Proselytizing for Optimum Productivity
An email from a former Mormon (I’ll call “XM”) arrived in my inbox. He was disturbed over a video he found on You Tube. In the video, (now) LDS President Thomas Monson instructs LDS missionaries on how to find investigators (people interested in learning about the Mormon Church with a eye toward membership).
XM wrote,
“…listen closely at who he wants the missionaries to target. First he tells them how to ’set the stage’ [with members] by using ‘loaded language’ (Mind control tactic #6 of 8 Lifton) and addressing the ’sacred science’ (Mind Control tactic #5 of 8, Lifton). Then he goes on to [clarify] who he wants the missionaries to talk to by asking the member family, ‘first, who do you know who has recently lost a loved one; second, who do you know who has welcomed a newly born child to the family; third, who do you know who has recently moved into the neighborhood; fourth, who do you know who has trouble coping with their teenage children?’ All four of the examples have a common thread, all the people are in a vulnerable position and have just had an emotional or challenging experience happen in their life. Doesn’t it seem odd that the LDS organization that claims that it represents God would use [these] predatory practices?”
If you can get past the strong language he uses, XM raises a point worthy of discussion. Note that Mr. Monson talks about the “best way for a Mission to achieve its optimum productivity.” He says it won’t happen if the missionaries casually ask members for referrals. The missionaries need to find people who are at a vulnerable point in their lives in order to be successful.
XM wrote,
“I call these predatory practices because Monson does not ask for people who are: one, Stable in their Jobs; two, have a stable family life; three, who do you know who has raised their family in an honest fashion; and four, who do you know who is looking for the truth. Why would Monson want the missionaries to go after people who have experienced a major change in their life? We all become weak from time to time, emotional stress tends to take its toll, this is when the missionaries strike.
“The reason is surprisingly simplistic. People who have experienced one or more of the life changing or challenging events Monson describes are generally more open to hearing language that is best described as cult like language. Robert Lifton and Alan Hassan describe this technique as ‘Love Bombing.’ Love bombing is basically killing them with kindness. It is easy to conclude that someone who is having an emotional event in their life, who is feeling lonely, or confused by a situation, would be open and more receptive to a cult’s advances.”
When I first watched this video of President Monson, I thought, “Well, hurting people need the Good News and hope that Christ can bring into their shaky lives.” But then I realized that Mr. Monson is not suggesting that hurting people be ministered to in the name of the Lord. He’s not suggesting that the LDS missionaries bring them the hope and peace of Christ. He’s suggesting that these people be used to achieve optimum productivity for the Mission.
XM explained,
“It is completely appropriate to reach out to families and individuals who are experiencing life altering events; as a matter of fact it is important to be the friendly neighbor and friend. Most people help out or lend a shoulder to cry on out of the goodness of their heart. The difference here is that Monson has the intention of converting those families and individuals. The perceived concern for the family or person is conditional, the missionaries have an ulterior motive; that is to baptize. Jesus died for our sins, with no strings attached. It’s just disheartening that the organization that claims to be the ‘one true church’ has to resort to manipulative tactics that prey on people who are already having a tough time.”
People in the midst of these life-changing circumstances are tender. They’re afraid. They’re frustrated. They’re at the end of their ropes or feeling a heavy weight of responsibility. They don’t really need answers to questions about where they came from or why they’re here. They don’t need pressure to join the “One True Church” with all of its burdens piled on top of their already overloaded backs. They need their burdens relieved, their fears calmed, their hopes renewed.
They don’t need to become a statistic that allows an LDS mission to “achieve its optimum productivity.” They need Jesus–the one and only answer for their souls.
“Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me,
for I am gentle and lowly in heart,
and you will find rest for your souls.”
Matthew 11:28-29
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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Comments (125)
My husband and I had the missionaries over for dinner recently. They did not ask us for referrals, they asked for a news paper to look through the obituaries. When they left I told my husband that it is wrong to prey on someone going through the grief of loosing a loved one. My husband, who has been a missionary and works for the church, replied, “No! You get people to see the truth in anyway possible.” He thought it was a great idea and wished someone had thought of it while he was on a mission. It ticks me off to no end that the idea came from Pres. Monson.
On a more personal note:
I have a husband with a genetic disease that is potentially deadly and we only found out about it a few years ago and now a few months ago we found out our son has it. Our sons case is a lot worse than his fathers and I pray everyday that he will even make it to adulthood. The thought of someone preying on the grief and loneliness I sometimes feel over my situation is unconscionable.
Plus, this is not to be rude to anybody, the whole eternal family thing does not make one iota of a difference to me. In the case of being in the situation of having a child that could bleed to death internally at any time I do not think about how being an eternal family is wonderful and boy am I glad that I have that to look forward to.
Satan says: “Come to me, all you who need help, because I promise big and wonderful things. But I will indeed laden you down with more and more commandments, principles, ordinances to do. Covenants that are impossible to keep. And I will take everything from you eventually, including your life with God”
J.J.M.
Your post was not out here when I wrote mine (though it looks like it was), or I would have addressed you first.
I am sorry about what is going on in your family, and hope you will stick around and share your thoughts. God bless you, wherever and whoever you are.
In con games these “prospects” are known as “marks”. There’s also the “bait and switch” used in some sales games. The mark/prospect is lured in by an incredible deal but the deal really isn’t available for purchase. The “any means to get them to hear and accept the truth” approach will come to a bad end unless the prospect can be hooked emotionally through fear, intimidation, loss of approval or some other dishonest means.
This article really tells us a lot about the character of Mormonism. First and foremost; if something walks, acts and talks like a cult, it’s a cult. The game in Mormon cultism is, find vulnerable people and lie to them by omission by not being up front about what the beliefs and teachings of the Mormon church are.
Andy Watson has a friend who lived out in the SLC area for years and he and his wife would get invited over to some Mormons home for supper. Just like clockwork, the missionaries would just happen to be in the neighborhood and stop by. It got to be a standing joke for Andy’s friend. I had a buddy that was out on one of the South Pacific Islands when he was in the Peace Corps years ago. The Mormons had the only gym and he liked to play basketball. They invited him until it became clear he wasn’t a prospect for Smith’s cult. He was only valuable to them as a prospect, not as a person.
And BTW, this Monson gives me the creeps! Put together his vocal mannerisms, the dark back drop and the dishonesty of what he’s suggesting and it comes across as Darth Vader unmasked! Whew, do Mormons get a steady diet of this stuff? No wonder people are fleeing Mormonism in droves!
Well everyone, I really wish I could stand in judgment of Monson on this, but I can’t, because I have heard the same techniques espoused by evangelical pastors like Rick Warren. The only difference being that evangelicals who use meeting or empathising with a persons’ “felt needs” prior to leading them in the “sinner’s prayer” to “accept Jesus into their hearts” is that generally they want to see people converted to Christ. The sales pitch is that Jesus will meet all of your needs, heal your broken marriage, heal you of addictions, give you the abundant life, etc. Forgiveness of sin is mentioned only in passing on the road to saying the prayer. Their motive really is to see people saved, and they believe that once a person says “the prayer” or “asks Jesus into their heart” they have “won a soul for Jesus”. In my experience most Christians who use these means have a low view of sin and the gospel, but are still well meaning.
I was an elder of a church several years ago and the pastor got on a church growth kick. He started looking to the world’s methods of growing the church like mass marketing church flyers, door hangers, passing out gift bags door-to-door, etc. People were encouraged to make lists of friends that they could invite to church. In one elder’s meeting we were sitting in a restaurant discussing church growth and revenue strategies. I stopped the pastor and said, “If I was an outsider listening to this conversation I would have no idea we were a church. I could just as easily believe we were discussing how to multi-level market a new vitamin supplement.” His answer? “Oh no! The more I study the world the more I see that they are turning to the church for answers on how to grow their companies!” That was the beginning of the end at that church for me. I have seen churches locally give first-time visitors bags of Starbucks coffee beans in an effort to get them to hear the gospel and become members of the church.
Different goal, but same methods?
J.J.M., your story breaks my heart. It’s obvious that you are looking for answers. Why else would you be here if you are not arguing in favor of Monson’s tactics?
The only thing I can offer you is the truth in love. Sickness, genetic disease, and death are the result of sin. Not necessarily your sin, and in the case of your son’s illness, definitely not as a result of his personal sin. It is a result of the sin of our federal head, the first man, Adam. All people born in Adam’s line suffer death (Romans 5:12). All people born in Adam’s line are corrupt and sin by nature. We are not sinners because we have sinned, we sin because we are sinners. And I’m sure you know that sin is the breaking of God’s commandments: Do not worship idols, Do not blaspheme, Do not disobey your parents, Do not steal, Do no not lie, etc. We are all guilty and deserve God’s just judgment for those sins. Unfortunately we cannot pay the penalty for those sins unless we suffer God’s punishment, which means eternal separation from Him in Hell. But one person did pay the penalty for all of our sins, and that is Jesus Christ. Since it is nearly Christmas I will quote what the angel told Joseph in Matthew 1:21, “And she will bring forth a Son and you will call His name Jesus (Yeshua, which means “salvation”), for He will save His people from their sins.” Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say Jesus saves from sin after all we can do. It doesn’t say if we do such and such and join a church. The promise is that He will save His people from their sins. How is that salvation granted? By believing in the Biblical Jesus and God, and that He payed the penalty for your sins. Listen to Jesus’ words in John 5:24, “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.” Eternal families is a lie, eternal life (maybe as a family by God’s grace) through Jesus Christ is true.
(cont for J.J.M.) You are a mother and you worry about your son and would do all things for him. But in this one instance be selfish. Worry about your own life first, then let God take care of the rest. Cast your worries and your cares on Him because He loves you and died for your sins, then pray to a God that can do all things for your son and for your husband. There is no promise of healing, but there is a promise of eternal life that is free for the taking to those who ask. Listen to what Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4:7-14,
This promise is true, and there are many former LDS who post here that will attest to that.
I will be praying earnestly for you and your family.
J.J.M.
though i can border on cynicism…this is actually skepticism, bordering on crying “foul”..
I am curious how the obituaries would be of any help…addresses are not published…missionaries would be hard pressed to find out who was recently deceased in their “boundary”.
You see given the extent that the Ev will fabricate and manipulate facts to suit their purpoose, i am somewhat hesistant to accept the sincerity of your “anecdotal” evidence.
However, if what you say is good and honest, then accept my deepest apologies.
liv4jc, thanks for doing a superb job at what I wanted, but felt inadequate, to do. (present the gospel). prayin for this…
liv4jc,
I was out snowshoeing thinking about Monson’s tactics. Twenty-five years ago I went through the “Evangelism Explosion” training that was developed by D.James Kennedy via the Presbyterian church he pastored in Coral Gables, Fla. The emphasis was on providing “seekers” with a clear presentation of the Gospel with an invitation to pray and receive Christ if they were amenable to doing so. There was never an attempt or even any training on prospecting that I can remember. The point of the training was to prepare “trainees” to know how to share their faith in a straight forward unambiguous manner. From my study of Church history in the U.S., bringing people to a decision point was something developed/emphasized by Charles Finney in the 19th century. He said, “I preached a course of sermons designed to convict the people of sin as deeply and as universally as possible.”……”On the evening of his fourth Sunday at the Tabernacle, as described in the Memoirs, Finney suggested to the pastor, the Rev. Dr. John Campbell, that he would like to hold a special meeting for inquirers following the evening service……After preaching a short sermon that evening, Finney called upon ‘all who were anxious for their souls, and who were then disposed immediately to make their peace with God,’ to attend the inquiry meeting. After dismissing the congregation, Finney relates in his Memoirs, ‘Dr. Campbell nervously and anxiously looked out of the window; to see which way the congregation would go. To his ‘great astonishment,’ he discovered that no less than fifteen or sixteen hundred of them were heading directly for the assigned room. While Dr. Campbell looked on in ‘amazement’, Finney pressed the inquirers to lay down ‘their weapons of rebellion’ and ‘accept Jesus as their only Redeemer’.
There’s nothing in the Bible that suggests that in order to be saved someone has to say the sinners prayer or walk down an aisle or do anything in particular.
(cont)
The Bible tells us that we have to have faith; and who and what we have to have our faith in. It’s necessary, in my view, that the unregenerated person needs to see the hopelessness of their condition; and that their sin separates them from God. Admitting that, then they need to see that Jesus’ finished work on the Cross is their only hope for salvation.
But for a Mormon, their is one more task. They need to understand who God and Jesus are. The Mormon god cannot provide sinners with salvation. On the contrary, the Mormon god and jesus, have no power to save because in reality, they don’t exist.
Mormonism clings to a form of godliness, but it’s an empty shell of a religion because it doesn’t recognize the One, Only, Eternal, Everlasting, never changing God. Only God can offer salvation as a free gift to those who recognize Him and what He did for us through His Son Jesus Christ. Receiving God’s offer of eternal life through faith, brings us peace with (God) and the assurance of salvation.
Growing up in SLC as a very young child. My Dad was called down to the old 8th Ward (9th Ward 2nd Ward,I don’t remember which one) to consult on something and I happened to be with him. On that day Thomas Monson happened to be their too. I was introduced to him and I’m sure the reason I remember it is because he was so genuinly warm and friendly to a little kid. Years later this was renforced when I was a teen and a friend of mine invited me to a scout function at the Liberty Wells Stake Center in central SLC. Thomas Monson happened to drop by, not in any offical capacity, I shook his hand and told him it was nice to see him again. My thinking at the time was there was no way he would remember meeting a kid some 6 or 7 years earlier. I was wrong. I remember his robust laugh and warm friendly manner as he explained what he was doing on that day. Over the years growing up in The Mecca of Mormonism I had similar encounters with numerous GA’s and their families. My experiences were much the same. These were not just good people, they were exceptional human beings. My childhood Ward leaders were to this day, some of the finest people I have ever met. My disconnect from Mormonism began with a thought I had when I was 8 or 9 while sitting in Sunday school. The notion that there was no human being between me and my maker, and an uneasy feeling that something was wrong with the things I was being taught at church. I know nothing but love for these people and I pray I never lose that. ( I’ll make an exception here for Sub) lol
cont, Once again we confront yet another instance where good people can dish out seemingly endless bad docterine, policy and advice My point: LDS lurkers, being an exceptional human being doesn’t mean your religion isn’t false.
“Get em when their down”. I have seen this my whole life. I haven’t heard of the obits being used, but Sub with his head perpetually in the sand pretenting like this couldn’t possibly be the case is as disegenuoius as his apology. BTW Sub, your whole religion is based on “anecdotal” evidence.
Hey mod please fix bfwjr’s spellin
Aaron, I want to thank you for the kind person you are, and all the work you do. Many may not see this, but I do, and wish there were people like you around when I was a lost and confused return missionary trying to cope with my church’s lies, thuggery, threats, bigotry, racial hatred, & most of all historical tampering & the hiding of the truth.
I address this not to the frequent LDS posters that come on this blog to confuse issues, change the subject, distract from the truth & insult and denigrate christians & x-m’s from clearly stating the obvious and why smith’s church is full of heresies and lies.
To the Mormons,
I implore those who have questions to read your history! Did you know that one of your greatest writers on doctrine Bruce R.McConkie stated that Brigham Young taught false doctrine?
“Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the (Polygamist) cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true…I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls…I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is… If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.” (Letter to Eugene England, 1981)
So, (says he) believe in only the ‘standard works’. Why then, as SO MANY of the LDS posters have continued to rant about: have prophets? The LDS ‘Manifesto’ is a good example of this, and why there are so many of these polygamist cults McConkie makes reference to. (I Use this as an example, not to go off on a discussion of Polygamy)
The manifesto directly contradicts the teaching in the D&C that polygamy is an eternal principle that must be practiced. “all those who have this law revealed unto them MUST OBEY the same…” (D&C 132:3)
Can missionaries or any mormon make a case against this? NO. The practice was discontinued because it was against the law. The smithians had the option to move out of the United States, but they did not. Why? If this COMMANDMENT from God takes precedence, then why did they stay and disobey the LORD? Why did Joseph F. Smith CONTINUE plural marriages (for a short time) after the Manifesto?
What then, are mormons to base McConkie’s observations on, if their ‘prophets’ even contradict and give commandments in direct violation to their standard works? If statements made by mormon prophets are not to be heeded, again why have them? If they are in direct communication with God, would they not know his nature, and who he is? How could BY have taught that Adam was God then, and how can later Prophets and Apostles be justified in saying he did not know God if he was a Proptet?
Taken logically, their system falls apart. God is not the author of confusion. This must be made known to the missionaries that come to visit, and they MUST be made to answer these questions.
Missionaries present a ‘watered down’ version of Mormonism, that when put to the test, fails miserably. McConkie is using the same logic that Christians use about the Bible. The way mormons get around this is to say the Bible is ‘incomplete’ and that ‘many plain and precious things’ were not taught. Since Young taught Adam-God, is this perhaps a ‘plain and precious truth’ that somehow got left out of the Bible? And by what right do those that came after him have to call it false doctrine? Which prophet is right?
We have what we need. It is all there in the Bible. It is centered on Jesus, not joe smith, brigham young and their heresies. Believe in Jesus and the Bible and use McConkie’s logic and end it there. Throw off the chains of Mormonism and come back to Jesus and the true Way.
Investigate and ask why Monson use PR tactics to that do not get to the meat of their cult. For more information go to: http://www.mrm.org/. Bill McKeever, Aaron, Sharon & the rest have done an excellent job of collecting all you need to know.
Again, thank you Aaron and MRM.ORG.
D James Kennedy once wrote that effective evangelism requires friendly relationships…
all too often we see the self-proclaimed Ev ignore this advice and subscribe to the more tyrannical approach of degradation, insult, and inflammatory rhetoric. This reveals the true nature of their message, and the true nature of the messenger they serve.
You see even DJK understood that evangelism did not end with the “witness”, but it was actually based on a loving discipling relationship. This crucial aspect is lost on the typical Ev poster, and the phantom lurker is sensible enough to discern this detour off the path shown by Jesus.
How does one become a “fisher of men”? By slapping at the water and mocking the fish? What manner of bait is used? where are the best fishing holes?….is the same cynicism applied to Jesus who is blatantly trying to get people “on the hook”?
DJK certainly understod how important the “numbers” were and he was never shy in discussing the importance of not just conversion, but attendance.
As many aggressors here prove the warning of Paul about the wiles of the devil. Look about these posts and discover who speaks from their heart and who yelps from their belly. The proud and boastful reveal themselves here and they offer little more than vitriol.
1 Cor 13:4
for the misled Ev
Hebrews 3:13 Hebrews 10:24
and for my Mormon friends
Ephesians 6:10-18
that being said…how does he average Ev poster here recognize their own missionary opportunities?
Whenever I have been involved in evangelism and outreach it has been to bring people to a decision regarding faith in Jesus Christ. That’s what Christianity is all about. Methodists don’t try to get people to come to belief in John Wesley. Lutherans don’t try to get people to believe in Martin Luther. Likewise with any of the other Christian denominations.
But belief in Mormonism is predicated on coming to faith in Joseph Smith. Hymns are sung to him. In the view of Mormons, Smith has become a god. A Mormon missionary training video I viewed urged the trainees to take people to “that little grove of trees” where according to legend Smith saw God the Father and Jesus, which BTW was quite a thing because the Father doesn’t have a body.
In Christianity we take people to the Cross where Jesus died and shed His blood for our sins. Jesus or Joseph? Mormons choose Joseph and make Jesus an add-on after thought. Jesus doesn’t even make number one in the Mormon four or five point belief system. As Christians we understand that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. There isn’t anyone else who can save us from our sins. There isn’t any man standing between believers and God the Father. There is One who delivers us into the arms of the Father, Jesus the Christ.
To put some things in context:
“Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for JUDGEMENT to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” (1 Peter 4:12-18)
Put on the full armor of God so that you can TAKE YOUR STAND against the devil’s schemes. (Ephesians 6:11)
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will FEARLESSLY make known the mystery of the gospel…. (Ephesians 6:19)
“Them that sin REBUKE before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20)
Jesus entered the temple area and DROVE OUT all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.’” (Matthew 21)
“And when he had looked round about on them with ANGER, being grieved for the HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand.”—Mark 3:5.
“I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you CANNOT ENDURE evil men, and you PUT THEM TO THE TEST, those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them [to be] false; (Revelation 2:2)
grindael,
The Bible gives us one consistent test to determine the true from the false apostles. Are they right, accurate, true especially in their predictions. Mormon prophets are wrong on all points. They don’t even take a shot at predicting the future any more. Their proclamations are mainly generic exhortations that anyone could make. According to McConkie’s rather confused condemnation of BY Adam-God doctrine, BY must be condemned. Some prophet. One confused mess this Mormonism.
setfree, thank you for the nod. It is encouraging.
Sub, you kill me. Look inside your own heart before you begin lambasting the Christian who minister here. You expect them to meekly crawl into a corner and beg, “Please be my friend.” As you mock and twist the message of the gospel? I have tried being kind to you, and your response is always full of vitriol and spite. It was lovely how you attacked J.J.M., then offered a paultry apology if you had judged her incorrectly.
Did you see any mockery from me in my heartfelt presentation of the gospel? I don’t know her, but I care for her, and I let her know it. I didn’t sugar coat the message of sin and judgment in an effort to woo her into my church. I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelesness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price, not only those who work hard enough, tithe enough, pray enough, and act perfect enough. Why didn’t you offer her a few words of encouragement about how the “one true church” had the answers to her problems? You had a perfect opportnity as her “brother” to offer her condolences or counsel. Or is the message, “Quit your whining and listen to the priesthood! No true smithian would expose their doubts. The church is true no matter what you uncover or how you feel about it.”
Your true colors really came out in the last thread, and your true heart really comes out in this one.
I don’t have a problem with looking for situations in which a person can deliver an important message.
I think of it as “payload”. In most delivery systems (e.g. the Space Shuttle) the “payload” makes up only a small component of the whole. Its a crude metaphor, but it means you’ve got to do a lot of work before you get to “deliver” the message you want; you’ll spend a seemingly inordinate amount of effort building the delivery system.
The equivalent in Pres. Monson’s message above would be what he terms “the penetrating questions: firstly who do you know who has recently lost a loved one…”
What I’m thinking, is that all this missionary effort goes towards the delivery of these “penetrating questions”, so they must be of central importance.
However, these penetrating questions of central importance throw the whole burden of action onto the member family to search their personal contacts for people in vulnerable or stressful situations, which is questionable of itself.
Doesn’t anyone care that these vulnerable people might actually need something other than a cheesy message about joining a church so that they can tithe and press their freinds and relations to join too.
Stepping back, I’m dismayed at Monson’s choice of payload. What he has delivered is a program of micro-management and social engineering. Where is the work of Christ in this?
Contrast Jesus and the NT authors, who set the pattern for Christian teaching. They kept their precious payload tightly focussed on Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2).
If I found myself at the crucial moment with a penetrating question, I think I’d echo Jesus in Matt 16:15-16
Surely this is the starting point for ALL church programs, including those that seek to help people in vulnerable situations.
Oh, look! That’s what Jesus goes on to say in Matt 16:18-19
Martin
“family to search their personal contacts for people in vulnerable or stressful situations”
how is having a newborn child a “vulnerable or stressful situation”? Sure, it can be exhausting, but hardly the scenario you are portraying.
“..cheesy message about joining a church so that they can tithe and press their freinds and relations to join too”
once again we see the Ev capacity to infer and presume facts that are not in evidence, especially when it suits their “message”.
President Monson never once mention, not implies, membership in the above video.
What he does say is “comfort” “teach” and “fellowship”.
President McKay once said “every member a missionary”…this is a peculiar message…because for Mormons, missionary work is a 24/7 occupation….but the “mission” is fulfilled in many many ways.
The way we live our daily lives is the most important mission we serve. We consider our “example” to be the best missionary tool there is…and our mission is not all about tithing and names on a roll (quite cynical these days is ‘de la Brisabane’)….our mission is to bring the Gospel to those who need it, those who have not heard it, and to those who would celebrate it.
The Ev tries so hard, so desperately hard, to cast nefarious shadows over the Mormon church are those that try to kill the church. They may stab at the body but they can not even prick the soul…for though they attack the body of the LDS church its soul is steeped in the Gospel. Do not be distracted by their doublespeak…remember Matthew 10:28
For if there are any “lurking” about on this board know that any fear these mongerers is not real, the only fear you may feel is because there is someone in this world that does not want you to find the truth, there is someone that will always “accuse”…recognize Hebrews 10:32-35
good luck
Hebrews 3:12
2 Cor 5:11
I wanted to let subgenius know that I in no way meant for my comment to be taken as a non-mormon trying to fool someone with my remarks. I am LDS.
Thank you for saying sorry in case you were wrong about me, I appreciate it.
I thank you setfree.
And liv4jc…
Thank you for all your kind words, especially these… (they made me cry)
“Did you see any mockery from me in my heartfelt presentation of the gospel? I don’t know her, but I care for her, and I let her know it. I didn’t sugar coat the message of sin and judgment in an effort to woo her into my church. I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelesness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price, not only those who work hard enough, tithe enough, pray enough, and act perfect enough. Why didn’t you offer her a few words of encouragement about how the “one true church” had the answers to her problems? You had a perfect opportnity as her “brother” to offer her condolences or counsel…”
The last part is true also…
I still am expected to suck up my grief and go to church every Sunday teach my class in YW and act like all is right in my world. This is not all the leaders fault, they asked my husband if he wanted out of his calling to deal with himself and now his son. He said No. Everyone forgot to ask me how I felt…
As a matter of fact no one has talked to me about any part of my family situation. Not two years ago when my husband was diagnosed and not now when my son has been diagnosed.
I just realized this. As my daughter says, “Sudden realization sucks.”
The message of “comfort,” which is the message one would expect a caring individual to deliver in these circumstances, is the message that is missing from President Monson’s instructions. Mr. Monson calls for “contacting,” “teaching,” and “fellowshipping,” not “comforting.”
Furthermore, as Mr. Monson is calling for the achievement of optimum productivity for the Mission, it is no stretch at all to recognize that the goal of the “contacting, teaching and fellowshipping” is in line with the missionary’s purpose: “Baptizing and confirming the people you teach is central to your purpose,” says Preach My Gospel (page 9).
liv4JC said: “I gave her the truth, which is the most loving thing I can do. This life is often full of hopelessness, but the true gospel of Jesus Christ offers everyone hope without price…”
Amen brother. Amen!
A guy like sub isn’t going to be won by any approach, imho.
J.J.M.
I’m so glad to see you’re still here. I don’t know if you’ve seen it so far… but the Christians out here are trying to share what they have that brings them so much peace and joy, and it has nothing to do with any organization, no one here will ever benefit from what they’re selling (well, not financially or whatever, but definitely in their hearts!).
I was telling someone recently… when my mom (who had been super Mormon) realized what the Bible was saying, and figured out that “the church” is a load a crock, she had already taught all of her kids Mormonism all of their lives. But she was brave enough to call us up and say “I don’t believe that Joe Smith is a prophet.” When she called me, I fell through the floor. My world, after that, the entire thing, crashed down. And it was the beginning of everything wonderful. It was just what God had to do to get all the crap out of my life, and rebuild me.
He is the most awesome thing you could ever find in this life, and HE WILL HELP
love to you
As long as you are considered a “prospect” for conversion or reactivation these guys are really friendly, well as friendly as stalkers can be. Once you show that you have no interest in the mind control cult they are peddling they become phantoms. Having lived in Utah, and moved around, Mormons always show up first to meet and greet. Once they get the drift that your an apostate or just not interested, they vaporize. After a couple of months you couldn’t pick em out of a Police lineup. Mormon lurkers confused about their own weird behavior, please see http://www.watchman.org/na/assist3.htm
haha.. that’s true. when i moved back to my home town, the church (knowing full well that i am not only ex-mormon but studiedly so) did not send any friendly troops over (who may have listened) but just the local bishop of my “ward”. He paid one visit, saying “anything we can do, just call on us”, and a month later, when I saw him, he acted like he couldn’t remember my name. No one else has ever showed up. Including the missionaries. We’re black-listed over here, it’s too bad. But they don’t want me engaging any “innocents” in conversation that might lead them to knowing something meaningful. lol
Sharon
my apologies for the error in “transcription”…it is indeed “contact”….i withdraw “comfort” from above statement.
yes, baptism and confirmation are central to the purpose…but the purpose is not membership as the cynic would assume.
Membership is important but Faith trumps that and a Faith based on truth even trumps that. Perhpas “Preach My Gosel” should be explored further, I too have a copy.
For now i suppose we should sit back and let the Ev carry on this wonderful conversation they are having while they stroll down memory lane.
poor persecuted Ev fro mthe big bad Mormon conspiracy machine…choo choo
“membership is important”
yes, it it of utmost importance. whether any LDS reader/poster believes this personally, it IS part of the current doctrine.
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
if you go to the above page, and click on the word “ordinance” in the text, you’ll see this quote:
“Some ordinances, such as baptism, are essential for salvation.”
What kind of baptism? Click on ‘baptism’ on the same page, or go to the glossary and read the description there. Baptism into the LDS church.
Putting the two together: Baptism into the LDS church IS ESSENTIAL FOR SALVATION.
see… no more trying to fool the people
setfree
I have seen that the Christians are being sincere in sharing the gospel with me. I have been reading all of the comments that were left, whether they were for me or not.
You need to know that the things people have written are not falling on deaf ears. I would not be here if I did not have questions. I have never been on any site that the church would disapprove of in my life, until recently. I was raised to stay away from beliefs and people that would cause my to have any doubts.
I have started viewing sites like this one not because I doubted my faith but because I have had lots of questions that have plagued me since my husband’s diagnosis. It is the answers to my questions that I am finding are leading me not to be stronger in my faith but away from it. I have always found until now that all trials in my life have made me a stronger mormon but not this time. (AND yes, I have had hard trials before now; including the death of my mother when I was 18. So, it is not that this trial is harder just that it made me think more.)
I wanted to know:
Where do all my plans sit now? Will I still be able to serve a mission with my spouse? How do I feel about all the years I have served in the church (14)? Did I waste years that I could have been spending with my family? Are people always asking for me to do to much? Why don’t I ever say no? Why is my welfare and that of my families not as important as serving everyone else?
then came the big ones…
Are we worthy enough for the celestial kingdom? Have I done enough? and more important did I feel my husband was worthy? (do not get me wrong he is the best man I know) Could he be good enough to create a world with? Could any of us? Did I want to be responsible for a people?
(continued)
The thing I realized from asking these questions is that as good as I may be I am no where near qualified to sit in judgment of any person. I, my self, am judgmental, selfish, and have a heart (that I used to think was pure, as in Jacob 3:1-3) that is not pure. It is an awful thing to see in yourself, all the things you think you are not, but it is the thing that is leading me to realize there are answers out there and I just do not have them, not get anyways.
Thanks
J.J.M. I got chills reading that. Like I can actually see God’s call on your life. I know how precious it is to see yourself as God sees you (not good enough) and then to realize that He has been waiting to free you from the burden of trying to be. It’s amazing, the walk into His Grace, through Jesus, who says “there is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION”. It’s so freeing, so beautiful to understand that He (Jesus) WAS THE ONLY ONE EVER to be good enough, because He is a part of THE ONLY GOD… and that the God who made us is big enough to understand, to have it already seen it beginning to end, and to have been leading you to where you are today, so that you will come to Him and offer the only thing you can… yourself, just as you are, as a trade in for the Salvation He already paid for in Jesus.
All of the sudden, when you go to the Almighty God, and ask Him to let Jesus’ blood cover you (meaning, that His payment on the cross apply to you becaues you are going to trust in Him completely) too, you find yourself in a position of FORGIVENESS FIRST, a position where every mistake you make is forgiven. It is in that place that you joyfully are able to love GOd the way He intended, and begin to live in His presence.
I can hear it in what you are saying… I’m shouting Hallelujah over here that you seem to be on the verge of being free in Christ…
Sub,
Where are you getting your info on the late D. James Kennedy?
Well, I have been trying to barge in here and give my two cents, but my posts have been erased twice, so I’ll stop barging with so much content. Setfree you are doing an amazing job in witnessing how God worked on your life and brought you out of the LDS church. Your witness is not inadequate.
J.J.M., Jesus is calling you. Setfree is right. It is plain as day. You have already confessed here openly that you don’t know the answers and that you are undeserving of God’s mercy because of the sins in your life. Take that same confession to Christ, and ask Him to become Lord of your life. You don’t need to know all the answers now. In the moment you do that you will pass from death to life and be born from above (John 3:3). You have God’s promise on that. Understanding can wait, we all started out as confused as new born babies.
JJM,
Although I do not know what exactly you are going through, I can empathise with you as I have similar circumstances. My wife’s mother died of breast cancer about a month ago. This is genetic and my wife has already had a scare and is now on a preventative screen programme. I have 3 daughters who are possibile future sufferers of this affliction. My wife also has a couple of mental problems which makes home life and our relationship very strained – and makes me sole provider, primary carer and protector of my children. My oldest daughter has been diagnosed with diabetes and depression and I have difficulties getting her motivated and out of bed – she is following her mother’s example here. Our son was still-born about 11 years ago, which made me question many things. I work in research and my hours are pretty much 24 hours/day if I am to succeed. And I have a churh calling.
First and foremost I would suggest something that I have done. Ask Heavenly Father for His assistance – then look for it and accept it from where ever it comes. As it says in the scriptures – lay your burden at Jesus’ feet and He will lighten your load. Yes, serving others is great and what is expected of us and what Jesus taught us to do. But in the BoM it does say that we should not run faster than we are able. If you fell like you are burning out, then you are trying to run faster than you are able. Through this I have found much peace and joy and have been able to do what I need to for my family.
Next I suggest talking with the bishop about your circumstances so that he can understand that you need either a release or assistance in your calling. Let him know that you are having difficulties coping with the strain at the moment.
Humans tend to see the physically sick and injured but tend not to see the emotionally/mentally sick/injured. I know, I have been overlooked because of my wife’s and daughter’s predicaments – but you don’t have to put up with it. That is what the church is there for. Once you have spoken with your bishop, he will most likely talk with your RS president. But in case he doesn’t there is nothing wrong with you doing that and asking for the help that you need. If you don’t ask, you most likely will not receive. I don’t like asking others for help, it’s just pride on my behalf. But one of the things Heavenly Father has done to lighten my load is to make me humble enough to do just that – ask for help when I need it. It’s taken me about 8 years of living in these conditions to finally ask for assistance.
But I have found comfort and solace from Heavenly Father in and through the true gospel of Jesus Christ in the LDS church and I know that you can too. Trust in Him and ask Him for what you need and He will provide.
for J.J.M. (and Ralph, for that matter
)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFxArMeRDI
Ralph, I think you have sort of a mixed blend of Christianity and mormonism, like lots of Mormons do. What you offer (the LDS church) is the chains. What you believe is that you have been blessed by God, and I believe you have as well. Only, you seek to give the church the credit, and I wish you would stop doing that.
The true gospel of Jesus Christ, that your church offers, is “all the commandments, principles, ordinances, and covenants”. Check out http://www.mormon.org, and you can verify.
It’s a long list of commandments, covenants that no one can keep perfectly, and at the end of it all, there’s the marvelous promise that only IF you keep all you covenants will Jesus forgive you and let you into heaven. You may be able to hopefully dream that your church represents God, but thank GOD IT DOES NOT!
Ralph, thank you for the look into your personal life. I will pray for you. I thank God that He has blessed me with such an easy life in comparison. I cannot even begin to understand your struggles and fatigue. I want to take you to Matthew 11:28-30. Your church interprets this that Jesus’ burdens and requirements are lighter than Heavenly Father’s, but He still has requirements that you must follow: not only God’s commandments, but Joseph Smith’s as well.
In Jesus’ day the Pharisees had tied extra burdens onto the people through the oral law called the Mishna, and their strict interpretation of the Law. The extra burdens were found nowhere in the OT, and Jesus was constantly at odds with them because of this. This was often called “the yolk”. Your church is much like the Pharisees, adding extra burdens onto God’s commandments that you are required to keep to earn righteousness. And what is the purpose of the Law in the first place? Nowhere in the NT does it say that salvation comes through keeping of the Law. I fact it condemns those who try to earn salvation through the keeping of laws and ordinances. The purpose of the Law is to convict us of sin so that we run to Christ for forgiveness and righteousness (Romans 3:19-20).
You don’t have to go to your bishop for a release from your burdens, Ralph, and neither does J.J.M. Jesus has taken that burden from you in His life’s blood. He has payed your debt completely and taken the yolk of the Law upon Himself. He fulfilled the Law because we cannot. Salvation is through the name of Jesus (the Biblical Jesus, that is) and nothing else.
After explaining in Romans 7 that the Law brings only the knowledge of sin and death, Paul proclaims in verse 24,25, “O wretched man that I am! Who will save me from this body of death? I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!” What does Romans 8:1 say? “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus…”
Let down your burdens, Ralph.
JJM,
Somebody once said
“looking back on one’s life, it’s one of the things that strike you most forcibly–that the only thing that’s taught anyone anything is suffering. Not success, not happiness, not anything like that. The only thing that really teaches one what life’s about–the joy of understanding, the joy of coming in contact with what life really signifies–is suffering, affliction”
cont
Realize your not alone in this world.
I think a good start might be to not to listen to Sub or Ralph. I’m guessing guys like them drove you here looking for answers.
Trust the God of the Bible, if you can’t, figure out why, and learn to trust him.
There are many things on the other side of that.
Keep in mind you have a kind and loving creator that is involved with you in ways you can’t possibly imagine. He always has your best interest at heart even when you don’t.
Try to understand that much of what goes on in this life is for the welfare of your soul.
Gather up strength through prayer, you don’t always need to drop to your knees in focused prayer, sometimes it is simply an agreement between your heart and your mind.
Understand that Jesus did not come into the world to found a Church but to proclaim a Kingdom. They are not the same thing.
Look to Paul’s example,stripes, stones, shipwrecks, and thorns in the flesh were religious experiences for him.
Love and only love, to you
Setfree,
The only true peace and comfort comes through the true gospel of Jesus Christ. That we both agree on. We also agree that there is only one path back to Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity, and that is through the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Where that gospel is found is what differs between us – that is why I specified where I found it, in the LDS church. I attributed my finding of peace and comfort to Heavenly Father and that is where it came from.
As far as the ‘commandments’ that you say we need to follow, Jesus Himself gave us commandments to follow in the Bible – the greatest one was to love one another as He loved us. But He always re-iterated the 10 commandments in His teachings showing us that we still need to live them. Even Paul in His epistles does the same thing.
From what I understand after many conversations on this site, we LDS and you Evs believe similarly in works and faith but we differ in timing. You believe that once one has a belief in Jesus then they are saved despite what they have and will do. The Holy Ghost should change their lives so that they emulate Jesus more. If one continues to do bad things then they never really had belief in Jesus and thus were not saved. This still implicates works in salvation, else one could commit hundreds of murders and adulteries a day and still be saved.
We believe that one gains faith in Jesus and then through that faith the Holy Ghost assists that person to live the life Jesus wants us to. It tis through what we do in our lives by our faith that ultimately we will be judged on on the Day of Judgement. That is when we will be saved. That is why we are taught to endure to the end.
So in your faith, if one does not do good works after they claim to have found Jesus then they most likely are not saved (but there is a possibility they are according to some on this site) – while in my faith, we are saved on the Day of Judgement by our faith, which is judged by our works as the Bible teaches.
Hay J.J.M.
You are a breath of fresh air. Please keep posting. After a coupled of years battling on MC with hardcore Mormons, reading your posts gives me hope that their are actually Mormons out there in the world who ask the tough questions and are seeking answers. Our exMormon friend jackg who posts here calls this the “contemplative” stage.
Here’s the bottom-line, as the other Christian posters have made so clear, it’s all about Jesus and what He did on the Cross. We come to Christ tired, broken and wounded and He gives us comfort in our time of need. In my own life I can attest to the fact that what Jesus is asking us is to take up our Cross and follow him regardless of our circumstances.
It wasn’t long after I had received Christ as my Savior that I was experiencing a pretty tough time of it with a lot of mental anguish. I didn’t know the Bible at all but I had started reading it. In a particularly bad moment, God led me to 2 Corinthians 12:9. “And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.” 2 Corinthians 12:10, Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.” This was about 37 years ago and I wish I could report that I’ve “lived happily ever after”. Nope that’s not how it’s worked out in my life. But I’ve come to realize that God did enough for me on the Cross. Anything else I receive is a bonus.
Again, please stick around here.
This story reminds me of story that the Issues Etc. Radio program covered. Todd Wilken, the host of the show, interviewed a pastor who had a young 20 something attendee at Church who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and died. I wish I could find the link to this story online and link to it, but I forget the title and who the pastor was. Basically, a young man who was attending services at Church and was engaged to be married had been accompanying his bride to be and her family to Church on Sundays. His family were not believers. Unexpectedly, just before he was to marry his young fiance’, the young man found he had pancreatic cancer and became very ill. The mother of this young man waited for the pastor to come to visit her son in the hospital and then accosted the pastor angrily – “how could God do this!” He suggested they get something to eat in the hospital cafeteria and talk, diffusing the immediate situation. The story went on to tell how the woman came to faith trusting in Christ crucified for her sins, and how her life was transformed – her anger with God went away and she ran to Him for comfort and forgiveness – God’s amazing grace. Her son also came to faith in Christ before his death, through the ministry of this Lutheran minister. At her son’s funeral – she insisted the pastor tell the attendees about Jesus crucified for their sins – His amazing sacrifice on our behalf. Sometimes God can use even the worst things in our lives to draw us, I know he has in my life. It’s not about Church membership, or doing the right things, it’s about Christ crucified for our sins – His abundant mercy despite our rebellion and sin. How great is his mercy! We cannot know the depths of what God has done for us.
Ralph said,while in my faith, we are saved on the Day of Judgement by our faith, which is judged by our works as the Bible teaches.
How do 2nd anointing’s fit into that Ralph?
Wow bwfjr,
Where’s the love? I’m broken up and hurting after I bared my soul and you just dismissed it with a ‘do not listen to Ralph’ comment. How can you be so cruel? I thought you believe that Jesus wanted you to love everyone.
Note about what I have said in my first posts – I told JJM to seek comfort and peace and help from Heavenly Father and Jesus. I never told her to go to the church to find it. The advice to see the bishop was just about her calling in the church. I did tell her how I found it and mentioned that part of my peace came through the teachings of the true gospel found in the LDS church, but again, this is telling her how I found it, not telling/pushing her to go there to find it.
So what is offensive about those comments? You are telling her exactly the same thing – where you have found your peace and solace and where your beliefs lie. Why should she listen to you and not me? If she wants to know the truth and find her peace then she should listen to all with an open mind and make her choice. I do care if she decides not to believe in the LDS church anymore, but that is her prerogative and decision. It is the Spirit that converts, not me, and it is the Spirit that she should seek because that is how Heavenly Father will give her the comfort and peace.
JJM,
Go to Heavenly Father, seek Him out and He will give you what you need. It may not be what you thought it would but He will answer.
Also, do not leave your husband out of this – it affects him just as much as it affects you, and as husband and wife you two should be unified in all things. The emotional sharing of the pain will help you two grow stronger. That is one thing I wish I did when our son died, but I handled things differently to my wife and we grew apart for a while until we went to grief counselling and the counsellor told me off for cutting my wife out.
David W
DJK info came from his book – 4th edition.
setfree
yet another bending of words by the Ev. Baptism is essential to salvation (true for all of us here) but the website nor LDS doctrine state that you have to baptized into LDS church…simply because Baptism alone does not make one a member. You should get with other Ev posters and hone your fabrication skills….and yes, I still have suspicions about JJM.
David W
DJK info came from his book – 4th edition.
setfree
yet another bending of words by the Ev. Baptism is essential to salvation (true for all of us here) but the website nor LDS doctrine state that you have to baptized into LDS church…simply because Baptism alone does not make one a member. You should get with other Ev posters and hone your fabrication skills….and yes, I still have suspicions about JJM.
bfwjr
hogwash
all this talk about only through suffering can one truly learn is simply hogwash.
is nothing learned in a shared smile with a baby?
is nothing learned with helping a person in need….etc….
Ralph said:I do care if she decides not to believe in the LDS church anymore, but that is her prerogative and decision.
OHHH sure.
sub said: hogwash,
is that what your talking about with the lather,rinse, repeat?
sub yet again:I still have suspicions about JJM.
shes Hogwash too?
Setfree,
I ask because there is a famous quote were he says something to the effect that it has been his experience that the majority of people in church (based of those in his churches) were not Christians. And those are Ev churches! D. James Kennedy did not have a fluffy gospel.
liv4jc,
Thanks for the kind words. Just know, I did not share for sympathy or anything like that, I was just trying to let a person going through a rough time know how I overcame a rough time.
I believe that your life would be difficult for me to live in comparison to what I live now. Why? Because in the Bible it says that God is faithful and will not put us through anything we cannot handle without His help. Well, God believes that I can handle this which is why He has given it to me. However, He does not believe that I could handle the problems you have in your life so He has not given them to me. So all is relative and just as difficult as the next person.
Bfwjr,
I don’t know what you mean by second annointing because I don’t remember hearing it myself.
But if you are saved now, then what is the point of Judgement Day where all are judged? Wouldn’t you be able to skip the judgement and go straight to heaven without passing go and collecting $200? And because those who are saved are already known it stands to reason that those damned are already known – so the question again – Wouldn’t they be able to skip the judgement and go straight to hell without passing go and collecting $200? That would make things much quicker and easier for God in the long run.
Ralph said:I don’t know what you mean by second annointing because I don’t remember hearing it myself.
It must have been in a dream I had, sorry.
Ralph said:But if you are saved now, then what is the point of Judgment Day where all are judged?
Must have been in that same dream.
Best to you and the Mrs.
Ralph,
Everyone will be judged and those not found righteous will be condemned. If God is judging any of your works you will be condemned because they are not good enough. If he judges any of my works i will be condemned because none of them are good enough…But because I am in Christ God will look on me and judge Christ’s works because only he is righteous and by faith will his righteousness be counted to me. Romans 3:21, 4:5-6 and a whole host of others I’m too tired to list.
So Ralph how do you think judgement day is going to look for you? Will God say ‘Ralph you did pretty good, you tried hard and you slipped some but you were able to follow my commands 75% of the time and since you have faith in Jesus you’ll have the add’l 25% counted to you?’ This is my understanding of the Mormon ‘after all you can do’ gospel. Is this an adequate understanding (I believe it’s been explained on other threads here as needing $20 to buy something, only having $15, and Jesus paying the add’l $5)
Ralph, this is what happens because we are using the same words to describe something totally different.
rvales did an excellent (and brief!) job of explaining that we will all be judged, but those of us “in CHrist” will be judged by HIS WORKS, which were perfect.
I listened to an interview, just recently, with a guy who left the church and became a Christian. The interviewer asked “what do you miss most about the LDS church?” The man said something really interesting and accurate.
He said that if you’ve been in the dark all your life, sure, there must have been things you can enjoyed. But once you’re out in the light… you can look back and see that nothing you ever knew before compares to what you have now.
That is what we’re dealing with here, I know from having had the same experience
The “second anointing” or ‘calling and election made sure’ evolved over time. It was first called the Second Comforter, and was a requirement of the apostolic calling in the early days of smith’s church. It was first said to be having Jesus appear to the person to be his constant companion, and he would reveal to them ‘the mysteries of the kingdom’ and give them infallibility. The anointing is now relegated to a ceremony that only apostles can recommend that someone be ‘nominated’ for, usually old men and their wives. It was done by candidate recommendation of a stake president, but this was discontinued in the 1920’s.
Bruce McConkie in ‘The Promised Messiah’ quotes Cowdery: “In the general charge to all of the Twelve, Elder Cowdery said: “It is necessary that you receive a testimony from heaven to yourselves; so that you can bear testimony to the truth of the Book of Mormon, and that you have seen the face of God. That is more than the testimony of an angel. When the proper time arrives, you shall be able to bear this testimony to the world. When you bear testimony that you have seen God, this testimony of God will NEVER SUFFER YOU TO FALL, but will bear you out; although many will not give heed, yet others will. You will therefore see the necessity of getting this testimony from heaven. “Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. Strengthen your faith; cast off your doubts, your sins, and all your unbelief: and nothing can prevent you from coming to God. Your ordination IS NOT FULL AND COMPLETE till God has laid his hand upon you. WE REQUIRE AS MUCH TO QUALIFY US as did those who have gone before us; God is the same. If the Savior in former days laid his hands upon his disciples, why not in latter days?”
Has this changed in the mormon church? If the 15 ‘prophets’ are special witnesses to Jesus (having SEEN him) should not all mormons believe them when they preach over the pulpit? This would sure clear up the Mary Thread. (But try getting an apostle or prophet to admit to any of this today – they won’t because then they would be held accountable. Joseph F. Smith at the Reed Smoot hearings denied he ever had a ‘revelation’ except a testimony that mormonism is true). But He lied about polygamy…so…perhaps he had Jesus there telling him to deny everything! Those danged Gentile Yankees!
Here is the doctrine laid out by joe himself:
“After a man so devotes himself to righteousness that his calling and election is made sure, “then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter,” the Prophet says. “Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even he will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and HE MAY HAVE A PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of the mysteries of the kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions — Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.” (Teachings OTPJS)
The “first anointing” refers to the washing and anointing part of the Endowment ceremony, in which a person is anointed to become a king and priest or a queen and priestess “unto the Most High God.” In the second anointing, on the other hand, participants are anointed as a king and priest, or queen and priestess. When the anointing is given, according to Brigham Young, the participant “will then have received the fullness of the Priesthood, all that can be given on earth.”
Thus, the Second Anointing differs from the “first anointing” (part of the Endowment ceremony) in that, the first anointing promises blessings in the afterlife contingent on the patron’s faithfulness, the Second Anointing actually bestows those blessings. According to McConkie, those who have their Calling and Election made sure “receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. . . . [T]heir exaltation is assured.” (Mormon Doctrine, Page 109)
So yes, this does take away from Christ’s judgement. It gives the men in smith’s church the power to ‘ordain’ men & women to exaltation without a judgement. (They get their ‘kingdoms’ later with their ‘free pass’ by joe & adam-god).
It’s not just a matter of the LDS church hiding behind a smokescreen of confused language trying to get the general public to think they are ev. Christians, but it’s also a matter of the LDS church hiding who the Mormon god is and the works-righteousness program of the fraudulent “restored” gospel of the false prophet Joseph Smith.
We see by the video presentation that the Mormon gospel is spread in a dishonest way attempting to exploit people in their most vulnerable moments. I can’t think of a stronger word than despicable to describe these tactics. “The ends justifies the means” comes to mind here. Once sucked into the program, the recruit finds out that in order to reach the highest level of the Mormon Celestial kingdom, they have to contribute a significant amount of their income as a buy in to the temple where the work is done to obtain the brass ring of godhood.
This religion has been a con job ever since Joseph Smith hauled out his magic rock and convinced people he saw things he never saw. The legacy of the fraud continued with the seduction of women who were promised, along with their families, entry into Smith’s heaven. Exploiting and confusing people for the gain of the organization is part and parcel of the Mormon experience.
Hey Free,
“listened to an interview, just recently, with a guy who left the church…” Have you got a link to this?
I look back at my escape and what is weird to me is that I knew of Gerald and Sandra Tanner and their ministry, but I never went to see them because had I been so indoctrinated that they were the bad guys. It would have saved me a lot of grief. My “built in Mormonism” was constraining my search for truth. What should have taken months,took years. This was just pre internet days. I was living in SLC and had only one Christian friend.
bfwjr, actually, yeah, i was hoping to share it, cuz he says lots of terrific stuff
http://www.mscbc.org/video/vid_AR_steven_kay.htm
Free
thanx. Happy to see your Mother wised up, it would give me great comfort if my would…I think it’s just a matter of time.
rvales
read the whole Bible..especially the part about judgement and the book of life etc….
pay particular attention to the part where Jesus says that He won’t know anyone that does not know Him.
One does not even get to be judged without “knowing” Jesus…so this begs the question as to what He is judging, and the scriptures are pretty clear about that…do not assume the apostate doctrine of the “easy way”
…and ask yourself why names can be written and erased from the Book of life…a crucial hint to “free agency”.
Rvales and Setfree,
You must have a different Bible to me. This is what I read in mine –
Matt 12:35-37 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. (Our words will condemn or justify us, not Jesus’)
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Note ‘his works’ NOT ‘His works’)
Matt 25:31-46 Especially vv 40, 45-46 where Jesus says it is their doing (ie inasmuch as YE have/have not done; NOT inasmuch as I [as in Jesus] have/have not done) that rewards them with “And these [the ones who did not help others] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” These verses bring in the importance of faith in Jesus and its expression in our works – ie faith without works is dead.
Revelation 20:12-15 This states clearly that “they were judged every man according to their works.” Not Jesus’ works. These verses refer to everyone who lived on this earth as it discusses both those who have their name in the Book of Life and those who do not.
JJM wrote
Faith in what, or whom, JJM?
If its faith in yourself, or faith in your religion, or faith in your church, or even faith in your ability to have faith, then you’re going to get shaken to the very core of your being.
Put your faith in the person and work of Jesus, the Uncreated One, who shakes everything that is created:
Heb 12:26-29
But please know this, that this same One bore your suffering in his own body
Isaiah 53:5-7
No-one loves you like He does. No-one is as capable of delivering you, because what He does, no-one can undo
Isaiah 43:11-13
JJM and Ralph,
I’d like to thank you both for opening up your personal experiences here. I’m sorry that Ralph felt that he got a hard time from some of the posters here as a result.
However, the Ev posters here have a valid point, and if JJM stays around long enough, I hope she sees it.
With Mormonism, its all about the Mormon Church – everything gets subjugated to the church (which is the central topic of this thread).
Except, that its not all about the Historic Mormon Church, because the popular version of Mormon Church History taught by the Mormon Church is radically different from the history written in the Mormon Church records. A mind trip maybe? That’s why I am not a Mormon.
With Christianity, its all about Christ, who has already subjugated all things to himself by the Cross (Col 2:15). The question of what you do about it flows from the question of whom this Christ is, which is why you need to see the historic Christ as reliably witnessed in the Bible.
Unfortunately, you won’t get this vision of Christ from the Mormon Church.
Ok Ralph and Sub
When you stand in judgement how do you think you’ll fair? When God says ‘I dunno…I don’t think you climbed your way out of the introductory level’ what are you gonna say?
If you want the law God will give you the law…but trust me you don’t want the law because you are not good enough! Your hearts are black, selfish and cold. You aren’t alone in that affliction we are all born this way with hearts of stone. The irony is that for Jesus to be magnified and glorified I don’t have to do more….I have to do less because it’s only when I shrink can he grow and abound in my life. So keep meeting your callings and exhausting your endless genealogies (which I believe we are advised against 1 Timothy 1:4) and continue to do all you can do. It will get you know where because all any human is capable of doing is sin. Even so called ‘good people’ are sinful. You see sin isn’t so much the outside action, it’s a heart matter. I pray that someday you’ll see that God- The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit wants you to rest to realize what was done on the cross and that there is no glory that you can add to it.
setfree,
Thank you very much for posting the testimonies of those young men.
Christians don’t ask much of Mormons, only that they be honest about the history, doctrines and beliefs of their religion. Mormons have a well deserved reputation of being dishonest and hiding what the real history of their church is and what Mormonism believes specifically about the nature of God and salvation. Mormons know very well that their ability to get people into the baptismal tank lessens with the more people know about Mormonism.
I thought the comment attributed to a BYU professor that “Mormons can believe whatever they want, they just can’t teach it” is an interesting inside observation.
Why do Mormons feel they have to hide what the believe and use ev. sounding terms when they know those terms don’t mean the same thing in Mormonism? It’s just very plainly to deceive and fool people. That’s really Intro to the Cults 101 for anyone involved in Christian apologetics.
To repeat; Mormonism started as a fraudulent religious sect by a fraudulent prophet and continues in that tradition today despite attempts of the SLC Mormon church to present a Norman Rockwell picture of the religion.
I had to leave yesterday to make cookies for young womens, but I am still listening.
Martin from Brisbane
I have never considered being agnostic or worse atheist, I meant my faith in the LDS church. I could never imagine believing that their is no God; what would be the point of being here except to just live and then die. The thought does not appeal to me.
Ralph
Thank you for at least being kind.
I always try to let my husband be in on any decisions that I make but talking about any doubt or even about illness is a forbidden topic in my house. He is a reasonable man but not about religion. And I let him push me away when it comes to illness because he feels a guilt over our sons illness that I cannot fathom. He even thinks that I should hate him. I wish that he would realize that I would never blame anyone, least of all him.
J.J.M.
Read What’s So Amazing About Grace by Philip Yancey see if your husband can/will read it as well. Grace, Forgiveness, and Love are really foreign and hard to accept concepts to humans and the idea that someone doesn’t hate you when you hate yourself is almost unimaginable. My husband had a huge breakthrough when he was able to accept that I didn’t hate him after what he had done to me and that helped him start to grasp that God didn’t hate him either. I’ll be praying for you and your husband.
rvales…..excellent points. The basics of the Christian faith are contained in that well known and often repeated Bible verse, “For God so loved the world that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.” Your right. It’s difficult for folks who have contempt for and not a lot of personal self-regard to imagine God loving them unconditionally. God doesn’t include a lot of add ons to His gospel. It’s all pretty simple; man’s sin separates him from God; we can’t close the gap even a little bit by trying to be good because God demands sinless perfection in order to be in His presence; when we acknowledge our sin re. repentance and receive through faith the free gift God offers us of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ, we have peace with Him and eternal life. Our behavior from that point on provides an outward witness of God’s inner grace extended to us. We are declared “not guilty” because Christ received whatever punishment we rightly deserve, on the Cross.
There are no religious rites or ceremonies or “works” involved in the Good News.
We’re sinners, we repent, we receive God’s gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus, we walk then according to the Spirit and not the flesh out of gratitude for what Christ did for us. If we do fall, He is faithful to forgive us.
Mormons and those caught in legalism can’t even begin to understand the freedom we have from the tyranny of religion.
Ralph, the answer to your question above, I believe, comes with “rightly dividing the word”.
Which means
You can’t pick up the Bible, read a verse, and assume it applies to you. You have to take into consideration who is speaking, and to whom.
Jesus primarily spoke to the Jews. The Jews were still under “the law”. When Jesus talked to them, before He died and rose again, He was all about fulfilling the law and the prophets.
The young man who came to Him saying that he had lived all the commandments since his youth? A Jew. He was trusting in his works, so Jesus made it clear that that wasn’t good enough. Are you telling me, Ralph, that you have kept all the commandments since your youth? If you had, and you told Jesus, and He said “Not good enough”, wouldn’t you be upset? And yet Jesus was trying to get him to realize just how IMPOSSIBLE it is to achieve God’s standard of Righteousness. Which is why ONE MUST STOP that kind of thinking, and become reborn (born of the spirit) in Christ.
Check out this verse:
Galatians 5:4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace”
What does that say to you Ralph? Did you know… it currently applies to you.
Christ is become of no effect unto Ralph, because you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.
You want to be in this position? Or do you want to quit seeing yourself as macho man for trying trying trying, and hand the reigns to Jesus?
Jeremiah is not a happy book… it’s all about judgment and being taken captive, etc. Check out what it says
Jer 48:6-7 “Flee, save your lives, and be like the heath in the wilderness. For because thou hast trusted in thy works and in thy treasures, thou shalt also be taken (into captivity)…”
This verse isn’t about you Ralph, but it shows the heart of God.
Those who trust in their works will be judged by them, and found unworthy
J.J.M.
Last night when I went to bed, the conversation out here was on my mind, and this is the song that was playing to go with it. Thought you might like to read the lyrics:
“I heard an old, old story,
How a Savior came from Glory,
How He gave His life on Calvary
To save a wretch like me
I heard about His groaning
Of His precious blood’s atoning
Then I repented of my sins
And won the victory.
O Victory, in Jesus
My Savior Forever
He sought me and bought me
With His redeeming blood
He loved me ‘ere I knew Him
And all my love is due Him
He plunged me to victory
Beneath the cleansing flood
(I won’t do the whole thing, but here is the next verse)
I heard about His healing,
Of His cleansing power revealing
How He made the lame to walk again
And caused the blind to see
And then I cried, “Dear Jesus!
Come and heal my broken spirit”
And somehow Jesus came and brought
To me the victory!
By the way, repenting of my sins… unlike in Mormonism, this does not mean overcoming my sins. It means that I see myself as unworthy, and “change my mind” (the literal translation of repent) about the idea that I can be, can do, without God. You heap your mess at the foot of the cross, and let Him make you a new creature.
God bless today!
A request to our exMormon posters:
Could you please share what you wish you would had known about Mormonism before you joined…..or if you grew-up Mormon, what were the questions that led you out of Mormonism?
I’m asking this because the video demonstrates, that the best prospects for this sect are those who are in a current state of emotional turmoil and vulnerability. The boys on the bicycles show-up tap, tap, tapping on these folks’ doors with what seems to be answers to their current situation.
What aren’t they told?
This is why Mormon John P. Dehlin’s presentation titled “Why people leave the LDS Church” is so compelling. It can be viewed at:
http://mormonstories.org/?p=50
It’s worth the forty minutes or so it takes to view.
Scripture indicates our works will be judged. Does our salvation depend in ANY way on our OWN works? No, not at all. Everything we have done that is not of God will be destroyed.
Falcon, I’ll bet I knew 1% as much about Mormonism while I was in it, as I do now.
But to answer your question, the thing that was most disturbing to learn about, for me, was the temple stuff. I had a waaaaaaaay different picture built up in my mind (from what I was taught in Primary, etc).
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/temple_ritual.htm
Ralph, do you realize that when you say that everyone will be judged for their works that you nullify Jesus’ death on the cross? Either Christ paid for sin, or He didn’t. I have gone over this before. The bible clearly teaches that Christ’s death on the cross cleanses us from all sin. What are we to do with 1 John 1:7-9 and 1 John 2:1-2 and many other verses? Jesus paid the penalty for our sins (propitiation) on the cross and is interceding for us before the Father. Those who Christ is interceding for are those who are saved by His grace. The words “whole world” in 1 John 2:2 are not to be taken as all people in the world, for we know that all people will not be saved (the idea of a general salvaion through resurrection is not true, for the bible clearly teaches that some will be damned), but means people from every tribe, tongue, people and nation, not just the Jews. If those who come to faith in Christ will still be judged and punished for their works, then the Father has either not recognized Jesus atoning sacrifice, or there are those for whom Christ died and is interceding, but the Father is ignoring Christ’s intercession. To say that Christ only paid for the sins that you cannot make up for yourself by good works is erroneous. The penalty for sin is death and punishment in Hell. Unless you atone for your sins through that means you have no other currency by which to pay your debt. Good works don’t pay for sin. Theoretically, good works only mean that you haven’t committed sin. You still have to pay for past sins, and sins you will commit in the future.
Water baptism doesn’t cleanse from sin, it is symbolic. The washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit is what cleanses from sin by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. Eating bread and drinking water doesn’t cleanse from sin either. Communion is a remembrance of the new Convenant in Christ’s blood, not a saving ordinance.
When I was involved in researching Mormonism
to better understand their particular beliefs,
which was from the late 1970’s to the early
1990’s, I communicated with Christian ministries,
read Mormon publications,and talked with Mormon
missionaries.I will say that these young men and
women are very respectful in their behavior( I
only met one which I would call arrogant). I have
to try and separate the individual from their
message, and especially how they proceed to “sell”
that message.They were trained by those who they
completely trusted.
I obtained a blooklet published by the Utah Christian Tract Society, entitled,”Enticing Words
of Man’s Wisdom” subtitle: A survey of the Mormon
Missionary Mind-Manipulating Methods.
It goes thru the LDS manual,”The Uniform System
for Teaching Families”.Seven manipulative devices
appear in loaded questions designed to maneuver the prospect,’Mr Brown’, into the response that
will lead him eventually into membership in the
LDS church”
These sales techniques are: 1.Feeding the concept
into the question.2.Mis-direction questions.
3.Attitude building. 4.Desire stimulation.
5.Testimonial reinforcement. 6.Feeling development
7. Emotive closing.
It appears the whole program is feeling based,
excessively so. This seems to me why Mormon
leaders would want missionaries to seek out those
who might be more susceptible to the sales methods
of these young men and women.
setfree,
Thanks for the link about the Mormon temple. I began reading it and will continue. I’ve also listened to two of the presentations by the former Mormon missionaries and will get to the rest. It’s one of the most compelling sagas I’ve heard. MC posted a video of these guys about a year ago and I was hoping to get more information about them. I’d like to talk to that Baptist minister and find out exactly what he said to get the one young man to begin considering the claims of Christ according to the Bible.
liv4jc,
Excellent presentation above but as always we are stuck with the realization that Christianity and Mormonism are not the same thing. Our Mormon friend doesn’t esteem the Bible in the same way we do. To a Mormon, the Bible is just an error filled jumble whose writers conspired to leave Mormonism out of the presentation.
Mike R,
Good information. I’d like to get a hold of that “Enticing Words…….”booklet.
JJM commented
Thanks for your engagement here. Please stick around.
I should have said that I am praying for the peace and well-being of you and your family, but I got pre-occupied with theology in my post (maybe I’ve been here too long).
I didn’t think that you were attracted to atheism (you wouldn’t be here if you did). However, I do think there is a difference between having faith in created things (me, my church, my faith) and having faith in the Creator.
What the ex-Mos will tell you here is that faith in Jesus is radically different from faith in the LDS Church.
Hi Falcon,
If you contact Bill/Aaron/Sharon they’ll give
you my e-mail address.I can send you a copy.
Falcon asks:
A request to our exMormon posters:
Could you please share what you wish you would had known about Mormonism before you joined…..or if you grew-up Mormon, what were the questions that led you out of Mormonism?
BIC. The always “pat” and canned answers you received when you had a question about the church or its teachings. Even at a young age I saw them a breath-takingly stupid.
That combined with, the endless half truths, twists, spins,and outright lies that makeup Gods “one true church” when I took a little time to look into them. The never ending guilt trips and goofy rules and regs. The realization that a true God wouldn’t foist this kind of bunk on his own creation. I was an oddball kid in the sense that I would spent hours in bliss contemplating a God I knew was real, but didn’t recognize at Sunday school. I had learned early on not to share this in a Mormon household. I had one brother I could confide in and at some point we came up with the “God is an Idiot theory” This consisted of a PeeChee notebook we hid in the attic and wrote down the stuff we learned at church we could not possibly swallow (most of it). We felt if we believed this stuff, we would have to believe that God was an Idiot, and we could find no evidence for that outside of LDS teachings. hahahaha sorry, I haven’t thought about that in years.
cont.
Another thing we shared was the absolute conviction that there was no man between us and our maker and we could see no reason that he would not reveal himself to us. I have no memory where those ideas came from, they were just there. We still went along because our parents and all the swell people we knew in the church couldn’t possibly be wrong.
I find the above ideas, “most likely to elicit a response” for my still-Mo friends/family when and if you can get them to switch-off their “autopilot” mode.
BTW the latest response I’ve gotten: “Who cares if it’s all made up, Don’t ya think it a nice way to find Christ?”…autopilot alert.
bfwjr,
In the two years I’ve been posting here, I’ve been drifting to a Calvinistic view regarding election. Stories like the ones you’ve shared are nudging me even closer. Andy Watson and I talk about this often as we are both in the same boat. Now in the end it doesn’t really matter because it’s God’s program any way. Andy was telling me about a Mormon who was on the way out of the program and said that even as a little kid he didn’t believe the Mormon view on the nature of God. He knew it wasn’t true. Now where does that come from?
He drifted out of the church and eventually found God and is born again to newness of life in Jesus Christ. Why do some Mormons get it regarding God almost instinctively while others cling to Smith’s fraud?
I didn’t mean to start an Armenian vs. Calvinist theology discussion here because while I find it interesting, it makes no difference what someone believes regarding this. The important thing is knowing who God is and what He did for us through Jesus Christ. The rest is just an intellectual exercise.
Hei Martin,
I didn’t think that I was getting a hard time, I was just having some fun and being sarcastic. Without the actual voice inflections, etc from speech, its a little more difficult to pick up sarcasm in writing. Besides, I knew that the comment made was not to listen to me about the LDS church, not about my life story.
Setfree,
Yes, Jesus did tell the rich, young man that keeping the commandments was not enough. However, He did not teach the rich, young man that he did not have to live the commandments any more either. He told the man that after that there was more to do, which was to sell all that he had and give it to the poor and then follow Jesus. These 2 things are in themselves works, are they not? If the rich, young man truly believed in Jesus, then this would be easy for him to do and to show faith, as faith without works is dead.
Jesus taught in Matt 7:21-23 about this very topic. He divides the world into 4 groups. The first division those who recognise Him as ‘Lord’ and those who don’t; in other words those who believe in Him and those who don’t. So faith in Jesus is first. But then He divides the group of believers again – Those who do the Father’s will and those who don’t. These are the actions/works people do because of their faith. We find more about these actions/works in Matt 25:31-46 where Jesus says that His sheep will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc. This is following the COMMANDMENT (John 13:34) Jesus left us when He was on this earth – Love one another as He loved us. If it is a commandment from Jesus then doesn’t this explicitly mean that it is a necessity to live and not a suggestion?
But as I keep saying our faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us, BUT our faith will be judged by the works that we do because of our faith. They are interdependent of each other for our salvation because a person cannot have one without the other that is why it says faith without works is dead. And a dead faith cannot save.
Ralph,
Let’s back up a little bit here so we can put this into context. You seem to want to use Christian language and terms and over-lay them on the Mormon program. Which is fine I guess, but don’t call the Mormon program “restored” Christianity. History is not on your side and you know it. You also know that the Mormon church lies when it gives its rap on the Council of Nicea in regards to the Christian church’s long held historic view of the nature of God.
But that aside, what I need to know is, is faith in the Mormon jesus enough for you to get into the Mormon Celestial kingdom and become a Mormon god and rule your own Mormon planetary system? In Mormonism you have to buy all points of the restored gospel including faith in Joseph Smith, faith in the Mormon church, faith in the current apostle and faith in the BoM and then faith in the Mormon jesus. A Mormon also has to buy their way into the Mormon temple where they perform “works” in order to qualify for the Mormon Celestial Kingdom. So I guess I’ve answered my own question. Faith in the Mormon jesus is not enough, but you do a good job Ralph of disguising all of this to sound as conventional as possible in the traditional Christian sense of things. I think you need to take a look at joining the Community of Christ. Remember Ralph, you can believe whatever you want to in Mormonism, just don’t teach it!
In Christianity, it’s faith in Jesus Ralph. That’s all!
Falcon,
I said our faith in Jesus will be judged according to the works that come from it. Without faith in Jesus one could live a perfect life but will not gain the CK. It’s that simple. Our church teaches that faith in Jesus will allow us to believe in the prophets that He has sent us (ie JS, BY, etc). Our faith also leads us to want to go to the temple to learn more about Heavenly Father and His plan for us. Our faith makes us want to give up sin and repent and then be baptised. I could go on, but the main point is it should be our faith that drives what we do. It is through our faith in Jesus that we do our works and it is through these works that our faith will be judged.
But going on your last statement “In Christianity, it’s faith in Jesus Ralph. That’s all!” I take it you believe that all the murderers and rapists and adulterers that claimed a belief in God before they started their life of debauchery are saved as well and will go to heaven. That is salvation through faith despite works. At least Martin Luther agrees with you on this point.
Ralph, it seems to me like you didn’t “hear” what I said above, so I want to try a different approach, if you’ll let me.
You said “as I keep saying our faith in Jesus Christ is what saves us”
The LDS church claims “salvation” has two parts (correct me if I’m wrong)
1- you get to be resurrected. This is a ‘universal’ thing, meaning that everyone will be resurrected. So, technically speaking, part one of LDS Salvation says Jesus made it possible for some people to be resurrected to outer darkness, right?
2- you can “overcome sin” by having faith in Jesus. So, part two of LDS Salvation says becoming perfect is possible by having enough faith.
You may not like what I wrote, but am I correct so far?
So in your last paragraph, if I can reword it, you’re saying that faith in Jesus is what enables us to do the required works . If you don’t have enough faith in Jesus, your works (or lack thereof) will show it come judgment day, and so it’s the pile of works you have to present to God that will show how much faith you had, and determine what? Which kingdom you go to, or if you go to outer darkness. Right?
Is this representative of what you are saying?
I seem to be a half-step late here, and I suspect this note will be too. But I’m going to tell you how easy it easy to see that you’re holding to the wrong gospel Ralph.
The first two people, what did they choose that SEPARATED THEM FROM GOD? They chose to know right from wrong, good from evil. The other choice was the tree of life, which would have given them what? Life with God, forever.
Their kids, what happened? One brought THE WORKS OF THEIR HANDS, THE FRUITS OF THEIR LABORS as an offering to God. God REJECTED IT! The other one brought an animal sacrifice. The animal sacrifice was the “type” given of God’s perfect Lamb that would come to save us. You know what happened when he brought, symbolically, JESUS, to offer to God? God ACCEPTED IT!
Mormonism has the whole thing convoluted, right from the beginning, literally. It has always been about Jesus and His own Righteousness, not ours.
Ralph
well said and a thoughtful honest description.
“So in your last paragraph, if I can reword it” – this really summarizes the Ev approach here. whether with scriptures, anecdotes, or honest opinions, the Ev relies on rewording to make their logic “sensible”.
this tactic is transparent to the famous “lurkers” on this board.
falcon asked
I’d like to hear from the ex-Mos too, but I’m not expecting to find a “magic bullet”.
Speaking from the perspective of a never-been-Mo (but has been exposed to it at a fairly intimate level), the main issue that will keep me out of Mormonism (or any other cultism, for that matter) is the issue of integrity verses compartmentalism.
By integrity, I mean a paradigm that robustly addresses every aspect of life, death, the universe and everything. The paradigm of the One who has created all things and sustains them by His powerful Word fits into this, as does the Christology of Jesus being the image of the invisible God (e.g. Col 1:15-23).
By compartmentalism, I mean something that works in some contexts, but not in others.
I saw the beginnings of compartmentalism in a former church of mine. We would discuss whether it was appropriate to require non-Christians to comply with certain behvioural norms (e.g. no sex before marriage). I got concerned by the kind of thinking that said the Christians should comply with a higher standard of behaviour. Since when did God’s good laws become dependant on someone’s religious orientation? If it is good for Christians, it should be good for everyone else, and vice-versa.
This, however, is a fairly benign example. What I see in Mormonism is what happens when compartmentalisation is not only left unchecked, but positively fostered. Some examples:
* the descendant of James Talmadge, when Aaron challenged him about the virgin birth responded by saying (effectively) “its too sacred, let’s not go there”
* the LDS approach to church history; “that was then, but this is now”
* the LDS attitude to the Bible; “we believe it in some contexts, but we don’t in others”
…ctd…
Falcon said: the important thing is knowing who God is and what He did for us through Jesus Christ.
Amen, and I don’t ever want to detract from that. Jesus Christ is THE message, the Good news.
Falcon asks:little kid he didn’t believe the Mormon view on the nature of God. He knew it wasn’t true. Now where does that come from? Where does art come from, music?
One of my good friends is a psychiatrist and likes to say “we are all the same but we are all different”. Bottom line,the Bible tells us God the Father is no respecter of persons, and he does not show any type of partiality or favoritism to anyone he has created.
Why do some Mormons get it regarding God almost instinctively while others cling to Smith’s fraud? Fear, comfort zone,lazy, fear, and more fear. For some the escape is nothing more than a “bad fit.”
since all sorts of nefarious “conspiracy” theories are floating around on this thread , let me offer this
JJM = Jesus Joseph Mary
and the posts are not from an actual active Mormon with an identity crisis.
the real insult here is the assumption, not that missionaries are predatory, but that “investigators” (at any stage or mentality) are somehow so incredibly vulnerable and gullible.
This more demeaning than anything else.
As for President Monson’s “optimizing productivity”, we have simply followed the instructions given on how to be “fishers of men”…but I suppose the other alternative is to be a ‘catfisher of men’ – you know, lay there and catch whatever floats in your mouth.
p.s.
just to clarify….
the “instructions” I speak of above are the Scriptures and as taught by our greatest teacher and savior Jesus Christ.
The most telling thing the LDS say is ‘our works’ ‘our works prove our faith’ It’s all about what you do to prove to Jesus that you have faith. What the Bible tells us is that it’s the Holy Spirit working thru us. God proves our faith in Him because when we have faith in him and are saved the Holy Spirit (God) lives in us and works thru us. God does the work!!!
We have faith in Jesus–>The Holy Spirit (God) lives in us–>The Holy Spirit (God) works through us–>God’s will be done. As soon as I believe and hand the wheel to God he does the driving! He is not my ‘co-pilot’ he is not my navigator…He is in control. I do nothing. He works through me. In the Mormon script God gives them the ‘treasure map’ thru the atonement and they have to faithfully follow the map to find the treasure and get to be with God…the more able they are in following the map to the letter the closer they get to God.
I hope this makes sense…my husband is watching The Maltese Falcon nearby and my thoughts are having to talk over Boggie. But the bottom line…I don’t do good works, God does HIS work thru me when I let go and let him.
…ctd…
The end result is that the Mormon can agree with you in EVERYTHING you say. Then, the very next minute, package it all up, store it away in a compartment, and get out a different package with a fundamentally different paradigm. The discussions we’ve had here about the One God/Many Gods issue illustrate this comprehensively.
I’ve actually witnessed this. When I talked to a Mormon Bishop about Jesus being the True Temple (see Rev 21:22). He agreed with me, but AFAIK, he’s still a Mormon Bishop.
We’ll also get the same response from Mormons when we talk about the character and life-story of Joseph Smith. Or the “Translation” of the BoM. Or the succession of the Mormon Prophets. etc etc etc.
No matter how well we expose the story for what it is, they will simply package it up, put it in one compartment, and live in another in their religious and public lives.
I had been at a loss to explain how the cult does this, but recently I think that Mormonism provides a ready-made mechanism in its secret/sacred paradigm, which is fostered and reinforced by the LDS Temple Rites.
Perhaps this is best illustrated by the candidate standing at a curtain over a door, shaking the hand of someone who is hidden on the other side. The message this projects is that you can live in one “room/compartment/space” while embracing something else in a totally different “room”.
So, Mormons can intellectually “jump” from one space to another, depending on whatever they choose. And there’s no need to transport the features of one “room” (e.g. the Bible) into another “room” (e.g. the teachings of Joseph Smith). At its extreme, its institutional schizophrenia.
That’s my diagnosis. I don’t know what the cure is, other than to keep proclaiming a Christ who created ALL things, who will judge ALL people (the living and the dead), for ALL they have done.
You can’t keep Christ locked away in one “room”. He demands access to your WHOLE life.
Ah Ralph,
Your key words, “claimed a belief”. Ralph, anyone can “claim” anything, it doesn’t mean they are saved. That’s what James was writing about in his epistle and classic teaching on the faith/works paradigm. I’m not going to go over the Christian faith/works position. You’ve been told it dozens of times over the past two years and you still don’t get it, or more accurately, don’t want to get it.
In Mormonism, the Celestial Kingdom cannot be gained solely on faith in the Mormon jesus. You have to do “stuff” including paying the Mormon church 10% of your gross income to buy a ticket into the temple where you do more works in the hopes of getting into the Celestial Kingdom and becoming a god.
Let’s review: the first century Church had no points of Mormonism in it. Mormonism can’t be found in the Bible or in the history of the Church. You’re in a tough spot Ralph. You’ve chosen a fraudulent gospel by which you hope to work your way into becoming a god. That’s OK, but don’t call it Christianity and it can’t lead you to eternal life. Mormonism isn’t a perfect counterfeit but it’s an effective counterfeit.
you must know that when someone is trying to “find” their life, they usually just need to have someone believe in them, someone to love them. And that is what the true gospel empowers a missionary with. The accuser can not provide this same message. The accuser can only distract from the true comforter and appeal to an “easier” route. An LDS missionary who is true to his Faith is able to believe in others and others know the truth of this…it can not be faked or grifted. This is why the LDS missionary program is one of the more sincere programs, not just for the investigator but also the missionary, because that program is sincere and based on the true Gospel.
Falcon,
You keep missing the point where I say that the “stuff we do” (as you put it) comes from our faith in Jesus. We believe in Jesus, we believe that He has asked us to do something (eg get baptised, go to the temple, pay our tithing, remain chaste, do not murder, etc) and because of our faith in Jesus we will do it. If we do not have the faith in Jesus but do it anyway, it will get us no where in terms of salvation.
Let’s look at what Rvales said -
“We have faith in Jesus–>The Holy Spirit (God) lives in us–>The Holy Spirit (God) works through us–>God’s will be done”
I can totally agree with most of this (not the Holy Spirit lives in us part). To put it in the way I am trying to say it it would be -
We have faith in Jesus–> Our faith makes us want to follow Him -> The Holy Spirit comes into our lives to guide us –> God’s will is done (whether is it repentance, baptism, chastity, tithing, temple, etc).
The fourth article of faith – First faith – This is where the Holy Ghost first touches our lives, but it is only the influence, not the gift – then the rest comes from faith; ie second repentance, third baptism, fourth gift of the Holy Ghost. Then we are taught to endure to the end through our faith.
It has nothing to do with us working by ourselves without guidance from The Holy Ghost to get to heaven, nor is it buying a ticket to the temple.
But if our faith is not judged by our works, then you are saying that the Bible is incorrect in the verses above which state quite clearly “they were judged every man according to their works.” and “he shall reward every man according to his works”
Ralph, scripturally, are those works (and not the LDS ordinances) prescriptive for salvation or descriptive of salvation?
Sub, your description of the missionary program must be that anecdotal evidence you hate so much. Try selling that to the tens of thousands of missionaries who have left your church and now say it was all a con job.
Ralph,
What is God’s will? 2 Peter 3:9 tells us that it is not God’s will for anyone to perish. In the past year my church has been studying the Old Testament and I don’t think I could count how many times the Isrealites are told to do xyz so that all will know that their Lord is the one and only God. They were a mess and God didn’t say do xyz and then I will mercifully save you. He said do xyz so that everyone else knows that I am God. As a faithful believer in Jesus Christ I don’t have to do xyz to be anymore saved but God will work those things out thru me so that others around me will know there is something different about me and I can be used by God to draw others near him. My works aren’t to save me…the works God does thru me are to save others. But if I dig in my heals and seize control from God (doing both good or bad things on my own accod) then he will accomplish his will another way. He doesn’t let go of me though. I dug in my heels for 6 years and God never once left me. He accomplished his goals without my cooperation and I know that I was truly saved 16 years ago regardless of my prodigal ways because nothing I could do or tried to do was enough to steal me away from God (John 10:28) I was a mess but I was God’s mess and he was working everything out in me despite my obstinance. I don’t have to live in fear of not doing enough. I’ve embraced that I’ll NEVER do enough. I’ll NEVER do all that I could do. But I am faithful that God meant it when he said I couldn’t but that He did so I have no desire to prove him wrong by any ‘righteousness checklist’
Falcon
Don’t ever get discouraged. Your efforts on this board are nothing short of heroic. I’m amazed you have such a grasp on Mormonism from such a distance. You haven’t seen up close the workings of the cult. The constant reinforcement a member receives on a daily basis. Never underestimate the power of peer pressure to mold and shape these guys and their behaviors. Your dealing with the internet Danites Sub, Ralph etc., not the run of the mill Mo’s. You’ve offered them the truth and they reject it. The effect you have had on others you may never know in this life. I can promise you your efforts are not in vain. Redemption and reclamation of souls in a slow person by person process. Your battling the spiritual equivalent of the ebola virus… Mormonism. God Bless
(Ditto for all my Christian Brothers)
lather
“Im not going to go over the Christian faith/works position.” …because you either can not or dare not.
this type of “grasp” on the scriptures and Mormonism is like handful of water that one keeps squeezing…its just plain leaky and after a time all that is left is a fist.
The lurker easily sees the truth in the spirit of those obsessed with destruction.
Rinse
constant insistence that faith without works is live is a certain path to a bad judgement day. Yes, you will at least not be turned away because you do know Jesus, but you will surely be judged.
repeat
we are not God’s puppets, we have His glorious gift of free agency. Those that buy into the bigotry and exclusivity of predestinaton are foolish…..there is a Book of Life, and names written into it and erased from it….how can this be with a set in stone God? it simply can not, this shows that God has given us a role in our own salvation. Free agency is the only thing that seprates an individual from the robot factory of the modern evangelical.
I think I’m to the place where I’m going to quit reading and responding to Sub. Not that you’ll mind, I’m sure, right genius?
But Ralph,
Dang it Ralph,
If you would bother to take your “I know this church is true” glasses off, you may be able to see the parts of the Bible that they are obscuring from your vision.
Martin,
Excellent conclusion, and I wish there were a cure, a solution as well. But if there were, it would be us doing it, not Jesus. So… I will take heart that the ones not posting are the ones He’s bringing in.
The other thing I enjoy out here is listening to my fellow Christians talk… it’s so nice to see that though we didn’t grow up together, though we don’t go to the same church buildings, we believe the same way because we read the Bible. It has taken me quite a while to shed Mormonism and be free of it when reading. But praise be to God it’s almost gone!
This has been my favorite post ever, because of meeting JJM, and seeing first hand that someone out there is listening.
God bless!
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18 Sub and Ralph I wish you could grasp the true work done on the cross.
Martin said
“You can’t keep Christ locked away in one “room”. He demands access to your WHOLE life.”
What irony! If Martin had any clue about the temple was all about he would realize that everything there is teaching us exactly the doctrine he is trying to tell us we can’t see! And besides, the EV’s here have made it abundantly clear that, according to Christian doctrine, none of us have the capability to provide the access you are demanding.
It is the temple, not exegesis, that shows us the hope of redemption through Christ.
As far as agreeing with everything an Ev says to us, I will say that this is done for two reasons.
1. Part truth: If Martin says the true temple is Christ, we would agree. Which is precisely why Temples are in existence. The true temple has commanded these structures to be built. And who are we to instruct the True Temple?
2. Sphere of responsibility: this is something that will be difficult for EV’s to understand because they have assumed the role of protector, defender and proclaimer of all truth. Therefore nothing is off limits. LDS understand that the Holy Ghost is responsible to “teach all things” not us. We have been commanded to testify and warn the people; very difficult not to overstep those bounds. But when we do, the Spirit withdraws and we are left to teach in the same way the EV’s do (through analysis and debate).
The bottom line is the the seed of Adam is blinded by the burden of sin (a favorite topic of the EV’s). Opposition and sorrow, almost universally, causes the children of God to ask the most fundamental questions. Questions that only the true gospel can answer: Where did I come from, why am I here, and where am I going. I realize this is going to be a sensitive topic for the EV’s because they do not have the answers. I applaud Monson for having the discernment to instruct missionaries on how to best approach the most daunting of tasks. I also want to applaud all those who elect to humble themselves and teach the gospel by the Spirit and refuse to be tempted by intellectual debate.
Sub, you asked this question 3 days ago:
“that being said…how does he average Ev poster here recognize their own missionary opportunities?”
What do you think MRM and the ministry Bill McKeever has set up is about? What do you think Aaron and Sharon are doing when they post articles? What do you think the Christians who post here are doing? Did we not give the gospel to J.J.M? How about Ralph? In the past I have given you the gospel in a comapassionate manner, and I still proclaim the truth to you(even though we disagree).
Sub, I have never heard you speak a kind word to anyone that disagreed with you. I have never seen your write that you were praying for one of us, or seen you proclaim the smithian gospel in love. It has always been in the form of an attack.
You constantly appeal to the unseen lurker who supposedly can see through our evil message bent on the destruction of others. I think the hatred you spew is much more indicative of one who is bent on the destruction of others. Ralph does not conduct himself that way. Are you sure that they don’t see the utter hatred and contempt that you have for others, even your supposed sister J.J.M?
I can imagine the apostle Paul was much like you, breathing threats of murder upon the saints. I also pray that one day, Like Paul (he’s my hero y’know) you will speak these words, “And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 1:12-14)
Still praying for you, Sub, and I hope my next post will enlighten you as well as the “lurker”
Sub, you mock the God of the bible as being bigoted for His doctrine of predestination, not realizing that He owes you nothing, but what you deserve for your sin and rebellion. It is His right to select some out of the masses of humanity to glorify Himself by His mercy and His grace. He does not need to give you a “choice” to be fair, because your choice has already been determined by your nature. Hating God is your decision. God’s grace makes you want to choose Him, despite your nature.
My God’s laws and decrees are written in stone, and I am thankful for that. I will not wake up tomorrow and find the words of the bible (KJV if you like) changed. I will not go to church on Sunday and hear a different salvation message than the one I heard last week or eight years ago. The message that I preach is the same that was preached by men like William Tyndale, John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, and other men who gave their lives, being martyred, for ripping the bible out of the hands of the Roman Catholic Church to reveal its message of salvation by grace through faith to all those who repent of their sins and place their faith in the resurrected Jesus Christ, who bore God’s wrath that I deserved on the cross. This message is over 500 years old and has not changed since the bible was written thousands of years ago.
I can read letters from Athenagoras to Marcus Aurelius Antonius ca. 165 AD defending Christians being martyred for proclaiming the same God that I proclaim. I can read Irenaeus who wrote against the same heresies your church now proclaims in the mid second century.
You proclaim a god whose strong point is his ability to change? Why would I want your god? The “restored” gospel and the god who authored it are less than 200 years old, yet he is not the same as he was in 1830 when JS first revealed him. His doctrines and ordinances are not the same today as they were in the 1830’s, 1880’s, 1950’s, 197o’s, or 1990’s. I can’t trust him.
Poor DOTF, you finally admitted it. Thank you for your honesty. It’s about time a smithian did that. The bible, and reading it according to how the author intended it to be interpreted, is a foolish exercise. If studied at all, it is meant to be interpreted by asking oneself, “What does this passage mean to me?”, without regard to what it actually says and means. Exegesis based upon rationale is ridiculous.
In fact, the bible is ridiculous. We actually learn about god by going through the temple, a system that was created by man according to his desire to wrest godhood from God, and has changed so many times since its inception that nobody actually knows its original form. And since it is so “sacred” we cannot even talk about it amongst each other, we cannot admit that it has changed since my grandparents, parents, and I went through it over the decades. This explains why every mo has a different view of their gospel. To each his own according to what he has learned about god in the temple. Ah, the glorious changing mormon god. Tomorrow may reveal that you are to pay for indulgences for your departed loved ones and others instead of just baptizing them by proxy. Maybe you will learn that coffee is ok to drink.
Like I said above, my God is forever unchanging. He is a God that I can place my faith and trust in.
Sub
It appears you are up against the doctrine of predestination, a modern-day Rameumptom if you will. The is no argument against this manifestation of pride. Imagine the exercise in psychosis this kind of god must be…creating (or allowing to be created) separate sinful beings; one destined for damnation the other for salvation.
If it makes you feel better, I guarantee the majority of EV’s here would argue with Liv and predestination. Unfortunately, their objective is to tear down the Church and not destroy false doctrine.
It is these kind of sweeping statements that have dominated smith’s cult for the past 180 years…
‘I guarantee the majority of the EV’s believe…’ ‘They are ALL wrong’, They are all an ‘abomination’, they are all ‘corrupt’.
But what is TAUGHT (& has been taught – depends on what ‘prophet’ you want to believe) in smith’s cult is doctrines that ADAM is God, that joe smith is a god, that the husband is a god to his wife, etc. That grandfather god put god Adam in the garden of eden, etc. ad nauseum. It is false doctrine and smith’s cult is FULL OF IT.
All Polytheistic nonsense. I see comments like: “we are left to teach in the same way the EV’s do (through analysis and debate).”
That is EXACTLY what happened with Adam-God, Polygamy, Priesthood to the Blacks, the Mary Heresy, and a host of others. Your ‘why,where’ questions brought all of these heresies on by men who wouldn’t know the Holy Ghost from an appearance by Satan as an angel of light, because they reject the Bible as untrustworthy and believe in peep stones and hat tricks.
We do know the answers to questions about why we are here. Jesus taught us everything we need to know. I find one of the best paraphrases in the Westminster Shorter Catechism:
Q. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.
Simple. Like the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You don’t have to be a god to understand that.
JJM, if you’re still around– If it ever becomes the case that you want to chat off Mormon Coffee, and you care to do so with me, here’s my email:
setfreebyJC@live.com
To put things in context:
“there is a Book of Life, and names written into it and erased from it….how can this be with a set in stone God? it simply can not…”
NOT according to smith’s cult (smith, mcconkie, JFsmith, marion Romney & a host of others):
“We are told that we should seek in this life to have our calling and election made sure. We can have the DAY OF JUDGEMENT ADVANCED, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured PRIOR to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with the ‘Father in his throne’.”
There is a constant repetition by the LDS posters on this board that we wish to destroy the church. That is not my goal nor do I think it is necessary. My god uses weakness to bring about his glory. The weakness of Mormonism is it’s heretical, unbiblical, ever-changing message via Mormon prophets. This is also potentially its greatest strength. A revelation from God to Tom Monson could change everything overnight.
My prayer is Tyndale’s prayer “Open The king of Englands eyes” maybe someday he will open Thomas Monson’s eyes.
bfwjr,
Thanks for the shout out. I appreciate it! It’s true, I pretty much ignore the Mormon posters except for Ralph who has a gentle and kind spirit. Actually I happened, by total “accident”, to be right in the heart of about 100% Mormonland a few weeks back. There is no doubt that God arranged it. I was on a super secret stealth assignment for the Lord. I ran into a lot of very nice Mormons and was very appreciative of their hospitality.
Ralph,
I dialed in Andy Watson today on my way back from one of my retirement gigs and he explained a few things to me about Mormon “salvation”. First of all Andy says when Mormons talk about salvation they are really referring to a kind of universal salvation that results in the resurrection of all mankind. In Mormon lore, there is no such thing as original sin, hence no hell. The second part of the Mormon program is exaltation to godhood. That’s where all the works come in.
So this exaltation is where the five points of the Mormon testimony plus all of the works appear, including paying a share of income to buy entry into the temple (to do more works) to become a god.
So when a Christian talks about salvation we are talking about obtaining the gift of eternal life through faith/acceptance of Jesus’ finished work on the Cross.
I dialed in one of the websites setfree had suggested. It was the testimonies of the former Mormon missionaries who are now born again to salvation through Jesus. One of the missionaries talked about how at the last meeting before heading home from his mission he was given the opportunity to share his testimony. He got up and testified that Jesus was the totality of the Gospel message. Well, while many of the other missionaries were crying as he testified to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, the leader had a cow. He had one of the assistants get up and talk about how Jesus was not enough. That one had to believe in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church and the current prophet.
Cont.
Well the rest of the story is that the Bishop or whoever, called this missionary, who found salvation through faith in Jesus into his office, questioned him, and had him turn over his temple recommend…..which he did gladly.
Jesus is enough because there is no exaltation to godhood. There is One, everlasting, eternal, never-changing God. Faith in Jesus’ finished work on the cross satisfies God’s requirement of sinless perfection to enter his presence. The stumbling block of Mormonism separates the Mormon from God. The Mormon program requires that the follower of Smith confess belief in Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, and the current prophet. The Mormon must then fork over 10% of their gross income to get into the temple where more works are done. In the end, even all of this may not be enough. Mormons have no assurance that all of their striving will get them their godhood and planetary system.
This all of course was left out of the Bible by a grand conspiracy.
setfree
to stop reading my posts is certainly your choice isn’t it?
liv4jc
still didn’t answer my question from 3 days ago. unless your answer was that you google for opportunities….i mean how do you recognize a person or opportunity to be a missionary?
falcon
personally I have always known that you don’t ever pay much attention to Mormon posts.
but just in case
lather, rinse, and repeat
rvales,
Thank you for your comments, they were truly enlightening.
I notice the language of the Corinthian quote, the word of the cross… Paul has that just right, we don’t worship it, we understand the sacrifice of Jesus and we take up our own.
I truly love the analogy of that, and your words that we cannot do all of it like HE did:
“He accomplished his goals without my cooperation and I know that I was truly saved 16 years ago regardless of my prodigal ways because nothing I could do or tried to do was enough to steal me away from God (John 10:28) I was a mess but I was God’s mess and he was working everything out in me despite my obstinance. I don’t have to live in fear of not doing enough. I’ve embraced that I’ll NEVER do enough. I’ll NEVER do all that I could do…”
are an echo of my own struggles. Jesus my Captian, my King, and my Saviour has been there and WILL always be there. All He requires is belief in HIM. All I had to do was call on Him & BELIEVE in HIM. He does the rest, and gives us the JOY to help others through the power of HIS Spirit, which is alive today and works tirelessly to reveal all we need to know to help us through our struggles.
In the true spirit of Christian Brotherhood, thanks, and God Bless you & your family at this most beautiful time of year.
P.S. Love Bogart, have ALL his movies, even the early ones…
(T)emples necessary.
(R)estored church doctrine.
(A)dam-god & polytheist doctrines.
(N)ot enough to believe in Jesus.
(S)alvation through works doctrine.
(P)olygamy & eternal marriage.
(A)postasy of Christ’s church.
(R)acist doctrines.
(E)xalted-man God still progressing doctrine.
(N)eed for a priesthood.
(T)he book of mormon needed.
subgenius asked
(BTW, though it might be tiresome, I’ll stick to the practise of trying to answer a Mormon directly when they ask a direct question).
If you mean “mission” in the general sense that the Christian is to “incarnate” the Gospel in his or her ordinary life, then there is no need for formal “recognition”. Basically, we have Jesus’ standing orders, which are well-founded in the ancient Israelite tradition of being witnesses of God. Every Christian is on a “mission” all of the time.
If you mean “mission” in a specialist sense (as in, go and do church work in Matabililand, or wherever), then there has to be a convergence of several factors. I suggest the following;
1 The sense by the local church leadership that this is the Holy Ghost’s initiative on a certain person’s life
2 That the person being called is equipped in terms of being able to understand and articulate the gospel (usually, this requires theological training)
3 That the person being called is equipped in terms of life-skills, job-skills, character and habit(usually, this requires more life-experience than most 18-20 year olds have)
A couple of years ago some close friends of mine, who are on a “special” mission in central asia, polled their Christian freinds about whether to move out of their country’s capital into one of the regional cities. I wrote back to say that if anyone could do it, they could, primarily because they had the right attitude. At the time, I didn’t need to consider points 1 and 2 above because, in their case, they had already been demonstrated to be more than competent.
Earlier on this post I said that Baptism into the LDS church was a must for “salvation”, according to Mormonism.
One of our Mormon posters said I was being misleading or something similar.
Here is a direct quote:
“We must be baptized to become members of the restored Church—The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—and to eventually enter the kingdom of heaven. This ordinance is a law of God and must be performed by His authority. A bishop or mission president must give a priesthood holder permission to perform a baptism or confirmation”
that is under the “Baptism and Confirmation” subheading of “The Commandments”, which commandments are part of the “fulness” of the “restored gospel”
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
“So this exaltation is where the five points of the Mormon testimony plus all of the works appear, including paying a share of income to buy entry into the temple (to do more works) to become a god.”
LOL, it’s tough being in school to become a God. Whew. Tithing, Keeping all the Commandments, Loving all our enemies, working harder each and every day to make ourselves even more better. Hmmm, hope I’m dong it right. It would be so much easier to just be a EVANGELICAL.