Comments on: Still No Apology http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/ It's forbidden, but it's good! Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:23:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: jer1414 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8536 jer1414 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:14:50 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8536 People of all religious persuasions have been convinced of their faith, whether through visions, dreams, testimonies, feelings, etc. Many claim enlightenment, spiritual awakening, higher powers, etc. The experiences and sources may be real, very real, but that doesn’t make them right or true. Feelings can be generated by a variety of sources: God, false spirits, even oneself. Proverbs 14:12 reminds us that "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the are the ways of death." Scripture admonishes us to “test”, “prove”, “search” and to believe not every spirit. There must be something outside our subjective feelings in determining truth. Much of this has been spoken of in previous articles on this site, which I do enjoy because of the brevity. Godspeed. People of all religious persuasions have been convinced of their faith, whether through visions, dreams, testimonies, feelings, etc. Many claim enlightenment, spiritual awakening, higher powers, etc. The experiences and sources may be real, very real, but that doesn’t make them right or true. Feelings can be generated by a variety of sources: God, false spirits, even oneself. Proverbs 14:12 reminds us that “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the are the ways of death.” Scripture admonishes us to “test”, “prove”, “search” and to believe not every spirit. There must be something outside our subjective feelings in determining truth. Much of this has been spoken of in previous articles on this site, which I do enjoy because of the brevity. Godspeed.

]]> By: JLFuller http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8470 JLFuller Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:42:14 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8470 jer1414 makes an honest observation, at least in part. Given the limitations of MormonCoffee, I would like to talk to what he says @ http://mormonthing.wordpress.com. <font color="red">JL, though there are daily comment and character limits on Mormon Coffee, an achievable goal here is to engage in discussion and interaction with one another. Please review our <a href="http://blog.mrm.org/2007/06/comment-policy/" rel="nofollow">comment policy</a> and in the future refrain from posting a link to your blog without also providing a summary of your arguments that readers will find there. Thanks.</font> jer1414 makes an honest observation, at least in part. Given the limitations of MormonCoffee, I would like to talk to what he says @ http://mormonthing.wordpress.com.

JL, though there are daily comment and character limits on Mormon Coffee, an achievable goal here is to engage in discussion and interaction with one another. Please review our comment policy and in the future refrain from posting a link to your blog without also providing a summary of your arguments that readers will find there. Thanks.

]]> By: JLFuller http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8469 JLFuller Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:31:00 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8469 I need some help. If anyone is conversant with WordPress bloging I would appreciate some assistance. I can't seem to make this thing work quite right. http://mormonthing.wordpress.com. The hot chocolate and ice cream is on me. Jack I need some help. If anyone is conversant with WordPress bloging I would appreciate some assistance. I can’t seem to make this thing work quite right.
http://mormonthing.wordpress.com. The hot chocolate and ice cream is on me.
Jack

]]> By: jackg http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8468 jackg Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:29:51 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8468 Again, I want to share my personal experience with regard to the comment by JLF that our testimony is whether or not we want one. Previously, I stated that I really hoped the LDS Church was true. I wanted it to be true. I cried out to God to restore my testimony of JS and the BOM if indeed it all was true. In that moment, I didn't care if I had been wrong about the Church, all I wanted was to be obedient and go where the LORD wanted to lead me. I was prepared to denounce everything I had said about the Church if God would restore my testimony. I gave Him time (although, I don't think much time would elapse in such a request), but that testimony never returned; in fact, the LORD only showed me more evidence against the divinity of the Church. I wanted my testimony restored--if indeed the Church was true. But, more importantly, I wanted to be obedient to God. I don't want to slam the Mormons; I want to bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the gospel--a gospel of grace, love, peace, and hope. Again, I want to share my personal experience with regard to the comment by JLF that our testimony is whether or not we want one. Previously, I stated that I really hoped the LDS Church was true. I wanted it to be true. I cried out to God to restore my testimony of JS and the BOM if indeed it all was true. In that moment, I didn’t care if I had been wrong about the Church, all I wanted was to be obedient and go where the LORD wanted to lead me. I was prepared to denounce everything I had said about the Church if God would restore my testimony. I gave Him time (although, I don’t think much time would elapse in such a request), but that testimony never returned; in fact, the LORD only showed me more evidence against the divinity of the Church. I wanted my testimony restored–if indeed the Church was true. But, more importantly, I wanted to be obedient to God. I don’t want to slam the Mormons; I want to bring them the gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the gospel–a gospel of grace, love, peace, and hope.

]]> By: jer1414 http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8467 jer1414 Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:13:17 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8467 Jeffrey, sadly, your situation sounds common. If you get no answer or the “wrong” answer (that the LDS church is not true), then it’s your fault – Like JLFuller said, you’re not faithful enough, you don’t want one bad enough, etc. It’s just like the story “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. The pressure is put on people, especially children, who desperately want Mormonism to be true and please their family members - to just believe it, obey, do, be sincere, just accept it… then maybe you’ll get a good feeling. However, I’ve come to realize that if convincing does occur, it’s from deceptive spirit. I’ve also had Mormons turn just about anything into “That’s the Holy Ghost telling you it’s true!” For instance this happened when I related to a Mormon the many Mormons I’ve witnessed to as they come across my path. Unfortunately for her, it’s not the Holy Ghost telling me that Mormonism is true, but rather the Lord has brought them my way because they desperately need to hear the truth of Jesus Christ. Jeffrey, sadly, your situation sounds common. If you get no answer or the “wrong” answer (that the LDS church is not true), then it’s your fault – Like JLFuller said, you’re not faithful enough, you don’t want one bad enough, etc. It’s just like the story “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. The pressure is put on people, especially children, who desperately want Mormonism to be true and please their family members – to just believe it, obey, do, be sincere, just accept it… then maybe you’ll get a good feeling. However, I’ve come to realize that if convincing does occur, it’s from deceptive spirit.

I’ve also had Mormons turn just about anything into “That’s the Holy Ghost telling you it’s true!” For instance this happened when I related to a Mormon the many Mormons I’ve witnessed to as they come across my path. Unfortunately for her, it’s not the Holy Ghost telling me that Mormonism is true, but rather the Lord has brought them my way because they desperately need to hear the truth of Jesus Christ.

]]> By: JLFuller http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8466 JLFuller Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:10:13 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8466 Jeffrey That is a good question. It is one we all struggle with. The question many of us ask is "why can't I get an answer to..." When you ask your bishop, he will ask if you are living the gospel principles. That is, are you praying daily, do you have faith you will receive an answer, are you living the principle even though you don't have a spiritual confirmation yet? We learn by doing. Such is the way human beings learn. We gain a testimony by practicing. Faith precedes the miracle. Faith is built little by little - by putting into practicing those things we want to have a testimony of to see if they really work. The miracle is what happens after you accept the principle and have made it part of your life, not before. Just like reading the B of M daily results in a more Christ-like view of humanity and a closer relationship to God and Christ. Your testimony is dependant on whether you want one. I would like to contnue this discussion on another blog without the limitaions of 2K and 3 posts per day. If you are interested, go to http://mormonthing.wordpress.com. I have just re-opened it and am struggleing with the details but give it a try. Jeffrey
That is a good question. It is one we all struggle with. The question many of us ask is “why can’t I get an answer to…” When you ask your bishop, he will ask if you are living the gospel principles. That is, are you praying daily, do you have faith you will receive an answer, are you living the principle even though you don’t have a spiritual confirmation yet? We learn by doing. Such is the way human beings learn. We gain a testimony by practicing. Faith precedes the miracle. Faith is built little by little – by putting into practicing those things we want to have a testimony of to see if they really work. The miracle is what happens after you accept the principle and have made it part of your life, not before. Just like reading the B of M daily results in a more Christ-like view of humanity and a closer relationship to God and Christ. Your testimony is dependant on whether you want one. I would like to contnue this discussion on another blog without the limitaions of 2K and 3 posts per day. If you are interested, go to http://mormonthing.wordpress.com. I have just re-opened it and am struggleing with the details but give it a try.

]]> By: Jeffrey http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8426 Jeffrey Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:42:31 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8426 JLF "The LDS perspective is that we present the message and the Holy Ghost confirms it. There is no need to argue. It is not a contest amongst men." I wish it was that easy JLF, but it's not. I had sought to find truth in Mormonism by praying to God multiple times to have the spirit confirm to me the truth of the church, and received nothing. I attended an LDS ward for 5 years, listening to the teachings and not once has the Holy spirit confirmed the message, even when I asked. How does one reconcile not only my situation, but countless others who either don't receive confirmation from the holy spirit, or receiving confirmation from God/The Holy spirit about their own faith which is not LDS?? Many LDS on this board have said "I dont know why they dont get any confirmation, only that I received mine" and just leave it at that.. That doesn't make any sense in any way though, do you agree? If someone sincerely asks, they are SUPPOSED to receive this confirmation. Does God/Holy spirit just decide not to talk to some people or what? You're statement was true to the point that it is the LDS perspective, but it does not hold any weight, especially for me personally.. And I truly wanted to believe it was true because my wife at the time was LDS and if there was any chance she would be seperated from me into a different Heaven because we aren't sealed, I didn't want that to happen. It was emotional and I cried a lot that night. But it definitely was not because I received "truth" from the Holy spirit. JLF “The LDS perspective is that we present the message and the Holy Ghost confirms it. There is no need to argue. It is not a contest amongst men.”

I wish it was that easy JLF, but it’s not. I had sought to find truth in Mormonism by praying to God multiple times to have the spirit confirm to me the truth of the church, and received nothing. I attended an LDS ward for 5 years, listening to the teachings and not once has the Holy spirit confirmed the message, even when I asked. How does one reconcile not only my situation, but countless others who either don’t receive confirmation from the holy spirit, or receiving confirmation from God/The Holy spirit about their own faith which is not LDS??

Many LDS on this board have said “I dont know why they dont get any confirmation, only that I received mine” and just leave it at that.. That doesn’t make any sense in any way though, do you agree? If someone sincerely asks, they are SUPPOSED to receive this confirmation. Does God/Holy spirit just decide not to talk to some people or what?

You’re statement was true to the point that it is the LDS perspective, but it does not hold any weight, especially for me personally.. And I truly wanted to believe it was true because my wife at the time was LDS and if there was any chance she would be seperated from me into a different Heaven because we aren’t sealed, I didn’t want that to happen. It was emotional and I cried a lot that night. But it definitely was not because I received “truth” from the Holy spirit.

]]> By: jackg http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8421 jackg Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:13:57 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8421 Jeffrey and MichaelP, I appreciate your input on this issue. JLF, I do appreciate where you are coming from. I think we just have a different view of what arguing is. I see arguing as two or more people yelling at each other at the top of their lungs and not willing to listen. I think in this miliue, however, that we do listen to each other and then debate the issues with calmness and civility. The problem with writing is that we do not hear tones and attitudes properly. We Christians also believe that the Holy Spirit will testify to the gospel message we present. Would you say that Peter was contentious when speaking to the Israelites in Acts 3? Verse 17 is rather harsh, wouldn't you agree? "I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders." And, in dealing with the Pharisees, I think Jesus was very contentious. You're right, it's not a contest among men, but it is spiritual warfare against Satan and the lies he perpetrates on humanity. We, too, believe that we are engaged in more than just discussing doctrine. With all due respect and with sincerity of heart, we Christians see the Mormon people as "an entire people to salvage" (JLF). I think to avoid the war would be offensive to God. So, if you could, please clarify what arguing means to you. Jeffrey and MichaelP, I appreciate your input on this issue.

JLF, I do appreciate where you are coming from. I think we just have a different view of what arguing is. I see arguing as two or more people yelling at each other at the top of their lungs and not willing to listen. I think in this miliue, however, that we do listen to each other and then debate the issues with calmness and civility. The problem with writing is that we do not hear tones and attitudes properly.

We Christians also believe that the Holy Spirit will testify to the gospel message we present. Would you say that Peter was contentious when speaking to the Israelites in Acts 3? Verse 17 is rather harsh, wouldn’t you agree? “I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.” And, in dealing with the Pharisees, I think Jesus was very contentious.

You’re right, it’s not a contest among men, but it is spiritual warfare against Satan and the lies he perpetrates on humanity. We, too, believe that we are engaged in more than just discussing doctrine. With all due respect and with sincerity of heart, we Christians see the Mormon people as “an entire people to salvage” (JLF). I think to avoid the war would be offensive to God.

So, if you could, please clarify what arguing means to you.

]]> By: JLFuller http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8420 JLFuller Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:58:53 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8420 MichaelP I hope I am not arguing. If it comes across that way then I am in error. My intent on this and other sites is to inform those earnestly seeking to know about the LDS view, provide sources where interested readers can go to counter deliberate distortion, correct innocent misinformation and entreat others to raise above pettiness. In each endeavor I try to keep it civil and respond according to the promptings of the Holy Ghost. MichaelP
I hope I am not arguing. If it comes across that way then I am in error. My intent on this and other sites is to inform those earnestly seeking to know about the LDS view, provide sources where interested readers can go to counter deliberate distortion, correct innocent misinformation and entreat others to raise above pettiness. In each endeavor I try to keep it civil and respond according to the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

]]> By: Michael P http://blog.mrm.org/2008/06/still-no-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-8416 Michael P Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:12:07 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=876#comment-8416 JLF, Let me ask you something, if I may. Why do you post here if you do not wish to argue? You have certainly argued here. Arguing does not necessitate anger. To argue is to discuss and work through an issue. This can be done with calmness and civility. That you say you will not argue really is interesting, especially given your involvement here. But there is one thing I agree with you on is that getting angry unecessarilly rarely leads to good. JLF,

Let me ask you something, if I may. Why do you post here if you do not wish to argue?

You have certainly argued here. Arguing does not necessitate anger. To argue is to discuss and work through an issue. This can be done with calmness and civility.

That you say you will not argue really is interesting, especially given your involvement here.

But there is one thing I agree with you on is that getting angry unecessarilly rarely leads to good.

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