If Mormonism is a lie, what should people do about it?
If Mormonism is false, should we do nothing about it?
There seems to be a pervasive notion among many non-Christians that even if Mormonism is a religion fundamentally based on lies, people who know about it should, in a manner of speaking, simply sit back, kick up their feet, and take up wine-tasting. To quote Kevin Barney, a Mormon apologist associated with FAIR:
“I like to think that were I ever to leave, I would simply walk away. This has been the case with those of my family who are no longer involved in the Church, and I hope that I would be able to follow their example should it ever come to that.
“But I may be deluding myself. I have a huge intellectual investment in Mormonism (much, much more than any of my family members who have disengaged), and I can see how it would be hard not to remain engaged in thinking and writing and talking about Mormonism, albeit from a different perspective. Still, I like to think that I would indeed just walk away, take up wine drinking and focus my scholarly sensibilities on something else. Even if I came no longer to believe, I think I would still see the value in the Church for others and would not want to interfere with anyone else’s beliefs.” (>>)
I do not find this to be very loving. I want to live my life in such a way that I treat people the way I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes, especially considering what I know now. It is hard for to think, “If I was a worshiper of Baal and Yahweh was the one true God, I would hope that people would help me stay in ignorance or delusion or hardheartedness.” If I was a Mormon, and if Mormonism was based on a con-man, and if the Bible were still trustworthy in what it says about God and salvation and false prophets, I would want someone to “interfere” with my beliefs. Letting me go my merry way in a delusion isn’t loving. That kind of “tolerance” is for the lazy and cowardly who lack the moral integrity to step up and be gutsy, iconoclastic whistleblowers. Jesus wasn’t lying when he said, “and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32).
If Mormonism isn’t true, it would be incredibly loving and pro-Mormon to help destroy the religious system which enslaves the Mormon people with false promises.
Tragically, I have met scores of Mormons who disagree. I ask them, “If Mormonism isn’t true, would you want to know? If Mormonism isn’t true, and if it is leading people down a spiritually destructive path of damnation and enslavement to deceit, what should Christians like me do about it?” The answers are often shocking, but they reveal the heart’s condition. Apart from the radical, life-changing, perspective-revolutionizing, worldview-shaping work of the Holy Spirit, even the most relevant scripture and compelling arguments for the importance of truth cannot circumcise a calloused heart. As Jesus said, “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:7-8)
Knowing this, Christians are called to be patient and kind, to persist in teaching and correcting, praying that God would “grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth” (2 Timothy 2:22-26). “What is impossible with men is possible with God” (Luke 18:27).
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For discussion: How would you answer the two aforementioned questions?
Note: This thread is not about whether Mormonism is true or false, but rather about what one should do if it is indeed false. Even if you firmly believe Mormonism is true, I would hope that you would still be able to answer the question instead of merely criticizing the hypothetical.
The logical place for me to go regarding this question is to the Bible. Paul tells Timothy “….instruct cetain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.” He further emphasizes that instruction should be done in love from a pure heart and a good consdience and a sincere faith. Jude says to “…contend earnestly for the faith…” So we have a message and a method. The method will flow from our attitude and motivation. Why bother? Several reasons one of which was the proclamation of Joseph Smith announcing that all churches were wrong and their creeds an abomination. That puts us in the position and gives us the challenge of defending the faith and proclaiming the truth of the Gospel. It’s kind of a “he started it” perspective. We should be motivated at least in some part for the salvation of the souls of the Mormons. Although the corruption of the Gospel and a desire to set things right often takes the front seat with salvation tagging along behind.
Tough questions to answer as a Christian. Falcon made some good points, but let me turn this around for a second. What if Christianity were wrong and Mormonism proved right? If this were the case, I would turn away from Christianity and push Mormonism. I would want everyone to know the truth. As such, I would also change my life to reflect the new values I have found to be true. I’d expect others to do the same. If Christianity were wrong, I would tell others that it is wrong.
So, to get back to your question, what I would do and expect would be the exact same thing. I would turn away from Mormonism, and tell others that it is wrong and encourage them to leave the church.
Simply leaving and doing nothing to the others is a disservice to them.
The quote by Kevin Barney, a Mormon apologist said in part “I would…not want to interfere with anyone else’s beliefs.”
It is a double standard that Mormons are opposed to any “interference” with their religion, yet go door to door. So then, it seems okay to interfere ONLY if people are being brought into Mormonism.
Even though Mormonism is a mission minded religion, I think the motivations are different, as seen by the Mormon response to the question Aaron posed “if Mormonism were wrong, what should people do about it?” (i.e. nothing).
Scripture calls Christians to share the truth, and we do because of this and also because our hearts and lives have been changed! We are new creations in Christ and He is living in and through us. We have compassion and broken hearts for the lost - whether lost in worldliness or a false religion or whatever - they are where we once were - apart from Jesus Christ. We long for them to come to the truth of Jesus Christ and know Him.
I just finished reading the whole post that Steve Evans created and was sent into a fury. Not only is this information misguided but it borders on retarded. It is our duty as thinking intelligent people to correct the misconceptions, lies and false statements spewed forth.
If we believed everything we “heard” or “wrote” without doing the research then imagine the lawlessness, mass confusion, wars, and loss of life.
As Christians we are not only following the admonitions of Paul but we as thinking breathing humans are required to clear up lies, cons, and pure fabrication.
I believe most Mormons would agree with me if you inserted Jehovah Witness or 7th day. In fact that is why they send the Elders out to preach the gospel (their version) because all the rest of us are an abomination in the Mormons Gods sight. To them we are wrong and need to be brought to the “Truth”.
Before I discovered the truthful history about Mormonism I was a total hard core Mormon. I had a testimony, monthly temple visits and assumed what I was being told was true.
I am not an evil anti Mormon or evangelizing Christian. I am a person who researches facts and stands for the truth (Mormonism just happens to be my history and specialty).
My wife has a little saying that backs up everything about Mormonism; “I’ll buy you a ticket to Jerusalem when you can buy me a ticket to Zarahemla.”
Anubis
In other words, if one leaves the church, having found it to be false, it would be unethical and unloving to “leave it alone”.
In His Sermon on the Mount Jesus said His followers are to be “peacemakers” who are “pure in heart” (Matthew 5:8-9). Psalm 24 tells us that the pure in heart are wholly devoted to God; they do not “lift up [their] soul[s] to what is false” and they do not “swear deceitfully” (v. 4). Peacemakers (note the Scripture does not say peacekeepers) engage in proclaiming Christ’s work of reconciling sinners to God (Romans 5:1). That reconciliation is what brings about true peace; therefore, we are peacemakers when we share the Gospel (Isaiah 52:7). John Calvin said about Matthew 5:8, that the pure in heart “take no delight in cunning, but converse sincerely with men, and express nothing, by word or look, which is not felt in the heart.”
So how should Christians respond to a false religion and those “taken captive” by it? In obedience to Christ we must speak the truth (as peacemakers), and speak it sincerely (as the pure in heart) motivated by love.
Anubis,
If you have a blog or some place where you’ve posted your coming out story I’d like to read it. I enjoyed reading Arthur Sido’s.
I think that exMormons are uniquely qualified to witness to Mormons. I have zero contact with Mormons, at this time, where I live. Before I retired from the school business, I had contact with a few Mormon students, but it wasn’t the place or time to actively engage in outreach. Those who have been in the club have insights and can establish a connection that those of us outside will never have. Do the exMormons have an obligation to witness to their exbretheran? I would say as the Spirit leads them.
Falcon,
Here’s the reason that it becomes almost a mission to ex-Mormons. Parable time; a roofer comes to your house and tells you that you had damage on your roof. He says he will fix it for 10% of your gross income. You give him the money and he goes up on your roof. No work is done in fact no work was needed to be done. That roofer just left with your money. You call the cops and they say they can’t do anything. You call the neighbor and warn him but the roofer had already taken his money. The neighbor doesn’t care. The roofer has moved next door to his neighbor. You call that neighbor and he won’t listen. But the roofer is moving from house to house in your neighborhood. Do you sit back and not worry about it or do you continue to call everyone warning and hoping that at least one person will listen? (Sadly this was the case in Florida some people even called the news stations warning people but the guy was never caught) Sub in Mormonism and my point is made.
Even the atheist or agnostic ex-Mormons that know the true history will defend that truth with zeal.
I’ll be glad to pass on my story via email at donottaketheredpill@yahoo.com (I’ll be out of town for a few days though).
When I was leaving I had to convince my wife. Imagine the woman you love and your best friend not listening to you as you find out something, so important, so vital and so shocking.
Anubis
jer1414,
Per your comment: “It is a double standard that Mormons are opposed to any “interference” with their religion, yet go door to door.”
The purpose of missionaries is to give people an OPPORTUNITY to hear a message and decide for themselves, whether it is for them, whether it is true. The most important principle that Mormons try to promote in everyone, everywhere, is AGENCY, or the right to make choices given alternatives. Mormons feel they have a message that provides happiness and peace, and they feel they are doing a great service in OFFERING it, not pushing it, upon others.
True, some missionaries are a bit more aggressive than others, but that motivation is fueled by their absolute vigor that their teachings will bless others. They get no reward from their Mission President, Bishop at home, or parents from getting more converts. It is the pure satisfaction (joy to them) of giving people hope, joy, and faith.
On the subject, let me share with you two perspectives. First, from Joseph Smith. Isaac Behunnin said to him, “”If I should leave this Church I would not do as those men have done. I would go to some remote place where Mormonism had never been heard of, settle down, and no one would ever learn that I knew anything about it.”
The Prophet immediately responded: “Brother Behunnin, you don’t know what you would do. No doubt these men once thought as you do. Before you joined this Church you stood on neutral ground. When the gospel was preached, good and evil were set before you. You could choose either or neither. There were two opposite masters inviting you to serve them. When you joined this Church you enlisted to serve God. When you did that you left the neutral ground, and you never can get back on to it. Should you forsake the Master you enlisted to serve it will be by the instigation of the evil one, and you will follow his dictation and be his servant.”
Continued in next post…
To the faithful Mormons, the reason ex-Mormons can’t leave it alone, is because of an evil influence. On some aspects, they have much evidence to back it up. Remember the behavior of the ex-Mormons back in the 1800’s: hate-driven, blood-thirsty anger. Obviously, satanic. Or even look at Ed Decker: he gets ex’ed, rejoins with evil motivations, then gets ex’ed again, and he is OBSESSED with the Church. He spends the rest of his life trying to convince people why it’s wrong. Look at the opposite or the Mormon church: in general, they spend their time trying to prove why their Church is right, not why others are wrong. I think that’s an important distinction.
However, from ex and [filtered profanity or slur]s’ point of view, they feel they are doing a service, or God’s work, by trying to ’save’ people from the ‘evils’ of Mormonism. However, I think the aforementioned distinction is important.
Back to the core subject/issue: IF MORMONISM IS A LIE, then those ‘enlightened’ individuals can respectfully go about sharing their opinions. Like the LDS missionaries, these determined ex-Mormons should allow people to make their own unbiased decision. All actions should enhance people’s ability to use their Agency. That’s what this life is all about: make choices and see the fruits of those choices.
iamse7en,
I don’t mean to detract from the main thrust of this post, but wanted to respond to your assertion that missionaries “get no reward from their Mission President, Bishop at home, or parents from getting more converts. It is the pure satisfaction (joy to them) of giving people hope, joy, and faith.”
I don’t know your personal background or if and where you served a mission. My experience as a missionary (and that of countless others) in the third world was very different than what you describe.
Our missionaries were put under extreme pressure to produce high baptismal numbers. Not living up to the mission presidents numerical expectations often resulted missionaries being punished by being transferred to difficult areas of the mission and given nightmare companions to work with.
By contrast, missionaries who baptized well were rewarded with leadership positions in the mission. These jobs involved working in an air-conditioned office as opposed to knocking on doors. Missionaries in leadership positions were also given a higher monetary allowance than the other “grunt” missionaries.
Because of this system, several missionaries resorted to abusive and manipulative proselyting techniques that in no way involved God, the Spirit, or the individuals right to choose.
While I realize that all missions are not like what I described, I have heard the same stories from so many returned missionaries who served in varied parts of the world.
Orson Pratt, an early apostle in the LDS church said the following that relates very well to our discussion:
“Convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds.” (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 15-16, 1853)
When I was still LDS, I hated it when Christians would use “logical arguments” and the “word of God” to show me that my beliefs were in error. It stung to think that I had been duped, believed in things that were not true, and had taught those things to other people.
I can easily say now that I am so grateful for the many people in my life who have cared enough about me to tell these things even though they hurt at the time.
And, by contrast, if Mormonism is truly God’s one and only church, I would still hope that my LDS friends would still love me enough to show me that my current beliefs are flawed.
In the eternal scheme things, nothing else matters more.
inamse7en,
That’s funny I thought this life was about bringing glory to God, my mistake. :-p Also do you not see that by saying your Church is the One true Church all other Churches are wrong?
Anyways as to the question at hand, I believe it is the duty of any Christian to “take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11) Therefore if an ex-Mormon becomes a Christian they do share the Truth with members still caught in the lie. This takes an interesting twist when speaking of ex-Mormons who become agnostic or atheistic. However most have the integrity to at least present the issues to Mormons. I believe that the reason many Christians take a stance against Mormonism, as well as other pseudo-Christian organizations, is because they know and love members within these organizations. It is not that we are out to “get” Mormons rather we want them to come to the saving faith in the God of Scripture.
As for iamse7en’s distinction, we need not look further than your scriptures to see how Mormonism sees other religions. 1 Nephi 14:10 “And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” Also both Christians and Mormons must show that the other side is incorrect in their thinking in order to prove that they are correct. If you are correct you must declare that we are incorrect and vice versa. Unfortunately the distinction you made does not exists.
Lautensack
Nowhere in the New Testament do we see that we get the option of ignoring or co-existing with false faiths. We are warned to both beware of false faiths and to expose them when they arise. In the Old Testament, the story is even stronger. When the power of the true God vanquished the false god Baal, Elijah didn’t seek ecumenical dialogue with the prophets of Baal. We read in 1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.
As a young mormon, I remember a local priesthood leader “reassuring” me that even if the book of mormon wasn’t true, the church is still better than anything else out there. I am afraid that when I saw that the BoM was a lie, I was content to neither remain in mormonism because it was comfortable and convenient, nor to let the lie and the degradation of God’s name go unopposed. Christians can no more ignore mormonism and hope it goes away then we could watch a speeding car hit a pedestrian without shouting a warning.
iamse7en is right. Its all about agency. If someone tells you to leave them alone, you leave them alone. As for the questions, I would assert that is why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a missionary church. It’s commanded by Jesus that we be missionaries and to help God’s lost children find the truth. To help them find their way out of the lie they live in religiously. So the answer is yes, but with limits. Jesus never forced anyone, he merely gave them the opportunity. When they refused, he backed off.
This is a bit of a trick question. In the first part of the article Aaron wrote “There seems to be a pervasive notion among many non-Christians that even if Mormonism is a religion fundamentally based on lies, people who know about it should, in a manner of speaking, simply sit back, kick up their feet, and take up wine-tasting. Note the bolded part. So of course most non-Christians would say to leave it alone, especially the athiests and agnostics. So the answer for the initial premise of the question would be YES, leave the LDS members alone. But that would be from a non-Christian perspective.
The question then goes into the Christian perspective, and as a member of the LDS church, from everything I have learned, the answer would be to try and teach/warn the members of the LDS church about the falsness of their church. As iamse7ven said, that is why we LDS send missionaries out - to teach others about the falsness of their church and tell them the truth. I have also said in past posts that I commend all on this site for trying to do just that - sticking to what you believe is true and trying to assist those who you believe are in the path of wrong to see the truth. Its a mandate given by God, and those on this site are doing it, which is more than I can say about many Christians and LDS.
But as both iamse7en and chuck5000 have said - we cannot and should not FORCE the issue. This site is an open site and anyone can come and go as they please which is following this aspect and which is what I like about it.
Chuck, the question is what should one do IF mormonism is a lie. Let me pose the question to you in a more personal way, if you found uncategorically that mormonism was false (for example irrefutable evidence that the BoM was not inspired), what would or what should you do? Stay in the church anyway? Leave and never look back? Leave and tell others what you have found?
I know a few other families personally who have left and just want nothing to do with the church, while others like me seek to witness to those left behind.
Anubis,
It was hard for my wife as well, mormom women are so imprinted with the idea that their husbands have this mystical priesthood authority that when they decide to leave it is difficult. My wife really struggled with that, but she eventually was able to shed the
iamse7en, instead of being demon possessed and obsessive, is it possible that ex-mormons who are now current Christians who seem unable to leave the church alone are simply lovingly trying to tell others whom they have an affinity with based on a common exprience about the lie that they are in and the truth that has been revealed? (sorry about the run-on sentence)
When Paul saw the light, did he just leave Judaism alone or did he go about proclaiming the unadulterated Gospel? He didn’t shy away from telling Jews why their way was incomplete and why Christ was the better, and indeed the only, way. It cost Paul a great deal of pain, and it caused a ton of trouble and upset Jews but that is what the Gospel does, it exposes a bright line and ask where you stand, on the one side with the Christ of the Bible or on the other side against Him.
To our exMormon posters here, there does seem to be a lot of exMormon websites, blogs, ministries etc. I could be wrong, but that seems to be a characteristic of Mormonism. I don’t see that with say Methodists, or Prebyterians, or any similar denomination. The range of intense emotion of exMos is quite stunning. I’m thinking the activism of many exMormons is probably a good way of channeling some of that emotion. I ran into a young (exMormon)woman years ago up in Logan, Utah. I was visiting the Beehive State and didn’t know much about Mormons. Anyway, this lady was probably one of the most intensly angry person I’ve ever encoutered. She told the tale of (I don’t know the number) of young female Mormon friends who had committed suicide. This gal had the torch and pitchfork variety anger. As I think about it, I hope she found a constructive way to resolve the issues she had with the Mormon Church. I think some exMos choose to get involved in outreach as a means of doing that.
falcon, you bring up a very good point. On the other hand, all of the ex-{insert demoniation} who join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are completely the opposite. From my experience, those who find the Gospel of Jesus Christ are cheerful and happy and excited about life and look forward to all of the blessings of the Gospel. I have never heard of anyone who converted to the church who was angry with their previous religion at all. That to me speaks volumes.
Aurthur, to answer your question… I have attended other churches and nothing compares to the truth I have. However, I am always willing to give up something I have now for something better.
I would rather pose a similar question to all of you: IF God told you something was true, should you continue your search?
Chuch5000,
Only if I am infallibly sure that God is speaking and it is not some concoction of my fallen will, rationalization, or emotions. Therefore I “Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil.”
Now as to ex-(insert denomination here) not speaking of the “lies” of their former Church that also speaks wonders to me. Mainly that they did not find that their former Church was not full of lies as most former Mormons have. Also I don’t remember who mentioned it, I think it was Ralph, but people who leave Mormonism and become atheists and agnostics do share the lies of Mormonism and the True History of the Church with it’s members. See Websites like: exmormon.org, exmormonfoundation.org, and rethinking-mormonism.com. Just to mention a few. Thus if I find something is not true of this level of importance I stand by my statement of inform all whom I can that it is not true.
Lautensack
iamse7en, this is only half the story. LDS missionaries are also told that they are calling the world to repentance. The LDS gospel, just like the traditional Christian gospel, is both an invitation to join and a command to join. So while neither Mormons nor Christians would want to coercively (in a violent or dishonoring, imposing way) “force” their gospel, both “force” it in the sense of their gospel being both an invitation and a command to repent. I say that because this culture is affected by postmodernism and many tend to associate “force” with the non-violent proclamation of authoritative truth-claims which demand repentance.
Ralph, thanks for your honesty. It is uncommon and refreshing. I hope you realize that most Mormons today would deny what you’ve said here. I hope you’ll join us in calling into question the notion that Mormonism does not attempt to warn against the (at least alleged) falsehoods of traditional Christianity. I think it shows a lack of integrity when people are not willing to explicitly admit what they otherwise implicitly communicate. I commend you for your not following the crowds and for displaying integrity.
Of course, theologically speaking, I don’t think Mormons are Christians, and I was particularly referring to Mormons in the post as those who generally don’t think people should be warned about false religions (especially if the religion in question in Mormonism). (Again, thanks for being a refreshing exception.) But yeah, there are some non-LDS, non-Christian folks who think Mormons should be warned about the falsehoods of Mormonism as well, but I tend to think think they are exceptional and not ordinary. Its the poison of postmodernism and theological pluralism.
Have a wonderful Saturday,
Aaron
Falcon, unfortunately a lot of mormons get out of mormonism and don’t turn to Christ. They just go adrift. That doesn’t mean they should have stayed in mormonism, but it does mean that is they don’t have Christ to turn to it can be difficult in their lives which leads to anger. Other people are just mad that they were lied to and that they bought into that lie.
I once heard this analogy to witnessing to mormons, don’t row up to a rubber raft, shoot it full of holes and then invite the mormon into your rubber raft. You have to be grounded in the Gospel, leaving mormonism or any other cult is emotionally difficult so it is important to be ready to catch them when the house falls down. It is not enought to show why mormonism is false, but it is also vital to show why Christ is the better way.
From all the comments and the impressions I am gathering from what is being said, I think I can finally formulate an answer to the questions being posed.
Instead of constantly telling someone they are believing in lies, it would be better to share your version of the truth. After all, isn’t that the more loving approach? Nobody likes to be told they are wrong, especially when they think|feel|been told they are right. That is why as LDS Missionaries teach, they don’t bash on the person or their beliefs. They approach them with the truth that Church of Jesus Christ has to offer and lets the individual decide for themselves.
That’s how I would be more willing to listen to someone. If they approached me and taught the truths they feel they have, it would be a more pleasant experience. But to constantly be told, “You’re wrong”, “Mormonism is false”, “you’re believing in lies”, etc., will never encourage me to want to listen because there is no alternative being offered. I would prefer to hear their beliefs, the truth they have, and what they have to offer in terms of salvation without any contrasting. Not only does it come across more loving, but half the time when the other party starts to speak about “Mormonism”, the things being shared are not accurate at all.
To take it one step further, it would mean a lot more if the person not only shared what they felt was true, but instead of asking me to take their word for it, they would tell me to ask God what the truth was and get an answer from Him. I would be more likely to listen to the answer I got from God than some person.
It’s like Lautensack said, “Only if I am infallibly sure that God is speaking and it is not some concoction of my fallen will, rationalization, or emotions.” How can I know they are speaking for God and not from their own ideas?
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.” (John 16:23)
For you exMormons and never were Mormons who witness on a regular basis to Mormons, I have a question. Maybe it’s a statement. Do you ever run into a happy go lucky Mormon, witness to them, the light bulb goes on and they’re like, “WOW, I should have had a V8!” Get my drift? In reading stories of exMormons, it would appear that there is a pattern of awakening that leads them to exiting Mormonism. Some will give up on religion, others get born again and begin anew in a Christian church. So where does public evangelism fit into the program. Would anyone care to share what they have found to be the most effective means of witnessing to Mormons? And what in general are the motivational reasons for their unsettled situation within Mormonism?
Chuck5000,
So if I ask the Father in the Name of Jesus for a Million dollars He will give it to me? Shucks, why didn’t I think of that earlier? A joke of course. However my question must stand further scrutiny than quoting part of a verse. This reference of course is referring to true believers as it is them who have all knowledge (1 John 2:20). Therefore if you and I receive different answers or “testimonies” from the Father about a certain subject who is correct? Could it be possible that one of us Jesus has not called friend and was not asking the Father but some idol created to lead them astray? This is why John also warns us, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (John 4:1)
Search the Scriptures.
Acts 17:11
Lauatensack
Sorry for the backtoback comments but “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” is from 1 John 4:1 not John 4:1.
Lautensack
Likewise on searching the scriptures. If I search them and find one answer and you search them and find another, who is right?
I’m not certain I understand your point. If I pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, our savior and redeemer, and you do the same, then who is the one you refer to as praying to “some idol?”
To answer that question, it’s easy, if you have truly received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the power and authority of God and learn to recognize how he speaks to you, then you can receive answers. Otherwise, you can be deceived. It is possible that if we receive different answers, someone only has part of the truth. So it’s easy for me to know when I have received an answer. God has answered me through the spirit, and I have found the “evidence” of those answers in the scriptures, and I have heard the same answers by the mouth of the Prophets. So I have had multiple witnesses of the truth and not relies singly on my perception of scripture. But you will have to answer that question for yourself.
As for the Million Dollars… ha ha. Way different from getting an answer to truth.
“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men” (Isa. 29:13) I listen to my heart when the spirit speaks, not my head. Satan can never imitate the feelings of the Spirit. He may appear like unto an angel of light and deceive with thoughts, but he can NEVER cause me to feel love, peace, joy, happiness, and truth. That’s how I know.
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We’ve taken a turn from the original topic I see. I would like to make a suggestion that perhaps our Mormon Coffee moderators would like to present, as a topic of discussion sometime, “Hearing From God”. I grabbed a two volume book off my shelf entitled “Surprised By the Power of the Spirit and Surprised by the Voice of God. Let me give you the flavor of what the author says: the author…….provides a strong biblical defense for the Spirit’s speaking and healing ministries today. He also demonstrates how God still communicates with us today in a variety of creative, deeply personal, and intimate ways. He shows how God speaks with people apart from the Bible, though never in contradiction to it (I liked that part). The author…..explains how to accurately hear God’s voice through prophecies, dreams, visions, and other forms of divine communicaiton. Another book entitled “The Latent Power of the Soul” by a Chinese Christian mystic Watchman Nee, talks about man being body, soul and spirit. In a nutshell, the soul has a lot of “spiritual” potential, but it isn’t the spirit.
Chuck, “To answer that question, it’s easy, if you have truly received the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the power and authority of God and learn to recognize how he speaks to you, then you can receive answers. Otherwise, you can be deceived.” So Chuck, if you ask for an answer and I ask for an answer for the same question, but we get different answers, what do we do with that? And that doesn’t jive with mormon evangelism. Don’t you ask people to pray if the BoM is true, but converts don’t get “the gift of the Holy Ghost” until an elder lays hands on them. So aren’t investigators who are told to pray about the BoM open to being deceived, having not received the Holy Spirit yet?
Chuck5000,
Please follow the argument, If A) you and I both pray, and we receive different answers, and B) God does not lie, then C) one of our answers did not come from God and we were praying to some Idol we have created be it with our evil heart (Mark 7:21) or debase mind(Romans 1:28). It’s ironic that you listen with your heart as “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but he who walks wisely will be delivered.” Proverbs 28:26 and “And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.” Genesis 8:21 Also I have never read that Satan cannot imitate wonderful feelings where is that? John the Revelator bowed and worshiped an angel.(Revelation 19:10) If John the Disciple Jesus loved fell at the feet of one not trying to lead him astray how much more could happen if one was in the clutches of Satan as he disguises himself as an angel of Light(2 Corinthians 11:14).
Lautensack
Chuck5000,
As has already been said, the problem with trusting your feelings when gaining a knowledge of God is that feelings ARE fallible. Different people feel that different things are right. If truth is absolute (which I think both LDS and Traditional Christians agree with), then one of two conclusions emerge:
1) God is a liar
2) Feelings are perhaps not the best metric for evaluating divine truth.
To give a further well known counter-example to your argument, let’s consider John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement. Early in his ministry, he attended a meeting at a Moravian church where Martin Luther’s preface to the Book of Romans was being studied. In his journal he describes his experience:
‘while he was describing the change in the heart through faith in Christ I felt my heart strangely warmed … I felt an assurance was given to me that He had taken away my sins … and saved me from the law of sin and death.’ (see http://www.ely.anglican.org/parishes/camgsm/sermons/S2003e/rf1sermon.html for complete story)
What John Wesley describes sounds an awful like what Latter-Day Saints say about their experience with the Book of Mormon. But here’s the rub: what Martin Luther’s preface to the Book of Romans taught and what Joseph Smith taught in regards to man’s salvation are completely opposite. It is impossible for both of them to be right. Having a feeling does not assure someone of knowing truth.
In my experience leaving the LDS church and entering traditional Christian, I have felt things in my heart that have beaten the pants off of anything that I felt in my 10 years of being LDS. I would never say, however, that those feelings mean that I am right. I have to trust in God’s word for that and evaluate myself against that standard. Doing anything else puts me on a shakey foundation that I am unwilling to trust when my eternal salvation and relationship to God is on the line.
Aurthur, its through the light of Christ they can find and accept the truth if they choose to accept the influence of the spirit. But if they do not accept it, they do not receive the Holy Ghost nor truth.
Lautensack, we can go back and forth with the scriptures. You quote about he who trusts his heart is a fool but who walks wisely will be delivered. I quote one about he who is learned and wise is a fool. We obviously have two different views and have received two different answers as to what to believe. Show me where the scriptures say Satan can cause someone to feel peace, joy, happiness etc. I have already said he can appear as an angel of light. I have also said he can influence your thoughts. All through scripture we see how Satan causes lying, deceit, lust, etc. Everything opposite to peace, joy, and happiness.
Aaron, you refer to a pedafile having feelings of pleasure and joy. Two completely different things. Pleasure is not always a good thing. The feelings they have are lustful and evil. In the immediate moment they may feel they are happy, but they are not truly happy. Tell me you understand the difference. This is in stark contrast to somone who feels the hapiness and joy in Christ. Even if Satan put a demon in someone, their fruits would show that.
Ephesians 4
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past FEELING have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But I would pose the same question. You know you have the truth. I know I have the truth. You say your truth is from God. I say my truth is from God. Do you know for sure you are asking the right questions?
Chuck, “Aurthur, its through the light of Christ they can find and accept the truth if they choose to accept the influence of the spirit. But if they do not accept it, they do not receive the Holy Ghost nor truth.” Huh? They are influenced by the Holy Ghost before they get the Holy Ghost, but if they accept mormonism then they get the Holy Ghost?
You are still ignoring the question. If we both pray about the same thing, and get different answers, then the issue is not in the question but in the method. Perhaps praying about a predetermined outcome is not the proper way to go about things, since our feelings can deceive us. What we CAN do, and in fact what is the Biblical model, is to check what is being said against the Scriptures. If the Bible says one thing and Joseph Smith says something different, than either the Bible or Smith is wrong. What each teaches is mutually exclusive of the other. But We have been down this path before and you still don’t seem willing to concede this point.
The “hooked on a feeling” aspect of Mormonism is one (I think) of the foundational features of the religion which makes it so difficult for the members to deal with the reality of evidence. For the hardcore true believers I think this makes them somewhat impervious to outreach programs. No matter how it’s logically explained to a Mormon, the “feeling” they’re getting is a special feeling not just one of your run of the mill emotional highs. This, when linked with the revelation knowledge they claim to be getting from “god” is a real potent spiritual mixture. It fights against all sound reason because it is so rewarding. It’s also a real piety head trip.
Aurthur, the light of Christ and the Holy Ghost are different. But I cannot expect you to understand so I will leave it at that. Not only that, but you would not accept what I have to say on the subject.
I have said before, it’s not just the feeling. I go to God in prayer and ask specific questions. Then I receive the answers through feelings. Are you saying I should ignore the answers? So how do you receive answers to prayers? You will have a lot of convincing to do if you expect me to believe you simply just “know the truth”. Why would you take God out of the equation? Are you saying God cannot answer questions through feelings? Talk about a piety head trip. Since when do you have the ability to dictate how God can answer questions?
What’s even more interesting is the constant slander without evidence. You all continue to say, as the question for this topic suggests, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is false, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible, and Joseph Smith was a liar. Yet no body can show conclusively, with scripture or otherwise, how they have come to this conclusion. They have leaned on their own wisdom and have drawn this conclusion.
As for we both cannot be right, I wouldn’t say it like that. I would say their is a little bit of the truth in a lot of things. It’s the same reason you can get differing eye witnesses to the same event. But again, I will still lean towards the same church Jesus established while in the flesh, with 12 Apostles and the Prophet. I accept the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. I will also understand you have some truth, but not the whole truth. But it sounds like you are ok with that.
Hey Chuck5000,
I must be brief as I am about to head out to church however you asked where the Bible says Satan can “cause someone to feel peace, joy, happiness etc.” I submit of course to the John 8:44, “He [Satan] was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” Now to assume he can only lie intellectually or only attack the thoughts of your mind rather than both the thoughts of your mind and the thoughts of your heart is perhaps one of his gravest deceptions. Also do you understand what lasciviousness means? It means things that good feelings or sensuality as spoken of in Jude4.
Also a question on your last post as Jesus said He was leaving and returning to the Father and Glory, who did He leave as prophet? And what Scripture is there to back this up?
Lautensack
Ephesians 4:19 is ironic because it speaks of those who become callous to one thing and yet full of sensuality over another. In other words, they have feelings about some things about dullness about others. I think this is a huge problem with Mormonism, as it teaches its members to feel great feelings over Joseph Smith and the church priesthood hierarchy but yet to be callous and indifferent to the idea that God the Father was potentially once demon-possessed and addicted to sin.
Instead of teaching people to examine feelings with truth, Mormonism teaches people to examine truth with feelings (and a naked, unsubstantiated interpretation of these feelings happens to be ironically provided by Mormonism, so it really isn’t a true examination).
But let’s remember why this issue of feelings came up between you and me, chuck. You said, “If they approached me and taught the truths they feel they have, it would be a more pleasant experience.” But this sorely overlooks the fact that some truth is not, at first, pleasant. I hope this is obvious, for when a doctor tells someone about their cancer, he is probably not telling about it to engender immediate pleasant emotions.
That’s why I emphasized, “truth is truth”. Whether a feeling is legitimate and worthy of continuation and fostering should be examined not by putting a wet finger in the air of our heart and feelings which way the wind blows, but rather by looking outside of ourselves to the word of God to see if those feelings are encouraged within a Biblical worldview based on truth.
It’s not just the feeling. When you are earnestly seeking truth, studying the scriptures, praying for answers, the spirit will bear witness through feelings and emotion. The scriptures are clear gentlemen:
Ephesians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
The fruits of the spirit are feelings & emotions that lead to actions. This shows clearly the difference between the work of the Devil and the work of the Spirit. Satan cannot truly imitate the fruits of the spirit. If you disagree, please provide the scriptural reference to support your claim as clearly as Ephesians supports mine.
Lautensack, if you remember, Jesus called Peter to be the prophet. In Matthew 16:
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
This called Peter to be the prophet and upon the foundation of revelation (see v.17) Jesus would build His church. He said, “Thou art Peter (Greek petros = small rock) and upon this rock (Greek petra = bed rock) I will build by church.”
Also, Lautensack, lasciviousness usually carries a sexual connotation, one of deviance or lewdness; since you asked.
Chuck,
Constant slander (about Mormonism) without evidence? Have you been paying attention? Where do you want to start? And talk about not wanting to listen to evidence. Here we go:
1. Joseph Smith practiced magic arts with the use of a seer stone in an attempt to find buried treasure. The same stone he used to interpret his treasure-the gold plates.
2. Joseph Smith took as wives women who were married to other church members and also at least one teenager.
3. There is no DNA, archeological, lingustic or historic evidence to support the ideas laid out in the book of Morman. Horses, cattle, sheep, and elephants mentioned in the BoM were not on this continent. Nephi owned a bow of fine steel 400 years before steel was invented and 2,000 years before steel processing was advanced enough to fabricate such an item. Not to mention a whole host of other evidence which can be provided on request.
3. Joseph Smith claims of interpretation for the Book of Abraham proved to be a total fraud.
4. The prophet got the wool pulled over his eyes with the Kinderhook plates rip-off.
I know, you prayed about these things and you got a good feeling which is enough to prove the BoM is true.
falcon, if we all allowed ourselves to be persuaded by men, it’s most likely we would still believe the earth is flat, the universe revolves around the earth, etc. The statements you make come from men, not God. That is not evidence. You make it sound impossible for God to do things without men. Feel free to believe what you like, but just because another man says these things will not change the truth. This is not evidence. This is the learning of man and his inability to accept that God is in charge. No man can walk on water, yet Jesus did. Peter started walk on water too until he lacked faith.
So long as you do not have faith in God and know that he is in control regardless of what men say, you will not be able to accept the truth, you will continue to lean to your own understanding and the teachings of man. As for me, I will lean to the fruits of the spirit and the teachings of God.
Apparently it is you who is not paying attention I’m afraid. You continue to harp about evidence. You have provided no such thing. You are simply providing the councils of man. You cannot even pretend to speak for God as you believe he has said all that he is going to say and will say no more. So you couldn’t come to know any additional truth he provided because you have already sealed your heart and mind to his councils. He couldn’t get through to you even if he wanted to.
You have a loving father in heaven who wants to speak to you and he can’t because you will not accept his communication. This is truly sad. I will pray for you.
Chuck5000,
Interesting you quote Matthew 16:18 as pointing to Peter being “the Prophet of the Church” when you reject the Claim that Jesus made after “the gates of hell shall never prevail against it.” Also if the church is being built on Peter then why later in the same chapter does Jesus call Peter Satan(v.23)? I don;t see how you can make reference to this verse and not confirm the promise of Jesus within it. Also I agree with all of Galatians not simply the parts that fit into my theology, mainly the part you reject, that salvation is by grace alone. If all nice people, who show signs of the fruit of the spirit then how are you to say that JWs or any other religious group, or even atheists do not have the truth, and by that I mean the whole truth as they exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.
You in a later post speak of how God “is in control regardless of what men say” however while you draw near to Him with your lips yet your heart is far from Him. How can I make such a bold statement, because your god is not nor was he ever in control. This is clearly seen by your belief in an 1800 year total apostasy which your god could not prevent. Your god is not my God, nor is he the God of scripture rather he is a concoction of your depraved heart and mind presented to you by the prince of the kingdom of the air. To be frank your god is too small, being limited by the whims and wills of men. I pray that God will grant you repentance for making yourself to be greater than He.
Lautensack
Chuck -
I find it ironic that you mention that if we just listened to what man said, we would still think the earth was flat and hold to geocentrism.
It was men who were willing to undertake a real investigation of the world around them that figured out that the world was round and not the center of the universe. They gathered evidence for what they believed, presented it to the community, examined the arguments given by the opposition, and guess what, truth won!
It was the people who trusted their feelings and prejudices during this time who fought against the plain and obvious. They stuck to their guns simply because they “knew” that what they already believed was right, and they were not about to let reality get in their way.
The reason why an apostacy could happen is because men are allowed choice. We can chose to do good or evil according to our knowledge.
The one situation we must all recognize is that neither God nor the devil have direct first person interaction with people. Where would choice be if we were always punished the very momment we did something wrong, or rewarded every time we did something right.
The purpose here is that through various means God gives us truth, just as through various means Satan tempts us.
Agency is the underlying principle no matter when we are born, who we are, or where we live.
Chuck, that was just funny!: “falcon, if we all allowed ourselves to be persuaded by men, it’s most likely we would still believe the earth is flat, the universe revolves around the earth, etc. The statements you make come from men, not God.”
Like believing that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri? That men dressed like Quakers live on the moon? That Noah’s Ark sailed from North America? That a civilization existed that there is no evidence for on this continent? That men who claim the office of “prophet, seer and revelator” have been shown on a number of occassions to be frauds and unable to translate ancient langauges or recognize fraudulent documents(ex. the Book of Abraham docs, Kinderhook, Salamander letters)?
That is the problem with blind faith that refuses to investigate claims. Again, you base your faith on feelings and subjectivity, and yet YOU rail against those who follow man’s wisdom. You can have faith and still not be duped, but you have to have open eyes and only God can open those eyes.
Jacob, this is WAAAAY off topic, but the cherished idea of free agency is a fallacy. When God changed my heart, I was not seeking Him. When Saul was converted on the way to Damascus, he was not excercising free agency. When Christ called His disciples, they did not choose Him, He chose them. Man in his sin is dead, like the valley of dry bones and only the quickening of the Holy Spirit causes men to respond. It would be an interesting topic to discuss offline sometime, as free agency is cherished among mormons and many Christians alike.
(Sorry for the brief Calvinist rant, feel free to delete this comment!)
Falcon, I deleted your last comment because it didn’t seem needed. While I share your frustration, let’s just stick to the issues.
Be careful Ed, you are boaderline heretic amongst us when you say “the people who trusted their feelings”. Feelings is taboo among the other Christians posting here. Yet you have proven my point nicely. That is exactly what I have been saying the whole time.
Aurthur my friend, you assume I have not investigated? I have said it before I will say it again. I have investigated these claims you propose, and they have no merit. I have attended other churches, and have concluded through study and prayer that they have, at best, partial truths. God has opened mine eyes. From what I have learned about you, your eyes were opened once as well and you chose to close them.
So to conclude my thoughts on if “Mormonism” is a lie, what should people do about it? Anything that is a lie, should be corrected. However, nobody has yet proved it to be a lie; and they never will. The best you have to offer is an attempt to get people to believe it’s false.
Lautensack, you may be right in your assessment of the distinction between the Gods we worship. But I can tell you a few things: 1) I am not smart enough to concoct any such concept of God. 2)I worship the God of the Old and New Testament in the name of Jesus Christ, his son, who died for the world to take upon Him their sins.
My God loves all of his children and continues to speak to a prophet today to share His will. This because the heavens are not closed and He is not limited by man telling Him that He can no longer speak to His children through revelation. He is not limited to the scriptures. He has all power in both the heaven and the earth. That is the God I worship. So if that is not the God you worship, then yes, we worship different Gods. However, my God will still love you as His child and He will not turn away from you; whether you believe in Him or not.
Chuck5000,
Yes you addressed my statement about your god not being my God, yet you failed to address my points concerning Matthew 16:18 therefore in case you missed them I will repost them here.
Finally you say you serve the God of the Old Testament and New Testament? So you serve the God of Deuteronomy 6:4 who is One God, of 1 Samuel 15:1-3 who orders genocide, of Isaiah 53:10 who was pleased to Crush His own Son, Romans 11:4 who keeps servants for Himself, of Ephesians 1 who predestined some for adoption before the foundation of the world, of 1 Peter 3:17 who wills the suffering of His followers, of Matthew 25 who will throw the workers of iniquity into the lake of fire made for the devil and his angels? That’s the God you serve? If not then you don’t worship the God of the Old and New Testaments but rather an Idol you have created in your heart and mind. “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Lautensack
Sorry Chuck, I think you misread my previous post. The “feelings” comment was meant to refer to the people who refused to accept the overwhelming evidence of a round earth, heliocentric universe, etc and was NOT given as a favorable method for figuring stuff out. I think that was apparent in the context of what I wrote, but if not, my apologies.
Lautensack,
I don’t want an argument about this - you were just asking how we LDS interpret Matt 16:18. I know you probably interpret it differently so just listen and accept the answer.
We teach that the ‘rock’ that Jesus was talking about upon which the church will be built was revelation. We claim this as Jesus started the conversation about Peter knowing that Jesus was the Son of God by revelation. We do acknowledge that Jesus or the writer of this passage did play with words and Peter’s name, but His reference was to revelation. And true revelation from God can withstand the gates of hell.
As for Peter being a prophet, we believe that because of the succession of our prophets when the prophet dies - ie the senior apostle becomes prophet. Whenever all of the 12 apostles’ names are mentioned, Peter’s is always first - if I remember correctly. But really, this is from modern revelation about Peter being The Prophet to lead the church after Jesus’ death.
Thanks for being honest about this, it’s certainly not made apparent in the Bible.
Peter refers to specific prophetic scripture at the end of Acts 1 speaking of the downfall of Judas and his individual replacement, but there is no indication of a normative pattern for the succession of any others beyond that. Peter at times seems to have an influence of leadership, but at other times this isn’t so apparent. Peter never speaks of himself as of a top office of prophet, nor does any other apostle speak of Peter this way. James, not Peter, seems to have eventually taken the most prominent role of the “three pillars”, (James, Peter, and John). And then after that, of course, Paul (by influence of his letters). The way Paul speaks of his relationship with the other apostles at the beginning of Galatians (where he speaks of his authenticity and apostolic authority) seems odd if apostles were supposed to report to and receive specific direction from the alleged prophet (or the collective group of apostles). While Paul goes to those of influence to corroborate and validate his gospel, he doesn’t indicate that he goes to them to receive authority. In fact, he boasts in the Lord that he didn’t need to receive the authority or content of the gospel from others, including the apostles, which serves as part of his argument for his own apostolic authenticity.
Again, it seems like Mormonism is depending on there being a successful conspiratorial removal of Mormon doctrine from the New Testament—all without the evidence to show for it.
As to the main question. I guess it can be given to anyone about any belief they hold to for so long.
I would have to ask how this comes about. Is it simply the words of man or is it a direct revelation from God?
Remember that Noah must have gone over such ridicule for building a ship without any evidence that it would rain. I have my faith. I don’t have direct evidence to my faith, but I have personal evidence. That is why this would be such a difficult question for me to answer. For it it was men who taught me the basic principles, but it was God who confirmed that to me. So the only Person who could nullify that confirmation would be God.
I realize not much weight is given in this forum to personal truths, faith, or testimony, but to me it has carried me my whole life. It is apart of me, and to reject that part of me does not negate its existence. If we do look at the words of men, their philosophies, over the ages they have been ammended, modified, or outright deleted. But the word that comes from God is more powerful than the most carismatic leader, more profound than the deepest scholar, and more penetrating than the sharpest tounge.
How could I even doubt what I have felt in me for my whole life.
If there are seeming inconsistancies I only say, “Wait.” Give it time. My testimony comes not from whether or not it is proven a horse existed in the Americas before a certain date, or whether every since word out of Brother Brigham’s mouth was truly prophetic, but upon my Lord and my God.
How do I know? He tells them to me. I have experiences that have led me further in my knowledge of His gospel. Some of which are very personal. If I reject these things then I know I would be rejecting my faith and who I am.
I tell you all, that 177 years is far too short a time to be calling in all that our church has claimed, or for any church for that matter. How long did it take for the Dead Sea scrolls to come to light?
I’m really eager to get some recorded testimonies from true fundamentalist Mormons on MP3 for you guys. It’s really intimidating for a lot of mainstream Mormons (i.e. liberal Mormons who have rejected original fundamentals) to hear them because they share a lot of the same expressions of emotions, crying, phrases, motifs/themes, talk of experiences, talk of “I can’t deny what I’ve felt”, etc.
You’d think you were hearing a mainstream Mormon, but it’s really just someone bearing witness of the truthfulness and divinity of their own clan and of the beauty of polygamy.
Jacob, I know I’ve said this elsewhere, but just for the sake of observation please notice that you seem to be distinguishing the Bible from the revelatory word of God, implying that the Bible is the word of man and not also the direct word of God.
I’m willing to listen to the evidence, but so far I haven’t seen any compelling evidence that the Bible was changed to the degree that any major (or even minor?) doctrines were impacted. On the other hand, it seems like much of Mormonism has been radically “amended, modified, or outright deleted”. I think for example of the more classically monotheistic Lectures on/of Faith (since removed from the mainstream LDS canon), the evolution of the concept of priesthood authority in the early 1830’s (retroactively embellishing early stories about priesthood ordination), the evolution of the First Vision accounts which correspond to parallel theological developments in Mormonism, the Adam-God teaching integrated in the St. George temple, the teaching that polygamy—an everlasting covenant and principle intimately woven into the early usage of the term ‘Celestial marriage’—was absolutely necessary for Celestial exaltation, the evolution of the meaning and usage of the terms Jehovah, Elohim, and Michael (authoritatively promoted in 1916 to counteract the confusion caused by, among other things, the still-surviving Adam-God teaching), the modified “divine investiture” doctrine used as a sort of damage-control Band-Aid to deal with an internally conflicting canon, and the shifts to and from traditional Lorenzo Snow couplet theology.
On some of these issues I heartily recommend this essay by Thomas G. Alexander, a renowned Mormon historian.
Sincerely,
Aaron
[...] post is a continuation of the discussion on the previous post, “If Mormonism is a lie, what should people do about it?” The discussion evolved onto the topic of the role of feelings in discerning [...]
Hei Aaron,
That’s fine about getting the testimonies from true Fundamentalists - They come from the same background so of course they would have similar teachings, sayings and attributes in their testimonies.
I wonder if I got a testimony from a homosexual who identifies with being Evangelical Christian. Would it be the same as yours? Would they say that they prayed for forgivness of sins and accepting Jesus as their Saviour and received knowledge that they were saved. I know most of you will not accept an open homosexual as a true Christian, but there are those out there which do say they are Christian and they have become saved by accepting Jesus. So are they correct because they follow your teachings? Does their similar testimonies and teachings prove that your beliefs are wrong?
My point - Just because they sound the same and do things the same because of a common background does not prove that both, either or neither are false.
So go ahead Aaron, get the recordings if you can, it won’t make a difference to how I feel about the truthfulness my beliefs. It would be interesting to hear though.
I just wanted to comment on this idea from the Mormons on how God answers prayer…
Seems like the Mormons pray about an issue, and then wait to feel something in their heart, as the answer?
I guess I’ve never found that to be reliable.When I pray about a problem, and ask God to fix it, or what I should do…I never wait for a “feeling”. I always wait for a clear answer. For example, when I had a situation where someone was persecuting me unjustly, I prayed about it and waited to see what would happen…and at the same time tried to maintain my standards of behavior in line with scripture…and lo and behold the situation was resolved in a way that was clearly a “miracle”. (This person was removed entirely from the situation, by an outside source.)
I’m curious how other Christians interpret their answers to prayer requests like this…
lillym, that is truly an answer to a prayer and it sounds like God delivered you without you only having to ask. A true testimony to the fact that prayer works. Now answer this question honestly. How did you feel afterward?
I would dare say you felt happy, relieved, loved by God, grateful, over joyed, etc. If you didn’t, then there is something missing.
Just a reminder, if you haven’t already, be sure to pray again and express your gratitude for the miracle you received.
It is a big question amongst members of our faith, “How do you know if what you are feeling is from God or it is just an emotional response.” What I have heard is, if you put yourself in order with keeping the commandments, saying your personal prayers, and reading the scriptures, that through those things you can make yourself receptive to the spirit. And through much practice you eventually learn to dicern the difference between the two.
So, I can see your concern over our “feelings” (how do we truly trust our feelings) but when I have felt these things it was when I had placed myself in the proper situation.
Perhaps it isn’t that we LDS say that following the commandments is a saving situation, but perhaps following the commandments puts us into a more spiritual setting to be more receptive to God’s word.
Ralph, just want to comment on the homosexual as Christian reference. First of all, this is off topic, but I think brings out some important items. Of course we believe gays can become Christian. What follows is that once they accept Christ, they are to leave their behavior behind and follow Christ. If they don’t leave that behind, can they be Christian? Well, again, yes, they can be. But I would have to wonder about their sincerity to God and his word.
Bringing in the topic of the post here, if it is a lie, if homosexuality is a lie, if whatever is a lie and someone tries to endorse or practice it, it is up to the rest of the church and those involved to speak up and teach and encourage the person to leave that way of life or belief and follow Christ. If they reject this teaching, then I would not call them Christian.
So in short, while they may still believe in Christ, they may still need correction from those who are more mature.
Jacob5 -
I have a hard time with your statement that if you “put yourself in order with keeping the commandments” that you can eventually gain the ability to discern between right and wrong. The issue that I have is that the Bible teaches that we are all suffer from sin and that none of us clean without being made so by Christ:
“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (I John 1:8)
“For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 5:19-21)
According to the Biblical worldview, God’s commandments don’t exist as a test by which we can prove our righteousness to God. The commandments exist to keep sin in check and yet show us our own condemnation so that we will want Christ more and become righteous by faith in him(Romans 5, Gal 3)
There is still the question that hasn’t been answered satisfactorially. Why do varied groups claim to know the “truth” through spiritual epiphany and feelings and yet their “truth” is conflict with the teachings of the mainstream LDS church.
I have mentioned John Wesley and the early Methodist movement. I have known pentecostals who have claimed the same. Every cult that I met on my mission used the same teaching to gain converts.
What about fundamentalist Mormons? I knew a family that left the mainstream LDS to follow the Allred group. They were descent people who valued God, and yet gained testimonies that the mainstream LDS church had gone astray, that Owen Allred was God’s prophet, and that they needed to live polygamy in order to please God. Why didn’t your method work for them?
Ed, that is easy. You must be obedience to the commandments also. You must obey Gods law to know that the fruits of the spirit are coming from God. If you are outside the lines of the law, then you are feeling your will and not the will of God.
To know if something is a lie, you cannot be deceived yourself. You all continue to say, “According to Biblical worldview”… who cares what the world thinks. We are commanded to be IN the world, not OF the world. I live “according to Biblical Gods view.” I’m not certain how you can claim to have the truth when “according to Biblical worldview” there isn’t even any further communications with God. How can you pretend to know what God is thinking by reading a few select books of inspired men, canonized by the Catholic church? Don’t get me wrong, I accept the Bible as the word of God, so far as it is translated correctly, but with so many people interpreting it a different way, how do you know your interpretation is correct without God being able to confirm it?
Michael P,
I think you missed my point. Aaron said he would like to get some testimonies from Fundamentalists to show us that they have the same testimony as the mainstream LDS church - ie same attitude, attributes and words. This was (in my understanding) to show us that we are wrong with our teachings of the feelings of the Holy Ghost - which then can be used to try and show we are wrong altogether. My point was that there are people out there that identify with being Evangelical Christian and have the same testimony as other Evangelical Christians but are excluded from the mainstream Ev movement because of their lifestyle/slightly differing opinions/etc. I used homosexuals because I know SOME (not all) on this site are totally against them being classed as Christian if they are living in a homosexual relationship. Just because two groups with a similar or same background uses the same words/attitutes/etc does not show that one, both or neither are correct.
As for homosexuals being Christian - The Uniting Church in Australia (compromising Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregational Union) have decided that they will accept homosexuals into the fold and ordain them as ministers. This happened a couple of years ago around the same time as the Church of England in America decided to ordain a homosexual man as a Bishop or priest (I can’t remember which but he leads the parish). So there are some Christian churches that are starting to accept openly homosexuals as Christian and allowing them to live their lifestyle while partaking of the Christian benefits (for lack of a better word).
Chuck5000,
Just two comments one everyone has a worldview, that is a view of the world, as you stated we are commanded to be in the world but not of it. Thus how we view the world, our worldview, should be shaped by this. Everyone in the world has a worldview, it is what shapes this view of the world around us that differs.
Also you state that you believe in the bible so long as it is translated correctly. I may be mistaken but I believe the word you were looking for is transmitted, as any student of language will say that Bible translations such as the KJV, NASB, and ESV are accurate translations from Greek and Hebrew to English. Christians too make this statement as we reject the New World Translation and the Joseph Smith Translation, as errors in translation from the original languages into English can be seen by any first year student of Greek or Hebrew. However I must wonder why you doubt the transmission, that is the copying of the words in the same language is in question? Is it because God could not preserve His written word, or some other reason? Also if you claim that there have been changes how do you account for the changes in the Mormon scriptures, mainly the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine & Covenants, as anything different?
Lautensack
The way we can accurately determine the difference between a worldview and a biblical view is to search the scriptures. This also applies to determining spiritual truth as well as the scriptures themselves. Test the scripture with scripture.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).
The differences between the BoM & the Bible are very obvious. The thing about the Bible is we don’t have to pray about it to prove to ourselves that it is true. As Christians we accept it as true. It would be sinful to ask God if his word were true. Besides that there is plenty of evidence to prove it is true.
“Jesus replied, ‘You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God’ ” (Matthew 22:29).
“A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead” (Proverbs 21:16).
Again, you can’t say you believe the bible and then question if its words are true.
Everyone is at a different place on their walk with God. Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little. I’m one of those fundamental Mormons that has a testimony of the BoM and Joseph Smith. I left the LDS Church and went to the EV churches and realize I do not need a Church to practice my religion. From my experience with both sets of people intolerance would describe most people in the various churches if you try to have a religious conversation with them. If I wanted to convince or “SAVE” someone living a “lie” I would try and understand how they came to believe what they believe. What teachings they grew up with and what do they love most about their religion. I would listen and get to know that person. But 99% of the people just don’t want to go there. So who are we to teach the meat of the gospel too? You guys argue over the tickest things. Our purpose is to build the Kingdom of God does anyone even care what that is about?
Chuck,
This is the second time that you have misunderstood what I have posted (and I am starting to wonder if you are just looking for reasons to get angry). The Biblical worldview is NOT what the world thinks about the Bible (I agree with you, who cares what the world thinks), but rather what the God through the Bible says about the world around us.
At any rate, your answer to my question still doesn’t cut it, even though it is the same that I always hear from Mormons and use to give myself. The answer is lacking for two reasons:
1) Your reasoning is circular (you are arguing on grounds that are still in dispute). Essentially you are saying that it works right for the LDS because they have the right teachings, and wrong for everyone else because they are wrong. Anybody can make the same argument and conclude that you spiritual epiphany is from your own making because you have the wrong teachings (as many Jehovah’s witnesses, oneness Pentecostals, and fundamentalist Mormons do).
2) The second problem with your response is more fundamental and underscores a self-righteous attitude that so many LDS have. You speak of people who are “oustide the lines of the law” not having any promise. The issue is that the main theme of the New Testament is that ALL MEN are outside the bounds of the law. (Romans 3:9, Romans 3:23, Gal 3:22, etc). That means you, me, every prophet, and everyone else on the earth who has ever lived. When we try to say that we are right with God’s law (or that you can be right with God’s law), we deceive ourselves (I John 1:8), and pride takes root in us (Romans 2:19-23, Matt 7:3-5). When we undertake an honest self-inspection, we painfully realize that we fall short. Given that we are all under sin and commit sin, we are all outside the bounds of God’s law, and your argument falls apart. Since nobody is within the bounds of the law, nobody can claim the promise you make.
Please do not misunderstand. I am not angry, I just think you all talk in circles so I can never get any clarification on where you stand.
woenigma, I agree with most of your comments. But none of you have yet to show why you believe you have the truth. The most common response is, “because the Biblical worldview shows” or “the Bible says.” Yet I have shown biblical reference that contradicts how you interpret the scriptures. So again, how do you know you have the truth and that your interpretation of Gods word is not skewed?
mikeb, you say “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching…” yet you reject the Book of Mormon saying “The differences between the BoM & the Bible are very obvious.” How? The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. It testifies that he is the savior of the world. How does that conflict with the Bible?
Ed, you say “ALL MEN are outside the bounds of th