I just read Odds Are, You’re Going to be Exalted by LDS author Alonzo L. Gaskill (2008, Deseret Book). In this slim volume Mr. Gaskill seeks to reassure Latter-day Saints that even though they are not actually doing “all [they] can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), they can still expect to be exalted in the celestial kingdom. The book promises to provide readers “evidence that the [LDS] plan of salvation works.”
Mr. Gaskill lays odds that “you’re going to be exalted” because almost everybody will be. He writes,
“…literally billions of our Father in Heaven’s children have already been guaranteed exaltation in the celestial kingdom. Those who die before the age of eight, individuals with mental handicaps that limit their accountability, translated beings from various dispensations, many of the billions to be born during the Millennium, and a significant percentage of those who receive the gospel in the spirit world—all these and more, according to what has been revealed, will be exalted through the great Plan of a merciful and loving Father in Heaven.” (41)
The rest of Heavenly Father’s children, Mr. Gaskill writes, will be exalted by obedience to laws and ordinances, the same laws Heavenly Father successfully obeyed as He completed His “conquest over sin,” and the same ordinances He participated in to achieve His exaltation (7-8). Indeed,
“The laws and ordinances by which men and women are exalted in the celestial kingdom of our God are eternal and do not change—and because they are eternal, they predate even God.” (8)
So all one must do to be exalted in the celestial kingdom is live as God the Father lived when He was mortal: achieve conquest over sin, keep the commandments, and be faithful to temple and baptismal covenants. This is but another way of describing one’s worthiness to have the presence and influence of the Holy Spirit (see LDS Apostle Dallin H. Oaks, “The Aaronic Priesthood and the Sacrament,” Ensign, 11/1998, 38). Mr. Gaskill explains,
“…the doctrine of sanctification is evidence of how very simple it is to ensure our exaltation. If one but keeps the Spirit, he or she will be clean and therefore saved! It is that simple!” (55; emphasis retained from the original)
Though Mr. Gaskill makes a valiant effort to give his readers some sort of assurance regarding their forgiveness of sins and future exaltation, he can’t quite break free of the LDS teaching that takes away that assurance: the necessity of personally achieving “conquest over sin,” “successfully obey[ing]” the commandments, and “be[ing] faithful to the covenants we make with the Lord.”
Mr. Gaskill also presents an opposite message (“desire” is the operative and only personal requirement, 6), yet he cannot escape the long-taught LDS imperatives of merit and personal worthiness (87, 43). Therefore, though Mr. Gaskill thinks the odds for forgiveness of sins and exaltation in the presence of God are in any Latter-day Saint’s favor, it’s clear the whole thing is still a gamble.
God said in His Word that we can know our eternal future beyond a shadow of a doubt. Through the apostle John God said,
“…God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:11-13)
There’s no roulette wheel here that might pay off if you’ve chosen the right color and number. Instead, God offers confidence, assurance, and the peace that passes all understanding. My money is on God’s Son.
—
2 Corinthians 3:4-5
Romans 8:1
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
Philippians 4:7
I haven’t read this book, but I can make a safe assumption that you left out his comments on “God’s Son”. You know as well as I know that the LDS faith includes an integral belief that we can’t achieve exaltation without the atonement of Jesus Christ (God’s Son). I’m not shy to say that we also believe that we must be good people to also acheive exaltation. There’s no reason why we would be given commandments (you do believe in commandments… don’t you?) if all God wanted us to say “I believe” on our death bed. Unfortunately, God’s grace extends to all, BUT… BUT, it is not sufficient for those who don’t do their part. You say he cannot escape the long taught imperatives (principles) of personal worthiness and merit. I don’t believe he was trying to escape anything. My personal belief is that the majority of LDS people who faithfully follow the teachings of Christ, as shown in the scriptures and as revealed through his prophets, are still worried that they aren’t doing enough to be saved. I’m sure this book was written to give them some reassurance.
FInally, if you all believe that all we have to do is say “I believe” on our death bed, or call for Christ on our death bed, then we’re all okay anyways… At least, I think we all say “I believe”… right? Why then do you propose to oppose our faith? It seems counter intuitive that you would attack a church that tries to teach its participants to “do all they can do” to be good people and follow christ. It seems counter-intuitive that you would attack a church that tries to teach its participants to believe in Christ, despite your belief that all we need to do is… well… believe in Christ.
Interesting thoughts… I’m out!
reggie…the broken record plays again but here it goes…the reason we oppose your faith is because it claims to restore beliefs and practices which NEVER existed prior to Joseph Smith coming up with them.
Show me a Jew who believes God has a body of flesh and bone. Show me a Jew who believes he can become another God. Show me anything in the history of the Christian movement where someone taught that God had a body.
So we continually ask…what can you show us from the Bible or the history of Christianity that we don’t believe? He didn’t restore anything…he copied a bit of this and that (Bible, Freemasonry, etc) and invented something that never existed before.
LDSSTITANIC,
Do you believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected to a body of flesh and bones and thus returned to life?
Do you believe this was a temporary rather than permanent thing? If so can you provide scriptures to support your belief that Jesus no longer has a body of flesh and bones and therefore is no longer living?
LDSTIT- Your response did not have much to do with my post. My argument is that since we say “I believe”, won’t we all be saved? That’s what you believe, right?
I’ve heard your broken record on other threads, and in other forums, so a response would be futile. WE DON’T ONLY BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE. So anything i show you in the Bible that you don’t believe, you’ll claim is a bad interpretation… despite it being taken directly from the Bible. That’s how it’s happened on different threads, and that’s how it will happen on this thread.
To refute/understand your beliefs a little better. Don’t you believe that Christ IS God? Didn’t Christ have a body? Didn’t he resurrect and his apostles touched his body? So according to your beliefs, doesn’t Christ/God/Holy Spirit, since it’s all the same person, have a body? And if not, did Christ/God/Holy Spirit shed his body again after he left his apostles? I’m sure it talks about those ideas in the Bible… are my interpretations incorrect?
By the way, I know a Jew who believes that God has a body of flesh and bone, but since he’s so entrenched in his religion/culture/family, he still participates in the Jewish faith. I’d be happy to introduce you to him. Also, I could take you back to the counsel in Nicea when the idea of God was defined/re-defined by a group of men. And I will say this, IF… and I know it’s a big IF for you, but IF Joseph Smith really did see what he saw, and was visited by who he said he was visited by, then it’s one of the most important things that has ever happened on this earth. IF NOT, then my beliefs are flawed, and I would be humble enough to admit it. I guess none of us were there and none of us “know” if what he said was true. BUT… I don’t want to be one of those to who Christ repremands, “Oh ye of little faith”.
Please bring this discussion onto the issues raised in the above blog article: assurance of exaltation, the requirements for forgiveness/exaltation, the LDS laws and ordinances, the Christian view of salvation, assurance of salvation, etc. There’s plenty to discuss here; whether God has a body of flesh and bone is clearly off topic. Thanks.
GB…yes but it is a “glorified” body which I also hope to one day receive when I am resurrected. Please show me a reference where the Eternal Father has a body of flesh and bones…
reggie…you are correct in saying it is a very big IF…I can’t trust a 14 year old kid who was arrested for “treasure-digging” with a peepstone…I do have enough faith that the Scriptures have been preserved and that Jesus is my Savior.
To all…I do not claim to be able to understand God. I wouldn’t worship a God who I could figure out and claim to understand completely. What I know from the Bible is that there is ONLY one God. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father. The Spirit lives inside me. Clearly there are three personages who have some measure of independence. But God in the OT and Jesus in the NT both confessed that there was only one God. Even my buddy Zeezrom in Alma chapter 11 asked if there was more than one God and Amulek told him no.
reggiewoodsyall, I did not mean to give the impression that Mr. Gaskill suggests one can achieve exaltation without Christ. Christ is certainly part of his equation. But the book’s focus is on what is required from each individual (in addition to what Christ has done) in order to be forgiven and be exalted. Thanks for the question giving me the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding.
Reggie,
I am glad you admitted that you feel “most LDS are afraid if they aren’t doing enough to receive God’s grace.”
The reason that is even an issue for LDS, I think, is that the leadership has taught things to make LDS lay members feel that way. Mr. Kimball and his book on forgiveness comes to mind.
What, as a Christian, should be our focus? A lifetime of trying to “live the law” in order to present yourself worthy of God’s grace?
Or should it simply be Jesus Christ himself, and the life he gave, so that we may inherit eternal life?
I didn’t say main, or seconday focus. Why? Because there should be none. There is only one pedestal and our love and devotion to Jesus Christ/God should take up all of it.
It’s not bad that LDS try their hardest (and in my opinion exceed traditional Christians) to be a good person and keep the commandments.
Think of eternal life with God as one side of a cliff, and you are on the other side. You can try and jump across by your own merits but you will fall straight to hell. Jesus Christ isn’t simply half a bridge that only stretches halfway across the cliff so you have to make jump across and “hopefully” you’re a good enough athlete to do so.
The truth is that Jesus Christ is the complete bridge. Stretching all the way across to God. His death for our sins was the finishing nail on that bridge.
To me, the LDS don’t realize that Jesus is the complete bridge, but almost more importantly, is that NO ONE is an athelete, NO ONE is capable of making a far enough jump. The truth is that we are all crippled (everyone a sinner, perfection unatainable by our own merits, but 100% reliable upon the perfection of our Lord and Savior), and the very best we can do is fall to our knees on that bridge and trust – BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is THE WAY, the truth, and the life.
(continued..)
Part 2
So why keep commandments? Why be good? Because sin leads to more sin, which leads to disbelief in the merits of our Savior. But obedience and love (being the greatest commandment of all) keeps you on track. Not only does it help you stay on track, but the fulfillment and lifes blessings of obedience will cause others to take notice. They will want to know what you have that they dont, and what you have is an assurance and love of God.
Amen.
Reggiewoods said: “FInally, if you all believe that all we have to do is say “I believe” on our death bed, or call for Christ on our death bed, then we’re all okay anyways…”
If we believed you were “all okay anyways” we would not care. Christians believe self-righteousnous (and following a “church”) can not get you to heaven.
#1) Mormonism teaches another Jesus whose saving power is not sufficient:
2 Cor. 11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted– you may well put up with it. (you will have to endure it, or you wear it beautifully, and some do).”
Galatians 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
#2) Mormons do not believe that Jesus is equal to almighty God (the “I AM”). The bible says if you do not believe that Jesus is the “I AM” you will die in your sins:
Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM he, ye shall die in your sins.”
#3) You do not believe that simply repenting and believing in Christ is “enough” for salvation.
How would you explain the story of the good theif on the cross that explained he deserved his punishment, and Jesus had done nothing wrong. He turned to Jesus and said, “Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” and Jesus said, “…Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
The theif didn’t have any time to do “works” to earn his salvation. He simply repented and trusted in the “Lord” Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is LORD. AMEN.
A quote on this topic from Hugh B. Brown from his book “Abundant Life”:
“We believe that the doctrine of death-bed repentance or instantaneous salvation is unscriptural, unreasonable, and unjust.
Salvation, like education, is an ongoing process, a lifetime endeavor, an eternal quest. We believe in the efficacy of the atonement of Christ, that He did for us what we could not do for ourselves; that through His atoning blood all men will be raised from the dead, but our individual exaltation will, through the atonement of Christ, be achieved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. A man cannot be saved in his sins. He may be saved from them.”
This in a nutshell describes the relationship between the concept of exaltation and the atonement of Christ in Mormon theology.
While this article attempts to seperate anything Christ did for us from our quest for exaltation, every legitimate quote from Mormon authorities continues to place Christ back in the mix.
The real difference between Mormon and Christian belief structures is the requirement for repentance. Like Elder Brown said, we will be saved FROM our sins not IN our sins?
Tell me this. Is repentance optional? Say no them Mormons and Christians are the same. Say yes and you will continue the divide. The only problem you will have then is the one that Mormons will be right. You will NOT be saved IN your sins.
Before we conclude that Mormons skip the blessing of “The Son” entirely in their quest for exaltation, lets consider another quote on the subject, to put the matter in context:
Stephen Robinson, Believing Christ:
Faith is the first principle of the gospel, but this does not mean just believing the historical claims of the gospel. Do you believe that the Church is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet, and that the gospel has been restored in the latter days? Good, but that’s not enough. The first Article of Faith specifies that we must have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We often think that having faith in Christ means believing in his identity as the Son of God and the Savior of the world. But believing in Jesus’ identity as the Christ is only the first half of it. The other half is believing in his ability, in his power to cleanse and to save—to make unworthy sons and daughters worthy.
Now, how is that UNLIKE the belief that mainstream Christainity holds?
LDSSTITANIC: yes but it is a “glorified” body which I also hope to one day receive when I am resurrected.
GB: So you agree that Jesus has a glorified body of flesh and bones.
This leaves this question
Do you believe this is a temporary or permanent thing?
This also raises other questions,
Do you believe that Jesus is a separate and distinct being from the Father, yet exalted?
Jesus has a glorified body of flesh and bones and the Bible says (Heb 1:3)(Jesus) being the brightness of (God, the Father’s) glory, and the express image of (God, the Father’s) person, . . . “, isn’t this a very clear indication that God, the Father also has a glorified body of flesh and bones?
An analogy: we have an enormous mountain to climb in order to live with our Heavenly Father again-we’ll call it Mount Sin. None are strong enough to climb it alone. No matter how good I am or how much I “do all that I can do,” I will never get over it by myself. The scriptures are clear that works don’t save us and we cannot save ourselves. However we are blessed, Christ is at the base sitting on the front seat of a tandem bike (cheesy but stay with me). He’s offering to take us over the mountain but He’s asking us to do a few things to demonstrate our gratitude, faith and commitment to Him. For one, we obviously need to trust Him enough to sit on the bike (Faith and baptism.) Once we get on the bike, he starts peddling and asks us to peddle with him. He doesn’t need our help to get us over “Mount Sin,” but He likes to see our commitment to Him (faith with works). We all have different situations so of each of us he expects us to peddle a different amount. As long as he sees we are committed to him to His satisfaction, He will keep on peddling and take to the top. We can’t do it our self. We don’t peddle halfway and he takes us the rest. Instead, He takes us the whole way as long as he can see we are peddling with him to his satisfaction. You will sometimes hear confused Mormons give analogies that put too much emphasis on our own works and not on Christ’s grace. But true LDS doctrine is closer to this analogy. To my non-Mormon friends, how does that view of grace differ from your own? Do you believe once we sit on the bike, there is nothing He asks us to do? Perhaps some of you do, but most evangelicals I know really don’t believe that. We often fight about grace and works but we actually believe the same thing even though some Mormons pay too much attention to our own peddling and some evangelicals don’t pay enough. We have more in common than both sides often realize. Gaskill’s book is a rebuke to the Mormon’s who don’t pay enough attention to the front seat.
To Cluff and others; welcome back from sunny, temperate Estes Park, I would have loved to stay and plant a church or something…maybe someday. Sorry I missed out on the evidence of the BoM thread: thank you to FoF esp. for the references and sources, I appreciate your work and will look into that, thanks for being specific in citations, that saves everyone time.
Cluff, you’ve asked a good question that we’ve pretty much beaten to death, but I’ll give it a quick reprise. THe LDS salvation indeed trusts in Christ’s work and atonement for salvation AND THEN ADDS OBEDIENCE TO THE RECIPE, EVEN IN SMALL PART, AS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. THe orthodox position says “salvation apart from works other than just trusting/clinging/believing and if that is genuine, the works are sure to follow.” This probably looks like nit picking to an outsider (someone who doesn’t even think about scriptural things), but I would hold that the differences are important, even vital. Reread the thread on salvation a month or so ago, the orthodox position was stated in about 10 diff.ways, and skillfully, as I recall.
To recap: Christ is not ‘in the mix’ when it comes to atonement: HE IS THE WHOLE THING, and as far as I can tell, that does NOT describe LDS atonement, I welcome comments otherwise.
welcome back one and all
PS: found out days ago that my only grand daughter is going to an LDS church, so that is reason for rejoicing for some, and sober reflection for me and others. Blessings on all who cling to blood bought salvation.
GERMIT
Cluff,
“A quote on this topic from Hugh B. Brown from his book “Abundant Life”: “We believe that the doctrine of death-bed repentance or instantaneous salvation is unscriptural, unreasonable, and unjust.
Salvation, like education, is an ongoing process, a lifetime endeavor, an eternal quest.”
Honest, but incorrect.
One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:39-43)
No mormon baptism for this thief, since we don’t know his name he couldn’t even be baptized vicariously. No good works evident. Nothing but the confession of Christ as Lord and he was saved. A newly born again Christian is as saved as a Christian for 80 years. He was with Christ in paradise that day (and before you say it, his is not speaking of the spirit paradise/prison nonsense) I love that thief because he confounds all these faith works faiths, which is why his words are recorded in the first place in my humble opinion, to show the lie of our righteousness in salvation. Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
So Cluff, there is still hope for you. You can repent of your sins and turn to Christ and be saved. You won’t get to be a god but you will be with Christ, and that is more than good enough.
Arthur, the response to the thied on the cross will be that paradise is not heaven. This is the out they have on that line of reasoning. I agree with your conclusion, but I know that is exactly what they will say.
It is interesting that most LDS are still unsure they have worked enough to warrent the CK. This indicates to me what I have said before of the problem of relying on works: no matter how much you say you believe, you still put much faith in the actual works.
Contrat this with the idea of faith alone, which really puts all the emphasis on Christ, and the works don’t mean a thing.
The simple truth, and I think both sides will agree with this, is that if we love Christ, we will do our best to follow his example. Those who are true believers will run the race with endurance, as Hebrews describes (12:1-3).
However, in looking at the results I described above– where are our eyes focused, the works or on Christ– have huge ramifications to where our hearts are.
Yes, the Bible speaks of working, but it also talks about loving and accepting Christ. The two do go together, but if a large segment of a population is concerned they have not worked enough, that tells me that they are more concerned about the works than about complete faith in the one who died for us, and offers the way of salvation, no matter if by works or by faith.
Ultimately, it is because that bottom line must exist, no matter which position you take, that I feel that it is by faith alone that gets us to heaven to be forever with our Savior. No matter how much we work or strive, though we ought to work, this work or striving does not earn us a single thing to bring us closer to Christ.
And think of this: if Christ loved us enough to die the death he died, for you and I, why would he put strings to it? That notion doesn’t make sense to me.
Shouldn’t we always be asking how hard we are peddling (See my post earlier) so we can serve Christ better? That’s not questioning the Saviors role in the atonement its just demonstrating our commitment to him. It says in Philippians 2:12 12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” It can be done in a way that focuses on the peddler and wanting to serve Him and not trying to do it ourselves.
Well, Thinker, yes, but no.
We should always strive to do all we can, but look at the result of focusing on the actions. You end up with questions like:
Am I doing enough? (notice the “I”.)
Is Christ going approve of what “I” have done?
Can “I” do more?
What else can “I” do?
And so on down the line. It is fair to question what the focus is in such questions, right?
So, where is the focus, then? It appears to be on the “I”. I know you can stipulate that you do these things because of a full love of Christ, and that he is the only reason you do them. However, it is still you doing them, even if it is for Christ.
What our proposition is is that we focus on Christ and Christ alone. Its not what we do for him, but what we allow him to do in us. In other words, we look to him and submit to him, and allow him to work in us. This will naturally flow to us do as Christ did and would do.
This can only happen when we accept Christ and his gift for us, and realize that there is nothing we can do to become worthy outside of full submission to him.
The difference is perhaps subtle, but important. Do you see the distinction?
I think it would be wise to do as that verse you quoted asks us to do. And as you said, we should be asking ourselves continuously throughout our Christian walk a few questions –
Are we devoting our time and lives to Chris for His Glory?
Are we taking full advantage of the blessings/talents he has given us to give back to God? (serving your fellow men is serving your God. Raising a family with God being another, and so forth.)
Are we trying to abstain from sin?
Are we exemplifying a behavior that the Bible commands us to do?
These are all things that the apostles strived to do.
These are all very good things, but being perfect at them wont make you an athlete (see my prior post). These are all things that are living examples of your faith in Christ. Not only are they examples, but they cause you to Love God more. Just as taking your wife out on dates and courting her much like you did when you were dating. It not only pleases her, but it will cause you to love her more as well. It will also deepen your faith, and your trust in God.
Someone who becomes Christian will, to the human eye, start to show changes in the way they live their lives. They receive salvation and grace FIRST, and then comes the “working out your salvation”.
Imagine if the thief on the cross had survived that day. Do you think he would have lived the same life after recognizing Christ for who He is, and what he was doing? Just ponder that. He received the assurance of salvation through Gods grace by FAITH! On the cross, he had no time to do good works or receive endowments, get married to a faithful Mormon woman, get baptized, receive the aaronic and melchezidek priesthoods, etc..
Jesus Christ had saved him that day. I truly believe God knew that grace/works would be a big question in the faith today, and how wonderful that he preserved the story of the thief on the cross to show us that faith is indeed all that is needed for the Grace of God.
To all: this was not a major part of the article, but in rereading it, the part about eternal principles PRE-DATING GOD HIMSELF stood out to me. How bizarre. This seems to be some kind of gnosticism hybrid where an idea, or collection of ideas or ‘laws’ actually pre-date the law giver or idea maker. Unless the idea is that there is a ‘god behind the god’. I welcome any kind of LDS explanation for this: it reminds me of the ‘intelligence is forever’ theme that has popped up here and there on MC. Comments ??
to THINKER: the trip up the mountain would be so much more enjoyable if we didn’t always have to wonder if our peddling efforts were ‘enough’ ornot. You want your own kids to do their very best, but when they don’t, do you love them any less? Is your love greater than the love of the Heavenly Father’s ? KNOWING that we are HIS children sets us free to peddle with pleasure, not self appraisal and judgment. Hope that helps. GERMIT
OK folks just the falcon’s continual reminder that we’re dealing with a different religion here in Mormonism. It’s not like, and has nothing in common with historical Biblical Christianity. So we can’t even address this topic from a Christian perspective. It gets back to that all important foundational doctrine of God. Mormons believe if they work their secret Mojo in the temple enough and live a perfect life they can morph into a god after death. Good luck! I’m sticking with the one God of the Bible and His promise of eternal life based on faith in what was accomplished on the Cross by Jesus. So while Mormons are doing, doing, doing in the hope of exhaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, I’ll continue believing in what Jesus did for me and understand that any doing I do has nothing to do with my salvation but has everything to do with transforming my character to be Christ like in behavior, not to become a god in essence. The Mormon god is way too small anyway.
Thinker,
Reading on, Philippians 2:13 says “for it is God who is at work in you”
This reinforces the ev position that our works come from God, from obedience to Him, as a result of the grace we have received, and these works are not of ourselves. It appears that Mormons do works to be obedient, but in truth we have works because of our obedience.
Bottom line, what is necessary for salvation? A changed heart & mind, and faith in Christ.
If we truly have faith in Christ, we have a changed heart. If we have a changed heart, we will be obedient to God. If we are obedient to God, we will have works (that come from God) that show our faith.
I ran across a post from DJBrown a while back that I thought explained this topic well:
“Anybody see the movie “The Ultimate Gift?” … In it is a great story that mirrors our belief on this topic. A billionaire oil tycoon is dying and does not trust his greedy sons and daughters with his fortune and businesses. He has a grandson who has fallen from the family and is living a riotous lifestyle. The grandfather knows the grandson has the potential to be a great person and one he could possibly trust with his fortunes. He sets up a list of 10 things the young man must do in order to receive “the ultimate gift.” These include service to others, learning to work hard on a ranch, giving up all his earthly possession, etc. Basically, he is tortured through a series of lessons that in the end make him a better person.
This young man initially believes he will receive a million dollars or something equivalent. Through his experiences completing his grandfather’s list of requirements, he eventually forgets about himself and starts loving other people. Then, in the end he receives the “ultimate gift”-being an honest, loving, hard-working person, and the one upon which his grandfather bestows his entire fortune (tens of billions of dollars).
Back to the issue- the grandson does not earn the fortune in any respect. It is given to him. But he had to do certain things before receiving it. Very much like our belief on faith and works. I am not saying we have a list of things to check off. We must follow Christ and become what he wants us to become THROUGH HIS ATONEMENT. His grace lifts and helps us through this process and of course in giving us “the gift.” Hope this helps for those of you genuinely interested in knowing what we believe.”
Long quote, but spot on as far as faith/works.
falcon: what is your background with the LDS church? Your sarcasm and venom toward the church really seem to permeate most of your posts. Honest question.
Regarding the “the gift” – which is funny you mention because my boss has 100’s of these he gives out to clients.
It all comes to the “which came first, the chicken or the egg” question.
If you have to physically do anything, even one thing to receive something, then it is not a gift. I don’t know if you agree with the Bible when it says the grace of God is given freely, as a gift, but thats how Christians view grace.
In the book you mention, the young man is doing those things to earn what his grandfather promised him, a paycheck. That is his motivation. We all know that Mormonism has general salvation, given to anyone who isn’t just pure evil or an apostate, but a “celestial paycheck” is whats promised to you by the Mormon god if you do enough good works to be worthy of Gods grace.
So there it is. In Mormonism, one does works to receive something they haven’t yet been given – a celestial paycheck.
In Christianity, one does works because of something they have already been given by faith in Christ – Salvation.
Which sounds more like a gift (free, unearned token of love)? Something you have to work for? Or something that was just given to you because that other person, or being, loves you more than you can possibly fathom?
More importantly, which gives more glory to God?
Either way, you still become a better person, and I think the latter is better because you don’t start off with a “paycheck” in mind or fear of not doing enough and getting “fired.”
The paycheck and/or fear of termination taints the finished work that Jesus Christ did on the cross.
Say does anyone know where Joseph Smith came up with his “You can become a god too” program? I’m just curious about any other religion that promises it’s adherents diety status if they do a certain program. Now we know he didn’t have this “truth” when he wrote the BoM. In fact his book is a mixture of lifted sections from the Bible mixed liberally with 19th century evangelical revivalism and a theory, quite common at the time, that the American Indians were of Jewish ancestry. So the BoM, with the exception of the Indian stuff, was pretty much a reflection of mainline protestantism of the time. So I’m wondering where this religious innovator came up with the god program. Anyone out there know? And no, he got it from God, won’t make it. God revealed Himself in the Bible. JS, like a lot of false prophets, didn’t let the truth of the Bible get in the way of his thought process.
falcon…actually come to think of it he was rather reserved…at least he said it was a future possibility…makes me think of the Word of Faith gurus like Kenneth Copeland who said “You don’t have a God in you. You are one.” Scary stuff!!
I like what Jeffery said about Jesus building the bridge between us and God. For those of you who missed it here it is again –
”Think of eternal life with God as one side of a cliff, and you are on the other side. You can try and jump across by your own merits but you will fall straight to hell. Jesus Christ isn’t simply half a bridge that only stretches halfway across the cliff so you have to make jump across and “hopefully” you’re a good enough athlete to do so.
The truth is that Jesus Christ is the complete bridge. Stretching all the way across to God. His death for our sins was the finishing nail on that bridge.”
The reason I like this is that that is one way we LDS teach about the atonement, that Jesus built the bridge to allow us to go back to live with Heavenly Father. One small thing Jeffery left out is that we have to cross the bridge ourselves – that is the effort we need to put in, just a little walk.
Another analogy that comes up is that salvation is a gift. That’s right, but once we are given a gift we have to open it and use it, not leave it unwrapped on a shelf collecting dust – again that is all the effort we need to put in.
I remember an article on this site a few weeks ago entitled “Any reason to fear” discussing Matt 7:21-23 and a comment in the article was ”Someone believing he is secure in his salvation may not be frightened by these words, but he would be foolish to dismiss them so readily. After all, Jesus is warning of self –deception — He is speaking specifically about people who (mistakenly) believe they are secure in their salvation.” Many of you said that you did have that little thought in the back of your minds along those lines but some of you were adamant that this scripture did not apply to them. So if we have warnings like this in the Bible, how can you say that you are definitely saved if you do not believe in spiritual witnesses? Remember only 5 virgins (Christians) were allowed in the feast not all.
I have never understood why there is such a debate over the grace/works issue. I have always seen them as one in the same. I absolutely believe that we are saved by grace and that only faith in our Lord and Savior will allow us to be saved. What does true faith in our Lord mean? It means believing in Him and all that He has done and living his commandments (works). If we are not doing the best we can at following his commandments (works)then is our faith not in question? One example deals with baptism. In John 3:5 The Lord says that you cannot enter heaven without baptism. Is baptism or even repentance not works??? Why would I repent and be baptized? Because I truly have faith in Jesus Christ. I have never ended my day wondering if I have done enough works to be saved. Rather, I ask my self how I can be a better person and live according to God’s will. I try to repent of my errors each day…Why??? Because I have faith in the Lord.
Falcon- You’re silly! I like your sense of humor. Keep the fun stuff coming, as it lightens up the mood on this website full of seriousness.
I think we can make some key assumptions about religion. You would think that a religion that teaches you to do as Christ did, and learn what Christ taught, and continue to learn what Christ teaches through his prophets, wouldn’t get so much attention from other Christians. I thank you for your attention, but folks… let’s think about it… God doesn’t care if we are good people here on earth? Does that make sense to anyone? The commandments that he gave us are simply to be there in case we want to follow them, but it really doesn’t matter if we follow them or not… because regardless, we just have to say “I believe”… I can’t believe that the squabble you have with Mormons is that they believe they need to be good people to make it back to God. YES, Christ made the ultimate sacrifice, but that isn’t a free gift. We have to follow him… seriously, we have to follow him. Walk across the bridge, open the gift, do our part, follow christ, keep the commandments, whatever you want to call it. You say that our beliefs of becoming like our “Father in heaven” are far fetched and outright crazy (I read co-heirs with Christ in the Bible), but I find it pretty crazy that people think they can pass the test without studying, cross the bridge without walking, be like Christ without doing anything (because it doesn’t matter).
LDSTIT- That very big IF may be the most important IF you’ll ever be wrong about. Better check again.
Sharon- Thank you for your response. I would love to hear your position on the book Jesus The Christ or The Infinite Atonement. They are both books that focus on Christ, and how he brings salvation to us. Although this book that you cited may focus equally (if not more) on works, there are many LDS religious books that focus on Christ. You know that our central focus is on Christ.
RWYA
About every month or so we cycle through a whole new bunch of Mormons who come on here, try to be cute and clever and try to challenge Biblical Christianity. You’ll be gone soon after you do the testimony pitch and after getting challenged with some tough questions where you actually have to demonstrate that you know something. You will not “feel the spirit” here, pitch the testimony one last time and pack-up your bag of tricks and move on.
You need to understand something very clearly though. I don’t care and neither does anyone else here care, if you want to believe you’re going to become a god. Work the program. Put on your party hat and gown, wrap yourself in your apron, do the hocus pocus and maybe if you hit the celestial jackpot you’ll get to see the spirits of dead people that others have claimed to have seen.
Biblical Christianity bares no resemblance to the god-maker program. Again, if you want to believe in it, have at it. I’ll depend on the Cross of Christ for my salvation.
Paul sounds like a Mormon.
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore FEAR, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to COME SHORT OF IT.
How does one “come short” if they have already met the requirement of a simple confession of belief? Must be mor to it than that.
1 Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
WOW!, That sounds like a lot of work!!!
Arthur said:
“So Cluff, there is still hope for you. You can repent of your sins and turn to Christ and be saved.”
Why do I need to leave the LDS church to do that? Fill me in please!
We turn to Christ EVERY time we repent, and for a bonus we get to renew the covenant of baptism when we take the sacrament on Sunday.
That coventant is:
1. Take Christ’s name upon ourselves.
2. Remember him always.
3. Keep his commandments to the best of our ability.
If that’s not turning to Christ I don’t know what is.
Failing to turn to Christ would be to give him lip service– you know sing Glory Glory? Then fail to repent entirely by choosing to live in sin.
The repentance and the turning to Christ are one in the same event, and the LDS Church is the only one that has that right. I guess that is why so many of us manage to abandon sin once in a while.
The REAL event was published properly in Acts:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The evidence of salvation is the evidence that Peter gives– the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Mormons have that gift, I am proof positive. I have that witness myself.
GB,
The first passage you seem to be making such a merit is about falling into unbelief. Which can be work for some I guess.
The second, which I think you meant 2 Cor 7:1, can reasure you that your work is never done.
As for Paul SOUNDING like a mormon, he is not amused by fables, or perverted gospel.
In Heb 8:1, he clarifies even more the insignifigance of ordainances of man.
W/LOVE
Correct me if I’m wrong please, but don’t you have to have a bunch of wives to make it to the top of the god program? I’m no expert on this but what is D&C 132 all about? My understanding is that that little principle is still on the books. So the Salt Lake City branch of LDSism is really out of luck because they’re in this catch 22 situation. Now the FLDS folks get to be gods, according to Joseph Smith because they have stuck with that old time religion as revealed to the grand poo bah of all time. At least one Mormon group has dumped the whole god program seeing Joseph Smith as a fallen prophet. This group says the multiplicty of gods is not part of the original deal as laid out in the BoM. The Salt Lake bunch can’t figure out if they’re fish or fowl when it comes to the most fundamental of all the doctrines of Mormonism. The big lie of course has always been that you too can become a god. In order to make this work God has to be reduced to an exalted man with none of the attributes as detailed in the Bible. Of course in order for Mormonism to work the Bible has to be seen as a corrupted document with all of the god program stuff removed by means of a dastardly plot. I’m just wondering if Masons are going to become gods? Joseph Smith was a Mason and the Masons have temples and do the dress-up rituals as do Mormons. Oops forgot, they don’t have multiple wives. Their out of the program too.
Cluff, I’ll let Arthur answer and I don’t want to speack for him. But here are my two cents:
1) You toil in vain for something that is already there and waiting for you to accept. When you rely on your own works you rely on your works, not on Christ. That’s why you must work, because you are doing something above what Christ did. The difference is subtle, and I outlined it some above, but it is important.
See, to us, Christ is our work. Our work does not lead us to him, our work is expressly because of him and he is a) the one leading us and b) our simple motivation to work. It is not required– we want to.
Contrasting these, one is a requirement (no matter how much you want to, if you don’t do the things, you’re SOL; the other is something that one does with a pure heart. Can the first be done with a pure heart? Probably, but two issues follow. To see the first, witness those who think they have not worked enough and second, see point #2.
2) A huge problem that I have left out of this discussion heretofore is that you work to the wrong Christ. Your’s is a creation, and not matter what the heart is, or what the motivation for working is, you further work in vain because your way to salvation is through a false god. This simply means you can never make it to heaven based on worshipping your god. He’s called Christ, yes. He’s based on the one from the Bible. But he’s an imitation.
That’s my two cents on the questions you posed.
2)
reggie…how can you say that your focus is on Jesus Christ? He said He was only way to the Father. But if you have been to your temple then you think the way to the Father is in knowing secret words and handshakes. Doesn’t this seem the remotest bit odd to you? Maybe all the freemasons will get into the CK by default because they know those as well…ha!
[Paragraph deleted by moderator. reggiewoodsyall, the desire to strike back at criticism is natural, but the Mormon Coffee comment policy requires that critical comments be directed toward ideas or institutions, not individuals. Thanks for your ongoing participation at Mormon Coffee.]
LDSTIT- “How can you say that your focus is on Jesus Christ?” Well, LDSTIT, I guess I can say that because I believe that. As do all Mormons… just because you think we don’t, doesn’t mean we don’t. Capiche? There are many teachings in our religion. Temple ordinances, despite your mockery of these things we hold to be sacred, are a portion of the gospel. Despite our other beliefs (aside from Jesus Christ), of course we’ll teach and discuss other principles of the Gospel. But everything we believe is tied back into Christ. Since you know so much about secret handshakes, you will also know that the symbolism in the temple is centered around Christ, his teachings, and his sacrifice. Go ahead and claim different, but you know it is. Our baptism is centered around Christ. Our sacrament is centered around Christ. Our scriptures (including the Bible, even though everyone says we don’t believe it… rubbish) are centered around Christ. The structure of our church is centered around Christ. And our beliefs in salvation are centered around Christ. No matter what you claim on this website, or on any other, that’s what we believe. Despite your malconceived ideas, that’s what we believe. I’ll probably stick around for a while… because not only do i enjoy defending my faith, but I also find it amusing the silly ideas that you all have about our religion. Silly.
Part 1
Ralph “The reason I like this is that that is one way we LDS teach about the atonement, that Jesus built the bridge to allow us to go back to live with Heavenly Father. One small thing Jeffery left out is that we have to cross the bridge ourselves – that is the effort we need to put in, just a little walk.”
Two points I need to clarify.
Once you get to the bridge, that’s is where Jesus is. You said we have to cross the bridge of Jesus ourselves, which I don’t view as correct. Remember when I said that we are all crippled by sin and the best we can do is fall on our knees and crawl to Jesus (the bridge)? That act of crawling is our faith that once we get to Jesus (the bridge) he will meet us there, right at the beginning. He will pick us up, dust us off, heal us, and walk WITH us to God. Now as we are crossing the bridge, with the divine grace and help of our Lord, we will be tempted left and right, which can eventually lead us to abandon the Lord and fall into the pits below. But as you continue to live the Lord’s commandments, it will be easier for you to keep your focus on God.
You see, the salvation, the grace, all is given right at the beginning of your walk as a Christian because you have decided to have faith in who Jesus said He is. The best way I heard it put is that “we respond to God’s grace with works, but in Mormonism, God responds to our works with grace.” – I still maintain as opinion that the general Mormon view is that Jesus is only half a bridge, and we have to make impossible jumps to reach him.
My second point is this –
Lets be honest Ralph. Jesus Christ isn’t all that is necessary for celestial exaltation in Mormonism. LDS authority has included all of this extra fluff like temple marriage, endowments, priesthoods, etc.. to reach the Father.
Part 2 coming up……
Do you not believe Christ who said that He is “THE WAY”? He didn’t say he was PART of the way. He didn’t say “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me and some handshakes your going to have to learn, along with marriage to 1 or more LDS women (D&C 132 would state that you have to have multiple), specific rituals, and so on.”
Whenever there is anything else BUT Jesus, it takes focus away from Him. It makes him “not quite enough.” In Mormonism, Jesus Christ isn’t even God, hes a God among many more powerful Gods.
I would never be a part of a religion that holds a lower view of Jesus Christ than what the Bible has shown Him to be. You can tell when Jesus Christ isn’t the center focus of a religion because there is all this middle-men blocking your view from the true Jesus.
reggie…I like your personality and I think we share a sincere passion for defending what we believe. I am not naive enough to think that my knowledge of Mormonism and my reasons for not accepting the “restoration” will convince a TBM. But in all seriousness…one of the evidences for the “total apostasy” was all the divisions in Christendom…so I ask how can there be almost 100 different groups all claiming to be based on Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Whether you recognize them or not doesn’t make them go away. Interestingly EVERY one of them claims to be the only true church on the face of the earth. The vast majority of churches in Christendom do not make this claim for themselves. How does this make the “restoration” any different?
Whew…out of posts and it isn’t even lunch time…Blessings till tomorrow!
LDSTIT- I’m right there with you! This is my last post for the day… and i still need to eat breakfast.
Thanks for your comments, i hope they were sincere! Here’s the deal… My reasoing leads me to believe that if one sect teaches one thing, and another teaches another thing, then they can’t all be right. So, if “I’m” right, then you’re wrong. That also means that those 100 (i don’t think there are that many) different groups that you mentioned are also wrong. I’m not saying that they’re bad people, i’m not saying they don’t have faith, i’m not saying they don’t follow christ… i’m just reasoning right now. If the pope is right, then I’m wrong. That also means that the 100’s of other groups that broke off of/contend with/have different beliefs than the Catholic church are also wrong. ANd we can discuss why they’re wrong or whatever, that’s not my point right now, Once again, i’m just reasoning. So it truly is no difference in my mind. It’s either there was a continual line of priesthood/truth/leadership or else there was an apostasy and it was restored. Let’s forget all of the nuances and silly things that get tossed around here. Salvation comes down to one simple thing… are we doing what God wants us to do. If all God wants us to do is believe, then I’m wrong. If God wants us to believe, and also take care of business here on earth (take care of business to be defined as works), then I may be right. God will decide who salvation comes to, despite what I think you believe, what you think I believe, what I think I believe, etc. Lies are told about what I believe here on this website, and that’s an injustice, and that’s why i’m here.
In regards to my previous post, I’m offended that they didn’t allow it to be posted because it was not offensive, it was not an attack at a person, and it was directly related to comments that Jackg had posted. I didn’t think words like “silly” would get denied. I’ll do better… silly goose.
There isn’t anyone in the Utah based LDS that’s going to get exaltation to godhood. From an orthodox Mormon point of view, the Utah LDS church are a bunch of apostates. This branch of Mormonism dumped the only way to true exaltation when they stopped practicing plural marrage. The FDLS are the group, post BoM and BoC, that are keeping Joseph Smith’s orthodoxy. Even within Mormonism, the 1890 manifesto (which incidently was ignored by the then apostles) would be seen as a compromising of Smith’s restored gospel. Anyone can see that the 1890 manifesto was not a revelation from the Mormon god but rather a bending to the laws of man to fit into polite society. The prophet Smith and his successor Bringham Young wouldn’t have done it. So none of the Utah LDS males are going to make it to godhood. Why even mess with the program? Joseph Smith’s waiting behind the veil ready to yell “trick or treat” to you Utah folks. He’s not letting you into the celestial kingdom without a couple of babes on your arms. No way! He may even have first dibs on your wife. He did it in this life. What would stop him from pulling the same trick over there?
Reggie, you said
“Let’s forget all of the nuances and silly things that get tossed around here. SALVATION COMES DOWN TO ONE SIMPLE THING… ARE WE DOING WHAT GOD WANTS US TO DO. If all God wants us to do is believe, then I’m wrong. If God wants us to believe, and also take care of business here on earth (take care of business to be defined as works), then I may be right. GOD WILL DECIDE WHO SALVATION COMES TO, despite what I think you believe, what you think I believe, what I think I believe, etc.”
You said salvation comes down to one simple thing. I would argue with you that the LDS salvation system is not as simple as you make it. You have all these ordinances and pre-requisites (temple marriage)
So we have a question now.
What is it that God wants us to do? What is his Work for us? (John 6:28-29)
28 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”
29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:40 – “For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”
Romans 10:9-10
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
God’s word explicitly states who Salvation comes to in the above verses.
Now don’t think we believe you can just say you believe in Christ and then go off being a horrible person. To believe in Christ and have faith in him will cause a change in your heart. You will WANT to repent, you will WANT to be baptised, you will WANT to serve your fellow men. God has realized that fath in his Son will lead to all those works that he has commanded of us. Good works don’t lead you to salvation, Salvation leads you to good works!
“Good works don’t lead you to salvation, Salvation leads you to good works!”
Amen Jeffrey!
Peace out, have a good weekend all!
reggie…I hope that everything I have ever said on here is sincere! I do agree with Germit on another thread that the Christians on here could use a dose of 1 Peter 3:15 (including my sarcastic self). I think it’s easy to feed into angry words but then somehow the Truth looks alot less appealing. Let’s remember to turn our cheeks 🙂
I agree with your logic about sectarianism and I have often said “we can all be wrong but we can’t all be right.” Even Jewish scholars argue amongst themselves over interpretations of Torah. Somehow they can do that and still walk together into the synagogue as brothers. We Christians should aspire to that. My point regarding the BoM and it’s sects (and this guy counts over 100 http://divergentpaths.org/) is even if you do believe the BoM to be true how do you then know which group to join? It’s the Joseph Smith quandry all over again. We have established that the BoM doesn’t teach the priesthood, eternal progression, pre-existence, etc. so why don’t the LDS give out D&C instead so people don’t end up picking another restoration church? Don’t you think it is at least worth investigating why Joseph’s widow and several of his sons chose NOT to go with Brigham Young? You can spend alot of time studying them all and figuring out why YOU think they are all wrong…but their existence proves in summary form that sectarianism does NOT equal total apostasy.
As for the priesthood being lost…that was lost when the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. You have your work cut out for you in proving that any other kind of priesthood ever existed until Joseph Smith invented it. On that note…if the apostle John showed up to give Joseph that priesthood…and the apostle John never died…isn’t that another proof that a total apostasy couldn’t have happened? I still think a living apostle would trump a 14 yr old prophet. Heck he should have a bigger church that Joel Osteen!!
“The laws and ordinances by which men and women are exalted in the celestial kingdom of our God are eternal and do not change—and because they are eternal, they predate even God.” (8)
The rhetoric displayed on this focus on peripheral issues for the most part. This quote hits the crux of the Mormon position regarding God. The True and Living God created all things. Mormonism teaches that God was created. This is heresy in its purest form. Nothing can predate God unless your god is a false god, created by human minds and/or human hands. God created time. God is not governed by ordinances and laws that predate Him because there could be no such thing. God operates outside of time and space because He created both. All the Mormons on this post can think what they want of me; it doesn’t matter and I don’t lose any sleep over it–but I lose sleep over the fact that Mormons are being led down a path that is lined with half-baked theology and outright false teachings. Because we operate in time and space, we think God does, which leads to us trying to understand Him in those terms. That will never happen in this lifetime. So, for anyone to state that anyone predates God is to preach a false doctrine, and is one that craftily leads people away from God. Such a person needs to identified as a false teacher/prophet. Now, the sad thing will be that Mormons will somehow want to defend this man’s words with regard to a god who has been created. The Creator is not the created. This is a huge red flag that Mormons choose not to see. Instead, they would rather attack Christians for defending God’s nature and His Word. The idea of Mormon exaltation is man centered and man-created. Salvation only requires faith in Jesus Christ. Our works are evidence of that faith, not the means to salvation in any way, shape, or form. But, that’s hard for some of us to wrap our brains around.
LDSTITATIC,
The Book of Mormon DOES talk about the Priesthood and the pre-mortal life. Check out Alma 13- the whole chapter is about these two things.
The succession of Priesthood authority and leadership of the church after Joseph Smith is very clear. In counsel with the The Quorum of the twelve apostles, Joseph told them they would need to carry on without him and that THEY held the authority. And yes, we rely on those twelve men’s testimonies about that fact, but they all agree. The other claims have no weight if you follow the pattern of authority followed during Joseph’s life.
In addition, consider the Book of Mormon’s light on the subject. The ancient prophet Nephi prophesied that additional books of scripture would come forth after the Book of Mormon. It contains a prophecy of Joseph Smith’s martydom. Following BOM prophecies, one would conclude that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Christ’s church as established through Joseph Smith.
The BOM also says the “covenant people” of the Lord would be spread throughout the world in latter days after the restoration, although their numbers would be few. It can be argued, and I believe, that this has reference to those who have made covenants in temples throughout the world. None of the “offshoots” of the early LDS church match this description.
The fact that some left the church and formed their own doesn’t diminish in any way the LDS church. Such is true of any organization. While it is sad that Emma and others went another direction, none could claim any authority (as outlined through Joseph Smith) in what they did.
faithoffathers…well this is a whole new can of worms then…this authorizes high priests after the order of the Son of God…I know nothing of this order in Mormonism? What gives there? I do not see anything in this chapter referring to a pre-existence tho. What am I missing?
So you are willing to admit that in ANY organization splitting and sectarianism will happen? Then Joseph was wrong to make this a basis for declaring a total apostasy.
The comment above asserting that the doctrines of the LDS Church teach the ” necessity of personally achieving “conquest over sin,” “successfully obey[ing]“ the commandments, and “be[ing] faithful to the covenants we make with the Lord.” are as expected, just plain false. The best efforts of all mortals accomplish little without the redeeming blood of Christ. That is LDS Doctrine. Doing the best we can with what we have and are capable of, is jut plain old integrity and personal responsibility. We do our best, we ask Christ to fill in the rest and have faith in him that he will.
Your need to project anything other than that is a sad commentary on you, not on the doctrine of the church.
An additional dishonesty is evident when you say that God can only speak through the Bible. The Bible itself is a record of Him speaking to man before there was ever a bible printed or bound.
What is honest is to tell the world the following, “I have decided for me, that God is incapable of speaking to man other than through the Bible and based on that personal decision, here is what I have decided to believe…”
You have no more right to declare for the world, that the Bible is the only way God speaks to man today, than LDS Missionaries have the right to interpret for others what to believe. LDS Missionaries teach what they believe and expect learners to make personal decision that is based on them and their personal relationship with God. That approach has integrity because it leaves the decision up to the individual.
That may be bitter coffee to you, however, So I suggest you don’t drink coffee.