How often have we heard the claim that the growth of Mormonism proves it is a true religion? Honestly, too many times to count. It is insinuated that the LDS Church’s size and success in getting people to join its church are factors that are somehow supposed to lend credibility to the religion’s truthfulness. We are then asked, How could such a successful organization be wrong?
There are several problems to this rationale:
- The church’s rate of growth has been going down over the past two decades (see growth table below). In fact, in 1990, the church grew by more than 330,000 members, which is an incredible 4.45% rate of annual growth. At that time one social scientist even predicted that Mormonism could reach almost a quarter billion members by the 2040s. However, the LDS Church has not had this rate of success since that time. The rate hovered in the three percent growth rate range during the 1990s before going to under three percent in 2000 (and never again going over this three percent mark). In three of the six years since 2005, the rate of growth has been less than 2%. Last year, a total of almost 273,000 converts were added at a 1.93% growth rate. Despite the fact that the church is listed at 14.1 million members (compared with 7.6 million in 1990), its rate of growth has greatly suffered.
- Some might wonder how many missionaries there were in 1990. In fact, there were 43,651. Yet the number has been as high as 61,000 (2002) and, in 2010, was at 52,000. If we were to assume all converts came to the church through missionaries, then in 1990 there were 7.58 converts per missionary yet only 5.22 converts per missionary in 2010.
- Consider a comparable United States religion such as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses)—which is about half the size of the LDS Church. In 2010, the JWs grew by 294,000 converts (as compared to Mormonism’s 272,000 converts during the same time frame). This is a 4% increase from the previous year’s numbers, more than doubling the total percentage of growth as listed by the Mormon Church. It is doubtful that a Mormon would consider the Watchtower Society true just because the JW numbers are growing at this rate!
- As far as total numbers, the Mormon Church could never compete with Roman Catholicism, Islam, or Hinduism. Percentage-wise, the LDS Church is not even the fastest growing religion in the United States. In 2009, it grew by 1.71 percent to almost 5.9 million U.S. members; however, the Jehovah’s Witnesses grew 2 percent (to 1.1 million) while the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) grew 1.76 percent (to 1.05 million).
The next time a Mormon uses the “growth card,” suggest this is not a very good indicator for determining truth.
The above information was compiled from the May Ensign magazines, an official LDS Church publication that includes an annual church audit. The convert rate does not include members’ children who came of age and were baptized into the church.
Helen,
I clearly showed where you said we “speculate” that God was once a man. It’s there in black and white for all to see. I called you on that. You are now stating that yes in fact, God was once a man. The LDS church teaches that. Even though Gordon Hinkley in a public interview said that he didn’t know that they teach it…So yes I would imagine that would be confusing to some. Not to me though. I see it for what it is. As far as God not sinning? How can that be? If Joseph Smith said God was once a man just as we are now? You know the answer to this Helen. You are omitting. We all know what that means. Why aren’t you answering my question about the LDS missionaries teaching this to potential converts? You know they don’t. We also know what that means. Omission! If Mormons have to lie by omission and skirt around the questions about who God is, why would anyone want to follow their teachings? So tell me this, what did God do on earth? What kind of trials did he go through? Was he perfect while here? If the answer to this is yes then you have a problem. God was not a man just as we are now. Joseph Smith didn’t get it right and you are following false prophets. You can’t have it both ways. I’m not befuddled. You are trying your best to throw out some befuddlement, but I’m not affected by it. I know that you don’t understand who God is. You are clueless as to the nature and character of the true and living God of the Bible. Until you find him, you will continue to be led astray by men.
Clyde,
Is that the best you can do to prove Scriptural support for a pre-mortal existence? This is what happens when people take off on wild, wooly, and nefarious theological journeys grabbing a Bible verse here and there and try to make a doctrine out of it.
The three main attributes of God (not the Mormon god) is that He is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. It’s God’s omniscience by which He knows us before we were born. Incidentally, the Mormon gods have none of these attributes because these gods are “progressing”.
Helen says:
“Falcon, it’s easy to ridicule and mock, but there is a time a place when mocking will need to face the truth as a Patient God with love for all and without embarrassing anyone will explain His mysteries, even to the deniers.”
Helen,
Back at you. Just substitute the name falcon with Helen because this more readily applies to you and Mormonism.
Helen further writes:
“You see Falcon, you claim to have the gift of discernment, yet you have not even begun to unscramble the word of God. You claim God has spoken to you and told you the Book of Mormon is a waste of time, so in a sense you are one that refuses to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of God.”
Come on Helen. Get a grip. Every Christian who posts here has the gift of discernment as is demonstrated by the fact that they can identify and see through the false spirit of Mormonism. If by “unscramble the word of God” you mean that I can’t find the Mormonism in it, it’s because it’s not there Helen.
Oh we’re back to the BoM with you are we? You still haven’t explained to me why the BoM “reveals” one God and the King Follett discourse a different God.
4fivesolas,
Excellent post! Did God become man or did man become God. We need to figure out and understand who God is. This is what I don’t understand about the Mormon posters here. Oh yes God was once a man they claim, but then turn around and say that they don’t know if he was a man as we are now because they don’t know if he sinned, what rites and rituals he practiced, etc. No one can know for sure so Evangelicals (or anyone taking the next logical step in thinking) are sensationalists. What’s sad is the Bible tells us exactly who God is, as you have shown. So Christians know who they are worshipping. We worship the God of the Bible who has always been God, The Holy of Holies, from everlasting to everlasting. God who became man to redeem his people. God who gives all who believe in him eternal life. Mormons it would seem, really have no clue who their Mormon god is or how he came to be the god they worship. John 8:24
Helen tries to find some Biblical support for her disjointed thinking and comes up with Issiah 55:8.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Helen then writes:
“So Falcon the mysteries of God are spiritual truths known only by revelation. God reveals his mysteries to those who are obedient to the gospel. Some of God’s mysteries are yet to be revealed.”
Helen,
These truths are valid only if they are supported by the Word of God. David Koresh and any other false prophet (i.e. Joseph Smith) can use that verse from Isaiah to support their aberrant and heretical views. That verse is a great one for a false prophet to intimidate the spiritually immature. You certainly paint with a broad brush Helen. In your world you can shoe horn any Biblical verse into a tortured interpretation of Scripture.
Since you cite Isaiah try some real revelation: Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6-7; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:18-22; Isaiah 46:8-9.
Revelation is supported by Scripture Helen. There is One God not millions and billions as Mormonism teaches in violation of God’s revealed Word.
Helen what “gospel” are you obedient to? It’s a false gospel proclaimed by a false prophet so anything you have “revealed” to you is by the false spirit that inhabits Mormonism. You’ve given yourself over to a familiar spirit, the same one that appeared to Joseph Smith.
I don’t care how devout and sincere you are Helen in regards to Mormonism. It’s a false gospel that rebels against God.
You may as well be messing around with tarot cards and Ouji boards. Take a look at the symbols on your Mormon undergarment Helen. That’s the spirit that you keep close to your heart and reveals things to you.
You’ve made a very bad choice.
Helen,
I don’t care if your entire chest cavity explodes in a fiery inferno of emotional ecstasy. If what you have revealed to you or told has been revealed to your LDS prophet, is not supported by the Word of God, it’s a false revelation and you’ve just got treated to an emotional buzz built on nothing of spiritual substance.
Mormon revelation is nothing but random thoughts careening through the cannons of the Mormon prophets consciousness. Couple that with the occult foundation of Mormonism and Mormonisms continued practice of occult based rituals and what we have is a false religion driven by a spirit of fraud and deception.
Mormons need to wake up to the reality that despite their sincerity, devotion and moral code, their religion does not reflect the Spirit of the living God. In fact, Mormonism lives in a parallel universe of Christian sounding terms with the exact opposite meaning.
I don’t know why Mormons reject God for a false god with a false gospel and a false plan of salvation?
Jesus welcomes with open arms all who would come to Him in faith. But it’s important to recognize Him for who He is, God incarnate.
Dear Helen,
Those are very fine Scripture passages you’ve shared with me (Hosea 13:4, 1 Corinthians 10:1–4, Hebrews 1:2, Colossians 1:13–16).
You’ve spoken quite a bit about your belief that you had life before you were born, a life separate from your life now. A life you have no memory of. Is this something taught in the Book of Mormon?
I believe that God knew me before he ever created the Earth. But I don’t think I’m from heaven, or that I existed before the Creation. I believe that since God has known everything forever, that means he has always known me, even before I was born! That’s pretty amazing to think about. And yet, in this we see how different God is from the Creature.
Helen said
Helen, Do you really think about what you say before you speak?
I ask because you tell Falcon he cannot sit here and say the BoM is a fraud if he has never read it, Yet I would bet money you never real the Quran, the New world translation, Thats the JW’s Bible if you did not know. The Satanic Bible, The Vishnu, and all other so called holy books or texts by all these other religions.
According to JS, the BoM and your Church, all these other religions are wrong. So if you never read these books and prayed about them How can you be sure they are not in fact correct? If you can say it about Falcon, I can say it about you. How come you can “Pray” about these religions, If in fact you say you did, but yet you can hear from God, hear they are wrong, yet Falcon cannot. This my dear is a huge serving of Hypocrisy from you. You really need to think more before you speak. I will start calling you out on every little detail if I see it. I dont trust you as far as I could throw you and While I cannot prove it, I dont believe you are Helen, I think your someone else, but we have been down this road before.
Rick,
I rather enjoy my notoriety as the guy who comments on the BoM but has never read it. I also like the fact that it drives our friend Helen crazy that I say I know the BoM is not true because of personal revelation. These Mormon folks don’t like it when the table is turned on them. Mormons have a hierarchy within the game they play regarding the challenge to read the BoM.
Have you noticed that Helen has never answered my question (surprise) as to whether or not she believes the BoM is historically, archeologically, scientifically, linguistically and I could add theologically accurate book. She tells us that she believes it’s a testimony of Jesus Christ and that’s as far as she’ll go. I can write a book that’s a testimony to Jesus Christ especially if I include huge portions of the Bible like Joseph Smith did with the BoM.
How many changes have there been to the BoM? How many changes have there been to Mormon doctrine (on basic fundamental doctrine)?
I just don’t understand why people want a substitute god, Jesus, Holy Spirit and plan of salvation and why they turn to a false prophet for truth.
I guess only a orthodox christian would ever consider Holy Discernment as Revelation! Right.
I don’t get your point Helen.
You’re going to have to do better than a one sentence statement.
Holy Discernment? I don’t know what that is. It’s a new term for me.
There is a gift of the Holy Spirit that’s called “discernment” and means a supernatural ability that God gives to believers in order to equip them to identify spirit entities.
There is a spirit attached to Mormonism. It’s dark and insidious and diluting.
Further, God can provide “revelation” through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Let me give you a couple of examples.
Acts 21:10-13
10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”
12 Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”
Acts 13:2-3
2As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
The Book of Acts is demonstrates the Holy Spirit in action in the lives of believers. Those who are led by the Holy Spirit know the BoM is false, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and that the Mormon religion is false.
Helen,
In Galatians 1:11-12 the apostle Paul writes that he received the Gospel he preached “…..through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” In Galatians Paul expounds, as he does else where, on what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is. You will take note that the Gospel Paul preached bears no resemblance to the gospel via revelations that Joseph Smith said he received. Joseph Smith never submitted his gospel to anyone in authority because had he done so, he would have received correction and shown how the gospel he was promoting was not consistent with the Gospel that was once and for all received from our Lord.
In Galatians 2:2 Paul again said that because of a revelation he submitted the Gospel he was preaching to those in authority in Jerusalem. Anyone can claim revelation. Anyone can claim visitations by heavenly beings and visions and dreams. Those who are born again by the Spirit of God and are sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit can discern the true from the false.
In fact Joseph Smith’s claims are so blatantly absurd that even someone operating under a modest amount of common sense can dismiss them.
It’s when people allow themselves to come under the influence and control of the false spirit of Mormonism that their understanding is darkened to a degree that rational thought and reason is flipped on its head.
It’s been said that Mormons can think rationally about all areas of their lives with the exception of their religion. That’s quite obvious.
Helen where did you go? Unless you are leaving and never coming back I am expecting an answer to my question, You said Falcon cannot do what I think you are doing. No longer will I let you slide by, I might not be a Mod on this board, but that does not mean I wont call you out on being a hyprocite.
If your busy and simply need time to reply then fine, otherwise I am awaiting a reply. And dont think I will forget or you can reply 3 topics later after this one gets moved down. I will call you out at every turn. I am tired of LDS demanding us christains live up to a certain standered that you yourselves dont live up to. The biggest one is, you guys say we twist your scriptures and get our facts wrong, yet when you guys get your facts wrong and we show you that, you guys run and hide. Many LDS have either stopped posting and never came back, or they simply ignore the questions and move on. Like I said, I might not be a mod, but I wont let you guys get away with this crap. Other might not say anything, but you once said, Your not here to answer questions, your here to correct error. Well I am telling you, I am here to say the thin gs that everyone else is to afraid to say, or simply is not bold enough to say. Rick
Excuse me Rick B. but Falcon never said it was a fraud, he received revelation that revealed it was a fraud. So since Falcon never read it, never researched it, never studied it, he took the short cut and was told that it was not true, so I guess at least he must have prayed about it or something.
Falcon likes too claim he can spiritually discern truth from the falsehood and evil from goodness! Falcon feels he has turned the table on us, but I don’t know many Mormons that claim to know the Book of Mormons is true without first reading, studying and praying about it. In fact I don’t know many people that go to the Lord with Bible in hand and state, Gee God is this book true?
God wincing and pleading tries to answer the poor soul, my son, you first need to read it.
Kind of Like Grace, many evangelicals feel that a claim of believing that Jesus is Lord and Savior is all it takes, I guess Falcon feels that just his marvelous Holy Discernment is enough. Each to his own take on revelation I suppose. 🙂
So Like the other topic, are you going to answer my question?
Helen,
How do you know I haven’t “studied” and “researched” the BoM. How would I know what I know about it if I haven’t “studied” it. There’s a lot of ways to “study” something. There’s enough information available about the BoM for someone to make an informed decision about its veracity without playing the Mormon “read and pray about it” game. For example, all someone would have to know is the means by which Joseph Smith supposedly “translated” the golden plates to dismiss the BoM as a historically, archeologically, scientifically, linguistically or even spiritually accurate revelation from God. Besides that, I have revelation from God that the BoM is false so why would I expose myself to something that God has already told me is false?
So Helen you don’t think that faith is enough to get saved? Well that’s another way Mormonism has rejected God’s plan of salvation. I can’t add anything to Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross Helen in regards to salvation. Do you have something better that you need to add to God’s plan then the shed blood of His Son Jesus Christ?
Your in a works program in order to become a god. The same works program that the other gods supposedly went through.
That’s a false gospel Helen. Wise
Helen, at the end of the day you have no evidence that the BoM is historically, archeologically, scientifically, or linguistically accurate. Your spiritual witness regarding even the spiritual accuracy of the BoM is no more valid in my eyes than my spiritual witness that it’s false in your eyes. Anyone who claims that he used a magic rock in his hat to translate a set of golden plates that an angel showed him buried in the ground containing a language that doesn’t exist doesn’t deserve any serious consideration.
Helen,
Do you suppose someone has to read the Bible in order to get saved?
That’s another glaring difference between the false religion of Mormonism and true Christianity. In Mormonism a person is required to read the BoM, pray about it and get a feeling that it’s true. Then they are asked to bear a testimony of Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, the current LDS prophet and then as some sort of after thought, Jesus. And this Jesus isn’t even the Jesus revealed in the Bible but someone who was a special spirit offspring of one of the pantheon of Mormon gods and one of his many goddess wives.
Then once a Mormon, the convert is required to contribute at least 10% of their income to LDS Inc, go through all sorts of Mormon rituals, undergo scrutiny from an LDS bishop, comply with a specific LDS moral code, and then have to pass muster by Joseph Smith in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom where they go into the next phase of the Mormon men to god program.
Now this program isn’t outlined either in the BoM or the Bible.
This program was presented via special revelation by the man with the magic rock.
Here’s the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible.
Receive the free gift of eternal life that God is offering through faith in His Son Jesus Christ.
Incumbent in this is the idea of repentance, the acknowledgment that we are sinners and fall short of the glory of God, the the receiving of Jesus through faith as Lord and Savior (justification); the transformed life (sanctification) provided by the Holy Spirit; and finally (glorification) being present with God when we pass from this life.
Rick B. Once more friend, Falcon can do what Mormons do, Faith, Read, Study, Ponder and Pray.
Falcon just stated to having a subjective experience also — let me quote, ” I have revelation from God that the BoM is false so why would I expose myself to something that God has already told me is false?”
For someone who criticizes LDS for nothing more then “subjective” testimonies we now see that he himself has claimed a testimony of the Book of Mormon being false through revelation from God.
What does this tell me, well for one Falcon has the God given gift of “Holy Discernment” one of the many Gifts given to the Chosen of God. The gift of discerning of spirits is the supernatural power to detect the realm of the spirits and their activities.
You see this Gift gives him the ability to discern the fruits of just about anyone, even me Helen. He can know if I really think Jesus is Lord and Savior or I worship another spirit. Just by listening to Helen he can decide if my words and actions line up with true Gospel Doctrine.
“Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” (1 Tim. 4:14.)
So we see that Falcon might have been given this gift through Prophecy or even someone in his Church who had authority laid their hands on him. 🙂
I always like to say, “the spirit doesn’t make up for stupidity.” It’s like someone to lazy to read the Bible yet is seeking to know if its true. Hey stupid, read it first.
Helen,
Now you notice that there’s nothing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that says you have to read the Bible, pray if it’s true and then receive an inner witness as to it’s truthfulness in order to be saved.
I dare say that probably most people come to Christ without ever reading the Bible first. Some do but my guess is that most don’t.
How do they get saved then? Someone presents the Gospel to them, they come under conviction of the Holy Spirit and they come to understand their need for a Savior, repent, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior through faith.
I know that’s way too simple for you but you must understand, you’re on the Mormon men/women-to-god program. Do you think that someone gets to become a god just because they’re pretty? I should say not. There’s a lot of work to do in order to become a god. There’s tithes to pay, dietary rules to keep, callings to fulfill, rituals to perform, sealings, endowments, home study, food storage, women’s relief society meetings, and on-and-on-and-on. This becoming a god or goddess is work, work, work, and more work.
And a Mormon never knows if they’ve done enough to grab the brass ring as they pass past old Joe Smith standing at the gates of the Celestial Kingdom.
Now why in the world would someone want to pass up the free gift of eternal life that God is offering resulting in eternal life with Him, when they can become a god themselves?
How do they get saved then? Someone presents the Gospel to them, they come under conviction of the Holy Spirit and they come to understand their need for a Savior, repent, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior through faith.
Yea, I did all these things before I became a Mormon. I guess I’m still good to go. 🙂
Legalism is such a sad response by man to God’s grace! Those engaged in it often do even a good work at the wrong time, in the wrong way; and, perhaps, even have the wrong person engaged in doing it. Instead of accepting the real Jesus & accepting that Jesus, Who is God, whose name is above every name, paid our sin debt; instead of letting the real Holy Spirit, who is God, guide them into all truth & show them what, where, when & with whom to work; instead of consulting the real Word of God, The Holy Bible, & following its precepts, they try to do the same thing that the Galatians did & worse!
They not only try to borrow works from the Old Testament, but they create ‘callings’ which do not take into account that God has given different gifts & talents to different believers, & they do not understand that His timing regarding the specific use of even same/similar gifts and talents may not be the same for one person as for another.
They ignore that if one focuses on knowing the real Jesus, submits to the guidance of the real Holy Spirit, studies the real Word of God, one will not need what amounts to activities admins telling members that they must do works (on pain of not being approved before God) that may go against their natural gifts & talents & against the timing of God. Works not done by the guidance of, & for the glory of, the real God are wood, hay, and stubble to be burned!
People WILL be rewarded in Heaven, but that is NOT the main point of all that we do! Legalism brings death. Jesus is LIFE!
Helen,
Could you please describe for me the “Jesus” you’ve put your faith in for eternal life? Is He the Jesus revealed in the Bible or is He the Jesus that’s the offspring of a father-mother god (one of many in the pantheon of Mormon gods) who lives on or near the planet Kolob? The only One that can save you is God. So do you receive the God described in the BoM or the god described in the King Follett discourse?
The Jesus you claimed to have received is not God incarnate. The Mormon Jesus is “a god” one of millions or perhaps billions of gods. In addition to this Helen, you aren’t counting on Jesus for your salvation as a Christian does. You are counting on your numerous works within the Mormon system to become a goddess.
Have you done enough yet to become a goddess Helen? When will you know when you have done enough to become a goddess? Have you sinned today? Has that put you in the minus column for the week and put your quest to become a goddess in jeopardy?
See here’s the problem Helen, Mormonism uses Christian language in regards to salvation that means something entirely different than what the Bible describes. This is all part of the Mormon smoke screen of dishonesty that would have people believe that Mormonism is one thing when it’s something entirely different.
Helen,
You seem to be inferring that you have studied, researched and read the BoM and yet you deftly ignore the question I have asked you regarding whether or not it’s historically, archeologically, scientifically and linguistically accurate. You have yet to produce any evidence from these categories that would support such a notion.
I think Rick has you pretty well pegged.
Helen, this is the last time I am going to ask you before I go to the next phase. Have you ever read the Quron? The Visnu? The Satanic Verses? all other so called holy books?
If not, then how do you know they are wrong? Just because you believe the BoM is corret is not enough. You cannot sit here and say, Falcon has not read the BoM and so since he has never read it, just reply on prayer or revalation to claim it is false. Your Church claims all these other Religions are wrong. How do you know they are? They claim like you, they heard from God, or their “Holy” Books tell them they are true, or they prayed about it. So answer this question or I will ask the mods to either ban you, or put you in Mod Jail as CD called it until you do. You demand a lot from us, yet in return you dont allow your self to live up to the same standards you set for us.
So Helen provides us with an excellent example of what could be included in a “Cult 101” class.
In our example here I described what it means to be born again. Helen says, “I did that when I became a Mormon”.
Really?
Are we talking about the same Jesus? No! Are we talking about the same salvation? No! Do Mormons use the same vocabulary and terms in order to mislead, misdirect, obfuscate and confuse people? Absolutely Yes!
Why do they do that? Well it’s because they are deceitful just like the false prophet who founded their religion.
Mormonism is a scheme. Joseph Smith’s first scheme was to get people to think he could find buried treasure in the ground by looking into a magic rock. Some people believed him even when no treasure was found. He went on to bigger and better things and claimed he located some gold plates in the ground.
Now this is the guy who Mormons believe has to give them the thumbs-up in order to become gods.
Is it any wonder Mormonism has to use Christian sounding lingo to fool people.
First there seems to be the problem of Falcon actively engaged in a agenda of criticizing Mormonism let alone mocking and ridiculing.
Second, he has received revelation that the Book of Mormon is False by the gift of the spirit, “discernment” which pretty much told him it would be a waste of time to even read it.
Then there is Helen, I don’t go around criticizing any religion, I might question your apostate teachings, I might address them as how we see them differently compared to my religion.
Then there is the problem that I don’t have the gift of Holy Discernment, I can’t just look at a book and tell you if its true or false.
This pretty much should show that I have not ever even considered studying any other religion except for orthodox christianity, so not ever reading their doctrine (other non orthodox religions) I could not begin to tell you whether I would even consider praying about it.
By the way Rick, I don’t only believe the Book of Mormon is true, I know it is. For the Spirit of God whispered to me that it was true. A real voice spoke to me Rick B. it was much more then discernment, it was personal revelation after I read it, studied it, pondered it, and then decided to ask God about it.
James 1:5 🙂
Alright Helen, You gave an answer but still avoided my question. So I guess I will let it slide and ask again, but this will be it, Your Church, your BoM, your Prophets, and Your God all teach by way of believing what the BoM says, Their are only two Churchs, The Church of the Devil and the true church. Since you believe your church is the true Church, how can you teach or believe all other churchs are wrong? Your never stuided them or prayed about them, falcon is doing what your doing, and your saying he cannot, yet you do it. These other religions belive they are corret and by default your religion is wrong since theirs is correct. So how can you be sure they are false and yours is correct if you never read or studied what they taught, or never even prayed about them?
1). How can I be sure they are wrong?
Well Rick B. its personal, not something that one can tell someone else how you know for sure or how they can know for sure. I can tell you the steps it takes, Faith, Reading, Studying, Pondering and praying. So when I have done all these things and apply James 1:5 to the mix, I get what is at least for me, my answer. It may not suit you, it may not suit others who like falcon received a answer not to read the Book of Mormon since its false. You see Rick B. I don’t believe God works that way, it takes sincere effort, a humble desire to know, and faith to ask God. But for those who have this “Holy Discernment” and can know the spirit of each and every book with out reading it, well what can I say but that really is a great gift to have.
2). How can you teach or believe all other churches are wrong?
Rick B. do you really want to ask a very circular question, why do you think Orthodox Christianity is the only truth out there. Why do Christians call the Mormon Faith that of the Devil and we listen to evil spirits, that the Book of Mormon was written by listening to false spirits etc, etc.
Falcon is not doing what I’m doing. I only claim something to be true after I have actually read it, studied and pondered upon it. Falcon’s only claim to fame is “Holy Discernment”.
Helen,
One does not need to read the BoM to know it is false. All one has to do is research it. The information is out there. There’s even an interesting video showing that there is no archeological, historical, or linguistic evidence. Joseph Smith got so much wrong including, elephants, horses, steel, wheat, coins, etc. that were not even on this continent at the time of his fictional BoM peoples. No, one does not have to read a false book to research all the study that has been done on it. I’m thinking maybe you need to do some research, instead of relying on your own feelings. Here is a link to the video I mentioned:
http://www.mrm.org/
It’s called The Bible versus The Book of Mormon. Scroll down a little, the video is on the right of the page.
“Now why in the world would someone want to pass up the free gift of eternal life that God is offering resulting in eternal life with Him, when they can become a god themselves?”
This is a fine question, Falcon. I think the answer is simply the nature of unregenerate man. This nature is anti-God; it does not seek after God (Romans 3). It is incapable of doing so.
I have read that wanting to be one’s own god is the essence of sin. We see this in the Garden of Eden. And we certainly see it in our day. Man talks of his free will, imagining this proves he is capable of living righteously. Well, man is certainly free to do whatever he wants. In fact, solely what he wants. His wants flow from a depraved mind and heart. Only what he wants. That’s the problem.
Helen said
It really rather simple, It is called evidence. Courts will throw out cases that have no exidence. Courts convit due to evidence. You have what we called blind faith, No evidence, yet you want to believe. We have evidence and we know as a result it is true.
You cannot say, I have no evidence but I know it’s true, you will end up in hell as a result.
“You cannot say, I have no evidence but I know it’s true, you will end up in hell as a result.”
My evidence Rick B. comes from God and that my friend is evidence that is more accurate, more truthful, more superior to anything man can dig up out of the Ground.
See you in heaven friend, for I would never utter a judgement against any individual, you see God is my Judge and your judge. For you to assume the judgement seat of God is, well its just plain silly.
Helen,
You are one confused soul.
You do what you accuse me of doing but in your twisted logic believe that you aren’t.
God whispered in your ear in an audible voice. Really? And he told you what? That the BoM is true? Well then why don’t you follow the God revealed in the BoM specifically in Moroni 8:18. You’re going against your audible witness Helen. You are an apostate! You have decided to go against the voice of God and follow a false prophet who said in the King Follett discourse something totally different then what Moroni 8:18 says.
Might I add as a sidebar Helen, a lot of people claim to have heard the audible voice of God and their witness is entirely different than yours. Someone has a spiritual hearing problem.
So now you believe you can become a goddess by paying a fee to get a ticket to get into a temple where by you will do Free Masonry rituals that will insure you your very own planets to rule. And you believe this is what the audible voice of God you heard bore witness to?
I’ll stick with the gift of discernment as spoken of in First Corinthians chapter 12, aside from an audible voice that has led you to bear a testimony of one God but has led you to follow another.
For someone who has daily Holy Discernment moments and admits too subjective testimonies, one would think your almost Mormon 🙂
Moroni 8:18 is not about a unchangeable God, did not God Christ say,
Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Yet we learn from the scriptures that Jesus “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” Luke 2:52
The term unchangeable God is not referencing a physical state.
Question, if God is unchangeable, why did He receive something he already had. When something is given it surely means they are receiving something they never had.
Smiling OL, “You are one confused soul.
You do what you accuse me of doing but in your twisted logic believe that you aren’t.”
I’m sorry Falcon, I never made claim too “Holy Discernment”. I don’t have the infused Gift of the Sprit to detect false spirits just by holding up a Book and stating so. This gift of the Spirit is precious and I would think you would go to the head of the line in any Church Leadership Opportunity. 🙂
Helen, You show by everything you say, you really dont know what the Bible says and what your Own Church teaches.
You said I cannot pass judgment upon you, I was not, I am only saying what the Bible tells me. Again Paul in Gal 1:8-9 says if you have a false gospel you will go to hell. You have a false gospel.
Gal 1:8-9 is not the only verse that says or teaches that. Then your BoM says their are only 2 churchs, one is the true church and one is the devils church. So we both cannot be saved and believres.
I said this before, Many LDS including Ralph, a TBM has admited we have different gospels. So either Ralph lied, or he was being honest, I think he was being honest. That means a TBM seems to disagree with you. So Helen, We have a problem, two so called TBM cannot agree. Also I said this before, You guys claim your Christians and we believe the same thing, but then when I say, Ok, If your a christain, and we believe the same things, then that makes me a mormon, so I can put on an elder badge and teach what I believe. Sadly every mormon that claims we believe the same Gospel draws the line when I talk about going door to door teaching my gospel of grace alone under the name of the LDS church.
That proves we dont have the same belief. Then if God spoke to me, And told me the LDS church is false, but God spoke to you saying the LDS church is true, then we cannot be listing to the same God. So what do we do know? We must look to the evidence, I have plenty, you have none.
We christians ask for evidence from you guys all the time, yet we never get any. Where are the Golden plates? Where is land from the BoM? Where is any written reformed egyption langauge? Like Andy said, where are any of the 4 living people that the BoM mentions? You guys avoid questions like the plauge. That speaks volumes when you refuse to answer questions.
Then the FLDS and the RLDS claim to be LDS, yet you guys claim Loudly and Proudly, No the are not. It’s ok for the LDS to say, Nope, RLDS and FLDS are not LDS, They dont believe what we believe, yet when we Christians claim, LDS are not christains, what do you guys do? You suck your thumbs, and cry, Your mean, thats not nice, we are christians. Really, we dont have the same gospel, your gospel is closer to what the FLDS and the RLDS believe. Why is it they cannot be LDS, but you can be Christians?
Helen,
Rick got it absolutely right when he said that you have no idea what your church teaches. You quote Moroni 8:18 about God being unchangeable and at the same time believe that the Mormon god progressed (changed) from a sinful man to a god. Here’s a quote from one of you favorite guys Brigham Young:
“God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 120).
Well how about that? Moroni 8:18 teaches you one thing and your guy BY teaches something totally the opposite. Welcome to the wacky world of Mormonism where two distinct and opposite notions can be believed simultaneously.
And about this spirit entity that whispered in your ear Helen. Who was that? Could you describe that spirit? Is it the spirit of Mormonism? I don’t doubt that the spirit of Mormonism would whisper in your ear Helen. Has he caused any spirit entities to appear to you when you are doing the dunking for the dead ritual? Is this the spirit that is represented by the occult symbols you have on your Mormon undergarment and on your temples?
Acts 16:16-18 gives a perfect example of the Spirit of God and that of a false spirit like that found in Mormonism. This evil spirit was testifying that Paul was a follower of the most high God. Why then did Paul cast that spirit out? Because the spirit of divination was trying to attach himself to the message being delivered by the apostle Paul and cause confusion. This is what happens with the spirit of Mormonism. It attempts to counterfeit itself and is very content with providing the Helen’s of the world with whispered messages and even spiritual appearance during temple rituals.
Burn your Mormon undergarment Helen!
OK, I’ll add my 2 bobs worth –
Faclon you said ”progressed (changed)”. If you have been teaching at college/uni you should know the real meanings of words. I have looked this word (progress) up online and I cannot find any reference to it (including synonyms) to meaning change (maybe I didn’t look hard enough). One particular meaning I found is rather relevant here – ”advance towards completion, maturity, or perfection: the steady onward march of progress”
We can teach that God has never changed from eternity to eternity because He has not. His (and our) very being is ‘God’. We have been called ‘Gods in embryo’ by one of our leaders. We teach that we are Heavenly Father’s children and that like our children on this earth that grow, develop and progress from human embryo to human adult, we too have that potential to become like our Heavenly Father. So bringing that back to Him, He has been, and always will be God because His character/traits/being has never changed. He may have passed through different parts of a life cycle but He has never changed.
A good example is a butterfly. The caterpillar may look different to the parent, but it is the same creature/being. They have exactly the same DNA. Nothing about it changes except for a physical appearance, which does not define character or being.
Falcon, did you get so confused with unchanging and progress you did not have a answer for me about God being given all power. Stumped ?????
Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Rick B. “Then if God spoke to me, And told me the LDS church is false, but God spoke to you saying the LDS church is true, then we cannot be listing to the same God.”
This ought to be interesting, so Falcon claims revelation was given to him by way of “holy discernment” so I suppose you were given this or received it in another way, can you please explain how God spoke to you? I made it perfectly clear it was not a warm fuzzy feeling, but the voice of God through the Holy Ghost that whispered into my ear that the Book of Mormon was true. It was real Rick B., it was the best evidence that one could ever receive that Jesus is the Christ and this is His Church and Kingdom.
Your turn.
Ralph,
“He has been, and always will be God because His character/traits/being has never changed.”
How do you explain the God of the BoM (Trinity), changed to the god of the King Follett discourse, changed to Adam/god, changed yet again back to the god of the King Follett discourse? Mormons have changed who and what God is since 1830! Which one of these is correct? I’ll bet those living in Brigham Young’s day would fight you on God being Adam. Even the FLDS still boldly proclaim this is true. I would think that the first thing for Mormons to do is to figure out just which god they are serving. The Christian God is unchangeable, the Holy of Holies, from all eternity to all eternity, He knows the end from the beginning.
Malachi 3:6
James 1:17
Numbers 23:19-20
Isaiah 46:9-10
9Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Even the Book of Mormon proclaims God doesn’t change.
Mormon 9:9-10
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?10And now if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not God of miracles.
What confusion it must be to have such changing views of God. Which leader are you supposed to follow? Which god?
Helen,
The Bible tells us by way of acts 17:11 that they searched the scriptures to know if these things are true. The Bible does not tell us to pray about truth. Jer 17:9 say’s
We cannot trust our hearts to discern truth.
Then we know from scripture that satan can come in the form of an angel of light to lie and decive people,
But God also does speak to us by way of the Holy Ghost speaking to us and he did speak to me, along with searching the scripture. And reading and searching your scriptures. When I read your scriptures all I find is confusion and contrdictions. The Bible tells us Satan is the author of confusion, Not God.
God himself says that he has always been God and besides him he knows of no other God. By his very nature he is God because he has ALWAYS BEEN God. Galatians 4:8 says we are not to worship gods that are not gods by nature. If God was once a man, how could he be a God by nature? If God has always been God, then he could not have once been a man who progressed into godhood. Think about the couplet put out by Mormons:
As man is, God once was.
As God is, man may become.
Who came first in this? Right, man. That would mean that God has not always been God, but was a man first. Mormonism puts man before God. This is not Christian, and is NOT found anywhere in the Christian Bible!
The Bible also tells us that God is a Spirit.
John 4:24,
2 Corinthians 3:17
Mormonism teaches that God has flesh and bones.
(D&C 130:22.) 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
So which are we to believe as Christians? The Holy Word of the Christian God, or the words of a man named Joseph Smith?
Rick B. mismanages the scriptures.
Helen,
The Bible tells us by way of acts 17:11 that they searched the scriptures to know if these things are true. The Bible does not tell us to pray about truth. Jer 17:9 say’s
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
If this is about prayer and preached in orthodox churches as such doctrine, then I’m glad that at least like Falcon your left with “Holy Discernment”.
Rick then points out, “But God also does speak to us by way of the Holy Ghost speaking to us and he did speak to me, along with searching the scripture.”
Now what is it Rick B. can one hold up the Book Of Mormon to God and ask for discernment to know that it is false. Or like you be led by the scriptures to know that the Book of Mormon is evil.
Falcon believes in revelation, do you? is revelation the whispering audibly of the small quiet voice of the Holy Ghost, something one can actually hear or is it just discernment and the Bible, by reading.
John 14:13-14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
There you go Rick B. “ANYTHING”. 🙂
Helen, When it says anything, it means anything that is in line with Gods will.
If you want to say anything, then we have a problem, How come we dont have perfect peace and world harmony? We all want that, does that fit with anything?
How come we are not all wealthy and healthy? Does that apply to anything? How come we as christains want you guys to come to the truth, yet you feel we need to come to the truth, we all want confusion to be cleared up. Does that not fall under anything?
I could go on with things that we dont have or see happening, that could fall under anything. So the anything does not apply to everything, only if it is in line with Gods word.
Helen,
The followers of David Koresh and Jim Jones prayed to know truth. They thought they were following true prophets of God. So how does one back up what they feel in their heart is from God?
John 5:39
1 John 4:1
We are to test every spirit against God’s Holy Word. If it doesn’t line up, we are to reject it. Even Brigham Young said to take up the Bible and compare Mormonism to it. (Journal of Discourses Vol. 16 Page 46) Have you done these things? God gave us a manual to live by. I know how little that manual truly means to a Mormon. Mormons are taught that the Bible can not be trusted. It has been copied so many times and evil men changed the text. This is a lie Helen. Put away all of your LDS standard works, including the LDS bible and go out and buy a fresh new Bible not affiliated with Mormonism. Ask the true and living God of that Bible to reveal himself to you. Through the pages and text of his Holy Word. It’s all in there. You just need to look. I promise you won’t go to Hell for looking.