Comments on: Latter-day Credo http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/ It's forbidden, but it's good! Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:54:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: HankSaint http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5815 HankSaint Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:29:58 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5815 Woenigma says, "I DO believe my parents; they have always been awesome people. I have no reason not to believe you. Again there is recourse to their plight and as Jacob stated, trying moving up the ladder, every member has the right to discuss a wrong with General Authorities. If they cherish their membership as much as I do mine, I would fight with every ounce to redeem myself is wronged. Since I don't know the full story, I can not stand in judgement. But just from my 50 yrs of membership, this is a first for me, to see the way your parents were treated. Woenigma says, “I DO believe my parents; they have always been awesome people.

I have no reason not to believe you. Again there is recourse to their plight and as Jacob stated, trying moving up the ladder, every member has the right to discuss a wrong with General Authorities.
If they cherish their membership as much as I do mine, I would fight with every ounce to redeem myself is wronged. Since I don’t know the full story, I can not stand in judgement. But just from my 50 yrs of membership, this is a first for me, to see the way your parents were treated.

]]> By: Jacob5 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5810 Jacob5 Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:32:10 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5810 Woenigma, I find the situation quite heroing. I think that there might be many out there who might have reacted differently than you. I have never been faced with such an experience. I have heard a story about a member of my church who had been seen with non-member friends and when those who saw them drink using cups similar to those of his friends, they assumed that he had been drinking alcohol. They immediately reported this to the bishop, and, when the bishop had talked about this to the member, he said that he honestly was not drinking alcohol. The bishop did believe him, but the others who saw him were adamant about what they thought was true. This later lead to meeting with other church leaders in the area. Now the one member wasn't excommunicated, but because of the constant ruccus of the other members who saw him, he felt it better to move out of the area. Now, the situation may be a bit different, but he didn't give up on the church because the church had failed to convence the other members. If your parents were truly wronged, then they should bring it up to a higher authority. If they still maintain there to have been no serious offense take it to the next level. Don't forget the parable of the unjust judge. It is true, individuals to not make the church, and if they were wrongfully excommunicated then there may yet be another who may yet reverse a wrong committed upon another. Woenigma,
I find the situation quite heroing. I think that there might be many out there who might have reacted differently than you. I have never been faced with such an experience.
I have heard a story about a member of my church who had been seen with non-member friends and when those who saw them drink using cups similar to those of his friends, they assumed that he had been drinking alcohol. They immediately reported this to the bishop, and, when the bishop had talked about this to the member, he said that he honestly was not drinking alcohol. The bishop did believe him, but the others who saw him were adamant about what they thought was true. This later lead to meeting with other church leaders in the area. Now the one member wasn’t excommunicated, but because of the constant ruccus of the other members who saw him, he felt it better to move out of the area.
Now, the situation may be a bit different, but he didn’t give up on the church because the church had failed to convence the other members. If your parents were truly wronged, then they should bring it up to a higher authority. If they still maintain there to have been no serious offense take it to the next level. Don’t forget the parable of the unjust judge. It is true, individuals to not make the church, and if they were wrongfully excommunicated then there may yet be another who may yet reverse a wrong committed upon another.

]]> By: woenigma http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5799 woenigma Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:29:37 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5799 HankSaint, does the Church tell why people are ex'ed? I don't think they do. I DO believe my parents; they have always been awesome people. They had asked their Stake President to go to the archives, because they were not allowed entry being of the common people, to look up some of the things they questioned. Before their "court" they asked him if he found what they told him to look up. He stated he did and so much more. During their court he said NOTHING in their defense. However, people do not make the restored gospel wrong. Are you familiar with Leonard J. Arrington? HankSaint, does the Church tell why people are ex’ed? I don’t think they do. I DO believe my parents; they have always been awesome people. They had asked their Stake President to go to the archives, because they were not allowed entry being of the common people, to look up some of the things they questioned. Before their “court” they asked him if he found what they told him to look up. He stated he did and so much more. During their court he said NOTHING in their defense. However, people do not make the restored gospel wrong. Are you familiar with Leonard J. Arrington?

]]> By: HankSaint http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5791 HankSaint Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:51:57 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5791 Woenigma, why should I doubt you? what good cause would it do? If they were excommunicated than they would know why, as for what they tell others that is their privilege, but as far as I know the Church is petty closed mouth about why, and for very private and personal reason, so as not to embarrass the ex-member. So you would most likely have only one version, am I right or did the Church come out a proclaim their sins? I think you will have a hard time with that one. Peace Brother :-) Woenigma, why should I doubt you? what good cause would it do?
If they were excommunicated than they would know why, as for what they tell others that is their privilege, but as far as I know the Church is petty closed mouth about why, and for very private and personal reason, so as not to embarrass the ex-member. So you would most likely have only one version, am I right or did the Church come out a proclaim their sins? I think you will have a hard time with that one. Peace Brother :-)

]]> By: woenigma http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5783 woenigma Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:44:17 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5783 Re:Hanksaints request: My parents were excommunicated for believing the dead prophets over the living prophets. They were just asking questions about some of the sermons in the JoD and just wanted some explanations. They still have strong testimonies on the BoM and Joseph Smith but they found their questions where not welcome or tolerated in the Church. Re:Hanksaints request: My parents were excommunicated for believing the dead prophets over the living prophets. They were just asking questions about some of the sermons in the JoD and just wanted some explanations. They still have strong testimonies on the BoM and Joseph Smith but they found their questions where not welcome or tolerated in the Church.

]]> By: HankSaint http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5780 HankSaint Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:18:14 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5780 She had long been disaffected, not only from Mormonism but from religion altogether. She was a thorough-going secularist, an agnostic or an atheist, and had been, so she claimed, since her teenage years. She was every bit as disdainful of your form of Christianity as of mine. http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/UMI-1.htm Later in 1938, Brodie set out to explain what she imagined were the sources for the Book of Mormon. And this undertaking soon required her to explain Joseph Smith. She was eventually duly excommunicated for apostasy. Excommunication is generally reserved for what are seen as the most serious sins, including committing serious crimes; committing adultery, polygamy, or homosexual conduct; apostasy, teaching false doctrines, or openly criticizing LDS leaders. In most cases, excommunication is a last resort, used only after repeated warnings. A 2006 revision to the Church Handbook of Instructions states that joining another church is also an excommunicable offense, however merely attending another church does not constitute apostasy. She had long been disaffected, not only from Mormonism but from religion altogether. She was a thorough-going secularist, an agnostic or an atheist, and had been, so she claimed, since her teenage years. She was every bit as disdainful of your form of Christianity as of mine. http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/UMI-1.htm

Later in 1938, Brodie set out to explain what she imagined were the sources for the Book of Mormon. And this undertaking soon required her to explain Joseph Smith. She was eventually duly excommunicated for apostasy.

Excommunication is generally reserved for what are seen as the most serious sins, including committing serious crimes; committing adultery, polygamy, or homosexual conduct; apostasy, teaching false doctrines, or openly criticizing LDS leaders. In most cases, excommunication is a last resort, used only after repeated warnings. A 2006 revision to the Church Handbook of Instructions states that joining another church is also an excommunicable offense, however merely attending another church does not constitute apostasy.

]]> By: Jacob5 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5778 Jacob5 Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:03:12 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5778 If you don't mind HankSaint, i'd like to take this. Obidavekenobi, That is a far cry from "questioning a beleif or particular doctrine." 1. She had pretty much left the church well before any excommunication. 2. There is a big difference between what Hanksaint had said a publishing material in outright opposition to a churches beliefs. 3. She wasn't even excommunicated until about 2 years after the book was even publish well after she may have simply questioned beliefs or doctrines. Pray-tell, do you allow anyone in your church who who openly oppose your beliefs in public. Besides if we go according to what EVs may think of our church, didn't we technically do her a favor? There are times when I can claim ignorance to a certain topic or principle given by my church, but I have found by studying the scriptures and personal prayer, I was able to understand it. I didn't simply think that my misunderstanding was grounds to disbelieve my faith, but that is me and not you. It's all good. If you don’t mind HankSaint, i’d like to take this.

Obidavekenobi, That is a far cry from “questioning a beleif or particular doctrine.”
1. She had pretty much left the church well before any excommunication.
2. There is a big difference between what Hanksaint had said a publishing material in outright opposition to a churches beliefs.
3. She wasn’t even excommunicated until about 2 years after the book was even publish well after she may have simply questioned beliefs or doctrines.
Pray-tell, do you allow anyone in your church who who openly oppose your beliefs in public. Besides if we go according to what EVs may think of our church, didn’t we technically do her a favor?
There are times when I can claim ignorance to a certain topic or principle given by my church, but I have found by studying the scriptures and personal prayer, I was able to understand it. I didn’t simply think that my misunderstanding was grounds to disbelieve my faith, but that is me and not you. It’s all good.

]]> By: obidavekenobi http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5759 obidavekenobi Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:03:58 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5759 Still waiting for Mr. HankSaint's response to this post... In Re: HankSaint’s request… “I would ask you to document any case of one being excommunicated for questioning a belief or particular doctrine. You won’t be able too (sic), so how about a retraction of your miss(sic)-statement. :-)” How about Fawn McKay Brodie? Ms. Brodie certainly questioned the beliefs and doctrines of the LDS church, and in a most public way. Still waiting for Mr. HankSaint’s response to this post…

In Re: HankSaint’s request…

“I would ask you to document any case of one being excommunicated for questioning a belief or particular doctrine.
You won’t be able too (sic), so how about a retraction of your miss(sic)-statement. :-) ”

How about Fawn McKay Brodie? Ms. Brodie certainly questioned the beliefs and doctrines of the LDS church, and in a most public way.

]]> By: amanda http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5757 amanda Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:05:00 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5757 Rick "God says He puts His word above His name, Do you really think He would allow is Word to get lost?" No, so when early Christians lost their way, He restored HIS word through a separate people- The Book of Mormon was translated- :) I like how you refer to the bible like it is yours though, we believe the bible as well Rick, it isn't owned by evangelicals. AT best, the new testament is a translation from copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of alleged originals...and there are PLENTY of scholars who back my position...some who use to be evangelicals ;) So anyone's belief in the NT has to have faith, not proof of its' divinity. Evidence in scholarly circles would completely alarm you, Rick. You should read more about early Christianity from these unbiased sources. I know you like to read, too. Rick

“God says He puts His word above His name, Do you really think He would allow is Word to get lost?”

No, so when early Christians lost their way, He restored HIS word through a separate people- The Book of Mormon was translated- :)

I like how you refer to the bible like it is yours though, we believe the bible as well Rick, it isn’t owned by evangelicals.

AT best, the new testament is a translation from copies of copies of copies of copies of copies of alleged originals…and there are PLENTY of scholars who back my position…some who use to be evangelicals ;) So anyone’s belief in the NT has to have faith, not proof of its’ divinity. Evidence in scholarly circles would completely alarm you, Rick. You should read more about early Christianity from these unbiased sources. I know you like to read, too.

]]> By: Rick B http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/comment-page-1/#comment-5756 Rick B Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:46:23 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/latter-day-credo/#comment-5756 Amanda said <blockquote>“Can any of our Mormon friends out there in cyberspace prove that what they have is the original?” We have, to ourselves. That’s why we believe it. Can we prove it to you? No. It is not my job to PROVE, it is my job to testify. Can YOU prove YOU have original scripture intended by NT apostles? No. </blockquote> Their is plenty of Evidence the Bible is real, while their is zero evidence the BoM is real. Psalm 138, God says He puts His word above His name, Do you really think He would allow is Word to get lost? The BoM has over 4,000 changes and some are serious doctrinal changes. We have the Dead Sea scrolls to prove the Scriptures yet no golden plates or reformed Egyption. I said it before, Chuck Missler read the Account of Paul being Shipwrecked, used the Bible as his guide and found the two anchors they threw over board. then back in may 14th 1948 the Jews after 2,000 came back into their land Just as the Bible said. No other nation lasted over 300 years before they were lost and forgotten, yet the Jews did. Then we read in the Book of John, <blockquote>John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.</blockquote> This is not taught in the BoM. then you have the God commanded "Corrected" Version of the Bible, AKA J.S.T. Which you still quote more from the "Corrputed" version of the Bible, than using the "Corrected" Version. Rick b Amanda said
“Can any of our Mormon friends out there in cyberspace prove that what they have is the original?”

We have, to ourselves. That’s why we believe it. Can we prove it to you? No. It is not my job to PROVE, it is my job to testify. Can YOU prove YOU have original scripture intended by NT apostles? No.

Their is plenty of Evidence the Bible is real, while their is zero evidence the BoM is real.

Psalm 138, God says He puts His word above His name, Do you really think He would allow is Word to get lost?

The BoM has over 4,000 changes and some are serious doctrinal changes. We have the Dead Sea scrolls to prove the Scriptures yet no golden plates or reformed Egyption.

I said it before, Chuck Missler read the Account of Paul being Shipwrecked, used the Bible as his guide and found the two anchors they threw over board. then back in may 14th 1948 the Jews after 2,000 came back into their land Just as the Bible said. No other nation lasted over 300 years before they were lost and forgotten, yet the Jews did.

Then we read in the Book of John,

John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This is not taught in the BoM. then you have the God commanded “Corrected” Version of the Bible, AKA J.S.T. Which you still quote more from the “Corrputed” version of the Bible, than using the “Corrected” Version. Rick b

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