God Never Sinned Feature Video Launched on YouTube

“Be appalled, O heavens, at this; be shocked, be utterly desolate, declares the Lord, for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” (Jeremiah 2:12-13)

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80 Responses to God Never Sinned Feature Video Launched on YouTube

  1. f_melo says:

    "They were given much, and expressed what they understood – and these expressions of God's revelations are precious, and need to be studied, and applied, and tested."

    So are we studying man´s understanding of what God revealed to them? Why? If that´s the case i should then reject the Bible as Scripture and seek to receive it directly from God so that i can study my own understanding of it. That´s a bizarre concept that turn scriptures into nothing of value besides historical value, maybe…

    "I do believe there are many writings throughout the world from many different cultures – not contained in the Bible – that were written through inspiration, and are the result of encounters with God's work and His hand"

    Hah! That´s a very subtle way to talk about the Book of Mormon… do you have other examples besides the peoples in the American continent?

    "These individuals who wrote would not have been prophets per se, (individuals specifcially sent forth and authorized to present their works as representative of the Lord's will) and such works may not speak of God blatantly, or they may call him by different names. They may make some very mistaken assumptions along with their true insights, and in fact the incorrect may far outweigh the correct and inspired – but the inspired insights are powerful, and can be highly profitable for pondering and learning about the True God."

    Are you referring to Plato, Socrates and other philosophers? Also, how are you able to distinguish between the inspired and the not-so-inspired/wrong insights?

    "I do however, strongly believe that is does present additional authoritative expressions of divine inspiration and revelation that can add powerful new context and understanding to what has gone before.

    See, i don´t know what your criterias are for determining such things, but my judgement rejects that statement – especially after studying JS history as a treasure hunter. Also why do you accept the Mormon church´s revelation and not that coming from Buddha? Does Buddha have true insights about the nature of God that you consider as valid as those of JS?

    "and through the instrument of Joseph Smith in particular – has powerfully changed my life for the better, and has added to my willingness and desire to submit myself to God's will, and to trust in Him."

    That Church has powerfully changed my life for the worse, and almost killed me spiritually. It made me lose almost completely all trust i had in God. Luckily God´s "old" and according to you "incomplete" revelation as found in the Bible brought me to worship at the altar of the true God and brought new life to my spiritual life.

    "The difference is that they were authorized to present this to the world, and specially supported by Him in this task.

    Were they more authorized than the prophets of the Bible? And why are their "understanding" more valuable that that found in the Bible, and what makes it true? Truth is truth and can´t be bent according to people´s understanding.

    "If God is real – and I know He is – and if God loves us – which I know He does – , he won't need for us to rely on interpretations of ancient texts alone to know him, or to hear His voice."

    And finally we have the even more blatant attack against the Bible, and even against the BoM. So why are you relying on JS, why doesn´t God reveal Himself to you directly – you don´t need the middle-man, because, after all, they express God´s Words according to their flawed understanding. Man, you sure use a lot of words to preach a religion that can be summarized by "pray, pay and obey". You should be in politics!

  2. setfreebyjc says:

    Hi Ralph. does it ever, ever, ever say two separate gods?

  3. setfreebyjc says:

    i read the Bible, dtlayman, to hear what main message is coming out as the different authors speak. And one of those few, main messages, is that PEOPLE KEEP FALLING INTO THE WORSHIP OF OTHER "GODS" and that YHWH is not happy about it. He responds to them by telling them not to, by warning them not to, and by eventually, giving them over to their decision– and letting them reap the consequences.

    The reason for His not wanting this other-god worship, is that primarily, there are no other gods. The other 'gods' the cannot help them, cannot even hear them. Their worship is leading them very far from life, truth, and happiness … away from YHWH, the source of those things.

    Back to my question. Given that the Bible has been around for ages, compared to the Mormon scriptures, and given that the Book of Mormon says that it, like the Bible, contains the "fullness of the gospel"… how can God have never told us that there were other gods, and that we could become such, until about 200 years ago? why would He do such a thing?

    Is it just a vast [filtered profanity or slur] conspiracy that made it so there was no mention in either book?

  4. setfreebyjc says:

    Ralph,

    study of the Bible leaves us with three conclusions – one, there is ONLY ONE GOD. Two – Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God. Three- the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, and the Father is not the Spirit.

    That's the Trinity. At least, that is what the "trinity" word describes.

    Is it not ok that we cannot quite understand GOD? It seems to me that a child understands the idea of "God" as being past our understanding. Why can't He be three persons, one God? That's what the Bible says. Perhaps because we cannot quite grasp that, we should just tell Him He can't be like that? Bring Him down to our level?

  5. falcon says:

    Here's something you'll never see: "Mormon Biblical scholar". That's because there is no such animal. Mormons are like other cults members; warehouses of misinformation when it comes not only to the Bible but Christian church history, the Church Fathers and Christian doctrine. At least those folks who post here actually spend the time to research Mormonism and know the doctrines of that cult. What I find entertaining is that Mormons don't even know their own history much less the doctrines of their church. They can't quite get a handle on whether or not something counts or if it doesn't. Part of this has to do with the fact that Mormon doctrine can change with the phases of the moon. That's probably because those Quakers that Joesph Smith said lived up there are messing with the gravitational pull of the earth and confusing the Mormon prophets.
    Mormons just can't seem to get past the idea that because they are "sincere" everything will be alright. All we need is good intentions. So if a bunch of aborigines are dancing around a totem pole and they're being sincere, honest, humble, pious, devout, morally straight and getting good emotional vibes while prancing, hay it's all cool. It all counts for good and salvation. Doesn't matter if they are worshiping the sun, moon, stars or a hunk of wood, they're sincere!

  6. dltayman says:

    So are we studying man´s understanding of what God revealed to them? Why? If that´s the case i should then reject the Bible as Scripture and seek to receive it directly from God so that i can study my own understanding of it. That´s a bizarre concept that turn scriptures into nothing of value besides historical value, maybe…

    Why do we study science, instead of just start from scratch with our own observations? Does doing one mean you can't do the other? God wants us to study his dealings with others, which are often what initially bring us to Him, and then He wants us to also learn from our own personal experience with Him as well. Scriptures are a tool presented to the World to bring us to God and develop our faith to the degree that we are willing to learn from God personally, and willing to act upon what He teaches you.

    See, i don´t know what your criterias are for determining such things, but my judgement rejects that statement – especially after studying JS history as a treasure hunter. Also why do you accept the Mormon church´s revelation and not that coming from Buddha? Does Buddha have true insights about the nature of God that you consider as valid as those of JS?

    You don't believe God can call and use Treasure hunters?

    I have applied and confirmed and been blessed a great deal by putting in practice the principles brought forth from the Revelations presented by LDS Church. They enhance the principles I have learned – and continue to learn – from the valuable Biblical scriptures.

    While the Buddha did not teach about any God, there are buddhist writings that ask wonderful questions that invite pondering on difficult subjects. Such concepts and questions can be springboards to revealed and observed answers.

    Were they more authorized than the prophets of the Bible? And why are their "understanding" more valuable that that found in the Bible, and what makes it true?

    I have no reason to believe any true prophets were 'more authorized' than others.

    The understanding isn't "more valuable", except in the cases where it addresses specific circumstances, counsel, and principles that specifically concern a modern day setting. It's an oft-used example, but Noah didn't rely on old prophetic records to get into the boat – it required a new directive. Moses didn't just apply Noah's revelation, he recieved new and time-specific direction from God as to the specific things needed to do in order to safely get Israel out of Egypt. The Biblical Principle is that, for those able to receive it, God gives present day guidance, and did not ever intend to simply leave an ancient textual depository left to be interpreted. When he desires present day action, he actively directs His people through a spokesman.

    This does not in any way devalue what has come before. What has come before sets the expectation, and presents the Hope of God's directing power. The Scriptures themselves are not the Word. Jesus Christ is the Word. The scriptures are descriptions and explanations and expressions of God and His dealings – and are certainly meant to be of benefit and as a guide to us – a guide to help us to recognize Him, and find Him, and have a desire to Trust in Him completely.

    God did not want us to stop seeking his will and coming to known Him at the close of a book – He lives – and that means he can communicate not only to the world through a unified body or spokemen, but also individually, to confirm that what his spokesmen (living and dead) have declared is True.

    To say God wants us to come to him in addition to reading ancient texts is not an attack on the Bible – it can, however, be seen as an attack on the principle that God ran out of things He wanted to say to humanity – collectively and individually – 2000 years ago.

  7. dltayman says:

    That´s not necessarily true. more info here: http://www.crystalinks.com/scrollsilver.html

    I don't see how that has anything to do with the date when texts were edited, compiled and given their present narrative context, which was what I was describing. Priestly blessings, prayers, and other such traditional oral ritualistic presentations clearly are not original to the compiled histories, and I'm not sure there a single reputable biblical scholar who tries to argue that they would be. That scroll doesn't mean the Book of Deuteronomy or Book of Numbers was present at that time it was drafted – it means that selected sayings later contained in those books were.

  8. dltayman says:

    huh, did i just read straw-man somewhere?

    Would you like me to cite the different places on this blog (many under this post) I, and Mormons in General, have been accused of being each of those things above listed?

  9. f_melo says:

    Setfree, i don´t know why but the word anti mormon is always *** out… weirrrd.. there must be an *********** conspiracy behind it

    *********** ***********

  10. f_melo says:

    Sure, it would be fun – but when you do that, instead of setting up straw-man, please give the full context.

  11. dltayman says:

    So your view of God is that he would save someone who blindly assented to your interpretation of the Bible and followed through with that based on just the acceptance that the Bible says what you say it says…

    …but that he would not save someone who did their own serious and sincere study of the scriptures, prayed sincerely and diligently for guidance, felt He was led by God to an understanding, made difficult decisions to break from family tradition to follow what he believed God desires for Him to do… but those conclusions happened to be different than your particular brand of biblical interpretation?

    That wouldn't make any sense. You have to be passing a judgement and assuming that everyone who doesn't agree with you must be lying about their striving to submit to and learn the will of the Lord.

    Either that, or you believe God isn't really interested in saving individuals, he just wants the correct answers checked on a multiple choice test – where the key to determining the answers is highly and demonstrably open to interpretation.

    It's hard to see the other option of how you understand God. Does he want us to seek him out diligently? If so, will he punish those who do so, but come to a different conclusion based on the gifts, skills, and experience he was provided with?

  12. f_melo says:

    "The find is significant because it helps establish the historicity and the age of Old Testament scripture. In the late 1800s German higher critics began questioning the date the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament) was composed in written form. Many of these critics argued that this section of scripture was written some time after the Babylonian exile."

    "According to Barkay, the discovery of this early biblical inscription is an important part of the argument for an early dating of the Old Testament. He acknowledges that the find does not prove that the Pentateuch was written by the 7th century. However, it is strong evidence for that position. I can at least say that these verses existed in the 7th century … the time of the prophet Jeremiah and the time of King Josiah, Barkay said.

    Barkay published a book about the find in 1986, but recent advances in computer technology have helped researchers discover additional verses on the silver scrolls. The new research technique revealed that the scroll contains other verses from the Pentateuch. Barkay has written a manuscript about these other finds and plans to publish it in the near future.

    While the silver scrolls were discovered more than 20 years ago, little information about the discovery has been available to the general public. Lectures like this are important because most of the articles about finds like those at Ketef Hinnom are published only in scholarly journals, Ortiz said.

    He said he hopes to hold a number of archaeology lectures each year as funding becomes available, and that those lectures will help educate ministerial students and others about important finds that uphold the historicity of the Bible.

    Qualified lecturers such as Barkay also bring credibility to the Center of Archaeology Research, Ortiz said, noting that lectures in the field show that NOBTS is serious about biblical archaeology and could help the school secure a site to excavate and research in the future."

  13. f_melo says:

    "Why do we study science, instead of just start from scratch with our own observations? Does doing one mean you can't do the other? God wants us to study his dealings with others, which are often what initially bring us to Him,"

    First off, that didn´t adress my question at all. We are not talking about God´s dealings, we are talking about men´s recorded understanding of those dealings. If those are just interpretations they are not valid as a solid background since their understanding could be wrong, or they could have had "wrong insights" as you yourself has pointed out, therefore there is nothing to build upon but men´s assumptions. That has nothing to do with science since science build upon previous knowledge through experimentation and discovery, well, unless if you´re a pagan and believe that God is nature… but that´s another story.

    "You don't believe God can call and use Treasure hunters?"

    Yes, but in doing so God would use such a person in His own way and not through a mystical rock with which JS scammed people.

    "I have applied and confirmed and been blessed a great deal by putting in practice the principles brought forth from the Revelations presented by LDS Church. They enhance the principles I have learned – and continue to learn – from the valuable Biblical scriptures."

    People have applied and confirmed and been blessed a great deal by putting in practice the principles of Yoga too. Wake up! The Gospel of Jesus is not about you changing your life, but a spiritual rebirth in which Jesus changes your life for you through His Spirit.

    While the Buddha did not teach about any God

    True, my mistake there. What i mean though is do you accept any teaching of another religious leader as authoritative as those of Joseph Smith?

    "except in the cases where it addresses specific circumstances, counsel, and principles that specifically concern a modern day setting"

    Meet Jesus, your modern-day life consultant. He died for your sins so that He could give you counseling on every area of your life to enable you to have your best life now, and become a god in the next! You have no clue on how God worked through the prophets in the OT, you just proved it.

    "Noah didn't rely on old prophetic records to get into the boat – it required a new directive. Moses didn't just apply Noah's revelation, he recieved new and time-specific direction from God as to the specific things needed to do in order to safely get Israel out of Egypt

    Because without a prophet how could God have told you not to drink Alcohol! It´s the same thing, right? Oh, i know you´re blind(you can add that one to the list of insults), so you don´t get it, but God didn´t reveal any new doctrine or practice at that time, He just told Noah He was going to destroy everything and helped Him to survive. Even if he had though He wouldn´t just come up to Noah and say "you know, i told your parents i´m the only true God, but hey, forget it about it, i´m a part of a council of gods where elder gods can say what i can or i can´t do". Can you see the discrepancy?
    As to Moses, are you joking me? God was keeping His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, consecrating them to be the people through which God would manifest Himself to the world! He didn´t decide to show up just to give guidance for their day to day lives, He gave His law which pointed to Jesus and was to stand until Jesus fulfilled it! How many Moses were there? Way to take things out of perspective there!How can you compare that with Joseph Smith giving the awesome revelation that to become gods you had to have multiple wives… that sounds odd and out of place, it doesn´t fit within the Gospel, and that with everything else, not just polygamy – which is my next point, even when God needed to manifest Himself where there was no previous specific guidance, He didn´t contradict Himself afterwards with some new revelation, neither did He pulled a doctrine out of the blue. The entire Old Testament is consistent with the Law of Moses and God´s revelation, and so is the New with Jesus. God was so merciful that He even taught the children of Israel how to discern between a false prophet and true prophet and by those criterias Joseph is a false prophet.

  14. f_melo says:

    "God did not want us to stop seeking his will and coming to known Him at the close of a book – He lives – and that means he can communicate not only to the world through a unified body or spokemen, but also individually, to confirm that what his spokesmen (living and dead) have declared is True."

    Please don´t tell me the way He does that is through subjective spiritual experiences… He has nothing new in terms of doctrine to reveal, all was fulfilled in Christ and the instructions in the New Testament are enough! He can guide me in my personal life to fulfill His will for me but i don´t expect Him to reveal to me He was a spaghetti monster all along.

    "be seen as an attack on the principle that God ran out of things He wanted to say to humanity – collectively and individually – 2000 years ago"

    WOW! That was mormon arrogance at its worst! You yourself said that Jesus IS God´s Word, Jesus is what God ALWAYS had to say, since the beginning. Your doctrine is nothing but a distraction from the Cross. You don´t want to worship Jesus, you´re not satisfied with Him, because He is not your God, He´s just a bridge for you to attain godhood – that´s why you have that attitude.

  15. f_melo says:

    "So your view of God is that he would save someone who blindly assented to your interpretation of the Bible and followed through with that based on just the acceptance that the Bible says what you say it says…"

    Wow! Talk about straw-man! Isn´t that what you´re doing, believing blindly in everything Joseph taught? I mean, could you ever study the Bible and come to a conclusion different from what Joseph taught as a revelation? I doubt that, but hey, you´re all about finding truth! Sure…

    "…but that he would not save someone who did their own serious and sincere study of the scriptures, prayed sincerely and diligently for guidance, felt He was led by God to an understanding, made difficult decisions to break from family tradition to follow what he believed God desires for Him to do… but those conclusions happened to be different than your particular brand of biblical interpretation?"

    Do you really believe this is just a matter of different interpretations? Can´t you see the discrepancies? I mean, give the Bible to someone who doesn´t have a Christian background and let that person tell you what his conclusions are – they are never coming close to saying anything similar to what Joseph taught about God, His nature, man becoming gods. I´ll say that again, it´s not a matter of different "brand" of Bible interpretation, you follow Joseph´s revelations that supersede, [read carefully] SUPERSEDE the Bible. If you can´t get that through your head…

    "Either that, or you believe God isn't really interested in saving individuals, he just wants the correct answers checked on a multiple choice test – where the key to determining the answers is highly and demonstrably open to interpretation."

    There we go again… So, it doesn´t matter to know Jesus for who He truly is. See, it´s not that difficult, it´s being taught for about 2000 years now, its not a secret dark doctrine that no one agrees on, just you, and Jehovah´s Witnesses. You can be very arrogant about this if you want to, and say you are actually the only ones that got it right in the past 2000 years… but it seems that you don´t care about truly knowing God, your already bought Joseph´s interpretation of it. Highly and demonstrably open to interpretation? Don´t make me laugh! Only Mormons and JWs have those kinds of problems, oh, and Muslims and Jews too, but they want to ruin the whole thing altogether – you want to steal Christianity for yourselves, but you´re too late.

    "It's hard to see the other option of how you understand God. Does he want us to seek him out diligently? If so, will he punish those who do so, but come to a different conclusion based on the gifts, skills, and experience he was provided with?

    If you want to know how to seek God, read the Bible. Simple. Yet you´re not willing to do that, because you believe the way to find God is through Joseph Smith. So all your questions and concerns presented here are phony – you´re just trying to open a crack to then convince people that Joseph is the only way through which we can reach God. Those who come to different conclusions based on things that contradict the Bible are worshiping false gods or even demons maybe.(add demon worshipping to your list) 😛

  16. dltayman says:

    Isn´t that what you´re doing, believing blindly in everything Joseph taught? I mean, could you ever study the Bible and come to a conclusion different from what Joseph taught as a revelation?

    I often come to interpretative conclusions different than Joseph had. He often asked questions based on a misunderstanding of a scripture, and was answered with a doctrinal principle, not an expounding of the historio-social context of the original writing. I'm just as grateful for Joseph's revelations as I am for Johns, Peter's, and Isaiah's. I read and interpret them individually, and also collectively.

    The question is, can you read the Bible and come to an interpretive conclusion different than that found in the Athanasian Creed?

    Do you really believe this is just a matter of different interpretations? Can´t you see the discrepancies? I mean, give the Bible to someone who doesn´t have a Christian background and let that person tell you what his conclusions are – they are never coming close to saying anything similar to what Joseph taught about God, His nature, man becoming gods.

    Of course not. They'll read the New Testament for the first time, not having any Christian or scriptural background, and immediately and clearly discover that it teaches one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. …The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

    And they'll realize that only those who believe that clear and simple truth in exactly those terms and no other interpretation can be saved. Right?

    Do you really believe this is just a matter of different interpretations?

    Yes.

    If you want to know how to seek God, read the Bible. Simple.

    I do. But my standards for interpretation don't allow me to see the truth, wherin your standards (as defined in 4th Century Creeds) does. Right?

    you´re just trying to open a crack to then convince people that Joseph is the only way through which we can reach God.

    I never said that, nor do I believe that.

    Those who come to different conclusions based on things that contradict the Bible are worshiping false gods or even demons maybe.

    I'll just let the circular self-serving reasoning of that set it. It'll probably take a while.

  17. f_melo says:

    "The question is, can you read the Bible and come to an interpretive conclusion different than that found in the Athanasian Creed? "

    Actually i came to a belief in the Trinity before i even read the Athanasian Creed. Just like setfree explained… it´s pretty clear. There is one God, yet the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are worshiped as God. You know, i´m not afraid of discovering new things in the Scriptures, because contradicting the "prophet" could get me excommunicated. Of course, i will study them thoroughly to figure out if my conclusions are correct or not (along with prayer, not for a burning in the bosom though), instead of just going around preaching my ideas like JS did.

    "Do you really believe this is just a matter of different interpretations?

    Yes.

    Wow… yep, i don´t have much more to say after that… amazing… even as a Mormon i knew they were not matter of Biblical interpretation because i didn´t rely on the Bible, since it had been corrupted by evil cave dwelling monks… but that´s just me, you seem to be different kind of Mormon. Do you accept the Book of Abraham as authentic scripture?

    "I often come to interpretative conclusions different than Joseph had. He often asked questions based on a misunderstanding of a scripture, and was answered with a doctrinal principle, not an expounding of the historio-social context of the original writing. I'm just as grateful for Joseph's revelations as I am for Johns, Peter's, and Isaiah's. I read and interpret them individually, and also collectively."

    '

    Seriously that he often asked questions "based on a misunderstanding of a scripture"? Do you mean D&C 113:7?"Questions by Elias Higbee: What is meant by the command in Isaiah, 52d chapter, 1st verse, which saith: Put on thy strength, O Zion—and what people had Isaiah reference to?" Are you going to say that the answers weren´t revelation from God? If they were why didn´t God tell him that? Also, what´s the point of having a prophet if he has no clue how to understand the scriptures? I thought they had that gift given by the Holy Ghost. And you´re accusing me of circular self-serving reasoning? Pathetic, really…
    I wonder if you say those things in Elder´s quorum… if you did you are probably considered a heretic…

    "And they'll realize that only those who believe that clear and simple truth in exactly those terms and no other interpretation can be saved. Right?"

    No, all you have to do is understand them the way setfree explained… so simple even an eight-years old could do it. When you talk about other "interpretations" you´re referring to polytheism and the Bible couldn´t be clearer that that´s wrong, there´s only one God. So, if your interpretations go contrary to what´s already revealed in plain words then you´re worshiping another god… sorry to repeat myself here but that seems to be a concept incredibly hard for you to get it. Even Gordon HInckley got that right – he himself said you worship another Jesus. Also, if you have the right Jesus and i the wrong one, if it matters anyways, i would go to the Telestial Kingdom, a place so good that according to Joseph people would commit suicide to go there. So, i´m not afraid to be wrong, even though i know i´m not(not because of a burning in my bosom, because what Jesus said and i rely on Him). You´re the one that should be worried because in case i´m wrong, i´m still going to a pretty good place! Oh, wait, i´m an ex-mormon, nooooooooooooooooooooo…… wait again…i´ll get a second chance in the Spirit World. Yes! huahuahuahuauh 😛

    "you´re just trying to open a crack to then convince people that Joseph is the only way through which we can reach God.

    I never said that, nor do I believe that."

    Does that mean that i can be "exalted" without being baptized in the Mormon Church? No? Then that´s exactly what you believe. Anybody can see through that PC answer…

    "I'll just let the circular self-serving reasoning of that set it. It'll probably take a while"

    No, you´re wrong. You´re the one that are not getting it. Do you think anybody here is naive enough to believe that you actually took the Bible, read it, studied it, and actually studied Mormon doctrine and then compared the two and found the Mormon doctrine to be an accurate representation of it? Contrary to you i didn´t go first to the creeds to get to my conclusions, i read the Bible first then i started reading church history. You think that the Bible is a self-help book, that has been perverted and has little value theses days. Amazing that you care enough to denigrate the Bible, but you don´t look at the book of Abraham, which is proof enough the JS was a con man. So, do you really want me to believe that YOUR interpretation is the correct one? I don´t put my trust in con men anymore.

  18. 4fivesolas says:

    Clyde – Isaiah 64:6 says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags or a polluted garment. It isn't just Calvinist who rightly say we are depraved and sinful. All of the Christian confessions hold to the Biblical belief in original sin – even the Roman Church believes this. It is a truth that everyone can see with their own eyes – we are sinful, fallen, wicked and evil. Romans 5:12 says "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Pslam 51:5 says "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

  19. 4fivesolas says:

    Yes, we are evil. Jesus said "If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!
    God does not sin, nor does He lie, He is not a man – His Word about us is trustworthy. Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
    We are called by God to be perfect – this is true. How deos that work? Scripture reveals we are sinful; therefore not perfect. We are perfect because while we were STILL sinners Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8) "For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17) Our righteousness, our perfection is a FREE gift, given to us through faith by Jesus death on the cross – He took our sins and atoned for them. We are credited with His righteousness, His perfection.

  20. falcon says:

    You see the fact that it is ugly and reprehensible is why it appeals to Mormons. It means that they are the truly spiritually gifted ones; understanding the deeper things of God. I know, it's nuts but that's the appeal for Mormons. The more convoluted and revolting an idea is, the more they like it. These Mormons really think they're spiritually deep and are into some supernatural insights that are then conformed by feelings meaning that God is speaking to them.
    It's pretty standard "God spoke to my heart" broiler plate stuff. I'm not diminishing or denying that God speaks to people's hearts, but His message is consistent and doesn't change. Progressive revelation is a feel good bunch of nonsense.

  21. falcon says:

    There have been all sorts of folks claiming to have had revelations, visitations and supernatural experiences throughout history. Having been raised Catholic, I was treated to numerous stories of these things including those that build a constituency with a devotion to the object of the vision. These visionaries and those devoted to the vision invest themselves totally in the vision. Here's the differences however, especially in the Catholic visionaries. They get the nature of God and the person and work of Jesus Christ right. Some of these folks pray their rosary and implore Mary to take their requests to Jesus for an answer to their prayer, this isn't Biblical of course, but at least they're heading towards Jesus; the real Jesus.
    Mormons are lost because they don't know God, they don't know Jesus, they don't know the Holy Spirit and they reject God's plan of salvation. It's important to get your doctrine right, based on the Word of God and not some aberrant revelation or vision someone might claim to have. In order to "get" the Bible, a person needs to use solid Biblical exegesis and interpretation and not some transitory feelings and impressions.

  22. wyomingwilly says:

    dltayman, you still seem to be convinced that a sincere person can't possibly be sincerely wrong on
    important issues. Strange how a sincere Mormon apostle could be so wrong on such an important
    issue [ see the example I cited ] and sincere people paid for his error with their lives. In a way this
    mirrors the situation of so many sincere LDS today— accepting the counsel of their leaders as the
    to be the truth of God , when in fact it is'nt.This can be spiritually damaging. As for your comment on
    my " passing judgment "on those who don't believe like I do , I think your prophets were there first !
    Brigham Young taught that if a person denied that Joseph Smith was a prophet sent by God, then
    that person was an anti-christ ! I do'nt believe Mormons are lying when they tell me that they are
    following Jesus. But if it is the same Jesus that is revealed in the teachings of Mormon prophets
    and apostles then that places a sincere LDS in a serious position [ 2 Cor.11:4 ] Same with the
    God revealed in Mormon doctrine. Paul and John both were concerned about sincere people who
    followed Jesus being seduced [ 1 Jn.2:26 ] into accepting a newer version of Jesus ,espoused by
    false teachers. [ Ac ts 20:30-31 ]. For LDS to dismiss their prophets and to seek God thru His word
    can be a life changing experience. [cont…]

  23. wyomingwilly says:

    [ cont.] respectfully, but I'll have to go above you in order to see what Mormon doctrine says.
    A pamphlet published by your Church , " The Plan of Salvation ", states: " Sincerity of belief
    does not in any way establish the correctness of a principle…" I believe God meets LDS
    right where they start their journey into Mormonism. But since all of us are required to "examine"
    our beliefs to make sure we're in a safe place [ Acts 17:11, 2Cor.13:5 ] since anyone's heart can
    be misled by even moral well intended spiritual leaders, sooner or later all LDS must make a
    decision what authority to follow— either Mormon prophets/apostles or God's Word. Mormon
    leaders have said that LDS can put confidence in their counsel, that they interpret the mind and
    will of God. So either you embrace the Creator as only a man who never was Almighty God from
    eternity, or you bow before the God revealed from Gen. to Rev. . all the moral living can't make up
    for following the wrong God.

  24. jackg says:

    The command to be perfect as God is perfect is in the context of loving your enemies.

  25. wyomingwilly says:

    Set Free, concerning John 17: 3, I think we've missed something. Taking the words of Jesus Himself, here
    is fine but we must not forget that the" living " prophet gives the Word of the Lord for all today: " …..His Words
    have an even more immediate importance than those of the dead prophets". ( Conf. report 10/1963 ).
    The "living prophet" said in 1844 ( which I'm sure is still "truth" today ) concerning how the words in
    John 17:3 should read "… Here then, is eternal life — to know the only wise and true God, AND YOU HAVE
    GOT TO LEARN HOW TO BE GODS YOURSELVES, and to be Kings and Priests to God, THE SAME AS
    ALL GODS HAVE DONE BEFORE YOU…." ( Joseph Smith ). So I guess we've missed it all this time !
    I think that Jesus had it right .

  26. setfreebyjc says:

    thanks melo, i had forgotten about that. lol

  27. gpark5 says:

    dltayman says, 'It saddens me that there are those who believe God who would say, "You may have sincerely thought all your life that you were serving me, and I know you sincerely believe you received a Remission of Sins through what you thought was accepting and fully submitting yourself to Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but…. you also believed X about me, and X is not true. You also believed Y and Z about Jesus, and that's just silly. Your acceptance of Jesus is therefore not valid, you are not justified, and, because of my Incomprehensible Eternal Love, I will toss you to burn in the depths of hell. I created you, but because you were confused, and were mistaken about what I or may not may have been doing before the Bible started, I don't know you."

    At least Mormons believe that all those confused and with mistaken conceptions (of which I, will agree, includes many Mormons themselves) will all have a gracious and clear and undeniable opportunity to be taught and understand a fullness of God's Truth, and to accept it or reject it with a full knowledge, before the Judgement…'

    Let him who glories glory in this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth, for in these I delight says the LORD – Jeremiah 9:23 and 24 (also see I Corinthians 1:30 and 31). You have to know God. You have to know that the same God who sent fire to devour the sons of Aaron (Nadab and Abihu), because they "offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them" (Leviticus 10:1) is the same God Who became flesh and dwelt among us and gave Himself for us. God is not a God of judgment OR of Grace. He is a God of judgment AND of Grace. The law was used as a schoolmaster to show us how far we were/are from being able to meet God's standard of Holiness. Galatians 3:23-25, NKJV, 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    In this dispensation, we have the wonderful and undeserved Grace of God. The LORD will return on His timetable, however, to judge the world, and the Great Commission instructs us to help people get ready!

    As far as people being offered "a gracious and clear and undeniable opportunity to be taught and understand a fullness of God's Truth," you've been offered that chance in the Word of God, the Holy Bible. How many people who spend their lives fighting the truth of the Bible, questioning the accuracy of its translation, questioning what may have been left out of it because of a religious conspiracy that they're sure exists yet for which they have no proof, will claim at the judgment that they had no "gracious and clear and undeniable opportunity to be taught and understand a fullness of God's Truth?"

    There are those who would deny God's eternal perfection and power, who would try to make Him just a former man a little further along in the 'progression' than themselves.

    They are like those in Galatians 4:8, of whom Paul said: 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

  28. gpark5 says:

    continued

    Then, once the Galatians had experienced the wonderful opportunity to know God, they began to listen to those who would, again, lead them into bondage: But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Galatians 4:9-11

    The Galatians were actually prideful enough to believe that God needed their help to save them, and that they were capable of providing that help, instead of their glory being in Christ (I Corinthians 1:30-31; Romans 15:17) and in the Cross (Galatians 6:14).

    Joseph Smith and his sucessors have led generations of people into an even worse form of bondage, Smith's followers having lost sight, even, of who God is and are back in the position of worshipping gods (or 'a god' for those who make the monolatry argument).

    The people on this site are trying to lead people back to the way of Grace through Faith – away from a lack of understanding of Who God is and TOWARD an understanding of Who God is AND what He has done to bring us back to Himself.

    James 5:19-20 – 19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

    After the Christians who contribute to this site (called by God to plead with you, pray for you; and, I am quite sure in some cases, to weep over you) have called you to search the Word; after they have provided quotes from very early church fathers, a study of which will clearly show that the doctrines taught by Joseph Smith and his successors have drifted further and further from the true meaning of the Bible (and many are just vain imaginations manufactured out of whole cloth); after you have made your decision whether to follow God's Word or to follow the attempts of Joseph Smith and his successors to add to, subtract from, malign the inspiration of, and change the meaning of God's Word, God will judge. The people here will not judge you, and would, I am sure, be horrified at the thought of being tasked with that. They are trying so hard to turn you back to God! Sometimes agreeing with, or compromising with, a person is the least loving thing one can do!

    Colossians 2:13-23 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. 20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations — 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using — according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

    Over and over and over Mormons (and many others) get belief backwards. True belief (accepting Christ for Who HE says He is)leads to a relationship with Christ which results in works. Works do not result in anything lasting unless they spring from that relationship with Christ. God will reward those who are in relationship with Him for their works, but He will SAVE the true believer without the 'help' of his/her works.

  29. Jeff B says:

    That command uses the greek word Teleios. Look up that word in a Greek Lexicon (google it). You will find that it's not a command to be sinless. I went through this on another thread, twice. It doesn't mean you can't ever be without fault. Here is a good resource that explains it well: http://www.careydillinger.com/sermons/teleios.pdf

  30. GoodWill says:

    This was a very respectful, well-done video on contemporary Mormon beliefs regarding Deity.

    However, a few misconceptions linger, causing unnecessary confusion and conflict.

    Firstly, the statement that "God is one" or "We have but one God" is very much like "We have but one Government." God — particularly God known as Elohim — is a consortium of Divine Beings who said "Let there be light" and "Let us make man in Our image, in our likeness, male and female." Elohim is one in purpose, but not in substance.

    Secondly, the Gods ("Elohim") share all things in common. Their glory is one. To be exalted — "to sit with me (the Son) on my throne, even as I (the Son) have overcome and am sat with my Father in His throne" — is to become one with the Divine Collective ("Elohim"). God the Father NEVER was a sinner (in His capacity as God), for God never sins. That is the nature of godliness.

    Thirdly, Jesus Christ followed His Father's example in every way. At least ONE Divine Being in eternity has endured and lived a perfect life, setting a perfect example for Jesus to follow. That particular Being, whom Jesus called "My Father", indeed, never sinned in His mortal (or any other) life.

    Fourthly, ALL who have been washed and cleansed by the power of the Son (which "Son" has existed from all eternity to all eternity) and who achieve and enjoy exaltation with the Father ("Elohim") and the Son ("Jehovah"), partake of that same sinless, perfect glory. They become perfect, white as snow: "even as I, or my Father in heaven is perfect".

    The question asked in the video really suffers from an ambiguous antecedent: Who is "the Father" referred to? One must understand that Elohim (or "the Gods") is EVERY exalted creature serving in that capacity as "God". The Gods are One. Or, in other words, "Elohim is One God". Then one understands what Jesus meant when He said: "I go to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" and when He said, "I said 'Ye are gods, and children of the Most High'".

    There is only one, perfect, holy Divine: The Father. This we worship. Likewise, the Son, who is "the express image of His person". To know One is to know the Other.

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