Mormon Coffee

Paige Richardson’s Testimony Out of Mormonism And Into the Arms of Jesus

June 29, 2009

By Aaron Shafovaloff

Comments (124)

124 Comments so far

setfree on June 29th, 2009

Awesome.
Paige (if you’re there), rest in God’s goodness, His faithfulness, His timing, and His love for your family. My family of 10 (my parents and 8 kids) are now all ex-Mo, 9 are saved. He is working for your family, I really believe that.
Wow, He’s AWESOME! !
jackg on June 29th, 2009

Wow! My soul resonated with what Paige said. I have gone through the same experiences, and my heart for the Mormons is just like hers, which reflects Paul’s heart for the Jews as expressed in Romans 10:1-4. I found it interesting how she reached that point when she asked God to reveal the truth, whatever that was–if the LDS Church was true, then she would follow; if it wasn’t true, then she would follow that path. I, too, reached that same crisis moment in my life. In fact, I faced that moment several times: my conversion experience, and when my son left for and came home from his mission. I have to admit that when my son came home, I WANTED the LDS Church to be true. I cried out to God to restore my testimony about JS if that was indeed what needed to happen in my life. How did God respond? He put people in my life who, without even realizing they were being used in His hands, spoke words of affirmation concerning my conversion. He also led me through the same passages He had used when leading me out of Mormonism. He reminded me of what He had already done in my life! He did this all with patience and love–I could really sense that about His character doing those times. I praise and love God for Who He is, and what He does in our lives reveals His character and the essence of His Being and His Heart. There’s a reason we have the biblical model of Moses reminding the Israelites what God had already done in their history in order for them to go forward into the unknown with faith in a faithful God who always Delivers! That’s what He did with me, and the last occasion nearly two years ago solidified my testimony that God led me out of the bondage of Mormonism and into the freedom of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. God is indeed working to redeem the Mormons. The stories of all former Mormons are a witness to this marvelous truth!

Peace and Grace!!
Brian on June 29th, 2009

Dear jackg,

Thanks for reminding us of God’s faithfulness, and how He has revealed to you His marvelous person and work through the pages of the Holy Bible. I love the passage from Romans chapter 10 you cited.

Once, there was a time when all of us here were ignorant of the righteousness that comes from God. Each of us here who have been saved now have a perfect life. As Dr. D. James Kennedy once said, “I just didn’t live it. Christ lived it for me.”

Dear setfree,

So happy to hear of the salvation you and so many of your family have in Christ Jesus. I have prayed for your family member whom you love, and so wish to have the glorious spiritual blessings which you do (Eph. 1).

Dear Paige,

My computer is not equipped for video, but it is clear from the posts of others that you have shared a beautiful testimony of the eternal life that God has given you from the bounty of His love. Thank you for sharing what God has done in your life.

If you are like many others, you once could never have imagined what God did to purchase your salvation from judgment. That God would become man, and had purposed before the world began that our judgment would fall upon Him.

Thank you again for sharing your testimony, Paige. God has indeed blessed you.
Ralph on June 30th, 2009

Interesting.

I know quite a few people who have converted from Traditional Christian churches to the LDS church and they thank Heavenly Father for the opportunity they had to either grow up in a Christian environment or to be brought to the knowledge of Jesus through a Traditional Christian church but they now know the folly of their past beliefs and because of this they thank Heavenly Father for the further truth and knowledge they have received from the LDS church.

These people were from Lutheran backgrounds (my friends in Finland), Anglican backgrounds (my parents and a few others here in Newcastle) and some other backgrounds I have not asked about but I do believe that one was Pentacostal.

Its all relative as to what we wish/want to believe in. The definition of faith in the Bible is “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1) As someone said on another article, we see the evidence we want to see to keep our faith. If faith is the evidence of things not seen then we LDS have a lot of faith don’t we! And yes we do have faith in Jesus, albeit we believe in Him differently to Traditional Christians.
setfree on June 30th, 2009

Ralph,

“the SUBSTANCE of things hope for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen”… the actual PROOF that what God has said is true, though we cannot see Him. This does not make it “relative as to what we wish/want to believe in”.

Your church teaches that Lucifer was the good guy because he went behind God’s back and helped Eve disobey so we could all become gods. Show the SUBSTANCE of your upcoming godhood. Show the EVIDENCE that there is salvation without Christ.

What was being expressed above was the SUBSTANCE of what was hoped for (peace, joy) and the EVIDENCE of God because what He says in the Bible has shown up in our lives. I know you can’t hear. I’ll tell you the truth though Ralph. I really wish you could understand what we’re talking about.
falcon on June 30th, 2009

Nice try Ralph, but you’re not going to spoil this lady’s testimony. I get a kick out of your attempts to highjack this thread….very naughty Ralph. But you really don’t have any other choice but to try and discount the Christian witness of this woman who left Mormonism because it’s an affront to what you believe.
I would guess that your examples were told all of the secret truths about Mormonism before they joined-up with the Morg. I keep reading from exMos, especially the converts, that they didn’t konw what they were joining when they joined the Mormon church. Most don’t have a clue about the whole Joesph Smith story and certainly nothing about the Mormonism/occult connection. Generally they are clueless about the Mormon doctrine of the nature of God and the Masonic temple throat cutting and disembowelment rites practiced until word got out and it was changed in 1990.
I keep reading stories of these Mormon converts who, once they figured-out what they were into, jumped ship. Right now two-thirds of those on the rolls of the Mormon church are nonactive and half of the returning missionaries are AWOL from the morg.
So Ralph, now I’m going to hear about the one person who you told the whole story to and, wouldn’t you know it, that’s why they joined the morg. Been there with you before Ralph. We all know there are more folks going out the back door than are coming in the front. We also know the juggling that goes on with the Mormon numbers, counting those born in the Mormon church as new members etc.
So thank you Lord for this woman’s wonderful testimony of how she was enlightened of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and hearing she believed and secured her salvation through your Son Jesus Christ.
Rick B on June 30th, 2009

Hey guys this is a prayer request and info on what happened.
I was home chilling out and Nathanial (my 9 year old son) comes running in the house all smiles, He was saying, DAD, DAD, I ran into Mormons outside and told them you would love to speak to them. Then he said, the Mormons told him they would be over shortly. I never knew they were outside, But they came over at 7:45, I have my Picture taken with them since Shelli (my wife) has some Mormon Scrap booking stuff for me. We talked for about 30 Minutes and Nathanial stood their the whole time listening.

Then he ran and grabbed my J.S.T of the Bible when I mentioned that to the Mormons. I asked the Mormons Why is it if I claim I prayed about the BoM and God either tells me to Search the Scriptures (Acts 17:11) Or tells me JS is a false Prophet, then it is either I did not pray sincerely, or somehow it’s my fault. They had no answer, but asked me if I would pray about the BoM one more time, Since they know this will be the time I really hear from God.

Then they asked me, is their a time we can meet you again, I said this Wed, they said is their anything we can research to talk about with you on Wed. I said the nature of God, Since if you get that wrong then your off on everything. So they said they would study up on the Nature of God and we will meet this Wed. Also I wrote Jim and invite him over, Not sure yet if he can make it, But if anyone here, Mormon or other wise, is welcome over to talk, And yes STRONG BLACK COFFEE will be provided. Rick b
st.crispin on June 30th, 2009

I would concur with Ralph.
For every “Paige” leaving the LDS Church there are at least a dozen others leaving the false traditions of Protestantism (the philosophies of men mingled with scripture) to join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth. I have met many such converts who praise the Lord that Christ has brought them to the eternal truths of Restored Gospel. These converts praise Jesus that they have been freed from the horrible bondage of the false doctrines of men.

I pray in Christ’s name every day that those poor, wretched souls entrapped by the evils of Protestantism will be delivered from the darkness of their bondage by the infinite love of Jesus Christ – my Lord and Saviour – and brought to the Lord’s Church.
Ralph on June 30th, 2009

Setfree,

faith is faith, regardless of what it is placed in. I can have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow morning. I can have faith the light will turn on when I push the button. Some people have faith in science and evolution. The definition of faith in the Bible describes all of these, including faith for Salvation. And yes, it is a choice. This can be seen by your acceptance of other Christian denominations that believe the same core doctrine but have varying other doctrines. You made a choice what you wanted to believe in and they made theirs, and sometimes these choices are at opposition with each other.

As to your question “Show the SUBSTANCE of your upcoming godhood?” I have found the evidence I need from the Bible to allow me to believe in that doctrine. Your next question about salvation without Jesus has me puzzled because we never teach that. And if you are an ex-LDS then you should know that, meaning that you are now bearing false witness, or you never fully understood the teachings of the church.

Falcon,

You are quick to defend others’ testimonies that believe as you do but quick to discount the testimonies of those who do not. What is the difference between you and me in that respect?

As far as the number of LDS that are inactive or ‘going out the back door’, Jesus taught in the parable of the 10 virgins that not everyone that belongs to His true church will make it to live with Heavenly Father. Also, Jesus had some disciples that left Him and decided to follow other beliefs (John 6:66). So I have no concern about a numbers game in that respect – besides, numbers (in this respect) do not prove anything to be true or false, just popular or unpopular. I do have the concern that these people who are leaving are losing the truth and following the world to their eternal condemnation.
falcon on June 30th, 2009

Oh my, dozens leaving Protestantism. Really? And we know that how and does it really matter? I guess they must all be immoral or someone must have offended them because we all know that’s the only reason someone would leave Protestantism. You poor Mormons just don’t get it, do you?

OK, I need to clue our Mormon friends into something here and it’s very important so pay attention. Whether someone is a member of a Christian denomination is immaterial to the status of their immortal soul. There are probably countless numbers of folks sitting in pews out of habit who aren’t born again. Being a member and going through the rites of an organized church doesn’t get someone saved, got it? A person is saved by faith, not by works. Check it out. It’s in the Bible.

If you can give me some statistics regarding how many folks who are born again and part of the mystical body of Christ who turn their backs on the Lord, then I’ll be truly impressed. You see that’s the problem with Mormonism of the SLC brand at least. It’s a different religion from Christianity with a false god and a false gospel.

See the reason people join Mormonism in the first place is that they’re so impressed when the missionaries start them off with the truly impressive information that Joseph Smith “translated” the golden plates by putting his magic rock in a hat and “divinating” the words on the golden plates….which is really impressive since the plates weren’t even present. Armed with this information, folks can’t wait to get into the program.
“You mean Elder Jones, he really had a magic rock? Will I get one too if I join? That’s better than a decoder ring. Sign me up.”
st.crispin on June 30th, 2009

Falcon,

The LDS Church recorded 265,593 convert baptisms for the year 2008. Of which, the great majority were previously members of some Christian denomination.

You state that: “Whether someone is a member of a Christian denomination is immaterial to the status of their immortal soul.”

Most Christians would disagree with your narrow interpretation of the scriptures.

You state that: “A person is saved by faith, not by works.”

Most Christians would disagree with your narrow interpretation of the scriptures.

You refer to: “the mystical body of Christ”

Again, most Christians would disagree with your narrow interpretation of the scriptures.

It is apparent that you are the one who “doesn’t get it!”
falcon on June 30th, 2009

St. Crispin,
I see you’re doing broken record here. How would you know what most Christians think? Jesus said something about the “narrow way” so I’m more than happy to be “narrow” in my interpretation. Yes indeed it does bug me when I get flippant, dissmissive comments from Mormons who don’t bother to spend any time crafting a thoughtful response.

I’d like to hear if the Christians who post here think I’m off the mark.
st.crispin on June 30th, 2009

Falcon,

You are always “off the mark”.

Your posts constitute the penultimate “broken record” with Joseph Smith is evil blah, blah, blah. The LDS Church is a demonic cult blah, blah, blah. The LDS temple is a center for the occult blah, blah, blah. Mormons are dupes blah, blah, blah.

It is the same blah, blah, blah every single week.

Really, you are a broken record.

It is rather apparent that it is simply beyond your abilities to “craft a thoughtful response” let alone an original thought.
Enki on June 30th, 2009

st.crispin,
Have you ever really seriously questioned anything around and about the nazarene? The strangest thing about Mormons is praying in that name to find out if its true. You have to believe already, and you expect it to be true to even udder the prayer.

I crafted my own prayer over 20 years ago which was much more broad and open, for the possibility that the truth was somewhere completely outside of the bible, BOM, or perhaps something I had never heard of. Oddly enough I was initially disappointed because I didn’t get any immediate answer. I believe I have finally found it, and its not the LDS faith, and its not within any abrahamic religion.
jackg on June 30th, 2009

It seems that we’re getting into a discussion of “my testimony verses your testimony.” Well, I used to believe that I had a testimony of JS. But, by God’s grace, I now know the truth of JS. You know, there was always something about the death of JS that bothered me. He never seemed to be a man of courage when faced with death. I always compared his death scene to that of Stephen’s. There is absolutely no comparison. Stephen was truly empowered by the Holy Spirit, while JS possessed not an inkling of the Spirit. These are things that God puts on one’s heart to get them thinking about the veracity of the LDS Church. This is how God brings a Mormon from precontemplative state to contemplative. I know there are things that bother every Mormon. My former mother-in-law is a strong member, but struggles with the idea of polygamy in heaven. How does she reconcile her distaste for this doctrine (which is God’s grace in her life; she can respond to it)? She gives the standard Mormon response: “I guess I’ll understand it when I get there.” Then, there’s the whole third verse of “We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet,” which is about JS. If anyone has an LDS hymnal, the blood of JS is spoken of as if it’s his blood that saves us (I think it’s the third verse). Such things naturally cause red flags to pop up, but Mormons are generally afraid to say anything because they will be told that they are entering the road to apostasy. It’s all about fear tactics, which is why Mormonism qualifies as a cult. Folks joining the Mormon Church usually get there through deception, meaning that the totality of the beliefs of Mormonism are held back until after the new convert really believes they have their own testimony of the “truth.” Folks leaving the Mormon Church taste the sweet taste of grace, and are free to obey God as a love response to that unfathomable grace.

Blessings to seekers of the Truth
st.crispin on June 30th, 2009

Enki,

Curious, how does one: “udder the prayer”???

This is a new concept to me.

So the answer to your “uddering a prayer” is that God is “not within any abrahamic religion”?

Are you a member of some bovine cult?

Is your god named “Bessie” and is She happily contented?

Perhaps you should join a 4H club to spread the “good news”.
Andy Watson on June 30th, 2009

What is the Mormon definition of “narrow”. There are several, but let’s look at two of my favorites.

Definition #1 of “narrow”: marriage in the temple

“And again, we repeat for emphasis from Matthew: ‘Enter ye in the strait gate.’ That’s an s-t-r-a-i-t gate, not the shortest distance between two points. Strait means hard, difficult, exacting, that kind of gate. And that’s the kind of a gate that marriage is. An eternal marriage is also strait and difficult. ‘Strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it’.

“Now, all Latter-day Saints are not going to be exalted. All people who have been through the holy temple are not going to be exalted. The Lord says, ‘Few there be that find it.’ For there are two elements: (1) the sealing of a marriage in the holy temple, and (2) righteous living through one’s life thereafter to make that sealing permanent. Only through PROPER MARRIAGE – and I repeat that – only through proper marriage can one find that strait way, the NARROW path. No one can ever have life, real life, in any other way under any other program.” (Spencer Kimball, “Achieving a Celestial Marriage”, page 274).

Definition #2: D&C 1:30 (the LDS Church is the only true church on the face of the earth)

Officially, this is what Mormons believe, but they don’t talk about it too much to the public because they want to be considered part of the Christian community. I don’t know how many LDS missionaries and regular church members have told me “All religions have forms of truth”. Really? Is this theosophy? Islam? Hinduism? Buddhism? They have forms of truth? D&C 1:30 is pretty NARROW, but this kind of talking by Mormons doesn’t add up. I guess when LDS missionaries are sitting in Christian (non-LDS) church services in their missionary clothes with ID badges stating to people that their “jesus” and gospel is the same as ours, is that what D&C 1:30 is all about? No, Acts 20:28-30 defines it.
Enki on June 30th, 2009

st.crispin,
Wow, that is so funny! Seriously, that has me smiling, I feel so good right now. Yes, I guess alot of people are involved in some bovine cult.
(from wikipedia…)
The Evangelist St. Luke is depicted as an ox in Christian art.
In Judaism, as described in Numbers 19:2, the ashes of a sacrificed unblemished red heifer that has never been yoked can be used for ritual purification of people who came into contact with a corpse.
The ox is one of the 12-year cycle of animals which appear in the Chinese zodiac related to the Chinese calendar. See: Ox (Zodiac).
The constellation Taurus represents a bull.
The akabeko (赤べこ?, red cow) is a traditional toy from the Aizu region of Japan that is thought to ward off illness.[44]
The Maasai tribe of East Africa traditionally believe that all cows on earth are the God-given property of the Maasai

Hindu tradition

In Hinduism, the cow is a symbol of wealth, strength, abundance, selfless giving and a full Earthly life.Cows are venerated within the Hindu religion of India. According to Vedic scripture they are to be treated with the same respect ‘as one’s mother’ because of the milk they provide; “The cow is my mother. The bull is my sire.”[45] Th
Enki on June 30th, 2009

Eh… Ladder day saints uddering and preying…
Andy Watson on June 30th, 2009

Crisp,

First of all, “cool your jets” with the sarcasm and mocking of Enki. We know what Alma 5 says about mocking. This isn’t the Mormon Coffee “spelling bee” here…lighten up. I think Enki is a young girl. Nobody here is working on their doctorate by blogging here.

I’d like to be convert number 265,594 who supposedly leaves Christendom to join the ranks of the Mormon foot soldiers. I will leave my Protestant church, take my family and many members with me and march to Salt Lake City and kiss the ring finger of Thomas Monson and put you to shame in LDS evangelism efforts. Before I enlist I need to know, see, read and understand three things. They are:

1. Show me from the Bible with clear, detailed Scripture what Joseph Smith said was “the first principle of the gospel”: God is an exalted man. I must see that.
2. Show me the word “Gods” (spelled exactly like that from Abraham 4) anywhere in the Bible.
3. Tell me and everyone here that you know that you have been forgiven for all of your sins and that if you died right now you know you’d be in the celestial kingdom with your god who resides near Kolob.

Okay, you can give me two out of three. Answer #3 and give me either #1 or #2 from the Bible. I’m ready to pack my bags this night. I’m ready to be baptized in your ward by you this weekend. Please help me.

BONUS: I’ll ask you what I asked my last Gospel Essentials teacher who had been a Mormon for 80 years: “Jesus Christ is my Savior. I am born again, have forgiveness for my sins and have eternal life RIGHT NOW. What can the LDS Church offer me that I don’t have already have in Jesus?”

His reply: “Nothing.”

You should have seen the looks on the faces of those sitting in the class. That was my last class. Why go back? I have all I need in Jesus Christ NOW from what He said in His Word – the Bible.

Crisp, help me with those questions. It’s not too late.
Okie on June 30th, 2009

Paige your story is the one I hope and pray to hear from my wife some day. There have been days when I have wanted to just throw my hands in the air and disobey I Corinthians 7:10-16 even though I KNOW that would be sin in my life. But hearing people such as yourself give me hope. And so I continue,praying daily for my wife and ALL of our family. Grace and Peace in our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
Andy Watson on June 30th, 2009

Paige,

Welcome to the real family of the real, living God! You are no longer a child of the devil who is the father to all those who have not accepted the Savior (John 8:44). You are now one of the Father’s children because you have accepted the real Savior as told to us from the Bible (John 1:12). It’s a miracle when anyone comes to faith in Christ. It’s even more so when someone is extracted from the clutches of a non-Christian cult such as Mormonism. We have former temple Mormons who have come to faith in the real Jesus at my church and it’s really amazing hearing their stories. You’re not alone. Pray for your family members. It’s only through the power of God that they are going to have the blinds removed from their eyes (2 Cor 4:4) and be drawn by the Father to faith in Christ (John 6:44). I wish you God’s blessings in your life and in the future.

Ralph,

I’m looking forward one day to seeing your video or reading about your extraction from Mormonism when you find out that all the dots are not connecting when it comes to the historicity issues that deal with doctrinal subjects that we have talked about.
Kevin on June 30th, 2009

I would like to address Crispin’s account on membership.
“According to LDS-published statistics, the annual number of LDS converts declined from a high of 321,385 in 1996 to 241,239 in 2004. In the 1990s, the church’s growth rate went from 5 percent a year to 3 percent.” (http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2890645)

Interesting point here is, as the information age is upon us LDS conversions is declining. It doesn’t matter if those conversions are from a Christian denomination or not, the point of the issue is trends. The Mormon population is not going in a positive direction considering the birth rate in the U.S.

I was a Lutheran (uneducated one at that) until I was age 30 when I had the “bait and switch” pulled on me by a few LDS missionaries (Please see the two gospels of Mormonism). After 5 years of trying to justify the end by the means, my wife (who was raised LDS) and I were liberated by Jesus Christ. So whatever numbers the church reports this year, minus that number by at least 2.
Ralph on June 30th, 2009

Okie,

Just remember, you are saved because of your faith, not your works. So there is no reason why you can’t just up and leave your wife, right? And no, I am not making a joke about your marriage situation, I am in a serious period right now where I have to contemplate very strongly about leaving my wife or staying, just to make sure the children are safe. If there were no children I would not have this dilemma. But as for your situation, 1 Cor 7:10-16 has no bearing because you are already saved. Its not a sin if you leave. Or if it is, then Jesus has already paid for it and you will still get to heaven.
Kevin on June 30th, 2009

In the past I have defended some LDS’rs because I thought they were being treated rough, I still feel that way so please don’t hang me for this post. I just think its funny. This is a tongue and cheek post from another web site.

Follow the profit, follow the profit

General Authority(GA): There is not an “F” in Prophet
Christen(C): Are you to say the official church position is there is no eff’n Prophet?
GA: Thats right, obviously, there is ‘no eff’n prophet’! Never has been and never will be
C: So I guess the LDS church really is a non prophet organization
GA: There is no profit to be found in our books

I hope you laugh
Martin_from_Brisbane on June 30th, 2009

Okie,

I pray for you and your wife. I’m guessing that you’re feeling completely powerless in this situation – maybe its something that you and your wife don’t talk about because you just end up arguing.

I wish I could give you some great pearl of wisdom, but I can’t. I just pray that the Holy Spirit of Christ will lead you both. Love your wife as Christ loved His church and gave himself for her (Eph 5:25). Just don’t forget that Christ loves you and gave himself for you too.
falcon on June 30th, 2009

The falcon is feeling pretty good this morning seeing that our LDS friends are actually reading my posts and secondly, that my message is getting through. I have about three or four major themes that I bang away at constantly and that’s because we are told that there are a bunch of “lurkers” that drop by Mormon Coffee. I’m guessing that some are new here (on a daily basis) and others are returnees.
Well what are those themes? Primarily:
1. The foundation of Mormonism is in the occult. As such, Mormonism denies the God of the Bible and follows a spirit that leads people away from salvation presented clearly in God’s Word the Holy Bible. The religious “spiritual” experiences provided by the spirit of Mormonism deceives and suduces Mormons by reinforcing the outright lies that Satan, through Joseph Smith, propagated to the folks. The big lie of course is that the Mormon can become “a god”. This is all reinforced, of course, through a very special feeling that the Mormon gets “confirming” to them that this is true and that they are spiritually connected to the god of this world. We all know who the god of this world is.
It’s interesting to see how exMormons extricate themselves from the Mormon cult. Usually there’s this gnawing feeling that something just isn’t right within Mormonism. Then there is a desire to know the truth coupled with a longing to know who God is and what His will is for their lives. An intense search follows with a genuine openness to knowing the truth no matter where that might lead.
This is a difficult emotional journey and one that takes courage because for many, the cost of leaving Mormonism and following Christ can be high. But having secured their salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, the exMormon is now free to follow God instead of thinking they can become one.
falcon on June 30th, 2009

The last twenty-four hours have not been good ones for our Mormon posters who are left scrambling around trying to spin some sort of web and misdirection away from the phenomenal story of Paige, who in her spiritual quest to find God, rejected Mormonism and became born again. Quite interestingly, our Mormon friends haven’t attacked her personally (which is good) and her revelation of the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ.
What we are getting from our Mormon posters are some dry and dull statistics that there are “X” number of people converting to Mormonism every year. This is a kind of “truth supported by numbers” attempt that is pretty laughable. What our Mormon friends fail to reveal is how many people are leaving Mormonism every year. The other thing they fail to address is the downright deceitful manner in which people are sucked into the black hole of Mormonism. In the Sandara Tanner video posted here, Sandra makes the excellent point that the Mormon hisorians she chats with know the truth regarding Mormonism but stay with it because they think the church is doing some good. Sandra’s point: “Yea but the Mormon missionaries aren’t reflecting that in their recruitment pitch.”
But the light of God can, as we see over and over again, penetrate this darkness and bring people to a saving knowledge of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.
setfree on June 30th, 2009

Ralph
are you being serious about this? “I am in a serious period right now where I have to contemplate very strongly about leaving my wife or staying…”
May I ask why you are in this position?
falcon on June 30th, 2009

I remember watching a video clip of a Mormon missionary training session and the trainer kept emphasizing that when speaking to the prospect, the Mormon misssionary should take the person directly to “that little grove of trees”. Now this of course is speaking to Joseph Smith’s place of “vision” (pick any of the various versions of the grove of trees story you wish).
Contrast that with Christianity which takes people directly to the Cross of Christ. In Mormonism it’s all about Joseph Smith. In Christianity it’s all about Jesus. Right from the beginning, Mormonism eschews the Cross of Christ. Interesting strategy, keeping someone away from the very means by which they can obtain forgiveness for their sins and God’s gift of eternal life through Christ’s sacrifice.
Now who would come up with a plan like that (rejecting the Cross)? Who is served by people rejecting God and His plan of salvation for “a god”?
I’ve never really had anyone argue with me about the fact that they are a sinner. Most people get that. They understand that it is our sin that separates us from a righteous, merciful and just God. The process of owning our sin, repenting and receiving God’s gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ is indeed the “Good News” that Christians have to share. It’s all about Jesus from the beginning to the end. He is the Alpha and Omega, the visible manifestation of God.
What God has to offer sinners through His plan of salvation, is personal (for the individual) and yet applies to all who are willing to receive this Gift of eternal life through faith.
I think I just had a burning in my bossom! I know it makes me feel really good every time I think about how God loved me so much that he was willing to take upon Himself the punishment I should have received for my sins. The Bible says that a just man “falls” seven times a day. Calculate that amount of sins in the lifetime of a “just” man. No amount of effort on our part will overcome the penalty for sin.
Grace on June 30th, 2009

Hello Everyone,

This is my first time posting, though I’ve been following this site for over two years now! There were many times when I felt like sharing some things before, but for one reason or another, I just didn’t. That is until now when I read Okie’s situation. It really brought me to tears because I know first hand the sadness we feel for having a mormon spouse.

Okie, I just wanted to give you some words of encouragement for what you’re going through. Don’t give up on your wife! You’re her closest example of the real Jesus that she has. Love her with all your heart, as Jesus did for those who rejected Him, and trust that He will see you both thru it all.

When my husband and I married, he had been a “jack mormon” for over 15 yrs, and I had been out of my christian church for about 5 yrs. But after our first child was born, I went back to church and never left. I have raised our three children faithfully as God-fearing Christians, and ten yrs into our marriage, my husband decided that he wanted to have that same relationship wiht the Lord. Except that instead of joining our faith, he began investigating his childhood church, and decided to join the mormon curch again, leaving the children and I simply stunned and heartbroken!!! I had been praying for him for over ten years, and when that happened, I almost stopped believing in God altogether! The last three years have been a very long, discouraging road for our family, as my husband continues strong in the lds church. But over and over, God keeps convicting me that this is not over yet; it’s just simply a detour along the way.

PLease keep strong! God is greater than anyone and anything! I’ll be praying for you.
setfree on June 30th, 2009

It’s nice to meet you Grace. (What a terrific name). I don’t think God needs extra prayers or extra convincing, but I like to know there are people out there praying for me too. I DO believe that God is working on your husband, and that his (your husband’s) little trip to outerspace may be the only thing that rattles him enough to leave all silliness behind once and for all. Thanks for sharing your hope (confident expectation of good). I’ll be praying for you all.
God bless
Enki on June 30th, 2009

Falcon,
The thing is that the cross existed before christianity. It represents life, the four directions, the seasons and the sun. The image of a suffering jew on the cross was crafted to achieve a number of objectives. One thing was to create fear and a negative association with the cross.

Falcon you are correct that Mormons eschew the cross. I certainly did when I was involved with the LDS faith. However, LDS people unquestionably believe that blood was necessary to be spilled to pay the price of sin. Isn’t that something which is shared with non-LDS christians? In away this is totally in alignment with christians. Either to ignore the cross or have false information about it.

I now know that the cross was STOLDEN by christians which placed a different meaning on it. With my new understandings I now have good feelings about the cross. I live in a community which is largely fundementalist christian. Its not uncommon for people to wear jewlery or have the cross in their car, in their homes etc… I don’t feel afraid of it anymore, but feel kind of annoyed and sad about the ignorance many people have about the cross.
Ward on June 30th, 2009

Ralph: “And no, I am not making a joke about your marriage situation, I am in a serious period right now where I have to contemplate very strongly about leaving my wife or staying, just to make sure the children are safe. If there were no children I would not have this dilemma.” Wow, Ralph. I am saddened that you are in this situation, whatever it is in detail. I am sure all of us will be carrying you in our prayers. I hope you are in a position to get some help and input regarding all the particulars. Go with Grace…

This thread has sure brought out a lot. And some new folk. Welcome! Paige’s openness has been a blessing to many. I have felt very close to many of you here as you have responded to her. Sometimes we get kind of grumpy or blunt on MC, but this feels really close and caring. Okie and Grace – there are no easy words or answers for your situations with your spouses. My heart goes out to you. Our Christian journey is not guaranteed to be successful, or even pretty at times. But through it all, my prayer is that His Grace is enough for us.

Have a blessed grace-filled day!
Rick B on July 1st, 2009

Enko said

I believe I have finally found it, and its not the LDS faith, and its not within any abrahamic religion.

Can you tell me exactly what you believe? I can tell your not a Christian and you admited you do not believe the BoM.

Enki said

The thing is that the cross existed before christianity. It represents life, the four directions, the seasons and the sun. The image of a suffering jew on the cross was crafted to achieve a number of objectives. One thing was to create fear and a negative association with the cross.

Dude, what are you smoking? I bet your eyes are brown aren’t they. All of what you said about the Cross is not in the Bible, and the Cross existed before the foundation of the Earth. The Bible tells us The LAMB, “Jesus” Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus was Slain before the foundation of the earth. Jesus was planning before the foundation to go to the cross. So the Cross was around before the earth. Rick b
jeffrey b on July 1st, 2009

Okie!

There is hope for you. My wife was born and raised LDS (3 or 4 generations in I think?) – her father is a bishop so this is a very Mormon family. Anyways, every time I would try and talk to her about what I had learned about the history of the LDS church and teachings of their own prophets, she would get angry and the conversation typically ended in tears from the both of us.

Anyways, it was pretty much this blog that was key in her leaving the LDS church.. She knew that I visited it often (which she wasn’t happy about) and then one day she confronted her fears and decided to learn a little. She didn’t find that anyone was “Mormon Bashing” with no validity to their statements, what she found was well referenced material that she had never even heard about. She never even knew that Joseph Smith had more than one wife, masonic rituals in temples, curse of cain, adam-god doctrine, book of abraham debacle, etc..

Now, I didn’t even know she had read this blog and I had all but given up trying to talk to her about it because I saw how badly it hurt her when her religion was challenged. One day on a car ride she said out the blue “I don’t think I believe in the LDS church anymore.” I was blown away, and obviously later on when she stopped going to church and her parents learned of her disbelief, they were blown away the same.

Long Story Short – We now attend a wonderful Christian church and she is actually a volunteer in the nursery. She feels a tremendous burden lifted from her now that she knows that her salvation is secure by the blood of Jesus Christ and that HE is the mediator between her and God. Not some broken human organization pretending to have power that for some reason thinks we need to go to the International House of Handshakes for exaltation.

My suggestion is pray my friend. I unfortunately don’t think I did enough of it but God still moved mountains and opened my wife’s eyes to the truth. Your God is stronger and more powerful than Mormonism.
Olsen Jim on July 1st, 2009

Just watched the video.

Truly earth-shattering. A person who “was never really into the church” ends up involved in another faith after watching propaganda videos from [filtered profanity or slur] “ministries.” Wow. Astonishing.

Please. Had she ever even read the BOM in its entirety? Ever done any research of her own or read any pro-BOM/LDS scholarship? Likely no to both questions.

Falcon- I have read your posts for a while now. It seems you will say just about anything to denigrate the LDS faith. This includes repeating obvious lies over and over. You never really seem to digest or think about meaningful arguments. Saying that LDS do not believe that salvation is through Christ may make you feel neat, but it is a pure lie. And I think you know that.

Kevin- your take on the number of people leaving the church is an opinion. The availability of information on the internet and the number of those leaving the church are not the only two variables to consider, correct me if I’m wrong. You might take a look at other religions and see how they are doing. Look at the influence of evil in the world and the loss of interest in God. Do you think your argument may be a little short-sighted?

fof
Okie on July 1st, 2009

“that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.” Thanks one and all for your kind comments.This is just a “Jericho” that God has placed in my life. How I respond to it HAS to be in a way that gives GOD all the glory and honor.
As a side note GREAT pictures from Manti.
falcon on July 1st, 2009

Olsen, Jim
Over the many months that I have been on this blog I have asked our Mormon friends to specifically tell me what I am saying regarding the LDS religion; its history and beliefs is not true. I get total silence. I’ll tell you why; it’s easy to say “it’s all lies” and then run away without checking out what is said or give an explanation as to what was stated is not true. Please list my lies and I’ll be more than happy to answer your charges point-by-point.
My friend Andy Watson/Berean has forgotten more about Mormonism than you’ll ever know and he’s never told me that what I’ve written is wrong. In fact it’s not unusual for me to run something by Andy before I write it or for me to look something up before I make a comment. You, my friend, are so deep into the Morg that you couldn’t see the truth if it bit you.
First of all, the Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of Christianity or the Bible. The Jesus of Mormonism is a created being, the offspring of a father god and his goddess wife. In Mormon lore, Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers. This is blasphemy of the highest order. The Mormon jesus is not a qualified Savior.
Secondly, the salvation of the Mormon is dependent on “after all we can do” which means that salvation through Jesus is not necessary if the Mormon can “do” enough; that is be righteous enough. That’s why a Mormon has absolutely no assurance of their final destination upon death. Rank, in the Mormon system, is dependent on how much the Mormon can do. This is not Christianity.
Paige escaped this religious system that promotes a false god, jesus, and holy spirit and found salvation through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. She’s been born again through faith on the basis of God’s love and mercy. Mormons don’t know Jesus. Mormons are stuck in a system that they suppose will lead them to become gods, their wives goddesses, and their own planetary system to rule.
OK friend, where am I wrong?
falcon on July 1st, 2009

This, “we believe in salvation through Jesus Christ” is just one of the many word games Mormons play. The reason Mormons play this game, of course, is to make Mormonism appear mainstream. One of the first things someone learns in dealing with cults is that the terms that are used must be clearly defined. Mormonism uses a web of subtrefuge to confuse and misdirect people. This is why so many get angry when they dig a little deeper and discover that they’ve been lied to; often through omission of critical information.
Mormons have redefined several key terms such as; atonement, gift, eternal life, and salvation. The LDS definition of these terms conceals the LDS views of the nature of Jesus, his preexistance, his relationship to us, His atoning work, and his ultimate mission. The Jesus of Mormonism is qualitatively a different Jesus from Christianity. Past LDS president, prophet, and seer Gordon Hinckley said, “The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998, p.7) Hinckley also said, “There is some substance” to what critics say when they point out that Mormons “do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity.” (Ensign, May 1996, p.94)
Hidden within the pages of LDS publications comes the truth of the matter. Would it be that Mormons were so forthright when it comes to dealing with the general public.
falcon on July 1st, 2009

Mormons reject the Cross of Christ both in a symbolic and literal fashion. We’ve discussed on this blog the fact that Mormons reject the Cross of Christ as a symbol but embrace occult symbols which proudly adorn many of their temples. In the Bible, the apostle Paul states that he is not ashamed of the Cross of Christ but apparently, by their actions, Mormons are ashamed of it.
Mormons minimize Christ’s death on the Cross by opting for a place of atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane. Mormonism rejects the fact that Jesus’ very point of death itself was an act of atonement. Mormonism teaches Jesus’ death accomplished the possiblility of those, through self-effort, to prove themselves worthy of the reward to become a god, also called eternal life in Mormonism.
This is not Biblical Christianity and any attempts to make it sound as such is Mormonisms’ attempt to use blue smoke and mirrors to hide their actual beliefs. Christians recognize one kind of salvation-eternity in God’s immediate presence. Accepting Christ as Savior results in eternal life (Romans 10:9) in God’s presence; not exaltation to godhood. Accepting Jesus as Savior provides entrance into heaven (Romans 3:24). God offers a twofold gift (Romans 6:23) to people who will receive this gift of salvation by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10).
God’s promises are literal, unconditional and eternal. Mormonism for all it’s attempts to confuse and obfuscate the truth, knows nothing of God’s gift of eternal life and does indeed reject the Cross.
setfree on July 1st, 2009

Falcon,
Amen to all that!
Jeffrey,
The IHOP reference cracked me up!
Okie,
Having been there myself in two different ways, I can tell you that it’s when you believe God (i.e. by trusting Him and doing as He has written in His word – in this case staying with the unbeliever)that real miracles are accomplished. That’s a bad way to put it. God can and will do miracles. But when you believe Him, you get to be part of them in a way that lifts you and strengthens you, and shows you His power and goodness in a very personal way. I’m excited that you’re in this position, because when you see the victory, it will be all that much more sweet!
Rick B on July 1st, 2009

Jim, Why do you post here? You seem to only attack and cause trouble.

Let me fill you in on a few things ok. Go back and read what LDS member Shem said to me, I accused him of not answering Questions, He said he is not afraid to answer any question, I pointed out the two he missed, He has not posted since.

Tell me Jim, Why do the LDS avoid Questions that seem so simple. Them after avoiding Questions You tell me it is Us that are bashing.

Now here is something that is taking place today and started on Monday.

On Monday, Two MM’s stopped by my house, We talked for about 30 minutes, In our talk I flat out asked them, Why is it I have read all 4 stranded works, I read and own the Original D and C with the Lectures on faith and many other LDS books.

Yet despite reading all of these books I keep Being told by LDS to pray about the BoM. I told the MM’s who came Over The Bible says SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES to know if these things are true (Acts 17:11) Then in 4 places in the BoM it says Search the Scriptures.

Then I told the MM’s the Bible NEVER says, Pray to know if these things are true, They said, Yes the Bible does say that. They said, James says Pray for Wisdom. I told them praying for Wisdom is Different that praying to know if Something is true or not.

Wisdom tells me not to jump off a 100 story building Since gravity will pull me to my death, But Wisdom does not tell me that if I am out in the woods and I am starving what Mushrooms are not Poisonous. I have never seen the Poisonous mushrooms or Plants So in that case Wisdom cannot help.

Then I told the MM’s that if they keep reading into the Book of James, It speaks of Earthly and sensual, devilish wisdom.

So anyway, The MM’s PROMISED Me that today is the day that if I pray God will revel Himself to me and I will know the BoM is true. Now I pointed out to the MM’s that Every time I take this challenge and pray God tells me Jer 17:11 Acts 17:11 And JS is a false Prophet.

I told the MM’s why is it alw
Rick B on July 1st, 2009

Cont,
I was telling the MM’s, Why is it always put back onto me? Why is it I did not pray in a sincere way, or why is it I might have sin in my heart or some other motive? I told them they cannot Judge my heart.

So anyway Jim, God did speak to me on this matter. Before the LDS left they issued me the Prayer Challenge and asked if I wanted them to study up on anything to talk about. I said Study up on the Nature of God. Well God spoke to me and Here is What God wants ME to tell the MM’s.

He wants me to Issue the MM’s coming back a challenge to them. God wants me to tell the MM’s that instead of praying for truth, to Search the Scriptures, I have all these LDS books with Teaching from Prophets and Presidents, He wants me to Show these guys Contradictions and Changes made in their History.

I will be honest with these Guys and tell them that if they flat out tell me NO they do not want to see and discuss these issues then that means they are liars and refuse to see both Sides.

I suspect one of three things will happen and I will lay it out to them.

1. One of the two will want to take the challenge and look at these issues, but the other will not and talk him out of it.

2. They both will want to look into these things, But wont have time Today and will leave, then tell other MM’s about what happened and these other LDS will talk them out of it.

3. They both will want to look into these things, but will have to leave, then they will share with the Higher Authority’s, like the Stake President or someone, then that person will all of a sudden Declare to them, God just spoke to him and told him that these MM’s need to move to other area’s.

I will tell these Guy’s If any of this happens that God is speaking to them and I pray conviction will be STRONG upon their hearts. So the Mormons are going to be Issued a Challenge from God today, If they come back to my House. Rick b
Rick B on July 1st, 2009

One my First Post I put Jer 17:11, I meant Jer 17:9.
Rick b
falcon on July 1st, 2009

Mormonism holds to two different types of salvation. The first type of salvation is a kind of general salvation, universal in nature that all of mankind gets regardless of their life style or faith in Christ or lack of it. The second type of salvation has to do with becoming exalted as a god. This second type of “salvation” is dependent on “works” and has nothing to do with Christ or his death on the Cross.
Hell does not exist in Mormonism unless you’re an apostate Mormon and then you go to “outer darkness”. This latter point is a very good example of mind-control as practiced by cults of various types.
Now the fact that none of this is in the Bible is of very little concern for the Mormon. Because we see that this was all “revealed” to the man with the magic rock, the occultist practioner of magic arts, Joseph Smith. Isn’t it quite telling that Joseph Smith rejected the God of the Bible and the salvation he offers through His Son Jesus Christ, in favor of another gospel? Now what being out there in the spirit world would have as the foundation of his faith, the rejection of the God of the Bible, His Son, the Holy Spirit and (God’s) plan of salvation?
Very curious wouldn’t you agree. We have a guy, Joseph Smith, who had an “angel of light”, lead him to all of this, taking folks away from God’s redemtive plan substituting for it a plan that allows men to become gods themselves. Very appealing and seducing isn’t it?
Satan does indeed appear as an angel of light deceiving those who are willing to reject God and His Christ for another gospel that will result in their ultimate spiritual distruction.
Thinking they are wise, these people are fools.
Kevin on July 1st, 2009

Olsen,

Alas, 90% of everything on MC is opinion, inescapably; if it where all fact (even 50%), we would have nothing to talk about.

O.K., take my association between mass media and membership out of my comments, may be the decline is a coincidence. A decline none the less, over eight years is not an aberration. If you would have looked at the link I posted you would have seen the comparison with other religions that are growing. I did not make the comparison because, well frankly, I felt it would have been kicking dirt in the eye. My argument is about the trend of declining conversions, maybe eight years is short sighted, for most people that is at least 1/10 their life.

(IMO) MM’s are trained sales people, and in any organization if they sustained a 2% drop in businesses over 8 years, well that would cause concern to change tactics. LDS HQ is no different, the message may be the same, but the tactics have defiantly changed.
jackg on July 1st, 2009

olsen,

You speak as if the BOM is true. Well, I have read it many times–even in Swedish, and believed it was true. This is my opinion about the BOM: it has some good stuff in it. It also teaches principles that contradict what JS later writes. The BOM does not speak to a “spirit prison” where spirits will have the opportunity to hear the Mormon gospel. In fact, it specifically speaks to “today” being the day of our salvation, when men prepare to meet God. But, ultimately, as far as fictional writings go, I will take “Les Miserables” by Victor Hugo over it everytime. You see, the difference between a Mormon testimony and a Christian testimony is that the Christian testimony is tested against the Bible, whereas the Mormon testimony is totally existential in nature and, if it so happens to contradict biblical teaching, then it is the Bible that is wrong. There really is no comparison between the two testimonies. Like I said before, I thought the BOM was true. But, for the GRACE of God, I now know that it is merely the work of a man who, when tested against the Bible, is found to be a false prophet. One last thing, Olsen, I find it humorous that you attack Falcon. He is one of the great minds on this site. So, good luck as he responds to you. He is well-versed and able to communicate his thoughts in a way that makes perfect sense. You could learn from him. I suggest you humble yourself and accept the truth and grace God is offering you.

Peace and Grace!
st.crispin on July 1st, 2009

Kevin,

Your use of statistics is rather selective. If you were to consider the increase in convert baptisms in 2004 (241,239) to that in 2008 (265,593) this represents a 10% increase over a 4 year period. However, that is an anomaly.

For a more useful indication of the growth of the LDS consider the long term growth of the Church over the past 60 years from about 1.3 million to approximately 13.5 million. That represents a ten fold increase. Thus for the sake of the mathematical argument, if this same growth rate is maintained over the next 60 years the membership of the LDS Church will be 135 million. Of course such numbers do not reflect actual religious activity rates of individual members.

Andy/Berean,

I will address your questions tomorrow. In the meantime you can start packing your bags and I will fill up the baptismal fount for you.
falcon on July 1st, 2009

Ralph,
I don’t quite know how to address the personal information you shared on this blog yesterday. I’d just like you to know that I feel personally sad regarding your situation. I don’t know the particulars and I guess that’s not all that important in terms of feeling empathy for you. I don’t think it’s profane for me to say that this sort of thing really sucks. That’s American lingo for “a really bad deal”.
It’s strange but a couple of weeks ago I was out pounding the pavement with my road bike on the back country roads of west central Wisconsin where I live. A woman, I didn’t know, was walking alone towards me and I greeted here and then stopped to talk warning her about the black bears; only half in jest.
She lives near where I do (I found out as we talked) and she’s going through a really tough time. Her and her husband are both Christians, but he’s walked out on her leaving her and the three kids. He’s not happy (was the reason he gave for leaving). (I’m not suggesting that this is your situation.)
It wasn’t difficult to see that the lady was in real emotional pain.I told her I would pray for her and I have. I really had this over-whelming feeling that I should ask her if I could pray for her right there on the spot. I resisted this urge for a variety of reasons not the least of which was the appropriatness of doing such a thing.
However as a follower of Jesus Christ, I feel we have to minister to people where ever we find them. This means the location/place, as well as spiritually and emotionally. I know we don’t agree on much regarding religion however I sense that God is telling me to tell you to be patient. I have no clue what that means or even if it’s from the Lord, but I thought I’d pass it on to you.
I’ll continue in prayer for you that God will witness His will to you for your life.
mobaby on July 1st, 2009

A good example of the Church growth principle and how it relates to Biblical/God’s truth can be found in Noah. He preached about God’s judgment and the coming flood for 120 years – a message he received directly from God. Let’s see, he had a Church of what, 9 people? Hmmm, I am sure there were a lot more people involved with the local pagan mega-temple. But when the rain started, judgment literally fell on those who were in rebellion against God. So if your Church growth is going gang-busters, is off a little, or whatever – it literally has no bearing on whether you are truly preaching and teaching the holy scriptures and bringing people into a right relationship with the risen Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified for our sins. If Noah had adjusted his message and said “get on board to the express cruise liner to your own divinity – God loves you and wants to exalt and glorify you” – I am sure he could have had 10s of thousands of followers. Who would have all drowned in the flood along with their false preacher.
Enki on July 1st, 2009

Rick B,
What are YOU smoking?What does my eye color have to do with anything?

You stated “The Bible tells us The LAMB, “Jesus” Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

But after looking it up, it actually states the following: “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

The passage refers to people worshiping ‘the beast’, not to the cross or jesus.

“Jesus was Slain before the foundation of the earth. Jesus was planning before the foundation to go to the cross. So the Cross was around before the earth. Rick b”

So, what are you saying that he was slain twice? Its an interesting conversation. I never realized that the torah was considered a curse.

“This fact means that the curse Jesus did carry on the cross was not his own, it was ours. And by willingly taking the curse of the Torah on our behalf, he redeems both Israelites and gentiles from the curse which befell us all because we did not manage to obey the Torah.”
(from Theology Network)

By extension isn’t the N.T. a curse as well? Even as a former believer I never understood any portion of the Bible as being a curse.
Olsen Jim on July 1st, 2009

falcon- You know absolutely nothing about my knowledge of LDS doctrine. I am truly impressed that you do not become bored of posting the same talking points over and over- I have seen you say the same thing a million times over the last year. You don’t really seem to interact with responses or information that refutes your claims.

RickB- to answer your first question- I decided to post here because it is very clear that evangelical critics of the LDS church are completely blind to the weakness of their own standing. They have absolutely nothing to stand on whatsoever.

There is no authority in anything EVs are saying here- none. You are 2,000 years removed from anything authoritative. You worship Paul and the Bible. They prefer the words of Paul over those of Christ 99.9% of the time. You criticize what you perceive as LDS’ lack of academic inquiry into the Book of Mormon, yet I would argue that a much higher percentage of EVs have absolutely no idea how it is that we have the Bible and the process that result in its compilation. That includes EVs who post here. The EV view here is one closed in a box.

What you have is a book. Period. It is a holy and sacred book. But all you have is your interpretation of that book. And we have the same book and therefore at least as much authority as you.

The EV take, from what I have seen, is an open-ended take on church structure, authority, and orthodoxy. In other words, all of these things are very poorly defined- terms like “the mystical body of Christ,” or the “priesthood of believers” are a poor cover-up for the fact that you have nothing to stand on.

Yet EV critcs of LDS are models of pharisaical hair splitting and condemnation of others. They mince at minute details and love to exclude other people from Christ’s gospel on technicalities.
Olsen Jim on July 1st, 2009

Continued….

Rick- you contradict yourself. You are in essence arguing that God does not answer prayers from people when they are asking if something is true. Could there be a more sincere or important desire or supplication? Yet you turn around and say God has told you in detail what to say to the LDS missionaries. And He told you the BOM is not true. Make up your mind.

Without any authority or foundation on which to stand, EV critics are left with only the opinions of man on which to base their religion. And that is absolutely true. It is no different than a courtroom full of stuffy attorneys bickering over the nuances of the law. Whoever is most gifted in the art of debate wins for the moment. That is your religion as it interfaces with LDS in this format.

Jack- The BOM actually does speak of the spirit world. It doesn’t outline the process of redemption of the dead, but it clearly describes the period between death and the resurrection. This is something that EV cannot explain- at least I have never heard a decent explanation from them. What of the people who died before Christ’s resurrection- thousands of years worth of souls who died before Christ. What of their existence between their death and their resurrection? Or do EVs here not believe in a universal resurrection? If you do, what is your explanation for this period of time?
setfree on July 1st, 2009

Jim,

I’m sure what I have to say, you have heard before. But like me, there may be some reading this who haven’t been around long enough to have seen this particular argument.

It appears obvious and logical to me that what you are saying has a major flaw… that is, that you say that the Bible is old an corrupted and it has no authority, AND YET, when a Mormon wants to use a verse out of context, it suddenly has all the authority it needs. It’s just the verses the EV’s use that must be doubted.

An EV, on the other hand, sticks to a firm foundation of only the Bible. If what it says there is hard to decipher, then we have to take the entire Bible, yes, the Bible as a whole, into consideration before claiming that we understand the verse.

This is why, for example, it appears as though we prefer Paul to Jesus. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. He says a whole lot about the New Covenant. This does not mean we’re disregarding Jesus! The entire Bible is about Him, I’d say especially Paul’s letters! But taken as a whole, Jesus was finishing up the Old Covenant and spoke more to the Jews than He did to the Gentiles about the New Covenant. Therefore, even though His life was about the New Covenant, there are few verses written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that we can quote as representative of the New Covenant as a whole.

Can you understand what I’m trying to put across? I’m not the best writer.

If you can’t find Jesus from cover to cover in the Bible, then you don’t understand what the Bible is about. Therein lies one of the big problems in the communication between an EV and a Mormon.
setfree on July 1st, 2009

By the way, there is no “gospel” more exclusive than one that tells people that you must be keeping all your covenants (only one of which covenants is to keep all the commandments) or else Jesus will not be forgiving you.

(I am pretty sure that in short, this means you can be forgiven if you’re perfect, oh, and giving everything to the church, since that’s another covenant).

Check it out:
“When you have repented, and are baptized and confirmed… You make a covenant, or promise, with God to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, to follow Him, and to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, PROVIDED you keep your covenants”

http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
falcon on July 1st, 2009

Olsen, Jim
Thank you very much for confirming for me what I said in one of my previous posts and that is that the LDS posters keep saying I’m wrong but they never provide an example for how I am wrong about what I wrote. I maxed out on the word length on three posts and all you can say is that I repeat myself. You my friend have zero credibility. You ramble endlessly on things that require that you merely give opinions and blue sky speculation but you are void of any real scholarship. You, my friend, are a perfect product of LDS indoctrination. All emotion and no substance. Do the work man! If you were a student of mine I’d kick you out of class until you got serious and came prepared.

I’m all out of posts for today, but I’ll be waiting here in anticipation that you will actually provide something besides feelings based rebuttals with no content.
Ralph on July 1st, 2009

Falcon,,

You asked about where have we LDS shown you that you are wrong – well we have tried on a number of occasions but either you do not understand what we are saying, or you decide that you know better and go on with making the same comments without changing them. Let’s look at the comment you made today abouot Jesus and His atonement. Read 2 Nephi 9. I will highlight a few verses here because of limited space.

v 5-8 explain the importance of the resurrection especially v 8 -

v8 “O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.”

v 23 – 24 “And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.”

Since we believe that deeds/actions/works are a part of faith, then yes, we believe that we need to do something ‘towards’ our salvation – but WITHOUT FIRST faith in Jesus, all the good works/actions/deeds we do will amount to nothing
‘towards’ our salvation (Matt 25:31-40). It is through our faith in Jesus that we want to follow His will/commandments because we have been spiritually born of Him (Alma 5:14).

PS thanks for the kind words. I didn’t mean to give any personal info out but I didn’t want Okie to think I was mocking his predicament. Mine is that my wife has a mental illness and is very abusive to me and the children when she slips into a mood. I need to think of the children in this situation rather than myself and the love I have for my wife. Its difficult but I keep asking God for guidance and assistance, which He has given me in abundance.
Ralph on July 1st, 2009

Falcon,

I probably need to say a bit more about the Atonement. As you probably know we LDS teach that it had 2 parts that were very much equal in importance as seen from 2 Nephi 9. Two types of death came into the world when Adam and Eve ate the fruit – Physical death and Spiritual death. Jesus had to overcome both to allow us to get back to Heavenly Father. The Atonement, we believe, started in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was mainly here that Jesus Atoned for the sins of all people past, present and future and paid the price for us to God (Heavenly Father, not Himself). This part culminated on the cross when He felt left alone by Heavenly Father. We teach that the Father did withdraw His presence from Jesus because Jesus had to suffer Spiritual death just like we do in order to know how we feel to be able to succor us.

Then there is the physical death which Jesus overcame by the resurrection. Without this resurrection we would be left as spirits for eternity. As 2 Nephi 9:14 states, this means that we would become the Devil’s subjects and could not return to our Father’s presence. So this shows just how important the resurrection is.

So both the Resurrection and Jesus sufferring for our sins are equally important and are both very much a part of the atonement. It is not as you stated earlier.
jackg on July 2nd, 2009

Ralph,

The fact that you relegate the Cross to something secondary to Gethsemane is one of the host of reasons why Mormonism does not fall into the family of Christianity. The biblical apostles do not refer to the Garden of Gethsemane in their writings, but solely focus on the suffering Jesus went through on the Cross. Why are you ashamed of the Cross, Ralph? I suggest you read “The Radical Cross” by A.W. Tozer. Tozer does a good job of “scolding” Christians for taking the Cross too lightly in modern times.

Peace and Grace!
GRCluff on July 2nd, 2009

setfree:

Jesus will forgive me for every sin that I forsake before I die. He came to save me from my sins, not in my sins. That all we are saying.
setfree on July 2nd, 2009

here’s hopin you get em all forsaken then
jackg on July 2nd, 2009

Cluff,

Please clarify something for me: are you saying that we need to be sin-free before we are saved? Also, when you say, “Jesus will forgive me for every sin that I forsake before I die,” are you saying that there might be some sins that perhaps you did not forsake? If so, what will happen to you, based on what you believe, if you have not forsaken all of your sins? And, can you forsake your sins on your own power?

I just want to state that it seems you are looking at sin as a “thing” that can be removed. Is this a fair assessment of what you posted? I hope you see my questions as honest questions looking for answers so I can get a better grasp of what you actually believe. Looking forward to your response.

Peace and Grace!
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Jim Said

You worship Paul and the Bible.

Just how do you figure this to be true? I never said I worship Paul or the Bible, I clearly said I worship Jesus, I think this shows you either do not read what I write or you simply are lying.

Jim Also said

Rick- you contradict yourself. You are in essence arguing that God does not answer prayers from people when they are asking if something is true. Could there be a more sincere or important desire or supplication? Yet you turn around and say God has told you in detail what to say to the LDS missionaries. And He told you the BOM is not true. Make up your mind.

How do you figure I contradict myself? If your praying to a false god, then that god cannot answer you. Also I stated very clearly that according to LDS, At least they tell me this, If I take the Moroni Challenge and I do not feel your god is telling me the BoM is true, then somehow it is my fault.

I was not sincere or I am living in sin, or I somehow have un-pure motives. why is that?

Like the MM’s today told me, we need faith to know if these things are true, I agreed, But I also pointed out to them, their is a huge difference between Evidence plus faith, verses blind faith with out no evidence.

I gave two examples.

1. The Apostles and disciples did not simply follow Jesus because He said so, Jesus showed Evidence through Miracles, Raising people from the dead, Healing various people and other such works.

2. Many people blindly believe that it was OK to drink the Kool-aid, Guess what? THEY DIED. Many People believed that their was a space ship behind that Comet, Guess what? They Died, Many extreme Muslims believe that if they strap a bomb to their body and kill people they will have 72 virgins after death. All cases of Blind faith with out Evidence. Rick b
Ken on July 2nd, 2009

Rick B,
Thats interesting, but what about various miracles via non-christian religions? The LDS movement has also reported a number of miracles and various manifestations. Some LDS people report certain experiences that cause them to really believe, not always giving full details because of its sacred nature.

In one context, an LDS blogger stated an experience something akin to the BOM account of seeing the finger of god. Apparently LDS people believe its possible to have these experiences. Most christians really downplay these sorts of things. Not totally dismissing them, but maybe recognizing that ’something happened’ but that it was either a delusion or a false spiritual manefestation.
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Enki said

What does my eye color have to do with anything?

I guess you missed what I was saying, I was implying your eyes are brown. Get what I was saying yet?

Enki Said

So, what are you saying that he was slain twice? Its an interesting conversation. I never realized that the torah was considered a curse.

Jesus was not Slain twice, The plan was laid out before the foundation of the earth, It was the Plan all along for Jesus to come to the earth and Die. I never said the Torah was/is a curse, you said that.

Read the OT, The Cross is their, The Passover Shows the Cross, The Blood on the Door and Sides. Then when Moses laid out the people in the different camps they were placed in very specific lay out, the lay out of the camps formed a CROSS, So when God was looking down from Heaven He saw the Cross. Then the Prophecy of Jesus being Crucified and His Garments being gambled for and His beard being ripped out.

This Prophecy is so detailed, Many Non-Believers teach it was written after the fact. So the cross is in the OT, Before “Christians” were called Christians.

Speaking of Curses, the Bible tells us All who die upon tree’s are Cursed. Yes Jesus was cursed for us, and the Bible tells us that all who try and live under the law are cursed. Mormons try and live the law, So I guess your cursed.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Rick b
Ralph on July 2nd, 2009

JackG,

Maybe I was not clear enough in my last posts. Let me try and rephrase what I said.

Both Jesus suffering to pay the price for our sins and His death and resurrection were equally important to our salvation. Without one or the other we could not be saved.

Also I said that Jesus suffering to pay for our sins started in Gethsemane and finished on the cross when Heavenly Father left Him alone so He could feel what spiritual death was like so that He would know how to succor us better(something a Trinity-like god could not do). So the cross was the central part where it all came together, but it started in Gethsemane.

No where did I say that the cross was secondary.
falcon on July 2nd, 2009

Ralph,
You make the claim that you’ve shown where I’m wrong and I simply repeat the samt thing. Ralph your latest answer attests to the fact that you don’t address my points. So once again, I have to repeat them. There is no refutation of what I’ve said in your response. You simply take off, for the most part, in another direction. For example, I never referenced the resurrection so I don’t know where you are going with that and so your reference to 2 Nephi has me asking “What?”
You did reference the Garden of Gethsemane and by doing so you just made my point for me. Again, this idea that this is where the atonement “started” is pure Mormonism, it’s not supported by God’s Word, and it is a rejection of the cross as the place where the atonement took place. There’s a reason why Satan wants the completness of the work of atonement at the cross to be distorted. It was at the cross that Satan was defeated not in the Garden.
The sum total of what you have given us is pure Mormonism and doesn’t rfute anything I’ve written. You’ve determined to go down another trail.
The point is that Mormonism rejects the cross of Christ as both a symbol of the atonement and the place of the atonement. You’ve pointed that out yourself unwittingly by your answer.
Ralph, you’ve made a decision to reject the God of the Bible and His plan of salvation. You’ve determined to follow a false prophet with a false gospel. We’ve patiently walked you through God’s plan of salvation over and over again and you continue to reject it.
Paige, in her video testimony, talked about her journey in coming to Christ. You’d be wise to take to heart what she has offered here.
Martin_from_Brisbane on July 2nd, 2009

Olsen Jim wrote “I am truly impressed that you do not become bored of posting the same talking points over and over..There is no authority in anything EVs are saying here- none. You are 2,000 years removed from anything authoritative. You worship Paul and the Bible. They prefer the words of Paul over those of Christ 99.9% of the time.”

Since Jim wrote these very words (almost verbatim, if I recall correctly) on a separate thread a couple of weeks back, I’d say he just shot himself in the foot.

Anyhow, I’ll ask the same questions I asked back then;

Do you think Paul preached a different Gospel to Jesus?

Do you think the “true” Gospel (whatever it is) can’t be found in the Bible? Is that why you don’t trust it?

As far as authority is concerned, perhaps you can answer this. In Jesus’ parable of the Talents, on what authority did the good servants have to go and invest their master’s money? (Matt 25:14-30)
GRCluff on July 2nd, 2009

jackg:

Good questions, heres how I see it:

As an imperfect person, I sin every day. When God humbles me enough so I can recognize my sin, I may be able to forsake it entirely. In that case, for that sin I am covered- because Christ paid the price for sin.

From time to time, with Gods help, I can abandon all sin, perhaps even have no desire to sin. That is a blessing that God grants to the righteous, yes even to Mormons. Then I am covered for all sin. You see how it works?

Now, if I fail to abandon a sin, I eventually come to love that sin more than I love God. That sin is NOT covered. Even if I have accepted Christ, I have to pay the price for that sin myself. It could take a while, and could be painful- the pains of hell I would guess.
GRCluff on July 2nd, 2009

In case some other Mormon begins disagree that this is proper doctrine, let me give my source:

D&C 138:58
The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

Who pays the penalty for sins abandoned after death? The dead themselves do, of course. That is because Christs atonement applies to sins abandoned in the flesh. That is why murder is so wrong- it takes aways a souls opportunity to repent. You get it now?
Ralph on July 2nd, 2009

Falcon,

You said ”Mormonism holds to two different types of salvation. The first type of salvation is a kind of general salvation, universal in nature that all of mankind gets regardless of their life style or faith in Christ or lack of it. The second type of salvation has to do with becoming exalted as a god. This second type of “salvation” is dependent on “works” and has nothing to do with Christ or his death on the Cross.”

What I wrote refutes the second part of your comment. We do not believe in salvation by works without Jesus Christ. Reread what I wrote I said ”v 23 – 24 “And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.”

Since we believe that deeds/actions/works are a part of faith, then yes, we believe that we need to do something ‘towards’ our salvation – but WITHOUT FIRST faith in Jesus, all the good works/actions/deeds we do will amount to nothing ‘towards’ our salvation (Matt 25:31-40). It is through our faith in Jesus that we want to follow His will/commandments because we have been spiritually born of Him (Alma 5:14).”

Do you see what I have said? Without faith in Jesus Christ our good works amount to nothing towards our salvation. It is through our faith in Jesus Christ that we want to follow His commands/path/way/life/whatever else you wish to put in here.

And what is wrong in saying that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane (where He suffered greatly) and then finishing on the cross where He suffered both spiritual and physical death? The real fact is it finished a few days later outside the tomb when He was resurrected. The cross was the central point of the whole process.
falcon on July 2nd, 2009

Ralph,
I’ll answer your last point first. “what is wrong in saying that the atonement started in the Garden of Gethsemane?” It’s wrong Ralph because it’s not Biblical. It’s that simple. Jesus atoned for our sins on the cross, period. It’s where He died. His death atoned for our sins. These Mormon add-ons are scripturally inacurate and just more examples of why Mormonism is not Christianity.
To your first point, in Mormonism salvation is universal. Everyone gets saved at some level regardless of whether they have faith in Christ or if they were the worst pervert that ever lived. It’s an unconditional salvation-immortality. There is no hell in Mormonism. There is just outer darkness for apostate Mormons.
Mormons cannot become gods based on Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. Mormons have to earn this level of salvation. It is not depended on what Jesus did, but what the Mormon does to earn it.
First of all, the whole concept of becoming a god is unBiblical as is the Mormon teaching regarding the nature of God. In fact the whole deal is bizarre and shows how totally out in left field Mormonism is. A born again Christian sees through this lie of Satan. Ralph you need to get yourself born again and delivered from this deception of the devil. It’s beyond me why you don’t get it while someone like Paige (in the video does).
falcon on July 2nd, 2009

The foundation of the atonement is based on these facts:
1. God is love and God is holy.
2. God’s Law expresses his nature or person.
3. We rebelled and deserve punishment.
4. Our rellion made us enemies of God.
5. Sin stands between God and man, and judgment is inevitable.

The Cross is the center of Christianity. Simply put, Christ died on the cross for our sins. Christ’s death was a vicarious (in the place of)suffering and death. Isaiah 53:5-6, Romans 5:8, II Corinthians 5:21, I Corinthians 15:3, Mark 10:45, John 10:11
When God sent Christ to die, it was actually God who died. Christ’s death was a satisfaction, and it removes the obstacles that stand between God and man. It satisfies the justice of God. The Lamb of God takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29. The blood of the passover lamb, Christ, causes death to pass by us. I Corinthians 5:7 Christ’s blood cleanses us. Hebrews 9:14 Christ is called a sacrifice and an offering. Ephesians 5:2. Christ purchased us. Galatians 3:13 Christ ransomed us. Matthew 20:28 Christ reconciled us. Romans 5:10 Reconciled means to straighten out the problem. Christ death on the cross satisfies the Law of God. The requirements of the Law that are satisfied through Christ’s death are simply, do not sin and be perfectly righteous; which none of us can keep. II Corinthians 5:21 and Philippians 3:9
Now, it is God’s will that any should perish, but some do. It is God’s will that allcome to repentance, but not all do (II Peter 3:9)
Some people do not accept Christ and are lost even though Christ died for them. God offers His free gift of salvation to everyone. He holds it out to us. We need to receive it by faith.
Ralph on July 2nd, 2009

Falcon,

I shall repeat 2 Nephi 9:23-24 “having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.” When we refer to the Kingdom of God is the Celestial Kingdom. This verse clearly states that without perfect faith in Jesus Christ we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. One of our leaders has said that anything short of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation, not salvation. So you are wrong in your statement. Yes we believe that works/actions are a large part of our faith and that our faith will be judged on these, but regardless of what one does – even if they belong to the LDS church, are a stake president and go to the temple each month – without faith in Jesus they cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom.
falcon on July 2nd, 2009

Ralph,
See here’s where Mormonism suffers from a lack of a systematic theology. You say that “One of our leaders has said”….Ralph a lot of your leaders have said a lot of things that leads to a “count, doesn’t count” type of approach with no clear definite line of thinking. So anything short of the Celestial Kingdom is damnation. That statement does not reflect what the “anything short” is. That’s that leaders opinion that “anything short” is damnation. That’s probably because he shooting for the big enchalata, becoming a god. Anything short of becoming a god is damnation in his point of view. In the Mormon program, it might not be that bad. What if somebody isn’t interested in being a god? What if a woman marries some slacker who just isn’t working the program.
Ralph it’s all a joke from beginning to end. It’s not Biblical and it reflects Joseph Smith going totally off the tracks in Nauvoo, which incidentally led to his death. I think you better check out the Community of Christ or the Temple Lot Mormon group. They give a picture of Mormonism prior to Joseph Smith taking his “prophet” status to the next level; coming up with these truly off-the-wall doctrines and practices. They guy was off the bubble from the start, but when he got his momentum up, he really went haywire.
Christ death Ralph, made it possible for you to work your way into the Celestial Kingdom. You can’t get there on Christ’s sacrifice alone. That’s the bottom line. It really doesn’t matter anyway because the Celestial Kingdom doesn’t exist nor does man attaining godhood.
Ralph, I’m concerned about your soul and that you should find God and salvation through Jesus Christ. You know better Ralph.
Olsen Jim on July 2nd, 2009

Setfree,

I said nothing about the Bible being “corrupt or flawed.” Merely that the vast majority of Christians, including the non-LDS people here have no idea how it came to be. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of LDS critics who slam mormons for not having a more academic understanding the the BOM.

RickB- You worship the Bible because you see it as the ultimate authority on everything. You elevate it above God and His prophets. EV critics undermine the virtue of the Bible when they say things like “a person cannot know that the BOM is true,” or “there must be evidence to confirm revelation.” Do they not understand they are attacking the very means by which the revelations in the Bible were received? Apparently not.

As far as you not receiving an answer to your prayers regarding the BOM- don’t ask me- I can’t judge your heart. I know the promise is real and true. That is between you and God.

Evidence- did Christ not say that “an adulterous generation seeketh a sign?”

Martin: you asked “Do you think Paul preached a different Gospel to Jesus?”
No. But Paul, as a man, had a perspective of his own and a style of teaching. And those teachings were directed toward people with pagan backgrounds who needed certain things emphasized to overcome that background. Christ had a perfect perspective and perfect manner of teaching. I will side with His perspective and words over any others.
“Do you think the “true” Gospel (whatever it is) can’t be found in the Bible? Is that why you don’t trust it?”
I believe in the Bible as scripture- is it infallible? NO. It is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. I do trust the Bible, but I do not elevate it above God.
“On what authority did the good servants have to go and invest their master’s money?” What does this have to do with anything I have said? This parable is about sharing one’s testimony and the gifts which God has bestowed upon us. It has nothing to do with the Priesthood.
Olsen Jim on July 2nd, 2009

falcon- You clearly do not want Mormons to be Christians and will say anything to promote your talking points. Your gripe about Gethsemane vs. Golgotha is silly and shows little understanding the atonement. You said that “His death atoned for our sins…..Christ died on the cross for our sins.” Is this your understanding? That the death of His body was the act that atoned for the sins of mankind? If so, this drastically minimizes His great achievement, suffering, and greatness. Ever seen Mel Gibson’s movie The Passion? What was the scene in the garden about? Apparently there are others who view the atonement as involving the garden as we do. Although you do not see it, you are truly minimizing the atonement in your view.

Christ suffered for the sins of mankind in Gethsemane for roughly 3 hours. After being whipped, mocked, judged, and condemned, and after being nailed to the cross, he again suffered for sin on the cross for about 6 hours before “giving up the ghost.” There are other individuals that have been crucified. That was the “tip of the iceberg” in the case of Jesus. He endured infinitely more than could be inflicted upon Him by the lashings and crucifixion. And you accuse us of not understanding or appreciating the atonement?
setfree on July 2nd, 2009

Ralph,

Before I start, I want you to know that I know I can’t do the subject justice here. I’m only hoping to point you to the one who can help you.

Ralph, two questions: 1- if you were to leave your wife alone with her mental illness, who would take care of her? and 2- is she and/or are your children hoping for the split?

You asked earlier if a man would be forgiven, based on the Bible “gospel”, if he left his wife.

The answer is yes, a born-again believer is always forgiven. But that’s the short answer.

Speaking from my understanding of the Bible as a whole, God does not approve of divorce. Read Matthew 5:31-32, 19:7-8, or Mark 10:4-9, and then 1 Cor 7.

But there’s a lot more that needs to be said. I am facing the challenge of having you be able to understand what I’m saying when we are coming from two opposing views of God, ourselves, and sin. Nevertheless, God put it on my heart (in the middle of last night even) to try, so I am.

Ralph, I believe that God allows into our lives problems that we cannot conquer by ourselves so that we can find out that we need Him.

And when we put down our pretenses (for example, if we stop faking that we are anywhere close to righteous) and seek Him out, He forgives us and heals us. Right? Isn’t that what He did? Hebrews 13:8.

You cannot help your wife by your own efforts. And I’m sorry for putting this in here because it’s a difference in our beliefs, but you surely can not get the Melchezidek Priesthood to do it. That is a subject all it’s own, so I won’t do it further argument right here.

Only our awesome God, of whom Jesus is the physical representation, can truly heal her. Only He can help you. Because He alone understands everything about your entire situation, He is the best one to trust with it.

God doesn’t take all of the hardships out of our way, but through them, shows us His power, His love, His mercy.
One woman’s testimony of leaving Mormonism « Defending. Contending. on July 2nd, 2009

[...] Paige Richardson shares her story of how she came out of the Mormon church, and safely into the arms of the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, from the Manti Evangelism seminar (hat tip: Mormon Coffee) [...]
setfree on July 2nd, 2009

(continued)

Ralph,

Because God is good, He has given us instructions. These are not things that we must do to achieve some big honor for ourselves. Rather, they are wisdom from an omniscient God who loves us and wants to help us steer clear of danger.

When He says not to leave your wife, it’s not because He can’t forgive you through Jesus’ atonement if you do. It’s because any time you sin, you are bringing into your life the consequences of that sin. In the case of leaving your wife, some of the consequences might be that your children will learn to walk away from someone they love who needs help. Another might be that your children hold it against you that their mother was left by herself in her illness. Another might be that your children never learn that the best thing you can do is to TRUST JESUS with EVERY PROBLEM, because they won’t get the opportunity to see you do it, and get firsthand experience that JESUS CAN BE TRUSTED by the results Jesus accomplishes.

Let me state again, in case it got lost in the above, that God’s commandments are to benefit us.
God loves us. He knows us. He understands what we go through, and why.

He gives us instruction to help us. He forgives us because we fail. He doesn’t beat us because we fail, but rather let’s the consequences come so that next time, we’ll know to trust Him instead of ourselves.

Ralph, Jesus is the answer to your problems, all of them. But to find Him, you have to realize that you are a sinner, get on your knees, and ask Him to personally save you. (You also need to remember that Jesus is who He says He is, and not our older spirit brother.) You have to be willing to give up yourself and your self-efforts and self-praising and confess that He alone is God. What you’ll find through the rest of your life, beginning at that prayer, is an awesome experience, put together for you by an awesome God, who can work all things together for the good of those who love Him (Rom 8:28).
setfree on July 2nd, 2009

(one more continuation for Ralph)

The Christians that come on this site are hoping to expose you to a Jesus you’ve never met before. Not one who Lived and died, what else is there to know? But the Jesus who is personally involved in our lives, who we can count on no matter what to work in our lives the absolute best, and will accomplish it! (Phl 1:6)

Our biggest problem is OURSELVES. But we have a patient, long-suffering God who is willing to take us as we are and make a new creature out of us… willing and wanting to make a beautiful work out of the trash heap of our lives and our own efforts.

I didn’t write this because I think you are going to leave your wife. I wrote this because you made an honest admission about a problem that you cannot fix. I wrote this because a lot of us start there (with an impossible problem) trying to find God. I’m hoping, for your sake and that of your family’s, that you’ll bend your knee and confess Him, and let Him today become the God of your life.

In Him…
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Jim Said

RickB- You worship the Bible because you see it as the ultimate authority on everything. You elevate it above God and His prophets.

Jim, I recall Jesus Quoting the Bible, So does that mean Jesus Worships the Bible? Have you ever read these verses.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

These verses speak about the word of God. Also you said many things are missing from the Bible. Why is it as of Right now NO LDS PROPHET/PRESIDENT has never corrected them?

Also You cannot speak for Shem, But you sure seem to be able to speak for your Church and seem to speak for me, so do you care to explain why LDS claim they can and Do answer questions, But then never do?

If you do not believe me, Go back to the start of this thread and Read SHEM SAYING he answers questions, Then read my Question to him that I asked on another Thread, Then notice how he seems to have Gone MIA Rick b
Ken on July 2nd, 2009

Rick B,
Real nice there, what a way to ‘earn points’. Its ok really, go about your business.
Enki on July 2nd, 2009

Falcon,
You said the following:
“Hell does not exist in Mormonism unless you’re an apostate Mormon and then you go to “outer darkness”. This latter point is a very good example of mind-control as practiced by cults of various types.
Now the fact that none of this is in the Bible …”

How very hypocritical. Christians have been using their concept of ‘hell’ as a form of mind control. There also is something in the Bible about some sin which is said to be unforgiven.
Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10).

I don’t know if NON-LDS christians view this exactly the same, but something was said.
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Ken, I’m not looking to earn points, I’m simply saying LDS are dishonest and Lie. Not to say I I’ve been 100 percent perfect all my life.

But I am not a PC person, If you guys claim you can or will answer questions then you better be aware I will hold you accountable to that, and will point out time and again when it appears LDS lied.

LDS harp on being Perfect and Doing Works and claiming the Moral highground, You guys claim to be better than others because you do not lie, cheat, or supposedly Attack others. But when you guys fail and do, do this, And I point it out, As usual you dodge the Question. I never saw you answer the Question.

If you really care about us coming to the truth as you teach, Maybe you could be part of the solution, Since your either part of the solution or your part of the problem.

I know since it has been stated before, even Christian’s tire of me calling LDS to account, But just because some Christians want to please you guys by going PC, I refuse. Either Be honest and do as you say, or be honest and admit your liars. Rick b
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Enki said

How very hypocritical. Christians have been using their concept of ‘hell’ as a form of mind control.

I think you need to by the red letter edtion, all the Words of Jesus are in red so you cannot miss them, Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. So if Jesus spoke it and you claim to believe the Bible then we have a problem. Do you really read the Bible? Rick b
subgenius on July 2nd, 2009

wow, so many evangelicals and so little Kool-Aid. Does anyone not see the obvious bias nature of this original post? how many mormon-to-evangelic-to-mormon stories and anecdotes are there? since when did anecdotal evidence become truth?
You, any of us, are incapable of correctly declaring salvation, but yet here we go.
glass houses and a handful of stones
Rick B on July 2nd, 2009

Subgenius said

wow, so many evangelicals and so little Kool-Aid.

I suppose Just like JS passed it out, your here to do the same. Call it Kool aid or a false Gospel, Either way, Your false Gospel only leads to eternal death. Rick b
subgenius on July 2nd, 2009

Rick B
“eternal death”? way to pass judgement…glad to see your faith allows such things.
Ralph on July 2nd, 2009

Falcon,

Christ overcame physical and spiritual death. Spiritual death is being absent from the presence of Heavenly Father (in the LDS perspective not living in in the CK; in Ev perspective not getting into heaven). In the back of the ‘Preach My Gospel’ manual that the missionaries teach from it has a glossary and under salvation it says that salvation is eternal life, or living in the presence of Heavenly Father for the eternities. This means that salvation is only in the CK – which backs up the statement I referred to by the church leader. We also teach that the only way to gain the CK is through “perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel”. Who is the Holy One of Israel? Jesus Christ. It is as I have said, we can only gain the CK through faith in Jesus Christ. We do not work our way there as you are saying. All those who gain the Terrestrial and Tellestial Kingdoms are not in a state of salvation but damnation. Yes the conditions there are better than on this earth at this point in time but that is only because of 2 things – 1) There will be no physical pain, sufferring or illnesses like there is here; 2) Those who are in the Terrestrial kingdom will get to have Jesus administer to them. Apart from that, all living in those kingdoms will have a perfect knowledge of their sins and that they fell short of eternal life and that will be their torment for the eternities. It would be like when you kick yourself because something happened and you knew that you knew better but didn’t act that way only only much worse.

Setfree,

I have always gone to God for help and guidance in these circumstances and He has always given it to me. When the burden becomes too much something happens and it is relieved. I rely on Him quote often. So how can you say I don’t have Him in my life when He performs many miracles for me?
falcon on July 3rd, 2009

Well Ralph the plot thickens!

Salvation is only in the CK. That’s a word game Ralph, but it’s your program so you can call “salvation” anything you please.

“The only way to gain CK is through faith, we do not work our way….”; well that’s good; so now you can get off the little gerbal wheel of Mormonism. You don’t have to do anything. Just have faith in Jesus and you will go to the CK and become a god. Don’t go and play dress-up in the Mormon temple, drop paying the Mormon machine their 10%, turn down callings to spend more time doing things you really enjoy, skip church services a couple of times a month, have a cup of coffee and a beer now and then because your entrance into the CK is based purely on faith in Jesus. You don’t have to do anything to gain the CK and become a god.
I am so enlightened tonight. I thought it was faith plus something to get into the CK and be a god. It’s all by faith. Ralph cut loose tonight and have a Coke and watch a PG movie!
Ralph on July 3rd, 2009

Ahh Falcon, Falcon, Falcon,

I hate the taste of Coke so I’d probably go more for the Hot Chocolate. And PG movie – are you kidding me? The only rating allowed to be watched is G rated or less. PG is too risque these days what with all that kissing and stuff they allow in it.

Well it looks as though you do understand what I am talking about, you just don’t want to admit it so we can’t tell you where and when you are wrong. But if you want me to spell it out for you – I…T. Is that good enough?
jackg on July 3rd, 2009

Cluff,

Thank you for answering, but I must admit that I am left confused by what you said. I am especially confused and bothered by this statement you made: “Even if I have accepted Christ, I have to pay the price for that sin myself.” Where do you get the idea that you can actually pay for your sins? If that were the case, why is there a need for Jesus Christ? A statement like this is why Mormonism is not considered a Christian faith. It is truly dangerous and bothersome.

Blessings!
Rick B on July 3rd, 2009

Subgenius said

“eternal death”? way to pass judgement…glad to see your faith allows such things.

Sub, I guess you have two options here.

1. Answer my question.
Why Can Paul say in Gal 1:8-9 that if anyone preaches any other Gospel they will be Damned to hell.

Also Paul said If you do not love Jesus you will be Damned.

1Cr 16:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Plus if you read the Words of Jesus, He spoke more of Hell and Judgment than Heaven. Read the Book of Jude, He speaks of eternal damnation and the torment to come.

Read 2Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Plus many other Verses. So why can these guys make these bold claims But I cannot. Please answer me, Other wise go with Choice two.

2. Dodge the Question, Change the Subject, Just speak more empty words that do not answer the question. I guess you have a choice. Rick b
falcon on July 3rd, 2009

Ralph, Ralph, Ralph,
I fed back to you what you gave me which was that you will become a god and enter the CK based on your faith in Jesus Christ. So you can now try to blow the whole deal off, but you are either entering and making it to godhood based on your faith in Christ as you said or you have to work your way in as you wrote before. You can’t have it both ways Ralph. I caught you buddy, as I have before and now you don’t know where to go with it.
Here’s the bottom line Ralph. There is no CK and no godhood. You’re stuck in a system that cannot provide for you anything but ultimate spiritual destruction. You’ve bought into a lie and now you’re stuck defending it, spinning it and backpedaling. Nice try Ralph but you contradicted your previous posts.
Spin away friend.
falcon on July 3rd, 2009

It’s been fun watching Ralph’s position “evolve” as we have been having this discussion. Suddenly he’s doing the Mormon “me to” line, giving way to the Christian postion that our reward as believers is to be in the presence of God and that being in the presence of God is based soley on our acceptance of Christ sacrifice. Is this typical Mormon or what?
The fact of the matter is that Mormonism, first of all rejects the teaching that the Son’s very point of death itself was an act of atonement. Secondly in Mormonism it’s all about becoming a god and that Christ’s sacrifice (divided between the Garden and the Cross not the Cross alone) made individual exaltation to godhood possible for those who, through self-effort, prove themselves worthy of that reward. So this whole Mormon spin about being in the presence of God based on faith in Christ is just an attempt to “sound” Christian.
Here is what Mormonism rejects:
Christ’s atoning sacrifice entirely on the cross (Ep;hesians 5:2) and his subsequent resurrection (John 20) provided the way whereby all of us were reconciled to God (Romans 5:10); 2 Corinthians 5:19). And for those who accept Him as their Savior and Lord, their faith is accounted to them as righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). All one’s sins, along with the penalty for them, are washed away by His sacrifice (Isaiah 53:10; Jeremiah 31:34; Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24). Through Him we receive eternal life (dwelling eternally in God’s presence) as an uterly free gift, “not by works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
Now we know it’s the Mormon game to try and obfuscate the truth of what they believe in order to sound like mainstream Christians. We have seen that demonstrated here. Mormons don’t know the God of the Bible, His Christ or His plan of salvation. That much is very clear.
Ralph on July 3rd, 2009

Falcon,

I have not back-peddled nor have I contradicted my previous posts. I said in one of my previous posts that faith is belief and works – as it says in the Bible, faith without works is dead. I also said that our faith will be judged by our works. And again I said that our works come from our faith in Jesus and that no matter what we do in this life (and I gave an example) without that faith in Jesus our works will mean nothing towards our salvation. If we have true/pure faith in Jesus we will do whatever He wants us to do – which are our works through faith. What our disagreement here is what Jesus wants us to do.

So without faith in Jesus, no matter what one does they will not receive salvation – they may go to the Terrestrial or Tellestial Kingdom but they will not gain the Celestial Kingdom. With pure faith in Jesus we will be willing to do what He wants us to do. So we are not working our way to the CK without Jesus – it is through Jesus and our faith in Him that we do the works He has asked us to do. This totally contradicts what you keep saying about the LDS church and this is where you are wrong.

What He has asked us to do is slightly different between your faith and mine – unless you agree with Luther that one can commit thousands of murders and adulteries a day and still get into heaven just because they claim a belief in Jesus.

So main point on this is that faith and works cannot be separated as our faith is ultimately judged on our works as taught in the Bible and faith without works is dead. But with faith in Jesus no one is working their way to the CK if they follow His commands. And without faith in Jesus, no matter what one does they will not get into the CK
falcon on July 3rd, 2009

Yes, there is a major difference between what Mormons and Christians see as salvation and what the relationship is between faith and works. This is to be expected because Mormonism is not Christianity. So you can have your discussions regarding faith/works with another Mormon and it will have meaning since Mormons have accepted Joseph Smith’s creation. That claim of his to be restoring the original gospel is fraudulent. You know that also. You’ve had the information presented to you with solid references but you choose to belief a faux feeling as a test for truth. Major mistake. You also know who God is and He’s not a glorified man who became a god. There is no scriptural support for this blasphemy. You have had all of that information presented to you and you’ve been running away from it. You have no defense.
You finally hit the nail on the head when you said that in Mormonism faith means nothing to your salvation without your works. What you are working towards, your salvation, is becoming a god. The scriptures don’t support any notion of such a thing, you know that also.
In the Good News, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a person recognizes their hopelessly lost condition and recognizes that God has provided a means by which the penalty for our sins are paid for by the death of His Son Jesus Christ on the cross. Having repented of our sins and received Jesus as our Savior through faith we become born again and the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us. Through the Spirit we experience the process of sanctification so that our behavior/works are transformed. The transformed life we lead is in gratitude for what God did for us through Jesus on the Cross. When we die we enter God’s presence based on what He did for us at the Cross.
The Luther reference you made is just a total red herring. We’ve been over this with the Mormons on this blog countless times and they just keep repeating the same thing when they know better. You know better Ralph. You’re just playing games.
falcon on July 3rd, 2009

Ralph,
Contributors associated with this blog have gone to great lengths with you to assure that you’ve been provided with accurate information regarding the nature of God and God’s plan of salvation. But instead of getting serious regarding these topics and showing respect for the interest that has been taken in your personal salvation, you total ignore the efforts and choose instead to tread water. God has seen fit to provide you with the information that will bring you to a saving knowledge of His grace and you ignore it.
That’s the difference Ralph between Paige, whose testimony is the subject of this thread, and you. She made an honest inquire and had a heart that was willing to receive what God had for her no matter what the cost. Your goal is to maintain the status quo because the cost of following Jesus the the Good News of His Gospel is too much for you. You indeed have “rich young ruler” syndrome. He walked away from Christ because he felt the price was too high to pay. That price was to surrender his wordly goods and postion for what God was offering Him in eternity. I would guess that it was not just his possessions but the status that those posessions brought him. In the case of Mormons the status is what is garnered down at the wards and also the lie they’ve bought regarding becoming gods themselves.
Enki on July 4th, 2009

Rick B,
Your reference to ‘brown eyes’ left yourself too open to interpretation. It could have been seen as a racist remark. It could have been seen as a personal attack, I believe that is something which is strictly forbidden at Mormon Coffee. Comments like that do not advance the discussion in any way. I think that is what Ken was getting at that you are not ‘earning points’.

You said the following,

“I think you need to by the red letter edtion, all the Words of Jesus are in red so you cannot miss them, Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven. So if Jesus spoke it and you claim to believe the Bible then we have a problem. Do you really read the Bible?”

It still remains that the christian version of hell is a form of mind control. And it is hypocritical for a fundementalist chrisitian to say that mormons are using mind control with their version of hell.

So, just deal with the bible passages if you really want to make a point. (Matt. 12: 31-32 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10). It sort of sounds like these are saying that once your a christian, and you say its not true, you cannot be forgiven of this sin.

I believe that this is another tactic of Islam. In fact I have heard that you can be legally killed in some arabic countries if you leave islam or denounce it after being a muslim. Sounds like thought control to the highest degree. The original statement came from falcon, saying that Mormons were using mind control, well others did also. If the nazarene spoke more about hell than heaven, then he used it also…
Ralph on July 4th, 2009

Falcon,

Just because you and others have shown me a list of scriptures and some writings of people from hundreds of years ago does not mean that I agree with your interpretation of the scriptures nor the writings of those non-authoritative people. Yes, they do make sense and are a plausible interpretation, but they do not fit with what I have decided to believe in – and as I have said I have had my proof besides spiritual proof. It has nothing to do with the ‘cost’ of changing being too high. And I do appreciate all who have contributed to my education about the Trinity. I have been finding out a lot and understanding more about the ideology of the Trinity.

As far as works goes – what happens if you did decide to start living a life of debauchery now? Would you still get into heaven? If not why not? If your works stop you from getting into heaven then logically they do have a role in your salvation. I keep coming back to this – faith without works is dead. If you do not have works to compliment your faith it is DEAD. That means regardless of what you have faith in it will do you no good because it is DEAD. So please answer the questions at the beginning of this paragraph.
Rick B on July 4th, 2009

Sub said

I believe that this is another tactic of Islam. In fact I have heard that you can be legally killed in some arabic countries if you leave islam or denounce it after being a muslim. Sounds like thought control to the highest degree. The original statement came from falcon, saying that Mormons were using mind control, well others did also. If the nazarene spoke more about hell than heaven, then he used it also…

Maybe it’s just me, but it seems your dodging the issue.

Where Did I mention Islam Killing people? Where Did I mention Mind control? I cannot speak for Falcon, and His statement is not what I was speaking about.

But since you seem to want to say Jesus might have used speaking of Hell as a form of Mind Control then I guess you LDS have a problem.

The Problem is, If you cannot take Jesus at His word and Believe Him when He speaks of Hell, then you make Him a liar. If He lied and you cannot trust Him, then Why bother Reading or Quoting the Bible? Then If this Jesus Cannot be trusted, then how can you read or trust the BoM since it is this same Jesus from the Bible that supposedly went to visit America and gave the word over their.

Now as to Hell, Jesus told a story that I believe was true and not simply a parable, He spoke of the Rich man dying and being in torment in Hell. I believe it is true because this is a story Jesus used a person by Name, unlike parables where He did not mention people by names.

So How do you handle this story? Is it simply Mind control by Jesus?

Also Why would Jesus say this if Hell is not Real?

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Did Jesus Lie? Rick b
jackg on July 4th, 2009

Enki,

Could you please explain to me what you believe the Christian version of hell to be? Then, please show where that version contradicts the biblical text. Then, please explain to me what the Mormon version of hell is, and support that version with the biblical text. Thank you.

Peace and Grace!
setfree on July 5th, 2009

Enki,

There is a difference between mind control and what Jesus did (and consequently, what Bible-believers teach).

For one thing, Jesus didn’t get 10% of everybody’s money, forcibly (or no CK!). What He did, He did out of love.

Let me give you an illustration:

Suppose I tell my young children “Don’t run out in the road or you could get hit by a car AND DIE!”

Am I trying to get their money, their loyalty, their admiration?

No! I am trying to keep them from GETTING KILLED!
Or even getting hurt! I don’t want them to SUFFER!

Jesus, when speaking of hell, was doing the same thing for us.
Ralph on July 6th, 2009

Setfree,

We have no record of Jesus asking for tithing while on this earth, although he highly commended the widow giving her 2 mites. He also told the rich young man to sell all he owned and give it to the poor and follow Him in order to be saved – this shows we must be willing to sacrifice everything including money for God. In Acts 2, 4 and 5 we find that the early church (and thus God) REQUIRED that the members give all that they had to the church – the church would then redistribute it to the members on a ‘per needs’ basis. (This brings in an argument about organised religion and priesthood authority, which I will leave at the moment.) It was so much required that Annanias and his wife were killed by God because they lied about the amount they received and did not give it all to the church. And yes, they were killed for both the lie and with-holding, not just the lie (Acts 5:3-4)

Two things come of that – 1) we see that God does require our tithing (and it is forcibly here in the case of Annanias); 2) ‘Mind control’ by God because Annanias and his wife were killed because of what they did. What were the reactions of the church – Acts 5:11 “11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

I believe that Enki is saying that every church uses a form of ‘mind control’ or fear factor to keep members. And this can be seen in the past history of the Traditional Christian churches. And is possibly a factor in some or many today. I mean the main message of Christianity is – join, believe or go to hell for eternity. But this is all by man.

As you pointed out Jesus was/is different. He does not want to ‘control’ us out of fear, He is warning us because of love. But He was the only perfect person on this earth, including the perfect teacher. No one can measure up to His level of teaching through love, not fear.
setfree on July 6th, 2009

Ralph,
There are some interesting thoughts in the above.

First, your interpretation of ACTS. I can see how looking from the perspective that you are (pending judgment conscience), you see God forcibly requiring everything from someone, and also using mind control. But from the perspective of one who knows the Love of God, his Patience, His Long-suffering, the verses read that the Jewish (yes, just Jewish, not the Gentile Church) were giving up all they had because they WANTED to.

Acts 2:42-47 “They (the Jewish followers) were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they {began} selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together WITH GLADNESS and sincerity of heart, PRAISING GOD and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.”

Did you see anybody feeling threatened into it?

Again, in Acts 4:32-35 “And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one {of them} claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. And with great power the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales and lay them at the apostles’ feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need.”

Do you see any forced giving in there? I just don’t see it. Looks pretty (happily) voluntary to me.
setfree on July 6th, 2009

(continued)
In the Case of Annanias and his wife, you said God punished them for not bringing everything. Again, I can see how, if you are in a condemnation (to be judged) mindset, you might see it that way. But it’s not there. Look again.

Annanias and his wife conspired to “look good”, by selling their property and saying they were giving it all. Peter said, to put it in other words, it was yours to keep, or yours to sell and keep the money. Why then did you bring it and lie about it?

I doubt that you have ever learned to “rightly divide the Word”, Ralph. But both these Jews, and the young man who came claiming to have perfectly lived the commandments, were under the Law. If you want to live under the law, you can, and you will be judged by it, and found wanting. (Rom 3:19-20)

I really liked what you said about churches and Jesus. And I hope you can see that this is my point exactly. Have you noticed that not I, nor any Christian witness on here, has tried to convert you to “a church”? Why not? Because we believe in Jesus. We believe Him to be the WAY, the TRUTH, and THE LIFE.

I positively believe that many many churches have been set up by men who want to get gain (and this includes the LDS church and JS and followers). Jesus, on the other hand, does not require membership in any church but his own, and there is no one keeping a roll (list) of who we are but Him. He knows us all. Whoever it is that God has given Him, we’re His, regardless of whether or not we attend a local assembly at all.

So, I’d like to call out BZZT! where you said “join, believe or go to hell”. There is no need to join any organized religion.

And BZZt! to JS and his claiming that there is a “true church”. A lot of churches preach truth, but the absolute truth comes from the Bible, and having it (what the Bible is saying) constantly opened up (revealed) to you by God’s Holy Spirit.
John 1:1
Rick B on July 6th, 2009

Ralph,
I want an Honest explanation from you on how you say God Required Money at the Point of Death, when in fact this is what it said,

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid [them] down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, [and] of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles’ feet.

Act 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
Act 5:2 And kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy [to it], and brought a certain part, and laid [it] at the apostles’ feet.
Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

NO WHERE does it say God Required this as you have stated, Then Peter said,

Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?

I honestly dont expect an honest Answer from you, Still waiting For Shem who appears to have Lied, Gasp, A Mormon Lie? Shem who Claims to answer all ques
Rick B on July 6th, 2009

Shem Claims to answer all questions, His words not mine. He answers all questions he wants to while dodging the rest. I seem to recall waiting for a reply from Subgenius also, But then maybe the answer lies in the Name he choose. Rick b
Ralph on July 7th, 2009

Setfree,

You said “So, I’d like to call out BZZT! where you said “join, believe or go to hell”. There is no need to join any organized religion.” When I said the ‘join, believe or go to hell’ I never said anything about organised religion. In your perspective, if one is not a member of the Christian community, then they are going to hell. So it is join, believe or go to hell. That is join the Christian community, believe in Jesus or go to hell. And if one leaves the Christian community they too will go to hell.

RickB,

Wow, what a personal attack – “I honestly dont expect an honest Answer from you”. I have always tried to be honest on this site in answering questions. You may not like the answers and disagree with them, but that does not mean I am dishonest.

I get my idea about it being a requirement from 2 parts – Acts 5:3 “Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?“, and the fact that both Annanias and his wife died for lying to God AND keeping back part of the price of the land. I know there is nothing more explicit that states it was a requirement but look at the examples from teh OT where God continually destroyed those of the Israelites when they did someting opposite to His will. Its an honest answer whether you agree or not.
setfree on July 7th, 2009

Ralph,
I know that in the temple, you covenant to give everything you have (including your own life if necessary) to the LDS Church. You may have been given this illustration of Annanias and his wife as “evidence” that that requirement/covenant is Biblical. But it is not. I hope that you at least consider the evidence we have presented, put together with the FACT that you are not living up to your covenant and have thus put yourself under Lucifer’s power in the temple, and see for yourself that Mormonism has got you in a bad way, in fact, the worst of ways.
Praying for you tonight…
setfree on July 7th, 2009

After remembering that you HAVE TO give all to the church under the dire penalty, I can sympathize with you, and understand why this story about Annanias and his wife scares you. The real gospel is so non-scary, Ralph. It’s so liberating to be free of unrealistic expectations, of upcoming penalties, of someone finding out that you are not perfect. None of us are perfect. God knows who you are… that’s why He provided for you. He’s not going to send you to hell, or kill you (I guess you’ve already noticed) for not giving your all to the church. He’s very long-suffering, but you’ve had a lot of info now, and you really ought to be asking Him to save you…
Ralph on July 7th, 2009

Setfree,

I never said that I was scared. I was following on with Enki’s conversation about how any church, not just the LDS, uses forms of mind control over its members. It is what is perceived by outsiders – ask my athiest friend here at work and she’ll tell you that any religion brain-washes its members and uses mind control.

I agree that Heavenly Father and Jesus want us to join and follow by free will and will not force us to do anything. In saying that, they have given us ‘rules/boundaries’ in which to live. These have consequences for both keeping and rejecting them. If we keep them we will get to live with Heavenly Father for eternity – conversely if we reject them we will not live with Heavenly Father. It comes down to the old adage where you can choose what you want to do but you can’t choose the consequences.

The law of consecration is where we covenant to give of our time, possessions, etc to the building up of the Kingdom of God on this earth. At one point in time the LDS lived in a community where they tried to have all in common with no poor or rich. This worked for a while until greed and outside influences crept in, so they stopped it. These days because of the large influence of the ‘outside’ world (ie we are not an isolated community like the Amish) we live the law of consecration a different way – we pay our tithing, fast offerings and we (should) look out for our neighbours (including non-LDS). Whenever we are asked to do an assignment for the church we should not reject it. That is how we follow that covenant from the temple at this time. We (at least I do) look forward to when the law of consecration will be lived again in its fullness. I have no problems in giving what I have to help others, I do it because I have a faith in Jesus and a love for my neighbours. Not because I will go to hell if I don’t.

The above about Annanias and his wife is just my obversation/opinion, I don’t know what the church teaches as I never did institute.
setfree on July 7th, 2009

Ralph,

Except for your atheist friend, who is the absolute authority on the subject , I’m sure you can agree that unless you’ve attended a church, you cannot positively say that it brain-washes its members and uses mind control. Thus, I’ll reiterate that the LDS church (I know because I was a member) does, and I’ll leave the proving that ALL other churches do to someone with more gas money.

I have to admit that I have wondered how any “temple Mormon” can make the covenants that they do in the temple, and then go about their daily lives thinking “all’s well”.

Do you realize how you side-stepped the “Law of Consecration”? Basically by this: “That is how we follow that covenant… at this time”. What you’ve just made me aware of is that you are expecting “protection from the herd”– since no one appears ABLE to live the covenant “in it’s fulness”, then no one really HAS to.

This, maybe you have realized already, is one of the key issues of Mormonism that keeps everyone just plugging away without having to really grab hold of Jesus’ lifeline. Mormons judge themselves compared to other Mormons, and thus never confront the reality of God’s absolute holiness, thereby finding it impossible not to prostrate themselves before His glory, proclaiming “I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy”.

Ralph, although you and every other TM has apparently “read it in” to the covenants that you only have to do as good as you can do (or as good as everyone else is doing), I don’t see where the “this is good enough for now” thinking is verified in the temple ceremony/covenants.

Nor is “as good as I can do” verified by scripture, even yours, as yours also says that God made it possible to keep every commandment.

If you’ve been telling yourself that you’re doing fine, you’re in denial. You know that right?

Ralph, here it is again. God knows we can’t live up to His standard. For your sake, admit that you’re a sinner and grab His lifeline…

Praying for you.
Rick B on July 7th, 2009

Ralph, Saying I do not expect an honest answer is not a personal Attack, It is merely the truth. Look back over the Lack of replys from LDS when asked time and again Point blank questions. Look at the times LDS claim We answer and are not afraid, but then do not. That is where I come up with that.

Then About Acts, It said the Property belonged to them, it was theirs to do with what they wanted. Their death was more a fact that they Lied to God and tried to make everyone think they were selling all and giving all when in fact they did not.

Then their are only a few examples of Death in the OT, In fact God is more Loving and forgiving than you care to think when it comes to OT examples, Their are far fewer God killed Jews examples than you would either know about or maybe even care to admit. Rick b
Enki on July 14th, 2009

JackG,
You already know what version of hell you believe in. What version do you wish me to illuminate? The LDS version, the fundementalist version, Christian Science version, JW version, 7th day version? catholic version? Its all negative and fearful stuff, along with that stuff in revelations.

Myth of Hades, Tartarus, Erebus all pre-existed christianity in ancient greece. Myth of the underworld existed in other cultures as well. Greek mythology was a bit darker. The irish hell(underworld) was actually a pleasant place. Its entirely possible that these cultures also used their version of hell for mind control.
setfree on July 14th, 2009

Enki,
Are you suggesting that Greek mythology predates the entire Bible?

Can I ask you again what your purpose is for coming on this blog? Are you hoping to share some happiness you have found with someone here? Do you have answers to your questions that have given you peace and joy and fulfillment in your life that you were missing before you found your “pearl of great price”?

Are you miserable? Have you been burned? You seem… like both of those things may be true. Wanna open up a little?
Martin_from_Brisbane on July 14th, 2009

Enki,

I had intended to post a reply to your comments earlier. The conversation moved on, but you’ve brought up the opportunity again.

On Promises and Threats.

Its quite natural for someone to view religion as a system of promises and threats. It appears to be like any other system of behavioural modification, only, in the case of religion the promises and threats are extrapolated to the ultimate degree. What could exceed the promise of heaven or the threat of hell?

Most defenders of such a system point to the idea that the behavioural modifications are actually beneficial. For example, nobody wants to live in a society in which murder is tolerated, so the commandment “Do not murder” (Ex 20:13) is welcomed as an explicit statement of what is desired. There are exceptions, and you probably know as well as I that the promise of heaven and the threat of hell have led to a rationalization of murder, most obviously in the suicide bombers in the Middle East.

There is, I think, a realistic Biblical alternative and it starts with the question “whom do you serve?” (Josh 24:15). The problem with the system of promises and threats is that it is ultimately self-serving (if I do the right thing I go to heaven) and it is ultimately concerned with my interests.

Perhaps this is the great weakness of 21st Century North American Evangelicalism. We have appealed to people on the basis of preserving their best self-interests, but the appeal falls on deaf ears when the people say that their interests are best served without the need for our Church.

In contrast to this system of fostering self-preservation, the Bible has a habit of pulling us away from the dominance of self interest, most markedly in Matt 16:24. So, the apparent dilemma is “how do you command behavioural modifications whilst denying self interest”. The answer, I think, brings us to the “incarnational theology” that I’m attracted to. Put simply, we do good because that is how God works. ctd..
Martin_from_Brisbane on July 14th, 2009

When we “do” love, God is incarnated in our actions because God is love. When we “do” evil, God is not there.

Why, then, does the Bible resound with the language of heaven and hell? Firstly, it is not about me, but about God. God is the ultimate judge, and heaven and hell are consistently portrayed in the Bible as the outcomes of His perfect judgement (Matt 25:29-31). If God sends someone to hell, you can be sure that that person deserved it (we could interject that we all deserve it, from the Biblical perspective). Secondly, the early Christians certainly believed in the resurrection and judgement and that heaven and hell were the ultimate outcomes of our behaviours in this life. What gets overlooked (perhaps not by Christians) is the role of Jesus as the ultimate judge in this process. He sits on the “final court of appeal”, and there is no authority higher than Him. The Good News is that He is well equipped for this task, having lived and suffered as one of us. He is “Emmanuel”, God with us (Matt 1:23), the “Word made Flesh” (John 1:14), who lived among us, unlike some alien who dropped by on a good day.

I find the topic of judgement so intriguing. I don’t wish to deny Jesus His role in dividing the sheep from the goats, but I often wonder whether God’s judgement is ultimately reflective in nature. In other words, He gives everyone what they seek (see Romans 1:24-25). The lesson is to be careful in what you want – you might actually get it. But the consequences might not be what you had expected. Remember that Jesus told us to seek first the Kingdom of God (Matt 6:33).

The next logical question is to ask “if I get what I seek, why should this lead ultimately to heaven or hell”. Put simply, the thing that you seek might not be the thing you were created for. The Christian answer is that we were created in God’s image to glorify Him, and He is the author of life and light.

ctd…
Martin_from_Brisbane on July 14th, 2009

When we behave in a way that denies our fundamental raison d’etre (reason for being), we deny the light and life in which we function as intended. For example, human beings are social animals. When we behave anti-socially, we hurt ourselves and those around us. Its no coincidence that the Bible presents heaven as a place of joyful, social assembly, whilst hell is a place of private, isolated pain.

This is what I refer to as the theory of sin. The tragedy of sin, in my view, is that it is unnecessary for us to function as human beings. When we are doing something that is alien to us, we experience hell and we inflict hell on others. The trouble is that we do it habitually as if it were natural to us. We need a saviour to get us out of the prison we have created for ourselves.

Returning to the issue of whom we serve, note where the blessing and honour and praise of heaven is directed. It’s not to me. It’s not even for me, or about me. It’s to the Lamb who was slain (Rev 5).

I’m living my life as if I’m en route to this assembly. Its not because I can fill my belly with the finest cup-cakes and scoff at those who don’t make it. Its because I see the worthy-ness of the Lamb, and I feel inexorably drawn to praise Him forever.

I pray my journey will bring a foretaste of that experience to me and the people around me, whether they join me or not.
Latayne on July 14th, 2009

I’m getting in a bit late on this discussion but want to tell Paige how touching her testimony is. God will surely continue to use her — her words, her very body — to testify to the health, peace, and fullness of life that a new life in Christ can bring.

Latayne C Scott
http://www.latayne.com
jackg on July 20th, 2009

Enki,

The biblical perspective on hell will do. You need to avoid eisegesis, however. Looking forward to what your study reveals.

Blessings…
Enki on July 21st, 2009

Jackg,
“You need to avoid eisegesis, however.”

How will I ever read anything at “Mormon Coffee” then?

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Paige Richardson’s Testimony Out of Mormonism And Into the Arms of Jesus

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