Bill and I discuss reactions to yesterday’s post (6m 24s).
A related item: Some Mormons had their own attempt at humor (link no longer works) describing a “slow-track” that enables those who are not “top-level celestial material” to “earn a temple recommend” stamped with an “S”. Funny upon a first read, but more than anything it’s sad… Update: I’ve added an update to the April Fool’s post.
God bless you for your ministry. I actually just stumbled upon it via Google. I am literally hours away from boarding a plane to fly out to CA. to attend my sisters funeral and I was Googling the Mormon church there. Anyway, as an ex-Mormon, I will visit this site more later when time allows. Grant
I think the greatest benefit to me since I’ve been posting here and interacting with the Mormon folks who also post, is gaining an insight into the Mormon mind-set and thought process. To be quite frank, I’ve had at least one occasion where I thought my head was going to explode in absoulute frustration at the “logic” behind the comments made by Mormons. I’ve come to realize that when a Mormon accepts, as true, that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus and that this vision led to the “restoration of the true gospel”, everything else (doctrine, history, revelations) will be accepted as true, no matter how disturbing, ridiculous and/or inconsistent. So within Mormonism “the vision” thing is always the fall back position. I was helped to see this in a recent post at The Mormon Curtain. The originator of the article, Saul, wrote: “It is pure GENIUS to arrive at this foundational fall-back position. That is how General Authorities retain their testimony. They rely on a truth that cannot be refuted. Joseph saw god and Jesus. How do they know? They personally asked god and Jesus, and got warm fuzzies. EVERYTHING ELSE is COROLLARY.”
Yeah, Falcon, I’ll agree that the more I have seen of Mormonism the more I see of their tactics. One of the big ones is the idea of the burning in the bosom, which is truthfully something that cannot be adequately refuted. How can anyone tell someone else they their feelings are wrong when they do not know the feelings? No matter how much evidence pointing to the contrary, the feelings cannot be refuted.
Secondly, Joseph Smith’s vision also cannot be refuted as much as it cannot be verified. From what I understand, the story evolved, much as a fish story might, and the product (BoM and Mormonism) is filled with too many holes to be considered Biblical, but because we cannot prove it DIDN’T happen, they have an out.
Thirdly, all too often they resort at trying to refute the Bible. They equate problems they see with the Bible to problems within Mormonism. How many times have we heard “I’m not trying to say the Bible is wrong, but…” or “Its the same tactic used by atheists…” or something like that?
Its interesting, really, to see it defended. In the end, I am not sure we can do anything to change their mind. That has to be done internally themselves and with God. The only thing we can do is plant the seeds, and allow God to sow it in their hearts.
Michael,
What your suggesting here is called the argument from “equivalency”. In-other-words when evidence is provided that proves that the BoM is not a historical book but a work of fiction, Mormons will attempt to find something in the Bible that can’t be verified historically. The conclusion being “therefore the Bible and the BoM are equivalent”. Also, in the Mormon world there are two kinds of evidence: evidence from God and evidence from man. DNA, linguistic, archaeological and historical evidence is from man and therefore not valid. Only that which is “revealed” is valid. I often ask our Mormon friends why, if the restored gospel is what was practiced by first century Christians isn’t it in the Bible and I get no answer regarding plural marrage, progression to godhood, temple rituals on and on. I guess we could claim that there is a mother ship hovering over the earth and people are translated on a regular basis to have truths revealed to them and then their memories of the event are erased. It happened in first century Christianity. I know because it was revealed to me. Why not?
I am often curious to read some of the posts which make some humorous, yet inaccurate assumptions about members of the Church. For example, it is alleged roughly as follows, ”the only reason that members of the Church remain faithful or somehow keep their testimonies intact is by a ‘onetime special warm feeling’ they revert back to and whatever else happens or is presented (in the form of contradiction) they can dismiss or otherwise discredit because of this memorable burning”. Wow! If it were only that easy! If the leaders of the Church were convinced that was all it would take, why would they do what they do? The Church spends hundreds of millions of dollars on locating, building, and operating a world-wide seminary and institute system (CES: Church Educational System) in order to teach the gospel. Now before you disingenuously insinuate that this is the self-preserving, brainwash-laden technique employed by the Church, you have to examine the fruits. You know them, you probably have the stats in shorter reach than I do, you know the ones that show LDS youth, as well as members in general to have, among other things, better than (US Statistics) average (highest level reached) education, BTA incomes, BTA birth rate, lower than average death rate, lower than average high school dropouts, drug use, criminal history, cancer rates, and the list goes on and on and on. Now, I expect there will be an argument made as soon as this posts that these things are irrelevant and have no bearing on whether Mormonism is false or not. However, with that in mind, let’s perhaps acknowledge that the lifestyle (which is most likely consistent with most Christians) might just be a better way to live on its face. And since God himself is the only one who REALLY knows the truth of what is argued here everyday, be careful not to attack what you may or may NOT know for sure.
Clarity wrote, “And since God himself is the only one who REALLY knows the truth of what is argued here everyday, be careful not to attack what you may or may NOT know for sure.”
One, is this an admission that Mormonism may be completely and utterly false?
Two, in light of such a statement is anything knowable about God at all?
Finally, is not such a statement contradictory to the one made by Truth Himself, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” and “When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for He will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He will take what is mine and declare it to you.”
(John 8:31-32;16:13-15)
Lautensack
Clarity,
Could you please provide me with some statistics for Utah regarding the incidence of child abuse and the number of prescriptions written for mothers’ little helpers. All of what you wrote about the Mormon Church says little about whether or not it has a modicum of truth attached to it as regards the nature of God and man, the person and work of Jesus Christ, not to mention the historisity of the BoM. I could go on.
You guys are so great! I mean it, I admire your passion. Were it not for the futility in the purpose of your cause I would have to applaud the fervor of your effort. Would you like an honest assessment? Just a few questions. What do you think it is that fuels the 50-60 thousand missionaries that now serve at their own expense throughout the world?? What is it that makes the 28,000 or so bishops (equivalent/similar to a pastor-full time commitment) serve a congregation of 400-600 people, without pay, and at significant sacrifice of his family, for usually 5 plus years at a time?? What is it that compels members to consecrate themselves to the point of rendering their very lives in the service of their fellow beings?? What is it that moves the Church collectively to donate hundreds of millions of dollars to humanitarian causes around the world?? What is it that propels the Church forward in advancing (and not without notable opposition) perhaps one of the strictest codes of moral behavior/conduct among all Christian faiths?? YOUR ANSWERS?? (1) Deception!! (2) Brainwashing! ? (3) Ignorance. (4) Naivety /Gullibility . Are you kidding? Or, could it be that these really know something that you don’t (or, more correctly, won’t). The REAL answer is; their commitment to follow the Lord Jesus Christ and take upon them HIS name and always remember Him, that they may have His Spirit to be with them. AND IF THIS BE THE CASE, and the Lord is with them, then…who shall stay His hand? “The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; … the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.”
AND, If they are truly deceived then why be ye troubled, “for this too shall come to naught.” Or will it????
Clarity67,
I do not believe we have ever doubted your sincerity or the sincerity of any Mormon, just as I do not doubt that of Jehovahs Witnesses. People will do a lot of things because of their beliefs but simply because you have missionaries, we do too, and technically every JW is a missionary so their unpaid force is far greater than 60 thousand missionaries. We could argue semantics of paid ministry that would get us no where. As for the strict code of moral behavior were not the pharisees the moral standard of the day? As for humanitarian aid, what is it that moves atheist groups to do the very same thing? As for why we are troubled that you are deceived, why does that 60 thousand member missionary force exist? If you believe us to be so deceived as we belong to the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10) why do you proselytize? Our reason is simple because we love God, that the name of the Lord might be glorified in all the nations, and due to our love for fellow man.
I will repost my questions since you didn’t respond to any of them.
Clarity wrote, “And since God himself is the only one who REALLY knows the truth of what is argued here everyday, be careful not to attack what you may or may NOT know for sure.”
One, is this an admission that Mormonism may be completely and utterly false?
Two, in light of such a statement is anything knowable about God at all?
Finally, is not such a statement contradictory to the one made by Truth Himself, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” and “When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears He will speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for He will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He will take what is mine and declare it to you.”
(John 8:31-32;16:13-15)
Clarity,
I submit that even though your intentions are sincere, you cheapen Mormonism greatly. Please, allow me, a non-LDS person, to give you an outside persepective on your faith.
The Mormon narrative is large and sweeping. It concerns that which is above and that which is below. The price paid by the first Mormons was too great, to simply be part of establishing another charitable organization.
If Joseph Smith was correct then God did something extremely wonderful in upstate New York in the 1820’s. He reestablished His priesthood and covenants . . . He reestablished Christianity the way it was supposed to be and the way that it was. Mankind need not dwell in darkness anymore; we all can partake of the same gospel principles that our Heavenly Father followed. The apostolic authority of the restored church is absolutely necessary to achieve the full extent of our Heavenly Father’s blessings in the afterlife. If temple ceremonies, proper baptisms, and the laying on of hands were not all that important (and mere good works or “fruit” is) then the first Mormons who restored these things suffered in vain as these are the particulars of Mormonsism that set it apart from the apostate churches. God could have simply called Joseph Smith to one of the many denominations that were doing already good works.
Or . . . the whole thing is a fraud. But good works are not by themselves the LDS gospel. Anyone, including Mormons, will freely admit that the LDS church does not have a lock on doing good deeds. The type of stuff contained in the Miracle of Forgiveness is supposed to be the type of thing that grants the greatest possible blessings in this life, and in the life to come.
Clarity,
The problem with your presentation is that, again, it says nothing about the truthfullness of the message preached by Mormonism. I think the crux of the situation was summed-up by a BYU type I was listening to as he trained a group of LDS missionaries. His message to them was that you always lead the prospect to that “little grove of trees” meaning the place where Joseph Smith reportedly had his vision. Here’s the difference, as Christians we always lead people to the Cross of Jesus Christ. So while Mormonism stands on the person and word of Joseph Smith, as Christians, we stand on Jesus Christ and the Word of God. The fact that Mormons want to lead people to Joseph Smith rather than Jesus Christ is quite telling. Your pride in the Mormon organization is remarkable but it’s built on a shakey foundation, that is Joseph Smith and his often changed and adapted story.
I was a Mormon for 35 yrs. live in an area that is 98% Mormon and I wake up every morning searching for a glimmer of hope that “the church empire” may fall and free the captives from bondage. I appreciate good humor like the next, but this was on the side of sick and wrong.
To say that the wind was let out of my sails… doesn’t even begin to touch it, I was heart sick… fooled? Yes.
I Adore you Aaron, you are a great evangelist for our Lord and God – Jesus Christ just try to remember that it is nothing short of a miracle when someone “comes out” and you need to maintain a level of truth and integrity, because it is virtually non-existent in the “empire”. ALWAYS maintain that vast and constant difference no matter what day it is.
Arguements regarding the ‘fruits’ of Mormonism fail in light of bad fruits that exist. Here are a few examples. Utah has one of the highest perscription anti-depressant use among all states. The study regarding high education rate has been shown to be methodolicially unsound. Non-Mormon businesses in Idaho and Utah often fail or struggle in the face of Mormon nepotism. Yes, the church does give much to humanitarian efforts around the country and the world. This is to be expected from the second richest non-profit organization in the world behind the catholic church. Many Christian churches also give. The only difference between other groups and the church seems to be that the LDS church is the first to publicize how much it gives. Didn’t Jesus have something to say about this kind of giving?…
Clarity, likewise, I appreciate your honesty and clarity, if you will, regarding your faith and your discussions. I have been reading the discussion you and Lautenstack have been having and appreciate the tone from both sides. Unfortunately, that tone is hard to find in such discussions online.
I give this response, I hope, in the same sense of mutual respect and love that you and Lautenstack share. I would add another possible response to your list that is not related to brainwashing, deception, ignorance, or naivity. There are three different answers, really.
1) This is the only thing they have known.
2) Peer pressure.
3) A sincere desire to become a god.
Your ultimate response could indeed be true: a deep love of Christ may exist. But could it not also be true that this love spread out of these above possibilities? In other words, they love because they are supposed to and they think they can become a god, not out of a deep love for Christ directly and primarilly?
The first two of my three are not isolated to Mormons, as I have known many Christians who followed the lead for awhile, only to fall out or rebel. Pastor’s kids, for instance are a great example.
But, even still, an entire society and network is built around maintaining the ordinances in Mormonism, and I honestly believe the pressure to “succeed” is greater there. Further, there is that added “benefit” to get your own world.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this theory, because I see it as a very real possibility, likelihood even, within your faith.
Thanks.
May, I take your comment seriously and I am really very sorry for any pain that was caused. I hope that people can see, from the extent of the work I have put forth to engage the Miracle of Forgiveness, that I really do take it seriously. Please see the update to the April 1 post for more of my heart on this.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
I thought I should comment on what I see as the motivation of those of us who engage in counter-cult ministries or Christian apologetics. While some, I am sure, out of the best of motives would like to see the LDS empire crumble, I’m guessing that most of us have as a motivation a desire to have Mormons come to salvation through the Christ of the Bible. So when I read Clarity’s boasts regarding the vastness and resources of the LDS empire and how our puny little attempts cannot bring them down, I want him and the other LDS folks who pass by here to know that it’s introducing people to the Christ of the Bible and the message of salvation through the Cross that is first and foremost in our minds. Jesus said something like “What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but losses his soul.” So instead of building a religious empire, we seek to build the Kingdom of God by bringing people to the Gospel as presented in the New Testament.
Amen, Falcon. May we never boast in any earthly resources or powers.
David said to Clarity,
Let me ask this, How could Joseph Smith say, No man can see God and live without the priesthood? Then when JS did not have this priesthood he went on to see God and live, He saw God in the first vision, so he says. Rick b
Can we keep this thread closer to the topics of repentance and forgiveness, and our yearning that the Mormon people would be freed from the bondage that comes from books like Miracle of Forgiveness?
It seems from the audio that y’all understand the painful response many had to the April Fool’s post. Anyway, I forgive you Aaron. Something Bill said in the audio rang true with me: that our lives as Christians give us the ‘freedom to do what we aught’. This is how I feel; through Christ I am forgiven in spite of my sins. As time goes on my desire to sin has become less and less, and I am convicted to do His will. Don’t get me wrong, I still make mistakes, but my desire to do wrong has gone way down since becoming a Christian. Indeed, the world is less grey and I am much quicker to recognize my mistakes and take corrective action rather than giving excuses for my behavior. Nothing I have done merits this change of heart, but it is real. It really is ‘nonsense to the Greek’ as Paul said. Unless one is a Christian and has this change of heart take place it makes zero sense. But it has happened to me. I think this is the real ‘miracle of forgiveness’.
When I was a LDS missionary 15 years ago, we were explicitly told not to read Kimball’s book. Why? We were told that if we dwelt too much on our sins, our guilt would impede our ability to work. Last fall I was listening to the Sunday afternoon session of LDS conference and one GA’s talk worked to the storied crescendo of what to do when we are faced with our own mountain of sin. The buildup was similar to many Christian sermons. However, instead of telling the Mormon masses to turn to Jesus, he advised them to follow Kimball’s advice and repent, repent, repent…stay on the treadmill.
It is so sad to think about how these wonderful God-fearing people are kept from the greatest gift of all…a regenerative relationship with Christ. We are saved and forgiven simply because of what Christ did, not after all we can do. Because at the end of the day, in our hearts we know we can always do more, and we will continue to sin no matter how hard we try. The real ‘miracle of forgiveness’ comes through Jesus and Jesus alone.
Eric,
Amen! Reptentance is basically turning around and going a different direction. For good or bad, I had my training in Catholic school to fall back on when I became a Christian after several years of following my own path. That is, I had drilled into me as a Catholic school kid in the 1950s, a deep sense of morality. The problem with my prior training was that I was always in that hopeless condition of sin and death. It was very much like what Martin Luther experienced before he had his break-through understanding of God’s mercy, grace, love and forgiveness through Jesus Christ. I don’t know if Mormons misunderstand the life we have in Christ on purpose or if they really can’t comprehend what we’re talking about regarding our walk in/with Christ. I battle my former training everyday because, while I’m grateful for the strong sense of right and wrong it has provided me, I have to keep remembering that the blood of Jesus continually cleanses me from all (my) unrighteousness. Paul talked about how some imposters had filtered into the Church because they wanted to spy-out the freedom that the Believers had in Christ. He says so should we continue in sin so that grace might abound? And the answer, may it never be. The motivation for Mormons, it seems, is to work, work, work to purify themselves with the hope of attaining a position of godhood. Their’s is a system that is not the Gospel of the Bible. It is truly another gospel. Our motivation is not to raise to the level of godhood but, as my old catechism said, to know, love and serve God in this world and the next.
Well, I am want to explain.
Lautensack,
As for the post about God being the ONLY one who really knows, you know I don’t believe that from my previous posts. It was a smug attempt at removing everyone’s authoritative assertions from an otherwise combative stalemate. Didn’t mean to throw you such a curve. Sorry.
Falcon,
I apologize for the manner of presentation, truly not intending to “boast of vast resources”, rather, simply attempting to convey through the examples I used, the depth and commitment that members feel toward their Savior and what really compels them.
While everything I said was truthful (and I don’t apologize for stating the facts), I absolutely recognize, as was correctly posted, that many others do so much and Mormons certainly have no exclusive franchise on good deeds. Simply put, I didn’t mean to offend in my writing, but only to address an assertion (deception, brainwashing, ignorance, and naivety/gullibility) which is repeated as a common thread on this blog. Further, I agree with David and admit that the approach I used cheapens Mormonism and what it offers all Christians. I did so ONLY trying to exact a more plausible explanation than the four answers I (for you, generally) provided.
Michael P,
I am sincerely grateful for your words and accept your (3) suggestions as not only possible, but actually, likely and real. I appreciate very much the honest approach and hope to answer these in the same attitude. Most members, born in the Church, are definitely trained and encouraged from infancy to “follow” (brevity). At some point, as you indicated, all children, youth, or even adults, will test their wings, breach boundaries, and explore their identity and character, and LDS members are no exception. I will concede that strong efforts are made to encourage children to conform, while at some point they will either need to fly out of the nest on their own, or not.
CONTD.
As for peer pressure, this can go both ways. I am actually thankful for the great friends that my kids have (both member and non-member of the Church) and actually count on “good” peer pressure. With that said, I know that some are unsure of themselves and may simply be going through the motions, not really because they believe fully, but for appearances only. I think that applies to many adults as well. The Church has, admittedly, built a culture that can, at times, be demanding (high expectations of service) and literally overwhelming. Unfortunately, this sometimes will lead people to adopt a “go with the crowd” policy, but likely no different than any other Church or religion. Pressure does exist (for example to serve a mission, or accept a calling to serve) and expectations are high, but this can work as a positive opportunity for people to grow and stretch themselves.
Now as for the third- I think this one is given the most attention because of the very idea being in many ways, heretical, blasphemous, or offensive to God. Without throwing scriptures at each other, I would like to perhaps address what is so reprehensible in the very idea. First it is not only presumptive, but the epitome of arrogance for anyone to make himself “as God” or “like God” for there is only one God. We are so horribly sinful and He is so perfectly righteous, He full of light, and us wallowing in darkness, etc. Briefly said, we are so very far apart, and so varying in our characteristics, it is basically impossible to see any way we could ever be like Him. What if eternal life truly is to know Him so well that we become like Him, and one with Him in the sense that we become partakers of every good gift, mansions, and so on… and live the life that He lives- eternal? Does it diminish God to give this gift of eternal life to the ones He loves? Is He less God or does He lose anything if he grants power, dominion, eternal life to His children?
Now to your suggestion, does the idea sell? YES, I think you’re right. But not because of greed or vanity or some covetous aspiration, but rather a sincere desire to return to a loving Father in Heaven that (we hope and believe) wants to do that for His children. Not because of seeking to acquire God’s power, or to equate one’s self with His goodness and glory, but rather to prove ourselves worthy before Him, through repentance in the name of the Lord, to be in His presence, “that where He is, we may be also.”
Let me not fail to acknowledge that (if at all possible) it only will be through Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice, not through an elaborate merit system or checklist of “must do’s”. Therefore, we have enough to focus on exercising faith and repentance in this life than dwelling on this issue at length. I think where we may knock each other around here is that I do not believe that the idea is offensive to God, in fact quite the contrary. On the other hand, the fact that I do not recognize the idea as being offensive to God is even more offensive to you than the idea itself. Correct?
Clarity67,
I knew you did not believe your statement entirely, or at all, as you and your church make very exclusive truth claims. I was simply demonstrating the futility of such a statement in light of an origination that makes such claims, and those who claim to believe the bible.
As for your final paragraphs you say you do what you do “to prove ourselves worthy before Him,” yet not by some “elaborate merit system” but “through Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice,” please correct me if I am taking you out of context. The question then is how does one prove themselves worthy, is it not through, according to your religion, temple ordinances and ceremonies, along with living a good lifestyle? Is that not the fundamental way offered by your church to prove your worth to God? How is this not a fundamental checklist of “must do’s” and “must not do’s” for that matter? The explanation looks good until we examine Mormon doctrine, specifically the three heavens. If it is only by “Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice” then God must allot degrees of salvation, something like I will only save these people so far, these here a little further, and these final ones to the uttermost(exaltation). This clearly does not seem to be what you believe, yet is exactly what is exists were biblical soteriology (Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria) mixed with the Mormon doctrine of Heaven. (Telestial, Terestial, and Celestial) Thus in order for the Mormon doctrine of heaven to work it must work as explained or based upon a meritorious system of works, by which we attain our own worthiness and righteousness perhaps sometimes with the help of Christ yet also apart from Him.
Lautensack
You raise a very profound idea upon which I am happy to explain my remarks. First, I believe that we both recognize that were it not for the atonement of Christ, all of us must have remained in a sinful, fallen state from which there would be no escape. Thankfully, the Lord’s sacrifice satisfies the demands for both laws of mercy and justice that rescues us from both death and hell. We are ALL redeemed from physical death through the gift of resurrection (the reuniting of the physical body with the spirit) which is given freely to everyone. (1 Cor 15:22, John 5:28-29) This only makes sense as none of us chose mortality for ourselves, but it is (factually the state we are in) a result of our first parents, Adam and Eve, and therefore, a fair and just resolution for Jesus to grant us this supernal gift to live again. However, we can indeed choose not to accept the other half of His atoning sacrifice, and thus resign ourselves to endless misery and damnation, or spiritual death. While redemption from physical death has been guaranteed by the Savior, no such guarantee applies for us with spiritual death until we effectuate such by our acknowledgment that He is our Savior, repent, take upon ourselves His name, and covenant to follow Him and keep His commandments. This redemption(from spiritual death) is a conditional one based upon one’s repentance and keeping the commandments. So, are there ordinances we must perform and actions to take, YES. But not as some on this blog have maintained that Mormons are climbing the “step ladder to heaven, or work, work working their way toward exaltation, or ‘godhood‘“, as if these acts, by themselves will insure a special place in God’s exclusive kingdom.
The truth is no matter what we do, we all fall short of the glory of God and will need the Lord’s saving grace to ever reach the ultimate goal which is to return to Our Heavenly Father. We are truly nothing without Him. With this in mind, does this mean that we ought not to be anxiously engaged in good works? It was most simply said of the Savior himself that he, “went about doing good.” If in following His example we are accused of working works of righteousness, let us surely rejoice. Your reference to 1 Cor 15 about bodies telestial, terrestial and celestial IS INDICATIVE of how the resurrection of the dead shall vary just like the sun, moon and stars in glory. Why is it that these two principles have to condradict each other? They, in fact, do compliment each other if we accept that while the Lord knows our weaknesses and imperfection, yet still stands ready to supplement us with His light and be our advocate. The only remaining question is will we let Him? Will we make His will our own and surrender our lives and be subject to Him in order that He may exalt us, if “we prove ourselves worthy.” When I say this, the connotation naturally implies action on our part, obviously. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but you know what the actions are (stated above).
clarity67, would you be willing to unequivocally denounce the teachings of your leaders here?
No matter how it is couched, a theology of graciously assisted merit-earning is still a theology of merit-earning. Christians simply have no place in meriting eternal life or earning mercy, no matter how much gracious assistance is provided.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
Clarity,
I agree that there will be a resurrection of both the just and unjust (Acts 24:15) thus the true question is, is this all Christ purchased on the Cross? If not what else did he bear the wrath of God for? Was it for our exaltation? If Christ paid for everything, and we simply need to accept it to take hold of what He bought then is God unjust for making us pay also for what God has already obtained with His blood? (Acts 20:28) You see it cannot be both ways either Christ did pay for everything, atoned for every sin of those who will be saved/exalted, or He did not, if the latter is true then our own merits do play a role in our salvation/exaltation, be they as simple as acceptance, for clearly there is some reason within you that you did and another did not. I submit that the former is what is true holding fast to the scriptures which teach we [Christians] have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Therefore when Christ who is our life appears, then we also will appear with Him in glory. For even when we were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Lautensack
Aaron,
The scripture you quote says – “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)
It uses the word “OBEY”. Does this not connotate that something else is necessary besides faith/belief?
I think the main objection we LDS have against your (I mean Evangelicals, not pointing to anyone in particular now) presentation about our beliefs is that you seem to present it as though we teach that we do not need to believe in Jesus Christ. As you well know this is the exact opposite. We believe that FIRST Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then as the scriptures say, this faith, if it is a true faith, should change our hearts so that we would no more desire to do evil, and then we will abound in good works. It is upon these good works that we will be judged, again in the Bible/scriptures. BUT without faith all the good works will amount to nothing and we cannot reach the Celestial Kingdom. You all believe that once you have accepted Jesus and are saved that you will do good works – and those who do not do good works did not have a true faith in Jesus and thus are damned even though they may say that they have received confirmation that they are saved. To an extent you too are saying that works are a necessity for salvation, otherwise those who received a confirmation of being saved (as you have) could still do evil works and still be saved.
But we all believe Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil; but overcome evil with good. In other words, we need to DO good, not just reject evil.
Haven’t been able to listen to the above recording yet so cannot comment on it right now.
Ralph, I think the “obedience” in view is the response of faith to the command to believe in the Son (for who he is). I don’t think it has anything to do with meriting or earning eternal life (even with gracious assistance), contra the teachings of modern LDS apostles.
No. Mormonism teachies that one must believe in the existence of a being named Jesus Christ, connected with the central historical figure of the Four Gospels. However, Mormonism teaches a different set of specific promises that we must believe in. So no, Mormonism does not teach its people to believe in Christ’s promise that he gives eternal life if one would simply receive it by faith (instead of trying to merit or earn it, even with gracious assistance). Rather, Mormonism teaches, among other things, its people to trust Jesus to help give necessary, gracious assistance in their journey to personally merit eternal life (as Robert D Hales taught) and earn mercy (as Richard G Scott taught).
I assume that you are not telling me that you are trusting in the Mexican Jésus to make you a great burrito. There is a character, a nature, a being, and a set of promises behind that name. Instead of ambiguously throwing the name out I would rather focus any conversation on the watershed issues that form the meaning of the name.
How is this supposed to encourage me? So Jesus graciously gives a ladder of works to meritoriously climb unto the earning of mercy, but hey don’t forget, Jesus graciously and vitally gave you that ladder, and we need to trust him as we climb that ladder, because hey, without Jesus and his gifts, we wouldn’t be able to make it to the CK.
Again, any theology of graciously assisted earning of mercy or meriting of eternal life is still just that: a theology of earning mercy and meriting eternal life. I call you to repent and unequivocally denounce what your own leaders teach about earning mercy and meriting eternal life. Anything less lacks integrity and lacks true repentance.
Works are only necessary as an after-evidence that authenticates the reality of saving faith. But they are not necessary, contra Mormonism, as a meritorious prerequisite for earning or proving oneself worthy of mercy or eternal life.
Grace and peace,
Aaron
Clarity,
one of the problems with saying works are needed to be saved is people cannot repent on their death bed and be saved. But also Some one who just comes to Christ and is saved, but dies on the way home cannot be saved since they did no works. Or LDS cannot go to share the Gospel with people in Prison on death row because the cannot do works.
Clarity, thanks for the response. Some others have addressed some of the same points I would have, and I do not wish to keep this going forever, but reading through your response to me I had these questions:
Do you not believe you can become gods?
If there is only one god, as you said, how is this possible?
How does one attain this status?
If one fails to live up to the pressure (ie, expecations) will that person reach the CK and achieve godhoods?
How is all of this brought together if you do not have a meritorious system?
Please accept this questions as confusion on my part (and perhaps all or many of us) as to how we view your faith as a meritocracy and how it is contradictory.
God bless.
I call you to repent and unequivocally denounce what your own leaders teach about earning mercy and meriting eternal life. Anything less lacks integrity and lacks true repentance.
Ha ha, good one Aaron. You’re asking me to do a work first so that I can become saved by repenting and denouncing (note VERBS are doing words) my religion.
But if works are unnecessary to be saved and just an acceptance of Jesus is all, then why are homosexuals who believe in Christ and the Bible not considered Christian or saved by many of you?
Then it begs the question – Can a person who has fully accepted Christ as their Saviour but decides according to their faith that God wants them to destroy abortion clinics still be saved? They are doing it in God’s name. They are following the example of the Bible. But maybe that’s too extreme an example.
Another question I have asked many times and got the standard answer of – they were never saved in the first place because they did not have true faith – is if fornicators cannot go to heaven (NT teaching from Paul) then if someone has accepted Christ as their Saviour but lives with their partner without formal marriage are they saved? You cannot exclude someone by saying they did not have true faith because you cannot see into thair hearts as God can. So either they are or they aren’t saved. If they aren’t – Why? is it because of what they are doing? If so then their works stop them from being saved. If the are still saved then what about the verses in the Bible that says the opposite – ie that they are not saved?
As for the Church leaders’ comments – we only receive/merit eternal life after first accepting Jesus as our Saviour and then following His commandments and example because of our faith. That is all they are teaching. Repentance is only through Jesus’ atonement, God’s commandments are there for us to follow. And these men are talking to the converted so to say they mean that we do not need Jesus is erroneous
I have a question along those lines too. What is it that defines your faith in Christ. Does He not say “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” So couldn’t it also say that if you don’t love Christ you will not keep His commandments? The point is that we as believers in Christ believe that following His commandments is a definition of our faith. This is just as it is said in James. “Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” I like a lot of what is written by James as it is very frank as to the basic principles of having faith in God and Christ. Christ’s grace is sufficient to save, but we must follow Him in order to receive that grace. Physical death is freely overcome for all, for that is not our fault. Spiritual death is what comes from our own actions and we must follow the laws and ordinances in order to overcome it, but without Christ, it all falls apart.
Aaron,
Perhaps you should reread my last post in which I said, ”This redemption (from spiritual death) is a conditional one based upon one’s repentance and keeping the commandments. So, are there ordinances we must perform and actions to take, YES. But not as some on this blog have maintained that Mormons are climbing the “step ladder to heaven, or work, work working their way toward exaltation, or ‘godhood‘“, as if these acts, “BY THEMSELVES” will insure a special place in God’s exclusive kingdom. (caps and quote marks added)
I will clarify yet once again IT IS BOTH, not ONE or the OTHER. A person must exercise faith unto works and then, after all he/she can do, we are saved by the grace of Him who alone has the power to do so. Without the savior, all good works avail us nothing, and with Him, although he stands ready to save, if we don’t obey, act, work, he WILL not, CANNOT save us. If He were to do so (save the disobedient and unrepentant), he would cease to be God, because he would not be keeping His own word. YOU MUST HAVE BOTH.
You surely do not understand the scriptures if you are to assert that works have no place in meting out God’s justice. Now I will agree with you that the Savior has, thankfully, done the most difficult part that none of us could ever do, but that does not relinquish us from responsibility for our personal actions. To suggest such is offensive to God’s justice which requires obedience.
Please reread the entire book of James and then explain to us again what you meant by (YOU SAID) “ I think the “obedience” in view is the response of faith to the command to believe in the Son (for who he is). I don’t think it has anything to do with meriting or earning eternal life (even with gracious assistance), contra the teachings of modern LDS apostles.” So “obedience” only applies to the command to believe in the Son? Hmmm? You can’t possibly……. Is this where we are starting from? We have a long way to go Ralph.
Michael,
I think that because many (perhaps you included) are scared, threatened, or otherwise troubled by the “merit scale” I have alluded to it as “not the primary concern“, but rather that we ought to be concerned about making sure that we understand the source of our salvation (and by the way, it‘s not regular temple attendance). If that has been disingenuous on my part, I apologize. I believe we are often accused of emphasizing the “work”, while traditional Christians are viewed as emphasizing only the “grace”. The fact is that we believe strongly in the absolute necessity of BOTH (faith in His grace, and works). Without getting into a scripture war let me suggest a few questions. How will the Lord judge us? What will His judgment be based upon? How will we feel in His presence and will it matter then whether or not we have been obedient and worked righteous works? What will He ask us about? What will He have as evidence, or as testimony for or against us? Will He know our hearts? And if so, how??? Will He apply the parable of the talents in determining whether or not we were good and faithful?, or slothful? Will He know us as his sheep, and if so, how?
Now to answer, “do we not believe that we can become gods. (small ‘g’) In a word, yes. Somewhere, somehow, sometime billions of years from now in eternity, the concept is a true principle. How is this reconciled with “there is only one God”? First, let’s assume the one does not contradict the other. To us, as far as we know, there is but one God that we worship. What is His purpose? To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, we believe. Would God granting His children, (who choose Him and His ways) a portion of His kingdom, to govern, or to rule over, or preside over, or become a “god” over-would this diminish God’s power or authority or in any way take away from who He is and what He has created??? I think not, but I would be interested in your answer to this.
CONTD…
I think that often many critics cannot get past the word “god” and what it implies. To become such means only what I mentioned, to rule, to preside, to reign, to govern with unlimited power and supremacy. Would you agree that God would never grant this to a “steward” of imperfect, unrighteous endeavor, if at all? Only through Christ and the perfection which is in Him will anyone ever qualify, and re-qualify, and re-qualify, and “grow brighter and brighter until the perfect day.” (D&C 50:24)
Actually, clarity, I will address the question about us becoming gods diminishing God’s power and authority. Yes! It would! It absolutely positively would! A) there is only one God. Your explanation of reconciling the one God issue falls short. If there’s only one God, then there cannot be any others. This is a simple concept, and to say “We only worship one” is suggesting there are more, which goes against God’s own words in the Bible. B) If God grants power to us in the sense that we are gods, then God is not all powerful. God cannot, by his nature, be anything but all powerful. If you come back and say that God can take away your godhood or overrule you, then that is inconsistent.
Now, to address the point of being scared or intimidated. I find this technique, I have seen it used before, questionnable. Rather than addressing the merits of the arguments, you question the integrity of those making the accusations against you. It is not intimidation, I assure you. I know you ask many questions, but let me ask you one about the regular temple attendance, others here have said point blank that if you do not do certain things, you CANNOT be saved in Mormonism. Who is telling the truth, you, or them? The answer should be telling.
The lord will judge us based on our faith and our works (undefined). But first we are given access to heaven by our faith, works aside.
It will be based upon how we treat others, and how we follow his word, again specifics are not really defined (you can argue baptism and communion).
How will we feel? I have no idea.
What will he ask? I have no idea.
What will he have as evidence? He knows everything and all.
Will he know our hearts? He knows them right now. How? He knows everything.
The parable of the talents? I have no idea.
As his sheep? Depends on whether or not we believe.
Ralph and Jacob, let me put this in perspective for you. A homosexual who claims Christ may very well be saved. The question revolves around this one point: Is that person actively living a homosexual lifestyle without remorse? If so, then that person is flaunting what God tells us in the Bible. If, however, that person is truly trying to leave homosexual behavior behind, then that person may very well be saved.
Same thing for the alcoholic, porn addict, the power hungry and greedy, chronic liar, murderer, thief, and down the line.
A final thought on this, if you wish to make this a works issue, go ahead. But this is a far stretch from your temple rituals which are predetermined that you must complete to be obedient to your god. Turning from sin is an action, but that is not the same as what you proscribe.
Michael P
What do you make of the scripture John 14:2 In my father’s house are many mansions: If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Also in Isaiah we all learn step by step. When we die we are not all going to be at the same level of understanding. Why is it so hard to think about many levels of glory?
Everyone gets resurrected, that is what I look at as grace, the good and the bad. It doesn’t matter if you say you believe in Christ you still get resurrected. Yet those that have done poorly in this life will die a second death, spiritual. So those that have excelled in this life, why would they not be worthy of a higher degree of glory. Do you feel you should get the same reward as Paul or John the Baptist or Mother Theresa? Would a just God give everyone the same reward (kind of sounds like communism)? The story of the talents, each were given a different reward depending on what they did with the talents they were given.
Have any of the EV group here read much on the Dead Sea scrolls, Nag hammadi and the Nicene Creed? Is this information to be shunned as the BoM?
Once again the Temple is about making a covenant with God. If you do your part God promises to do his part. It is a higher law then just keeping the commandments. Abraham made a covenant with God what was it?
So MichaelP,
If you say “A homosexual who claims Christ may very well be saved. The question revolves around this one point: Is that person actively living a homosexual lifestyle without remorse? If so, then that person is flaunting what God tells us in the Bible. If, however, that person is truly trying to leave homosexual behavior behind, then that person may very well be saved.”, then does this not mean that their works exclude them from salvation and not their faith?
But what of the Anglican Church in America and the Uniting Church in Australia which have both decided that they will ordain homosexual ministers – ones who are living an openly homosexual lifestyle? (If you need to know, the Uniting Church consists of Methodists, Presbyterians and The Congregation Union.) I would like to know if these churches rate as Christian churches in your definition now.
But I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we both agree that faith brings about a change of heart and this should bring about a change in lifestyle for the better. Without this change the person’s faith seems invalidated and their salvation is an unsurety. But isn’t a change in lifestyle a work? And if without this change our salvation is an unsurety, then doesn’t this mean that works do contribute to salvation after faith?
As for baptism and temple ordinances – if God told you to do something, anything at all, would you do it? What would happen if you didn’t do it – would you be ‘saved’ if you totally disregarded what God told you to do? This is what it is for me and these ordinances – God has told me to do them through His appointed ministers and through personal revelation. I know you do not accept this, but that is because of your faith – it does not allow you to accept my beliefs. But just remember, I do not accept your beliefs either, so ultimately it comes down to who has the true belief about God. So to clarify your question, it is not a work, it is what God has told us to do.
Oh Good another discussion of faith vs works or faith alone vs faith and works. I do enjoy how often these discussions come up, it seems we will never move past “repentance from dead works and of faith toward God.” Anyways for my friends who believe that salvation comes by faith and works, I must ask which part of salvation comes by faith and which by works. Is it the Rebirth (John 3:3), God’s calling (John 6:35-44;65), Conversion (Ephesians 1:17-18), Justification (Romans 3:24-26, 4:5-8), Adoption (Romans 8:15-17), Sanctification (Hebrews 13:20-21), or Glorification (Romans 8:30)? Yes salvation involves all of that :-p
Woenigma,
If you understood 1611 English you would know that a mansion back then referred to a room or closet which correlates with the Greek text.
As for deserving the same reward for Paul, John the Baptist, or Mother Theresa, yes we all deserve the same reward death, that is our wage and it is by grace alone that we are not given it. As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library and Nicene Creed, we do reject the gnostic works of Nag Hammadi which state that God is evil for creating the physical world (see also Gospel of Thomas) we do reject the non-Canonical works found in the Dead Sea Scrolls (see also Deuterocanonical Writings, eg. Apocrypha). As for the Nicene Creed why would we reject something that plainly states what is found in the bible? That would be like me rejecting a talk or sermon given by a modern preacher on the grounds that he wasn’t simply quoting the bible.
Abraham did not make a covenant with God, God made a covenant with Abraham. The difference is subtle but there is a difference.
Lautensack
Oh, forgot to throw these in, and really wanted to. For a biblical prospective of Faith and Works James Vs Paul I wrote this piece about a month ago when this came up. I really wish the text would fit here but unfortunately it wont. Anyways heres the link. Enjoy. http://thechristianpint.blogspot.com/2008/03/faith-works-james-vs-paul.html
Lautensack
Lautensack,
So what is going to be your reward a closet or a room with a view? Tell me what your working towards?
I feel honored to be corresponding with someone as valiant as Paul, righteous as John the Baptist and humble as Mother Theresa.
The scriptures you quote take both works and faith, there is no other way no matter how you want to deny it.
AS for death being our wage, we all die. Are you not going to die? Even Christ died. Now the part you all keep skipping, WE ALL GET RESURRECTED, you don’t have to say I believe in Christ to get this free gift, I will say it one more time WE ALL GET RESURRECTED the just and the unjust. What makes everyone different is their works!
woenigma,
I am not working towards anything, I am solely dependent upon the grace of another and the righteousness of another for a room in the House of God in the Celestial City, where I will serve and praise my King forever.
As for corresponding with someone such as Paul, John the Baptist, and Mother Theresa, I would suggest that they believed that “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery,and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” So am I like them, yes I am redeemed dirt whose only worth comes in the form of Jesus Christ for there is nothing good within myself just as there is nothing good within you. The reward we all deserve is death and second death. Therefore it is Christ’s righteousness applied to me by grace through faith that brings me to God.
As for the scriptures mentioned, note I did not quote any in my last post, please show me where they speak of works.
Finally I totally agree that we all get resurrected as does every Christian in the world. Acts 24:15 “there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.” Now God is no respecter of persons that He could be bribed with your dead works which are filthy rags. What makes the difference between those praising God in heaven and those cursing God in hell is not works done in righteousness, serving God as though He needed anything, but a five letter word called GRACE, which God works as He does all things according to the counsel of His will.
Lautensack
Ralph, quite frankly, I would not consider them Christian. They flaunt an obvious sin, and without remorse they continue in their ways.
As to the rest of your post, let me say this, and this only, this comes back to a definition of works. You say what you do are done because God (and the leaders of your church, not to be understated) say you should do them. And because of this, they are not works. But you say that turning from sin is a work. This is a far cry from what I would define a work as. A work is something, anything, we do to earn favor with God, no matter what or who the source of the command. In other words, your rituals are works. Turning from sin, I can grant that that could be a work, but a work a far distance from going on a mission.
What it is you describe as not works are a checklist of things you are told to do, and you do them. Why do you do them? To earn your rewards, and to honor God. What I subscribe to is that we are to live a godly life, free from sin. Why? To honor God, I don’t care about rewards.
Woenigma, Lautensack did a great job responding to your questions to me, so I won’t spend a lot of time on. I would like to address one point: that of comparing rewards: I don’t care! I will be with my Father in heaven, and that’s all I need. Its that simple.
MichaelP,
It seems as though you are able to read my thoughts and heart. You said ” Why do you do them? To earn your rewards, and to honor God.” I told you I do them because God has told me to do it – Who am I to argue with God? If He rewards me for it then so be it, if not then that’s His prerogative. Even so, I can still relate to Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. My reward is to finally live with Him after the resurrection – that is what I am looking forward to. Are you looking forward to a similar reward? If so, then what is the difference between your belief and mine?
You didn’t answer my questions – if God told you to do something, anything at all, would you do it? What would happen if you didn’t do it – would you be ’saved’ if you totally disregarded what God told you to do? And despite your emphasis on ‘the leaders of your church’, I have received personal revelation about this, so yes, it is like I said in my last post – God told me and so did the leaders of my church – emphasis on GOD TOLD ME.