Isn’t this America?

Meridian Magazine, billing itself as “The Place Where Latter-day Saints Gather,” recently ran an article written by reader Michelle Worley. Titled “Standing Up for Prop 8: ‘I Hope You Know We’re Not Haters,'” the article recounts Ms. Worley’s experience standing at a busy intersection holding a sign in support of the California marriage amendment.

Encountering people on both sides of the Prop 8 issue, Ms. Worley enjoyed encouragement and endured criticism. Some people booed her, some yelled at her, some challenged her. A group of men surrounded her and “flood[ed] the air with crude and derogatory statements.” Many people misunderstood Ms. Worley’s motivation for holding her sign and for standing strong for traditional marriage. One man, carrying a sign against Prop 8, shouted, “Haters! Bigots!”

Ms. Worley was understandably distressed over this and other encounters with people who disagreed with her own convictions, yet her story has a happy ending. She was able to make peace with the name-caller, telling him, “I hope you know we’re not haters.”

As she chatted with the same-gender marriage supporter Ms. Worley said, “Isn’t it wonderful that we can stand here holding our signs with different opinions, peacefully? This is so America!”

When I read this I couldn’t help but think of my own experiences holding signs. Though I have not held signs in support of California’s Prop 8, I have held signs that promote the MRM web site or quote a Bible verse (e.g., Isaiah 43:10). Opposition to my exercise of this basic First Amendment right is always pretty fierce.

While many people show support for my efforts, and many who disagree with my convictions remain civil (i.e., ignore me), I’ve encountered countless Mormons who respond with name-calling, mischaracterization of my motives, and/or who surround me while “flooding the air with crude and derogatory statements.”

I’ve grown accustomed to this treatment and recognize that it goes with the territory of standing for something. But it still bothers me that Mormons believe, accuse me of, and publicly promote the idea that I am a “hater” and a “bigot.” It bothers me that it is so often impossible for Mormons, holding to and expressing their opinions which differ from mine, to stand peacefully on the same corner with me. Isn’t this America?

As she related her story, Ms. Worley expressed the fact that she has great compassion for those who are personally affected by the issue addressed by Prop 8. Likewise, all of us at MRM have great compassion for those personally affected by Mormonism. There will always be those who cannot be convinced of our true concern and motivation, but perhaps the Latter-day Saints who have now, in one sense, walked in our shoes will recognize the fact that standing for an unpopular cause does not equal hate.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Friendship, Interaction, and Evangelism. Bookmark the permalink.

42 Responses to Isn’t this America?

  1. jackg says:

    Sharon,

    Great post. My 22-yr-old RM son once said to me: “I just hope you don’t turn into one of those people carrying signs at general conference.”

    I remember when Spencer Kimball was at the Rose Bowl for an area conference (can’t remember the year but I was in H.S.). My dad and I sang in the choir, and there were people with signs and bull horns, etc. I remember some of the Church members getting angry and responding to the sign-carriers with aggressiveness and questionable language–despite the fact that we were advised by Church leaders prior to the conference that there would be anti——- protesters, and that we were to ignore them, not confront them.

    I say this because I believe a sincere, faith-following Mormon will respect others’ opinions. There will be those who have personal character issues that have nothing to do with the fact that they’re Mormons. And, I’m certain, there are Mormons whose behaviors in such instances even embarrass other Mormons.

    Understandably, I have not stood in your shoes with signs, so perhaps I am totally naive to what is happening and by how many people. With that said, I agree 100% with your focus in this post that even though we speak out against the Mormon Church, our motives are generated in our love for Jesus Christ and the desire we have for the Mormons to come to a true understanding and experience of God’s grace in their lives, and that we have the freedom of speech to express the differences between Mormonism and Christianity in the same way Mormons can express their opinions that contradict ours. (Hope this made sense.)

    Grace and Peace!

    Grace and Peace!

  2. Sharon,
    Once again, great post! I had a similar experience a little over a week ago. The next time a Mormon gives me trouble over evangelism at public Mormon event, I’ll point out that they really do not believe in their 11th article of faith. You can read about my experience here.
    http://evidenceministries.blogspot.com/2008/10/article-11.html

  3. winter says:

    Disciples of Christ who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, the several million of them, profess to an individual in the divine Son ship of our Saviour, Jesus Christ and His role as our personal Saviour. Times too many to count I have seen members – even whole congregations – moved to tears, speechless in their experience of the grace of Christ.

    Why do so many in these posts feel it necessary to try to degrade the genuine spiritual experience of the millions of Christian saints in the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS?

    You don’t know us.

  4. jackg says:

    Winter,

    You ask a fair question. Mormons are indeed experiencing God’s grace, and we call that prevenient grace. It’s the grace that comes before saving grace. God’s whole purpose is to woo us to Him. So, even though Mormons are experiencing God’s grace, in our view, they have not yet experienced saving grace because we believe Mormonism to be a false religion that teaches a different Jesus than revealed in the Bible. I know you don’t agree with this, but I am just trying to answer your question in a straightforward manner. Its just that when we start talking about being “saved” by grace, that’s a whole different ballgame.

    Now, I must ask you a similar question (and I hope you actually respond to a specific question this time; thus far, you have not shown an interest to engage in dialogue but merely to express your opinion): why do so many Mormons degrade the genuine Christian spiritual experiences that lead us to conclude that JS was a false prophet and that the Mormon Church is not the true Church but a false church? I think this is fair.

    Grace and Peace!

  5. Winter, do you think it was wrong for people in the Old Testament to critically engage the spiritually experiences of the worshipers of Baal?

  6. JesusFreek says:

    Winter:

    Many of us pray for the souls of our LDS friends every day. We do not believe the LDS “spiritual experience” is genuine. In fact we believe the saving grace of the LDS Jesus isn’t sufficient to save your soul.

    If I saw a child playing on the train tracks with the train quickly approaching, would it be proper for me to run to him screaming about his fate? I want to run to every LDS person I see and give them the gospel. Is that hateful? Is that unloving?

    2 Cor. 11, 3-4: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

  7. GB says:

    What?

    Not even an acknowledgment that my post was deleted?

    I can see why Mormons don’t stay around here for very long. It is hard to take all of the “love” shown here. And the “even” handed treatment.

    [GB, Your comment did not pass moderation because it did not conform to the comment policy which requires a summary of arguments (in your own words) for any web site you wish to link to (three, in the case of your comment). You also neglected to “contribute satisfactory substance” to the discussion (the complete text of your comment consisting of “Ah, can you just feel the love?”). Therefore, following the consequence stated in our comment policy, it was “deleted without warning.” Please review the comment policy for more information. -Mod]

    And as far as Isaiah 43:10 is concerned, is ” . . . Before me no god was formed,. . .” an admission that He was the first God formed?

  8. JesusFreek says:

    GB: You forgot “… nor shall there be any after me.”

    Looks like either the Bible is right, or Mormonism is right. Now is the day to choose your path. Jesus, or Joseph? Where will each road take you?

  9. GB says:

    Freek,

    You failed to answer my question.

    Is ” . . . Before me no god was formed,. . .” an admission that He was the first God formed?

    Now that you bring it up.
    Are you saying that there is an “after” God?

    Does this mean that He isn’t eternal?

    Is there a “before” God also?

    If there were no gods formed before God existed nor after He no longer exists, doesn’t that mean that there could be gods formed in between those two points?

    Ah, Freek,
    Just more false dichotomies. The premise of your questions is faulty.

    Cheers!!

  10. Arthur Sido says:

    GB,

    “And as far as Isaiah 43:10 is concerned, is ” . . . Before me no god was formed,. . .” an admission that He was the first God formed?”

    No it is a declaration of God’s uniqueness, that He is God and there is no other.

    To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him. (Deuteronomy 4:35)

    that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other. (1 Kings 8:60)

    I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, (Isaiah 45:5)

    Seems pretty straightforward, dontcha think?

  11. JesusFreek says:

    GB:

    You must have trouble reading “flowery” language. If no god was formed before, and no god was formed after doesn’t that simply indicate God is unique and no other gods were formed ever?

    Please don’t take God’s word out of context. I remember when I studied the bible in the LDS faith we would read what we wanted to hear and cross reference back to the D&C, JST, BOM, etc. You need to read the entire passage. Your not only chopping apart a passage, your chopping apart a single verse. This is a stretch even by LDS interpetation. Please read the entire verse again.

    Not only does the bible teach of one God, so does the book of Mormon.

    Alma 11:26-28: And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.

    The “Testimony of the Three Witnesses” that appears in the Preface to the Book of Mormon supports such a monotheistic interpretation. It concludes with the statement, “And honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.”

    Additional statements in LDS Scripture saying that Christ was God are in the LDS Pearl of Great Price, Book of Moses 1:6: And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of my Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. Moses 2:1: I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest. Mosiah 15:1-3: And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down…

  12. winter says:

    JesusFreek: “We do not believe the LDS “spiritual experience” is genuine.”

    Well, JF, I can speak for myself. How would YOU know anything about MY spiritual experience!?

    Certain people on this site seem to think that the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS and it’s members can’t speak for themselves.

    It’s like the Ford dealer telling you that the Dodge dealer doesn’t know his own cars, but that you have to listen to the Ford dealer to get the real scoop on a Dodge.

    If there happens to be anyone who wonders about the trustworthiness of information from naysayers on the is site, I’d suggest you choose a central topic, (e.g. “Are Mormons Christians”), then visit the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS and see what it says. Then check and compare what is said on this site. Draw your own conclusions.

    For me, I know Jesus Christ – I know that I know Him. I don’t find in necessary to degrade anyone else’s experience to verify my own.

  13. Lautensack says:

    Winter wrote: I can speak for myself. How would YOU know anything about MY spiritual experience!
    Winter I totally agree, I don’t know what it is you experienced during your spiritual experience. That being said would it also be safe to say that while spiritual experiences might be wonderful, they are not self authenticating? Would an inappropriate spiritual experience be just as possible as an appropriate one? People all over the world might have spiritual experiences with the one and only true God, however we presume far to much if we believe He is the only spiritual being with whom people have experiences.

    Also I agree with you check out what Mormonism is really about, but don’t do it through their public relations office, that would be silly, of course they are going to make the LDS religion look like the best thing since sliced bread. Instead I’d suggest picking up a quad, Spencer W. Kimball’s “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”, and Joseph Fielding Smith’s “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”

    Winter wrote: For me, I know Jesus Christ – I know that I know Him. I don’t find in necessary to degrade anyone else’s experience to verify my own.
    Unfortunately your view is not biblical. While I will agree that you have had an experience, your experience is an imagination. A high and lofty thing that has built itself up against the knowledge of God and as such must be cast down. (2 Cor 10:5)

    Lautensack

  14. winter says:

    I want to assure people that answers to prayer can be trusted. People who say that you can pray to God and receive a trusted answer, are the people who can lead you to God.

    Anyone who tells you that you cannot pray to God and trust His answer, is a person who will lead you away from God.

    People who say that you cannot receive a divine revelation, are not the people who should be listened to when you seek to learn of divine things.

  15. JesusFreek says:

    Winter:

    If God spoke to you personally and his words contradicted Mormonism who would you believe? I believe that God has spoken to you! He spoke to you directly in his Word (the bible). His words contradict mormonism. Before you say, “We believe the bible has been corrupted.” Please research that statement yourself. The bible is reliable and very well preserved.

    So ultimately you will need to make a choice. You can follow “a church”, and continue to read only its official statements. Or you can begin developing your own faith based on all of the information.

    If you wanted to learn about Hitler would you only read information from Mein Kamph?

    Your own eternal destiny might be at risk. It is worth trusting your heart? Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?”

  16. JesusFreek says:

    Winter… One more thing…

    If a Muslim came to you and told you that he had prayed to God and received an answer that his faith is true, would you be willing to pray and ask God of the Koran is true? What if you received an answer that it is true (as many Muslims undoubtedly have) would you convert?

  17. faithoffathers says:

    “For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.” 2 Ne 32:8

    “For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
    For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.” Moroni 7:15-16

    Winter- You and I believe absolutely in the authenticity of revelation and the capacity for EVERY soul to receive answers that stand on their own! The folks here believe differently, and that is OK. They believe every answer to prayer must be compared to the Bible. But the fact that the Bible is open to interepretation can confuse the equation. You and I know that modern revelation is perfectly consistent with the Bible, they do not. It is as if the Spirit of God cannot completely be trusted. I say the Spirit of God is to be trusted more than any other thing.

  18. Lautensack says:

    Winter, I’m not sure but I think your last comment might have been directed at my critique of your spiritual experience. I must disagree with your premise though, your premise seems to be that if you ask God anything He is the only one who can answer it. If such were the case why would Paul and John warn against trusting spirits but instead to test them. Now I am not saying that God does not communicate with all his fold through prayer. What I am saying is that we should at least be biblical and test all spirits in the light and through the lens of scripture. (1 Thes 5:21; 1 John 4:1)

    Lautensack

  19. Michael P says:

    Winter and Fof,

    Prayer can be answered, and the Bible is open to interpretation, but so can answers to prayer.

    Does God always explicitly answer them? I would you’ll say no, at which point you should understand the trouble with your position.

    I don’t mean to distract the topic, as this has been discussed extensively in another thread (and FoF you never replied to the ‘test’ I set forth). On this topic, you are free to believe what you want– this is America, after all.

    But believing what you want should not free you from criticism. Nor should it us.

    Those who are critical are not acting out of hate. Some might be mislead, but others have legitimate points to make. And they ought to be free to express the criticims, legitimate or not. It is this exchange of ideas that causes one to grow, and what should be understood by the protection of free speech.

  20. GB says:

    Sido, Freek, Sack,

    Thank you for your “love” bombs. I can just feel the love emanating from your posts. It is the same kind of “love” that emanates from the protesters outside of the Conferences in SLC.

    One of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is to “whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them”.

    I really wonder if you would want loud and belligerent protesters outside your assemblies.

    Somehow I doubt it.

    Freek : If no god was formed before, and no god was formed after doesn’t that simply indicate God is unique and no other gods were formed ever?

    GB: No! It is simply an indication of the preeminence of God not the exclusivity. As the Bible teaches. 1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether IN HEAVEN or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
    Again, a statement of PREEMINENCE not exclusivity. (also notice the separation of being of the Father from the Son).

    F: Not only does the bible teach of one God, so does the book of Mormon.

    GB: You forgot a few. What you fail to comprehend is that the one God is multiple beings. Jesus the preeminent prophet taught the separation of beings very clearly.
    Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •
    45 That ye may be the children of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    • • •
    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN is perfect.

    Matt. 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •

    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, Hallowed be thy name.

  21. GB says:

    Matt. 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN give good things to them that ask him?
    • • •
    21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Matt. 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Matt. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.
    • • •
    14 Even so it is not the will of your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, that one of these little ones should perish.
    • • •
    19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your FATHER, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

    John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT HIM.
    • • •
    30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME.
    • • •
    36 ¶ But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that THE FATHER HATH SENT ME.

  22. GB says:

    37 And THE FATHER HIMSELF, WHICH HATH SENT ME, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
    John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the FATHER THAT SENT ME.
    • • •
    18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the FATHER THAT SENT ME beareth witness of me.
    • • •
    42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but HE SENT ME.
    John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will WHICH HATH SENT ME, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    • • •
    44 No man can come to me, except the FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    • • •
    57 As the living FATHER HATH SENT ME, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
    John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that THOU HAST SENT ME.
    • • •
    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that THOU HAST SENT ME.
    John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the FATHER WHICH SENT ME, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the FATHER’S WHICH SENT ME.
    John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as MY FATHER HATH SENT ME, even so send I you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
    John 16:28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    Jesus clearly taught that He is a separate being from the Father. Do you believe Jesus?

  23. mantis mutu says:

    Holy Wolfpack on poor Winter,

    If there were ever posts to be deleted for lack of substance and pertinence it should be these last few. Surely there exists no ethnic bias dictating this forum.

    Sharon, please feel free to wake from your provincial trance and accept that your “Mormon” nemesis contingent is simply following more or less the same course as you would in their shoes. You engage them with accusations (many wrongful); they return volley. Personally, I know many Mormons and Evangelicals who are head and shoulders above you and your nemesis crowd.

    As for the arrogance levied against Winter: Please guys, get a life. The Christian message of truth that some of us Mormon have witnessed for ourselves and are eager to share with our fellow Christians is this:

    The Father revealed himself together with his Son as a distinct entity. Their oneness is something that we can all one day abide in. No complicated philosophical formula needed. One God, One Father, One Son, One Church, One people, One heart. Feel free to join any time you’d like. We certainly aren’t perfect, but we pledge that as our faith-sought goal. The Son committed us to nothing less.

    The Bible, true to its own word, was never intended to serve as a seal to Christ and his Apostles. Such belief led to the dark ages of Christianity. And for all the light the Reformation brought, it was not the kind of light to squelch the darkness. God has again called Apostles and Prophets, and leads his Church by them through his Holy Spirit.

    The Son completed his ministry in Jerusalem by revealing his glorified fullness to the scattered house of Israel throughout the world. Through modern prophecy from God we have one branch’s witness of the Son to join the Jewish branch’s witness found in the Bible. And we will yet have the witness of all the scattered branches of Israel. According to our faithfulness.

    Listen, read, and pray. That’s all I ask. There’s really no room for accusations.

    In Jesus Christ, sincerely.

  24. germit says:

    Winter and others: Lautensack said it well a few posts above, but I’ll burn a post to repeat the gist of it: christians very much believe in answered prayer, the power of the Holy Ghost, and current revelation. We believe in a God WHO has NOT fallent silent.

    To repeat the BIG IDEA: EVERYTHING gets tested against the Word of God so we are not misled (even by our own corrupted heart, Jer 17:9) which EASILY happens when we give up our ‘plumbline’. It’s the foolish person who holds up their own, subjective experience above such accountability, or who’s interpretation plainly runs against the clear meaning of scripture (and the LDS have LOTS of company in this boat, Eckhart Tolle comes to mind and a host of NEW AGE others). No one is doubting that such experiences are NOT GENUINE, we doubt for SCRIPTURAL reasons that they are NOT OF GOD.
    Heartfelt, sincere, and quite possibly SUPERNATURAL, but NOT OF GOD. And I don’t have to know Eckhart Tolle, or Bishop Winter ,personally, to weigh in on that IF I understand their position on the key orthodox christian truths, as explained clearly by the Bible. Anyone who will not allow their teaching, experience, or positions to be seen thru the light of Scripture is a likely candidate for heresy. GERmIT

  25. germit says:

    CLEANUP: I meant to type “we doubt that that they (those experiences) ARE of God”…. too many negatives in the same sentence….sorry

    Also forgot to repeat 1stTHess 5:21,22
    “examine EVERYTHING CAREFULLY, hold fast to that which is good, abstain from every form of evil”

    You cant’t do the ‘holding fast’ and ‘abstaining’ parts if you don’t do the examining part (in the light of something bigger and brighter than your own feeble experience or even conscience).

    Mantis: we agree to disagree on what led to the Dark Ages, and we probably even disagree as to how ‘dark’ they really were. We also disagree about the SCOPE of Jesus’ message and mission in the New TEstament era, but that deserves a thread of its own. GERMIT

  26. mantis mutu says:

    Germit,

    The last I checked, my “personal experiences” with the Holy Spirit were backed by the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Lord’s modern revelations to the Church, and above all, the holy ordinances and covenants of Christ.

    I–for one Mormon Christian–may be delusional, but I am hardly alone with my “personal (spiritual) experiences.” I–again, for one Mormon Christian–have never found my spiritual experiences to be revolutionary among my congregation of brothers and sisters. But what I have been mystified by is the various polemical Protestant interpretations, exaggerations and over-simplifications of my own personal experiences that I’ve received over the years.

    They always seem to have the advantage of knowing what I’ve “really” experienced. Whatever the fault of my Mormon comrades, I am glad that their theology and Christology keeps them from judging the faith and experiences of their Protestant counterparts in like manner.

    For me, essential faith in Jesus Christ is knowing that one day–regardless of religious belief–we will all stand on equal footing before the Father and Son in judgment. Judgment itself is what will ultimately set us apart.

    Sincerely,
    mutu.

  27. Jeffrey says:

    I want to repeat what Germit said as its been frustrating listening to the LDS on this blog come off with the idea that we discredit receiving spiritual witness from the Holy Spirit

    “To repeat the BIG IDEA: EVERYTHING gets tested against the Word of God so we are not misled (even by our own corrupted heart, Jer 17:9) which EASILY happens when we give up our ‘plumbline’. It’s the foolish person who holds up their own, subjective experience above such accountability, or who’s interpretation plainly runs against the clear meaning of scripture (and the LDS have LOTS of company in this boat, Eckhart Tolle comes to mind and a host of NEW AGE others). No one is doubting that such experiences are NOT GENUINE, we doubt for SCRIPTURAL reasons that they are NOT OF GOD.”

    Presenting subjective evidence to try and “prove” ones point, only proves it to themselves. It does nothing other than affirm that which you already believe.

    There is no checks and balances in Mormonism when it comes to this. You felt wonderful and tingly all over, great! Newflash – so does the countless other people who prescribe to countless other faiths – So does the FLDS and RLDS membership, so does the terrorist when he prays about bombing innocents. It all feels right to them because they don’t check in with God’s divine words.

    It’s not that prayer isn’t a viable source for wisdom and/or knowledge (note that Wisdom is not the same thing as knowledge), its just that it must be tested, as the scriptures themselves advise us to do.

    The reason us “haters” are so baffled by Mormon thought processes is because LDS authority has been shown time and time again to contradict one another and the lay member just brushes it off. There’s zero accountability. God gave us hearts so that we may feel the love of Christ, but remember, he also gave us brains to keep our hearts out of trouble. Have you ever had a strong positive feeling about something/someone and it/they turned out to be wrong?

  28. JesusFreek says:

    GB:

    I understand the LDS concept of the “Godhead” of three persons, rather than the Trinity. Do you understand that all accepted denominations of Christianity deny your concept of multiple Gods? Do you understand that this is a major theological issue that seperates Mormonmism drastically from Christianity?

    The book of John states the following: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made…. 8 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him… 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    Jesus is eternally God. In the beginning was the Word.

    Whenever the beginning was, wherever it was, whatever it might have been, Jesus – the Word – was already there. He had no beginning and he has no end. He is eternally God.

    Jesus is equally God. …and the Word was with God…
    Jesus, the Word, was with God – equal to the Father and the Spirit…

    Jesus is essentially God. …and the Word WAS God.
    In his very essence, Jesus is God.

    The Gnostics denied this, and their heresy is still alive and well today. Every cult stems from Gnosticism and every cult denies that Jesus Christ is God. The Mormon faith denies it. The LDS faith says that Son of God is not equal with God. Rather, they maintain he is merely the offspring of God…

    Can’t you see the belittling effect this has on Jesus? If he is simply a man, and God is simply an exhalted man… These guys are wimps. The real God is so awesome we can’t even comprehend him. The bible says that God fills the entire universe! How can he do this if he is simply an exhalted man? My God was never a man, he was never equal to me. To say so is unbiblical, heretical, and unacceptable.

  29. germit says:

    Mantis: you wrote

    The last I checked, my “personal experiences” with the Holy Spirit were backed by the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Lord’s modern revelations to the Church, and above all, the holy ordinances and covenants of Christ.

    And this is a very straightforward statement that can be examined by anyone, even if they don’t know you personally or deeply. What’s needed is a knowledge of those things that YOU SAY are in agreement. I don’t need to crawl inside your experience: your claim (similar to what FoF and others have said) is that the Bible, the BofM and other LDS scriptures, and the words of the prophets , past and present, hold together in harmony. This claim can be examined with adequate knowledge of those sources, and (hold your ears, nose , and mouth) EVEN BY A NON_BELIEVER…. at least that’s MY claim. If there is BIG DISAGREEMENT in your list, then your experience, while genuine and heartfelt, doesn’t mean that much to me: it’s your ‘agreement with ….’ claim that matters. And you will continue to hear from us when we can show that your claim is false. Eckhart T. has MILLIONS (for now) of followers who have been told that their path agrees thoroughly with the Bible. Their experiece tells them it’s so….are they right also?? How would I know, one way or another??
    AS for judging us in like manner, your version of ‘hell’, for all PRACTICAL purposes seems to be the 3rd and lowest heaven. That’s still a judgement, and maybe a correst one, we’ll see, but don’t pretend that our side is the only one making a judgement, that is just not the case. (re-visit the ‘lipstick lady’ thread for a fuller treatment of that topic)
    I don’t mind the judgment thing, it’s pretending that you DON”T that gets me going a little bit.

  30. SteveH says:

    Jeffrey, Germit, JesusFreek and other sola scriptura fanatics the fallacy of your argument that “the Big Idea: Everything gets tested against the Word of God” is that you discount the witness of the Holy Ghost. Rather rely on your own interpretation of revelation. In other words you are telling God to shut up.

    To illustrate, consider the example of Simon Barjona (the Apostle Peter) who recognized the divinity of Christ not through reasoning with the scriptures but through the witness of the Holy Ghost. Indeed, Christ was rejected by the religionists of his day precisely because they were so caught up in their flawed interpretation of the words of the prophets and could not see that jesus was indeed the promised Messiah.

    Likewise, if Saul of Tarsus (the Apostle Paul) had followed your flawed methodology of relying solely on scriptural interpretation he would have disregarded his personal spiritual experience of seeing Jesus Christ as being merely a subjective experience not to be trusted and therefore “Not of God”.

    The heart and soul of Mormonism is modern revelation. Simply put – God communicating directly with the individual through a myriad of ways (ministering of angels, visions, visitations, the audible voice of God, dreams, promptings of the spirit etc.).

    This direct personal revelation is what converts the individual and what constitutes a personal testimony of the truthfulness of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The concept of direct revelation from God is something that will never be understood by the world and never accepted.

  31. mantis mutu says:

    GB: I would contend that your God is beyond loving you. If you don’t believe me, trying getting teary-eyed over the next ant mound you accidentally step on. They will never be your heir, simply because they never can be your heir. You are a human; they are mere ants. I truly wish you could see better.

    You might find it surprising that I am well aware of what John said of Jesus’ pre-mortal life and reign with the Father. I’m also not mystified by how Christ’s Godhood still required of him to be sacrificed for our sins. Mormons believe Jesus was the perfect exemplar of faith and righteousness—not because it was his inevitable nature as endless God—but because he chose to be faithful to his Father out of love. He was not against referring to the Father as the Father of both him AND us. And Paul assured us we would be his fellow, equal heirs if we proved faithful. Just as John’s record of Jesus assures that we can be ONE with the Father just as he is ONE with the Father. He is not forever incomprehensible to the faithful. And neither is his love.

    As for your over-simplification of the “Gnostics” (incidentally, a distinction and designation of modern scholarship), I suggest you read Rethinking “Gnosticism”: An Argument for Dismantling a Dubious Category by Michael Williams. Many modern scholars believe that the early Christians of the demiurgical myths (the “Gnostics”) were among the first to adopt a fully immaterial conception of the Father—and move Judaic theology fully into the court of Platonic philosophy. It appears from the extant “Gnostic” sources that “orthodox” Trinitarianism was hardly a fresh development in that regard. One things for sure: the “Gnostics’” vision of God is much closer to classical Christianity’s vision (and continued vision) than to Joseph Smith’s vision.

    If Christianity could simply accept the literal Father and literal Son again! Back when there was not need to parity “God the Father” with the extrabiblical “God the Son.”

  32. Jeffrey says:

    Steve,

    I can see where you might think we discount the witness of the Holy Ghost, but you seem to have a misunderstanding about something here.

    I could suggest you discount the Word of God.

    When we receive spiritual witness/revelation, we check to see if that has been covered and/or is in line with what God’s word has already said.

    I don’t know how much more “modern revelation” you need than what is said in John 3:16. I hardly consider the proclamation to the family as prophetic. It just has some good advice. You don’t need to be a president of a church to give that kind of advice/warning.

    That kind of advice can even be given as “wisdom” (James 1:5) through prayer to God. I strive daily to pray to God and ask him to help me improve as a Father, Husband, Son, Sibling.

    to be continued…

  33. Jeffrey says:

    Steve, you gave the illustration of the apostle Peter.

    Let me show you the difference between Jesus Christ, and Jospeh Smith.

    Jesus showed up and was a man of his word. Sinless, performed miracles, showed unbelievable grace. What he said, came true, without fail.

    Now, taking a look at Joseph Smith’s history – failed prophecy, involvement in the occult, etc..(which you can scroll the article after article on this blog)..

    Do you see why we have a hard time believing Joseph Smith and his subsequent cronies?

  34. SteveH says:

    [Comment deleted.]

  35. Lautensack says:

    My question that I posted earlier today has basically been glossed over in a flame fest so I will repost it here. Would it be safe to say that while spiritual experiences might be wonderful, they are not self authenticating? Would an inappropriate spiritual experience be just as possible as an appropriate one?

    Now before you aim your “he hates Mormons” cannons at me think about it, would you accept a Muslim’s spiritual experience which confirms Allah is the One true God and Mohammad is his prophet, as being from God even though that stands in direct opposition to the teachings of your church? Could you also accept the spiritual experience of a theistic satanist who worships the devil as the true God and sees YHWH as a false God, as being from God? Or perhaps on a different level, could a wonderful experience of a sin be accepted as a good, true, and God blessed experience in light of what your church teaches about sin?

    Lautensack

  36. SteveH says:

    Jeffrey – to respond to your comments, it seems that many of the false accusations fired at Joseph Smith by Evangelicals are similar to those leveled against Jesus Christ by the Evangelicals of his day (Pharisees and Sadducees) i.e. being involved in the occult, being grossly immoral, deceiving people with false teachings, preaching a different “God”, committing blaspheme, etc.

    See Luke 7: 33-34
    For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
    The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
    Or see John 10:20
    And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

    Do you see why the Pharisees and Sadducees found it so difficult to accept Jesus as their promised Messiah?

    Lautensack- to address the fallacy of your argument that spiritual experiences cannot be trusted I would point out that all scripture are received as revelation from God to man via the intermediary of a prophet having a spiritual experience (receiving revelation).

    Therefore, by extension of your argument all scripture must be disregarded as not being self-authenticating because they are all the products of spiritual experiences. Clearly your argument is illogical.

  37. jackg says:

    I find it interesting that Winter never answers any questions I ask. So, I’ll try again: why do so many Mormons degrade the genuine Christian spiritual experiences that lead us to conclude that JS was a false prophet and that the Mormon Church is not the true Church but a false church? I think this is fair.

    FOF,

    You said: “Winter- You and I believe absolutely in the authenticity of revelation and the capacity for EVERY soul to receive answers that stand on their own!”

    Does standing on their own mean that they do not have to align with the Bible? Again, it seems that Mormonism does its best to relegate the Bible to a document barely worthy of acknowledgment. I just can’t understand why Mormons think this is okay. This should be a red flag that JS was making things up as he went. But, it’s your prerogative to deny the truthfulness of the Bible. After all, people are receiving different answers to prayers. God’s answers to me point me to the Bible and away from BOM. Are you going to tell me that I am not hearing right, or hearing what I want to hear? I’m really interested in your response to this. And not just you, FOF. I’m interested in what any Mormon has to say regarding this question.

  38. SteveH says:

    Jackg – could you specify “genuine Christian spiritual experiences”.
    You are arguing from a particular interpretation (neo-Calvinist) of the scriptures.

    Consider the case of the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus. Clearly his spiritual experience of seeing Christ does not align with the Jewish interpretation of the scriptures. Nevertheless, Paul knew that he saw Christ notwithstanding the variance of his personal experience with that of the Jewish interpretation of who and what the Messiah is.

    This variance with religious orthodoxy does not invalidate his personal spiritual experience but rather points out the error of the existing religious orthodoxy.

  39. Lautensack says:

    SteveH wrote: Therefore, by extension of your argument all scripture must be disregarded as not being self-authenticating because they are all the products of spiritual experiences. Clearly your argument is illogical.
    Not at all, while yes no prophecy of scripture came from mans own will but as he was carried along by the spirit, the difference being the entire nation of Israel saw God speak at Sinai, over 500 people saw Jesus raised from the dead, the scriptures were rooted reality which is why the New Testament writers were so obsessed with them. Also God does give tests for prophets in Deuteronomy 13, so it’s not like this is something new that John and Paul are making up.
    Furthermore to follow your position to its extension you would have to submit that the spiritual experience of a Mormon and the spiritual experience of a theistic satanist and the spiritual experience of a Muslim and the spiritual experience of a Buddhist and the spiritual experience of an Orthodox Christian are all experiences with the same God and equally valid. If not then why do certain spiritual experiences take president over other spiritual experiences? Remember an appeal to the scriptures is not valid since those are simply spiritual experiences.
    Perhaps another way, I take two Mormons and ask them to pray to God about God the Father sinning. One comes back and says “God the Father never sinned in His life as a man, as Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet of the Lord, I testify that this is the truth.” The other then comes back, not knowing the answer of the first, and says “God the Father was a sinner just like you and me, as Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet of the Lord, I testify that this is the truth.” Which one did God lie to, or is there any way to determine which one is correct?

    Lautensack

    P.S. Please not I am not trying to discuss if God the Father was a sinner I am simply using the question.

  40. GB says:

    Freek: Do you understand that all accepted denominations of Christianity deny your concept of multiple Gods?

    GB: Circular logic. You define Christianity as only those who accept the doctrine of the trinity, rather than the true definition as found in the English dictionary. And then you say Mormons aren’t Christians.
    F: Do you understand that this is a major theological issue that seperates Mormonmism drastically from Christianity?

    GB: A rather inaccurate statement!!! There are major theological differences between traditional orthodox protestant Christianity. There fixed it for you.

    F: The book of John states the following: 1 In the beginning was the Word, . . .

    GB: So Jesus (one being) was in the beginning. On this we can agree. But I would ask “the beginning of what?”

    F: . . .and the Word was with God,. . .

    GB: So in the beginning Jesus (one being) was with God (another being). On this we can agree.

    F: . . . and the Word was God.

    GB: So Jesus was also God, on this we can agree.

    F: 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    GB: Yes Jesus (one being) was in the beginning with God (another being).

    F: 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made….

    GB: Everything (physical) that was made, was made by Jesus. The things that pre-existed weren’t made by Jesus.
    F: He (Jesus) is eternally God.
    GB: Please provide chapter and verse for that one.

    F: Jesus is equally God. … and the Word was with God…
    Jesus, the Word, was with God – equal to the Father and the Spirit…

    GB: Jesus disagrees with you!!! John 10:29 MY FATHER, which gave them me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
    John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.
    F: In his very essence, Jesus is God.

    GB: Agreed.

    F: The Mormon faith denies it.

    GB: An obvious FALSEHOOD.

  41. GB says:

    F: The LDS faith says that Son of God is not equal with God. Rather, they maintain he is merely the offspring of God…

    GB: Just taking Jesus at His word.

    F: Can’t you see the belittling effect this has on Jesus?

    GB: I am sure Jesus is Man enough to take care of Himself.

    F: If he is simply a man, . . .

    GB: Hello!! Earth to Freek!!! Jesus wasn’t simply a man!! Get it!!

    F: The real God is so awesome we can’t even comprehend him.

    GB: And yet Jesus said we needed to know God to have eternal life. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    F: The bible says that God fills the entire universe!

    GB: Chapter and verse please. Jesus (the preeminent prophet) declared that God was in heaven NOT everywhere. See post above.

    F: My God was never a man, he was never equal to me.

    GB: I can agree with you on that. Your god never was born of a woman, never received a body of flesh and bones, never was resurrected, never ascended again into heaven and your god doesn’t currently have a body of flesh and bones, because your god isn’t the true God.

    Ah, I can just feel the “love” you folks have for me.

  42. jackg says:

    SteveH

    A genuine Christian experience would mean the real Holy Spirit was involved as opposed to a false spirit.

    Grace and Peace!

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