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Archive for September, 2007

A Call for Blake Ostler to Support A Specific Historical Claim about the Nicene Creed (Updated)

The modern myth and caricature that surround the First Council of Nicaea never cease to amaze me.

We don’t usually do this, but sometimes something so shocking and so specific is said that the person who said it needs to stop what they’re doing and back it up. As a friend noted recently, when something said is huge but isn’t common knowledge a person has a duty to readers (for the sake of edifying, constructive conversation) to make a substantive, supporting citation. Particularly with specific historical claims.

On September 8th Blake Ostler wrote:

“What I don’t accept about the Nicene creed is the right to kill approximately 100,000 Arians within a few days because they disagreed. It was really a political document between rival political factions with the Emperor Constantine taking advantage of the conflict to kill his rivals.” (>>)

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Excommunicated for Apostasy

Last Sunday (23 September 2007) the Phoenix East Valley Tribune ran a story about Lyndon Lamborn’s excommunication from the LDS Church. The article begins,

“Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today.

“’I thought if he could go public, so can I,’ said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him ‘thousands of reasons the church can’t be what it claims to be.’”

In Sacred LonelinessMr. Lamborn has been an active Mormon. He served a mission. He was elders quorum president 4 times and has held several other callings in his local ward. But in 2005 a co-worker asked him a question about Joseph Smith’s wives, which sent Mr. Lamborn on a quest to research LDS history.

According to the article, the historical research “led [Mr. Lamborn] to question many church teachings.” He went to his stake president with questions, “but received no definitive answers.”

“’I was planning to leave the church quietly, but was denied that opportunity, presumably because I was speaking openly to other members about my findings and (was) writing things down,’ Lamborn said.

“Lamborn has compiled his research into a lengthy testament called, ‘Search for Truth 6/07,’ in which he states: ‘There comes a time in the life of many church members when the desire to know the truth about the church becomes stronger than the desire to believe the church is true.’”

In another online article that appeared on Sunday, Scott Tracy wrote “Why they leave” for the Utah State Valley College newspaper. In this opinion piece Mr. Tracy begins,

“Recently on a former-Mormons website, a poll was taken asking the question ‘Why did you leave?’ and the results might be somewhat shocking to most current members of the church.

“Kevin Whitaker, in his recent article on postmormon.org expressed the view that most members who leave the church are sinners, offended, or weak in the faith. This, while may be true for some, fails to cover the reasons that most people leave the faith, and reflects the most common misunderstanding between members of the LDS faith and their former Mormon counterparts…

“The number one reason listed by people who participated in the poll was ‘I found out about Mormon history’. In fact, this was the number one response at 67 percent and might be shocking to most faithful LDS.”

This certainly held true in Mr. Lamborn’s case. It also held true for his friends and family. The East Valley Tribune said,

“[Mr. Lamborn] said he learned that his five brothers ‘were doing the same research and arriving at the same conclusions’ and doubts, he said. The same was true for his best friend since childhood.”

Some might easily dismiss historical issues as unimportant in determining the truth of an organization; history isn’t doctrine and everyone has skeletons in the closet. I suggest that an important issue here is not necessarily the actual history, but rather the dishonesty and manipulation involved in covering up or changing history — keeping the truth hidden in order to deceive.

Wizard ExposedThis makes me think of the Wizard of Oz behind his curtain. He ruled his world by convincing everyone that he was all-powerful; if they knew he was really a mind-mannered man who couldn’t find his own way home, he would lose his position and power.

I believe Mormonism is like that. It succeeds on faith-building historical tales of revelation, persecution and sacrifice. It’s a beautiful and inspiring façade, but don’t look behind the curtain. For if the curtain is pulled back, it becomes clear that the LDS Church has been engaged in some serious commandment-breaking about and throughout its entire history. Then the question arises, “Could this be ‘the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased”? (D&C 1:30)

A majority of former Mormons conclude no, it couldn’t be.


Discussion Questions:• What role did history have in your disillusionment with the Mormon Church?

• Why is it important to give a “warts and all” account of history, if at all?

• Can Mormonism be divorced from its history like other religions can? Is there something particular about Mormonism that makes its history more crucial than church history would be for evangelical Christianity?


At postmormon.org Mr. Lamborn has made this generous offer:

If any of you would like to read my summary of searching for truth, e-mail me at lclamborn58[at]yahoo.com and I will be happy to e-mail you a copy… There is MUCH more to tell, as most of you know. Polyandry and Helen Mar Kimball are only the tip of the proverbial iceberg

Are You “Scared” or “Weak-Minded” Over the Father Having a Father? Joseph Smith Has a Word For You

On June 16, 1844—just 11 days before his death—Joseph preached just east of the Nauvoo temple in a grove probably very near (or even the same place as?) where he gave his sermon at King Follett’s funeral. Many people think of the King Follett Discourse as Joseph Smith’s last great sermon, and indeed, some have even mistaken it as his very last sermon. But it certainly was not his last.

I’d encourage everyone to become familiar with Joseph Smith’s sermon on the Godhead and the plurality of gods as printed in History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 473-479. Ask yourself: What would Joseph Smith have said on Larry King?

“If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.” (>>)

Joseph went on to write:

“I want to stick to my text, to show that when men open their lips against these truths they do not injure me, but injure themselves. To the law and to the testimony, for these principles are poured out all over the scriptures. When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.”

Discussion Questions

  • Joseph Smith the Bible is “full” of the doctrine the Father having a Father. What Biblical support is there for this doctrine, if any? What does the Bible say that would preclude this from even being a possibility?
  • What would Joseph Smith say on Larry King in contrast to Gordon B. Hinckley?
  • Do you think Joseph Smith thought he was merely speculating?
  • Why do you think the notion of the Father having a Father is so offensive to Christians? Most importantly, do you think it is offensive to God himself?

The Habit of Clear-Thinking People

A regular participant in the comment section of Mormon Coffee recently took issue with some of the moderating that takes place here. She wrote,

i realize you try your best to control the tone on this site-as one-sided as it may be. that is completely your prerogative, obviously.

with that said, don’t be surprised at the response you get to your queries and accusations—it is merely the fruit of the tree you planted.

so bleep what people say, sure…but please don’t be surprised that you fostered such a reaction to begin with. if you desire a cute little club that mormon-haters can join, log in, and chat it up with all their other mormon-hating friends..then do that…but don’t allow us to post under false pretense that we are moderated under the same rules as the true “Christians”–then bleep what we say like we’re a bunch of swearing inbreds. just a thought :)

I’d like to try to clarify the part of our Comment Policy that results in the moderators “bleeping” some statements.

Listen UpEditors and commenters alike at Mormon Coffee do ask hard questions. Obviously, the doctrinal convictions of the blog posters from MRM are at odds with those of our Mormon visitors. We invite people on all sides of any given issue to argue their convictions. We encourage that discourse. This is the “fruit” we hope to see from the tree we’ve planted.

What we do not want to see — and what we moderate against — is disrespectful comments about the people who post and comment here, rather than discussion of the issues. These are the remarks that get “bleeped.”

Consider these two fictional examples of comments:

  • “I disagree with your conclusion. I don’t think it makes any sense, and here’s why.”

This is a criticism directed at an argument; it is welcome on Mormon Coffee.

  • “Jason, you are an idiot. You only talk about this because you hate Mormons. You should be ashamed of yourself.”

This is a criticism directed at a person; it is not part of a respectful dialog.

Christian author and speaker Greg Koukl has pointed out,

“The minute one is labeled mean-spirited simply for raising an opposing view, it cuts off debate. This simply isn’t fair. We avoid what may be a legitimate discussion by simply calling names. Worse, we compromise our ability to know the truth.

“It’s absolutely imperative that we not silence dissent in this way. We ought to learn how to argue fairly, reasonably, and graciously. We need to cultivate the ability to disagree with civility and not take opposition personally. We also must have the grace to allow our own views to be challenged with evidence, reasoning, and Scripture. Those who refuse to dispute have a very poor chance of growing in truth.”

Discussion Among FriendsThat is one goal of conversation over Mormon Coffee — that we disagree (if we must) with civility. In order to foster an environment of courteous (safe) discourse, the moderators “bleep” personal criticisms directed at others who participate on the blog.

Greg Koukl gives sound advice for an appropriate way to deal with challenges to our faith. I leave you with his counsel:

“Read critically. Reflect on the claims. Check the background information. Assess the argument. Find the truth. That’s the habit of clear-thinking [people].”

When Regret is Not a Synonym with Apology

Memorial Crosses

Last Tuesday I attended the memorial service commemorating the 150th anniversary of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The day before, I had the pleasure of meeting several of the descendants of the Fancher family in Cedar City. Suffice it to say that the memorial service was a somber occasion. Short speeches were given by both descendants of the victims and the perpetrators. Several times the word forgiveness was invoked.

The service began when relatives and friends carrying large pennants walked behind a lone covered wagon down the gravel road from Dan Sill Hill to the rock cairn memorial built in 1999. Each pennant contained the last name of a family whose lives ended on this very spot. A few days prior, another service was held at the site. Here, participants had hung white crosses on the metal fence surrounding the memorial. Larger crosses represented the adults that were killed, while smaller crosses represented the many children who died that day.

Memorial PennantsI had just returned to Salt Lake City from the memorial service, when I read the headline of an article by Carrie A. Moore in the online edition of the Deseret News. It read, “Church issues apology for massacre.” Another article written in the Salt Lake Tribune by Jessica Ravitz, was headlined, “LDS Church apologizes for Mountain Meadows Massacre.” Moore wrote that Mormon Apostle Henry B. Eyring issued “a long-awaited apology today for the massacre of an immigrant wagon train by local church members 150 years ago in southwestern Utah.” Ravitz echoed s similar conclusion when she wrote, that a Mormon Apostle, “apologized for the church’s role.” He did? I was sitting barely ten rows away from Mr. Eyring when he spoke – how did I miss that? Several speakers received standing ovations for the comments they made, but not a single person stood to applaud Eyring’s comments. Given the fact that descendants have been longing for such an announcement, I can’t imagine Mr. Eyring receiving anything less if he did, in fact, express such a message.

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Instead, we heard Mr. Eyring “express profound regret” for the “undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims and their relatives.” We heard Mr. Eyring offer a “separate expression of regret” to the Paiute people “who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre.”

He also made it clear that the “responsibility for the massacre lies with local leaders” of the LDS Church. In his short speech he also put in a plug for the new book being written by three LDS historians that is due to be published by Oxford Press. No doubt this book, like Mr. Eyring’s speech, will offer nothing really new about this tragic event. Why should the Church assume that this will be the definitive work on this subject? Why should the public readily accept the statements of these three Church employees, when for the past 150 years the LDS Church has shown itself to be anything but honest and cooperative when it comes to the MMM? Why not at least let qualified historians have access to all of the documents the LDS Church now keeps in its archives?

Reader responses to both the Deseret News, and Salt Lake Tribune articles were incredibly mixed. Some Mormons expressed their contempt at the descendants for making this an annual issue purposely designed to embarrass their Church. Others expressed profound joy that their Church had finally apologized to the families. A few admitted they were indeed shocked, given the fact that the LDS Church never apologizes for anything.

Having been there and hearing Eyring myself, my shock was limited primarily to the conclusion drawn by the two journalists. Regret is not always synonymous with apology, and while Eyring did appear to be emotionally moved by the circumstances, he never spoke those simple words that the descendants have wanted to hear.

Mountain Meadows Massacre 150 YearsNo doubt many of those Latter-day Saints who rejoiced when they read the headlines were utterly disappointed to later hear that the two journalists had drawn an incorrect conclusion. In an Associated Press article that has been circulating in several major media outlets, it stated quite clearly that “Church leaders were adamant that the statement should not be construed as an apology.” Said LDS Church spokesman, Mark Tuttle, “We don’t use the word ‘apology.’ We used ‘profound regret.’”

Such a comment speaks volumes. It not only confirms in the minds of many that the leadership continues to display a type of infallible arrogance, but it will also be understood by many that the LDS Church is not sorry for what happened under Brigham Young’s watch. For me that is the big issue. I fully understand that there is no one currently living who was personally responsible for the MMM. However, there is a corporate responsibility that the LDS leadership wants to continue to deny. Brigham Young was the “prophet, seer, and revelator” of the LDS Church and he was also the ultimate head of every LDS militia in the Utah territory. True leaders understand that when things go wrong, the “buck” has to stop somewhere, and in a real world it usually stops with those who are in charge. The LDS Church must certainly understand this concept given the huge monetary settlements paid by the LDS Church regarding child abuse cases perpetrated by Church personnel.

Furthermore, are we really expected to believe that Young’s fiery reformation speeches on blood atonement and absolute loyalty to the leadership had no affect on those same leaders? It is difficult for me to believe that his sermons were given with the intent that they should be understood only as “revival rhetoric.” Respected historian Juanita Brooks noted on page 219 of her book, The Mountain Meadows Massacre,

“while Young and George A. Smith, the church authorities chiefly responsible, did not specifically order the massacre, they did preach sermons and set up social conditions which made it possible.”

Young may not have pulled a trigger or bludgeoned a small child with a gun butt, but I find it very difficult to side with Mormons who insist that he did not play any role in this awful event.

One last thought. Mr. Eyring, towards the end of his speech, stated, that “divine justice will impose appropriate punishment” for those who carried out the massacre. Does appropriate punishment await John D. Lee, the only man who paid for this crime with his life on March 23, 1877? Lee was ex-communicated in 1870, but in 1961 the LDS Church First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve reinstated Lee’s membership and temple blessings. I could be wrong, but I tend to think that most Mormons would see this as a reward, not a punishment.

Men on a Mission

Men on a Mission AuditionA Business Wire press release dated September 10, 2007 announces an interesting new product that its creators hope will become the “must-have stocking stuffer of the year.” Mormons Exposed is producing and selling

“a steamy 2008 calendar featuring twelve handsome returned Mormon missionaries who have dared to pose bare-chested in the first-ever Men on a Mission calendar. Usually seen riding their bicycles and preaching door-to-door, the sexy new calendar celebrates the great looks, beautiful bodies and amazing stories of service of these deeply spiritual men.”

Returned LDS missionary Chad Hardy is the calendar’s producer and co-founder of Mormons Exposed. Having been raised in a sixth generation Mormon family and having lived in Utah for eight years, Mr. Hardy understands Mormonism and Mormons. Therefore, according to the FAQ page on the Mormons Exposed web site,

“The fact that twelve young returned missionaries are posing shirtless will certainly raise eyebrows, but may also help to sort out some common misconceptions about Mormons…

“Since the veil surrounding the Mormon religion can be difficult for outsiders to permeate or to understand, the humor of the calendar is intended to help debunk common misperceptions and dispel some myths about the Mormon religion — encouraging people of every belief system to be more tolerant of one another.”

The Mormons Exposed web site contains a couple of myth-busting options. One is a Men on a Mission fan club page, which asks,

“Do you have a secret missionary crush? Or do you think one of our guys is a total stud? Simply click on the box of your favorite missionary, enter your email address and click ‘vote.’ Once you vote, you’ll start receiving our newsletter and updates on your favorite guy! (Your information will be kept strictly confidential.)”

Another is an audition page which allows men (or women?) to fill out an application for consideration to be included in a future calendar:

“We are looking for fit, great-looking returned missionaries with amazing stories to tell for the 2009 calendar. Only 12 finalists will be chosen. Do you have what it takes?”

I have to admit, the Men on a Mission calendar certainly challenges some of my perceptions regarding Mormon missionaries. I’ll bet it challenges the perceptions of the folks at the Church Administration Building, too. But an aspect of it seems like a worthy endeavor; the calendar will generate money for charities (a portion of the proceeds will be donated), and will put a fresh, lighthearted face on misperceived-as-stodgy Mormonism. These are things LDS Church leadership would certainly support.

Hey — I wonder if all the members of the Quorum of the Twelve are returned missionaries…

Update July 14, 2008: On July 13, 2008 Chad Hardy, creator of the calendar, appeared before a Church disciplinary council. After Mr. Hardy explained his vision and purpose for the Men on a Mission calendars, the Church council ‘’still felt the calendar is inappropriate and not the image that the church wants to have,” Mr. Hardy said. After 45 minutes of deliberation, the LDS Church council decided to excommunicate Mr. Hardy.

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