Rejecting the Cross
Last week (August 9, 2008) Deseret News reported on a lecture given at the Sunstone Symposium by Robert A. Rees, the “former editor of the LDS periodical Dialogue.” “On the Cross of Calvary: Mormons and the Broken Tree” discussed the Mormon view of this “universal symbol of Christianity.”
Deseret News reported:
“[Rees] said there are ‘no good reasons’ why Mormons could not make the cross more central to their religious experience and that rejecting the cross is ‘illogical and unnecessary.’
Mr. Rees pointed out that Latter-day Saints often view the cross symbol negatively. Here in the Minnesota Minneapolis Mission a manual was distributed to missionaries in the mid-1990s that contained a “sample presentation” including a short discussion of the cross. It went like this:
LDS Missionary: “In the end, Mr. Brown, what did the people do to Jesus? That’s right, they crucified him. They rejected the word of God by killing God’s son, Jesus. And after they killed him, they gradually fell into another apostasy. They went through the dark ages and didn’t progress spiritually for hundreds and hundreds of years. …Of course, these people in apostasy were very religious. There were a lot of different churches here on earth, but none of them had a living prophet which means they had no guidance from God – only the wisdom of men. They did remember Jesus and so they used the cross as a symbol of Christianity. But they made many changes in his teachings. What did the Jews use to crucify Jesus? That’s right, a cross. Then really, Mr. Brown, the cross is a sign of what? ‘APOSTASY.’”
If Mormons view the “universal symbol of Christianity” as a sign of apostasy, it makes perfect sense that they would reject the symbol of the cross.
Another reason for the rejection of the cross symbol brought up in the Deseret News article was this:
“Rees said the fact that LDS Church members believe the most crucial elements of the Atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and not on the cross also tend to shift importance away from the cross.”
Late LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explained,
“The sectarian world falsely suppose that the climax of his torture and suffering was on the cross…a view they keep ever before them by the constant use of the cross as a religious symbol. The fact is that intense and severe as the suffering was on the cross, yet the great pains were endured in the Garden of Gethsemane.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 555)
LDS professor Robert L. Millet suggests this is the reason that “for LDS people the acceptance of the Atonement is not symbolized by the cross” (The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, page 168).
But for Christians the cross encapsulates our hope. As pastor John Piper said,
“…for redeemed sinners, every good thing – indeed every bad thing that God turns for good – was obtained for us by the cross of Christ. Apart from the death of Christ, sinners get nothing but judgment. Apart from the cross of Christ, there is only condemnation. Therefore everything that you enjoy in Christ – as a Christian, as a person who trusts Christ – is owing to the death of Christ. And all your rejoicing in all things should therefore be a rejoicing in the cross where all your blessings were purchased for you at the cost of the death of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. …Every blessing in life is designed to magnify the cross of Christ, or to say it another way, every good thing in life is meant to magnify Christ and him crucified.”
In the Old Testament, God told us through the prophet Isaiah,
“He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; …we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His stripes we are healed.” (Isaiah 53:3-5)
In the New Testament we are told that we are to glory in the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross represents the amazing and unsurpassable gift of our redemption through the atoning death of our Savior. This is our focus as Christians. For us, the word of the cross is the power of God (1 Corinthians 1:18).
In 1999 I attended a “VIP tour” of the St. Paul Minnesota Temple. The tour group consisted primarily of pastors and other clergy, led by LDS Seventy Hugh W. Pinnock. In response to a question someone asked about the absence of the cross in the temple Mr. Pinnock explained that, while they respect others who use the cross as a symbol, Latter-day Saints do not use it because “our focus is different.”
So, unlike Mr. Rees who reportedly thinks “there are ‘no good reasons’ why Mormons could not make the cross more central to their religious experience and that rejecting the cross is ‘illogical and unnecessary,’ I think there are several good reasons that Mormons reject the cross, including the fact that the focus of LDS devotion and worship is elsewhere. As President Gordon B. Hinckley said,
“…the lives of our people must become the most meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship.”
Comments (88)
This is actually something that I have looked into recently because I thought it was interesting that the first thing my wife wanted to do when she was delivered from the LDS church was go out and get a cross necklace. I did not understand why because I grew up in the church. Now you mentioned 1 Corinthians 1:18 but I think verse 17 lends some valuable information regarding the Mormon idea that the sacrifice for our sins was done in Gethsemane and not on the cross. It says…
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul was worried that what happened on the cross would be of no effect not what went on in the Garden. Why is that? I tend to believe that he mentioned the cross and not the garden because that is where the climax of the sacrifice happened. While it may have started in Gethsemane, it was completed on the cross. That is why, before he gave up the ghost, Christ proclaimed “It is finished”. The Atonement was not completed and thus valid until Christ said it was.
I concur -when I was saved the first thing I wanted to do was get a cross necklace. The symbol of Christians for centuries has been the cross, not because of apostasy, but because it is paramount to our salvation and we never want to forget that, as 1 Cor 1:178-18 says. The difference between Mormons and Christians (on this point) is that Christians know that without what happened on the cross we could not be saved.
I have heard many a Mormon say “If your brother was murdered with a gun would you wear a symbol of a gun around your neck?” Why is it that when JS was shot at Carthage Jail he was martyred but when Jesus died on the cross He was murdered? A martyr is one who willingly suffers death (I don’t think shooting 3 people in a gun battle qualifies as that) and Jesus absolutely willingly suffered torture and death on the cross so that all who believe can have eternal life with Him and not perish in our sins.
Soy yo – Your post and scripture reference really says it all.
Here is the scripture that Sharon and Andrea cited above:
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18
Jesus death on the cross is the power of God to deliver from death and hell. The scriptures are abundantly clear that we have every reason to look to the cross of Christ for our hope.
To all: I’m going to burn the 3rd post on a very short comment. Hinckley’s comment above is going on a 4″by6″ card to be hung in my study ASAP: ‘the lives of our people must become the most meaningful expression of our faith, and,in fact, therefore, THE SYMBOL OF OUR WORSHIP.” emph.mine This is like (to me) the King Follett discourse come alive, ‘fleshed out’ as it were. This is the great lie of mormonism in a nutshell: YOUR OWN LIFE, YOUR OWN PIETY BECOMES A SYMBOL OF WORSHIP. Some will say I’m putting words in Hinckley’s mouth, so be it, but this is the idolatry of mormonism and WHY CLEAN LIVING CAN BE MORE EVIL THAN THE WORST HELL RAISING IMAGINABLE. This is why LDS ‘don’t get it’ when they are called ‘lost’ and ‘not Christian’: the very IDEA of being apart from God when you are so moral, so fervent, so BELIEVING, is unthinkable and laughable: but here is their idolatry on stage: YOUR LIFE is the pentultimate symbol of worship, not the cross, not the empty tomb, not the crown of thorns, not HIS bloody robe, BUT YOUR OWN CLEAN, ‘OBEDIENT TO GOD’ LIVING. What an affront to a Holy God. How great the patience of our God to not incinerate anyone for saying those words, ON THE SPOT. (although my own disobedience is no better, so I’m as much an object of mercy as GH). This probably seems like raving, and I welcome comments. CLUFF: you have a rebuttal in the works, did you read Acolytes EXCELLENT post?? you seem to just ignore his points, and roll on. aside to BEREAN: your long post just rocked. GERMIT
I learned something interesting about the LDS Church’s teachings in Sunday School last year as we were studying the NT at church. Due to the nature of this article I would like to pose a question in sincerity to find out your beliefs, even if you all have a differeing view on this as I know you are all from different Christian backgrounds. What exactly do you mean by “the shed blood of Christ”?
And to show you why I am asking – Jesus was crucified, which people usually die of either exposure or suffocation, not losing blood. He was already dead before they drove the spear into His side so that was not where He lost the blood to die.
And I will let you know that we do not teach that He shed the blood in the Garden of Gethsemany. We believe that He suffered in the garden for our sins and sicknesses and pains, and that is the first part of the atonement that covers sins. He still had to die on the cross to be resurrected (see Jacob 9 in the BoM as this is our doctrine I think) for all to be resurrected, otherwise we would become subject to the Devil. So both the garden and the cross were equally important to the atonement, but for some reason or another most LDS emphasise the garden – maybe its compensatory for you lot emphasising the cross. Kind of like grace vs works you emphasise one we the other, but we LDS believe that it is both that save us.
As far as our (LDS) belief of what is meant by the shed blood of Jesus, it was His becoming immortal and losing the blood – ie He has a body of flesh and bone NO blood. So I guess from this we can also infer that we focus on His resurrection for the shed blood, not the cross. I thought this was interesting as I had never heard about it until last year, after all these years in church.
Ralph,
The bible teaches us that God required blood atonement for the remission of sins. The clothes (animal skins) that God provided for Adam and Eve were the first and Jesus’ shed blood is the final payment after generations of animal sacrifices. That’s why Jesus said “it is finished”.
I believe the text doesn’t actually say Jesus sweat droplets of blood but that his sweat was like droplets of blood. Have you ever worked so hard that the sweat just pored out of you? Jesus was about to face the cross he knew what kind of death he was facing and more than that he knew at the time of his death his father would have to turn away from him. I think as a fully human person he was only doing what would come normal. It seems like Mormons are putting more emphasis on him sweating blood in the garden then anything he did after that?
Jesus was flogged and probably lost more blood during that torture than on the cross. Jesus was both fully God and fully man which means at the time of his birth and death he had a body of flesh and bones with real blood running through his veins.
It seems to me that in the effort to be mainstream Mr. Rees is saying that recognizing the cross probably wouldn’t hurt the LDS church. I don’t get the impression that there is any real embracing the significance of what the cross of Christ means. It’s kind of like “no harm, no foul”.
As I was thinking about this post and the last, it struck me that all other beliefs/religions diminish the cross and who Jesus is including Mormonism. The only exception is orthodox Christianity. Why is that? It’s because it’s the truth. No other message in history was ever attacked as much as the Gospel of the cross. There must be something to it.
Quite frankly, I think Mormons are out of their element when it comes to the atonement. Their program is one of becoming a god by their own efforts, calling on God only if their efforts at sinless perfection fall short. So the Cross of Christ becomes a rather secondary thing to their own works centered approach to salvation. As Christians we admit to our total depravity and hopeless condition, recognizing that it is only through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross that we have eternal life.
Take the time to read Genesis 15. Abraham believes God and his faith is credited by God as righteousness. There is a sacrifice here, the shedding of blood and a unilateral covenant. The blood covenant was the most serious covenant because if it was broken, life was required. God took the responsibility for our salvation on Himself. This is depicted in the scene in Genesis 15. What is passover all about? Blood of the lamb on the door so that the death angel passes over the house of the believer. This is symbolic of the blood Christ shed on the Cross and it is applied to us. We won’t experience spiritual death but eternal life.
It’s quite instructive that Mormons want to minimize and marginalize the Cross of Christ. It’s one of the signs of a cult. Some of the others being the diminishing of the Bible, down grading Jesus and works trumping grace. Mormons hope to become gods based on a system of works and rituals. They really don’t have much use for the Cross in their program. It’s ancillary and not all that important. As Christians, the Cross reminds us of the terrible price God paid for our salvation. He loved us so much that He died for us, taking our place on the Cross.
Oh, this article and the posts make me want to cry. The cross, the precious cross… The symbol of my crucified Lord dying for me so that I can live. Shedding His blood to cover my sin. His life for mine. This is the core of my faith, the crux of my hope, and the Biblical definition of the gospel “I declare unto you the gospel…how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures” (I Cor. 15:1-4)
The cross was where Christ died not only for my sins, but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:2) so that whoever believes on Him may have everlasting life (John 3:16) by exercising simple faith and accepting His free gift of salvation (Romans 5:17-18). The cross is also where the law with all of its contrariness toward me was nailed and God blotted out the handwriting of those ordinances that were against me (Col. 2:14) so that I could be justified by faith alone (Gal. 3:24). “For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe” (Gal. 3:21-22).
So, who would want to minimize the precious symbol that is central to the Bible’s redemption story?
The Bible describes the type of person for whom the cross is not precious or central: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt” (Romans 4:4)…”For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse, for it is written ‘Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them” (Gal. 3:10).
Paul describes the result for those who mix law with grace: “For if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (Gal. 2:21)
(cont. in next post)
If I understand the LDS intention to be “the symbol of our faith is not a physical token (for instance, a cross), but our lives”, then I would say a hearty “Amen”.
I also think that the LDS interpretation of God having a body and bone with no blood is way off the mark. We might as well interpret Psalm 91:4 as saying that God is a species of cosmic chicken.
Presumably, what’s driving this post is a concern that LDS teaching diminishes the work of Christ, be it in Gethsemane or on the cross itself. The assertion is that it does so by throwing the burden of redemption back upon ourselves; as in “the sacrifice of Jesus was a good example, but its up to us to generate the spiritual capital needed to actually make it work”.
Arianism, in all its forms, inevitably binds us into a religion of self-effort because it cannot acount for a God who sacrifices himself and thus offers the one perfect and complete atonement for all our sins for all time. It has no meeting place for God and man – God remains ‘unrevealed’ and we remain in our struggles to follow Jesus’ unequalled example, not knowing how God might react to our efforts.
But in the Mormon gospel we see that we are only saved by grace “after all we can do” and that His grace is only sufficient for us “if we shall deny ourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all our might, mind and strength” (Moroni 10:32).
The Bible says we cannot be married to the law and to Christ. We have to become dead to the law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4-6) so that we can serve God in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter.
There is no way to gain spiritual victory over sin until we die to the law by identification with Christ in His death (Romans 7:4-6 and Gal. 2:19) so that we can say like Paul “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me” (Gal. 2:20)
I believe this is the secret of true spiritual power and victory over sin, but it is only for those who are “new creatures” in Christ (Gal. 6:15, II Cor. 5:17), who have embraced the true Jesus (the LORD God who is worthy of our worship), as their Savior and have received His “free gift” of righteousness which cannot be earned, but must simply be received (Romans 5:17-18, 4:5).
P. S. “Free Gift” is for us slow people… a gift is already free so it’s kind of dumb to say “free gift” but we are so slow to get it and we are always trying to earn what can’t be earned that the Bible has to make it double clear like that…
To JessicaJoy and other loggers here;
There’s much to be gained from the Biblical references. I would love to get into further discussion about how Paul interprets the life and work of Jesus, but this is getting off topic. We’ve got to drag in the alien pronouncements of some 19th Century post-enlightenment North Americans who showed a remarkable lack of comprehension in dealing with these writings.
When the Cross is diminished, JessicaJoy is right to cry and Germit is right in asserting that our righteousness becomes the object of our faith and worship. In polar contrast to pagan religions, which assert that we do the sacrificing in order to get the deity to respond favourably, the Christian Gospel asserts that God sacrifices himself (not by proxy) in order that we might respond in love.
Here’s the rub; without the Christ who is God, Christianity fails. Mormonism, however, survives because it rests upon the ‘restoration’ of a dynastical preisthood. Does the cross of Christ actually matter to the latter view? Seems to me to be something of a side-show.
Folks,
I was telling my long distance friend Berean the other day that the longer I’m out on this blog interacting with Mormons the more I’m becoming a Calvinist, which I wasn’t when I started here. JessicaJoy says the Cross of Christ brings her to tears. JJ get’s it! Why does she get it? Why do we Christians get it, but our Mormon friends don’t get it despite having all of the information before them? I may start to believe in double predestination pretty soon.
I was watching a Mormon missionary training video and the trainer made a big point out of the fact that the MM should always take the prospect to that “little grove of trees”. Of course that’s where JS had his vision, which version of the vision he was promoting, I don’t know. It’s all about Joseph Smith to Mormons. I think it was either Dwight Moody or Charles Spurgeon who said regarding preaching, “I start with my text and make a beeline for the Cross.” Do we see the difference here? To Christians, Jesus and His Cross are the foundation upon which our faith is built. To Mormons, the foundation is Joseph Smith. Mormon Grant Palmer, author of “An Insiders View of Mormon Origins” said that Mormons need to start emphasizing Jesus. I would say to Mr. Palmer,”Why would you do that?” It’s all about you and your achievement of becoming a god. Jesus is just one of many gods, one of which you hope to become. What’s so special about Jesus in that scenario?
Mormons like conspiracy theories regarding the “apostasy” and the “corruption of the Bible”. Let me give them another one. Who besides Satan gains if a group of people claim that god is a man, men can become gods, Jesus is a superhero kind of god, and most importantly, the Cross isn’t what it really is.
Jessica, Martin, and so many others have had such amazing posts today!
Ralph said, “And I will let you know that we do not teach that He shed the blood in the Garden of Gethsemany.” I was taught since Primary that Christ bled from every pore when he prayed in the Garden because he was suffering for our sins. Maybe in your Mormon experience they haven’t taught it, but it was certainly there in mine.
Also, you said “As far as our (LDS) belief of what is meant by the shed blood of Jesus, it was His becoming immortal and losing the blood – ie He has a body of flesh and bone NO blood. So I guess from this we can also infer that we focus on His resurrection for the shed blood, not the cross. I thought this was interesting as I had never heard about it until last year, after all these years in church.” The gospel of Christ is open to all -it’s right there in the Bible. There aren’t any secret beliefs that one learns down the road, which sounds a lot like the Mason’s and Scientology’s (and others’) “degrees” or levels of initiation. The fact that there are beliefs and points of doctrine in Mormonism that other Mormons do not know about appalls me for 2 reasons. First, I don’t want anyone telling me what I do and don’t believe. I can figure it out for myself by reading the Bible; if I have a question I discuss it with a pastor. Second, how can you follow a religion when you don’t know about everything it believes and teaches?? The shed blood of Christ is key to the gospel and you have theories on what “shed blood actually means”. It means the perfect sinless Son of God was tortured and beaten (try not bleeding when you’re getting hit repeatedly) and crucified (driving nails through someone’s hands would definitely make them bleed) so that our sins could be forgiven!
My next thought would make this post too long, so I’ll continue…
It’s funny that I had this discussion with my true believing mormon sister just the other day. I said that was one of the things I struggled with. When you realize that the church teaches all through our youth that they have no symbolisms and idols or rituals, per se. Then you grow up and find that’s not the way it is. And the one symbol they should embrace IS the cross, not the markings on their garments. When I was bringing home my point about the cross being so aversive to mormons, I got the same old death thing, which is easy to counter, but then my sister reminded me that this world was the only one evil enough to crucify its savior. So, there you go, just another point of contention……..
To All: Kitty wrote (her TBM sister’s qt) “the world was the only one evil enough to crucify its savior…” Meditate on that little pearl of not-so-great-price and then ask yourself, “hmmm, who DID crucify the savior…who could POSSIBLY be that evil…small hint: whose hands did Mr.Mel G. use for the ‘nailing to the cross’ scene in “PASSION” ?? this thread just gets better and better For Ralph: I couldn’t add much to what MikeB said about “the shed blood”. this goes all the way back to Abraham, if not before, ‘a life for a life’ and underscores how Christ bought our lives back with His life (and to the ancient Jews, the life of an individual was thought to be found in the blood) I think the sense is Christ’s complete and finished payment for our redemption: no blood, no completed deal, that’s how God the Father sees it. GERMIT
(cont’d)
I believe something I remember hearing may shed some light on why Mormons do not emphasize the cross. We know that exalted Mormons go on to be gods and creators of their own world, with which they then get to do whatever they like. They can follow their god’s example and send one man to save the world or they can come up with a totally different plan. Therefore, although Jesus was crucified on a cross for this world’s plan of salvation, it is only one means to an end in the grand scheme of things.
And as Kitty’s sister pointed out, Mormons see his death on the cross is not an act of salvation but of murder. So essentially they believe that their Jesus didn’t have to die on the cross and they would still “be saved” -he only had to die at some point to be resurrected so that they can have eternal life. Any other Christians offended by this? Cuz I know I am. Bottom line, Mormons see the cross as evil, Christians see it as…well, I don’t know if there are enough words to describe the awe, wonder, amazement, love, gratefulness, debt, admiration, etc that Christians feel when we think about the cross.
Latter-day Saints believe Jesus of Nazareth was and is the only Begotten of the Father. He lived a sinless, perfect life and was offered as the Lamb of God to atone for the sins of the world and overcome physical death. He was the only one capable of accomplishing this mission. Beginning in the garden of Gethsemane, He experienced ALL of the spiritual, mental, and physical consequences of all of mankind’s sins from Adam to the end of the world. His suffering was infinite, resulting in blood coming from every pore of His body. None other could endure what He endured for any length of time without suffering immediate death. In addition to suffering all of the punishment for mankind’s sins, we believe he ALSO experienced every physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual pain ever experienced by mankind. This includes every depression, sadness, loneliness, physical malady, or fear- EVERY form of suffering ever endured by man. He did this to enable Him to understand, heal, and lift all of God’s children through their lives. We ALSO believe that as the creator of not only this earth, but countless other planets, He also endured the above suffering for all of those people on those countless planets.
Such pains lasted approximately 6 hours in the garden. After an unlawful trial through the night, He was whipped, spat upon, mocked, and laughed at by conspiring men. After being condemned, he was nailed to a cross and hanged as a criminal. While on the cross, the infinite suffering He had experienced in the garden returned and lasted approximately 3 more hours. When all the Father had asked of Him was accomplished, He “voluntarily gave up the Ghost.” Continued….
After His body lay in the sepulcher for 3 days, His spirit took up that body, making Him “the first fruits of them that slept.” Again, no other could do such a thing- only the Son of God, possessing the power of God.
We believe that His miraculous and loving sacrifice becomes operational in each person’s life when he or she accepts Him as the Savior of the world, repents of sin, is baptized by immersion, receives the Gif of the Holy Ghost, and strives to follow Him.
Each of our prayers is offered in His name. We take His name upon us each week during the sacrament and promise to always remember Him and keep His commandments.
For someone to tell me that I am not a Christian feels like someone telling me that the thing I drive to work in the morning is not a car because the color of mine is different than theirs. If anything, there is no system of belief that esteems Christ more highly than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We believe He suffered more for each individual, and that He suffered for infinitely more individuals than any other theological construct.
DJ,
All of that sounds really good and we could probably agree that the amount of suffering Christ went through but we don’t agree on who you say Jesus is. So that leaves you with a false Jesus. The true Jesus of the Bible warned us about just this.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Your faith is admirable but it is only as good as what you put it in. When you stand before the Judgment seat of Christ it won’t be the Christ you learned from Joseph Smith.
What you profess is perfectly summed up in Romans chapter 10. 1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
DJ,
I agree with 90% of what you said. I don’t know about other people on other planets but it’s not essential to my salvation so let’s move on.
* “We believe that His miraculous and loving sacrifice becomes operational in each person’s life when he or she accepts Him as the Savior of the world, repents of sin, is baptized by immersion, receives the Gif(t) of the Holy Ghost, and strives to follow Him.” Take out that part about receiving the HG only after baptism (and the laying on of hands) and I’m with ya. I believe we receive the HG once we truly accept Jesus into our hearts and baptism is an outward sign of our devotion. (Acts 1:5, Mark 1:8, John 7:39)
* “We take His name upon us each week during the sacrament” I take His name upon me every minute of every day. What’s the purpose of the sacrament for Mormons? Yes, the prayer promises to keep His commandments and always remember Him, but the sacrament is also for the forgiving of sins. Your time to reflect on what sins were committed in the last week and confess them quietly to God. Very Catholic if you ask me.
* “For someone to tell me that I am not a Christian feels like someone telling me that the thing I drive to work in the morning is not a car because the color of mine is different than theirs. If anything, there is no system of belief that esteems Christ more highly than the Church” Obviously the LDS believe Christ’s atonement is of great importance, but His atonement is not central in the body of the church -the work that JS did is. Christ’s atonement is a foundation but not enough for you; to truly receive salvation one must go through temple rituals et al and that is NOT Christian.
Here’s the problem, again. Mormons believe in a different god, a different Jesus, a different plan of salvation……they reject the Cross of Christ. And they want to be called Christians and claim to be saved? They claim that their prophet, who was a practioner of occult magic arts, “restored” original Christianity. When confronted with the knowledge that the Bible doesn’t include any of their basic religious beliefs and practices such as plural marrage, sacred underware with Masonic symbols, temple rituals, and the priesthood, we are told that a major conspiracy left all of this out of the Bible. And despite the fact that it has been proven that the BoM is a pure fantasy, they cling to a “feeling” that it’s all true.
This is why I am becoming a strict Calvinist. In fact MikeB in an above post references “the elect”. Mormons, with their rejection of the Cross and Christian doctrine are definitely “nonelect”. It all makes perfect sense to me now.
This is a little off topic, but I need to comment on my friend falcon’s off-topic comments: easy on the Calvinism, my friend… you have to slash some passages out of your Bible to embrace all 5 points And we really shouldn’t be speculating on someone’s elect or non-elect status (would be happy to discuss further if you want-email me).
My heart is very burdened for my Mormon friends and that’s why I’m on here and trying to understand all I can about Mormonism – I do believe my Mormon friends are deceived and following a false Christ and a false gospel, but this should bring heaviness and continual sorrow to my heart as it did to Paul’s when contemplating those he believed were lost (Romans 9:2-3).
I love Mormons. I don’t know how to effectively communicate with them. I know they are offended that I think they are lost. I don’t mean to offend. I truly desire to see them come to love the cross as I love the cross and to find freedom and victory over sin that can only be found through the true Jesus who overcame death and sin at the cross. I desire to see them come to an understanding of the “free gift” of grace so they are not burdened down with a load of guilt and condemnation when trying to live up to an impossible gospel that demands perfection, makes false promises it can’t keep, and offers no hope.
That’s what motivates me to try to learn and understand Mormons in order to more effectively communicate with them.
I will continue to reject the cross for the same reason I reject the gun or the knife that the last killer used to commit his/her most recent murder.
Of what worth is an instument of death? Why would I want to remember the manner of anyone’s death?
It is life and the celebration of life that is worthwhile. Let us remember the resurrection, not the crucifixion!
JessicaJoy,
My sentiments exactly. I believe that you are in the path of error and that you are the one needing rescuing to the true Gospel of Heavenly Father and Jesus. However having said that, I am not on here to convert anyone as some of you seem to be, I am here to try and answer questions or point out wrong ideas about our (LDS) belief.
As for you saying that we feel offended – I certainly don’t feel offended. I am slightly bemused that you feel you are right and I am wrong and that you will not contemplate that it could be that way. But you have your belief and I have mine, so why should I feel offended that yours is somewhat opposed to mine?
Berean,
Again, all of those quotes do not state explicitly what you want them to. There are other ways they can be interpreted as meaning. I never disagreed that spirit children may be born the way mortal children are, but it is never taught as doctrine nor is it seen as doctrine. So I oppose your view and ask you to stop saying that it is unless you can show me conclusively that it is seen/taught as doctrine. If you keep saying that it is doctrine when it isn’t you are bearing false witness. And just because we believe in a full physical resurrection and an eternal family unit does not mean anything in the context you are saying. When we are resurrected we will have a fully developed/functioning pulmonary system, but if we are immortal do we still need to breath? Our hearts and vascular system will be functional but we will not have blood – is there something different or will it remain empty? We will have a full gastro-system (ie stomach, intestines, etc) will we have to eat or remove waste? We will be immortal, why have all of these systems still intact? I don’t know the answers to these, and the same goes with the reproductive system.
GRCluff, that is just silly. Christ died on a cross to save His sheep. It is a stark reminder that before He could rise again, He first had to die and in doing so bore the wrath of God for sin. Without thee cross, there is no redemption, without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Those who reject the Christ of the Bible, muslim, atheist and mormon see the cross as something ugly. Christians see the cross as the method Christ used to save His people.
(BTW Jessica, again off topic but it takes a lot more Scripture ignoring to deny Calvinism
Love to talk to you about it…
http://thesidos.blogspot.com/
Falcon, right on brother!)
GRCluff,
I really feel like you have to just IGRNORE all the scriptures that point us to the cross in order to hold on to your beliefs – here’s one for you to think about:
“May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.” Galatians 6:14
Oh, and how about another one:
“but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles” 1 Cor 1:23
And another:
“For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.” 1 Cor 2:2
Boast in, know nothing except, preach – the cross and Christ crucified. Seems like God is telling us just how important and what kind of emphasis we should place on the cross…
Well thank you Aurthur.
Nice to get some love out here occasionally. Keeps me going. JESSICA you intimated that my remarks regarding Calvinism was off topic. Please go back and read again what I said. We are dealing here with the topic of Mormons rejecting the Cross of Christ. As usual, the reasons/excuses for doing so have the effect of denying the means by which God chose to rescue us from our sins. The Cross is grim and sobering. While some of our Mormon friends pull out the very weak argument that the Cross is a symbol of murder, God sees it,again, as the method by which He chose to rescue us. To switch the atonement to the Garden, or some other fanciful explanation, is a further attempt to diminish the Cross. And these folks want to be called Christians?
So my remarks regarding Calvinist theology, were an attempt, by me to find an explanation of why, when given all of the evidence regarding Mormonism, Mormons continue to reject the God of the Bible, diminish the Word of God, believe in a created Jesus, reject God’s grace for an attempt to create their own righteousness and cling to a religious foundation which is connected to the occult? My answer was, maybe Calvin had something there with his TULIP explanation. Why do some Mormons go “BONK” and get it, while others dutifully march off to the Crossless temple with its occult symbols and do rituals where some Mormons claim to have seen the spirits of dead people? A spirit of delusion? Is that what keeps these Mormons under a shroud and “unable” to believe. I don’t know, but Christians don’t seem to have any trouble understanding the Cross and it’s significance. Mormons avoid the Cross which is the only pathway to eternal life.
I’m sure you all saw this coming, but please refrain from any discussion regarding the merits (or demerits) of Calvinism. Though it’s a good topic for discussion, this isn’t the place for it. Thanks! -Mod.
Cluff and others: “of what worth is an instrument of death. Why would I want to remember the manner of anyone’s death?” Cluff, my friend, you ask (on occaision) EXCELLENT questions. small suggestion: reread this thread, and you could get a real treat. try to get past the idea of the cross merely being the death of a morally perfect individual, you have a very good head on those 48 yr old shoulders (hope your b-day week has been kicks and grins) FALCON: you’ve probably heard the stat: 7 yrs from their time of first exposure to the gospel for the avg converting MUSLIM to take the plunge; do we expect much different from other strong delusions?? Take a deep breath, look UP, and reload. DJB: one of us is not only driving a different colored car: ONE of our cars will not and cannot get us to where the travel agency guys promised, and that will be a very serious matter indeed. That might be me, it might be you: don’t trivialize the issue, we are BOTH not driving real cars, one of us has the shell of something that really works (JS was very up front and honest about this, which I very much appreciate). Ralph: I’m with Berean: your church avoids spelling out where their “parts and pieces” logically, and necessarily take them for PR and proselytizing reasons. I know that sounds cranky or harsh, but to an outsider (which is admittedly me) the ‘it’s not doctrine’ thing just does not fly far. GERMIT
Hi Ralph,
You said “I am slightly bemused that you feel you are right and I am wrong and that you will not contemplate that it could be that way. But you have your belief and I have mine, so why should I feel offended that yours is somewhat opposed to mine?”
“Bemused” is not at all how I would describe this situation. It deeply burdens and troubles me that others may have a false gospel and a false Christ. The reason it doesn’t trouble you and you can be rather indifferent about this disagreement, is because your gospel says it really will be okay either way. Because I’m a Christian and believe in Jesus (even if He’s a different Jesus than yours) is okay with you. I’ll still make it to a pretty good place in the hereafter. I might not get the BEST that the Mormon gospel has to offer, but I will get second or third best.
This is NOT the gospel that Paul and Jesus preached (Luke 16:19-31, II Thess. 1:8-9). This “indifference” is NOT why Jesus had to pay the ultimate sacrifice to lay down His life to pay for our sin because there was no other way for humans to be reconciled to a holy God and escape the eternal torment awaiting those who reject Him. And that is why your response in contemplating others you consider to be in “error” is so different from theirs (Matthew 23:1-37, Romans 9:2-3).
Kitty said
What all Christians see to have forgoten to add is this, It was not us the mere humans that crucifed Jesus, but God the father.
the Bible tells us this,
Jesus laid down His life. then read,
It was God the fathers plan all along, it was not like God saying Ooops, how did that happen.
Plus the death of Jesus by Cross is prophecyed all through out the OT. It was not a new thing that just happend. Rick b
Somebody seeking to learn about America would be ill-advised to use Al Jazeera as a source of information. It seems clear that most non-LDS people who post here have no interest in learning anything from LDS about their beliefs. You have made up your mind and it is closed. Any other claim is totally disingenuous. Many comments here are shockingly childish and disrespectful. The willingness to demean and mock what to others are sacred beliefs is truly staggering. After someone relates their heartfelt testimony of Christ and His offering for them, they are told they are going to outer darkness and eternal hell. Answering a question, I provide a list of fulfilled prophecies in the Book of Mormon and one response calls Joseph Smith a “wilderness shyster.” A discussion of the nature of God degenerates into vulgar comments about His Genitalia.
When I think of what it means to be Christian, I do not think of persons scouring through scandalous material, picking out selected tidbits to make another look bad. I do not think Christianity is laughing while telling another they are going to hell. I do not think it is spending ones life tearing down and mocking another religion. But a person can convince himself of anything. You have obviously convinced yourselves that you represent Christianity and that you are doing Christ’s work. When I think of Christianity I think of the good Samaritan. I think of Christ washing the feet of those He loved. I think of His statement that “by this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” I think of Christ’s plea with the Father to “forgive them father, for they know not what they do.” In saying this, I am not running from challenging discussion, I simply recognize this place for what it is.
Continued…
Continued…
By the way, it is fairly obvious that ya’ll know very little about the Book of Mormon or our beliefs about the atonement. I would bet anything that if truth be known, very few if any of the non-LDS people commenting here (who were never LDS) have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. Yet you have the audacity to claim a deeper and more thorough understanding of the book than individuals who have studied it their whole lives. (I lost count around my 70th time reading it many years ago). Your claims to any real understanding of the primary text are silly. You simply regurgitate that which you have read in arguments from other people. Remember the warning to those who “make a man an offender for a word.” That is what this site is all about. If that is what you want to do with your lives- that is up to you. So forward. Forward with your Jihad
DJB: passionate post, and I put a premium on passion, too much of what is “news” is sensual, in the broadest sense of the word, and so temporal. I will go on record (perhaps for accountability, if for no other reason) as saying I have NOT read the BofM cover to cover, although there are two or three copies of it around the house. I’m working my way thru the PofGrprce, almost finished, and will then get back to the BofM. I’ve been convicted lately that my posts don’t reflect primary source material nearly often enough, and I will try and step that up. I will note that the ‘Al Jazeera’s’ mentioned above OFTEN, not always, are LAVISH with primary source material (the Tanners come to mind) and are often LDS in background, sometimes for several gererations (again the Tanners come to mind). You would surely say that they misrepresent your faith, but IF your faith is a collection of lies, how could a proponent of a collection of lies give out the truth?? How could the Catholic priests during the dark middle ages give out the truth of the gospel?? Wouldn’t they say that YOU are horrible misreprenting THEIR faith, and on top of that YOU ARE NOT EVEN CATHOLIC, SO HOW CAN YOU MAKE A RIGHT JUDGMENT?? I’m not plugging catholicism here, only showing you some fallacies to your post: and let me be clear that I would make NO defence for the mocking or disrespect of those who post here (that probably happens and shouldn’t) I might change my mind on this, but it’s hard for me to feel bad for an occaisional, even regular swipe at JS. To me he is the false priest at Mt. Carmel, and to suggest that ‘maybe his God is resting (literally taking a pee)’ will happen and I can’t say ’sorry’ for that: I respect your fervency and right to worship, but your religion itself does not demand my respect, I know this looks like splitting a frog hair. As I continue to ‘do my homework’ I’d ask a short question; who understood Methodism in 1830 better, JS or the Methodists ? Door swngs 2ways,GERMIT
DJB,
What it means to be a Christian is to preach Christ crucified. The Mormons don’t preach that. I’m qualified because I was a Mormon, and served a mission to Sweden. I have read the BOM numerous times. I am not ignorant of the teachings of the Mormon Church. But for those who haven’t read the BOM, they have read the Bible. They know God’s word. The BOM isn’t God’s word. It is not a requirement to read the BOM because it does not lead to salvation. I find it curious that you would boast on how many times you have read the BOM. When you speak of what it means to be a Christian, you speak of works. Yes, works are part of being a Christian, but they are only in response to the grace God shed on humanity when He sent His only Son to the cross to die for our sins. You label us as audacious with the same tongue you speak of Christ-like qualities. And, if anyone is making the Mormons look bad, its the leaders, your esteemed prophets and apostles who cannot preach Christ crucified, but preach Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane. It seems to me that Mormons, starting with their leaders, are ashamed of the cross. You know, anybody can demonstrate Christ-like behaviors, but when they are performed outside the context of Christ on the cross, such works are merely philanthropy. With your charge to God to forgive us for we know not what we do, I must say that we do know what we are doing: we are preaching Christ crucified as did the apostles and all other followers. You accuse our exegesis as silly. Well, I think exegeting passages on Christ crucified are fairly straight forward. Are you ashamed of the cross, DJB? The work of salvation was finished for you on the cross. There is nothing you or anyone else could ever do to earn your own salvation or enhance upon the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. I am no longer ashamed of the cross, but preach it with boldness; and I preach against heresy with the same boldness. Anyone who does not believe
contd
in Christ and what He did on the cross as the ultimate in the work of salvation needs to repent. Believing in another Christ does not qualify. One must believe in the biblical Jesus who came forth from the Father and Who has always been God, a Jesus who emptied Himself and took on the form of man to teach us how to love, and to demonstrate that love for us on Calvary. One must believe that one is made righteous on the merits of Jesus Christ alone, and not on his works. One is made holy through the working of the Holy Spirit, not on his works. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross” (Col. 1:19-20). It’s all about the cross, and I will not idly stand by while non-believers denigrate the cross to the status of a mere weapon. May the grace of God be with you as you defend that which is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
“It seems clear that most non-LDS people who post here have no interest in learning anything from LDS about their beliefs. You have made up your mind and it is closed.”
I’m going to make an assumption that most of us commenting here have either already studied the LDS or have been LDS themselves. So yes, we have made up our minds. But mine, for one, is not closed.
I do want to learn everything about what temple-endowed Mormons believe, but there’s never a clear answer. Some believe this, some believe that, all secretly may believe one thing but would never admit to it outside of the company of other saints. But the reason I want to learn everything about LDS beliefs is selfish -my passion is to love Mormons and bring them to the true Christ of the Bible, just as my sister did with me. I often get frustrated in talking with LDS; it’s like talking to a defense lawyer who cares nothing for the truth but will defend his client(faith) till the cows come home. And sometimes we just want to take you by the shoulders and shake you until you can see the truth, but we know that we need instead to take you by the hand and give you all the tools you’ll need to make that decision. We can’t force you to do anything and it frustrates us because there’s a HUGE weight on the scales -your eternal salvation. Your chance to live forever with God, or to deny Him and live eternally apart from Him. I know you sincerely believe that the LDS Church is the true church but you can’t see the forest for the trees. You don’t know what you don’t know, and what we Christians know is the awesome, powerful, wonderful saving grace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ. I’ve never heard of a ‘true-believing’ Christian converting to Mormonism; it’s usually people who consider themselves Christian but don’t really know the Bible, don’t really go to church, and don’t have a deep, personal relationship with Christ. Yet tons of true-believing Mormons are “converting” to Christianity. Why is that??
cont’d
Mormonism is really pretty shiny paper with a big bright bow wrapped around lump of coal. It’s a farce of what God really wants for us. Yes we should be moral and loving but Christians do it out of obedience to God because He loves us enough to save us, not so that obedience to God WILL save us. I know that I have been less than loving on here at times and I apologize. But honestly, the most caustic, childish, and sarcastic comments have come from the LDS on this board.
One question though, why is talking about a penis and a vagina and sex considered “vulgar comments”?
DJBrown,
“Somebody seeking to learn about America would be ill-advised to use Al Jazeera as a source of information.” True but irrelevant. if someone wants to learn about God, he or she should go to God’s revelation about Himself, the Bible. When someone teaches something about God that differs with what the Bible teaches, we should point it out. You can read the BoM a million times and it doesn’t tell you much at all about mormonism. I know that I know a lot more about mormon history and doctrine than I ever did in the church, because instead of swallowing the sanitized stuff the brethren fed me, I read for myself what was being taught. Many of us as fo-mo’s are concerned to tell others what has become apparent to us, that mormonism is a lie and that salvation is not found in some tidy temple in Salt Lake City, but on a bloody, rugged cross on a hill where Jesus Christ took upon Himself the penalty for the sins of the elect and in doing so bought their redemption. That is Christianity and that is not what mormonism teaches.
DJ brown,
I hate to tell you this, but your so wrong about us or me not wanting to learn. I have read all the standerd works, the Bible, BoM, D and C the Pearl and even the J.S.T.
Then I have my favorite Bible verse, Rom 2:11, my favorite BoM verse 1 Nephi 1:7 and my Favorite D and C chapter, 129, I am even seriously thinking of having D and C 129 tattoed on my Arm. I have Rom 2:11 on my arm along with two other Tats.
I seriously would engage LDS to the point where they would accuse me of only ready Non-LDS books, so I went and started buying and reading LDS books. I can email you my list if you want, but for starts I own the 1920 BoM, the 1883 D and C an 1888 Pearl and the entire JoD. So dont try and tell me I am not for real, I even scannded chapter of these books on my Blog to prove to LDS that asked for evidence.
While I have my favorite Verse or chapter from your books, I love them because I use them to witness to LDS, My Use of D and C 129 stumped an LDS member to the point of a smile but saying, I am not able to give you an honest answer. So I for one am more serious than you think, but the LDS just refuse to give me honest answers, or simply cannot answer me, Like DoF simply trys and makes it out like I am not posing solid evidence. So in fact some LDS are the ones that are afraid but then try and make us out to be not interested. Rick b
Editor pls delete my last comment, my cat hit enter for me while I was typing lol.
DJBrown: I can understand your very depth of feeling towards the subject, but I must object to the vocabulary you used.
I recently served in Iraq and the term jihad means a religious war conducted by Muslims against who they believe to be infidels.
“jihad [(ji-hahd, ji-had)]
In Islam, a holy war; a war ordained by God. The Koran teaches that soldiers who die in jihad go to heaven immediately.”
As being a target of a actuall jihad, and loosing friends to an actual jihad in an IED blast. Jihads are NOT commentary by semi-friendly people on a message board. Also correct me if Im wrong but im noticing a serious lack of Muslims on this message board.
Your insensitive comment sent this investigator back to think again, ohh btw ive already read the BoM up until Helaman 8.
DJBrown,
I think you need to address all the scriptural references pointing to the cross and Christ crucified as our source of redemption. I think we should deal with the truth – not personal testimonies. Mormons don’t use the cross and they denigrate Christians for promoting a “murder weapon.”
Show us how all these scriptures – even the method of God’s redemption from the Old Testament times through Christ death on the cross, all based on the sacrificial atonement – show us how all this is wrong and we should NOT use the cross. Why the animosity to the cross if what you posted first is what Mormons truly believe?
Mormons preach a different gospel, just as was warned against in scripture. Explain how you don’t in light of all the scriptural evidence for the preeminence of the crucifixion – the culmination of the entire temple sacrificial system instituted by God. I don’t see any scriptures where the apostles are preaching “remember the Garden of Gethsemane.”
The scriptures forbid the building of any temples except for the one in Jerusalem for sacrifices – and yet the Book of Mormon describes how the transplanted Israelites supposedly built a temple here in the Americas and Mormons today build temples all over. How is that? Jesus fulfilled the purpose of the temple by giving himself as the final sacrifice. The cross is the symbol of that sacrifice. The temple is no longer needed. We are to look to the cross and Christ crucified.
If anyone has a problem with the Cross, they should take it up with God. It was His choice of the time, place and means of His redemption of mankind. Moromism isn’t a heretical or aberrant sect of Christianity. It is an entirely different religion whereby the Bible, God’s Word, is merely an ancillary text. In Mormonism the Bible is diminished in stature, there’s a different god, a different Jesus, a different means of salvation and the substitution of occult symbols for the Cross, the result is a clever (or maybe not so clever) counterfiet of the Christian faith.
Joseph Smith didn’t want his religion to look like Christianity because he proclaimed Christianity an abomination. Mormons do everything possible, including high jacking Christian terms, to look like the First Baptist Church. How long will it be before Mormons start wearing Cross necklaces? Not very likely. Why? Satan hates the Cross.
Falcon: cross necklaces not very likely?…don’t bet the farm, yes Satan hates the cross, and even toying with the symbol is playing with fire, but underline what you said about wanting to look like the first baptist church. think about the great efforts the LDS church is making to underscore their distinctives and look like some kind of brother or cousin to mainstream churches. Don’t expect hymns and prayer built around the cross, but a piece of wood or plastic hung around the neck, I think the enemy could roll with that, many groups don’t mind wearing the jewelry (have you seen MTV lately??) Those who want a GREAT snapshot of the historical and philosophical forces that led up to mormonism, read “Fit Bodies,Fat Minds” by Os Guinness. He follows the anti-intellectual trends in the american, esp the evngelical church, and how christians have come to de-value the mind. Mormons are NOT the only ones playing this ‘that’s just the wisdom of men’ game. more later: GERMIT
JessicaJoy,
Sorry but when I said bemused, I meant bemused, not because I don’t care, I’m just bemused at your (plural – meaning all of you Christians on this site) attitude towards the LDS. The fact is I do care about your eternal endpoint, and believe me – the Celestial Kingdom is the way to go, nowhere else is good enough. But most people here judge us LDS on a two faced basis – you want us to show you proof of different things knowing that we can’t because our religion is based on faith. On the flip-side, you cannot show proof of your religion because it too is on faith, but that is not an issue with you, you say it is the LDS issue. To show what I mean here is a small excerpt from a book I am reading called “Futureshocks”. It’s a series of short stories and the one I am quoting from is “Before the Beginning”. They had invented a machine that could show past, present and future events like a movie so here’s the quote –
In a past thread I posted a good comment from an atheist saying something similar. Can’t find it now. So I will go about doing what I know is right because I have been told by Heavenly Father it is correct. I have my evidences and a truly spiritual confirmation. I will answer questions on this site as best I can and point out the wrong things in order to defend the truth. If it converts someone then all the better, but these forums are not the best place/situation for a true conversion.
Why do Mormons not like the cross? I won’t repeat the other outstanding posts that have already been offered by the good Christians on here. I will instead offer a different twist. After a Christian has been involved in exorcisms, studied demonology and the occult, demon possession, etc., it is known right from the beginning why those that are in bondage in Satan’s realm are absolutely repulsed by the sight of the cross especially the crucifix. I’m serious when I say this. I’m not saying that Mormons are demon possessed, but they have been deceived by Satan and are indirectly influenced by him who is an angel of light that masquerades, serving a different Jesus, gospel and spirir contrary to that of Bible scripture (C Cor 11:4-14). Much could be said about this, but I want to offer some visual evidence of known occultic symbols of Satan that are readily seen on Mormonism buildings. The cross doesn’t and can’t coincide with these markings.
Pentagram on the LDS Museum of Church History and Art:
http://www.hismin.com/pentagram2.html
Pentagrams on the planter’s box at the LDS visitor’s center:
http://www.hismin.com/pentagram3.html
Pentagrams on the Salt Lake Temple:
http://www.hismin.com/templepentagrams.html
“What communion hath light with darkness?”
(2 Corinthians 6:14)
I appreciate the posts. Many questions to answer- so just a few responses. I do not want to talk past eachother here. When I say what I believe, please take me for my word and not tell me I am lying or that you know better.
As far as the cross issue, I really see absolutely no issue. I deeply, deeply respect and honor the symbol of the cross wherever I see it. It means a great deal to me. Of course the LDS doctrine fully embraces everything that occured on the cross at Calvary. There is absolutely no other means of salvation, but through the sacrifice that occured there. We simply believe that what occured in Gethsemane was also a part of the atonement.
Because we do not physically use the cross on our buidings or wear them on our bodies does not mean we reject the cross which reference is used figuratively in the Bible to represent Christ’s sacrifice. We simply choose to emphasize more importantly the empty tomb and the reality of His triumph. I honestly see no conflict here. You physically use the cross as a symbol of your faith. We have faith in the very same thing.
As far as the LDS leadership not teaching Christ- I don’t know what to say. I attend every general conference, read all their speaches and writings. The sacrifice of Christ is at the center of everything we believe and hope and everything they teach. To say we do not preach Christ is simply not honest. You might say we differ in some doctrine, but you cannot say we do not preach Christ as the only means of salvation.
Continued…
contiued…
cwix: I knew what the word Jihad meant when I used it. To me it represents a religious group that hates another religion and who openly try to destroy it. It represents emnity and contempt for others who have different beliefs. It represents a complete unwillingness to consider that one may not know everything he thinks he knows about the other religion. And to me it represents misrepresenting another religion in an attempt to achieve some form of victory. There is certainly a difference in degree, but not the underlying spirit of the campaign.
I am sorry to offend, but if we are to undertsand one another and our religions, we need more respect and generosity of spirit. Again, I appreciate your posts.
DJBrown,
“As far as the LDS leadership not teaching Christ- I don’t know what to say. I attend every general conference, read all their speaches and writings. The sacrifice of Christ is at the center of everything we believe and hope and everything they teach. To say we do not preach Christ is simply not honest. You might say we differ in some doctrine, but you cannot say we do not preach Christ as the only means of salvation.”
The issue is not the number of times you say “Christ” in a talk, it is the Christ you speak of. Presbyterians and Baptists differ on doctrines, but we agree on who Christ is. Mormonism teaches a different Christ, and mormons constantly duck this issue. When you invoke the name of Christ, but mean a finite, created being who is the spiritual brother of Satan, you are not preaching the same Christ with some minor differences in doctrine. That is a fundamental issue. The very idea of the atonement is radically different in mormonism from Biblical Christianity. What is simply not honest is to claim one thing when clearly what your church teaches is something different. That is why many mormon homes have no sign of the cross where victory was won over sin, but has lots of pictures of the First Presidency and temples. Your trust is in earthly leaders and world temples.
DJB: Just cause a word means one thing to you, doesn’t mean its actual definition is something markedly different. I don’t mean to make a mountain out of a molehill here, I just don’t think that a word that means a religious war, as in a violent killing type war, is appropriate here.
Mormons won’t end up in outer darkness for what they “do” which, by and large is live wholesome, upright lives. Mormons will end up in outer darkness for what they believe or more accurately, what they don’t believe. The Bible calls Satan the Father of Lies. He found a kindered spirit in Joseph Smith. He found one willing to reject the Cross of Christ, which is the symbol of salvation and eternal life. No amount of equivacating and rationalizing will take away the bottom line and hide the fact that in rejecting the Cross and substituting the pentagram, Mormons have chosen their god and their fate. The occult symbols on the Mormon “sacred underwear” keeps close to their hearts the god they serve.
Christians proudly display the Cross because as terrible as it is, it reminds us of the sacrifice God made in redeeming us. I will stick with the Cross and the God of the Bible. It’s is only through the means God has provided us that we have eternal life and not eternal outer darkness.
cwix: point taken. My intention was to demonstrate that people can convince themselves that they are doing “God’s work” in tearing down other people. Christ’s way is simply inconsistent with a sarcastic, aggressive attack on others beliefs. This is how many religious wars have started. There is no way around this point. I am sincerely sorry for offending you. Words cannot describe my gratitude for those sacrificing their time and lives to protect America.
My point is well demonstrated by falcon’s resonse though: there is no communicating with somebody who is convinced I am going to outer darkness. He somehow knows better than I what I believe. The ultimate out used time and again is the old conspiracy theory- the leaders of the church are misleading and covering up the truth. There is no way to communicate when this is the underlying conviction of where we stand as LDS.
Think of this one analogy: take the traditional historical christian doctrines. Imagine it is a view through a camera or telescope. I believe modern revelation has broadened the view available, adding context not available before.
You can disagree, and that is OK. It is not impossible for God to call and communicate through prophets- He has in the past. There is simply more background available through modern prophets.
Again about the “other” Jesus argument. You can rail against anything you don’t like about us, but that will never change our faith in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior of the world and the only means of salvation. The points you disagree with are arbitrary- in other words, you do not control the criteria for who is a christian. You do not stand at the door of the house of christendom, judging who enters. You have no more authority than I.
DJB,
I can tell the discussion is over. It happens when Mormons either haul-out their testimony or go for something out of the persecution complex. Mormon leaders do lie and deceive. And that’s not from me. It’s the exMos who feel had; that chant that refrain the loudest. How many examples do you need? Gordon B. Hinkley in response to the god progression question on Larry King, “I don’t know that we teach that.” Come on. Go all the way back to the Reed Smoot hearings circa 1905 when the Mormon prophet gave answers that caused a minor uproar back in Salt Lake City among the faithful. What about Joseph Smith denying polygamy? We don’t have enough room here. The problem isn’t me and my understanding of Mormonism. The problem is with Mormons and their inability to process the information and evidence that’s available regarding Mormonism despite having it right in front of their eyes. The fundamental principle in dealing with Mormons is to define terms. Mormons don’t like to define terms attempting to coop the vocabulary of evangelical Christianity in an attempt to deceive possible converts. The Jesus you claim, is not the Jesus of Nazareth. Your Jesus is “a god”, the offspring of former humans that became mother god and father god. Tell me you don’t believe that? That’s not Christianity. There is a standard Christianity that’s been around for 2,000 years. I would think that the folks who hold to the basic Christian beliefs, values and traditions handed down from the Church fathers should be able to evaluate and make a judgement as to what is and isn’t within the Christian belief system. Look, the Christians who post here are doing you a favor by clearly stating the differences between Christianity and Mormonism and giving you the opportunity to repent and claim eternal life through the blood of the Cross.
DJ said “I would bet anything that if truth be known, very few if any of the non-LDS people commenting here (who were never LDS) have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover.”
I actually have the BoM sitting right now on my desk on top of a book called Are Mormons Christians? by Stephen Robinson. Preach My Gospel is behind me on top of my bookshelf. The floor around my bookshelf is littered with LDS books such as A Different Jesus by Robert L. Millet as well as history books such as Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet by Dan Vogel next to a box of DVD’s entitled “The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon” that I share with people considering whether the BoM might be comparable to the Bible. This is not my only interest, but it has become a tremendous burden of mine lately as I recently moved to an area of southern Idaho that is populated with a huge percentage of Mormons and I am invested in trying to understand LDS beliefs. Thank you for your participation in this blog as it is helping me to understand better where you are coming from.
You see, I was raised in a Christian home by parents who were sold out to Jesus Christ and set an amazing example for me of what it means to be a Christ follower. I came to know Jesus Christ as my personal Savior at a very young age and grew up reading His Word daily and attending church and being involved in church and para-church ministries. I love Jesus, I believe His Word is true and has been preserved as He promised, that it is ‘living and active’, Holy-Spirit breathed, and life-changing to read and study. I studied for 4 years at a Bible college and obtained a master’s degree from a Christian university as well. As I have continued to grow and mature in my faith, my love for Jesus just keeps growing sweeter and I desire to obey Him in everything and live my entire life to please Him and to tell others about Him.
(cont. in next post)
(cont. from last post)
The Bible describes those who are mature in the faith, stating their senses are exercised “to discern both good and evil” (Heb. 5:14). IF the Bible is true, it warns us about those who come and preach another gospel – we are not to accept it even if someone claims an angel from heaven appeared to them (Gal. 1:6-9). So, for someone who was trained in the Bible, I sensed something evil immediately when I read the introduction to the BoM where Joseph Smith says an angel of light appeared to him and gave him this revelation for these latter days (see II Cor. 11:14 “for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light” and Matt. 24:4-26 where Jesus said “Take heed that no man deceive you…many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many…but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved, and THIS gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come…For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets…Behold, I have told you before…”).
So, yes, I will be honest – I have not yet read the BoM cover to cover and I’m not excited to. Quite honestly, the book gives me the creeps. I intend to read it through, but I have to resist an evil presence while I’m reading it. It’s similar for me to the time I was trying to understand New Age and reading their books where they are channeling what evil spirits have revealed to them about the end times.
My question is – IF the Bible is true in its warnings regarding those who would come in the latter days and try to deceive the world by pointing people to a false Christ, and IF the BoM is the product of one such false prophet warned about in Scripture that points people to a false Christ, who do you think might be better able to discern this? Someone well-studied in the Bible, or someone untrained in the Bible, who has been taught (and believes) the Bible cannot really be trusted?
Ralph said “you want us to show you proof of different things knowing that we can’t because our religion is based on faith”
Actually, I just want you to be honest with me that this is what your religion is based on – and this only. Thank you for being honest about this. I have an article sitting on my desk that was given to me a couple of weeks ago by an LDS missionary. It appears to be an Appendix to a book, but it does not say which book. It is titled “Challenges to the Book of Mormon” and it lists 34 reasons why I should believe the BoM is true and it cites zero sources. The reasons include mis-leading statements at best – they are actually out-and-out lies – such as indicating that the book has been examined by “the ablest scholars and experts” and that “after 146 years of extensive analysis, no claim or fact in the book is disproved, but all is vindicated” and that “thorough investigation, scientific evidence, and archaeological discoveries” have verified “even the minutest details of this history to be perfectly true, even to the types of roads they built”
We know this is perfectly false. LDS archaeologists and scholars are in the challenge right now of trying to provide ANY historical or archaeological basis for this book and they are attempting to explain why there are glaring contradictions in the archaeological record.
So, thank you for being honest. I hope you will continue to be honest with anyone who is considering joining your ranks and provide them the opportunity to make an “informed decision” about placing their faith in this book. They need to understand that none of the claims or facts in the book have been verified by history or archeology, but they will receive a feeling when they pray to the author of this book and they will need to cling to this feeling when confronted with contradictions in history, archeology, and the gospel of the Bible.
I after having “lurked” here for the past two weeks have come to a few conclusions. There are a few of you who truly embody the teachings of Christ, both Mormon and other Christians alike. There are also a few who have degraded to “badmouthing” the others.
Please remember:
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
– Gal 5:25-26
So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
– Matt 7:12
Even the Muslim holy book the Quran says this about Christians, and “people of the book.”
Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians –
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right –
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
– Sura 5:69
Can’t we just be friends and debate everything in a friendly manner, I don’t see any reason for proselytizing here. If your points are as strong as you want them to be, they will be self evident, forcing a religion on another is always, always a bad idea.
DJ Said
DJ, This works both ways, you guys are so closed minded, that despite all the evidence you refuse to see it or you reject it.
I have on topic on my blog I have posted about 4 times and even had it linked 2-3 times from this blog, as of yet NOT ONE Mormon has ever answered it, One tried but did not answer it, he gave info, but no real answers.
I also have one post that shows 3-4 LDS prophets who cannot agree and also contrdict each other. You can say what you want, but the biggest gripe from believers on this blog, is the LDS dodging hard questions.
If you want to try and answer my questions on my blog, feel free, if you refuse or remain silent like I never said this, then that will be a silent rebuke to you that I was correct. But LDS are very guilty of these types of this.
CWIX, Nice verses, but have you not read the book of Jude, or Gal 1:8-9 or How Jesus harshly rebuked the religious leaders. Can you give me chapter and verse where Jesus, Peter, Paul Etc allows false teaching to be spread.
I recall a demon Possesed girl speaking the TRUTH getting cast out. Or a certain Socerrer having blindness called down upon him, or Jesus rebuking his own, saying Satan get behind me. False teaching was not/is not embraced by the apostles and they are my examples for not embracing it either. Rick b
DJBrown said
DJ, I hate to tell you but you are so wrong, Their is really no talking with LDS when they are convinced they are correct despite the evidence.
Let me share a couple of examples.
On my blog I have some good topics that show great contrdictions, I have even posted some here that go unanswered, or I have given out my email or invited LDS to my blog to reply, to which they never do. This tells me the LDS are all talk but no substance.
If you want to take me up you can feel free to go to my blog, click on my profile and you will find my email. If you choose not to, then stop saying we as believers are closed minded.
the other evidence is this,
I was at a friends house who knew zero about LDS. I was sitting drinking my coffee not saying a word, my friend was asking honest very basic questions, like what do you believe, ETC.
Then my friend said I understand your not allowed to drink coffee, they said, your correct, the word of wisdom says were not allowed to drink coffee.
Now this was the first time I opened my mouth, but I said, whoa wait a minute, the WoW says Hot Drinks, not Coffee. You guys define Hot drinks as Coffee, so please be more accurate in what you say.
The LDS member got so mad at me he was claiming I have a spirit of contention and wanted to leave. How do you figure that was my fault for him not being total honest?
Another time, a friend said Do you believe Jesus is God (IE) The Trinity, The LDS member said yes, I corrected him and said, Nope thats not true. Now you can say I am making this up since I can only prove whats on my blog, but not these experinces. But many Christians have said experinces like these here on this blog with LDS being less than honest. So be careful before you try and tell us were close minded. RB
RB: You and I both know that there is nothing to that effect. (Although you might be able to twist something to it)
I would just like to know what gives anyone here the right to be rude or condensing to anyone else here.
Things do come to mind here… I can come up with plenty of verses that instruct us to respect other people. Shoot, Matt 22:39 comes to mind, Lev 19:18 repeats that message.
Although I think 1 Peter 3:15 comes to mind the strongest here. “But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”
I think a lot of people here should ask themselves if they are treating the others here with “gentleness and respect”
I’ve seen a lot of the WWJD wrist bands. I wonder if Jesus would approve of us berating other faiths. That doesn’t sound like the Jesus I believe in.
Arthur said:
“Mormonism teaches a different Christ, and mormons constantly duck this issue. When you invoke the name of Christ, but mean a finite, created being”
By ducking the issue, do you mean we (Mormons) never use the terms you choose?
We never claim belief in a finite, created being, because our Christ is NOT a finite, created being– but niether is Satan, or you and I, for that matter.
Abr 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 …for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them;
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, (Christ, if you continue reading)
According to cannonized LDS scripture (PoGP) we were all intelligences that were “organized” as spirit beings. No created beings there.
Just like Christ’s spirit took on flesh when he was born on the earth, his “intelligence” was orgainzed into a spirit when he became the first “born” child of God the Father. When you think about it, birth is just a detailed organization event of sorts.
We existed before we were born in the flesh as spirit children of God. We existed before we were “organized” as spirits as intelligence.
God just took Christ’s intelligence and gave him structure in heaven, just like he took his spirit and gave him flesh on earth.
To quote J Ruben Clark (an apostle) in his book “Behold The Lamb of God”:
The Latter-day Saints believe that these intelligences were co-eternal with God. As the Lord said to the Prophet in a revelation given at Kirtland in 1833, “I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn…. Ye were also in the beginning with the Father…. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth,
WAS NOT CREATED OR MADE, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE…
Behold, here is the agency of man…. For man is spirit.” (D & C 93:21, 23, 29, 31, 33.)
Cluff,
You know you’re asking for flack when you mention the PoGP. It’s those pesky documents that were found back in 1967 that showed that Joseph Smith got it wrong on the interpretation. It’s just a funeral text that is in every Egyptian’s funeral box just to state it briefly. “like unto God” kind of goes along with “a god” as stated by your Church…big difference between Jesus “is God” as stated by Christendom.
Nice job of spinning the creation of Jesus. I also like the quote by Ruben Clark. He’s an apostle. So was Bruce McConkie. I’d like to hear them discuss this quote by McConkie:
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 547)
That seems pretty simple to understand. Do you have any teenagers that have received sex education? Run that quote by them and ask them what it means. I bet they get it. I’ll ask my 15 year-old and we can compare notes…sound good? I know how I brought my kid into the world…the same way you did. The quote above said it’s the same way…big problem and contradictions amongst the apostles of the Lord at LDS headquarters. However, McConkie’s view does line up more with further doctrine when it says that “Heavenly Father is LITERALLY the father of Jesus”. That’s not hard to figure out.
Lastly, McConkie’s work is referenced all over the place in authorized publications of the Church. This work by Ruben Clark isn’t talked about much in all the books I’ve received from LDS Distribution. They sure love McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” though.
Berean,
There has only been less than one eighth of the papyri found that JS used to translate the PoGP/Book of Abraham from. He had 4 to 5 papyri and one was at least 8 metres long. So how can you be sure that the whole of the papyri he had was just an Egyptian funeral text? Yes, that is all we have available at the moment, but where is the rest and what was it about?
JessicaJoy,
I was open and honest on my mission to all investigating people. One borrowed 3 books from the local library after her first meeting with us. One was about religions developed in the pasty 200 years, one was from an apostate ex-member and one was from a member. She had no questions about the book by the member, but ahd many about the other 2. So we suspended the discussions and answered her questions truthfully, then went back to the discussions. She started by saying that she can see that we believe in those things but she couldn’t at that point in time. She did eventually join the church and one of the things that assisted was that my companion and I told the truth even though they were ‘damaging’ questions/answers at the time.
CWIX,
I hate to tell you this, but even the LDS act the way you claim the Christians do, and for the record I recall one or two LDS being banned from this blog for that reason, but no Christians.
Then speaking only for my self, no other Christians, Paul said Follow me as I follow Jesus, Paul and Jesus did not show respect to people that were bringing souls to hell or into false religions, and I do not respect that either. Thats not to say I cannot show them love and try to win lost souls.
The Bible tells us not to call these people brothers and the Bible tells us they are eneimes of the Cross of Christ and even some come from with in our own ranks to kill, Paul even told us this would happen. If you want to show respect to a wolf in sheeps clothing, then by all means do so.
Where do the wolves in sheeps clothing get the sheeps clothing? Do they buy it at a store? No they kill the sheep to get it. Rick b
The problem is that Mormonism depends on “revealed truth” confirmed by a “burning in the bosom”. To further complicate this, the leaders say and teach goofy off-the-wall things that then the apologists for the religion are left to spin, fudge, shade, rationalize and equivicate. When you read their comments, it’s apparent that these guys were really full of themselves, taking to heart the premise that God was speaking to and through them. It’s all such fun getting direct messages and revelation. It doesn’t even have to make sense. The more off-the-wall the better. Logic is Satan’s way of leading people away from the “faith”.
Ralph,
I think the problem is that Joseph probably didn’t use his magic rock therefore he didn’t have his full mojo working when he interpreted that section of the funeral text. You really amaze me. You have to be one of the best spin doctors the Mormons have. I often wonder if you are serious or if you’re just playing head games out here. It often sounds like a grown man giving explanations for the existance of Santa Claus.
CWIX, I think our Mormon friends are searching for validation by us of their religious beliefs. That’d be like validating a guy who’s passing counterfeit $20 dollar bills, but is doing it sincerely. It seems that you are offended by the straight forward, blunt approach many of us here take in defending the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you stick around, my guess is you will be offended on a daily basis if you’re the sensitive type. But do stick around and present in your own way. Just don’t spend your posts chiding us for how we go about our business. Moderator Sharon lets us know if someone steps over the line.
Rick B: I was approached by some LDS missionaries, and that is the reason I’m here. I Have studied the bible in the past, I also studied the Quran while I was deployed to Iraq. (I found it a good way to identify with not only the people we protected, but from the people we were fighting.) At this point Im studying the BoM. I see how there is throughout these books the message to treat others with some form of respect. You ever hear the saying you catch more flys with honey then with vinegar. By posting rudely, (This is to both LDS and Christians alike) You give someone who is looking for the truth a bad taste in his mouth about all religions.
Falcon: If they are doing it sincerely this is no reason to be rude. I am searching for truth with no punches held. I want to know what the LDS faith is about, and not from the figureheads, and propaganda spread by BOTH sides. Doesn’t mean there is any reason to be rude.
“Just don’t spend your posts chiding us for how we go about our business.”
Your business is by your belief Jesus business, and from what I know of him, He might go about this differently. Im sure Moderator Sharon does a wonderful job keeping the peace. If any of you wish to convince someone who wanders on to this site that yours is the truest form of Christianity then you might want to set your sights above having a moderator play mediator. Otherwise you scare all curious away and end up only with diehards that are more concerened with putting down the SINCERE beliefs of others. Again honey and vinegar.
To Everyone: If someone came up to you and asked about your religion, would you want to portray yourself as intolerant? Im here to find out about your religions, and frankly 90% of the time you all seem intolerant of each other. Im expecting a public stoning any day now.
Ohh BTW the name is cwix, but Cwix is acceptable. CWIX seems like your yelling my name.
cwix,
If you’re going to include, in your search for truth, the group of people who are the nicest, and most polite, you’re a great candidate for a cult. Mormons are terrific at love bombing. That is, making the prospect the center of attention, satisfying their emotional needs, being all smoochie. It’s the art of seduction. Forgive me for being suspicious, but your posts sound like they come right out of the Mormon playbook. Would it surprise you that Mormons show up on sites like this claiming to be seekers of truth and then BOOM….They suddenly have found Mormonism……”I believe the Book of Mormon is true, I believe Joseph Smith was god’s prophet, I believe the LDS church is god’s one true church. And it’s all because you Christians are nasty, mean confrontational and all around bad!” I would suggest if you are really a seeker that you get the Mormon doctrine and line it up next to Christian doctrine and see the difference. I would suggest you go out to “The Mormon Curtain” a website run by exMormons. They have a warehouse of information out there. I warn you though, they tend to the caustic side of things. Been burned you see.
JessicaJoy,
RALPH spun you a good yarn there about the person he gave all of the negative Mormon info to and the person still found truth, light and hapiness in the Mormon church. I’m sure that story is on page 27 of the “Myths and Legends of Mormon Missionaries” Volume 19. See, that story is to be generalized and believed that it is how the MMs operate. I have a story of MMs that were showing up at the local community swimming pool and “baptizing” teenagers there and entering their names on the rolls. There was a bunch of people who had no idea that they were “members” of the Mormons church. Man did that areas numbers look good though to the crunchers with the sharp pencils and adding machines back in Salt Lake City. Let’s generalize that story too.
Okay, time for a moderator to step in. I’d like to see this thread return to the topic (the Cross) and abandon the discussion about our individual approaches to error and heresy. cwix, it is always good to be reminded to be respectful; let’s leave it there.
Speaking of respect, I would also like to see us give each other the benefit of the doubt when it comes to personal experiences. Unless we have actual evidence that something is an urban legend (eg., we can provide the same story involving different people/place/time from another source), let’s discuss the elements of the story rather than its suspect validity.
Thanks.
Id like a chance to defend myself, so if we could move it to email, I have no objection to you getting my email from a moderator. I feel that was a personal attack on my credibility. I can supply proof of military service in Iraq, including official religious preference as Non-denominational Christian.
I would object strenuously to anyone who portrays themselves as one thing and is another. I hate liars, I strive not to lie.
On topic, I do find it strange that the LDS church kinda puts the cross to the way side, and I in what ive learned havent found any reason in official church doctrine. Can someone shed some light on the subject?
cwix, Email me to talk at rickshelli@hotmail.com
We will talk in private about these side issues. Rick b
Ps anyone is welcome to email me, LDS or other, Berean and falcon have written me, Falcon when will we get togther for pizza? Rick b
cwix -
I have not had time to read through every one of these comments, so I hope I’m not being repetitious, but maybe this will shed some light on the LDS perspective on the cross.
On lds.org under Gospel Library:
Cross – “The cross is used in many Christian churches as a symbol of the Savior’s death and resurrection and as a sincere expression of faith. As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, we also remember with reverence the suffering of the Savior. But because the Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith.”
Once again, right there on the internet for the world to read. We do not seek to hide our doctrine.
I’d like to honor Sharon’s request to get back on topic. I actually posted this on Saturday morning, but it was delayed being posted because of the links that I gave. I think we can respect that the moderators on here need time to check and verify what is being put out on the blog for accuracy so as to not undermine the credibility of the Mormonism Research Ministry which I highly respect and admire.
Do you want to know why the cross is not seen in LDS Churches? I invite you to scroll up and look at my post dated on the 16th and look at the photographs for evidence.
Feel free to Google what a pentagram is and what it means if you doubt this.
Berean is right on as usual!
It’s interesting to me that the Mormon temples continue to be built with pentagrams in spite of the controversy surrounding their use.
Apparently, some of the members of the temple committee for the 2002 Nauvoo Temple inquired of the designer as to whether the point of the stars could be rotated upwards instead. The designer assured them it was an easy fix with President Hinckley’s permission, but Hinckley decided to keep the pentagrams in spite of questions and concerns that Christians have raised regarding their use on Mormon temples.
For the whole story, see Bill McKeever’s article:
http://www.mrm.org/topics/mormon-temple/nauvoo-pentagrams
Thanks Sharon for the support but I just want to say in quick defence, Falcon, The lady lived in Kerava, Finland 16 years ago when I taught her – I will have to go home an look up her name if you want me to, that way you can verify the story. The ward she was baptised in was Kerava ward. She had 2 children and she was baptised 2 years after I taught her because her husband did not want her to be baptised. He divorced her 2 years later, leaving her able to be baptised. Is that evidence enough for you?
As for me being a ‘spin-doctor’ look at some historical facts on either FAIRLDS or FARM – yes I know you don’t like those sites but sometimes they do have the correct things. On one of their defences for the Book of Abraham they have quotes from JS and contemporaries as well as historical evidence showing JS had 4 or 5 papyri and one was the length of 2 rooms (about 8 metres). JS also describes the writing on one of the papyri. The pieces we have are from 2 papyri and represent less than one eighth of what JS had on his possession. None of the pieces have writing similar to that described by JS as the one he used to translate the Book of Abraham from. From what I see, most Mormon critic sites only say that we have found the papyrus JS used and it’s just Egyptian funeral text. If the writing does not match JS description and if it represents less than one eighth of what JS had and is from 2 out of a possible 4 – 5 papyri, putting aside your bias of the LDS church and JS, can you definitely say that all of the papyri were Egyptian funeral texts? Or could at least on of the papyri be something else? I am not saying that it is the Book of Abraham (although I do believe it was) but the facts leave room for reasonable doubt that there may have been something else don’t you think?
Berean,
Here is what one site has to say about the history of the pentagram, it has been used by many cultures and religions including the Christian religion. Here is the website for the full article, and after are quotes to note from the site -
http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa100102a.htm
A “point down” pentacle is nothing new- nor is it necessarily Satanic when it appears as such. Historical depictions of the pentagram were as likely to be points down as point up- a distinction between one or the other was rarely made by the ancients. Even today, one must not assume a point down pentagram is Satanic, as it is just likely to be Masonic, Wiccan, or simply upside-down.
In the minds of many, the pentagram is inextricably linked with black magick and Satan worship. The Satanic pentagram is a difficult symbol- it is the newest and least used, but at the same time the best known and most controversial. The Satanic pentacle is almost always presented upside down, or inverted, with a single point facing downward, and it is this pentacle that is presented incorrectly as ‘evil.’
The adoption of the pentacle as a Satanic emblem is quite recent, dating only to the latter half of the twentieth century.
In a dictionary I found in a bookshop about symbols it says many things about the pentagram including its use in Christianity. But one thing to note, it states that the point up is symbolic of white magic. So when Christians use the pentagram with point up are they indicating their use/belief in white magic? A symbol means what the user of it wants it to mean.
JessicaJoy,
As far as the reconstructed Nauvoo temple, it was constructed to be historically accurate, so why not leave it true to the past, especially taking the above quotes into consideration that at that time it did not symbolise a Satanic cult?
Cluff,
““Mormonism teaches a different Christ, and mormons constantly duck this issue. When you invoke the name of Christ, but mean a finite, created being”
By ducking the issue, do you mean we (Mormons) never use the terms you choose?”
No, I mean you never reveal to people unfront what you believe. Show me an interview with Hinckley where he doesn’t dodge and duck the question. He was a master at changing the subject. And they aren’t the terms I choose, they are the terms God chose in His Word.
Ralph, concerning the Papyri, isn’t it an odd coincidence that the images found in mormon scripture that have direct “translations” taken from them with specific meanings? Those facsimiles are hard to explain away when they match the papyri that have been found. Kind of implausible. Now it is a lot more plausible to say that Smith was trapped into translating another Egyptian document when confronted by one, and figured no one could contradict him anyway, so he spun a fanciful tale that became mormon scripture.
Look at the facsimiles still shown on the mormon webpage here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/abr/fac_1
Then compare them to what an actual egyptologist says here: http://www.mrm.org/topics/dc-and-pearl-great-price/the-book-abraham
Then try telling me Smith didn’t make the whole thing up.
Ralph,
I don’t know where you heard that Christians use a pentagram with point up for a symbol – I’m not familiar with that. From what I understand, that is a symbol used in Wicca. As this post was discussing, Christians prefer the cross for their symbol.
I’m not sure if you had a chance to read Bill McKeever’s article. He gives a very fair analysis of the history of the pentagram as a Satanic symbol. He provided some sources who take the position you do – that the pentagram has only recently come to be identified as a Satanic symbol. He also gave the sources on the other side of this issue who believe it has long been associated with Satanism.
I think this is a particular sticky point for LDS because Joseph Smith is the one who chose this symbol for the original temple and his involvement with occultic objects (seer stones, amulets, and magical parchments) is well-documented and not disputed.
Bill McKeever was very fair in stating that he was not aware of any evidence actually proving that Smith knowingly used a Satanic symbol. He did point out, however, that whatever the origins or whether or not Smith thought of the symbol as Satanic – the symbol is now directly linked with Satanism (since the founding of the Church of Satan in 1966) to the point that Wiccans have stopped using this symbol to prevent mis-understandings of their religion.
McKeever points out:
Just as any American who chooses to adorn his building with a swastika should expect to be criticized, so too should any religious group that chooses to utilize an inverted pentagram be second-guessed. If a Mormon wishes to belong to a church that purposely uses an emblem currently associated with evil, that is their choice. If a Mormon wishes to have their apologists defend such a symbol, that is their prerogative also. I personally don’t see this as [an] emblem to be proud of and to prove my point I don’t expect to see pentagram necklaces being sold next to CTR rings.
Trying to catch up is impossible. good to be back.
Sido,
I’ve said this before, but since it doesn’t seem to get through, I’lll try again.
Article of Faith #1. Nature of God. Christ is a seperate being. First Vision, seperate being with a body. That is about as upfront as you can get. All in the 1st discussion. You helped teach the missionary discussions, I’m sure you haven’t forgotten. What’s funny is that almost universally, the Christians I have had this discussion with believe this. Of course, the resurrection proves that. That was Christ major message to his apostles after the resurrection. That is what the Bible teaches. And if you are saying that you believe in a Christ without his body then so be it. But don’t try to put out a scare tactic that we are trying to hide something. It is all there from the first discussion.
By the way, I love Hinckley. Why does he dodge the questions? Because his message is “to Repent all ye ends of the earth and come unto Christ”. It is not whatever some journalists decides will excite his audience. He has been commissioned to teach and witness, not to respond. That is annoying, isn’t it? He understands that if the people will not repent and come unto Christ in faith (do His will) then they will never understand the doctrine. His is saying, if you want to know the true gospel you had better approach it according to the Lord’s terms.
The cross is simply another laundry list of issues that revolve around one issue. REVELATION. If the Lord wanted us to use the cross as a symbol in our daily worship, he would have told us. Maybe someday He will and we will change accordingly. We are grateful for the scriptures which tell us much about what took place there. Nevertheless, we understand (or at least trying to increase our understanding) of what took place there and will praise His name forever. (By the way, I submit the greatest insight about His sacrifice comes from the Lord’s own voice in Doctrine & Covenants 18.
cwix: christianity is, in my view, a strange animal. On a relational level, Jesus is something beyond tolerant: he is accepting and compassionate. He is able to do that and be that, because He never let’s go of what (and WHOM) is true. Truth and love, perfectly blended. Today’s version of ‘tolerance’ is not very ‘truth friendly’, and for that reason ‘being tolerant’ , the way those words are popularly understood, is not a high value to me, and does not represent Jesus to me: it’s an acceptance of others AT THE EXPENSE OF OBJECTIVE TRUTH. I know that truth,or our interpretation of that, can be a stick to hit people with, but anything good can be abused. I wish you all the best on your search for all your questions. Aside to DOF: trust whom you will, I will not trust anyones message on ‘repentance’ who cannot, or will not , give straight answers to straight (and honest) questions. And I have not forgotten about Jesus and the parables: I’ll allow Jesus a leeway I don’t give Hinckley and me. GERMIT PS to Ralp: I think it is no accident that the facts around the book of Abe are often sited by those LEAVING the LDS faith as something that just did not ring true (I know peoples reasons for believing anything are complicated, but this book of Abe thing has stood out to me, it’s an LDS apologetic nightmare)
I’ve just hopped on in my lunch break.
GRCluff said
“It is life and the celebration of life that is worthwhile”
Actually, I would partially agree. Evangelicals have a particular focus on the death of Christ (which is not a bad thing), but I suggest they also take a wider view of the whole story – the story of Israel, Jesus’ birth, life, resurrection and ascension and the present, continuing story of the New Jerusalem.
However, GR, I suggest you reconsider your aversion to the cross. This instrument of death is presented by the Bible as being the meeting place between humanity and God; it is the ‘real’ mercy seat of the old covenant. Without it, we cannot be crucified with Christ and so become a new creation in his ressurection (Romans 6:1-10).
Here’s a riddle for you; Why does John write “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” (Rev 21:22)? John sees that Jesus fulfilled, or completed, all of the functions of the old temple, including the system of sacrifice and atonement. The cross is integral to this picture and without it there would be no meeting place with God, regardless of how you describe the processes of incarnation, death, sacrifice, resurrection, ascension, affirmation and initiation.
Here’s another question; if Jesus is the ‘true’ temple, then what business have LDS in building their temples all over the place? What do we need them for? Was John wrong?
Staying on topic and also following my past post in which others have been discussing the pentagram as displayed on LDS buildings, I would like to offer as further evidence the Temple of Set and it’s trademark logo. There is much I could say about the Temple of Set. First, it’s extremely dangerous when it comes to outright occultic practices and the worship of Satan. Michael Aquino, the founder, established this occultic sect when he left the Church of Satan in the 1970’s. Most people think that the Church of Satan worships Satan – they don’t. They believe Satan is just symbolic and the real worship is of self. The Temple of Set is very aggressive in it’s worship of the pagan god Set who is the god of chaos. This is Lucifer to them. With so many occultic practices brandishing the pentagram as their logo I would like to think that the LDS Church would want to distance itself from it. However they don’t. Compare the logo of the Temple of Set to the logo on the picture of the LDS Museum of Church History and Art…come to your own conclusions if they are a match. While the Mormons don’t worship Set, they are dabbling in symbolism that has strong occultic ties – very dangerous.
I have never gone past the introduction page to the Temple of Set for spiritual reasons so please use discretion and discernment. I merely offer proof of its logo to make my point.
http://www.xeper.org/
You can read more about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set
The cross of Christ is at odds with symbols like these. There is no fellowship with light with darkness. Demonic forces that embrace symbols of the pentagram are repulsed by the sight of the cross especially the crucifix. There is power in the cross because of what Christ did for us there and the demons know it thus they hate it. Their fate was forever sealed when Jesus paid our sin debt there – not in the Garden of Gethsemane.
This is going to be a loooong post because there are several different topics to address here.
Ralph said : “None of the pieces have writing similar to that described by JS as the one he used to translate the Book of Abraham from.” Not true. Apparently you haven’t heard of JS Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar or the Kirtland Egyptian Papers. From the Mormon Curtain website: “one of the sections of papyrus was clearly the Egyptian writing from which Smith claimed to “translate” the Book of Abraham. There were still handwritten copies of the original translation work which showed the individual Egyptian figures down the left margin of a page, with the English translation right next to it. The handwriting on these copies was by Smith’s regular scribes who helped him in his work. These Egyptian figures are clearly seen in a section of one of the recovered papyrus sections, all in exactly the same order that they appear on the handwritten “translation” pages.” The writing on at least one scroll does match not only what JS describes, but wrote down. And as Arthur pointed out, anyone slightly familiar with Egyptology can tell you that the facsimiles do not represent was JS said they do.
DOF said: “If the Lord wanted us to use the cross as a symbol in our daily worship, he would have told us.” Did you miss all the scriptures that say to look to the cross? Gal 6:14 specifically comes to mind.
I’ll address the pentagram issues in my next post…
(cont’d)
Ralph quoted: “The adoption of the pentacle as a Satanic emblem is quite recent, dating only to the latter half of the twentieth century.
The inverted pentagram was adopted by the Church of Satan in the 1960’s, but it’s affiliation with evil goes back much farther. In the early centuries A.D. the upright pentagram was used by the Christians as it could represent the 5 wounds of Christ and could be drawn in one continuous movement, representing Alpha and Omega without end. But “During the burning times when the Christian church burned alive or hung hundreds of thousands of innocent people, the meaning of the pentagram changed. It began to symbolize a goat’s head or the devil in the form of Baphomet. ‘The folk-symbol of security – for the first time in history – was equated with evil and was called the Witch’s Foot.’ http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_pent.htm
It was around the 1830’s the inverted pentagram began to commonly be associated with occultism, of which JS was so fond. So for him to “receive revelation that this symbol was to be used on all temples” doesn’t surprise me, and shows me to whom the LDS church really belongs.
By the way, “one must not assume a point down pentagram is Satanic, as it is just likely to be Masonic,(or) Wiccan” -Wiccans very rarely use the inverted pentagram because of its association with Satanism; they almost exclusively use the upright pentagram. (This is from personal knowledge as I was pagan/Wiccan for 10 years.)
JessicaJoy,
If you google “pentagram Christianity” you will find many references to the early use of the pentagram in Christianity. The site I referenced last post says it, Wikipedia has a section on Christianity using the pentagram as a symbol. Since we are not allowed to use too many links I will give this one and a quote from it underneath -
http://www.angelfire.com/id/robpurvis/pentagram.html
”The Pentagram As A Christian Symbol
Up until medieval times, the five points of the pentagram represented the five wounds of Christ on the Cross. It was a symbol of Christ the Saviour. This is in stark contrast to today where the pentagram is criticized by modern Fundamentalist Christians, as being a symbol of evil.
The church eventually chose the cross as a more significant symbol for Christianity, and the use of the pentagram as a Christian symbol gradually ceased.”
So according to this site the pentagram was the first or main symbol used by the early Christians.
Another interesting thing about the pentagram is that it has a part in Jewish history and belief. The upside-down pentagram is the Jerusalem seal (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram.html).
I have read Bill McKeever’s article about the pentagram and he is reasonably fair about it. He also states that it has been used in Christianity in the past. Most of the sites I have looked at about it also support a long relationship with magic, but not with Satanism. It was the goat’s head that was drawn in the shape of a pentagram (with no pentagram around it) that was the early symbol according to the website I referenced in the previous post. It also gives a picture of it.
Yes, I can see why people object to it being used but as I said earlier – a symbol means what the person using wants it to mean. It’s the same with words.
Andrea,
If you have a problem with the quote I gave, contact the site as its their words not mine.
In regards to the Cross, just go to Philippians 3:18,19. I believe that will explain why the mormans don’t use the cross as a symbol. There is one true symbol that has been in the Christian Church throughout its exsistance, that is the Cross.