How Many Mormon Gods for Us?

Last week on her blog, Religion Dispatches, Joanna Brooks wrote,

“It’s a little-known fact: according to Mormon tradition, God is not an old man but rather a male-female couple: a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother.”

Ms. Brooks was referring to a long-standing but little-spoken-of Mormon doctrine that was recently highlighted in a BYU Studies journal. “A Mother There”: A Survey of Historical Teachings about Mother in Heaven by David Paulsen and Martin Pulido (BYU Studies 50, no. 1, 2011; pdf) is a fascinating overview of Mormon teachings on a Heavenly Mother.

Though the authors state, “nothing has been authoritatively revealed about Heavenly Mother” (73), the 28-page paper (that was first presented at BYU Studies 50th Anniversary Symposium) reveals plenty of what LDS authorities have said about her.

“…we have gathered an illuminating collection of thoughts about Mother in Heaven, her roles, her significance, and her character as given by prophets, Apostles, Church authorities, and other leaders since the restoration of the gospel. And although we do not have authoritative revelation on the specific roles and nature of Heavenly Mother, Church leaders have extrapolated much about her from our understanding of the plan of salvation, the nature of godhood, and the qualities of motherhood.” (76)

The authors have compiled and presented LDS teachings spanning 165 years that portray Mormonism’s Heavenly Mother as: a divine person; a procreator with Heavenly Father; Heavenly Father’s wife; a parent concerned with and involved in our pre-mortal, mortal, and post-mortal probations; a co-creator of worlds; and a coframer of the plan of salvation. Indeed, she is presented as a God.

“Several Church leaders have affirmed that Heavenly Mother is a fully divine person and have used reverential titles such as ‘Mother God,’ ‘God Mother,’ ‘God the Mother,’ ‘God their Eternal Mother,’ and ‘Eternal Mother’ in referring to her. Elder John A. Widtsoe (Quorum of the Twelve, March 17, 1921–November 29, 1952) wrote: ‘The glorious vision of life hereafter . . . is given radiant warmth by the thought that . . . [we have] a mother who possesses the attributes of Godhood.’ This is echoed by Elder James E. Talmage (Quorum of the Twelve, December 8, 1911–July 27, 1933): ‘We . . . [are] literally the sons and daughters of divine parents, the spiritual progeny of God our Eternal Father, and of our God Mother.’ Furthermore, President Brigham Young (President of the Church, December 27, 1947–August 29, 1877) taught that ‘we were created . . . in the image of our father and our mother, the image of our God,’ indicating that calling Heavenly Mother ‘God’ is consistent with the biblical account of the creation of both ‘male and female’ being in ‘the image of God’ (Gen. 1:26–27). Sister Susa Young Gates urged that ‘the divine Mother, side by side with the divine Father, [has] the equal sharing of equal rights, privileges and responsibilities.’” (78)

The authors note that “at least one” Mormon leader has objected to the idea of Heavenly Mother as a God. George Q. Cannon warned against Latter-day Saints worshipping Heavenly Mother, reminding Mormons that Joseph Smith never indicated that she is “part of the Godhead.” Yet what are we to conclude when Mormon prophets, apostles, and others, have taught that Heavenly Father could not be God without Heavenly Mother? Paulsen and Pulido point out,

“As there can be no spirit children without her, presumably there would be no Son without her and perhaps no Holy Ghost—no Heavenly Mother, perhaps no Trinity. It should be no surprise, then, that most Mormon leaders could not understand how Father or Mother could be divine alone. For either to be fully God, each must have a partner with whom to share the power of endless lives.” (79)

The authors quote a teaching of nineteenth-century LDS Apostle Erastus Snow that confirms this idea:

“‘What,’ says one, ‘do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of man and woman?’ Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that God has ever said about himself . . . I must believe that deity consists of man and woman. . . .

“There can be no God except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, or ever will be a God in any other way.”

“We may never hope to attain unto the eternal power and the Godhead upon any other principle . . . this Godhead composing two parts, male and female.” (79, ellipses in the original)

Furthermore, Paulsen and Pulido say that Snow’s doctrine of a two-part male/female Godhead has been “reaffirmed” by four more LDS apostles during the twentieth century (i.e., Hugh Brown, James Talmage, Melvin Ballard and Bruce McConkie).

All of this raises the question: Just how many divine beings are there in the Mormon Godhead? Two (Father and Mother)? Three (Father, Son and Holy Ghost)? Four (Father, Mother, Son and Holy Ghost)? I wonder if anyone knows.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.

This entry was posted in God the Father, Nature of God and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

48 Responses to How Many Mormon Gods for Us?

  1. Kate says:

    I don't think I ever heard about Heavenly Mother at church, but I remember having conversations about her with some home teachers a few times. I was told that we just don't talk about her much because she is so sacred and Heavenly Father wants to protect her. I certainly didn't think in depth about her. This article is a real eye opener for me. I guess Mormonism would have to teach about her in this way. One thing that stands out to me is, if she is part of the Godhead, are we supposed to pray to her too? How confusing. I was curious about how they have come up with this using the scriptures, I found that they claim it's in Proverbs 1:20-33 and Proverbs 8. From what I'm reading, they are claiming that the word "wisdom" in those scriptures is Heavenly Mother. That seems to me to be quite a stretch. It never ceases to amaze me how Mormon leaders can take one verse or even one word from the Bible and create a whole doctrine around it.

  2. 4fivesolas says:

    One question I have is what about the other wives – wouldn't there be MANY heavenly mothers?? Isn't that the rationale behind polygamy as explained by Smith/Young? Hypothetically, everyone posting comments here on Mormon Coffee could have a differnent Heavenly Mother – then the Mormon Godhead would be expanded to include all those goddesses. The idea of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother as thought up by the Mormon prophets is confusing and non-Scriptural. Joseph Smith restored/converted to a religion of sorts, it just is not Christianity.

  3. Kate says:

    4fivesolas,

    I never thought about this. So how does one know who their heavenly mother is? This is just too crazy for words.

  4. Mike Thomas says:

    I find it interesting that Kate's home teachers "explained" that Heavenly Mother is kept from us knowing her because she is "sacred." This tends to be a catch-all category into which Mormons place anything and everything they can't explain or talk about. The next time a Mormon accuses you of hiding behind the word mystery when talking about the Trinity remember that the Mormon equivalent is "sacred."

  5. Kullervo says:

    The pagans have taken notice: http://wildhunt.org/blog/2011/05/unleash-the-houn

  6. jackg says:

    Remember the hymn, "O My Father"? "Reason tells me I've a mother there." That used to be one of my favorite hymns, and it is very sentimental to think of God in human terms like that, but it just isn't biblical. We didn't talk about her much in church for all the reasons you stated. Isn't it funny that such a non-biblical teaching is accepted but not really embraced? But, that's Mormonism for you.

    Blessings….

  7. falcon says:

    See this is where revelation becomes the spiritual playground for the immature, uninformed and uneducated. And the latter descriptor "uneducated" is the selling point. Just be as dumb as a box of rocks and depend on something as undefined as "revelation". Put your money down folks, anybody can play the game of revelation and there are no losers everybody wins, so to speak. The only problem is that while the revelation game can make someone feel empowered and super spiritual, it's just vapor. There's nothing of substance. There is certainly no Biblical support for this nonsense but it's like spiritual junk food for the emaciated Mormon. It tastes good, gives a sugar high, but there's no real spiritual nourishment………..and it rots your teeth.

  8. wyomingwilly says:

    Kate, this foundation doctrine of Mormonism is a classic example of why people should dismiss
    Mormon prophets and apostles as authority figures over their lives. The confusion exhibited by these
    spiritual leaders concerning aspects of this doctrine is apparent to all to see. When LDS women
    learn that they have a Heavenly mother they began to ask some very serious questions. Mormon
    women are no doubt feeling short changed by the counsel from their leaders concerning their
    relationship with HM . Imagine as a LDS woman needing to feel a connection to your HM and
    wanting to pour your heart out to Her, and yet communicating with Her, even to say "thank you",
    is deemed inapropriate christian behavior by the Men who sit at at the top of the Mormon Church.
    Their counsel is clear— no prayer to Heavenly mother !

  9. wyomingwilly says:

    Mike, good point. Think about it, not only is Heavenly mother kept from her children , but Her
    children are kept from a relationship with Her ! All courtesy of the spiritual guidance from
    Mormon prophets and apostles. The precious Mormon people deserve more reliable
    spiritual guides— Matt 15:14.

    ww

  10. wyomingwilly says:

    Family values ?

    We just celebrated Mother's Day. My mother is still alive, I'm blessed in that if i jump over the fence
    and walk thru the field she's only 100 yards away. Once again I get to do the right thing and tell her
    how much I love and appreciate her. What do Mormons do for their Heavenly Mother ? I read in the
    church manual, " True to the Faith", that Mormons are encouraged to show their appreciation to their
    Heavenly Father by telling Him in prayer that they're grateful for His place in their lives. This is the right
    and proper thing to do. Yet , the counsel from Mormon leadership to faithful LDS is that such behavior
    towards Heavenly mother is frowned upon, it is not appropriate . Telling your very own Heavenly Mother
    how much you appreciate Her is not decent behavior ? Wow ! May our LDS friends return to the
    Bible as their source for spiritual guidance, and dismiss the doctrinal offerings of modern day prophets.

  11. wyomingwilly says:

    Superseding what dead prophets, Biblical prophets, taught about important spiritual truths,
    especially about the Creator Himself, is a standard claim of the Mormon church. Fresh and
    new light from God thru a "living" prophet. The dead prophets , Biblical prophets, describe
    Jehovah, the Lord God Almighty, as the framer and Maker of this earth and all on it. Mormon
    prophet Brigham Young taught over the pulpit the Mormon version of line upon line when he
    revealed: " Father Adam came here and then they brought his wife…..He was the first man
    on the earth, and it's framer and maker. " So important was this new light from God that Young
    incorporated into the Mormon Temple ceremony another line of truth which was that Adam,
    as Michael was one member of a three God creator team, the Mormon Temple trinity of Elohim
    Jehovah and Michael. However, True Christians choose to stick with the truth of Neh 9:6

  12. falcon says:

    It's incredible what a person can do when they are given free reign to develop whatever concept of God they want and claim that a god was instrumental in their thinking. The Bible can be ignored or twisted to such an extent that almost any doctrine, of god or anything else for that matter, can be hatched. All it really takes to be successful is to find some dupes who are willing to accept the "prophets" utterances" with little or no thought to if this (prophet) actually has any truth or is just in free flow mode.
    Mormons out-source their thinking to men they suppose are hearing from God. An individual Mormon joins in the "prophet's" folly by affirming in their own hearts that the proclamations are indeed true. A Mormon really has no other choice but to affirm since it is Mormon dogma to accept the current prophet as the oracle of the Mormon god. So they jump on board in order to be part of the Mormon in-crowd.
    So there we go, Mormons have a goddess, or many of them, to occupy part of the Mormon godhead. And I say why not? Mormonism is so convoluted that the more out in left field a doctrine is, the better. It means they are more spiritual?

  13. wyomingwilly says:

    falcon, I find it incredible that Mormon leaders, who are said to provide LDS with the proper
    interpretation and clarification of the scriptures, could vear off so far from what the scriptures
    [even their own scriptures] proclaim about God. The topic of this thread is a case in point.
    Sixth prophet of the Mormon church, Joseph F. Smith, while stating that the Holy Ghost is a
    member of the Godhead, turns around and states something that no true prophet could say:
    " …we might ascend above all things and become like our Father,Mother, and Elder Brother,
    almighty and eternal! " [ from a former Church manual ]

    Gods,Goddesses, with Jesus/Jehovah merely being one among them .This is the Biblical message ?
    May God help the Mormon people to do the right thing and honor Him by dismissing their prophets.

  14. Kate says:

    The thing that I keep reminding myself of is the fact that most Mormons I know, don't know all of this stuff. It's never discussed and the LDS leadership is not going to announce it in church or make any "official" statements about it. Until they do, Mormons who actually read can just go on saying that it's someone's opinion. I"ve said before, if I bring up things about Mormonism that I've uncovered (which are true) they think I'm lying. Mormons will never research these things out for themselves, they just trust in Thomas Monson never to lead them astray. You guys are way ahead of them in the information game. It's so sad and frustrating! I'm also tired of being told by Mormon family that I've just lost my faith is all. They are exactly right, I've lost my faith in Mormon leaders and put my whole faith in Christ. I've even said this. It doesn't make a difference. I don't need to "belong" to a group to feel good about myself. I don't need to feel spiritually superior to anyone else or judge others "with a righteous judgment" to live a Christ centered life. This part has really been bothering me lately. The whole superiority thing that is all around me. Where is the Christ like love??? In fact, where is Christ with these people?

  15. wyomingwilly says:

    The claims of providing trustworthy spiritual counsel is a main stay by Mormon leaders. This doctrine
    of a Goddess who is their Heavenly mother is a good example of why LDS should reject their
    authority as teachers. They've departed from the scriptures — 2 Jn. 1:9 . Stressing how LDS should
    treat their earthly parents and their Heavenly Father is suddenly changed when the topic of their Heavenly
    Mother is taught. It enlightening to observe how this is played out in "official " church publications .
    I looked at one such manual , "Young Women manual 1 " I'll list some statements with my comments
    in brackets. [ part 1]

  16. wyomingwilly says:

    [part2]
    From the Church manual " Young Women 1" : " Explain that learning to honor and obey our
    earthly parents helps us have a better relationship with them. It can also prepare us to more
    fully love and obey our Father in heaven." [ What about to more fully love your Mother in heaven?
    Should'nt LDS treat their HM like they do their earthly mother? So when was the last time you
    told your HM how much you love her? Careful! your leaders have counseled against prayer! ]
    – " to improve my relationship with my parents I will: # 7 = "express my appreciation and thanks."
    [ Are LDS willing to improve their relationship with their HM ? Would this start by talking with Her? ]
    From Gospel Principles ( 2009) we read, " We should pray to express love to our Heavenly Father
    and feel closer to Him." [ What about HM ? Do LDS see how it's proper behavior to express
    their love to HM through prayer? LDS do love their HM, right ? ] [ part 2 ]

  17. wyomingwilly says:

    [ part3 ]
    We can see how being submissive to Mormon prophets could tend to cause stress in many LDS
    women. Many of these women are feeling short-changed. The fear of offending God by rejecting
    the counsel of their leaders has caused many LDS to suffer in silence. Caught in a counterfeit
    christian church, they don't know of a better way. Some testimonies complied by author Martha
    Pierce : " One woman writes, " the church teaches us to call on Father only. Consequently, I have
    not made any room at all for Her in my life. I don't feel permission to pray to Her—like it might be
    blasphemy .' Another woman writes, I know a relationship with Her would greatly benefit my life.
    It's dawning on me that a goddess exists who cares about me…and I have shut her off from my
    life. Another woman writes: The church teaches that mothers are and should be the primary
    nurturers of their children, but the Heavenly mother is kept exiled from her children. "

    We can see the plight of thinking Mormon woman . This is the confusion that results when false
    prophets introduce false teachings. For this to be a foundation doctrine of Mormonism and yet
    proceed to counsel about it as they do is truely sad. Jer.23:16 describes Mormon prophets aptly.
    For LDS the stakes are high. Please return to the Bible as your source of spiritual guidance,
    otherwise you will pay a high price : Isa.9:16, Matt.15:14 . May God give you the strength to dismiss
    your leaders as authorities in your life.

  18. Brian says:

    Good insights you've shared, Kate.

    It seems like the leadership of this group is in a bind. They don't want to flatly deny certain things early LDS leaders taught. And they don't want to hold them up either, as this would damage the image they are trying to foster.

    As to feelings of spiritual superiority, that's often a fruit of legalism; the belief one can commend oneself to God on the basis of what one does. This tends to breed self-righteousness. Or, if one feels that one has not measured up, it breeds feelings of guilt.

    From books I have read, lots of LDS people are very unhappy, as they realize they do not measure up. Though LDS people do not necessarily look like victims, they are.

  19. setfreebyJC says:

    It's so easy to see,

    that the LDS are truly following

    "elohim"

    many fictional gods

    as opposed to

    Yahweh – the one true God

  20. Jeffrey Royal says:

    This mockumentary of Mormonism's belief system is offensive. Is being based on the Bible anymore objectively based than being based on prophets claiming to be like those in the Bible? Both seem to be improvable claims based on faith.

  21. falcon says:

    OK Jeffery,
    What's your point? I don't dig drive-by commentators that don't take the time to explain their position. I'll tell you what I find offensive, it's people who mock god by claiming that there are millions, perhaps billions of gods; that men can become gods and that the god they worship has many wives with whom he procreates spirit children into eternity. I find it totally offensive that one of the Mormon prophets proclaimed that the Mormon god was really Adam and in addition to this he, the Mormon god, had actual physical sex with Mary thus conceiving Jesus. It's not faith that claims prophets like this, it's inane stupidity and a total lack of any sort of knowledge of the Bible and the doctrine of the nature of God. It's just idle speculation coupled with emotions that gives birth to and maintains aberrant belief systems.
    I would suggest you get off your high horse and actually do some in depth study of the topic at hand rather than simply throw out charges of mockery.

  22. wyomingwilly says:

    Jeffrey, are you directing this statement to any specific person here ? I would like to know what
    you see here that constitutes mockery. I personally have not mocked any Mormon. We are told
    to test anyone who claims to be a prophet. Brigham Young even asks that the teachings of
    Mormonism be examined to see if they are consistent with the Bible . We contend that some
    vital teachings of Mormon prophets and apostles are not . Mormons would disagree with this.
    We can both ask questions of each other, hopefully with respect . The penalty, according to the
    Bible, for following a false prophet is nothing to take lightly, we merely want the Mormon people
    to remember that. The Mormon people are decent people, but good, decent people can be misled.
    ww

  23. Jeffrey Royal says:

    I don't understand how God "is mocked" (what is this supposed to mean in relation to God?) by people believing there are trillions, zillions, etc. of gods, in a multitude variety of relationships. You are much too easily offended by a belief system! A god that cares about being mocked is not much of a god. And what do you mean by "doctrine of the nature of God"? So Mormons don't care about keeping their idea of God completely contained in the Bible (I imagine they have some biblical beliefs, after all). They believe in a revelatory method of learning about God through their leaders and their personal experiences. I think this is far from "inane stupidity," and don't see it as being any less objectively based than a faith that bases itself on a book of scripture. That you claim it is "inanely stupid" says much about your approach to Mormons and other faiths, which don't accept what you do. They operate from a different framework, and for you to judge them from yours is profitless. I don't see any doctrine of God laid out like any sort of creed in the Bible, and the various arguments supposedly disclosing God's nature have notoriously failed to do so (ontological, cosmological, teleological). These doctrines of God seem far more based on tradition and culture. So I don't think "inane stupidity" belongs in any of these discussions.

  24. falcon says:

    I thought this would be a good place for this.
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/05/19/rapture-move

    I guess, according to this prophet, the rapture will be happening on Saturday. That would be good news in a way because then we could really sort out who is born again and who isn't. It would also satisfy a lot of major doctrinal issues especially those dealing with the nature of God.

    I don't think that Mormons, with their view of the nature of God, are born again. According to the article above, Mormons even want to make a mother-goddess part of the Godhead. And then there is the Mormon doctrine of the Son. You can't be born again if you have the wrong Jesus. It just won't work because you are depending on a false Christ to save you.

    There is One God, three persons, that's it. No goddesses or humans that think they're going to morph into a god, need apply.
    If my eternal destiny depended on it, and it does, I'd spend some serious study time on the doctrine of the nature of God as articulated by the orthodox Christian church. I get a kick out of Mormons when they say that the doctrine of the nature of God was invented at the Council of Nicea as dictated by the Emperor. Man, talk about a false view of history. The historical record is clear. We have writings going back to the earliest times of the Church that clearly show what the Church Fathers believed and taught about the nature of God. There's no secret here nor is it cluttered.
    Mormons need to find out who God is. That's an excellent place to start on a journey of faith. Conjuring up doctrines and inventing preposterous claims of who God is is inexcusable given the rich documented history of the orthodox Christian church.
    Ah but it's a lot more fun for cultists to opine and spin and get all full of themselves with their vain imaginations.

  25. Kate says:

    I'm wondering if Jeffery is a Mormon. Just like I wondered if Lee is a Mormon. Is this what Mormons do? Just pop in and throw out one inane comment and not explain why they feel this way? How cowardly. How can non Mormons take them seriously? What I find offensive Jeffery is that I was taught for 38 years that Christ is my spirit brother and also the spirit brother of Satan. That is not who Christ is. So would you say that I had been deceived by lies? Now if Mormons want to trust a prophet and believe this from the BoA, then fine, but the problem is Jeffery, they claim to be the ONE AND ONLY TRUE ORIGINAL CHRISTIANITY. Christianity is Bible based. If Mormons would stop claiming to be Christians and stop claiming that Christianity was changed in the first three centuries A.D. then blogs like this wouldn't even exist. No one would care. What is wrong with being a plain ol' Mormon? Why do they have to trash the Bible and Christianity? All they have to do is ditch the Bible and claim to be a totally different religion, not affiliated with Christianity. I am also offended by the same things falcon mentioned. Adam/God doctrine, Virgin Mary, Blood Atonement, Racism towards anyone not with white skin, the lies about the American Indians, The BoM, and the BoA, God was once a man, Masonic Temple rituals, Polygamy, just to name a few. The list is long! If you take the time to thoroughly research all of these topics, you may find them extremely "offensive" as well.

  26. The_Hammer says:

    Jeffery, you are not helping out the LDS one bit when you and others like Lee come here, make broad statements with out evidence and run away. On the one hand I am glad you guys do because the people who are not Mormons, but are thinking about joining read things by you guys, like Lee for example. They see you accuse and cannot back it up with evidence, then it just gives us who claim you do these things more credibility that you guys lie just like you first Prophet JS and your guy's father before him, Lucifer.

  27. falcon says:

    I don't pretend, of course, to able to look into someone's soul and determine if they are born again by the Spirit of God through saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. However I can look at what a religion teaches, read what their leaders/prophets have written and in some instances hear what the rank-and-file members say and get a pretty accurate idea if the criteria for born again status and thus eternal life is being met.
    Sorry Mormons, but by any objective measure, this standard is not being met in Mormonism. Mormonism not only has a different God the Father but a different Jesus and a two part being they refer to as the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit. Now we throw a mother god/goddess into the mix.
    This isn't even good heresy!

  28. clyde says:

    I find it interesting that you once belonged to the true church of God on earth- the Catholic church. I also find it interesting that you do not mind if the secular government decides that the church needs to determine the true nature of God. My mind is completely boggled. Are you going to rejoin the catholic church? It might be good for you. I think it is interesting that people might be wrong-including me- and still fanaticly stick to what they consider truth. There are some ideas such as ,Mary mother of God and Adam-God, that people use to knock people out of their faith. At times it works at other times people just ignore them and stay with their religion.

  29. falcon says:

    Jeffery Buddy here's the problem, Mormonism claims to be the "restoration" of the original Gospel. They claim that after the death of the apostles the true Gospel was lost. In fact they even claim that a grand conspiracy transpired and Mormonism was left out of the Bible. This is hogwash.
    Mormonism was founded by a guy who claimed that he had a magic rock that would allow him to look into the ground and see buried treasure. He then used this magic rock which he placed in his hat and then shoved his face (into the hat) and received secret written messages from off of some golden plates he found in the ground.
    Jeffery, this IS inane and stupid!
    You can argue with me if you like as to whether Christianity is true or not, but please don't try to equate the man with the magic rock's claim to have restored the lost Gospel. As Christians it is our duty to defend the faith. If Mormonism wants to be some separate renegade religious sect, fine with me. But don't claim that they are the original revelation restored.

  30. setfreebyJC says:

    Jeffrey,
    Are you unaware of the evidential nature of the Bible, as opposed to the Book of Mormon? If you're seriously asking, there are a lot of good resources to help you see that the two are completely different. The Bible is backed up philosophically, scientifically, historically, etc. The Book of Mormon is not backed in any way. May I suggest, as one terrific resource, listening to Dr. William Lane Craig's podcasts at ReasonableFaith.org? TERRIFIC material that may help you with your research. (http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/PageServer?pagename=podcasting_main)

  31. Kate says:

    "So Mormons don't care about keeping their idea of God completely contained in the Bible"

    Bingo! Exactly! If they aren't going to believe what God says about himself in the Bible then why use it? Stop claiming a belief in the Bible at all and go with all the made up stuff of Mormon leaders (oh wait, they already do that). Stop calling yourselves Christians and stop claiming that Mormonism is the true Christianity.

  32. falcon says:

    We really don't have to go any further with Mormons then a discussion of the nature of God. We Christians base our doctrine of the nature of God on the Biblical text. Who God is emerges from the pages of His revelation. Some committee didn't sit down and decide who God is. God tells us who He is. It is the job of the Church to hold fast to and defend the standard of revelation that the Holy Spirit has revealed to God's anointed prophets.
    Many come claiming that they are prophets and that they have a new revelation. There is no need for a new revelation. God from eternity past has revealed Himself to His chosen oracles. Mormons are stuck because they have a distorted picture of who God is, who a prophet is, and what revelation is. Joseph Smith was clever enough to borrow a few salient points from the revivalism that was prevalent during his time. One such feature was the "burning in the bosom" that those having an encounter with God would describe. Being able to discern what is a bonifide reaction to a move of the Spirit and what is merely psychological manipulation takes a measure of discernment and also a knowledge of the Word of God.
    Joseph Smith started out fairly conventional in regards to his view on the nature of God. But given his proclivity for creative imagination he soon took a nefarious journey which led him far from God's inspired revelation.
    A person cannot see or enter the kingdom of God without being spiritually regenerated. The only way that's going to happen is through knowing the living, One, Only God. Substituting an idol, no matter how devout, sincere, moral and earnest a person is, won't cause someone to experience this born again reality.

  33. wyomingwilly says:

    Clyde, again you simply ignore the question posed by the thread. The question Sharon posed
    for this thread deserves an answer as it's that important to your salvation. To embrace false doctrine
    on the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith is not a good thing Clyde. To submit to a
    prophet whose teachings deviates sharply from the Bible , like Brigham Young did with his
    "revealed" doctrine of Adam-God, is to place yourself in a awkward position with God. To be
    true to God and honor Him is to confess prophet Young to be a false prophet. May you see
    the urgency of this decision on your part and not try to by-pass it with the reasoning that since
    you live a moral lifestyle that it then does'nt matter. ww

  34. wyomingwilly says:

    Jeffrey, respectfully but was there a reason you elected to ignore the question posed by Sharon
    on this thread ? Do you understand that Mormon leaders have made it clear that their counsel,
    their spiritual guidance, is "pure unpolluted guidance" ? Perhaps you might consider whether
    this is true or not. Remember the spotlight is on the claims of Mormonism, not us. Is Mormonism
    the one true faith led by the one man that God has authorized as His mouthpiece today ?

    ww

  35. falcon says:

    Since the Mormon god or Mormonism for that matter can't be found in the Bible, the solution for the Mormon "prophets" was to declare the Bible in error. Now remember, Mormons do this while at the same time declaring that the Bible is one of their four standard works. What Mormons are unable to do however, is point to what in the Bible is inaccurate. Mormons also want us to believe that because the Bible was copied so many times over the centuries, that critical errors crept in. The problem with that of course is that we can compare copies and see if they (copies) are consistent with one another. The copies are consistent with one another and as an added bonus, any differences are very slight and don't affect any of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity.
    So this idea that some guy can call himself a prophet and proclaim secret and new knowledge is pure fantasy. The Church Fathers put up with this with the Gnostics. This group built their entire heresy around this concept of secret information. The Church Fathers got really frustrated dealing with these people because not only did they claim "secret" information, but they also twisted the Scriptures to make it say what they wanted it to say. The Church Fathers pointed to the tradition of the Church and the teachings of the Apostles that were passed on down through their disciples in order to bring authority to the Church teachings. Of course a false prophet will be impressed with little except what emanates from their own distorted minds.
    Anyway false prophets from the first century on have tried this Gnostic strategy in promoting their aberrant and heretical teachings. Mormonism is no different. Where do they get this idea of a mother goddess who they want to make part of the Mormon godhead? They conjured it up out of thin air.
    As long as people are going to base their faith on how something makes them feel, thinking that this is a sign from God, false prophets and false teachers will have easy pickins. It truly is the blind leading the blind but it full fills some sort of need in people and as long as they out source their spiritual life to others, the false prophets will always have an eager following.

  36. clyde says:

    WW
    I do not see everything that Brigham Young says is doctrine. I believe there is a God and He sent His Son to redeem us from the effects of the fall. We did pre-exist and do not remember anything of our past existence. We are here to gain a body and in a way prove ourselves. I believe God did this in His infinite wisdom-Thinking about it amazes me.
    “There can be no God except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, or ever will be a God in any other way.” I think this is a neat quote and deserves a lot of thought- thank you Sharon for finding this. The concept of God is more amazing than me or you can possibly comprehend. I see the ideas in this thread are interesting and unique but are not important to my salvatioin.

  37. falcon says:

    Not to impugn Marie Osmond, but I noticed recently that she had married for the third time. Actually she's been married to two men since her recent marriage was actually a re-marriage to husband number one. When Marie and husband number one originally split, husband number two adopted the child Marie had with husband number one.
    Along the way Marie and husband number two had some kids of their own and also adopted (I don't know how many). One of Marie's sons died tragically within the last year or so.
    When I read all of this I began to wonder how all of this works in Mormonism. Mormons who get married get sealed to one another, in the temple no less, and their children are also sealed to them at some point.
    Would someone please sort Marie's situation out for me?
    I'm guessing that Marie, as a good Mormon, has hopes of being a goddess one day. We know that Mormonism teaches that the Mormon god and many Mormon men will have more than one goddess wife. We also know that Mormonism teaches that the Mormon husband and god to be actually resurrects his sealed wife.
    So who do Marie and the kids belong to? Which of the husbands gets this brood and Marie for their planetary system?
    Actually I know because Jesus was asked about it and the answer is in the Bible. The Pharisees came to Jesus and asked about a woman married a couple of times because of the death of one (or more) of her husbands. Jesus said she didn't belong to/wasn't married to any of them because there is no marriage after death.
    This kind of disrupts the Mormon plans for gods and goddesses and eternal families. But this doesn't seem to hinder Mormons who believe that what one of their prophets says is superior to what Jesus says.
    I would think that even Mormons would see Jesus as some kind of authority, but alas he's just one of many gods in the Mormon system. He's an important one of course, but really His word can be usurped with new and updated revelation.
    Come-on folks. Mormonism is a false religious cult with so many goofy and fraudulent claims that only a truly deceived person would buy any of it. But then emotion trumps logic and evidence in the Mormon program.

  38. Kate says:

    falcon,

    Great questions. My guess is that she was married and sealed to hubby # 1 for time and all eternity, then along comes baby #1 and he is BIC(born in covenant) next is divorce and my guess is she received a temple divorce which nullifies all of the above. She marries hubby #2 (the first temple divorce could have happened just before this so that she is free to be sealed to #2) All of the other 7 children come along and are all sealed as one big happy eternal family to Marie and hubby #2. She divorces #2 (again she will have to have had a temple divorce) and remarries #1. She will be with #1 for eternity. Now all 8 of the children have been sealed for eternity to hubby #2 so I'm not sure what exactly they are doing about that. I would guess that it would be up to the adult children to decide where they want to be, which of course is even more confusing, because if any of them are sealed to a spouse for time and all eternity themselves then really what would it matter? I do know that for the younger children their biological father will have to give consent for them to be sealed to Marie and another man. Also, how could the children still be sealed to hubby #2 as an eternal family if Marie has left the eternal family? Are they just in limbo? I know families where a husband has died and the wife has married another man in the temple for time only. She is still sealed for eternity to her first husband. How is this not adultery?? Yet if it's the wife that dies, you guessed it, the man can have a new wife sealed to him. What I have heard and been taught is that we just don't worry about these things, god will take care of it all. Just have faith as a little child about this sort of thing.

  39. wyomingwilly says:

    clyde, you err my friend. Your reasoning is flawed. It does matter to your salvation if Brigham was a
    false prophet. The "priesthood authority " passed down through him was what you were baptized
    with right ? For a man to claim to be a prophet of God and then to proceed to introduce as rank a
    heresy as Brigham Young did with Adam-God means he lost the priesthood . How could a true
    prophet advocate the homage of any other God than the Great I AM ? Brigham Young was so
    confused with who God was. Many Mormons were still asking their leaders if it was ok to worship
    Adam well after the turn of the 20th century, all because of the position that Mormon prophets hold
    to Mormons . Brigham just could'nt be wrong on God ! Please Clyde, will you step back and consider the fix
    you're in ? By submitting to your prophet today you are harboring a false prophet in your life because
    the current prophet received his authority from those before him , this includes Brigham Young.
    You should consider Matt.15:14 and realize your future if you ignore the warning to dismiss the false
    prophet in your life.

  40. Violet says:

    I agree. 'is that we just don't worry about these things, God will take care of it all.'

    Would that not apply to baptism for the dead? Doesn't the bible read something about the dead taking care of the dead or something like that? In other words, we pray for the living because once someone is dead, they are absent from the body, present with the Lord. So the Lord takes care. Why all the mess about baptizing the the dead unless the religion is a cult? Burden the followers with tasks, guilt, duty until they forget that is why Jesus came, 'to make their burden light.' Its all Him. Not us.

  41. falcon says:

    Well you see this is where the Mormon prophet could be of some use. He could sit on some sort of big judgement seat in the SLC temple and people could come and present their petitions to him. He could then declare this or that and settle the whole matter for the petitioners.
    This is a win-win situation because the petitioning Mormon would get some sense of satisfaction receiving a decree and the prophet couldn't be found to be wrong because nobody would ever know since these are, so to speak, eternal matters. He could tell them all they will dwell in Disney Land and who could doubt it because after they're dead……….well you get my drift.
    Judgement seats could be placed in the various temples around the world and some sort of Mormon prophet could play the oracle and sit there and decide these matters. There could even be a revenue stream established here as the petitioners could give a "voluntary" offering as they entered the throne room of judgment.
    I don't know why some enterprising Mormon prophet hasn't thought of this.

  42. Violet says:

    Christians believe. God was first, then created everything else. God first, earth and/or 'matter' second. Mormons believe Everything was here first, then God was man, who progressed to become a God, second. Secondly, Mormons believe, when all arguments of history, fly me to a city in the book of mormon, archeology, dna, any evidence, dig up hill cummorah (sp?), manuscript evidence, any shred of evidence to prove j. smith true, 'I believe it because I FEEL its true. First sign of a cult, bible not to be trusted, Trust YOUR own feelings. Follow me. Not God. Lots of people followed Joseph Smith. They need to follow him to get to God. No one comes to the Father except through Me (and Joseph Smith?)

  43. wyomingwilly says:

    clyde, another thought for you to consider: It's your responsibility to find out who the God is that
    you're asking salvation from . Do you understand this ? You seem to ignore the elephant in the
    room. The elephant is'nt the busy schedule of practicing your religion that you make time for
    every day , a Mormon apostle definded the elephant here : " True and saving worship is found
    only among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead…." So please Clyde address
    the issue here. Mormon prophets and apostles have declared who God is. God the Mother is
    only one false teaching that your leaders have revealed, it is a " precept of men " [ 2Nephi 28:31]
    The warning to not "wrest " the scripture { Alma13:20 ; 2Tim. 2:15 ] is very clear. Mormon leaders
    are guilty of such error. You're either going to keep following them into judgement , or you'll do the
    right thing and be true God and His Word. All your endeavors that you accomplish every day can't
    make up for embracing a false God, [ remember what your apostle said.]

  44. wyomingwilly says:

    The Godhead ?

    Claiming that God had annointed him to be His mouthpiece, Joseph Smith boldly proclaimed that
    God had appeared to him and said that the churches around him were all teaching false concepts
    of God. Because the teachings of his new church were being misreprented by outsiders , prophet
    Smith decided to form a class where correct doctrine would be taught as a testimony of what tenets
    his church believed. In 1835 this class clearly described that the Christian Godhead consisted of
    " two personages" , the Father and the Son, and one non-personage — the Holy Spirit. This no doubt
    reflected Smith's claim that years before it was God who appeared to him, since he also said that the
    Father and the Son were present, then they constituted the Christian Godhead to prophet Smith.
    Later Smith changed his testimony on the number of Divine Persons in the Godhead to be in line
    with the other Churches around him. Did God correct Smith , or did some "abominable " non-LDS
    Christian ? Today , the religion Smith started agrees that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three Divine
    personages constitute the Godhead.While this one detour in false doctrine was corrected, Mormon
    leaders have added more with their claimed personal revelations or self annointed interpretations of
    the scriptures, namely the belief in a God the Mother. Perhaps one day soon Mormons will see this
    error changed as was the error of who constituted the Godhead by their founding prophet. Notice Jer 23:16

  45. Violet says:

    setfree. I clicked on your link and it shows an error. Was interested.

  46. wyomingwilly says:

    falcon, some interesting info from the Salt Lake messenger, issue #42

    " in a news letter published by the Sandy First Ward we find the following: ' ….brother Christiansen
    talked about new rulings concerning sealings for the dead. It is now possible for a woman that
    was married more than once to be sealed to all her husbands , providing that in life she had not
    been sealed to any of her husbands. The First Presidency of the church has ruled that rather than
    try to decide which husband a deceased woman should be sealed to, she can be sealed to all of
    them. However, only one sealing will be valid and accepted before God. God and the woman will
    decide which one of the sealings will be accepted on Judgement Day. "
    [ Tele-Ward, Sandy First ward 1-25-1976 vol.5 no.2, p.5 ] Sounds like a case of 2 Nephi 28:31 ,
    " the precepts of men " . [ part 1 ]

  47. wyomingwilly says:

    [ part 2 ]

    Another article from the same Salt lake City Messenger , citing the Church's , " General Handbook
    of Instructions " , Number 21, 1976, p.54 :
    " A wife whose husband is not endowed should not be given a recommend to receive her endowments
    …..A worthy man whose wife has not received her endowments may be given a recommend to receive
    his own endowments. "
    What does a teaching like this mean in light of the following statement by Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith:
    " We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we
    measure every man's doctrine. " Where is the scriptural teaching on this ? Another case of doctrine
    that is not sound [ 1Tim 4:6 ] , something false prophets/teachers produce under the guise of "spiritual
    authority " from God . Why have Mormon leaders run so far past the teachings of Jesus' apostles ?

  48. MichaelSonOfAdam says:

    So exactly where in scripture (from whence doctrine is derived) is there a mention of a “Heavenly Mother”? Unless it shows up in the canon of authorized scripture, it is naught but gossip and conjecture.
    Men speak of many things, but unless they are speaking as the Authorized Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the Church, they are just word of men.
    It’s nice to fantasize about many things, but when it comes to one’s eternal future, perhaps just sticking to the actual doctrine might be more beneficial than making up stuff to cluck about.

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