Comments on: Proving Mormonism is Christian http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/ It's forbidden, but it's good! Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:41:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Sharon Lindbloom http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5685 Sharon Lindbloom Wed, 23 Jan 2008 17:11:29 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5685 We're closing comments on this thread, folks. We seem to have strayed from the discussion topic about 80 comments ago... :) We’re closing comments on this thread, folks. We seem to have strayed from the discussion topic about 80 comments ago… :)

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5684 falcon Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:18:52 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5684 Jacob5, I know you are meaning your points to be obvious, but it would help if you could conclude them by saying "therefore........" Your attempts to show inconsistencies in the Bible text suggests to me that you want to conclude that "therefore the BoM is true." So your reasoning would go; the Bible has inconsistencies in the text so it's really no better than the BoM which has had at least 4,000 changes to it since it was first published and for which there is no evidence that it is a historically accurate document. Jacob5,
I know you are meaning your points to be obvious, but it would help if you could conclude them by saying “therefore……..” Your attempts to show inconsistencies in the Bible text suggests to me that you want to conclude that “therefore the BoM is true.” So your reasoning would go; the Bible has inconsistencies in the text so it’s really no better than the BoM which has had at least 4,000 changes to it since it was first published and for which there is no evidence that it is a historically accurate document.

]]> By: Lautensack http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5683 Lautensack Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:39:48 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5683 Oh Jacob5, I was wondering when someone would use this argument as it hasn't been used in a while. I will refer to both the verse you were trying to cite, Deut 14:11-18 and it's parallel Lev 11:13-19. Now at a simple glance of the KJV one would see that both passages call bats birds, either indirectly as in the Deuteronomy or directly as in the Leviticus passage. Case closed the Bible is a lie, or at least in error right? I hope you don't mind but I am going to go to the Hebrew being used in these verses, and please note the word translated bird in Deut 14:11 and Lev 11:13 are not the same word, however the word for bat in Deut 14:18 and Lev 11:19 is the same, and does indeed mean bat so forgive me I do not try to make my case that God is indeed speaking about a mammal. Now the word for "bird" being used in Deut 14 is tzphur (sade pe vav rosh) meaning little bird, thus perhaps we should throw the entire list out because it mentions many birds which are not little. However if we allow scripture to interpret scripture, fun right, we see this same word used in Deut 4:17, this time translated "fowl" and giving a fowl, a bird, the description of anything with wings that flieth in the air, according to this description a bat clearly fits. Now as for Lev 11:13-19 the word for fowls used there is owph (ayan vav pe) and this more clearly includes the bat as a "fowl" (translated bird in many modern translations). This word is also attributed to insects though, as it is the same word being used later in the chapter of this Book when referring to "flying creeping things." (v 21,23) Thus clearly a bat can be grouped in the "abomination among the fowls," and "they which ye shall not eat." And I do not believe I am denying either the Bible or the evidence when I make that statement. Any who point to this to invalidate the Bible know little of the Hebrew language, and understand next to nothing of hermeneutics. Don't believe me? Look it up in the original languages. Lautensack Oh Jacob5, I was wondering when someone would use this argument as it hasn’t been used in a while. I will refer to both the verse you were trying to cite, Deut 14:11-18 and it’s parallel Lev 11:13-19. Now at a simple glance of the KJV one would see that both passages call bats birds, either indirectly as in the Deuteronomy or directly as in the Leviticus passage. Case closed the Bible is a lie, or at least in error right? I hope you don’t mind but I am going to go to the Hebrew being used in these verses, and please note the word translated bird in Deut 14:11 and Lev 11:13 are not the same word, however the word for bat in Deut 14:18 and Lev 11:19 is the same, and does indeed mean bat so forgive me I do not try to make my case that God is indeed speaking about a mammal.
Now the word for “bird” being used in Deut 14 is tzphur (sade pe vav rosh) meaning little bird, thus perhaps we should throw the entire list out because it mentions many birds which are not little. However if we allow scripture to interpret scripture, fun right, we see this same word used in Deut 4:17, this time translated “fowl” and giving a fowl, a bird, the description of anything with wings that flieth in the air, according to this description a bat clearly fits.
Now as for Lev 11:13-19 the word for fowls used there is owph (ayan vav pe) and this more clearly includes the bat as a “fowl” (translated bird in many modern translations). This word is also attributed to insects though, as it is the same word being used later in the chapter of this Book when referring to “flying creeping things.” (v 21,23) Thus clearly a bat can be grouped in the “abomination among the fowls,” and “they which ye shall not eat.” And I do not believe I am denying either the Bible or the evidence when I make that statement. Any who point to this to invalidate the Bible know little of the Hebrew language, and understand next to nothing of hermeneutics. Don’t believe me? Look it up in the original languages.
Lautensack

]]> By: Jacob5 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5682 Jacob5 Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:26:32 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5682 Well, Danielle, thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if it was kind of a trend. I can understand how you may feel about the control situation. I looked many times at the ideas I was presenting to people who were investigating our church. We were telling them that in order to become a faithful member they had to attend meetings for at least three hours every Sunday (I say at least, because I have spent nearly the whole day including leadership meetings, don't even get me started on that one). If they smoke or drink alcohol, tea, or coffee, they must quite. If there were those in relationships with others that were not deemed appropriate, they should get out of that. They should pay 10% of their income to the church as well as make donations for other charitable programs (the latter part is not necessarily set as important as tithing itself). And that, for the most part is the bare minimum, when you add in all the commandments we are to follow, it might even say it is unbearable. Mind you I do not say this sarcastically. But beyond all that, I also find the level of control to be a bare minimum. Of course the leaders are concerned for members of our church. I cannot speak of every individual leader of our church, but I would think in general that they do care about the members, and the may feel that they should try their best to maintain the activity of that member is well. Aside from that, unless you are under the direct supervision of your leaders as well, I don't feel there is any degree of control that is alluded to. I find to have a great deal of liberty in my life as far as my choices are concerned. I think that Morgan Freeman said it best "I only have to stay black and die." (paraphrasing obviously) We don't have to do anything. Have-to's only come into play when we want something. If you want money, you have to do something for it. If you want to be a lawyer, you have to study the proper courses and take a test. Well, Danielle, thanks for the heads up. I was wondering if it was kind of a trend.
I can understand how you may feel about the control situation. I looked many times at the ideas I was presenting to people who were investigating our church. We were telling them that in order to become a faithful member they had to attend meetings for at least three hours every Sunday (I say at least, because I have spent nearly the whole day including leadership meetings, don’t even get me started on that one). If they smoke or drink alcohol, tea, or coffee, they must quite. If there were those in relationships with others that were not deemed appropriate, they should get out of that. They should pay 10% of their income to the church as well as make donations for other charitable programs (the latter part is not necessarily set as important as tithing itself). And that, for the most part is the bare minimum, when you add in all the commandments we are to follow, it might even say it is unbearable. Mind you I do not say this sarcastically.
But beyond all that, I also find the level of control to be a bare minimum. Of course the leaders are concerned for members of our church. I cannot speak of every individual leader of our church, but I would think in general that they do care about the members, and the may feel that they should try their best to maintain the activity of that member is well. Aside from that, unless you are under the direct supervision of your leaders as well, I don’t feel there is any degree of control that is alluded to. I find to have a great deal of liberty in my life as far as my choices are concerned.
I think that Morgan Freeman said it best “I only have to stay black and die.” (paraphrasing obviously) We don’t have to do anything. Have-to’s only come into play when we want something. If you want money, you have to do something for it. If you want to be a lawyer, you have to study the proper courses and take a test.

]]> By: Danielle http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5679 Danielle Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:36:28 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5679 Jacob... I think that drinking coffee when I left the church was a way of saying "I can make my own decisions". I also know a lot of LDS that drink stuff they shouldn't. But for me...... I just wanted to be me. Not some robot. I hope that makes sense. Again Amanda, This is what you said to me: "govern your life the way you chose- for it is you who will experience the fruits (consequences) of this decision, and answer for it at the last day" then you said to me: “I don’t think you understood what I was trying to say" I did totally understand what you said. Hello everyone!! Good evening. The most important thing is to know God. How can you know God if you are reading from a book that does not even know the God of the Holy Bible? It does not make sense. Danielle Jacob…

I think that drinking coffee when I left the church was a way of saying “I can make my own decisions”. I also know a lot of LDS that drink stuff they shouldn’t. But for me…… I just wanted to be me. Not some robot. I hope that makes sense.

Again Amanda,

This is what you said to me:
“govern your life the way you chose- for it is you who will experience the fruits (consequences) of this decision, and answer for it at the last day”
then you said to me:
“I don’t think you understood what I was trying to say”

I did totally understand what you said.

Hello everyone!! Good evening.

The most important thing is to know God. How can you know God if you are reading from a book that does not even know the God of the Holy Bible? It does not make sense.

Danielle

]]> By: mikeb http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5677 mikeb Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:52:49 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5677 Jacob The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment".  There is no second chance. I think this is why we as Bible believing Christians are trying to share this gospel message of the true Christ. If you read Hebrews chapter 9 it states Christ is our high priest, that he appears before God for us. That there is a new covenant through Christ and not of dead works.  We're really discussing the matter of salvation. The LDS teach that you can lose your salvation by leaving the church but, with Jesus Christ of the Bible you can not lose it by things that we do. Just like there is nothing we can do to gain our salvation. If a person truly accepts Christ as their savior and God knows their heart then their salvation is secure.  I hope you look at Jesus as the Bible shows him...look at the differences and ask God to reveal the truth to you. Isn't that what we all want anyway? Jacob The Bible says in Hebrews 9:27 “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment”.  There is no second chance. I think this is why we as Bible believing Christians are trying to share this gospel message of the true Christ. If you read Hebrews chapter 9 it states Christ is our high priest, that he appears before God for us. That there is a new covenant through Christ and not of dead works.  We’re really discussing the matter of salvation. The LDS teach that you can lose your salvation by leaving the church but, with Jesus Christ of the Bible you can not lose it by things that we do. Just like there is nothing we can do to gain our salvation. If a person truly accepts Christ as their savior and God knows their heart then their salvation is secure.  I hope you look at Jesus as the Bible shows him…look at the differences and ask God to reveal the truth to you. Isn’t that what we all want anyway?

]]> By: Jacob5 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5676 Jacob5 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:49:07 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5676 The second is, is drinking coffee a sort of right of passage for those who chose to leave our church? I noticed a few people said that. I know of a few who have done that without leaving the church. Sorry, one more question. For those EV's out there I was wondering what your position is of those who may leave your circle to become and LDS and they eventually die in that faith. What is the state of their soul. As for members of our faith, we state that everyone will get to hear the complete gospel whether in this life or the next, and they will get the opportunity to accept it or not. And then, even for those who do not accept it, they still get to live in a state of rest from the worries of life after the judgement. The second is, is drinking coffee a sort of right of passage for those who chose to leave our church? I noticed a few people said that. I know of a few who have done that without leaving the church.
Sorry, one more question. For those EV’s out there I was wondering what your position is of those who may leave your circle to become and LDS and they eventually die in that faith. What is the state of their soul.
As for members of our faith, we state that everyone will get to hear the complete gospel whether in this life or the next, and they will get the opportunity to accept it or not. And then, even for those who do not accept it, they still get to live in a state of rest from the worries of life after the judgement.

]]> By: Jacob5 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5675 Jacob5 Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:44:12 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5675 I have two questions. First, about the purity of Bible. In the Book of Deuteronomy chapter 14 Moses gives a list of birds (v. 7) and among the list is mentions "bats". So, either one of two things are true, either Moses made a falsehood or he was mistranslated. In which case you can make one of three choices to proceed with. 1. Reject Moses and the Bible, and write anti-Biblical essays to lead as many people as possible away from Bible. 2. Rejoice that God has now revealed more complete information, through the medium of science, that can help us better understand details of our world and of the Biblical record. 3. Demand that secular science no longer be taught in schools, since we know from the Bible that bats are birds. End of story. I got this from this web page in case anyone cares to see. http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml It is interesting that since things don't line up exactly with LDS scriptures, according to some, it is deemed completely false. Members of the LDS faith have learned that there are some inconsistencees in the Bible, yet we are still able to find out the understanding of the scriptures, how you may ask, by our other scriptures. The New Testament discusses baptism, yet it has for some reason been deemed an unnecessary ordinance. How do LDS understand its importance, through the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and modern prophets. The New Testament talks about following commandments, yet the importance of that practice is pushed to the wayside. Again LDS members learn from other scriptures that it is important. Some of what we deem to be the basic principles are brought into ambiquity by those who rely solely on the Bible. And if anyone cares to know the deep etymology of "testament" it is "third person, disinterested witness", got from the online etymology dictionary. A member of our church found this out when he was wondering why our leaders chose, "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" as the subtitle. I have two questions. First, about the purity of Bible. In the Book of Deuteronomy chapter 14 Moses gives a list of birds (v. 7) and among the list is mentions “bats”. So, either one of two things are true, either Moses made a falsehood or he was mistranslated. In which case you can make one of three choices to proceed with.
1. Reject Moses and the Bible, and write anti-Biblical essays to lead as many people as possible away from Bible.
2. Rejoice that God has now revealed more complete information, through the medium of science, that can help us better understand details of our world and of the Biblical record.
3. Demand that secular science no longer be taught in schools, since we know from the Bible that bats are birds. End of story.
I got this from this web page in case anyone cares to see.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml
It is interesting that since things don’t line up exactly with LDS scriptures, according to some, it is deemed completely false. Members of the LDS faith have learned that there are some inconsistencees in the Bible, yet we are still able to find out the understanding of the scriptures, how you may ask, by our other scriptures. The New Testament discusses baptism, yet it has for some reason been deemed an unnecessary ordinance. How do LDS understand its importance, through the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and modern prophets. The New Testament talks about following commandments, yet the importance of that practice is pushed to the wayside. Again LDS members learn from other scriptures that it is important. Some of what we deem to be the basic principles are brought into ambiquity by those who rely solely on the Bible. And if anyone cares to know the deep etymology of “testament” it is “third person, disinterested witness”, got from the online etymology dictionary. A member of our church found this out when he was wondering why our leaders chose, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” as the subtitle.

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5674 falcon Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:07:49 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5674 Amanda, <font color="red">[Comment trimmed.]</font> Would you please stick to the substance of the arguments and refrain from your rather immature personal attacks. <font color="red">[More trimming. Let's play nice, kids.]</font> Amanda,
[Comment trimmed.] Would you please stick to the substance of the arguments and refrain from your rather immature personal attacks.

[More trimming. Let's play nice, kids.]

]]> By: Arthur Sido http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/comment-page-2/#comment-5673 Arthur Sido Tue, 22 Jan 2008 23:04:06 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/01/proving-mormonism-is-christian/#comment-5673 Amanda, those kind of comments are indeed designed as a dire warning for leaving the mormon church. When I left, the bishop called my wife to try to discuss with her the consequences of leaving mormonism. We got an anonymous letter with what can best be described as an "anti-anti-mormon" book designed to scare those who would leave by condemning them to outer darkness. Don't fear the opinions of men, but fear the Lord and in that you will find wisdom. There were two things that were spiritually liberating when we left, drinking my first cup of coffee and getting the letter from Salt Lake revoking our mormon baptism and temple "blessings". Amanda, those kind of comments are indeed designed as a dire warning for leaving the mormon church. When I left, the bishop called my wife to try to discuss with her the consequences of leaving mormonism. We got an anonymous letter with what can best be described as an “anti-[filtered profanity or slur]” book designed to scare those who would leave by condemning them to outer darkness. Don’t fear the opinions of men, but fear the Lord and in that you will find wisdom. There were two things that were spiritually liberating when we left, drinking my first cup of coffee and getting the letter from Salt Lake revoking our mormon baptism and temple “blessings”.

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