Comments on: “Joseph’s name should be had…” http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/ It's forbidden, but it's good! Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:41:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: grindael http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22156 grindael Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:02:08 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22156 I was perusing Uncle Dans Old Mormon Articles and came up with a tidbit that dovetails nicely with the post I made on the "Prophet-preferred-prophet Test" on smith's "prophecy" about the mormons "fleeing to Zion" to escape the coming apocalypse before "it overtakes you", - adding "there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken, fulfilled." This apocalypse would be so great that it "would sweep the wicked of this (smith's) generation from off the face of the land. This in turn would "open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north." smith was so sure this would happen, he gave his solemn oath, "by authority of Jesus Christ" no less, making the point that "I am accountable for EVERY word I say." Is it any wonder we see articles like this one published in the Liberal Advocate of Rochester NY in April of 1832: "Mormonism is said to have taken deep root in the Baptist church, in the town of Mendon, in this county. A number were re-dipped on Sunday last. The preacher said that he should never die, but be translated, after the manner of Enoch, and that in eighteen months Mormonism would be the prevailing religion; and, that in five years the wicked were to be swept from the face of the earth. When we see the degradation to which weak human nature has been reduced of late, we cannot wonder at such fanatical extravagance." Here we have corroboration of smith's false prophecies, and the "fanatical extravagance" those that believed him went to, to promulgate this rubbish. Not only were the wicked to be swept off the earth 'within five years' but faithful mormoms expected to be 'translated' like Enoch.... There is no defense of this, and reports of the time again bear out the lies of smith... I was perusing Uncle Dans Old Mormon Articles and came up with a tidbit that dovetails nicely with the post I made on the “Prophet-preferred-prophet Test” on smith’s “prophecy” about the mormons “fleeing to Zion” to escape the coming apocalypse before “it overtakes you”, – adding “there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things which I have spoken, fulfilled.”

This apocalypse would be so great that it “would sweep the wicked of this (smith’s) generation from off the face of the land.

This in turn would “open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north.” smith was so sure this would happen, he gave his solemn oath, “by authority of Jesus Christ” no less, making the point that “I am accountable for EVERY word I say.”

Is it any wonder we see articles like this one published in the Liberal Advocate of Rochester NY in April of 1832:

“Mormonism is said to have taken deep root in the Baptist church, in the town of Mendon, in this county. A number were re-dipped on Sunday last. The preacher said that he should never die, but be translated, after the manner of Enoch, and that in eighteen months Mormonism would be the prevailing religion; and, that in five years the wicked were to be swept from the face of the earth. When we see the degradation to which weak human nature has been reduced of late, we cannot wonder at such fanatical extravagance.”

Here we have corroboration of smith’s false prophecies, and the “fanatical extravagance” those that believed him went to, to promulgate this rubbish. Not only were the wicked to be swept off the earth ‘within five years’ but faithful mormoms expected to be ‘translated’ like Enoch….

There is no defense of this, and reports of the time again bear out the lies of smith…

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22143 falcon Wed, 18 Nov 2009 12:53:37 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22143 The biggest threat to Mormons and Mormonism is the process of "critical thinking/higher order thinking". Now Mormons actually are quite proud of this, in a way, because Joseph Smith's claims have to be "felt" not "understood". Actually understanding Joseph Smith isn't all that difficult. He was a narcissist with a "talent" for telling tall tales and doing so in a way that some folks jumped on his bandwagon. The folks that believe the yarns he spun must suspend credulity in order to make it all work for them. That's why Mormons often sound childish with their attempted explanations of why Smith's story has to be true. Now we're not talking about what Jesus said about having a faith like a child. We're talking about "childish" which is immature or magical thinking. I don't think any of us Christians can even begin to imagine how much the smithians want Joe's tales to be true. It makes them feel good. They think they have spiritual power in their false priesthood. They're going to become gods and have forever families and rule their very own planets. Mormons want this bad enough that they'll twist themselves into pretzels to make it all come out the way they want it to. It's a two plus two equals five form of reasoning. While the rest of us can see their folly, they can't. They believe it and their thoughts become a personal reality. The biggest threat to Mormons and Mormonism is the process of “critical thinking/higher order thinking”. Now Mormons actually are quite proud of this, in a way, because Joseph Smith’s claims have to be “felt” not “understood”. Actually understanding Joseph Smith isn’t all that difficult. He was a narcissist with a “talent” for telling tall tales and doing so in a way that some folks jumped on his bandwagon. The folks that believe the yarns he spun must suspend credulity in order to make it all work for them.
That’s why Mormons often sound childish with their attempted explanations of why Smith’s story has to be true. Now we’re not talking about what Jesus said about having a faith like a child. We’re talking about “childish” which is immature or magical thinking. I don’t think any of us Christians can even begin to imagine how much the smithians want Joe’s tales to be true. It makes them feel good. They think they have spiritual power in their false priesthood. They’re going to become gods and have forever families and rule their very own planets. Mormons want this bad enough that they’ll twist themselves into pretzels to make it all come out the way they want it to. It’s a two plus two equals five form of reasoning. While the rest of us can see their folly, they can’t. They believe it and their thoughts become a personal reality.

]]> By: grindael http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22142 grindael Wed, 18 Nov 2009 07:31:07 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22142 Ralph, I am continually amazed at how you liken smith and his family to Biblical prophets. There is no comparison. The one thing that the Biblical prophets have that smith does not is the testimony of Jesus that they WERE prophets. In the case of Abraham, the Lord himself affirms his righteousness. After Abraham was called of the Lord, he was consistent in how he described and worshipped the Lord. He did not say God is a spirit, Jesus is flesh and the Holy Spirit is the mind of both and then change his mind 8 years later like smith did. The Bible account of Abraham is sketchy to say the least. We don't know all the circumstances surrounding why Abraham did what he did. But his life as a whole shows he was a true prophet of God. smith, on the other hand, never changed his ways. He was a money digger, used magick stones and talismans, lied, deceived, threatened, beat up people, was a hypocrite, broke the laws of the land and of God, and died because he had such an ego he could not allow freedom of the press in his own city. Abraham Prophet. Yes. smith Prophet. NOT. Ralph,
I am continually amazed at how you liken smith and his family to Biblical prophets. There is no comparison. The one thing that the Biblical prophets have that smith does not is the testimony of Jesus that they WERE prophets. In the case of Abraham, the Lord himself affirms his righteousness.

After Abraham was called of the Lord, he was consistent in how he described and worshipped the Lord. He did not say God is a spirit, Jesus is flesh and the Holy Spirit is the mind of both and then change his mind 8 years later like smith did. The Bible account of Abraham is sketchy to say the least. We don’t know all the circumstances surrounding why Abraham did what he did. But his life as a whole shows he was a true prophet of God.

smith, on the other hand, never changed his ways. He was a money digger, used magick stones and talismans, lied, deceived, threatened, beat up people, was a hypocrite, broke the laws of the land and of God, and died because he had such an ego he could not allow freedom of the press in his own city.

Abraham Prophet. Yes.
smith Prophet. NOT.

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22138 falcon Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:17:30 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22138 Well you see Ralph it's because I have a testimony of Jesus Christ and His Gospel. I've even had several burnings in my bosom so I know what I believe is true. I feel compelled to tell you that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, that He walked this earth and taught many things and died on the Cross for my sins. I believe he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and will come again for the final judgment. I testify to you that there is One God, eternal, never changing. It's through Him, and His plan of salvation that we are granted, through faith, eternal life. Jesus is the physical manifestation of the invisible God. He is the revealed Word. There is no other way to the Father accept through Him. By God's Spirit we are called. Some answer this call and others don't, choosing a path that will lead to destruction. There's still time Ralph. You are drawn here continually and God keeps reaching out to you. How long will you reject Him? Well you see Ralph it’s because I have a testimony of Jesus Christ and His Gospel. I’ve even had several burnings in my bosom so I know what I believe is true. I feel compelled to tell you that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, that He walked this earth and taught many things and died on the Cross for my sins. I believe he rose from the dead, ascended into heaven and will come again for the final judgment.
I testify to you that there is One God, eternal, never changing. It’s through Him, and His plan of salvation that we are granted, through faith, eternal life. Jesus is the physical manifestation of the invisible God. He is the revealed Word. There is no other way to the Father accept through Him. By God’s Spirit we are called. Some answer this call and others don’t, choosing a path that will lead to destruction.
There’s still time Ralph. You are drawn here continually and God keeps reaching out to you. How long will you reject Him?

]]> By: Ralph http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22136 Ralph Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:42:44 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22136 Falcon, I like your sentiments above when describing me. Did you know that my staunch athiest friend has said exactly the same things about religion and religious people in general, so that includes you and your beliefs. Nice to know we're in the same boat! :) And you're right I can't claim that God hasn't reached out and called to me, and I never have. I strongly believe that I am right where He wants me to be, and this is from both a spiritual witness and other evidences from my own and friends' experiences. I know you can say the same thing about yourself, but in my view you are the one that is delusional and on the wrong path in life. Why don't you come over to the path of truth and life and follow the true Jesus and Heavenly Father instead of trying to drag people into Satan's path? Martin, I am not trying to claim any authority for the BoA from my comments. I just asked the question - if Abram had a background in polythiesm, was the One God that he eventually followed one of the pantheon, or a different god altogether? If He was one of the pantheon then wouldn't some of the worship rituals (eg sacrifice) similar? If He wasn't one of the pantheon then how did He reveal Himself to Abram and be recognised as The God? It does not tell us this in the Bible, it just says that God called Abram out and away from Ur. (BTW In this respect it says nothing about God calling Abram out of polythiesm - if you want to take the Bible literally) Falcon,

I like your sentiments above when describing me. Did you know that my staunch athiest friend has said exactly the same things about religion and religious people in general, so that includes you and your beliefs. Nice to know we’re in the same boat! :)

And you’re right I can’t claim that God hasn’t reached out and called to me, and I never have. I strongly believe that I am right where He wants me to be, and this is from both a spiritual witness and other evidences from my own and friends’ experiences. I know you can say the same thing about yourself, but in my view you are the one that is delusional and on the wrong path in life. Why don’t you come over to the path of truth and life and follow the true Jesus and Heavenly Father instead of trying to drag people into Satan’s path?

Martin,

I am not trying to claim any authority for the BoA from my comments. I just asked the question – if Abram had a background in polythiesm, was the One God that he eventually followed one of the pantheon, or a different god altogether? If He was one of the pantheon then wouldn’t some of the worship rituals (eg sacrifice) similar? If He wasn’t one of the pantheon then how did He reveal Himself to Abram and be recognised as The God? It does not tell us this in the Bible, it just says that God called Abram out and away from Ur. (BTW In this respect it says nothing about God calling Abram out of polythiesm – if you want to take the Bible literally)

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22135 falcon Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:53:23 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22135 It's a sad commentary, and I really shouldn't say it because I know it makes the TBMs dig in further, but I see Joseph Smith as a joke. I can't take the guy seriously at all except to admire, in a perverse way, his ability to con people. I'll never forget when I heard about the "magic glasses" from Mormon sources several decades ago. I was like, "Are you kidding me!" But this stuff really flips the switch of some people. Who can figure it out. But I had a very good friend that was a Mormon convert way back then and I could never wrap my brain around why he went that direction. Proverbs 16:4 says "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil." Might be something to that when we think of Joseph Smith. It’s a sad commentary, and I really shouldn’t say it because I know it makes the TBMs dig in further, but I see Joseph Smith as a joke. I can’t take the guy seriously at all except to admire, in a perverse way, his ability to con people. I’ll never forget when I heard about the “magic glasses” from Mormon sources several decades ago. I was like, “Are you kidding me!” But this stuff really flips the switch of some people. Who can figure it out. But I had a very good friend that was a Mormon convert way back then and I could never wrap my brain around why he went that direction.
Proverbs 16:4 says “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.” Might be something to that when we think of Joseph Smith.

]]> By: Martin_from_Brisbane http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22134 Martin_from_Brisbane Wed, 18 Nov 2009 02:45:05 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22134 Ralph asked <blockquote>The question not answered which I have asked before is – was God one of the pantheon of Abram’s initial religion?</blockquote> Genesis 15:7 says <blockquote>He also said to him, "I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it."</blockquote> Though not referring specifically to Abraham, Hosea 11:1 follows in a similar vein <blockquote>"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.</blockquote>, which is also referenced in Matt 2:15. These are not simply references to geographical changes of address; they directly appeal to Israel to "come out of" the pantheism of Ur and Egypt to follow the One and Only God. Also, the context of Deut 32:39 is all about Israel separating itself from the pantheon of 'gods' in the surrounding nations:<blockquote>"See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.</blockquote> Even if (big "if") we concede that Abraham initially had polytheistic, pantheistic or henotheistic tendencies, the God of the Bible calls His people out of them. Question answered. Ironically, whereas God calls His people "out of Egypt". The LDS movement calls them right back in. BTW, its impossible for LDS to demonstrate a progression in Joseph Smith that's similar to Abraham's journey out of Ur, because the evidence of his own writings demonstrates how Smith "progressed" from monotheism (e.g. BoM) to full-blown polytheism (e.g. Book of Abraham). On second thoughts, is Ralph's question aimed at giving credibility to BoA by implying that it could be authentic on account of Abraham's imputed polytheism? I'd advise Ralph not to go down that path. The BoA is considered "scripture" by Mormons, in which case the LDS movement has canonized something that the Bible considers to be blasphemy. Ralph asked
The question not answered which I have asked before is – was God one of the pantheon of Abram’s initial religion?

Genesis 15:7 says

He also said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”

Though not referring specifically to Abraham, Hosea 11:1 follows in a similar vein

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

, which is also referenced in Matt 2:15.

These are not simply references to geographical changes of address; they directly appeal to Israel to “come out of” the pantheism of Ur and Egypt to follow the One and Only God.

Also, the context of Deut 32:39 is all about Israel separating itself from the pantheon of ‘gods’ in the surrounding nations:

“See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Even if (big “if”) we concede that Abraham initially had polytheistic, pantheistic or henotheistic tendencies, the God of the Bible calls His people out of them.

Question answered.

Ironically, whereas God calls His people “out of Egypt”. The LDS movement calls them right back in.

BTW, its impossible for LDS to demonstrate a progression in Joseph Smith that’s similar to Abraham’s journey out of Ur, because the evidence of his own writings demonstrates how Smith “progressed” from monotheism (e.g. BoM) to full-blown polytheism (e.g. Book of Abraham).

On second thoughts, is Ralph’s question aimed at giving credibility to BoA by implying that it could be authentic on account of Abraham’s imputed polytheism? I’d advise Ralph not to go down that path. The BoA is considered “scripture” by Mormons, in which case the LDS movement has canonized something that the Bible considers to be blasphemy.

]]> By: setfree http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22133 setfree Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:05:33 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22133 Falcon, The barrier is huge. If my parents hadn't figured it out... If my life hadn't fallen apart... If I hadn't finally had to face the choices I had made... but I was mid-to-late 20's. I keep thinking some of the older people out here ought to be searching for the truth simply because they understand they are getting too old to postpone it but you know... if you've believed a lie your whole life, if you've been a proponent of it, a forwarder of the lie... wow, allowing for the possibility that you are wrong, especially when it comes to having to finally know the truth about God and having to deal with the consequences of such knowledge... For Ralph. Ralph. Dang it. I wish you would wake up. All the good works in your works bag is not what God wants. He wants you to know you that you are 100% guilty so that you will accept His all-or-nothing offer of trading your soul-life up for the new one provided through Jesus' atonement. Praying for you buddy. Falcon,
The barrier is huge.
If my parents hadn’t figured it out…
If my life hadn’t fallen apart…
If I hadn’t finally had to face the choices I had made…

but I was mid-to-late 20’s. I keep thinking some of the older people out here ought to be searching for the truth simply because they understand they are getting too old to postpone it

but you know… if you’ve believed a lie your whole life, if you’ve been a proponent of it, a forwarder of the lie… wow, allowing for the possibility that you are wrong, especially when it comes to having to finally know the truth about God and having to deal with the consequences of such knowledge…

For Ralph. Ralph. Dang it. I wish you would wake up. All the good works in your works bag is not what God wants. He wants you to know you that you are 100% guilty so that you will accept His all-or-nothing offer of trading your soul-life up for the new one provided through Jesus’ atonement.

Praying for you buddy.

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22132 falcon Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:34:05 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22132 Our friend Ralph really gives us some great insights into the mind-set of someone trapped in Smith's religion. Our goal, of course, would be to provide Ralph with evidence, information, and data in an effort to dislodge his thinking and get him to think outside the box of a cultist. The problem is that no amount of rational evidence can overcome an emotional attachment. Ralph wants desperately for Mormonism to be true, just like the late Peter Sellers wanted psychic surgery to be true. In the words of the Amazing Randy (James Randy), "People believe this 'stuff' because they want to." No, what has to happen is that within the mind of the cultist, a thought that something just isn't right has to get large enough to overcome their emotional attachment to the cult. Without that happening, they'll rationalize and justify to the point of absurdity to keep hope alive that maybe it is all true. So we can produce all kinds of evidence about Abram and his calling from God and it won't make one speck of difference. It's basically an exercise in futility until the cultist comes to the emotional point of being able to consider the evidence. All of you exMormons have been there. You understand the mindset and what it took for you to even begin to seriously contemplate the unthinkable. Our friend Ralph really gives us some great insights into the mind-set of someone trapped in Smith’s religion. Our goal, of course, would be to provide Ralph with evidence, information, and data in an effort to dislodge his thinking and get him to think outside the box of a cultist. The problem is that no amount of rational evidence can overcome an emotional attachment. Ralph wants desperately for Mormonism to be true, just like the late Peter Sellers wanted psychic surgery to be true. In the words of the Amazing Randy (James Randy), “People believe this ’stuff’ because they want to.”
No, what has to happen is that within the mind of the cultist, a thought that something just isn’t right has to get large enough to overcome their emotional attachment to the cult. Without that happening, they’ll rationalize and justify to the point of absurdity to keep hope alive that maybe it is all true.
So we can produce all kinds of evidence about Abram and his calling from God and it won’t make one speck of difference. It’s basically an exercise in futility until the cultist comes to the emotional point of being able to consider the evidence.
All of you exMormons have been there. You understand the mindset and what it took for you to even begin to seriously contemplate the unthinkable.

]]> By: falcon http://blog.mrm.org/2009/11/josephs-name-should-be-had/comment-page-1/#comment-22131 falcon Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:08:28 +0000 http://blog.mrm.org/?p=3283#comment-22131 Well Ralph, I could have written your post for you. In fact I anticipated that you'd be writing and also what you'd be writing. Nice try friend, but no cigar.....as usual. You're not only reaching but you are exposing yourself for what you are, a bonafied polytheist who will do anything to protect his belief in the occult based religion of Joseph Smith. Sorry to get rough with you Ralph because I genuinely like you, but I don't think we would be serving the Lord Jesus Christ and his Gospel to sugar coat this for you. God called Abram out of the Ur of Chaldeans so that he might follow Him, the One, true God. Not simply one of many gods. Your speculation is desperate Ralph. Joseph Smith had a decision to make. He was exposed to the living God but he was also exposed to the occult. Abram was exposed to God but also to paganism. Abram choose God. Smith choose the occult. Ralph look at the fury with which you cling to the false religion of Mormonism. If you are intent, honest, sincere and humble to seek, find and follow God, then I would suggest that you give up your false gods also, as Abram did, and look to the living God for your salvation. You've have repeatedly been exposed to the truth as God has reached out and called you to Himself. You refuse to leave your paganism as Abram left his. Ralph, you can never claim that God didn't reach out to you and call you. Well Ralph, I could have written your post for you. In fact I anticipated that you’d be writing and also what you’d be writing. Nice try friend, but no cigar…..as usual. You’re not only reaching but you are exposing yourself for what you are, a bonafied polytheist who will do anything to protect his belief in the occult based religion of Joseph Smith. Sorry to get rough with you Ralph because I genuinely like you, but I don’t think we would be serving the Lord Jesus Christ and his Gospel to sugar coat this for you.
God called Abram out of the Ur of Chaldeans so that he might follow Him, the One, true God. Not simply one of many gods. Your speculation is desperate Ralph. Joseph Smith had a decision to make. He was exposed to the living God but he was also exposed to the occult. Abram was exposed to God but also to paganism. Abram choose God. Smith choose the occult.
Ralph look at the fury with which you cling to the false religion of Mormonism. If you are intent, honest, sincere and humble to seek, find and follow God, then I would suggest that you give up your false gods also, as Abram did, and look to the living God for your salvation. You’ve have repeatedly been exposed to the truth as God has reached out and called you to Himself. You refuse to leave your paganism as Abram left his.
Ralph, you can never claim that God didn’t reach out to you and call you.

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