God is Not Honored by Blind Faith

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Bryan Hurlbutt’s entire talk, “Discerning the Wind: Responding to the ‘Trump Card’ of Mormon Personal Religious Experience”, is now available for $2.99 on MP3 audio and $3.99 on MP4 video. I love his description of true Christianity as a “dance” between objectivity and subjectivity.

“In an LDS culture personal experience is cherished as the authoritative means of obtaining spiritual truth. How do we deal with this very personal and precious issue with our Mormon neighbors without disavowing the reality of genuine Christian, personal, spiritual experience? In this presentation Bryan assesses the nature of Mormon ‘testimony’, discusses a criteria for evaluating religious experience and proposes a means of engaging this foundation of individual Mormon conviction.”

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60 Responses to God is Not Honored by Blind Faith

  1. germit says:

    GRC: Will I be getting an answer to some of my questions soon? The son of perdition answer should be a brief one: the apostasy spoken of in 2cd Thess is connected to this man’s appearance, if you can’t name him (unless your theory is he has appeared incognito ), why are you using the verses ? Mr.Cluff, these are “ends of the ages” bibles verses, and even though we MIGHT be on the horizon of those times, you have a little waiting to do before they apply. Speaking of “waiting”: the restitution, or “summing up” of all things will find it’s fullest expression upon Jesus the Messiah’s return and earthly rule and reign. Are you saying that until that time (before that time), we are in apostasy?? If that’s the case,sir, YOU are an apostate, because Jesus hasn’t come back yet. You’re having some tough “end times” these days, Mr.Cluff, maybe this is the tribulation. I know a LOT of pre-tribbers that are going to be really upset. GERMIT

  2. falcon says:

    jackg,
    Thank you for the words of encouragement. I know Berean (who happens to be on vacation this week) and I have days when we wonder if being involved in this type of ministry is worth it. I’ve learned a lot, particularly about the mindset of our Mormon friends and quite frankly, I’m often left scratching my head at the mind bending it takes Mormons to maintain their faith in Mormonism. Walter Martin said that it was his observation that Mormons could think rationally in all areas of their life except when it came to the Mormon religion.

    Among my top “Mormon Moments” was when one of the Mormon posters, several months back, declared that we hadn’t provided any evidence that the BoM wasn’t true. So I dutifully listed several verifiable facts that indeed shows that the BoM is not a historical record. The response from the Mormon friend was basically that this was evidence from “man” not from God and since God had not revealed it to him, it was to be rejected. I was incredulous. So I learned that to the True Believing Mormon, their “testimony” overrides any rational evidence contrary to what they believe.
    My other two jaw droppers was when one of our Mormon friends said he would kill or steal if the prophet looked him in the eye and ordered him to do it and when another said he saw dead people through the veil in the temple. I don’t doubt either of the Mormon posters who said these things. To the former, that’s cult thinking and more than dangerous. To the latter, seeing dead people is straight out of the occult, it is not from God.

    So this is spiritual warfare as described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians. It is a battle that is being fought in the heavenly places but is being manifested here on earth.

  3. Jeffrey says:

    Cluff,

    I could call myself a prophet, say I saw God and Jesus, and come up with a thousand “revelations”, does that mean it is true that I have the gift of prophecy? That argument is lacking. If thats the case, then Warren Jeffs is a prophet of God as well.

    What I don’t think LDS realize is that the Bible was very clear on how to be saved. The underlying premise I see in almost every story is faith. Put your faith and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Beautiful message. But now instead, the LDS come up with all this extra doctrine that allows you to become Gods.

    So the question is, does God still speak to Christians? Yes. Does he still show himself to everyone? Absolutely. It may not JUST come in a personal revelation from the Holy Spirit though; Take a look around, He has shown himself in many many ways.

    Is the gift of prophecy needed as much today as it was back then? I don’t think so. This was new for most people back then, today, God’s Word is being spread abundantly. What do you want God to do, beat His Words into your head with a hammer? You have been given the true Gospel and you reject it. It is of your own doing.

    As for discouraging me? Give me all the Biblical beating you can muster buddy 🙂

  4. falcon says:

    Jeffery,
    Your one of my home boys so I hate to disagree with you, but I have to ever so slightly. The gift of prophesy, as described by the apostle Paul in 1st. Cor. 12-14 is very much needed by the Church today but……………the basis for everything in the Christian faith is the Word of God the Bible. The fact that Mormons downgrade the Bible is one of the fundamental reasons they’ll buy the sloganeering and creative narrative that is Mormonism. If they respected the Bible as God’s Word, they’d jettison Mormonism quicker than an atlas rocket.
    People get drawn into all kinds of prophetic nonsense because they don’t know God’s Word and they exercise zero discernment. When the test for truth is a physical or emotional reaction as interpreted as coming from God, people will buy anything a “prophet” proclaims. I see amateur night sometimes in the Christian Church but as Christians we can call people who have a prophetic word into account for their utterances.
    The words of Paul to Timothy are instructive regarding prophesy: “This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.” (First Tim. 1:18-19)
    The Word of God and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit work in harmony with one another and keep the believer on task and focused regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They keep our ship of faith sailing smoothly when the winds of false doctrine attempt to blow us off course.

  5. falcon says:

    [riffly_audio]8C8BDF2E58E311DDBFCCD6ACAA01D9A4[/riffly_audio]

  6. GRCluff says:

    Jeffery:

    We (Mormons) do put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ– so we are just as saved as many Christians, at least in the way you mean. We may have a disagrement on the nature of God, but if He offers his Grace to all who accept him as you say, then we are in. We can clear up any disagreements on his nature when we are in his presence.

    I am not egotistical enough to believe that we are the only ones who have spiritual gifts, but if you try to say that my experience as a Mormon is somehow less than that of mainstream Christians, then you haven’t met the right Mormons yet.

    Yes the gift of prophesy was ended(before JS):

    Amos 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
    12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

  7. GRCluff says:

    Germit:

    Sorry, I’m not trying to ignore your questions; there am just not enough of me to go around. Don’t get me wrong, I am plenty big, just short on time.

    Let’s see, the son of Perdition – I feel like the Church Lady on SNL—could that be SATAN? Maybe instead the verse could be referencing any one of his significant followers. My personal guess is the Emperor Constantine—he is the one who enforced the development of universal doctrines with a complete rejection of the gift of prophesy.

    I will insist that the apostasy ended when JS restored the missing priesthood authority. That is when the dark ages ended and enlightenment began–

  8. falcon says:

    GRC
    You have quite a story to tell. Unfortunately for you it’s all empty conjecture and pure fantasy. The dark ages ended when JS restored the missing priesthood authority? The gift of prophesy was ended? More Mormon fantasy and total nonsense. But it’s the only way Mormonism works. Mormons have to tell themselves these stories in an effort to convince themselves that Mormonism is true.
    To prove my point: you go pull a couple of verses out of Amos to “prove” that prophesy ended? Amos has a vision of the basket of summer fruit (8:1-14). God showed Amos this ripe fruit explaining that it symbolized Israel, which was now ripe for judgment. Part of this judgement (8:11,12) was that there would be no comforting words for Israel from God. This is about Israel. ISRAEL, in a certain time period in OT history. Using your methodology, those verses could be applied to anything. There are reasons why certain principles are used in Biblical interpretation. And that is to keep people from going off in directions that lead to a lack of accurate understanding and application of scripture.
    Do we have to go through this priesthood thing again. There was no priesthood in the NT Church. It didn’t exist. Christ is our high priest…period. You don’t get to be a priest or a god for that matter.
    See this is what happens when people use “revelation” knowledge and “confirming feelings” to build doctrine. You may as well throw in the idea that there is a mothership hovering over the earth that translates people back and forth with true knowledge and enlightenment. I can find Bible verses that support that idea too.

  9. germit says:

    Falcon: I’ve heard it said about correct biblical interpretation: CONTEXT,CONTEXT,CONTEXT. Well said, we can’t get a proper application for today until we first have an idea of what the scripture meant for the original audience, and that takes some homework. This will seem dry, pedantic, and ‘not spiritual’ to many (even within orthodoxy), as if scholarship and spirit filled were at odds (a la Mr.Cluff), but that is a specious dichotomy, and is foreign to what christianity has stood for since it’s earliest days. GRC: I ‘wikipedia’d’ Hugh B. Brown, and I like this guy: I’ll carry over a quote or two from on a future post, he seemed to be a life long learner, and somewhat of a ‘rebel’ in the good sense of the word: he fought hard (I think) against the whole priesthood ban thing and some would say that was the reason for his demotion from (hope I get this office right) counselorship to the first presidency (is that right LDS friends??). Thanks for your many responses Mr.Cluff, I know we both have a lot going on, I will not forget about the Dead Sea scroll book (have that written down in my study) but I won’t have time to get to that till early Aug. I will note on this post that you LDS folks are strong on STATEMENT (bible is corrupt,arbitrary,mistranslated,etc) and short on evidence to back it up. Actually in your case,GRC, you seem to NOT WANT evidence for fear that it will work AGAINST you faith, what an ODD view, is that a typical LDS stance ?? If so, then we have an explanation for the LDS raging ambivalence about scholarship: love it,love it, love it, until…… more later, thanks again, GERMIT

  10. Jeffrey says:

    Cluff,

    for the sake of the topic, we wont get into exactly how different the LDS Jesus and the Christian Jesus is, and how that may have an effect on Salvation or not. That convo wouldn’t go anywhere anyways.

    Falcon and Germit seemed to have a rather contextual answer for the scripture you quoted. Just as Falcon said, you can find verse after verse in the Bible to support our ideas, but we should be diligent in our study of the verses we perceive to support our particular faith. The Corinthians baptism for the dead verse is used by LDS to support their practice of it, but in context, it actually is in opposition to it being a Holy ordinance.

    Got any more verses Cluff? This is a learning experience for the both of us I think.

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