The Comfort of Knowing God Was a Sinner

Kathryn, a local Mormon, wrote to me on November 7:

“We believe that [God] was in our same situations. I don’t want someone judging me, until they have walked in my shoes. I am sure God has sinned. How else would he know and understand that he didn’t want his children to feel that pain. The difference between God and I, is that he took the steps to fix his wrongs. He offers the same to us.”

To people who think this way:┬áDo you believe you can say Jesus was also in your shoes (enough to be your friend, sympathizer, Lord, and Savior), since he never was a sinner? We are taught in Hebrews 4:15, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”

The above Mormon logic also seems to  prevent the Mormon Jesus from becoming a Heavenly Father (like ours) someday over his own set of literally begotten spirit children. The same accusation that the Mormon leveled against the sinless God is what spirit children would be able to accuse Jesus of.

Neighbors: Run very, very far away from any Church which so comfortably fosters and tolerates this kind of thinking.

As always, check out GodNeverSinned.com.

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119 Responses to The Comfort of Knowing God Was a Sinner

  1. Violet says:

    'So you don't believe God OR Jesus. . . .Christ Jesus IS God. God is Christ Jesus. Its not an either, or.

  2. f_melo says:

    and you didn´t even mention how the early mormon leaders said horrible things about Christians and Christianity – Christians actually should be offended at the sight of a mormon church or missionaries – yet, the Christian attitude is incredibly forgiving, and some Christians even dedicate their entire lives to try to open their eyes to the truth.

    That´s truly Christian love, there´s no other way to describe it.

  3. f_melo says:

    "Does anyone know how many heavenly mothers there are?"

    Considering how god is a polygamous man, according to mormonism many of us may have the same father but not the same mother – what a mess! Now, consider all the women that were sealed in life to BY and those sealed to him after he died… that´s how many women BY "will" have as a god.

  4. f_melo says:

    Falcon, while i agree with your arguments i don´t think mormons would be easily manipulated to commit crime. Ralph is an exception. Most of my friends and family are mormons, and while their "testimony" keeps them in the faith because they can´t deny certain spiritual experiences(and obviously the emotional attachment they have to it), their general experience with the church is one of grief, because of the abuses they go through in it. That abuse comes from insensitive leaders, false friends, jealousy, disputes, spiritual threatenings, etc.

    I usually hear "if i didn´t know the church was true, i would have left it a long time ago".

    Many of them actually question and defy some church policies, and are not overall happy with how things are going. Parents like it because they can use a "prophet´s" authority to keep their children in line while at the same time they can break lots of minor commandments unnoticed.

    So, for me, the real evil of mormonism is to deceive people concerning salvation and who Jesus actually is and to keep people in bondage sacrificing their time, money and talents for something that is false.

    That mentality Ralph has comes from their misunderstanding of the Bible, because they´ll usually mention God commanding the people of Israel to kill other peoples in the Old Testament. They think they are latter-day spiritual Israel, so if God commands a Holy War, they will do so. That happens, of course, thanks to a bunch of liars and manipulators that have the guts to call themselves apostles and prophets.

    I believe that if "Israel"(mormons) were required to kill for their religion, just the smallest part of them would do so(of course, that if they weren´t attacked first). Most mormons today are very different from the ones involved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Some of them may say stuff like "i´d kill for the prophet", but when the time comes i´m sure those guys will cower.

  5. f_melo says:

    "In my world, someone claiming such a thing better have some significant evidence to prove their claims"

    That´s the problem – when you study the Bible and present your conclusions that differ from what mormon prophets have taught, they´ll say "well, you´re relying on your intelligence to understand the words of God, but you have to rely on the Spirit to tell you the true meaning of the scriptures".

    You just CAN´T win. They say Bible only has a meaning that can be grasped with "spiritual eyes". Of course, i´m not forgetting the words of Paul when he said that the things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God, but anyone can read the Bible and understand it, yet accepting it as true and actually comprehending it is only given by God through His Spirit.

  6. falcon says:

    f melo,
    Your first paragraph is very interesting. I've heard about this experience that exMormons report. That is, spying, judging and pressure that they experienced when in the morg. I'm just wondering if this is typical or if it's the exception. Abusive spiritual systems have all sorts of "rules", written and unwritten. The unwritten rules are the ones whereby people are controlled. So that's why I often wonder about people who leave Mormonism, some of whom become Christians and others atheists. Are the atheists the ones who chafed under the oppressive religious system and culture and are the Christians those who discover the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and who God really is as opposed to what Mormonism teaches?

  7. Thanks for your candor, Ralph.

    If both the Father and the Son never sinned, then another problem exists in Mormon theology: it becomes very difficult to appeal to the Father as an example of a man just like us becoming a God. In other words, the whole plan of salvation is devoid of any specific examples of sinners who fully became Gods—just an assumption that potentially billions of such once-sinful Gods exist out there in the heavenly realms.

    It also begs the question of why there is such a special strain of sinless savior Gods, and why some are in this strain, and some are not. It makes the plan of salvation for us mortals seem like a Plan B, for the mediocre in pre-mortality.

    Of course, the fundamental principle that I am promoting throughout all the GodNeverSinned.com material is that it is just wrong for any once-sinful God to be worshiped and to call himself the Holy of Holies. The only kind of God worthy of worship is a God who never sinned.

    Grace and peace,

    Aaron

  8. f_melo says:

    "That is, spying, judging and pressure that they experienced when in the morg. I'm just wondering if this is typical or if it's the exception."

    That abuse that i wrote about is common among those mormons who are committed to serving in the church although most Mormons will deny it to preserve the church´s good image – but just keep asking personal questions and they´ll eventually talk about it. It will affect you unless you´re one of those mormons that only go to sacrament meeting and leave as fast as you can after it is finished.

    "Are the atheists the ones who chafed under the oppressive religious system and culture and are the Christians those who discover the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and who God really is as opposed to what Mormonism teaches?"

    That´s my impression so far as well. I was really angry when i found out the truth about the church, but i concluded that they must have lied to me about God and Jesus as well. Shawn McCraney´s show helped me realize how i had been reading the Bible wrong, and that got me to go do hours of research on it and i actually learned how to properly study the Bible and i love it, i can go hours straight(as a mormon reading the Bible was just painful). Otherwise i´d probably just have put religion down altogether and forget about it. I wouldn´t have become an atheist, i always thought that Evolution via Natural Selection wasn´t a satisfactory explanation for anything. I guess that would have made an agnostic, right?

  9. wyomingwilly says:

    Ralph, I'm not so sure about the " Mexican stand-off " thing . While it's great to see that you
    seem to agree with your leaders on how vital it is to base your beliefs on scripture : " We have
    accepted the four Standard Works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we
    measure every man's doctrine. " [ joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation,v3p.203 ]
    However, there's a problem. Mormon leaders have taught some significant doctrines that have
    little or no scriptural basis to them at all. When I notice the authoratative claims made by
    Mormon General Authorities , such as how they claim to be responsible and reliable to
    "relay" truth from God , and that the prophet is said to be the source for "pure doctrine ", then
    I have to test these claims by scripture as Jesus said that imposters to the prophetic office
    will come and they would influence people. Here's a few examples of Mormon doctrine that
    appear to have no scriptural backing :

  10. RalphNWatts says:

    Imagine that you had been married for 5 years. One night you had a dream in which you were unfaithful to your spouse. The person you were with in your dream was no one you had seen met or knew, just a made up person and that it’s the only time this has happened since you have been married. In keeping with being honest in your relationship you tell your spouse about it, making the point that it was a dream and that the person was just a made up person, no one that existed as far as you knew. When one of you was on your death bed at the end of a full 70 years marriage, your spouse then confides in you that they never trusted you from that day on. They were always checking on your where-abouts in secret, using the GPS tracker on your phone; using friends around the place to keep an eye on you; etc. They told you that that 5 minutes of a dream had defined your whole 36817200 minutes of your marriage.

    So do you agree there, that you are an adulterer and your spouse could not trust you at all anymore; And that your spouse was justified in keeping tabs on you all the time? Did that 5 minutes really define your whole 70 years of marriage?

    Now think of 75 years in an eternity. Does that really define you?

    Also go through D&C 76:50-103; these describe the 3 degrees of glory and the types of people who will be going into those kingdoms. You will find that anyone who has committed murder or adultery of any kind cannot go into the CK even if they have repented. So the ones who make exaltation and become gods (D&C76:58; D&C 132:20) are the ones who are faithful to the commandments and only commit ‘small sins’. And these sins have been washed away by the Atonement of Jesus so the person in the CK is clean and pure and perfected from all sins.

  11. RalphNWatts says:

    Please read what I have written in response to Aaron's question below. No rapists will become gods even if they repent.

  12. wyomingwilly says:

    cont, 1. the practice of polandry by mormon leaders. 2. Michael / Adam by name as one
    of 3 creator Gods who created this earth [ Elohim, Jehovah, Michael ] . 3.For years Mormons
    agreed to swear to penalties in Temple ritual that had them mimicking having their throats
    slit if secret religious teachings were divulged to outsiders ( finally abandoned in 1990 ).
    Since the Temple is one of the most holy experiances of a Mormon's life in the church
    Jesus started, any scriptural backing for this ? I know polandry is no longer practiced
    either , but does Mormon authority Joseph Fielding Smith's statement apply to these " truths" ?

  13. RalphNWatts says:

    I will need to do this in a couple of posts as for some reason or another I can't post a large response from my work computer.

    Hopefully these quotes will answer a few questions for people. They were taken from the Institute Manual “Doctrines of the Gospel Studen Manual; Religion 430 & 431” from the chapters about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. This can be downloaded from the Church’s internet site.

    “Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost. . . . “Though each God in the Godhead is a personage, separate and distinct from each of the others, yet they are ‘one God’ . . . , meaning that they are united as one in the attributes of perfection. For instance, each has the fullness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith. Accordingly they all think, act, speak, and are alike in all things; and yet they are three separate and distinct entities. Each occupies space and is and can be in but one place at one time, but each has power and influence that is everywhere present” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 319).

    “There is a oneness in the Godhead as well as a distinctness of personality. This oneness is emphasized in the sayings and writings of prophets and apostles in order to guard against the erroneous idea that these three may be distinct and independent deities and rivals for our worship” (Joseph F. Smith, “Answers to Questions,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1901, 228).

  14. RalphNWatts says:

    “The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:33).

    “As far as man is concerned, all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state. As such he became, under the Father, the Creator of this earth and of worlds without number; and he was then chosen to work out the infinite and eternal atonement, to come to this particular earth as the literal Son of the Father, and to put the whole plan of redemption, salvation, and exaltation in operation.
    “Through him the gospel, all saving truths, and every edifying principle have been revealed in all ages. He is the Eternal Jehovah, the promised Messiah, the Redeemer and Savior, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. By him immortality and eternal life become realities, and through his grace and goodness salvation is possible for all who will believe and obey” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 129).

  15. RalphNWatts says:

    Falcon and fmelo,

    That 'spying, judging and pressure' may be a cultural thing. Over there in some places in America, especially around Utah, some of the communities have a very high population of LDS. So yes I can believe that that is going on over there. But here where I live where the LDS is about 0.1% or less of the population, nothing like that occurs in the way of spying or pressure. Judging is just a human thing. We all judge, even on this board you have judged me and I have judged you whether we wanted to or not.

    So fmelo, you can say from your experience in the areas that you lived in that what you have written is true, but you cannot say it in general about the LDS church.

  16. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    Jesus is the mediator between Heavenly Father and man. Yes Heavenly Father has a body and has been through a physical, mortal experience and thus can empathise with us, Jesus had not. As our mediator He needed that experience. Part of Heavenly Father's empathy for us and His ability to succor us in our time of need is to give us Jesus as our mediator and Saviour and also give us the Holy Ghost as a comforter and promptor for good.

  17. Sarah says:

    See, here's where things are going fishy for me, Ralph. First, thank you for the quotes. They certainly do help in answering my question — to a point.

    But they are extremely contradictory.

    Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost.

    However, in another quote, it says:

    The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body

    And back to the earlier one —

    There is a oneness in the Godhead as well as a distinctness of personality. This oneness is emphasized in the sayings and writings of prophets and apostles in order to guard against the erroneous idea that these three may be distinct and independent deities and rivals for our worship

    So my question now is this — if it is true that God the father, God the son, and God the Holy Ghost are three personages united under one Godhead, and if it is also true that Jesus Christ did not achieve his divinity until after his resurrection, then are you saying that before Christ, there was only God the Father and God the Holy Ghost united under one Godhead? And then when Jesus became a God (emphasis because I'm taking it directly from two of your quotes), he became one united with God the Father and God the Holy Ghost under the same Godhead?

    The Answers to Question quote wants to clarify: in order to guard against the erroneous idea that these three may be distinct and independent deities and rivals for our worship

    I understand that Joseph F. Smith is trying to make sure no one thinks of Mormonism as a polytheistic religion, yes? They are three gods under one purpose, and as the Godhead, they are but one God.

    But if it's true that Jesus was the firstborn son of God and after his resurrection became a God, as it is also taught that exalted Mormons become gods… how is that not a polytheistic religion, thus completely contradictory to the entire teaching of the one, true God of the Holy Bible?

  18. f_melo says:

    "Now think of 75 years in an eternity. Does that really define you? "

    You´re missing the point BIG time.

    In your analogy that guy did nothing wrong – that´s not a sin, it doesn´t matter if he dreamt he was sinning.
    Yet you´re saying that your god actually comitted a sin. Small sins???? Are you saying that thieves are not forgiven in your church, or adulterers? What´s the point of Christ washing sins away if He only washes small sins – that´s pure madness, you´ve lost it completely. Now you´re just blaspheming the blood of Christ.

  19. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    You said ”In reality, that´s only a problem if you consider Father, Son and Holy Ghost as 3 separate beings, each having to have the same set of characteristics.”,

    But that’s the point, the Athanasian Creed points to just that – That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    “Neither confounding the persons” I take to mean that they can be separated as individuals to the extent that there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, regardless of whether the substance can or cannot be divided. The next part of the creed above explains that – “there is one person of …”.

    So what you are saying is that each “one person” does not have to be omniscient as they are part of a whole, and it’s the sum of the parts that makes it omniscient. Am I correct in my understanding of your comment? If so, then you are saying that one does not need to be omniscient to be ‘God’, but part of a conglomerate which overall is omniscient.

  20. f_melo says:

    Ralph, imagine you preaching the Good News to sinners:

    You start saying "Hey, we are all sinners in need of a Savior". The people that have been burdened by the many horrible sins they´ve comitted get their hopes up. Then you say: "Jesus died for all sins, so if you have faith in Him and repent, etc., etc., after that if you do all you can you´ll be exalted and become like Heavenly Father and live with your family in a state of endless happines". The people then start to celebrate, so happy they are to be free from their sins and have such great hopes for their future in eternity. Then in exclamation a convicted murderer who was just let out of prison after many years shouts about how he feels the burden of his sin lifted from him after all those years of grief and repentance. You then look at him and say – "hmmm, hey man, sorry, but what i just said, you know, it´s just for those who commit small sins… so…" The guy then looks at you and starts crying. Next day you find out he committed suicide, and left a note that showed how hopeless he was because he was unforgivable, his sin was just too great for the blood of Christ to cover.

    So, Ralph, it´s easy for you to say that, because apparently you´ve lived in a bubble formed by your nice mormon family and friends, but that´s just not everyone´s situation… you should go to the real world once in a while and rethink that stuff through.

    btw, God did forgive the murderous and adulterous David.

  21. RalphNWatts says:

    Sarah,

    “The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:33).

    You missed this part of the quote (in bold) stating that Jesus was a God before He created this world and went through a mortal life and was resurrected, He just did not have a fullness of being. So the Godhead has always had 3 beings – Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

    No, I don’t see it as JFS trying to make sure no one thinks we are polytheistic, he is just stating that there is only one God that we worship – Heavenly Father, and that although we recognise that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Gods, they are not rivals for the ‘main seat’ as we see played out in the mythology of the Romans and Greeks and their gods.

  22. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    What did Jesus teach about adultery? – Matt 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Does this include dreams? Or do you think it’s OK to dream about other people even though you are married? But that too (ie whether it is a sin or not) is beside the point – I am talking about the spouse and what their thoughts might be. The spouse may just write it off as you have because it was a dream, but I know there are some spouses that would take it as a sign of infidelity and really be paranoid after that point in time. But according to your answer, the spouse is wrong in defining the marriage over that 5 minute dream.

    I never said in my statements that Jesus can only cover small sins. The only we teach that He cannot/will not cover is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. He will forgive murder and adultery, however, I said that people who do commit murder or adultery will not make it into the CK even if they have repented and been forgiven. This is found in the D&C as I referenced. Although they have been forgiven, they lost their blessings relevant to the CK.

  23. f_melo says:

    "So what you are saying is that each “one person” does not have to be omniscient as they are part of a whole, and it’s the sum of the parts that makes it omniscient."

    See, it´s not a conglomerate. It´s one single being. To be fair i haven´t seen any Christian claiming to know exactly how that works, because, as Walter Martin said, in order to understand God you´d have to be God yourself.

    Yet i agree with the Athanasian Creed, because that´s what the scriptures say! Those guys didn´t make that stuff up. You read the Bible and it is clear that there´s one God, yet the Father is God, the son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. so, you figure. Now, you say there´s one God in purpose, and yet there seems to be a little bit of confusion in your church wether Christ should be worshiped or not. You also have that bizarre explanation that people can pray to Jesus if He´s present, thanks to some passages in the Book of Mormon that have people praying to Jesus.

    " If so, then you are saying that one does not need to be omniscient to be ‘God’, but part of a conglomerate which overall is omniscient."

    Again there´s no such thing as that. There´s one God omniscient, manifested in three separate persons. Those are not 3 distinct beings glued together into one.

  24. f_melo says:

    " each has the fullness of truth, knowledge, charity, power, justice, judgment, mercy, and faith"

    Oh, man, that´s precious – God has a fulness of faith? Faith in WHAT? Do you care to enlighten us about that?

    "God the Holy Ghost."

    How is he a god, if he doesn´t have a physical body for the time-being?

  25. f_melo says:

    " to come to this particular earth as the literal Son of the Father"

    and there you have it once again, Elohim had sexual intercourse with Mary!

  26. f_melo says:

    "You missed this part of the quote (in bold) stating that Jesus was a God"

    There goes Ralph again playing fast and loose with the word God.

    Please, define what a god is for us will you? Also could you please define the different categories of Godhood?

    Because it seems you don´t have a criteria because for me to become a god i´d have to be a resurrected being. Yet Jesus and the Holy Ghost don´t need to worry about that one apparently.

    You know who else was a "God" in the pre-mortal life? Lucifer! Yes, that´s right. He was the second to Jesus, pretty much a "God" already because of his intelligence! I´ve heard that several times in church, believe it or not!

    That´s why it is an important matter to define what a god is, otherwise someone might think you believe Satan was once a god.

  27. f_melo says:

    "nothing like that occurs in the way of spying or pressure."

    Sure, if you by chance catch a priesthood holder from your own ward drinking some beer with friends, you´re not going to tell that to you Elder´s Quorum president, or the Bishop?

    No pressure, huh? Nobody in you Elder´s Quorum tells you how God will be so heartbroken if you don´t do your Home Teaching, even though you already spend most of your time at work, and, the time you hope to spend with your family you end up wasting in pointless meetings and church activities that actually break your family apart?

    What church do you actually go to?

  28. f_melo says:

    "Does this include dreams? Or do you think it’s OK to dream about other people even though you are married?"

    Oh, man, this is so ridiculous but i´m going to answer you anyways. Do a little study about dreams – you usually don´t choose what you dream about. I can´t just tell my head before i go to bed: "hey, don´t dream about anything pornographic, ok?". Unless you´re talking about daydreaming. Those you can choose, and if you daydream about another woman other than your wife, you would be committing adultery in your heart, of course.

    "But according to your answer, the spouse is wrong in defining the marriage over that 5 minute dream."

    Your analogy would have some validity if the guy had actually cheated on his wife, and she had forgiven him but still never fully trusted him again. But your analogy as it stands makes no sense whatsoever.

    "I never said in my statements that Jesus can only cover small sins."

    No? what about " So the ones who make exaltation and become gods (D&C76:58; D&C 132:20) are the ones who are faithful to the commandments and only commit ‘small sins’."

    "I said that people who do commit murder or adultery will not make it into the CK even if they have repented and been forgiven."

    Do you think through that stuff, because even as a mormon that made no sense to me. What´s the point of being forgiven if you´re not going to the CK? There´s no hell in mormonism, so those people will end up in the telestial kingdom anyways – so why bother forgiving them for that at all?

  29. falcon says:

    It's always enlightening to know who the Mormon Jesus is. He certainly isn't the Jesus revealed in the Bible, testified to by the apostles and written about by the Church Fathers going back to the second century. The Mormon Jesus is the result of a sexual union between the Mormon god and one of his many wives. According to Bringham Young this Mormon Jesus is the result of the Mormon god having actual physical sex with the Virgin Mary. As a prophet, BY's word is said to be revealed to him.
    The Mormon Jesus is not God incarnate as Jesus is so I don't know how he could be a qualified Savior although in the Mormon system, Jesus is just kind of an add-on for those who are working their way to the brass ring of personal deity.
    So I guess my request is that when Mormons use this rather evangelical language about the Mediator role of Jesus, that they qualify who the Mormon Jesus is. That way there's no confusion among those not knowing what Mormonism is all about.
    As was pointed out, the confused world of Mormonism has the Mormon God as a sinner but Jesus the Bible teaches, was without sin, being God incarnate. I wouldn't let little inconsistencies like that trouble me too much if I where a Mormon. After all, anything can work in Mormonism especially if the Mormon feels good about it, indicating of course that it's true.
    You must really have a big burn going on in your bosom Ralph to buy the Smith fantasy.

  30. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    I have never said that if Jesus was here we can worship Him. That was another LDS member ages ago. I don't know what the church's stance on that but I do know that we teach that Heavenly Father is the only one we worship as our one true God.

    As far as our interpretation of the Godhead being one in purpose as opposed to the Trinity, just look at the Great Intercessory Prayer in John 17 where Jesus wants all true believers to be one even as He and His Father are one. If you want to bring in your interpretation of the Trinity here that means you will all have to become one in substance – ie a big conglomerate.

    The creed states that they are ‘separate’ in a sense that “Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit” So they are separate persons but one in substance. So my point still stands – are you arguing that they can be non-omniscient as their own part, but as a whole they are omniscient.

    May be if I put this in from the creed as well it would help you – ”So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.” So it states that all 3 are Gods but they are one God. So if the Holy Ghost doesn’t know everything can it still be a God as the first statement goes or does it have to be part of the conglomerate as the second statement goes? The same with Jesus, since it is ONLY THE FATHER that knows (ie, the scripture has divided their persons here).

  31. RalphNWatts says:

    A genetic child is a literal child regardless of whether it was conceived in a testtube, by sex or any other manner is it not?

    So while you can glean an interpretation that fits your agendum, it does not mean that is what the actual meaning of the statement is.

  32. RalphNWatts says:

    No on I know of has told the bishop about anyone drinking a beer with their friends. Or trolling the roads for a girl for the night. That is up to the individual to do. At least that's what I know happens here. I know of a few members who smoke and drink and the only way the bishop knows about it is because the member has told him. Even when the bishop didn't know the member friends didn't tell him. So you can only say its from your experience, just like I can say that this is from mine. And as I said – I can agree that in a high concentration area of LDS members, where its a culture and not just a religion as in Utah, that this 'spying' goes on. But that's because its a cultural effect more than a religious one.

  33. Dale says:

    Comments like this are why I couldn't become LDS. Although I can often see their point of view, this belief that God once sinned is horrible to the core and should scare the living daylights out of anyone who is thinking of converting. The reverence is thrown out the window in favor of the belief that everyone can become gods. I feel sick when I hear statements like this one.

  34. Sarah says:

    To clarify two things.

    1. Are you saying that it was Jesus Christ who created the world?

    The dictionary definition of polytheism is this: noun
    the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.

    You say: he is just stating that there is only one God that we worship – Heavenly Father, and that although we recognise that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are Gods, they are not rivals for the ‘main seat’ as we see played out in the mythology of the Romans and Greeks and their gods.

    And I understand. A very good friend of mine is a Mormon and we've had this argument. She said the same thing. She said it's not polytheistic because there "is only one God whom I pray to" — but that's not the definition of polytheism at all. The definition is simply, the belief in more than one god. Period.

    If Mormonism is truly the restoration of the church, wouldn't it hold its ties closely with the Jewish faith that started it all? If that's the case, why a polytheistic religion? The thing that made the Jews stand out — the reason for it all — is that in a world of polytheistic religions, the Jews were worshipping one God, one true God, and the singular monotheistic religion. To be in a current day religion that is polytheistic that calls itself not only a Christian religion but also a restored Christianity? I'm sorry, but I can't even fathom how one can ignore the huge differences.

  35. RalphNWatts says:

    Sarah,

    I never said that we are not polytheistic. I just said that we worship one true God and that the other Gods are not jockeying around to try and oust Him. If you want to go for dictionary meanings, and we have had this conversation before on other posts on this blogsite, we are most likely Henotheistic – meaning we acknowledge the existence of other Gods but only worship one God.

  36. Sarah says:

    How, then, do you claim to be a Christian faith? You're ignoring my point about being a restoration of a faith. A restoration of what faith?

    The Christian God — the one, true God — makes it very clear, even before he sent His son to save us — in the Old Testament book of Isaiah:

    Isaiah 43:10 – Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 45:5 – I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me

    God is very, VERY clear about this. You may claim to worship only one God, but God Himself denies the existence of any other gods.

  37. Sarah says:

    Ralph — I did want to say thank you, again, for answering my questions. I've been engaged in a dialogue with a friend of mine, and sometimes she gives me answers and sometimes she doesn't want to. I thank you for taking the time to respond to mine here!

  38. f_melo says:

    "I have never said that if Jesus was here we can worship Him. That was another LDS member ages ago"

    Actually i´ve learned that in seminary.

    "just look at the Great Intercessory Prayer in John 17"

    Do you mean to say that when Christ says "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." He was asking God to transform them in gods?

    Sorry, but in the Bible you have to look at context, and obviously Christ wasn´t saying that literally.

    Otherwise why would the jews be offended when Christ said in John 5:18"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God."

    You know, if you´re correct, the jews would actually have said "so what, we are just like you". Yet they were offended that Christ made Himself equal to God!!!!!! Why would that be?

    Also why would Jesus say in John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

    You know, Jesus should have known better, He should have known they were all from the same place… i guess you´re right, Jesus didn´t know it all and He was mistaken… He wasn´t a full God yet, right?

    "Heavenly Father is the only one we worship as our one true God. "

    Thomas worshipped Christ and he was an Apostle, a real one – and Christ didn´t rebuke him and said "worship the Father only".

    As the trinity goes, we know that they have different roles, it was the Son, the Word, who created all things. Why wasn´t the Holy Ghost? Nobody knows but God alone – so, if you want to insist that the trinity are three different entities glued into one that´s your problem.

    What i have as my source of information is the Bible, i´m not going to make up stuff to explain things God hasn´t revealed.

  39. f_melo says:

    Ralph, since you´re so crazy about that passage in John 17, why don´t you take a look also at verse 4:

    "have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do"

    Apparently your restoration shows that Christ hadn´t really finished His work… you should read the entire chapter sometimes… it helps…

  40. f_melo says:

    Are you saying that Jesus was a test tube baby?

  41. f_melo says:

    "No on I know of has told the bishop about anyone drinking a beer with their friends. Or trolling the roads for a girl for the night."

    It sounds like a dream ward to me! Of course that spying thing goes from person to person, but i´ve seen some of my mormon friends doing that on facebook, seriously! One guy was posted some pictures with his girlfriend on a trip, and another mormon(who wasn´t a relative of the guy) asked him if they were traveling alone… the conversation obviously ended there.

    " I can agree that in a high concentration area of LDS members, where its a culture and not just a religion as in Utah, that this 'spying' goes on"

    I have to challenge that, because here in Brazil even though the numbers may be high, most are inactive, and there are no high concentration of LDS members anywhere, except maybe Sao Paulo, yet it is still nothing compared to anywhere in the U.S…. and it happens all the time. I think is part of the mormon way of "caring" for one´s neighbor.

    It´s great that you don´t participate on that!

  42. falcon says:

    Ah Ralph,
    Help me out here, which one of the past LDS leaders said that if you worshiped one of the Mormon gods you worshiped all of them. I'm sure you could pull that out since we've discussed it before.
    Mormons are really good at word games and twisting things in such a way that they could make Bill Clinton blush. I'm here, as are the others, to keep you Mormons honest when you start in with the semantic mumbo jumbo.
    I can't figure out why you don't want to worship the number one god of Mormonism. Why you settle for one of the lesser gods who has progressed further than the one you say you worship I'll never know. After all BY taught that the gods continually progress. Why not worship the one that has the most knowledge and light to share with you.
    I don't care which of the gods you happen to worship, that's not an argument you can make for not being polytheistic. You're just playing games in order to attempt to place Mormonism in a better light, which is pretty hard to do.
    You can claim whatever you want to however you plan on being a god yourself. Any time a person acknowledges the presence of more than one god that puts them clearly in the polytheistic camp. You can try to convince yourself otherwise, but that's what you will be identified as by people who don't play Mormon word games.
    Try to keep it real Ralph. Mormonism is what it is regardless of the fact that you want it to appear as something else. Your approach is very Mormon in that Mormons can lie and make it sound like the truth to themselves. Other folks may be fooled but when they do a little digging, they can find the accurate information and judge for themselves as to what the Mormon game plan is.

  43. falcon says:

    I think Jim Spencer has some good advice for Christians interacting on this matter of the multiplicity of gods, with Mormons. In his book, "Have You Witnessed To a Mormon Lately" Jim writes:

    1. Secure an admission from the Mormon regarding the polytheistic nature of Mormonism.
    Mormons will duck and weave and come up with all sorts of lame rationale as to why they aren't polytheists, chief among these is that they only worship the god of this world. The fact of the matter is, acknowledging the existence of more than one god clearly places someone in the polytheistic camp regardless of how many gods they worship. While a Mormon may not be aware of what polytheism is, they certainly know what plurality of gods is. They cling to little mottos like, "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." Mormon theology is the sum of this statement, which of course isn't Biblical in any sense of the word.
    2. Mormons need to understand that God is not a created being. He didn't materialize out of some energy/matter some where out in the cosmos. So is this where the "first" god came from? Mormonism can't push itself back to the beginning.
    3. The Mormon needs to see that the Bible is clearly and absolutely monotheistic.
    The Bible is the revelation of God and who He is. That there is but One God is clearly seen in Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6-7. 44:8, 45:5-6, 45:12, 40:22, 45:18-22, and finally Isaiah 46:8-9 which states, "Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me."
    Finally, Mormons need to know that the god they say they worship, out of the constellation of gods they acknowledge, is in the end, a mere man with none of the attributes of God.
    God is One, infinite, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. The god(s) of Mormonism are merely sinful men who completed a self-improvement program. In the end, the Mormon god, is by nature a sinner who pulled himself up by his bootstraps. This is why Mormonism is so attractive to those who buy this lie. If a man can become (a) god, what's the big deal about god. He's nothing but a mortal man with a little polish. He's wearing a $500 suit, some Gucci dress loafers and he has a great hair cut and a manicure. But in the end, he's just a sinner.

  44. f_melo says:

    " The god(s) of Mormonism are merely sinful men who completed a self-improvement program."

    That´s GREAT!!!!! what a way to put it!!!!

  45. Violet says:

    “The Savior did not have a fulness at first, but after he received his body and the resurrection all power was given unto him both in heaven and in earth. Although he was a God, even the Son of God, with power and authority to create this earth and other earths, yet there were some things lacking which he did not receive until after his resurrection. In other words he had not received the fulness until he got a resurrected body” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines . . .

    Ralph. If you are driving a Ford, the mormon church says go to the Ford dealer for all the answers to your questions. They are the experts. (ie. mormons go to lds.org site, straight to the source.) If you buy a house, do you go to the Seller for inspection? Of course not. You go to an impartial third party. All of your arguments are based on the fact that the Ford dealer or the Seller is correct. All things are to be tested in light of scripture which is the Word of God, otherwise known as the Bible. You are arguing sources that are false. I believe mormonism is a synthetic religion (plagarism from the Bible, masonry, current events at the time, and lots of lies that would profit the so-called prophet. Power, money, women, under the guise of being perfect gets you to heaven. Strive for perfection. That is guilt-ridden and a heavy burden. Christ Jesus came to take away our burden and we love because we are loved, not to be loved. Insisting my dog is bigger than your dog, my daddy makes more money that your daddy, or my religion is better than yours will never work. I understand mormonism and mormons say they worship Jesus but miss the point of why he came to save us, all of us, not just the 'good guys'. We are poor miserable sinners, no matter how sweet, intelligent, kind we are. Its all Christ Jesus, we are servants of his, not of a religion. Come ye all who are heavy laden . . I suggest watch all 1500 videos of Heart of the Matter, then come and talk.

  46. falcon says:

    In some ways its difficult to demonstrate to Mormons just how vile and repulsive and utterly wicked their blasphemous assault against God is. Because the god of this world has hardened their hearts and darkened their understanding, their spiritual world is a total contradiction to reality. A person with a demented view of the nature of God is locked in a mind set that harbors a lie and acts as a barrier against the truth.
    Imagine telling a pedophile just how revolting, disgusting, wicked and repulsive his behavior towards innocent children is. The pedophile doesn't see it. He only thinks of his own pleasure. Some will even claim to be merely "loving" children. Some might even put on a cloak of righteousness masking their hidden secret sin. The pedophile has recast "normal" to conform with his own sinful behavior and mindset.
    In first Kings verse 21 it says, "And Elijah came near to all the people and said, 'How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him, but if Baal, follow him.' Mormons have decided to follow Baal. They've even seen fit to justify what was clearly occult and deviant behavior on the part of their founder Joseph Smith, so that it becomes normal and acceptable. This is what results from Baal worship of which they are partaking.
    The Mormon prophets are like the prophets of Baal, feckless and powerless. They preach a false gospel and lead people to follow a false god. They lie to the people convincing them that they to can become as gods. Mormons buy this foolishness because the thought of living a righteous life and transforming themselves into gods in the process appears as sound wisdom. They have, in the process, become worshipers of Baal, not of God.

  47. Violet says:

    Do not mormons believe in blood atonement? Maybe because a sin is so horrid, blood can be atoned or something, to repent of sins? Maybe the murderer (in lds faith) may kill himself so that he may be worthy to go to heaven? Something about if your find your wife with another man, if you kill them both, then that is blood atonement. Forgive me for being so vague, but I thought when in doubt, blood atonement covered a really, really, unforgivable sin.

  48. Brian says:

    That's quite an interesting passage you've shared, falcon.

    "I am God and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me." A powerful verse. Thanks.

  49. RalphNWatts says:

    Aah Falcon,

    You know it was Orson Pratt and you also know that he was chewed out for publishing that work because there were some things he said in it that the church leaders (ie first presidency and quorum of the 12 at that time) did not recognise as doctrine, and that was one of those parts as well as he did not get church permission to publish it. So if you bring it up knowing all this, then you are willingly bearing false witness.

  50. wyomingwilly says:

    Dale, if this doctrine starts to make you sick as you think about it , then hold on as it could get
    a little worse ! That is if Aaron decides to run a thread about the Virgin Birth , since it's almost
    Christmas. Several prominent Mormon leaders have shared some interesting things as to how
    they believe Jesus came to be born at Bethlehem. [ hint: Heavenly Father, a man plus Mary, a
    woman equals…..? ]

    ww

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