Comments on: Faith-Promoting Perceptions

By: Lautensack

Lautensack — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:33:29 +0000

Ralph,
I do not know any instances where God has told His children to steal the word borrow in Exodus 11:2 is “vyiShalu” from the root sha’al (Shin Alep Lamed) which is a Qal Imperfect Third Common Plural Plus Vav Consecutive of the word “To ask for, to inquire of, or to seek.” I am not sure why this was translated to borrow in the KJV. However the Hebrew word to steal is “ganav”(Gimal Nun Bet) as you can see the roots of the two words are not even close. The word for borrow in this sense is that you speak, to receive something lent in hopes to return it, come from the final word of Deuteronomy 28:12. The word is “taliveh” is a Qal Imperfect Second Masculine Singular from the root “lavah” (Lamed Vav He). Also in Exodus 12:36 it says that the Egyptians gave them what they asked for. Again the word “vayashaaloom” from “sha’al” is used here. This time a Hiphil Imperfect Third Masculine Plural Plus Vav Consecutive Plus Third Masculine Plural Suffix. This means that what was asked for was given. So no, God has never commanded men to steal, nor to lie. Sorry for the lesson in language, and to answer your questions, if the Lord has said thou shalt not, then I must not no matter how much I feel as though I should do otherwise. God has spoken, should I deny His word because I feel otherwise?

Lautensack

By: Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon Lindbloom — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:08:48 +0000

I feel I must contend earnestly for the truth, here. Ralph wrote,

A Biblical reference of God commanding someone to steal is found in –
Exodus 11:2 Speak now in the ears of the people, and let every man borrow of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.
This also indicates God commanded people to lie, as the Israelites were leaving Egypt NEVER to return – In other words they were taking the jewellery for keeps, NOT borrowing.

Lying is a flaw in humankind, not an attribute of God (Numbers 23:19). God’s Word tells us He will not tempt people to sin (James 1:13). His Word also tells us that lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, etc. Because we know God is holy (Revelation 4:8) and righteous (John 17:25), we must look at any text that seems to suggest otherwise with a critical eye.

A concordance definition of the word here translated as “borrow” says, “to inquire; by impl. to request; by extens. to demand.” This definition is borne out in most Bible translations. The only one I could find that translated the word “borrow” was the KJV. Additionally, the biblical text indicates that God gave the Israelites “favor” before the Egyptians, which caused the Egyptians to give their riches gladly. In the end, while the Israelites had begun by asking for (and planning) only three days to go into the wilderness to worship and sacrifice to their God, the Egyptians themselves drove the Israelites away for good. If God’s instructions to His people look like He was advocating deception, it is only because we know the end of the story and are privy to knowing ahead of time what God knew all along.

By: Michael P

Michael P — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 16:02:46 +0000

Ralph, first, the Isaiah 4:1 is certainly not conclusive, and I would be hesitant to bet on it as you present.

Second, I hope you see the problem in your response to me. You go to the church for confirmation. We go to the Bible. We may then go to other sources, such as other more mature believers, commentaries, etc. Of course prayer is a part of it from the beginning, but our first source is the Bible, as Acts 17:11 demonstrates.

And yes, the answer really proves my initial response: once the church tells you. You may think God speaks through the church, but you cannot act until the church gives the go ahead. Do you test the church, or do you take it at its word?

By: Ralph

Ralph — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:33:51 +0000

Lautensack,

A Biblical reference of God commanding someone to steal is found in –
Exodus 11:2 Speak now in the ears of the people, and let every man borrow of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.
This also indicates God commanded people to lie, as the Israelites were leaving Egypt NEVER to return – In other words they were taking the jewellery for keeps, NOT borrowing.

As for your other questions, I would choose God over my parents, in fact my father once told me to do that if it ever came down to a choice. Although I love my parents very much if for some reason God told me to kill them then I would. Would you? How far does your faith go? I do not know of any instances in the Bible of God telling anyone to commit adultery or to blaspheme and go into idolatry so I know God would never do that, so if I got any impression/thoughts/feelings like that I know it would not be from God.

MichaelP,

Always the ‘hard-to-explain’ answers. I know that the prophet is a man of God and tells us what God wants for the Church. So I need to determine the difference between my thoughts/feelings and what God says through the prophet. Sometimes it can be different (and it has) but that is mainly for the ‘small’ things. But for the ‘bigger’ things like polygamy, I will listen to the prophet’s voice as that is where God has said it will come from. So in part answer to your question I would wait until the church says its OK. That’s the best I can explain it, and I know you will probably twist it to make it say I am listening to the Church, but for me, its from God as I would first seek confirmation if I was told to take part in it. As for your comment to Jacob5, according to Isaiah 4:1, it will be an accepted thing of the future in general population, so maybe for the church it will again become practice. Only God knows as He sees the bigger picture.

By: Michael P

Michael P — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:15:39 +0000

Actually, Jacob, its not moot. Ralph said this “I will do whatever God wants me to do. I may not like it sometimes but my faith will allow me to do anything at all that God wants” in regards to plural marriage. He is leaving it open for its practice in the future.

To us, it is cut and dried, no polygamy. To you, its not so simple. Yes, its banned now, but what would happen if your church said it was OK? That would be speaking for God, and then it would be practiced. And what would be the requirements? Ralph might be insinuating it would be necessary (maybe not). But could it be?

As to the God speaking thing, who would say it was of God and allow polygamy. Ralph said if God spoke to him, he would practice it. But would he be excommunicated if the church didn’t agree?

I hope you see this is not a moot point, and has important conclusions.

By: Jacob5

Jacob5 — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 07:00:01 +0000

I love the rhetorical what if statements. I remember, what if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it to? There have been instances where immediate commandments seem to contradict previous commandments. “Thou shalt not kill.” was given before the Israelites were told to wipe out all other inhabitants in Canaan. David was allowed to eat of the sacrificial offerings that were only to be eaten by the priests. But in many cases there were purposes for them. The people in Canaan would had in many cases had developed inquitous lifestyles that were counter to Gods purposes. David had to stay alive to fulfill his position as King and for obvious other future reasons.
Let’s throw this into the works. How many people here have been circumcised (based on a religious principle, not a clinical principle)? But was it not a commandment? You may say that Christ did away with that. I would say no. The practice of circumcision was still carried on with the Jewish christians who complained that the non-Jewish christians were breaking the commandments by not being circumcised. Now did the apostles discontinue circumcision? No, they simply said that it was not necessary for the those not of the Jewish people.
You all are arguing a moot point. The fact is that plural marriage is no longer practiced on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Those who had already been sealed to their wives were allowed to continue to live out their lives in that situation, but no new sealings were sanctioned or ordained by the church authorities. It even came to the point where people were excommunicated.
These so-called “sects” were simply people who split off because they didn’t agree with the church leaders discontinuance and eventually split up into severy small groups that wouldn’t even count for 3% or our churches current membership, and that is if all those different offshoots were actually grouped together.

By: Lautensack

Lautensack — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 06:23:27 +0000

Ralph,
So if God asked you to murder your parents you would, ok. What about my other question commit adultery? Just for kicks lets throw in another, if God asked you to commit blaspheme and idolatry would you? Also where in the bible does God command men to steal? I would ask, where does He command men to murder but that becomes a tricky subject, distinguishing between murder and killing.

Lautensack

By: Michael P

Michael P — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 12:23:35 +0000

Ralph, I can accept the criticism. It is fair,a nd I certainly do not mean to intentionally distort. Though can I also ask this: under what circumstances would you be placed under the difficult position of whether or not to practice polygamy? Would you listen to God apart from the Mormon church, or would you only listen after the church says its OK?

By: Ralph

Ralph — Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:12:56 +0000

MichaelP, I like what you have done with my statement. You said "You also state you would do anything your church told you to do? (emphasis mine). I said "I will do whatever God wants me to do." BIG difference. I know you don't accept that I may believe in the true God, but still misquoting like that doea not help your credability. Please be careful how you quote others next time. Lautensack, As for your last questions - if that is what God asks of me then I will do it. He has asked people to steal and murder in the past, so there is a precident that He might do it in future.

By: Lautensack

Lautensack — Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:19:13 +0000

Ralph,
So according to your position Christ might very well have died for any number of churches, as a man would die for any one of wives, even though the words used in the Greek are in the singular.

As for polygamists starting Judaism and thus being the forerunners to Christianity, I never said that God could not use Evil men, in fact that is all He uses. He uses men who are vial, wicked, and have offended His holy name. However we must never Justify their sin, Peter Denied Christ, Paul was a murderer, as was David, Moses sinned against God, Abram temporally lacked faith in God, thus entered into polygamy, Jacob was just a wicked sinner all of His life. God used evil men and until we see the sinfulness of sin we do not know how truly damning it is, for God is angry at the wicked every day. I can say that these men were wicked as I am wicked, and yet God used them, at the same time I can disdain their sins.

Finally yes, God has asked me to do some very difficult things that I didn’t like, but I did them anyways why because He told me to in His Holy Word. Perhaps polygamy is something too close to home, so allow me to change the question, if God told you to steal, would you? If God told you to commit adultery, would you? If God told you to murder your parents would you?

Lautensack