The LDS General Conference in October 1900 focused a lot on the law of tithing. The repetition on that topic was due to the feeling among Church leadership that the second coming of Christ was near and the Saints needed to be prepared. “We should see to it that nothing is left undone by us, no commandment unfulfilled, no counsel or instruction disregarded” taught President George Q. Cannon. He said,
“Many who are now within the sound of my voice have been promised that they shall live, if they have faith, to behold the second coming of the Lord. The Lord has also promised that certain events shall take place while men that are standing in the generation in which these promises were made will Yet [sic] be alive.” (Conference Report, 64)
President Lorenzo Snow taught something similar. He quoted Doctrine and Covenants 63:24-31, a passage about the Saints building Zion in Jackson County, Missouri. President Snow explained:
“Now the time is fast approaching when a large portion of the people that I am now addressing will go back to Jackson county. A great many people that are now dwelling in the State of Utah will have this privilege. Whether I, President Cannon, President Smith, or all the brethren of the Twelve will go back I know not. But a large portion of the Latter-day Saints that now dwell in these valleys will go back to Jackson county to build a holy city to the Lord, as was decreed by Jehovah and revealed through Joseph Smith.” (Conference Report, 61)
So, to emphasize the need to be prepared, about half of the speakers at the Conference talked to the congregation about tithing. The other half talked about the necessity of keeping other commandments. Heber J. Grant, referencing 1 Nephi 3:7, said in his talk,
“We have the commandments of the Lord before us in the written word, and from time to time we have our minds refreshed by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon those who are called upon to preach to us. There is therefore no excuse for the Latter-day Saint who does not keep the commandments of God. We cannot say that we do not knew what our duties are, because they are so often and so forcibly brought to our minds by those who speak to us… Each one should search his own heart to find out wherein he has failed, and then he should diligently seek unto our heavenly Father for the assistance of His Holy Spirit, that he may come back into the straight path. By the assistance of our Heavenly Father there is no obligation and no law in the Church that we cannot fulfill. The Lord will give us the strength and the ability to accomplish every duty and labor that rests upon us in an acceptable manner in His sight. The only question is, have we the disposition?” (Conference Report, 33)
President Cannon taught,
“The Lord has revealed unto us that which He wants us to do, and though we do not receive written revelations (the men who have held the keys have not always felt led to write revelations as the Prophet Joseph did), the servants of the Lord do receive revelations, and they are as binding upon the people as though they were printed and published throughout all the Stakes of Zion. The oracles of God are here, and He speaks through His servant whom He has chosen to hold the keys. He gives revelations to others also concerning many matters, but it is reserved for one man, and one man alone at a time, to give revelations to the Church. We have been blessed as a people with an abundance of revelation. Some have deceived themselves with the idea that because revelations have not been written and published, therefore there has been a lessening of power in the Church of Christ. This is a very great mistake, as we will find out sooner or later. This Church has been continually led by the spirit of revelation. The spirit of revelation has been here in our conference. The addresses that have been delivered have been made under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and they are the word of God unto this people, binding upon them, and they will be judged by these words that we have heard. If we do not listen to these instructions and counsels and abide by the word of God as it is given to us from time to time, we shall be held to a strict accountability.” (Conference Report, 64)
Several things stand out to me from this Conference. One is the surety among Mormon leaders that “many” alive in 1900 would still be alive at the second coming of Christ, and that “a large portion” of the people in the congregation would live to return to Jackson County, Missouri to build up the holy city of Zion. This was 108 years ago. There may be a few of those people still alive, but surely not “a large portion” remain.
Another interesting teaching from the Conference is that Latter-day Saints cannot offer excuses for failing to fulfill every obligation, law and duty in the LDS Church. People cannot alleviate the burden of keeping all the commandments by saying “nobody’s perfect.” First Nephi 3:7 means what it says; everyone is able to fulfill every commandment.
Finally, there’s the declaration that the General Conference teachings (and other unwritten revelations) “are the word of God unto this people, binding upon them, and they will be judged by these words…”. For those Mormons who claim that the teachings of LDS prophets, seers and revelators are not binding because they fall outside the Standard Works, or because they were not written down, or because they have not been canonized, President Cannon’s words must be disconcerting. Perhaps they need to rethink their position.
Fof,
Please answer my questions. They are listed above. Answer them directly, do not dodge by saying that the prophets of old would be held differently. That is a different topic– and they are proved right by the accuracy of the prophecies, something Mormon prophets have trouble with.
Don’t say you relied on God to prove one book, because one can read Dianetics and rely on god to get his answer.
You have to explain the answer to why your test is correct.
I look forward to your response.
FoF,
You ask an excellent question. It goes something like this, “Jesus said stuff. Jesus said it’s written in the law and the prophets and yet what He quoted can’t be found in the Bible.” Naughty, naughty boy FoF. You did the Mormon thing on us here. See if you can figure out what it is?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” One of the most important titles of Christ is Logos/Word. The idea behind this title embodied God’s revelation of Himself to humanity. The phrase occurs over 1,200 times in the OT and it refers to the message of God. Jesus is the expression and communication of the Word. He is the incarnate and the inspired Word. Satan is twice recorded in Scripture as tempting someone. On the first occasion HE QUESTIONED THE INTEGRITY OF THE WORD OF GOD. On the second occasion he questioned the integrity of Christ, The Word of God incarnate. Those who question the validity of the Scriptures today similarly question the integrity of Christ. This is Mormonism in a nutshell. Mormonism quesitons the integrity of the Bible and also the integrity of Jesus, demoting Him to a created being and not the eternal God. So what’s the source of Mormonism? God won’t deny Himself, who He is, His nature. But Mormonism, with it’s on-going revelation, have chosen another God, not the God who is the revealed Word of God. Those who deny the Word as revealed by God in His Word, have the spirit of the antichrist. I don’t see any reason to beat around the bush here. All have a choice to make here. Do they want to choose the spirit of the antichrist as revealed by Joseph Smith a false prophet or do they want to recieve the living Christ revealed in and by God’s Word. There are eternal consequences at stake here. God is reaching out to all who would receive Him by faith. Today is the day of your salvation. You’ve been thinking about this for some time. Don’t delay.
FOF,
Thanks for your response. It seems that we have been able to get past our previous animosity and to dialogue appropriately and respectfully. There’s a lot of truth being spoken by the other bloggers, and I don’t think I have any more to add. I just pray that some of what is being said will prompt you to question some of the teachings of the leaders of the Mormon Church. We truly believe that Mormons are being misled all the way to hell (please don’t take offense). That’s as blunt as I can put it, but that is why we do what we do when we engage on this blog. I understand that Mormons worry about our souls and want to see us in the Celestial Kingdom; we just don’t believe that God has burdened us with legalism that pulls one away from the grace of God, which is the good news of the gospel. Even though we will have to agree to disagree, I know that we will both contend for that which we believe to be true.
Grace and Peace!
Alright MichaelP, I’ll burn my last post for you, and it’s not even noon.
Whose revelation is correct- Mine. I absolutely believe that. Do I think people who believe other things are doomed- no. The BOM is the only book I know of containing a promise that any sincere person can know if it is true through a personal test. It is very specific and precise. Other books you mentioned claim to contain truth, and most if not all do contain truth. But the BOM does not just contain some truths- it was either translated by a prophet of God or it wasn’t. Black and white. I think that is one reason God accomplished its translation through miraculous means- to reflect and signify the prophetic role of a modern day prophet. This allows a person to KNOW many more things that must logically follow. It is actually quite unique, I therefore disagree that others use the “exact same test.” I think many people follow tradition along with feeling good about truths they recognize. Some are more diligent and desirous in seeking all truth possible. Of course, not everybody has the same exposure or availability to truth.
I do not doubt at all the sincerity of other people. And there are people a lot smarter than I. The personal responsibility “thing” is not a cop out. Of course God has a hand in guiding us- that is my whole point. But we have to do our part in seeking Him. We are not balls in a pinball machine with no control. We can’t completely rely on other people. We must rely on God. How would you have it? Does a person just ask God if the BOM is true without studying it. Does one rely only on other people’s opinion? Any “test against” the bible comes down to his interpretation of the bible, which varies widely.
God prepared the BOM for our day- the last days- in preparation for the second coming of Christ. It is the instrument He prepared to gather and prepare a people for His return
Thank you Faithoffathers,
But that really wasn’t the question as to which is true. The question was how does the test show it is true.
All of what you said does not address the sincerity others put into their search. And that’s the crux of the question. Some die because they beleive as sincerely as possible that god’s instructions to them are correct. Same as what you say– revelation! God told me so it must be!
There is no way to differentiate truth based on this test. Good feelings don’t get there, and you can that the BoM holds all truth but someone else will say the Koran does. Can you go, point by point, and prove the BoM above any of these other books with any evidence besides the “testimony”? No!
That’s the point, and that’s the problem with relying on testimony. It is not proof.
So, how is your test the most accurate and best?
Michael P- I am trying to understand your question as what I have posted has not satisfied you.
I would disagree with you when you say “there is no way to differentiate truth based on this test” (referring to study, humble prayer, etc). Am I correct in understanding that you feel their needs to be “proof” outside of revelation in order for something to be accepted?
You ask “how does the test show it is true,” referring again to the BOM test. Here is my take my friend- critics often refer to the “burning in the bosom” and do so in a mocking manner. In fact, that phrase was used in another context altogether originally (to Oliver Cowdery). But even members of the church have often adopted this language. In reality, the statement in Moroni says “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
That is the simple promise- the Holy Ghost will communicate to you. That may seem very wishy-washy to you, but not to somebody who has experienced that communication. I believe God will communicate in a way that is satisfying to the individual. By that I mean, with an answer that is clear and convincing. This answer can take infinite forms. I also believe the power of the answer is usually proportional to the effort and humility offered by the supplicant.
Read Moroni 7:14-18.
I get worried when a person demands “objective proof.” I have mounds of objective proof for the BOM, but that is not how I know it is true. Remember Christ’s statements about those who demand proof, or a sign?
As far as so many different sincere people with different answers- that is exactly why we try to share the gospel with the whole world- to give everybody a chance to try this “experiment on the word.”
FoF,
I really appreciate your thoughtful interaction here. I have a couple of thoughts on your response to my comments. First of all, you mentioned that your personal revelation was tied to your study of the book which you were seeking a revelation of. This is different than what I was referring to by scripture study. The examples we find in the NT are of investigators studying and comparing the new revelation with the OT prophecies to see if the new revelation lined up with these prophecies. These investigators were not told to seek personal revelation to know the truth of the modern revelation. Rather, Paul and the other apostles “reasoned” with people “out of the scriptures” (Acts 17:2-4) just as Jesus expounded to His disciples from the scriptures how He fulfilled OT prophecies (Luke 24:27). This strategy doesn’t work well for LDS since the Bible doesn’t prophesy about the BoM or JS (except in JS’s own translation), and my understanding is LDS don’t have much success winning converts who are well-studied in the Bible due to LDS tendencies toward eisegetical interpretations.
You also stated that you feel my trail of logic leaves a great proportion of “God’s children” in the dark. First of all, I have to address a side note of this statement because you alluded to a significant area of disagreement between the Bible and modern revelation. The Bible is very clear on the fact that we are not all God’s children until we are born again (John 1:12-13). Before we are born again we are the children of the devil and the devil is our father (John 8:44, Acts 13:10, I John 3:10). This is significant to me regarding the promise in the BoM because I am aware (as a result of personal experience with spiritual warfare) that demons will often masquerade as deity. They will often go by names such as “Father,” “Jesus,” “Spirit,” etc.
cont…
cont from last post…
Since we have historical documentation from the BoM witnesses that Moroni 7:14-18 was inspired through the use of divination (a practice forbidden in scriptures such as Deut 18:10-12), it is obvious for many of us here where the inspiration behind Moroni 7:14-18 comes from. I believe a person will receive a revelation by following the instructions of this passage, but I tend to agree with Joseph Smith when he said “some revelations are from the devil.” What do you think about this? Doesn’t the method of “translation” bother you at all? Or the fact they have made over 4,000 changes to the BoM since the 1830 edition? Who authorizes the changes when there are no manuscripts to compare? They’re hardly insignificant changes either when “Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the eternal Father” is changed to “Behold the Lamb of God, yea even the son of the eternal Father” (I Nephi 11:21).
As far as people being in the dark without the Word of God, I believe they absolutely are! That’s why we are commanded to share the gospel with every creature. God uses His children in His plan to reach the world with the good news of what He has done for them. “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:14)
I’m well behind topic here, but I got to watch the video on the “Impossible Gospel” last night, and the impression I got was how much Mormonism was a religion of self (and how similar it is to medieaval Roman Catholicism prior to the reformation).
The signal I get from Mormons is “I don’t care what I believe because I’m a Mormon”, or “we don’t care what our leaders say because they are Mormons too”.
FoF, still no answer. Because there is no answer.
Again, I appreciate your attempt to reconcile this, as it seems sincere. But its lacking in substance.
And I know you truly believe your thoughts to be true, and that this testimony of the spirit is, in your mind, real enough that it cannot be true.
But still, it remains unanswered how people who use that same test can get wildly different results. You say you will know, but so will those people. So what’s the difference?
Each element of your test someone else can use and come up with a different result, and be sincere about it.
That you do not see my question indicates either lack of clarity on my part, or something on yours. Perhaps someone else can chime in and say whether or not I am clear.
But, if I am clear, then there is a blindness on your part. As others have said, the problem with your test is obvious to anyone outside your situation.
Jessica added some good evidence to call into question even the premise of the test considering Mormonism. There’s more, as you have been told. Whether or not you see it is a matter of you wanting to see it. But that’s another topic.
And if my question is still unlcear, how is it that I can get the same confidence in my faith using prayer with a sincere heart than you do?
Sorry, just noticed in my comment that I cited Moroni 7:14-18, but I was referring to Moroni 10:3-5.
The topic that got this whole thing kicked off was the statement regarding the fact that Mormons have to believe the stuff their prophets say regardless of whether or not it was written down. We’ve concentrated (on other threads) on the veracity, accuracy and not yet ready for primetime utterances of many of these prophets. So confusion is the order of the day for Mormons. There is no systematic theology or standard test for Mormons as to what is “revelation” or what is not. Mormons want to leave the door open in case the Mormon god changes his mind. Mormonism is a convoluted patch work of prophecies, teachings and doctrines that fall out of favor in subsequent generations. Often times this is due to outside pressure or outright embarrassment on the part of new generations of Mormon faithful. The Community of Christ Mormon sect more accurately reflects early Mormon doctrine. The FLDS more accurately reflects Brigham Young era Mormonism. Salt Lake City Mormonism of today reflects a reformation of Brigham Young era Mormonism-brought on by the Reed Smoot hearings in the U.S. Senate and the desire for Utah to become a state. Mormonism has to remain flexable because it is a generational religion. It gets taken into the shop periodically and gets it’s doctrines, teachings and practices overhauled to reflect the new paradgim. The challenge for the Mormon leadership is to keep the faithful fat, dumb and happy so they won’t recognize the hypocrasy, inconsistancies and lack of credability within Salt Lake City Mormonism.
JessicaJoy,
I really appreciate your thoughts and questions.
All scripture comes from revelation- from inspiration from the Holy Ghost. I STRONGLY affirm that a person who reads that scripture later is convinced of its truth and importance by that same spirit- the same line of communication in which it was originally given. Independent of other influences. It is great to have outside information corroborate revelation, but it is the spirit of revelation that converts and conveys truth.
We may have to agree to disagree on this one. How did people learn the truth before there was recorded scripture?
What about relying on the arm of flesh? Needing objective proof seems to qualify as such reliance.
I think one of your points is that new revelation must not contradict previously given scripture. And I would say that the BOM meshes beautifully with the Bible. But a person has to know the BOM to know how they mesh.
There is a role for reasoning with people to get them to a place where they will consider the scriptures and the gospel, but it is really an attempt to get them to seek revelation.
As far as demons, etc. I don’t know how to reconcile our beliefs. If we cannot rely on revelation or the spirit, we are left with reason and arguments of men- a scary proposition. Yes, I believe in the devil and his ability to confuse. But he will not try to convince people to believe in Christ and follow Him- even Christ said that didn’t make sense (a kingdom divided, etc.).
You also say the means of translation is suspect. I would love to discuss the urim and thummim at some point on this site. It is a fascinating topic. In short, use of these stones is documented in the old testament, and Jewish record provides many descriptions of how they were used among the ancient prophets and leaders. And JS’s description of them matches quite well with these old records. I have absolutely no problem with this means of revelation.
Cont…
JessicaJoy- you also bring up the changes made in the BOM. I actually own a copy of the transcriptions from the original manuscripts (and copies of some manuscripts) and the 1000 page analysis by Royal Skoussen. I can tell you that much has been made of these “4000 changes,” but there is not much in the argument. The process included multiple steps, each involving humans (scribe, typesetter, etc.). Almost all the changes have reflected errors in these steps. The example you provide is a common one used by critics. I think it reasonable that upon reviewing this phrase, Joseph felt it important that it be clear whom the reference was to- so added “Son.” We don’t know, but much has been made of this- I don’t believe it is warranted. Will look back at this change in the Skoussen review and get back to you.
Michael P- my point is that the test I am trying to explain is like no other. No other book contains this promise. But, we believe that all people have some truth. Hence the statements like “we affirm every truth you possess and invite you to learn new truths,” or something to that effect. One of the big factors is EXPOSURE. If somebody who is sincere and humble doesn’t have a meaningful exposure to the truth of Christ’s sacrifice, they can still have revelation confirming the truth they DO have. Maybe that gets interpreted as confirming too much- I don’t know.
Another way of seeing it: If the BOM is true, then Thomas Monson is a prophet of God and people should follow him (Yes, some here will argue against that conclusion, given the assumption- but that is an easily addressed argument). In other words, the BOM does settle all pertinent gospel questions (not because it contains every truth). And if the LDS church is true, there is a role or context for all people in the sense that there is a framework for them to have exposure to all the truth at some point.
How do you answer your own questions? Interested in your view.
FoF – Thank you for your thoughtful response and you are right, we might have to agree to disagree on this one. I couldn’t help but mention that I completely agreed with your statement:
“I STRONGLY affirm that a person who reads that scripture later is convinced of its truth and importance by that same spirit- the same line of communication in which it was originally given. Independent of other influences”
I completely concur. And what was that line of communication and that spirit according to the facts of history?
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html
You said you believe in the devil and his ability to confuse, but you don’t believe he will try to convince people to believe in Christ and follow Him.
Then why does the Bible talk about false prophets who will come and teach false Christs? Who was Jesus referring to when he said “many will be deceived” in the latter days? What about in the end when these deceived people appear before Him and expect to gain entrance into heaven because they have been doing “wonderful works” in His name? And the real Jesus will tell them, “I never knew you” (Matt. 7:21-23).
I think there is a problem inherent in your answer, but we’ve about beaten that to death. That you don’t see it is telling, though. ALso, what do you think of the part in Romans where it says that none will be without excuse, and that evidence of Christ is available to all?
How do I answer the test of confirming a witness? Go to scripture! That’s the first step. Confirm what is said by what is written. God had everything written for a purose. Prayer is certainly important, as is a humble heart. But the first step to confirm a ‘revelation’ is to go to the scriptures.
So, if I hear a leader say something, I am going to confirm what he said based on scripture. This is a big problem in someone like Joel Osteen. And if I were to hear a voice that I should act in a certain way, I am going to go to the scripture to confirm that direction.
I believe everything we need is in scripture. Sometimes it may be difficult to discerm– but its there. Like in contrast to the WoW, I don’t need the extra source to tell me to live a heatlhy lifestyle.
I believe we can rely on the Bible’s words fully. By archeological evidence, by proven prophecy, by its continuity spanning thousands of years it is more than reliable.
And its reliability gives a tangible source to go to to answer difficult questions, or to compare notes, if you will. It helps to erase the sujective nature of your test, which implies sincerity (whatever that means), humbleness (same thing), and prayer to hear the voice of the spirit (how do you know it is the spirit?). You’ve got something objective to go by, which is lacking under your test.
Will people interpret things differently? Yes, likely, but there is always a right answer, and that is found by studying scripture appropriately. And, by the way, on matters of lesser importance (mode of baptism, for instance) there is room for disagreement.
So, in short, my test is to go to the Bible.
Hope that helps.
FoF said “Yes, I believe in the devil and his ability to confuse. But he will not try to convince people to believe in Christ and follow Him- even Christ said that didn’t make sense (a kingdom divided, etc.).”
This is the problem. The Bible explicitly warns you about this as Jessica pointed out and you turn a deaf ear to it. It’s akin to putting a blindfold on to the “new gospel” which the Scriptures ALSO warn you about.
There was a thread a while back. It had a quote from a talk given at a general conference by one of the authorities stating that the devil is straightforward in his attacks. (Pornogrpahy, violence, hatred, etc.). – And to that I disagreed completely.
Put yourself in the shoes of the ultimate deceiver, FoF. If you wanted to eternally seperate people from God, would you be straightforward on your attacks? Or would you sneak up on them, become a friend, and destroy them at the most perfect moment?
Sure, as the ultimate deceiver you can get many to fall away from God with being straightforward and drowning them in evil and sin, but if you wanted to deceive millions, you will have to be a bit more cunning than that.
I believe God gave us all consciences, and many people who commit murder know that they are doing wrong/evil things unless they are mentally deranged. Onlookers as well know that it is evil and wrong.
So whats more effective? Showing people the sin and evil they can partake of, that the very fiber of their being knows is wrong to seperate them from God?
OR
Feeding spiritually poisonous food to people covered with bits of sugar (truth) in order to make it go down easy and have them coming back for more. Not only that, it is a whole lot easier to share this food than to push people into lives of evil and wrong-doing.
Summary – You don’t give the devil enough credit and leave yourself spiritually naked and vulnerable. You may have a very hot bosom about things right now, but keep in mind, you are in the perfect position for Satan.
Michael P said “I believe we can rely on the Bible’s words fully. By archeological evidence, by proven prophecy, by its continuity spanning thousands of years it is more than reliable.”
Certainly not the stuff of mighty faith- faith to move mountains. Tradition will save nobody. Archeology will save nobody. This foundation is not what Christ taught. What happens when you take the archeological evidence and other proof away? These things do not create a relationship with God. Personal revelation does!
Funny that LDS are accused of not trusting Christ enough- that we rely on works and the arm of flesh. Yet it appears that is exactly what you are doing. Do you see the implications of what you are arguing here? But I give you more credit than that- I believe your foundation is based on your own revelation, even if you don’t know it.
You also said “Will people interpret things differently? Yes, likely, but there is always a right answer, and that is found by studying scripture appropriately.” Back to square one my friend. Who’s right in determining how to “study scripture appropriately”- there are a million opinions on this with a million different results.
Yes- we absolutely believe in modern revelation- just as available, reliable, and powerful as in ancient days. I submit that God is truly known on one’s knees in a closet rather than at a lectern in the seminary.
JessicaJoy- Did Christ mean that there would be people in the last days actually claiming to be Him? Maybe. I think it is more likely He was saying there would be people who would claim the ability to save people- from global warming, from overpopulation, from all kinds of created dangers and difficulties. I suggest there are more people who feel threatened by these perceived threats than from sin. This may sound silly, but think how these atheistic movements are distracting people from God. I think Christ’s words had many meanings.
continued…
Jeffrey- you said “You don’t give the devil enough credit and leave yourself spiritually naked and vulnerable. You may have a very hot bosom about things right now, but keep in mind, you are in the perfect position for Satan.”
Who is vulnerable to satan? Somebody who is proud and claims to know everything on their own or somebody who knows he/she is a “fool before the Lord,” and supplicates God?
Matt 26:41 “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation.” This is Christ’s instruction on avoiding temptation and being led astray.
I am advocating humble, sincere, whorshipful, trusting prayer as the ultimate means of finding truth. This, along with fasting and immersing oneself in scripture.
I so badly wish you guys would try “the experiment on the word” and open the Book of Mormon without prejudice and preconception. It is so beautiful. It contains mountains of proof within its covers.
FoF,
I don’t think that any of the evangelicals on here are saying to throw out personal revelation through prayer just because we have archaeological/historical/prophetic as well. In fact, I do feel the Spirit more when I pray to God than when something new pops up in the news confirming the accuracy of the Bible. It is the difference between meeting Abraham Lincoln, speaking to him directly and just reading about him in a book.
So I don’t know where you get the idea that personal revelation and that close relationship with God isn’t our primary avenue of spirituality.
So do me a favor and answer a question – If you were Satan, the father of lies and deceit, would it make sense to come as a wolf in sheep’s clothing? You wouldn’t use the old bait/switch? You wouldn’t offer just enough truth to make people think they are doing the right thing, only to find out in the end that Jesus “Never knew them?” I would submit that not everything that looks good, IS good. the LDS’s pretty temples are gorgeous, but the rituals done within are either from God, or pagan ritual. Just some things to ponder.
I don’t think I everything, I don’t know if you were trying to insinuate that. But, I can read. And thank God that he gives warning that we are able to understand and apply.
As far as Moroni’s challenge. I’ve done it, multiple times. Some times I would say that I wasn’t that sincere, but there have been times that I have been brought to tears because of the thought of not being with my wife in the eternities (she was LDS at the time). I attended a ward for 5 years, did weekly scripture study with her TBM family, and I received nothing.
God told me that the LDS church is NOT true through his silence. Today, the spirit fills my heart with peace and affirmation that I belong to his body of believers. I pray you find this freedom.
Fof, Thanks for your response. I feel like you haven’t really answered my question about the origin of the book and how you personally reconcile the fact that divination was used to produce this book. You mentioned the “Urim and Thummim” as being scriptural terms – can you show how these were ever used by OT prophets in the way that JS used the seer stone in the hat? Not only does the Bible forbid the kind of activities he was doing, but tells us that anyone claiming to be a prophet of God who makes 1 false prophesy is a false prophet. Clearly, JS failed the test.
While using his stone he failed to find treasure in a man’s field after he promised the man the treasure was there. There is a court record proving this occurred and the timing of this court case (after he received the First Vision but before he translated the Book of Mormon) is further incriminating proof against the BoM.
http://www.mormonthink.com/transbomweb.htm#courtrecords
He also made a false prophesy with his seer stone regarding the trip to Canada to sell the copyright to the BoM. Those are just a couple examples off the top of my head. There are so many others.
You said, “I so badly wish you guys would try “the experiment on the word” and open the Book of Mormon… It is so beautiful. It contains mountains of proof within its covers.”
The key words here are “within its covers” since there is a mountain of proof against it outside its covers. As far as the internal proof, it is in the eye of the beholder. I have personally found glaring contradictions with the Bible, such as the BoM impossible gospel which has been discussed on other threads. As far as the parts that seem inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Bible gives clear warning of how Satan can appear in a sugar-coated package as Jeffrey stated.
“Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light” (II Cor. 11:13-15)
Also, I think a person has to look beyond the BoM to all the subsequent prophecies and the D&C…
Hey I had an idea for MC moderators..
How bout a thread that is just an Anything thread that the course of conversation can go wherever the posters lead it to go, and just keep tight the reigns of these specific topic threads.. maybe that will allow people to just discuss whatever is on their mind, but get weekly topics to discuss.
Good idea?
FoF, Jeffrey already said it, but we do rely on the spirit to confirm truth. Its just that we test what the spirit says based on what is written. He asks a good question, and Jessica seems to be going the same direction, too. That question is can you fully trust the voices?
The question is rooted in something you probably agree with– that Satan will use every tool he can to decieve. This is expressed several times in the Bible (which is a reliable book).
You implore us to try your test. I implore you to try ours. Drop the Mormon goggles, and try to view the faiths for what they are. The freedom you will feel and the joy you will feel, and the comfort you will feel in Christ and Christ alone is beyond what you could ever imagine.
You don’t believe me? Why don’t you try it?
Or is this argument kind of like what you say about your test? Can you prove it?
So, back to that, how do you know the difference if you do not have a reliable and stable standard from which to judge?
That last question, and the standard, will bring you to the joy and comfort I spoke of. So, why don’t you try it? Or does your way of thinking go in one direction?
(Last comment comes from assumption that most Christians here have taken your test– have you taken ours?)
Jeffrey,
Thanks for the response. I appreciate the level-headed dialogue.
I did not intend to imply you thought you knew everything- I was using two extremes to illustrate a point. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
As far as satan deceiving people. I honestly think there is an overreliance on this idea. I understand the principle fine. But my sense is that this is used with an almost “knee jerk” response to dismiss anything LDS. Any good fruit or proof is quickly categorized as coming from the core of hell without a genuine consideration. Is that overstating it?
I appreciate your story. My own dad took several years studying the BOM before feeling like he had his answer (He is a linguist with degrees in ancient scripture from protestant and catholic seminaries). He is now the most enthusiastic BOM apologist I know. Sometimes it takes time. I don’t know why. But I say with all honesty that every person I know who has read the BOM with intensity (cover to cover several times) claims to “know” it is true.
JessicaJoy- Urim and Thummim means “lights and perfections” in Hebrew. Almost all the ancient references to them suggest they provided some type of light and luminesence. It makes sense to place them in a dark place to see what they reveal. As I mentioned previously, JS’s description matches very well with those from Hebrew records.
Something I find frustrating is that the spiritual “evidence” of the BOM, etc. is rejected based on objective (archeological, scientific) criteria. Then the objective (archeological,scientific) proof is rejected based on spiritual criteria. There seems no avenue to get some folks to read and consider the book objectively.
Michael P- what test of yours do you refer to? I read the OT/NT all the time. Cover to cover several times. I absolutely love it. Both the BOM and Bible bring me joy to the extreme!
From a Pentecostal prespective:
Suppose someone stands up in a congregation on Sunday morning and delivers a prophetic message to the whole church. The first thing to ask is whether or not the word is scriptural? Most prophetic words given in the church can find some analogy in the Scriture, if not direct scriptural support. But it’s not enough to simply ask if the word is scriptural. What if a Word is “directive”, telling the congregation to take some sort of action. In this case, it is the elders who must weigh this “directive” word and decide if and how it is to be implemented.
What if someone gives a “predictive” word foretelling the future? The question can be asked, “Who is giving the word. What is their track record in such matters.” If it is someone who habitually gets things wrong then they won’t be taken seriously. Ultimately, predictive and directive words can be judged by the leadership of the church only through the discernment of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can show us whether or not the predictions will come true. But this is not the highest level of discernment that the Holy Spirit has to offer the church. The Spirit of Truth is given to the church to show the church, especially its leadership, what promotes the love, testimony, and glory of Jesus. If the leadership of the church would follow resolutely after these three things-the love of Jesus, the testimony of Jesus, and the glory of Jesus-it would be very difficult for them to be deceived. When the church diligently pursues discernment, the judging of prophetic words isn’t so difficult. (Surprised by the Voice of God/Learning the Language of the Holy Spirit; Jack Deere, 1996, Zondervan)
Prophetic words and revelation are the stable of many religious traditions. So, the bottom line is, what is true? That’s pretty much it. Jesus told us that when the Spirit of Truth came He would lead us into all truth. Jesus didn’t say that every revelation or word is true.
Faithoffathers,
I have to laugh.
What a twist of arguments.
I don’t think I need to respond beyond saying this: reading the Bible is great, but not what we’ve been talking about.
Good day.
I see in my last post I used “stable” for “staple”. Yes the falcon knows the difference between “stable” and “staple”. Sometimes my internal editor doesn’t work when I’m deep in thought.
It must come as somewhat of a shock to our Mormon friends, with their limited view and limited experience within the Christian community, to think that Christians actually believe in revelation. Some Christians, to be sure, are flakey when it comes to this. Others of us, however, actually hold people accountable for their prophetic utterances and revelations. We also don’t let people create new scripture or new views of the nature of God based on a vision they claimed to have gotten from God. We have a scriptural standard by which everything is judged. Using such a standard keeps the Believers from fliting all over the place, jerked here and there by every supposed new revelation and word from the Lord. Mormons don’t enjoy such a tradition. They’re pretty much stuck with their prophet’s utterances and left scratching their heads and …….I was going to say asking questions regarding the veracity of the utterance but I know Mormons don’t do that. Sincerity is no judge as to whether or not something is true. Too many people are sincerely wrong.
FoF: you wrote
“then the objective (archeological,scientific) proof is rejected because of spiritual criteria…” I think I copied that OK…..
In a word, FoF: BALONEY. The ‘proof’ just doesn’t hold up, OBJECTIVELY, and therefore the SPIRITUAL claims are suspect. I know we will probably agree to disagree about what may or may not be ‘convincing proof’, but I’ve yet to see an instance on this blog where the LDS side had the upper hand so much in these physical/scientific areas that the christians went running back to bible proof texts for cover. I’ve been contributing here since May or June, and I submit that just has not happened.
Count me ALSO looking forward for the ‘physical evidences for the BofM’ thread. Still enjoying your posts. GERmIT
FoF,
I think I will say one more thing on this topic while trying to stay within the confines of this thread.
The Bible talks about ‘discerning of spirits’ and tells us to ‘test the spirits’ as many false prophets have gone out into the world. From personal experience with spiritual warfare, I have learned how Satan and demons can often affect emotions and create feelings to try to deceive a person. There does not appear to be room in LDS theology for discerning of spirits. LDS are taught that spiritual feelings are the still, small voice of God.
When God speaks to me, it often comes as a word of knowledge or a quiet understanding that is right in line with His Word and illuminates and expands upon His Word so that I understand something directly applicable to my situation. I treat feelings with suspicion and test them against the Word. I have found Jeremiah 17:9 to be true time and again. Our heart can deceive us and we cannot always trust the feelings of our heart. Spiritual discernment involves the mind.
I do not judge the BoM solely because of the glaring lack of archeological/scientific proof (although this further validates my belief), but my primary reason is because it teaches another gospel. The only way to say it doesn’t is either to not take it literally or to say the Bible is corrupt. If we say the Bible is corrupt, we are not believing Jesus’ promise to preserve His words. We are also not believing His warnings that there would be false prophets in the latter days. If we believe His words, we will have our spiritual radar on high alert to anything claiming to be “a restoration of the TRUE gospel for these latter days.”
This isn’t a choice between revelation vs. the arguments/reasons of men. It’s a choice between believing Jesus’ words or believing JS. Those who believe Jesus’ words recognize a spiritual counterfeit when we see it.
Michael P said, “Drop the Mormon goggles, and try to view the faiths for what they are.”
How would you suggest we go about “dropping the mormon goggles”? What if I’ve been a member of several other Christian Denominations, and decided to drop the Evangelical goggles? Would that be considered “taking your test”?
Germitto- I’ve yet to see an instance on this blog where the anti- side had the upper hand so much in these physical/scientific areas, instead they went running back to bible proof texts for cover. The Bible isn’t a scientific writ… it’s spiritual. SO if you going running back to the Bible to prove science, you’ll run into another evangelical who reads the same (but different) bible as you and interprets it differently. It’s funny how interpretation and science have both changed over the years…
Falcon- Do you really have Mormon friends? I would say, It comes to a shock for most of our evangelical friends with their limited view and limited experience in the christian community, that Mormons actually believe in revelation. Our revelation however, comes from God, often times through his mouthpiece, the Prophet (Amos 3:7). Other times it comes from local leaders, or it comes as personal revelation. New scripture isn’t “created” as you say… but we believe that God will yet reveal many important things… New to us, but age old by nature.
MichaelP- don’t get frustrated with me, please.
I really mean it- what test do you want me to try? I want to know.
Germit- I have provided on this site (other threads) a very brief list of objective evidences supporting the BOM (hebraisms, chiasmus, geography, etc) that really have not been answered. For example, when I give an example of a very complex chiastic structure in the BOM, the response is that Joseph merely “spoke in Bible talk and the chiasm is a simple result.” Do people understand how crazy that is? It is like saying, well Einstein and his bros just threw some materials together and created the atom bomb.
When I related geographic findings and historical evidences from mesoamerica, people said that since JS had given prophecies that had not been fulfilled, the BOM could be dismissed out of hand.
Yet, when I discuss the real proof of the BOM- the spiritual witness, that is dismissed because “there is no objective evidence.” I listed 24 major prophecies from the BOM that have been fulfilled and the response is that all that can be dismissed due to no geographic evidence. Do you see the problem?
I have appreciated this discussion on the “spiritual” side of things- prayer, revelation, etc. Would enjoy a similarly SUSTAINED discussion of the physical, linguistic evidences.
Keep the faith!
FoF: this is not the thread to get started on the evidences you tout, and I can only give you an assurance of how GERmIT will handle those in the future. If we’re talking physical evidences, I won’t change the topic on you, that’s all I can guarantee. I’m GUESSING that your prophecy list didn’t get much traffic because it was “off topic” for the thread it appeared on, but that’s my faulty memory trying to piece that together, so it’s possible that the ev.’s here (me included) were just slackers. YOU have been pretty good about staying with a topic even when the conversation didn’t seem (to me) to favor you, but I’ve encountered EXACTLY the situation you have described from your LDS friends. I don’t want to beat that into the ground.
My challenge to the ORTHODOX among us is : when that thread comes up (phys evidence for the BofM) give FoF LOTS of what he’s asked for. Thanks, GERMIT
Germit,
I would suggest that our Mormon friends travel over to “The Mormon Curtain” website, hit the index and take a gander. I think I counted 74 entries dealing with the BoM and it’s all from a bunch of exMos. These are take no prisoner types that have lived the life inside the maze and know the twists and turns and aren’t amused.
We’re at about 82 posts here and once again I come to the same conclusion I come to on all of these topics. That is, Mormonism is a religion of its own that has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. The Mormon test for revelation can be boiled down to; pray humbly and sincerely and receive a confirming feeling that the revelation is true. Now the fact that the historical record for Mormon revelation is dubious makes no difference. It’s like evidence dealing with the BoM. Many of our Mormon friends will admit to the contrary evidence but deny the evidence because it comes from man and not from God. You can’t have a rational discussion when someone says they know something is true because God told them so (despite the evidence). Besides that, try to nail down what counts and what doesn’t count as far as revelation is concerned in Mormonism. It counted when the prophet was alive but it doesn’t count now because “there’s so little that we know and God is constantly revealing new information to us.” Huh? OK, it’s their religion. They can do whatever they want. But they need to understand that to us it’s the land of OZ.
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints we believe in revelation from God. We believe in a divine source of truth through living prophets. If we required prophets to be perfect, then we couldn’t believe in that anymore. That would make us just like the rest of Christendom, and we’re just not prepared to go there.
The voices of cynicism not withstanding, we’ll continue to believe, to hope, to have faith and charity. We will continue to believe in a living Christ, in living prophets,in living revelation and in living scripture. Those who seek the same, will flock to our standard. We ARE different. That’s a good thing.
Winter,
Could you unpack the statement, “We believe in a divine source of truth through living prophets. If we required prophets to be perfect, then we couldn’t believe in that anymore.” Does this statement affect his prophecy or not? Are you saying that if his prophecy were perfect you couldn’t believe him, however since it is not you really can believe him?
As for this statement “We will continue to believe in a living Christ, in living prophets,in living revelation and in living scripture.” Your argument seems to suggest that Christians don’t believe in a living Christ, or the bible which is a collection of living revelations as living scripture, this simply isn’t true.
On the upside, I am glad you admit that Christianity and Mormonism are two different things.
Lautensack
JessicaJoy – You suggested that the Bible is sufficient for a complete understanding of the gospel of Christ.
The beginnings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints are rooted in the inability of the extant Christian churches to discern a unity and correctness of faith by an appeal to the Bible. The condition of contradictory doctrine and uncertain authority continues to exist today among hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Christian sects.
Additional, contemporary revelation was and is necessary to restore a pure, divine Christianity. Hence, the Book of Mormon and other scripture from modern prophets. Hence, living prophets on the earth today.
Well so I sit here scratching my head. Mormonism is a better quality religion because it has living prophets that speak the mind of the Mormon god but it doesn’t have to be all that accurate or consistent. Hay, Mormon folks, it’s your religion. If you want to operate that way, have at it. But PLEASE don’t give me attitude. I can sense haughtiness when I read and see it. You folks believe in a guy who used a magic rock to try and fine treasure and when that didn’t work he applied it to religion. His BoM revelation was produced by him putting his magic rock in a hat and then shoving his face in the hat to receive revelation. His revelation has been disproved in countless ways and his religion went way off the tracks of Christianity. BUT it’s your gig. Spare me, if you would, the superior attitude. I think I’d be more embarrassed than proud that I follow a nacromancer with an occult connection than the God of the Bible. Smith’s “revelation” left you with a different God, a different Jesus, a different Spirit and a different plan of salvation. You’ve made your choice and you have a hard time selling it to others without covering up the details.
Falcon- Something snapped to make you write such hateful things. I hope nobody’s offended you. An interesting point in your post is your focus on nothing integral or fundamental to the Mormon faith. That’s okay… that’s all this website is. IT’s a forum for anti- whatevers to come on, toot their horn about a religion that they don’t like. IT’s a forum for people who once participated in the church to say false and ignorant things about the mormon faith. IT’s a forum that is not educational, but hateful in it’s very nature. So please don’t get offended when mormon’s give you their honest thoughts about religion. You asked for it by participating in an anti- website. You sense haughtiness and a superior attitude… yet you ask for responses to your ridiculous claims. Do you want us to bow down and say, “You’re right… I’m sorry!”. Spare me the dramatics, and focus on the important issues.
Reggie, anyone who has been reading at Mormon Coffee for a while knows falcon’s style, which sometimes includes sarcasm and forthright denunciations of various aspects of Mormonism. But going beyond style, you accuse falcon of writing “hateful” things. Would you please identify specific instances of what you deem to be falcon’s hateful comments? If such an attitude has slipped past the moderators, we would like to deal with it. But if your concern consists merely of a dislike for falcon’s style, out of fairness, that should be clarified.
Wow.
FoF, read the transcripts to figure out what test.
Winter, that was an interesting admission. BTW, what specifically is wrong with “the rest of Christendom.”
Reggie, I’ll second Sharon’s motion to determine what’s hateful. Its easy to say something with a broad stroke. Do you care to tell us what specifically is hateful with Falcon?
Thanks.
Yea Reggie,
I do and did snap. To be direct with you, it’s not out of hate. I have a line that I don’t let Mormons cross. They can get their little toesies up to it but when it’s crossed, WAP! I’m just not going to allow what I see as a Mormon attitude of spiritual superiority pass. This attitude comes from a belief by Mormons that they have a living prophet today who is hearing directly from God. This is in contrast, Mormons would say, to the Christian religion that doesn’t have a living prophet hearing from God. So, Mormonism is better, true, and just an all around superior religious trip. Now from my point of view, Mormons don’t have anything to toot Moroni’s horn over when it comes to revelation or the living prophet. Mormonism started with the false revelatory experiences of Joseph Smith. Unless you are totally ignorant of Mormon history, Smith’s techniques of receiving revelation were based in the occult practice of scrying (see the seer stone and second sight phenomenon). Subsequent revelations by Mormon prophets not only lack quality but aren’t even consistent from generation to generation. Not only that, but there are several branches of Mormonism on the scene that claim to have prophets that are hearing directly from the Mormon god. So the Salt Lake City bunch has a lot of competition for the truth of Mormonism even within Mormonism.
So don’t take it personal Reggie. I’m sure the Mormon attitude is cultivated within the Mormon culture. You folks are just a product of it. Just don’t squeal so loud when someone points it out.
Winter,
Yes, we do believe the Bible is sufficient for a complete understanding of the gospel of Christ. “We” meaning all those “hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Christian sects” you mention that happen to agree with each other on the essentials of the gospel as outlined by the Apostle Paul in I Cor. 15.
LDS frequently mention the supposed contradictory doctrines among orthodox Christian churches because this was JS’s claim for why a new religion was necessary. Other religions have been started on the same premise (the Jehovah’s Witnesses for example).
Orthodox Christians might disagree with each other on minor details, but we experience a wide range of fellowship with a variety of denominations. It’s the major, major details (like the the nature of God and the gospel) that separates us from the Mormon and JW religions.
Falcon’s right when he talks about the origins of the Mormon religion. It started in the occult and the similarities in some of the subsequent Mormon doctrines have more in common with Luciferianism than Orthodox Christianity.
“Modern revelation” should not be exactly backwards from previous revelation. If it is, we need to consider that it is coming from another source. The Bible warns us of those who would preach “another gospel” and “another Jesus”
Moroni 10:32 is sufficient for me to believe it’s from another source. Also I Nephi 3:7, 2 Nephi 25:23, Alma 11:37, and D & C 58:42-43. We call this the impossible gospel. The nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the other major dividing line between LDS and “the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of [other] Christian sects.”
More dramatics… and even from our dear moderator, Sharon.
I’ll answer your question (and Falcon’s, and MIchael P’s) with a question… what’s not hateful about what he’s saying? THere’s a very large difference between what somebody says, and how they say it. THere’s a difference between what topics you choose to talk about, and why you choose them. THere’s a difference between trying to educate someone and trying to implicate someone. Once again, the very nature of this website is not to Educate all of those “lost mormons that you’re trying to help”. The way you all speak about the mormon religion is offensive and you know it. Whether you mean to be offensive or not, you know it is. I don’t believe you’re naive to the situation, but rather, I believe you are trying to be deceptive in the things you say. ONce again, not what you say, but how you say it. You guys are the crazy artists who come running into the Emergency Room ready to preform surgery! Why do you think you need to be the ones to educate the world on mormonism? Rhetorical… no need to answer it. I’ve dealt with so many anti’s that the answer is always one of two things… Hate or false love. No one who really loves another person would criticize their religious beliefs the way you all do. Why don’t you spend your time preaching what you believe, instead of what others believe? Rhetorical… I already know your answer…”Because what we believe tells us to help you poor lost souls!”. Spare me the dramatics. You all participate in this website because of hate, not love. Blanket statement or not… the very nature of this website points to that “blanket” so if you don’t want to be included in my comment, maybe you shouldn’t participate in an anti website. Do you honestly think you’re making the world a better place by trying to implicate an entire religion based on how their prophet recieved revelation? Rhetorical… Did every prophet see a burning bush after moses? Rhetorical.
reggiewoodsyall wrote: The way you all speak about the mormon religion is offensive and you know it. Whether you mean to be offensive or not, you know it is. I don’t believe you’re naive to the situation, but rather, I believe you are trying to be deceptive in the things you say.
Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean that we are wrong or speaking in a malicious manner, if offending someone meant we weren’t loving them then apparently Jesus, James, and Paul didn’t love people. (Matt 23, John 6, John 10, Acts 17:22-31, Jas 2:19) The Cross of Christ is offensive. (Gal 5:11) Also please show us where we have lied about your religion or its origin? Perhaps if you could get past your persecution complex you would come to realize that meaningful conversation can be had if we are honest and able to admit the facts.
reggiewoodsyall wrote: Why don’t you spend your time preaching what you believe, instead of what others believe?
Unfortunately your formula is contra scripture. Scripture teaches that we as disciples of Christ are to “destroy speculations, arguments, and every lofty thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God.” (2 Cor 10:5) this includes false religions, preached by false prophets who are wolves in sheep’s clothing bringing a false Christ. (Matt 24:24, cf. Matt 7:15, Mark 13:22, 2 Cor 11) Essentially we are just being biblical, this however in no way means we are doing what we do out of strife or hatred toward the people trapped in Mormonism, rather it is because we love the people.
Finally it seems you have erected a double standard, since your last post was far from what one might call “loving” but you are allowed to do such things since you are defending your church. You call us anti, an offensive title, yet you take offense when we critique your religion. I understand tones can be harsh but as I’ve pointed out Paul was harsh, James was harsh, Jesus was harsh. Does this make them unloving? Think about it.
Lautensack
The topic here is “revelation” and the quotes in the article run contrary to what modern Mormons practice. One of our Mormon participants did the usual Mormon speak regarding we have a prophet, we get revelations, you know the usual motto speak and chants Mormons do. The implication, of course, is that Mormonism is way too hot and Christianity is really so yesterday.
Mormonism was started by a guy who claimed to be a prophet and sported a magic rock in order to obtain revelation. Stop right there! That should be enough for anyone with an ounce of discernment to walk away. Subsequent years brought other prophets to the Mormon cause who also had a miserable track record in their prophetic revelations. It gets way tiresome when our Mormon friends lead with this “we have a living prophet” claim, when the track record of revelation is so miserable that Mormons can’t even clearly differentiate what counts as the real deal and what is Memorex (sorry a saying from the 60s). I would say that the average Biblically based Christian pastor, reveals more of the heart of God in a twenty minute sermon on Sunday, then a Mormon prophet could accidentally swerve into in his entire career.
falcon wrote:
Well so I sit here scratching my head. Mormonism is a better quality religion because it has living prophets that speak the mind of the Mormon god but it doesn’t have to be all that accurate or consistent.
Couldn’t resist this one.
Mormonism is a better quality religion because it does more for it’s active participants to help them accomplish the purpose of life.
Christianity is a poor substitute for religion because it continues to compromise the purpose of life by telling people they don”t have to repent at all. Grace does it all, no repentance needed. Do you know how many lives that teaching has destroyed?
I when to a high school that was 20% LDS. We had a number of Christian religions represented in equal percentages.
The best of the class? Always the Mormons. The virgins that survived till marriage? Always the Mormons. The happiest darn kids at the school? Again, the Mormons.
What did the other Christian denominations do for the rest of the kids? Not much. Their start on life was based on sex, beer and parties. The purpose of their life? To have as much fun as possible.
It was crystal clear to me. Christianity is a failed belief system.
Oh.. and the Mormon God is the true God. The God of Christianity was invented by Greek doctors in the 3rd century. Not a real God at all.
GRCluff wrote: Christianity is a poor substitute for religion because it continues to compromise the purpose of life by telling people they don”t have to repent at all. Grace does it all, no repentance needed. Do you know how many lives that teaching has destroyed?
I’m not sure what form of Christianity you are referring, perhaps some sects of hyper-Calvinism, however this has never been the gospel proclamation of the Wesleyan, Reformed, Lutheran, Calvinistic, or Baptist churches. Rather, the gospel proclamation has been “Repent and believe.” (Mark 1:15) Please don’t confuse this with a works righteousness since repentance is a gift granted by God.(2 Tim 2:25-26) As to how many lives this has destroyed I’d suggest many. The number of Christian martyrs in the year alone
was approximately 171,000, but what does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul. Were their lives destroyed, yes, but they were destroyed for the sake of the gospel. As for the lives destroyed for the false teaching you accuse Christianity of proclaiming I could not tell you. I would say that such a teaching, e.g. continue in your sin and don’t ever repent is equally as dangerous as Mormonism’s teachings about false piety about earning blessings.
As for your comment about God, if you seek to deny scripture, that is fine, however you will not find the Mormon doctrine of God written about YHWH (or Elohim) on the pages of the Bible, though you will find Him called by other names, Baal, Beelzebub, Satan, or perhaps more appropriately the Dragon, Beast, and False Prophet. (Rev 16:13) But fear not, one day your false god will be thrown into the lake of fire prepared for him and his angels. (Rev 19:20; 20:10 cf. Matt 25:41)
Lautensack
Cluff,
I have often been accused of misrepresenting the Mormon position (even though I don’t believe I do). Do you think it’s okay for you to do the same with the Christian position. You said:
“Christianity is a poor substitute for religion because it continues to compromise the purpose of life by telling people they don”t have to repent at all. Grace does it all, no repentance needed. Do you know how many lives that teaching has destroyed?”
And, yet, I might get scolded for even responding to this statement by telling you that you do what you accuse us of doing. Paul was speaking about the Israelites, but we can apply this to the Mormons as well: “…they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law. For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God” (Romans 10:3-4). That is justification by faith. When a person is justified, the work of sanctification begins, and it is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the evidence of this process can be called our works. But, we’ve gone over this before. I would like to suggest that you read Romans 9, 10,and 11.
We preach faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. All these represent our response to God’s grace in our lives. We could never think that we can put God in debt to us based on our good works to the point that He has to respond to us with grace. We respond to His grace, and the empowerment of the Holy Spirit produces good works as evidence and to glorify God. Hope this helps.
Grace and Peace!
Reggie,
Would it be better if we used the words of Jesus and described you as a “brood of vipers”?
Cluff,
So, that the ones with the best grades proves your faith is right? Do you really believe that is a good arbiter of the truth of a religion?
And you continue to misrepresent our faith. I am really starting to get a kick out of this, and all the more see why Falcon writes with such passion. You get so angry when we tell you what it is we see you believe, and you turn around and do the exact same thing. Friend, this is hypocrisy, a double standard. It shows shallowness and blindness. You love to spout how folks are to remove the log from their own eye before picking out the splinter in another’s eye.
To not be guilty of this, you’ve got two options (well three)– 1) stop your complaining when we point out aspect of your faith that we observe, with myriad of quotes from your leaders, like Mr. Canon in this thread. 2) start trying to understand our faith, like you want us to do. And the third is to avoid discussion.
The message Mr. Canon gave was that if you listen to your leaders, you’ll be A-OK. But the question is, can you trust the leaders? That they got the best grades doesn’t mean that they have the truth. It means that that they studied the hardest.
My old pastor was a drug addict (Lon Solomon). Another was a jerk who forced his girlfriend into several abortions (Ken Baugh). Many were heathens and disgusting people before coming to Christ. If you look at the fruit they’ve produced, I have no problem listening to them, despite that they were not “the happiest darn kids in school.” You know why? What they say can be backed up by the Bible, and what they do now speaks volumes.
Do want want to know what they know? Do you believe that folks with pasts like that can turn around and live the lives they do without Mormonism?
Cluff writes: I went to a high school that was 20% LDS. We had a number of Christian religions represented in equal percentages.The best of the class? Always the Mormons. The virgins that survived till marriage? Always the Mormons. The happiest darn kids at the school? Again, the Mormons.
So, Cluff, how many was that, 10 people? Is that also from your perspective? I won’t even tell you what the boys use to say about the mormon girls? Let’s just say some got married in the nick of time. But maybe that was because there were more mormons here than where you went to school. So because 20% seemed to keep it together, what does that prove? I would also guess that you were ONLY in contact with those precious 20%, so I can’t take much stock in your opinions of how the real Christians lived.