you mention will not erase those other things. It’s the same in an earthly court of law…you’re being sentenced for numerous crimes, the Judge asks you what you’ve got to say for yourself, and you say “But what about all of the times I gave money to the poor?” The judge says; that’s great, but you’re still guilty of the crimes you’ve committed and someone has to pay. As Christians, we know that either we’ll pay, (eternal suffering in Hell) or we’ll received Christ’s payment in our behalf, if we repent, and put our trust in Jesus and that the payment was “Paid in full.”
Robert you said: The judge says; that’s great, but you’re still guilty of the crimes you’ve committed and someone has to pay.
I understand that in the sense of the man committed a crime but the man of whom I speak has committed no crime. If you say that he is born guilty then I don’t understand because I thought you said Christ died to pay for all the sins, transgressions, crimes committed by us all. If that is true and this man is a good citizen, neighbor and generally a good person even though he sees no evidence for a god, how can he be punished for such it it turns out that there is a god?
Geoff J.,
“Well I personally shy away from wearing the cross as a symbol because I don’t want anyone to mistake me for believing in the cruel and ungracious Jesus the evangelicals preach about. You know, the Jesus in evangelical theology who creates all people but sends 95% of them to be tortured forever in hell for not believing as evangelicals do whether people were ever even given the opportunity to hear such doctrines or not… I personally would hate for anyone to associate me with that kind of theology — it has very little to do with the Jesus described in the fours Gospels in my opinion.”
You are certainly welcome to your opinion, although it flies in the face of the Biblical evidence. Christ spoke often and very clearly on this matter : there is a literal, eternal hell and there are many who will spend eternity there. They are condemned because they have not believed in His name.
What about the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16? The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Is Christ being “cruel and ungracious” here? Or perhaps the rich man is a mormon apostate? I doubt that the rich man had the chance to hear the mormon missionaries and yet here he is in hell. Have you read the Gospels? The good news is not that Jesus is sending everyone to heaven, and good mormons get to become gods. The good news is that while we were yet sinner, Christ died for us. That we love Him because He first loved us. Given that you claim that mormons “take the scriptures seriously and literally”, you seem awfully selective about what you choose to believe.
Geoff, regarding your other comment: “In evangelical doctrine that man would be sent directly to hell to be tortured forever for believing the wrong thing about God.”
That is a gross misrepresentation of the Biblical doctrine. The person mentioned above would be sent to hell because they are a sinner, as we all are, and the penalty for sin is death. Those who place their faith in Christ are forgiven because of what He has done in their place on the cross. Those who place their faith in anything else (including adding their own “good” works to His work) are condemned already because they have not believed in Him (see John 3: 36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him”)
Are you saved because of your good works or do you do good works because you are saved? What about someone who blasphemes God, rejects His Son and yet does all manner of what we would consider good works, giving to charity, helping the homeless, being nice to puppies. Does he deserve salvation because his neighbors think he is a nice guy? The Bible says no, he has rejected the Son of God and as such remains under condemnation.
This is important. People are not by nature neutral, and God capriciously divides them up into “saved” and “unsaved” at His whim. Rather, all of us are dead in our trespasses and sins, and unless we are born again, we cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. It isn’t about the secret handshakes I learned in the temple. It is about being born again, and that sort of change can only be wrought by God.
Let me state it again clearly, if you reject His Cross, you reject His Grace and your own works have no salvific power whatsoever. You can stand before Him on the day of Judgment and when condemned to hell for relying on your own works, you can tell Jesus He is being “cruel and ungracious”.
Arthur Sido,
You conveniently left out the reason the rich man in Luke 16 was in hell. It was for his evil works. He was unmerciful and unkind and ungracious and unloving to the poor and his reward was hell. Mormon doctrine teaches there is a hell too after all — it is for people who are the exact opposite of the gracious and merciful and loving atheist Interested described earlier. But in Mormonism even hell will have an end for the vast majority of the wicked and even they will be saved into the lowest kingdom of heaven (compared to the glory of the stars in scriptures) after suffering in hell for all of their own sins. This is due to the great mercy and grace of God.
So your “Mormon apostate” jab won’t get you far. Mormonism teaches about an actually amazing form of grace from Christ. I personally am amazed at how ungracious evangelicals assume Christ actually is and how often y’all try to prove how unmerciful he is with the Bible.
Interested,
this man you speak of without crime…does he exist? The bible says that all have sinned…no one does good…
So who are we talking about?
bob
And by the way…Arthur Sido, above, put it most succinctly, much better than I could have.
bob
Geoff,
There is nothing amazing about Mormon Grace it lacks any concept of true Love. It is a whimsical changing and non righteous or holy love. Frankly it is a false love and a false grace.
God by His nature and His design is HOLY and Righteous and eternal and so are His decrees His demands. Geoff you have violated the first and second commandment by creating a god to suit yourself and your sin. God warns against doing such things as it is idolatry, and it is one of the oldest sins in the book. I know you take issue with how many people will be saved, but you are the clay and He is the potter, you cannot impose your values on Him that created you and everything else.
Geoff,
You said LDS deny orinigal sin. So how is it if we are not born in sin and born with a sinful nature, how do we all of a sudden become corrupt? LDS along with all other humans LIE, CHEAT, STEAL, CHEAT ON THEIR WIVES, HAVE LUSTFUL THOUGHTS, HAVE THOUGHTS OF RAGE, ANGER MALICE, Not all of these apply to everyone, not every human struggles with every thing I listed, but they do struggle with at least one if not more.
So if we are born sinless, what causes us to go from not being a sinner to being a sinner? Rick b
Yes he does exist. I will not mention his name here but he is quite well known and all would recognize his name. He is one of the kindest most giving persons I know, yet he sees no evidence for a supreme being. Even without believing he does much for the nation and the world.
I supose it is silly to argue for an athiest on this blog but the topic is works and I see so many good works done by non believers. I can’t believe that they will be punished.
Interested said he does exist. He might, but who cares, he is still a sinner in need of a saviour. Show me from the Bible where you can Reject Jesus or claim he does not exist and then still be saved. Rick b
Andy,
Rattling off accusations without any supporting evidence whatsoever doesn’t really make you sound like you know what you are talking about.
As for “imposing values” on God — he imposed values on us through the Bible. Evangelical theology has him as a hypocrite who insists we love one another and be merciful and kind to each other while he plans to send 95% of all people to burn forever in hell even though most of the people y’all say are hellbound will never even hear about the evangelical flavor of Christianity. That is not the image of a merciful and gracious God whatsoever, but that seems to be the image y’all have created for yourselves as a result of following the teaching of non-prophets like Augustine.
Now of course you are free to believe that. Just don’t be surprised when others see you as off your theological rockers on occasion.
Rick: So if we are born sinless, what causes us to go from not being a sinner to being a sinner?
Free will — particularly when a child grows old enough to be held accountable for her freely chosen thoughts, words, and deeds.
Geoff’s comment: ——— In evangelical doctrine that man would be sent directly to hell to be tortured forever for believing the wrong thing about God. ———
Actually this is only partially complete and leaves out a dandy little evangelical detail.
In evangelical doctine that man would die- then the evangelical God will resurrect him and give him a new and perfect imortal body that will live forever and never die- and THEN he will be cast into the most unbelievable and excrutiatinly miserable hell to be tortured and suffer for ALL ETERNITY with ABSOLUTELY NOT HOPE OF ESCAPE WHATSOEVER FOREVER- for beleiving the wrong thing about God.
Can somebody here please tell me how this makes sense? Anyone?
Geoff,
What support do you want? Reading purely from the Bible and not from any Apostolic Fathers we see that God is Holy, 1 Peter 1:16 He is Just Romans 2:10 He is Righteous Psalm 11:7. I think the problem Geoff is will you accept the Bible for what it says. If you read Romans 9 it makes it clear, that God is the judge and He can do what He wills with creation. The Bible repeatedly discusses these issues, I will lay out all the verses, the problem is not the evidence it is your willingness to accept that evidence. You will pass it off as “not translated properly” or you will say some off the cuff conspiracy of a Roman Emperor caused that. God has given you His word and a conscience. I have provided the proof to you, please provide proof in the god you are describing, he is not in the bible. On judgment day the fact that you did not want to believe in Him will not be an excuse, or even if you think your morals are better than His. I know that it is easier to say that this is not so, but it is the pursuit of truth that is important here.
Inhimindependent,
“In evangelical doctine that man would die- then the evangelical God will resurrect him and give him a new and perfect imortal body that will live forever and never die- and THEN he will be cast into the most unbelievable and excrutiatinly miserable hell to be tortured and suffer for ALL ETERNITY with ABSOLUTELY NOT HOPE OF ESCAPE WHATSOEVER FOREVER- for beleiving the wrong thing about God.”
Again, it is not about believing the wrong thing about God. People are sent to hell because they are sinners. As a Baptist, I don’t think a Lutheran is going to hell because he doesn’t share every line of doctrine with me. I don’t think that mormons are going to hell because they believe in the wrong things, but because they put their faith in the wrong God. The differences between Christianity and mormonism are not minor issues of doctrine, but a completely different belief system worshipping a completely different kind of god. There isn’t a theology test to get into heaven. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the penalty for sin is, and has always been, death. Every person is guilty of that sin, and stands condemned. The only reason that anyone escapes hell is that Christ paid the penalty for their sin on the cross. The Bible is very clear about this. Read in the Old Testament of mankind’s failure to be faithful to God, but read it in light of the cross. Read the New Testament in light of the garden and man’s sin nature. .
Don’t let a misrepresentation of the Bible like “God sends people to hell for believing the wrong thing” keep you from seeking out His truth in His Word.
This conversation is indicative of just how wide the chasm is between Christianity and mormonism. The difference boils down to this: who is God? To the Christian, He is the great I AM who has revealed Himself in His Bible for who He is. To the mormon, God is a man-made image, god how a sinner would want Him. Every conversation between Christians and mormons must start and end here, with the nature of God. If you can’t get agreement on that, we are just talking past each other because we are not talking about the same thing. A Baptist and a Presbyterian can have a dialogue about issues of doctrine because despite our differences, we are in fundamental agreement about who God is as He has revealed Himself in the Bible. Geoff claims to take the Bible seriously but only when it tells him what he wants to hear.
Mormonism gives sinners what they want: A god who rewards you for doing what makes you seem righteous in your own eyes rather than what He has commanded. The Bible reveals a God who is sovereign over all things, including (I would say especially) salvation. You don’t get to dictate to God how you want Him to be. He has declared Himself to us. The whole issue of works based salvation stems directly from a misinformed doctrine of God.
I take God for who He says He is in the Bible. You cannot reconcile the Bible with mormonism, because the God described is of necessity a completely different being.
After several comments here questioning the love and mercy of a God who would judge and punish sin eternally, questioning how the evangelical understanding of judgment can possibly make sense, my thoughts turned to Romans 9. Paul confronted objections to his inspired theological teachings with these words:
One might resist the idea of a fully sovereign God whose perfect holiness compels His judgment, but He is who He is. He has spoken.
Arthur Sido’s comment: ——– Again, it is not about believing the wrong thing about God. ———
Arthur,
No. it DOES come down to believeing the wrong thing about God from the evangelical perspective. I was an evangelical Chritian for 33 years before becoming an LDS Christian. I had faith in Christ as an evangelical Christian and i now have faith in Christ as an LDS Christian… but the evangelical view will say that LDS are going to burn in hell forever because i believe the wrong thing about God- for example that the Father and Son are two seperate and distinct beings.
I am very very familiar with the evangelical view Arthur, and yes i was a Baptist evangelical- and i know you were LDS. But the evangelical view DOES come down to “believeing the wrong thing about God.”
It is the evangelical view of God that is the manmade creation- it is an abstract philosophical construct perpetuated by the creeds and it is ultimatly NOT Biblical. I believe in the Biblical Jesus. It is just that the LDS view is the authentic and real God and Jesus- not the philosophical evangelical creedal version.
I do not have the time to comment further at the moment but there is not going to be anything you can present from the evangelical view that is new to me or that i do not already understand.
much more could be said i am sure.
Sharron,
I accept Roman 9:14-21 completely and whole-heartedly just as i do everything in the Bible. But for me that passage does not translate into understanding God to be the cruel torturing being that is the evangelical view. You are interpreting that passage through a philosophical lense of creedal Christianity and not out of a personal expereince with a loving Father that cares for us more than we can imagine- and is able to still be just and deal with sin in a way that is so incredibly cruel and sadistic that it violates his own character.
Sharon, I would be curious to hear your explanations on why you feel God would see fit to provide new and perfect imortal bodies that can never die to those he so loves before inflicting such eternal torment upon them forever- and how this fits with Gods character of love. Id be really curious to hear your reasoning behind that.
Inhimdependent_LDS asked:
I posted the Romans 9 passage in an effort to help people recognize that God says He does what He does and we, His creatures, have no basis upon which to find fault with His actions. Whether one believes in the LDS god or in the God evangelicals find revealed in the Bible, we must accept Him for who and what He says He is. He says He is love. He says He is holy. He says He punishes sinners with eternal punishment. Who is man to question Almighty God’s motives and decisions? That is the only point I am trying to make.
Now, the conversation has gone far afield from the original topic. This seems like a good place to draw it to a close.