Mormon Times columnist McKay Coppins recently wrote about a bit of misadventure endured by LDS missionaries as they headed off to begin their missions. Before they even got beyond the airport they had suffered two incidents of rudeness directed at them because of their identifying missionary badges. To Mr. Coppins’ credit, he wrote,
“I am not relating these stories in an effort to paint the LDS Church or its missionaries as poor, persecuted Saints in an increasingly cruel world. On the contrary, I have consistently used this column to condemn the persecution complex so many of our members seem to have.”
Instead, Mr. Coppins suggested that it might be helpful if Latter-day Saints sought to understand the attitudes that seem to drive negativity directed toward Mormons. Therefore, he asked (as he titled his column), “Why do they hate us?”
The following week Mr. Coppins’ column related some of the responses he received, including such things as:
- a perceived lack of respect from LDS missionaries as they seek contacts;
- a judgmental attitude from Latter-day Saints toward those who have prayed but not received a confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true; and
- fear from seeing Mormonism as a threat to people’s cherished orthodox beliefs
While interesting, for the folks here at Mormon Coffee I think Mr. Coppins’ question, “Why do they hate us?” is the wrong question to ask. As far as I know, nobody here hates Mormons. A better question for Mr. Coppins to ask here (and perhaps elsewhere as well) might be, “Why do they challenge us?”
So I’m asking you, friends in the Mormon Coffee community: Why do you challenge Mormons and their belief system?
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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It all started for me years ago with a knock on
my door. Opening the door I found two well dress-
ed people who offered me a magazine that would
explain the problems in the world, and that soon
Jehovah God would intervene.These were Jehovah’s
Witnesses.Their claims of being the only true
religious organization that God approves of and
that only their organization speaks for God, His
prophet, caused me to see Matt.7:15 and 24:24,25
come alive before me.
Since the price for following a false prophet is
so high, I felt a desire to try and warn them
about their prophet.Not to long after this I
discovered that the claims of the Mormon Church
were similar.Since then I’ve had a concern for
these sincere precious people who’ve been misled
into following false prophets/apostles.
Sharon,
I see an inherent problem surrounding reason #2. Many people around the world have taken the Moroni challenge and came out with either no answer or that the Mormon church is untrue. If the reason why these people did not embrace Mormonism is not the fault of the BoM or the church, then it must be something with the person or the prayer. Mormons having a negative attitude towards those who have prayed about the BoM, but did not join their church, is understandable – and dare I say logical. If the Mormon testimony is heavily dependent on a “spiritual” confirmation that their faith is true, then what does one make of others who have encountered Mormonism yet still have the same level of testimony for their own religion?
It has been my experience that many Mormons have a hard time comprehending or accepting that others have had “genuine” encounters with the Holy Ghost that validate their non-Mormon religion. And it does come off as arrogant when someone challenges that Holy Ghost testimony but asserts his own.
In the face of this, one must ascend to the fact that God either wills/allows people to be seriously mislead (even so far as to attack his church; many of the people who “challenge” Mormonism are those who have had encounters with it). Many Mormons are not inclined to go down this route as they see god as a loving father, and all humans are his children. Thus, a loving father would not do that. I am awaiting a “free agency” reply to this.
BTW – What do Mormon missionaries say when they encounter Mormons of a different stripe? I would love to see an exchange where some LDS Mormons were on the receiving end of “yeah, we believe that too”.
For me, the reason why I “challenge” Mormons is
Biblical and historical. I do not see a total apostasy as ever taking place. I believe that Christ’s bride has been around since Pentecost.
The safeguarding of the saints is a triune and benevolent act . . . “and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”.
I see this great chasm between Mormons and I with them standing on one side calling me while I’m on the other calling them.
That said, I feel some Mormons are quick to judge us ex’s because they believe there is something wrong with us. We failed to keep praying, reading the BOM, whatever. So somehow, the things we say don’t amount to much because WE fell into transgression. It was our fault we lost faith, not the Churches or that there is something dreadfully wrong with it.
What is amazing to me how people can read or study the same material and come up with totally different points of view. I feel I use common sense. I don’t know what others circumstances are, but I had no ‘family’ in the Church, I had no ties to it except myself. Did that make it easier to leave? I think so. I think family is the number one reason why many, many Mormons stay in that Church to their own damnation.
So, do I think it is easier for some, but not others to look at exactly what the prophets of Mormonism taught objectively? I do. I know some don’t believe we do, as evidenced by this quote from another thread:
“You seem to be of the camp that says “I will embrace any supposed evidence that refutes the claims of the BOM, even if those claims contradict each other.” One must make up his mind.”
But that is not quite true. I don’t ascribe to every theory, every attack upon the Mormons. What I do is look at both sides and weigh the evidence. When post I generally quote from Mormon sources and let the reader make up their minds, but that is not always relevant, and contradictions happen. Sometimes what is a contradiction to one is not a contradiction to another. What makes this bad for Mormons is the actions of their leaders to cover up and hide many contradictions in their doctrine and scriptures.
But Mormons see Smith though the eyes of faith, that he is what he said he is. I do not anymore. Why? Because of what I have read and learned and having the courage to accept the truth of it.
How is that a bad thing? Did I somehow lose my faith thorough intellectualism? I don’t think so. I just stopped giving Joseph Smith and Brigham Young the benefit of the doubt. I looked at them for what they really were without the blinders of faith. And who led me to do that. They did, by how they lived and what they said. Did I question myself? Yes I did. Was there an easy way out for me? No. It took 25 years to find my faith in God again.
And when I re-read the Bible after years of atheism I compared the lives of Joseph & Brigham to the life of Jesus & His Apostles. There just is no comparison. John, Paul, Peter, James, and those early Apostles and what they wrote and how they lived were just so different than Joseph and Brigham.
Mormons should ask themselves like so many have, where did all the hate rhetoric (of Young & others) come from? Come on. Revenge? Blood Atonement? What is that all about? Where did Adam-god come from? How is it acceptable to practice a restored principle like polygamy and lie about it? Would Jesus really have done that? Would Jesus really have made the same statements that Brigham made over the pulpit about how it is LOVE to cut a man’s throat because some sins are not covered by the Atonement? Justifying those statements in the light of the OT or other Biblical History is missing the whole point of who Jesus was and why he came to save us.
Why did the Authorities of the Church buy up Mark Hoffman’s documents and suppress them? Even the Tanners knew they were fakes, but Hinckley did not. How about this one prophecy of Joseph Smith that I cannot reconcile as hard as I might try to believe that he was a true prophet:
“And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri therefore I declare unto you the warning which the Lord has commanded to declare unto this generation, remembering that the eyes of my Maker are upon me, and that to him I am accountable for every word I say, wishing nothing worse to my fellow-men than their eternal salvation; therefore, “Fear God, and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.” Repent ye, repent ye, and embrace the everlasting covenant and flee to Zion, before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I have spoken , are fulfilled. (History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 315-316).
Can Mormons look at that prophecy with open eyes and see that it did not come to pass? Have they read the journal entries of faithful Mormons who believed that Jesus would come in 1890 as predicted by Joseph? Are they cutting him slack because they have faith in him? What should I do, as an former Mormon who cannot reconcile Joseph’s actions with what he preached? Why do they continue to believe the ‘explanations’ of apologists as to why so many things really did not happen or that those things weren’t exactly what was said?
Honestly, – have they read the REAL history of their church as it really happened?
Have they looked into why so much of it was edited so carefully? What is so complicated about believing in just Jesus and his saving power in our lives? Have they looked at the changes made in the D&C? How can they justify those in the light of Joseph’s statement that there never was any error in the revelations he received? To be coherent, to be consistent, is it God’s way to have his prophets correct the revelations He gave to them just a few years later? Why would Joseph insert words and change revelations years after they were given? Would not God know? Would not God have foreknowledge and if He does, why would he have his prophet lie about polygamy, and so many other things? When is it ever justified for a prophet to lie? How do the means justify the ends when it is deception that brings about those ends?
Why would he retract Polygamy, even if the Saints faced the US Government? Who is more powerful? Why did Wilford Woodruff cave, when he claimed to have a revelation NOT to abandon polygamy months before he actually did abandon it under pressure from the US Government? Why would Mormon leaders say that Smith’s 1826 arrest would be devastating if it were true, and then when proven it was blow it off?
Why would Spencer Kimball change the doctrine of not having blacks hold the priesthood when Brigham Young said that it would not happen until every worthy white person was born first? Why did the First Presidency continue to sanction plural marriages after the Manifesto & apostles like John W. Taylor lose their faith over it? If they were inspired by a God who predicted Cyrus 150 years before he was born, how could these prophets not know ahead of time the circumstances that would place the church in such dire circumstances in the 1880’s? Why did He not just have the Church move to Mexico In the first place?
These are questions that a mind grounded in reality asks. Yes, there are questions I have about the OT.
But I focus on Jesus and the NT. That gives me my faith and I know, I know He is my Redeemer and by His Grace I am saved. Not after all I can do, but in spite of all I can do, because I can NEVER do it all. He made it simple: believe in Him and you are saved. For what purpose is it so complicated as Mormons make it to be? With belief in Him and faith, the works come. The love comes.
This why I challange Mormonism. Don’t doubt that I will continue to fight against it, for I feel it is an invention of a man, an evil man who reaped what he had sown, and died as he lived: in violence. And what is sad, what is tragic in my mind, is Joseph’s legacy that was carried out in Utah: revenge and hatred and blood oaths & blood atonement. Why was Joseph ordained a KING? What were his motivations for doing so?
So, I will continue to challenge Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and those that cover up, deny and hide their true history and teachings. They are false, and I hope Mormons understand why I think so.
Grindael,
Like I said on another thread, your difficulties with the LDS church are not unlike the difficulties many atheists have with God in general and with Christianity specifically. Plenty of people have left Christianity for the atheist camp for similar reasons.
The very same types of arguments against the BOM that appeal to reason, logic, and science have been formed against the Bible and Christianity. I am sure you understand both sides of that. The reality is that an atheist and a Christian can intellectually understand the same data, yet come away with different conclusions. That is because the Christian has the benefit of an additional source of truth that results from humility and that fits the pieces together in a manner not possible from the atheist’s viewpoint.
Your list of issues with the LDS church is not all that unique or difficult to understand.
You ask how a Mormon can know all of those things that are so troubling for you and that led you out of the church. I too have read and studied everything you have studied in church history. I am just as familiar with the arguments against the BOM and the BOA. And I too have found it curious that people can be presented with the very same information, yet come to such opposite conclusions.
For me, the most fundamental truth about the restoration that is the glue for it all is the Book of Mormon. I know as surely as I know anything that it is what it claims to be. My knowledge of that comes from God. It is absolutely undeniable to me.
Once a mind and soul has been enlightened with that spirit and knowledge, the pieces of the puzzle come together in a way that the cynic and doubter cannot understand. Almost everything I have studied- historical issues, archeology, linguistics, etc.- has confirmed my testimony of the book. My faith in it is enormously more firm after studying those issues.
continued…
Now I know you were once LDS and will claim the benefit of the same spiritual experiences favorable to the BOM in your past. But the truth is that once that spirit is gone and that knowledge set aside, the benefit is no longer there. In fact, the BOM claims that once a person betrays that source of light, their state is worse than if they had never felt or received that light. I do not mean that in a judgmental way- I am saying that a person’s ability to appropriately process information as a result of bias is affected.
Don’t get me wrong- I do not claim to be free from bias- we all have one. You are biased against the church and BOM, and I am sure I am biased toward those things. My point is that I believe the Holy Ghost influences us in many ways, one of which just might be making up for our natural biases.
My own brother went through an experience similar to yours. He served a faithful mission, got married in the temple, and did those normal things. In his late 20s, he read material very unfavorable to the BOM and Joseph Smith and ended up leaving the church and becoming an atheist. After years away, he has returned to fully believe in the restoration. He has helped me understand a great deal about faith, testimony, personal apostasy and bias. His is a very valuable and powerful testimony as a result of his experiences through those years.
Anyway, I wanted to convey to you that I don’t judge you or think you are less of a person as a result of your beliefs and decisions. I empathize with you. But there is a way that it all fits together. And it doesn’t require a person to turn off his brain. I believe that, in the end, the opposite is true.
I thought this answer published was insightful –
This, I believe is similar in all religions (including the LDS church), if something does not fit your faith you ‘hate’ it.
But that is one thing many on this site have stated – you ‘hate’ the LDS ideology/church/religious system/whatever you want to call it because it goes against your ideology, thus all who are members are going to hell. But then the reason you do this here on this site is because you ‘love’ the LDS people and are worried/concerned for their eternal future. So its ‘hate the sin not the sinner’ sort of thing.
But of course, with a ‘persecution complex’ a person you aretalking to will blanket it as you ‘hate’ them because you are personally attacking them. And the reason you are personally attacking them is because religion is a personal matter.
So the person who wrote the original article probably should have called it “Why do they hate the LDS church?” rather than “Why do they hate us?”
OJ,
Thanks for the kind words. I mean it. Though I may at times bite a little in some of my responses, that comes from dogged and trite (always in my opinion) responses by Mormons to the presentation of evidence showing the disharmony of Mormonisn with true Christianity.
For example one poster calling Adam-god a doctrine one of only ‘snippets’ and it being misquoted and misrepresented. This is so far from the truth, and that line of thought was propagated by such as Penrose – who made totally misleading and false statements in defense of Brigham Young about it, which has spawned a whole attitude of belief in the Church that he never really taught it or that what we present is a ‘theory’ and so they call it the adam-god theory and that ‘theory’ was never taught by Young.
This was the 1980’s response to it by Spencer Kimball, and it is a totally false and circular argument that carries no weight whatsoever. The private (but made public) letter by Bruce McConkie to Eugene England shows the falsehood of Kimball’s statements, but even that letter is filled with circular logic. Many Mormon Scholars have seen the dilemma of it and have written the truth regarding it. Some have left, & some have stayed in the Church. I think the ones that stay do so out of motives having nothing to do with a testimony. They are afraid to because of family, position and stay and take their chances.
The Book of Mormon does not (on the surface) teach anything bad. I don’t think reading it will make people evil. (It has a lot of passages lifted from the Bible in it) What it is though, is a device invented by Joseph to get people to place their faith in him, not GOD. But we have an obligation to investigate how it came about, and if you examine the life of Joseph it becomes obvious it was produced by a person whose whole life was rife with deception, many passages were changed to reflect later changed church doctrine.
I don’t doubt that David Koresh’s followers thought the same thing about his ‘revelations’ like his treatise on the seven seals, but it took his actions to show who he really was. The same is true for Joseph, and Brigham: the root of the Mormon Tree. Koresh went down the same road as Smith and Young, corrupted by power & then when confronted by their actions turned to violence. In both cases (Smith & Koresh) they died in a bad way, unjustly (to some) as many of both their followers did – but their actions led them to that point. Smith with his legion and delusions of grandeur, & Koresh with his compound, assault rifles & delusions of grandeur. Young escaped, by isolating himself (as Koresh did for a time) but the rhetoric of violence stayed (and was practiced) until ultimately (for the Mormons) sane men came to the conclusion that they could not fight against the Government and ejected the unlawful teachings that put them at odds with it.
What you don’t know is that today I enjoy the Spirit of God in my life. I turned it over to Jesus. That is why I focus on HIM, because His works and teachings and his LIFE, stand up to the test and prove HIM for what he was: the Son of God. HE said, the gates of hell would NEVER PREVAIL against his Church, (though there may have been times of trouble within it) and with the advent of the Printing of the Bible given to the masses it was then able to be studied and believed in on an individual basis, giving the reader DIRECT access to God as it was meant to from the beginning.
Mormon leaders have taught that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon: I believe it was a ‘nesting place’ or quay for the beginning years of Christianity & God foreknew and worked within that framework to keep his word safe for future generations.
The Mormon paranoia about ‘creeds’ was another example of Joseph to give him reason for his ‘angelic restoration’ of ‘keys of the priesthood’ so that he could claim to be ‘unchallanged’ on the question of authority. The events of that ‘restoration of priesthood’ were later added to a revelation never originally mentioning it. That is deception. The same thing is true about the first vision. (Fabricated later & claimed as an earlier event). That is what drove David Whitmer and many others out of the church, (the changing & publishing of ‘revelations’ that told Joseph was only given one gift, to translate the BOM & others) though Whitmer still believed in the Book of Mormon as you do.
What Christians believe (though not all) is that creeds are not binding, only definitions of doctrine. They are only as binding as the individual makes them on themselves. If the great apostasy did not happen, there is no need for the BOM & the Mormon Church as ‘the ONLY true Church on the face of the earth”.
There is no need for the revelations of Joseph to build himself up as KING on earth and a god to his people. Such notions are out of place in Christian thought, evidenced by the Saviour himself, who always took the road of humility and peace and forgiveness no matter how badly persecuted.
. They tried to proclaim Him a KING on earth, and he rejected the trappings of violence in all it’s forms. The same is true of HIS apostles, who always taught peace and that their KING was not a man, but God Himself, and that no one has the right to be His Proxy on earth in that respect. We have Jesus words that Peter & the apostles would be judges in the end, but Jesus did not extend that promise to any others and ONLY IN THEIR MINDS do false prophets and teachers put that upon themselves, and ultimately like with Joseph & Koresh it leads to self-aggrandizement and in many cases escalates to violence and bloodshed.
The Josephites learned this lesson, and rejected Young and many of Smith’s teachings that led to his death. The pieces do not ‘fit’. Not in the light of Jesus life and teachings. Just as the early Catholic Church sanctioned the crusades and torture in the name of God did not fit. Do those actions take away from Jesus teachings? Not in the least. Do they nullify his sacrifice for us? No. We can judge and see that for ourselves. Are those mistakes by men a reason for me to believe in Smith as a ‘mediator’. No. To believe in a works based system? No. Belief in unbiblical dogma? No. Pure unadulterated Christianity is simple. Belief in Jesus and salvation for those that do. Was family a part of your brother’s return to the Church? How important a part did it play? These are only questions, I have nothing but those, and do not doubt his or your sincerity.
How can wolves in sheeps clothing be identified? The wolves are the ones eating the sheep. LDS missionaries eat sheep. We must approach them to stop them from feeding on our fold.
Most people don’t know this, but there was actually a time when I thought that those who criticized Mormonism were wrong. I had talked with a co-worker for weeks and came to the conclusion that he was just as Christian as I am.
It wasn’t until I decided to do my own research through primary documentation that lead me to understand that I was wrong. Once I began to truly understand Mormonism, again, through their own literature, I realized that Mormons have been deceived by a false Christianity. I don’t want to see nice people go to hell so I reach out to them in an attempt to get them to come to the real Jesus Christ for immediate forgiveness of sin. My motivation is love.
Like JO, I also have to admit that it is not so much an intellectual testimony that brought me into the Church but definitely the Holy Ghost that provided to me a witness of truth of all that I heard, studied, and prayed about. I joined at a very early age, and though my testimony was limited by confusion and lack of knowledge, the years that have gone by have been a blessing as I studied both sides of the divide between our Christian friends and the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I must admit that Faith, study and prayer have been a huge blessing in coming to the knowledge of truth and light. I can see both sides of the debate, and completely understand how one can loose convictions and testimony in the LDS Church when presented with the materials that is so prevalent in articulating the supposed errors, mistakes, and apparent false beliefs of our Religion. I have pretty much resolved within my self the difficulties some have with many of the Doctrines or theories that have not yet been fully explained or revealed. My Faith and testimony have overshadowed any doubts I may have had in the past. I am willing to admit that there were times I might have doubted, but I never doubted that I received revelation and cannot deny I ever received it.
Respectfully, Janet.
What I mentioned above are not ‘supposed’ errors, mistakes and ‘apparent’ false beliefs. They ARE errors & mistakes and false beliefs.
Blood Atonement. Proven Doctrine.
adam-god. Proven Doctrine.
Polygamy. Proven Doctrine.
Denial of the Priesthood to Blacks. Proven Doctrine.
Blood & Revenge Oaths. Proven Doctrine.
Racism. Proven in the Church.
Changing of former “Revelations” in the BOM & D&C. A proven fact.
Joseph Smith understanding Egyptian. Proven to be false.
Suppression & Deceptive Changes of Church History. Proven fact.
Lying by Church leaders in regard to Doctrine and Teachings and History. Proven Fact.
False Doctrine taught by Prophets and Leaders. Proven Fact.
The list goes on and on. There is no ‘supposed’ or ‘apparent’ qualifiers to the above list. They are all supported by the Church’s own History & statements of it’s leaders.
As a former Mormon who KNOWS this is true, I have had the courage to admit the truth of it and KNOW they are false and directly contradict the teachings of the Bible and our Saviour & will continue to challenge those that have or continue to teach and believe in them.
I am satisfied that the Book of Mormon came about as was revealed to JS. As one Prophet stated the whole of Mormonism lies on one of two things, either the BOM is a huge fraud, and comes from the depths of Hell, or it is the Word of God, and a second testament that Jesus is the Christ. I have put the test to the BOM and found it to be everything God promises it is.
“So I’m asking you, friends in the Mormon Coffee community: Why do you challenge Mormons and their belief system?”
I see nothing in your above post that really articulates or proves to me or other poster here that you got it right. I respect the fact of your leaving the Church, I can also understand why. When presented with so much evidence, some false and speculative, others quiet true, then it really boils down to the Promise made in the BOM and the witness of the HG. I have to ignore some of the problems and hopefully gain more understanding from continuous study and prayer. I never once thought that God just sat down and revealed to JS everything that the Church would have to incorporate from the get go, and firmly believe that it came in bits and pieces even to the prophets of the Church as it was studied and questions were asked. Were there changes? of course there has been, and I suspect more will come as we or the prophets gain more light and knowledge.
Janet.
Janet said “I suspect more will come as we or the prophets gain more light and knowledge.” Don’t hold your breath Janet.
Some guy named Bill McKeever compiled a book on this matter: http://store.mrm.org/books-and-tracts/in-their-own-words-a-collection-of-mormon-quotations.html
Read it and ask yourselves IS G-d really that confused?
I think you will find more “light and knowledge” in one of Grindael’s paragraphs than in a whole book of Mormon quotes. (and all this from a guy whose Marshall stack is on 11) lol
ps. We/I don’t hate you.
Janet,
I always wonder when the Bible says we should not believe another gospel even if an ANGEL of LIGHT should come and proclaim it to us, then why do you trust just a feeling, or emotional confirmation? What Mormons experience in “confirmation” of the BOM, it seems to me to be much less amazing and convincing that an angelic visitation. Why should this then be trusted? If you can’t trust a beautiful amazing Angel coming and speaking directly to you, how can you trust this experience? Scripture – God’s Word, must be the plum line against which we test all who claim new revelation. The BOM does not meet this test in many ways. Emotional, internal feelings and experiences are not to be trusted – for our hearts are wicked and evil above all things.
Ralph commented
My (limited) face to face experience with Mormons is that when I have criticized Joseph Smith, or the LDS organization, the reaction I got was “why are you criticizing me“. The people I spoke to took it very, very personally.
This is very cult-like behaviour. They form such a powerful emotional bond with the cult leader (Joseph Smith) and his creation (the LDS movement), that they will not allow themselves to see anything beyond these two ultimate realities. God, Jesus, the Bible etc, are only tolerated as far as they serve these ultimate realities.
The story of the Ex-Mormon is a story of someone who wakes up, sees the ultimate reality of God above and beyond Smith and his church, and subjects them to Him. Its worth noting in the context of this thread because the emotional roller coaster that they describe comes about because they perceive the challenge to their church as a direct threat to their self-identity.
What I mean by subjecting Smith and his church to God is evident in the outcome; they leave because they cannot reconcile the darkness that they see in it with, for example, 1 John 1:5
Thank you bfwjr & Martin. I will continue to challenge doctrine such as these: unscriptural, false, heretical teachings NEVER taught or endorsed by Jesus:
“If men turn traitors to God and His servants, their blood will surely be shed, or else they will be damned, and that too according to their covenants” (JOD 4:375 – temple covenant breaking) For adultery: JOD3:247; For stealing: JOD 1:108; For interracial marriage: JOD 10:110)
What a difference from this scripture:
“And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:13, 14). Thanks to Bill again, see: http://www.mrm.org/blood-atonement
Imagine if Joseph Smith had become President? Or if Mormonism had been allowed to flourish unchallenged by the Government in Utah?
This revelation was printed in the Book of Commandments as chapter 4. Verse 2 & reads as follows: “…and he has a gift to translate the book, and I have commanded him that he shall pretend to no other gift, for I will grant him no other gift.” (1830)
I will continue to challenge a god who has to ‘change his mind’ constantly:
“And you have a gift to translate the plates; and this is the first gift that I bestowed upon you; and I commanded that you should pretend to no other gift, until my purpose is fulfilled in this; for I will grant unto you no other gift until it is finished” (Doctrine and Covenants, 5:4) (reprint with no word of explanation in 1835)
See Romans 11:33 for Paul’s description of God as ‘all-knowing’.
David Whitmer summed it up the best for us:
Is it possible that the minds of men can be so blinded as to believe that God would give these revelations—command them to print them in His Book of Commandments—and then afterwards command them to change and add to them some words which change the meaning entirely? As if God had changed his mind entirely after giving his word? Is it possible that a man who pretends to any spirituality would believe that God would work in any such manner? (Saints’ Herald, February 5,1887).
See Romans 11:33 for Paul’s description of God as ‘all-knowing’. But Mormons throw common sense out the window, and pray for a confirmation as to the truth of the Book of Mormon without investigating those who said it came from God. What, the same God who has to change his mind every few years about who He is, and what His doctrines really are? The same God who inspires prophets that lie:
“I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man does not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this…I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are – whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me…What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-11, 1843.)
Smith at this time had many wives & was living in adultery by breaking the laws of the land. It would be like me founding a Church, then endorsing bank robbery in secret, to a select few of those members (claiming to them I wanted to use the money to help the poor & build up the Church and God commanded me to do so), then lying and saying I never taught it, or did it, when it was found out by the authorities and I was arrested for it or others in the Church (who did not know or agree) accused me of it.
Here is future prophet Taylor, doing just this thing in 1850 and criticizing those who left the Church over polygamy, when he himself was living with THREE wives:
The saints of the last days have witnessed the outgoings and incomings of so many apostates that nothing but truth has any effect upon them. In the present instance, after the sham quotations of Sidney and his clique, from the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants, to skulk off, under the “dreadful splendor” of “spiritual wifery,” which is brought into the account as graciously as if the law of the land allowed a man a plurality of wives, is fiendish, and like the rest of Sidney’s revelation, just because he wanted “to go to Pittsburg and live.” Wo to the man or men who will thus wilfully lie to injure an innocent people! The law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once, but if any man’s wife die, he has a right to marry another, and to be sealed to both for eternity; to the living and the dead! there is no law of God or man against it! This is all the spiritual wife system that was ever tolerated in the church, and they know it…. An Old Man of Israel. (Times and Seasons 5 [November 15, 1844]: 715)
This was blatant, bald-faced lying. It would be three years later in SLC that the Church would promote polygamy as one of the greatest laws of God!
What Sidney Rigdon & other said was perfectly true & Taylor knew it, and called him an apostate. These are the men who tell you to believe in the Book of Mormon. Does this still go on today? Yes it does. Press on, constant reader:
Concerning this lying (about Polygamy) , Dallin Oaks had this to say:
“I do not know what to think of all of this, except I am glad I was not faced with the pressures those good people faced. My heart goes out to them for their bravery and their sacrifices, of which I am a direct beneficiary. I will not judge them. That judgement belongs to the Lord, who knows all of the circumstances and the hearts of the actors, a level of comprehension and wisdom not approached by even the most knowledgeable historians.
“I ask myself, “If some of these Mormon leaders or members lied, therefore, what?” I reject a “therefore” which asserts or implies that this example shows that lying is morally permissible or that lying is a tradition or even a tolerated condition in the Mormon community or among the leaders of our church. That is not so.” -Dallin H. Oaks, Gospel Teachings About Lying, address to faculty, students, and alumni of BYU on September 12, 1993)
But in 2002, Oaks did the same thing. Steve Benson (grandson of Prophet Ezra Taft Benson) described a firsthand experience with Apostle Dallin H. Oaks in which he was requested to hide the truth:
“Oaks expected me to cover for him after he lied in public about what we had talked about in private. In an on-the-record interview with a newspaper reporter, he blatantly misrepresented the truth about Boyd K. Packer’s involvement in the excommunication of Salt Lake author, Paul Toscano–who had attracted scowling Church attention for, among other things, suggesting that members need not perpetuate a Cult of Personality by standing up when General Authorities walked into the room. “Oaks had shared the details of Packer’s involvement with me in a second, ‘confidential’ meeting on September 24, 1993 (also attended by Maxwell). There, Oaks confessed that Packer had inappropriately injected himself into local Church action against Toscano, in the process violating Church disciplinary procedures and opening the Church up to a possible lawsuit from Toscano. Referring to Packer as the source of these headaches, a frustrated Oaks told me, “You can’t stage manage a grizzly bear.” When subsequently asked by the media about rumors that Packer had worked behind the scenes to get Toscano excommunicated, Oaks claimed ignorance and denied that Packer could ever do such a thing. “Had I remained silent in the face of these lies, I would have been an accessory to Oaks’ falsifications. Oaks had demanded that I not talk about the conversations we had about the Toscano/Packer affair. Oaks had then prevaricated on the record about what we discussed. Finally, once the cat was out of the bag, Oaks had expected me to cover his keister by covering my mouth.” (Steve Benson, Conversations Behind the Mormon Curtain: A First-Person Account of Meetings Between LDS Apostles Dallin H. Oaks, Neal A. Maxwell, and Steve and Mary Ann Benson, November 21, 2002) see: http://www.lds-mormon.com/benson1.shtml
There are many more examples of this, constant readers. Should you do what Steve Benson did, continue to challenge such behavior in your own church? Yes you should. And if your Apostles act this way, how can they be special witnesses to Jesus Christ & be examples and leaders of His Truth when they are obviously inspired by the father of all lies, Satan? One poster saying all this really boils down to “the Promise made in the BOM and the witness of the HG”, could not be farther from the truth. In the face of evidence about David Koresh, would you then pray to God and ask him if HIS supposed revelations were true? That is why the Church whitewashes Joseph Smith, because his life cannot stand the prophetic test, and leaders in the Mormon Church today still do the same things: lie, hide & obfuscate the Truth about who he was. ‘No man knows my history?’ I don’t think so. But the Mormon Church would have it be that way to promote the lie that is the Book of Mormon.
Grindael,
When you mentioned Steve Benson, I remembered his
anger at the Mormon leadership for the way they
treated his grandfather, prophet Ezra T. Benson.
In his later years his grandfather was so senile ,
yet to give the impression that he was still on
the job as prophet, he was propted up like some
store front mannequin as it were.
These do:
No first vision … Money digger … (angle to scam people… pretended visit from Moroni) … peeping and money digging …. gold bible & use of peepstone to translate it …. BOM …. first vision added to bolster prophetic claims …
That alone should give them pause in promoting it as ‘scripture’. Hope they continue to cut & slash Smith out of their church & hold on to the Temple Property. But money talks…hopefully God will continue to frustrate the Mormon claims to Zion.
It is interesting that the RLDS prophets would ‘retire’. At least they had some semblance of sanity about the whole process. Once they went down the road of ejecting most of Smith’s doctrines, they came a lot closer to True Christianity. They need to go all the way though, and eject the BOM. These peices just don’t fit:
FIRST VISION …MONEYDIGGING…VISIT FROM MORONI/NEPHI …MONEYDIGGING & STONE PEEPER …. BOM.
Oaks comments are telling: ‘of which I am a direct beneficiary….’
The last comment posted out of order it should read as follows: (can someone delete the one above, thank you)
Mike,
It is interesting that the RLDS prophets would ‘retire’. At least they had some semblance of sanity about the whole process. Once they went down the road of ejecting most of Smith’s doctrines, they came a lot closer to True Christianity. They need to go all the way though, and eject the BOM. These peices just don’t fit:
FIRST VISION …MONEYDIGGING…VISIT FROM MORONI/NEPHI …MONEYDIGGING & STONE PEEPER …. BOM.
These do:
No first vision … Money digger … (angle to scam people… pretended visit from Moroni) … peeping and money digging …. gold bible & use of peepstone to translate it …. BOM …. first vision added to bolster prophetic claims …
That alone should give them pause in promoting it as ’scripture’. Hope they continue to cut & slash Smith out of their church & hold on to the Temple Property. But money talks…hopefully God will continue to frustrate the Mormon claims to Zion.
Oaks comments are telling: ‘of which I am a direct beneficiary….
Grindael,
So amazing to read your writing. Glad you are here.
I challenge LDS beliefs because of their recruitment tactics. I was ready to learn about LDS and met for several months with missionaries. I was curious because LDS promoted families and had TV commercials about showing love in difficult situations. But meeting with the missionaries was all about reading the BOM, accepting JS, and joining the church, even if it meant leaving family and friends behind. I kept getting stuck on the fact that God would not need one man to save the world and correct His Word. I was presented with 12 pages of history about the Bible, a history that should convince me that it’s not a reliable book. At ward services, no Bible was present or preached from. A majority of the children present had blond hair and that bothered me although I couldn’t figure out why. For 4 months I met with missionaries, attended several ward services and BOM adult Sunday school classes, visited local LDS sites (Hill Cumorah), attended a baptism, attended a Christmas service, and viewed several LDS movies. All of it was focused on JS. I happened to be exposed to the teaching of exaltation in Sunday school and the missionary asked me if I was “weirded out.” That’s when I ended the visits with them. Why hadn’t they mentioned that doctrine in all the months before? They are taught very strict recruitment tactics. The missionaries are tightly controlled by their superiors and have very limited access to their families and even to the outside world.
I live in an area that has a large local Mennonite community. I challenge them in the same way I challenge LDS. How can you go into all the world and preach the gospel when you can’t even relate to others in your own community?
Linda
Concerning your experiences with the Mormon
missionaries, you said,
” Why did’nt they mention that doctrine in all
the months before? They are taught very strict
recruitment tactics.”
Monmon missionaries seem to be famous for using
certain sales tactics, the worst of which is that
of purposely with-holding vital information on
the topic being discussed with a potential convert.Years ago I personally experieced this
also. It needs to mentioned that this is not an
example of “milk before meat”.That principle I
understand.I’m talking about down-playing and
even denying certain doctrines.More troubling
than that is the fact of the missionary being
forbidden to even describe some teachings basic
to their faith (Temple ritual).
I just received the newsletter from Concerned
Christians, out of Mesa, Arizona.It contains
a recent experience relative to the above theme.
” Our new year began with a phone call from
frantic parents in Sedona. Their daughter had
been taking the missionary discussions and had
announced her plan to join the LDS church. When
Bob and I arrived at their home in Sedona we
found a large crowd of friends(about 6) two
pastors,Jacqueline’s sister and parents….I was
encouraged by the discussion that took place….
the missionaries were equally honest about their
beliefs that men could become gods and that they
worship three gods rather than the one God of the
Bible….After the missionaries left, Jacqueline
confided in us about how surprised she was to see
their stories change about their beliefs….The
next day Jacqueline called and told us that she
decided not to join the LDS church.She said the
most convincing arguments were made by me and Bob
because we showed her evidence that proved that
the missionaries were lying by omission.”
No first vision … Money digger … (angle to scam people… pretended visit from Moroni) … peeping and money digging …. gold bible & use of peepstone to translate it …. BOM …. first vision added to bolster prophetic claims …
All wonderful talking points, some even having a truth to them.
Now my list of absolutes:
Book of Mormon is exactly what it is claimed to be, a second witness that Jesus is the Christ.
11 witnesses besides JS claim it to be true and were privileged to have it shown to them, some even flipped the pages of Gold, and saw an angel.
Prophets and apostles, fashioned after the NT Church.
Latter Day Revelation, Doctrine and Covenants.
Book of Abraham, more truth about eternal progression.
Temples of the Lord
Baptism for the Dead
Sealing of families for eternity
Knowledge that Christ is the Literal Son of God.
Preexistence taught again
Ordinances taught that are essential for Exaltation
Plural Marriage, once taught in the OT, and shown to be Gods Law.
Marriage is for time and eternity
Ex nihilo is shown as a false doctrine
Six Day of creation is false and taught by the precepts of men.
Faith, Repentance, Baptism and gift of the HG as taught in the NT.
Priesthood Restored again.
ETC. etc, etc.
Janet.
Absolutes:
BOM NEVER PROVEN TO BE TRUE (except by ‘testimony’), while the Bible is based on Historical FACT, Manuscripts & Unrefutable evidence.
11 Witnesses duped by Smith
Prophet & Apostles of Mormonism shown to be liars, frauds and have taught heretical false doctrines.
Latter Day Revelation is shown to be false, changed, tampered with & unscriptural.
BOA is a phony ‘mistranslated’ Egyptian Breathing permit & hoax by Smith.
Temple and ‘secret’ blood oath rituals are unbiblical, and stolen from the masons by Smith.
Baptism for the Dead is a redundant doctrine, with no scriptural basis
Jesus said there would be no marriages in the resurrection. UnNeeded doctrine to support Smith’s lecherous penchant for women & polygamy.
Mormon Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus.
Pre-existence unbiblical, & comes from Smith’s phony book of Abraham.
Ordinances like Blood Oaths & Priesthood are unbiblical and Heretical.
Polygamy is condemned by God, and always has been.
Marraige for eternity is based on a phony priesthood sealing power and keys that do not exist and are based on a false doctored revelation changed by Smith.
God created everything. (Mormons love to limit Him)
Mormons believe in a doctrine of Works and the redeeming power of Christ means nothing because they teach that sins must be atoned for with the shedding of your own blood.
ETC, ETC, ETC.
The above is typical drone responses with no evidence to back them up. Mormons never refute or prove the statements of their prophets never happened on blood atonement, adam-god, racism, doctored revelations, the suppression of documents, the duping of prophets, false prophecies, rescinded doctrines in the face of legal action by the United States, the lying of it’s leaders, No historical or archeological evidence for the BOM, BOA, etc. and it goes on and on. The best such can do is say the doctrines are ‘snippets’ & taken out of context. They cannot refute such FACTS as an Apostle, Bruce McConkie revealing B. Young taught false doctrine, etc. etc, or that Smith was arrested and tried for using a peepstone to dupe people. Those are the facts, and they speak for themselves.
Yes they supposedly will have to speak for themselves, since actual facts and evidence has been refuted time and time again. Our beliefs are founded on truths. Mistakes have been made, men are human and when we compare Mormonism to our supposed Christian friends and there doctrines and creeds we find that they have to admit there were many mistakes made thru-out their history from the time of Christ even up until now, and the list is long and embarrassing.
Janet.
Not as embarrassing as a ‘prophet’ who called himself a god, king and claimed ‘god was his right hand man,’ had affairs with 14 year olds, supported his ‘revelations’ with the use of a peepstone, beat people up, lied to the world and his church, & used the pretext of a phony ‘apostasy’ to substantiate his ludacris authority claims. His total lack of inspiration is evident in his wacky ‘translation’ of an Egyptian Breathing Document (claiming it was 3500 years old) & his equally wacky claims that the Kinderhook plates were genuine and he could ‘translate’ them. His delusions of grandeur and total disregard for the laws of the land led him to Carthage, where a band of men, sick of his phony claims and flagrant violations of the law gunned him down and put an end to him. I see no refutations from the poster above, just a lack of knowledge about their own church. Jesus and the Bible may be embarrassing to you, but he said the gates of hell would never prevail against Him and his word. They have not, though Smith would like to think so. Challenges have been made, but none answered, as usual.
Your complete out of context statements and talking points do you little if any good. Misrepresenting the true context is by far a tool of some such as you in defaming a honest man. Accusations without facts and evidence is pretty close to being a false witness, but I will let you slide since you have been duped and then unwittingly and foolishly articulate what you have been taught or read with your blinders on. Do your self a big favor and read something other then the Tanners and the rest of the ilk. Since you have more problems in proving the BOM false, the Book of Abraham false and the book of Moses false, you go down your standard peripheral side avenues, trying to diffuse the real issues that so far have stumped you and your myriad of duped followers.
Janet.
Janet,
Thank you once again, for making our Christian point of view so obvious for the readers: Jesus Christ’s message is simple and beautiful. Mormonism is a complete and utter perversion of Biblical Christianity and hence Christ’s message.
Hence this is why you’re a Evangelical and I’m LDS. Choice.
I choose the Church of Restoration, Revelation and progression, and I guess you are stuck on stagnation and orthodoxy. I think we both made good choices that fit our idea of what the Gospel is, and to me it’s a proclamation that Jesus is the Christ.
J.
Janet,
Is there anything an LDS member would consider heresy? Probably not. You call it progression. If it’s so true and correct, why is there LDS and FLDS? Can’t your god get anything right? Have you ever read the New Testament? And I don’t mean JS’s version.
Who owns the copyright to the Book of Mormon? LDS or FLDS?
Janet.
RLDS maybe? I don’t know. Mistakes were made, you admit. Your god was only human after all.
It’s “God”, please try being respectful.
J.
Sharon asks, So I’m asking you, friends in the Mormon Coffee community: Why do you challenge Mormons and their belief system?
In my fellow Christians on this board I find Jesus Christ and his message alive and well. I see kindred souls with broken hearts and hearts that break daily pleading with others not to get lost in the promises and doctrines of men. I see a group of people that have invited Christ to dwell in them, a group that truly know him. Christ compels them. His message led them here and it leads them on.
My statements are not ‘out of context’, as my posts from the last six months attest. Read them, but ah yes, you have a testimony, so there is no need to do any investigation and you can drone away the hours believing in Prophets that lie, (proved on this thread), teach heresy like blood atonement (proved on this thread) and believe in a god that gives false prophecies to it’s false prophets. (proved on this thread).
Your arguments are shallow, never proven, and will be challenged continually by those that have come to a knowledge of the truth in Jesus the GOD of this world, who in love has reached out to you, and you have rejected for the heretical Mormon god who is nothing like the God of the Bible.
Challenged is fine and this forum is a great venue to debate those assertions, accusations, and speculations.
May I repeat: “Since you have more problems in proving the BOM false, the Book of Abraham false and the book of Moses false, you instead go down your standard peripheral side avenues, trying to diffuse the real issues that so far have stumped you and your myriad of duped followers.
So far nothing here or anywhere else has convinced me or many other LDS that you or others have proven anything concrete in your repeated and overused talking points concerning our Scriptures. When push comes to shove, those who are inclined to be baptized and join, are those who actually read them, and have had them confirmed by the HG. We can debate both sides of the divide, post multiple and lengthy articles, that only come across as bias opinions, some truths, and lots of false misrepresentations, or we can ask that you step up to the plate and prove to us that JS did not receive any revelation, no visions, and that there never were any Brass Plates. You need to prove that the 11 witnesses were all frauds, or deceived by an angel of light, that none of them even felt or turned the leafy metal pages, never heard a voice, and then went on to live with that lie for the rest of their lives, some even leaving or being excommunicated. That is a tough nut to crack.
Janet.
Or we can simply dismiss it out of hand with a much evidence as you provide… none.
Constant Readers, The story of the Witnesses to the BOM is a confused and convoluted mess. Apostle John A. Widtsoe said that the eleven men who testified to the truthfulness of the BOM had “spotless reputations.” This is false, and most of them were defamed by none other than Smith himself. Only three of the witnesses claimed to see an ‘angel’ and there are problems with this testimony. Mormons claim they never denied their testimony, but there is evidence this is false also.
The following appeared in a poem that was published in the Mormon publication Times and Seasons in 1841 (vol. 2, p.482):
About the same time this poem was published, Cowdery renounced Mormonism and joined the Methodist Protestant Church at Tiffin.
Smith gave a revelation in July of 1828 in which Martin Harris, one of the three witnesses, was called a “wicked man,” who “has set at naught the counsels of God, and has broken the most sacred promises” (Doctrine and Covenants 3:12-13. In another revelation given sometime later, mormon god told Joseph Smith that Harris “is a wicked man, for he has sought to take away the things wherewith you have been entrusted; and he has also sought to destroy your gift” (Ibid., 10:7) The ONLY gift mormon god said Smith would have, but he changed this too.
This was BEFORE Harris supposedly witnessed the angel & the gold bible, & the Mormons later would bring up this ‘revelation’ over and over to show how wicked he was, yet say he was so ‘spotless’ when speaking of him in connection with his testimony of the BOM. Talk about schizophrenic behavior! There is little doubt the BOM witnesses were extremely gullible. Hiram Page had a peep stone which he used to obtain revelations.