Mormon History: Here a blip, there a blip…

Latter-day Saint Melissa Inouye writes, “Mormonism isn’t like a string of Christmas lights.” She would rather liken Mormonism to a loaf of sourdough bread, and here’s why.

Each light in a string of Christmas lights is dependent on the other lights in order to function properly. If one light is broken (in her example), the entire string will not light. Ms. Inouye applies this analogy to Mormons who have their faith shaken, becoming disillusioned when they are first exposed to Mormon Church history that has not been “sanitized.” While she says she can empathize with those who are upset over these issues, she disagrees with Mormons who allow the historical facts to put out their whole string of lights. She writes,

“The logic behind this loss of faith — Joseph Smith was a fraud, therefore the religion that he founded is bogus, and one’s entire experience as a Mormon is bogus — is actually just the reverse of how many Mormons approach their faith. If the Book of Mormon is true, the thinking goes, then everything Joseph Smith did or said was divinely inspired. And if Joseph Smith was divinely inspired in everything, then everything about the church is just how God wants it.

“…Human flaws are painfully apparent throughout the history of every major religious tradition — including Mormonism — but that doesn’t negate the experience, motives, or morals of all Catholics, Anglicans, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims — or Mormons.”

Suggesting that the Christmas-lights view of religion is “too easily manufactured and too easily broken,” Ms. Inouye proposes something different:

“So if the Christmas lights approach to faith doesn’t work, we need something else. Something like sourdough bread.”

For this new analogy Ms. Inouye describes sourdough starter as “sour on the verge of stinky, fermented bordering on decayed.” It would seem that she is applying this description to the foundation or “starter” of Mormonism, though she does not say so outright. At any rate, Ms. Inouye writes that adding the proper balance of additional ingredients to this bacteria-laden stew “results in heavenly bread” or “goodness.”

Ms. Inouye appears to be saying that she likes the way Mormonism has turned out–and that’s good enough for her. She likely agrees with Mormonism’s 15th Prophet/President who advised, “don’t worry about those little flicks of history…Now, there will be a blip here, a blip there, a mistake here, a mistake there. But by and large the work is wonderful, and vast good is being accomplished…” (Gordon B. Hinckley, interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes, April 1996)

You know, the same thing could be said, for example, about the Olympics or modern medicine. Both have had their fair share of failures and triumphs and both accomplish good in their respective spheres. But neither of them claims, as does Mormonism, to be the only authorized arbiter of eternal life.

Ms. Inouye likes the “experience, motives, [and] morals” Mormonism provides, but according to LDS leaders, the Mormon Church’s purpose involves much more than what happens in this life. Mormon apostle Dallin Oaks said, “The ultimate mission of our Savior’s Church is to help us achieve exaltation in the celestial kingdom…” (Ensign, 11/2005, 27). Mormon apostle Jeffrey Holland explained, “This Church is the Lord’s vehicle for crucial doctrines, ordinances, covenants, and keys that are essential to exaltation” (Ensign 5/2004, 32). Indeed, Mormon apostle Marion Romney taught, “This Church…is the way, the truth, and the life” (Book of Mormon Student Manual Religion 121 and 122, 26). So this is not just about experience and morals; it is about eternity. Mormonism must be what it claims to be; otherwise it cannot deliver on its eternal promises.

When speaking to his congregation and not on national television, Gordon B. Hinckley made a very definitive statement. He said, “Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing” (Ensign, May 2003, 60). And determining whether the Mormon Church is true–or a fraud–rests first of all upon history. That is, did God actually speak to Joseph Smith in 1820 as recorded in Mormon scripture (the “sanitized” version of the Mormon history), or not (as suggested by other historical evidence)?

Again, Mr. Hinckley said,

“To you, this day, I affirm my witness of the calling of the Prophet Joseph, of his works, of the sealing of his testimony with his blood as a martyr to the eternal truth. Each of you can bear witness of the same thing. You and I are faced with the stark question of accepting the truth of the First Vision and that which followed it. On the question of its reality lies the very validity of this Church.” (Ensign, 11/2007, 86)

Almost 130 years before Mr. Hinckley’s challenge, Mormonism’s third Prophet/President said something similar. John Taylor reasoned,

“… if God has not spoken, if the angel of God has not appeared to Joseph Smith, and if these things are not true of which we speak, then the whole thing is an imposture from beginning to end. There is no halfway house, no middle path about the matter; it is either one thing or the other.” (Journal of Discourses, 21:165)

Therefore, though Ms. Inouye chooses to believe differently, Mormonism is like a string of Christmas lights, and each historical bulb on the string matters.

If God did not call Joseph Smith to restore the true church, the Mormon Church is a fraud.

If the Book of Mormon did not come forth in the way Joseph Smith said it did, “It is a ‘sudden death’ proposition. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is, or this Church and its founder are false, a deception from the first instance onward.” (Mormon apostle Jeffrey R. Holland, quoted in Ensign, 9/2002, 14)

If the priesthood was not restored “under the hands of John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John,” Mr. Hinckley said, “we have nothing” (Ensign, 8/1998, 72).

And on it goes, like dominoes, until you’re left eating your bread in the dark.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
This entry was posted in Early Mormonism, Mormon History and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

69 Responses to Mormon History: Here a blip, there a blip…

  1. Ralph says:

    Falcon,

    You’ve done a lot of talking for me with assumptions and your ideas at what I do/don’t believe/think, but you haven’t really been listening to me.

    I said that I read the Bible, researched the internet on both anti- and pro-LDS sites and relied on my own experiences (of which I have only told you a couple; the rest are not for general public knowledge and if I told you, you’d understand why). I have not relied on a ‘burning in the bosom’ as you keep telling people I have been doing.

    I have then said that I have reconciled my BELIEFS, not church/religion but beliefs, with all of these. Yes, my beliefs line up with the LDS church, but that is how many here have come to line up with whatever denomination/ideology (eg for you, you keep saying that your leaning more towards Calvanism), they have done their research and decided what they want to believe in and then met/joined with a group of people that believe similar – eg Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, etc.

    As far as your friend’s case, I know others who have said the same thing – both LDS and traditional Christian. But I know plenty more who have left their belief in God after the death of their infant because of the harsh reality of the situation. They become embittered, wanting to blame someone and when a human can’t be found to blame they blame God and turn from Him – my wife for example. If I were to counsel someone in their grief I would get them to affirm their faith in a God regardless of their denomination, not pressure them into the LDS church. That is what I did on my mission.

  2. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I think you articulated well the way that Ralph ” found ” Mormonism in the Bible.
    Since we don’t know all the particular’s of his search and considering everything going on in
    his life at the time, it becomes rather pointless for us to argue with him over this. We
    know that many distinct Mormon doctrines are not taught in the Bible because otherwise
    Mormons would’nt be carrying the D&C and Mormon leaders would’nt have preached
    some of the doctrines they have since 1830 etc. For Mormons like Ralph it is incumbent
    on us to pray for him , and to be ready to kindly offer a open hand to him when he finally
    arrives at the point that he sees MormonISM is not what it claims to be . He does’nt realize
    it now but what he needs won’t be found in working hard in his church religious system in
    hope to be worthy and gain God’s approval for complete forgiveness and eternal life , instead
    he needs the person of the Lord Jesus Christ . Hopefully one day he will come to understand
    difference —Rom 10 :1-4 ; Phil 3:9

  3. falcon says:

    Mike,
    Here would be a good test. Give an unbeliever, someone with little religious experience, a copy of the NT. Have them read it and then tell you what it’s about. What would they describe? I will bet you dimes to donuts that nothing approaching Mormonism would be described by this person.
    It’s very simple, we don’t need “additional revelation” as is claimed by Mormonism. In-other-words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is plain and as Jesus said on the cross when He breathed His last, “It is finished.” In Greek the words mean “the debt is paid”. Jesus paid with His mortal life so that we might have eternal life.
    There is nothing that can be added to this revelation. It can’t be enhanced or improved upon and certainly not updated for future generations. God is consistent and He is eternal, ever lasting. He is without change. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
    Most here know that my orientation is to what could be called a “full Gospel” message which merely means that I believe fully in what is contained in the NT, including those verses talking about apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. I also accept, for today, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit which includes prophesy.
    However my religious experience is guided by the standards set-down in the Bible concerning these things. There’s no addition to God’s Word. God may reveal truths to people that are already there that they haven’t come fully to understand. But there’s no update to God’s Word.
    Finding the truth in the Bible isn’t really very complicated. The Gospel message of Jesus Christ is clear and unambiguous. There’s no need for subtle nuance. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises made by the Father to redeem mankind from the penalty for sin.

  4. Kate says:

    grindael,
    You said “and so the lies continue.” I’ve often wondered how the men at the top live with themselves. Are they knowingly being dishonest? Do they just chalk it all up to “lying for the Lord” ??? I get that the lay members just apply continuing revelation to all of this, but the prophet himself? He has to know that he’s being dishonest. He has to know that God is not speaking to him. Just a thought…

  5. Mike R says:

    Falcon, you may just have a great idea there — a test— which would be similar to what Jesus’
    apostles would suggest [ 1Jn 4:1-3]. The rationale that Mormons like Ralph display concerning
    testing any “modern” day apostles with the Word of God is strange to say the least. It all comes
    down to Jesus and His establishing the new covenant thru His death and Resurrection , and the
    testimony of those who were appointed by Him to spread the message of His paying our debt
    and reconciling us to God , the good news ! As you correctly note there is nothing that
    can be added to this message , this ” Way ” to eternal life preached by Jesus’ apostles —
    Jn 14:6;Acts 4:12; Phil 3:9. You said : ” It can’t be enhanced or improved upon and certainly
    not updated for future generations .” AMEN ! How men and women can receive eternal life—
    a full salvation– is all explained in the preaching of the Jesus’ apostles and it has changed lives
    for 2000 years now because of it’s power and sufficiency [ Rom 1:16]. Contrast what Mormon
    apostles have taught as spiritual truth relative to this message ever since their alleged
    appointment by Jesus to relay His same gospel , and we see a pattern emerge , one that is
    unstable , inconsistent—Eph 4:14 . [ Yet this behavior is one that Mormon leaders have accused
    those that teach in "apostate" churches of ! ] . May the Mormon people compare what Jesus’
    apostles preached in their travels to the record of what Mormon apostles have claimed is that
    same gospel–Gal.1:8

  6. 4fivesolas says:

    I would be interested to find out from Ralph and TJayT and other Mormons who read and post here, what is their take on what this blog post is about. Is it acceptable for a Mormon to basically deny the roots of Mormonism as true (i.e. the LDS founders got a lot of stuff wrong, and quite frankly, were into some bizarre stuff with the polygamy, blood atonement, establishing their own monetary and banking system, etc. etc.) – and say but “I like the religious system now that it has dicarded these ideas and it has grown into something that helps me live a moral and spiritual life?” Basically denying Mormon truth claims? and still be considered a faithful member?

  7. falcon says:

    4/5
    Given your short list of “mishaps” in Mormonism, you wonder if these guys think they finally got it right. They had so many do-overs that the current edition of Mormonism doesn’t look much like that of Mormonism past. If these folks have any spiritual or intellectual integrity at all, they’d realize that what they have here in Mormonism is, at best, a failed religious experiment.
    But this is how these false apostles and revelators work the system. They get the followers to buy-in-to a false premise that revelation is on going. Just think, they can never be wrong. Progressive revelation is the technique by which revelations and practices that are clearly off-the-wall can be assigned to that Mormon scrapheap with the sign “folklore”.
    I’m not really sure what “folklore” is suppose to be. Is it something like urban legends?
    For me it all comes down to trust. How can people give themselves over so completely to a religious fairy tale that they will do anything to protect the myth? How can they have any trust in the perpetrators of this fraud. This is denial at its most intense.
    But here’s where personal revelation which drives a Mormons emotions comes in. There is nothing like the desire to believe in something to keep it going. For the people who do start to figure it out there has to be a process of rationalization that will simultaneously allow them to maintain some sort of connection to the myth while recognizing that the evidence against it is over whelming.
    Sandra Tanner talks about going to the Mormon historical association meetings. She has more than hinted that these Mormon historians have the information available that goes against the created history. These folks just keep plugging along however which is the bottom line in Mormonism. Don’t leave!

  8. falcon says:

    Ralph,
    As I’ve said before, I read what you say and draw conclusions based on the information you have provided and add to that the fact that you have embraced the five points of the LDS religion. In the years we have posted back and forth I’ve gotten a pretty good idea of what your belief system is. You’ve written what I would call some pretty astonishing things particularly in defense of Joseph Smith. Your defense of him, LDS history, the doctrines and beliefs of Mormonism past and present, gives the reader certain impressions. Perhaps you don’t like the impressions you have given but that is your fault not ours.
    So you didn’t study the Bible when you came to your conclusions regarding the LDS being true? That’s all the worse. The fact of the matter is, Mormonism as we keep saying, is not in the Bible. You have been convinced based on some rather dubious and fantastic stories told by Joseph Smith. You have placed your eternal destiny and that of your family in his hands. You’ve committed your time, treasure and efforts to a man who is like countless others who have come along in the last 2,000 years.
    Now you say you’ve had “experiences”. Ralph would it surprise you to know that the Bible is replete with stories of people who had “experiences” but they were not manifested by God. But these “experiences” convinced people none-the-less and led them away from God.
    Ralph I know who the Mormon god is and what the spirit is that drives Mormonism. When Jesus met the demonic who had a “legion” of demons, he pleaded with Jesus not to send them out of the country. Why do you suppose that was? I have no doubt that the spirit of Mormonism can provide experiences.

  9. falcon says:

    Ralph was being a little coy with us regarding “experiences” he has had and my guess these “experiences” serve to reinforce his belief in Mormonism.
    Here’s the problem with “experiences”; they mean absolutely nothing unless someone is definitive as to where those experiences come from. I want to know by what spirit these experiences are generated.
    I’ve spent some quality time over the years researching this topic and I can testify to the fact that experiences, especially those that have a spiritual component, need to be tested.
    So when Ralph tells us he has had experiences I can make a couple of assumptions. First of all I know who/what the spirit of Mormonism is. Ralph and other Mormons who have posted here over the years, go to great length to explain away the Mormon-occult connection. For example, it is widely known that Joseph Smith dabbled in the occult and used a seer stone to try and locate treasure buried in the ground. We also know that Joseph Smith used the same seer stone to “translate” some golden plates he claimed he found.
    The method for this translating was that Smith put the seer stone in a hat and shoved his face (in the hat) to eliminate outside light and then, it was said, he saw messages floating about that contained the words which became the BoM. Now Ralph and others try to tell us that this is perfectly acceptable even though the Bible calls it scrying and condemns it.
    There have been Mormons who have also attested to seeing spirits in the Mormon temple while participating in the baptism for the dead ritual. Is it really very hard to figure out what they are seeing?
    So although Ralph uses his “experiences” to affirm his belief in Mormonism, it’s not a spirit I’d claim.

  10. falcon says:

    Ralph wrote that he read the Bible and went to some sites which he called “anti” which I find interesting. If the sites questioned Mormonism and presented evidence regarding the falseness of this religion Ralph identified them as “anti”. Did it ever occur to Ralph that these sites provide an accurate picture of Mormonism? The attitude that Ralph expresses in identifying these sites as “anti” tells us something about his mind-set while doing his research.
    Ralph also says that he didn’t rely on a “burning in the bosom” experience to determine the truth about Mormonism. I’m wondering a couple of things about this. First of all it is my understanding that the “burning in the bosom” is the normative experience for someone confirming the truth of the BoM. I’m wondering what other type of confirmation Ralph gets then to confirm the truth of what he believes?
    As I mentioned above, Ralph says he has had experiences. People who go to seances get spiritual experiences. I have a book here, written by a Mormon that chronicles Mormon experiences in the temple. The book is a documented expose of the occult and it wouldn’t take an expert on the subject to recognize it.
    Evidence, it would seem, doesn’t move Ralph. It doesn’t move him any more than UFO aficionados, psychic healers or ghost hunters are moved by evidence. There is nothing stronger than desire and if someone wants to believe something ordinary events become extraordinary and confirming.
    Ralph is a Mormon who will hold on to the end. Fortunately he’s a small minority of Mormons who think that believing in the face of evidence to the contrary is a badge of honor. When two-thirds of the tribe don’t practice the religion with which they are identified that tells us something.

  11. Rick B says:

    Ralph,
    Some people call this, the great commission.

    Matthew 28:19 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

    Notice Verse 20, Jesus says, I will be with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world.

    Question Ralph, Has the end of the world come yet? The answer is no, no it has not, otherwise if it has, I would not be talking with you and telling you this. This is just one of Many verses that tells me Mormonism is false. If God said he would be with us until the end, then why would He allow His gospel message to fall into apostasy? Their is so many questions Mormons cannot answer and will not.

    You might claim you have or you can, But none us here believe you can or have. A few examples are, How many prophecies does JS need to get wrong before you reject him? The Bible says One is all it takes, yet JS got all of them wrong.

    Show us as from the Bible alone where Mormonism can be found? Cannot be done.
    Why do LDS teach their is/was a total apostasy, yet John is alive preaching the Gospel till Jesus returns. That means their was not, cannot be a total apostasy.

    How can you be fine with all the changes made in Mormons and the prophets/presidents contradict each other as this article points out.

  12. Rick B says:

    Ralph, This is for you, but any person, LDS or Christian that wants to look into this can. Their was an atheist who used to post here and then started here own blog, the link to her blog is, http://www.interested01.blogspot.com

    I have been on here blog sharing Jesus with her since the day she started here blog, I have replied on almost every single topic, and it is going on I believe 4 years of topics. Here newest topic was written because of something I asked her/stated on her blog.

    I feel she does not know her Bible and keeps accusing God of being hateful and cruel, and yet has no clue. This is an exact quote from her blog to me,

    Rick you missed the point again. It does not matter what god’s reasons are, that is not part of the discussion. The cruelty exist because he performed acts of cruelty. There is never justification for cruelty in my book of morality. So again I say it doesn’t matter that he warned them or that he had reasons, that is no excuse. If those stories were true and I do not believe they are the god of the bible is a cruel

    Last word after cruel was left off. Now the point of all of this is, people will believe what they want, despite any evidence given. I replied to Interested that she Denys God exists because she feels He is cruel and no matter why He did anything He did, she maintains He is cruel and in her mind, their is no reason for being cruel. So I went into detail about both abortion and partial birth abortion being cruel. Since she does not blog about the cruelty of people in this world and (cont)

  13. Rick B says:

    I have a post awaiting moderation, once it is posted this one will make more sense.
    (Cont),
    All the various things, to me this shows she and other atheists that make these claims are not being honest and no matter what I or other Christians say or show them, they dont care. To Me Mormons are no different. Interested claims to reject God since she feels He is cruel, yet when shown Man is cruel and the things we do can be cruel, such as abortion, and she either ignores it or makes excuses for it, shows they dont care about the truth, this to me is not different than the Mormons who make excuses for all the false prophecies that never came to pass, or the many changes or contradictions from their leaders.

  14. falcon says:

    Ralph has now gone to the “experience as a confirmation of truth” route.
    I think we’ve been down this road before. In fact I know we have. I base my faith on what the Bible has revealed about the nature of God, the nature of man, and God’s plan for reconciling mankind to Himself.
    I’ve had all kinds of spiritual experiences. Those experiences are in line with the Bible which contains the revelation of Jesus Christ.
    As Rick has point out above and what I’ve pointed out until I’m blue in the fingers, is that the Mormon “revelation” can’t be found in the Bible. So any experiences that Ralph is having in the name of Mormonism are not generated by the Spirit that inspired the writing of God’s Word.
    Ralph’s experiences are either the result of his own psychic energy being released or by the spirit of the god in the heavenlies that goes by the name of Mormon or Moroni or as is shown in the BoA facsimile, the Egyptian fertility god Minn.
    In the Book of Acts there’s an account of a slave girl who was providing monetary gain for her owners because she had a familiar spirit who allowed her to tell fortunes. Paul called the demon out of her and it caused a riot because these spiritual experiences came to an abrupt end.
    So if Ralph wants to lay claim to a spirit that drives Mormonism, he will reap the consequences. I really don’t care how these experiences make Ralph feel or how he thinks they reinforce and prove what he wants to believe about Mormonism, it’s a bad choice.
    I would suggest that Ralph go back to the drawing board and read/study the Bible without the lenses of Mormonism on and discover who God really is.

  15. Mike R says:

    Falcon said, ” I would suggest that Ralph go back to the drawing board and read/study the
    Bible without the lenses of Mormonism on and discover who God really is.”

    Good advice. On one hand Ralph can’t be blamed for putting so much trust in his experiences
    that he believes confirms that he has the true gospel and worships the true God. This can
    be something we all could find ourselves relying on . The apostle Paul understood this attraction
    because men and women were no different in his day than they are today , hence he reminded his
    listeners that the gospel of salvation which he preached takes priority over spiritual /emotional
    experiences we may have that would direct us to believe some teaching about receiving salvation
    that is not in harmony with what Paul preached . That can be difficult because of how we are all
    wired to trust our feelings in the everyday affairs of our lives , but when it comes to listening
    to the preaching of prophets /apostles we are on much safer ground to compare their teaching
    with Jesus’ apostles like Paul. This is especially a valid criteria for us today given the number
    of prophets vying for our attention —Matt 24:11,24 . Mormon prophets/apostles are one
    example. Given that these alleged “modern-day” apostles claim that they have been appointed
    by the same Jesus who appointed Paul , and that they have preached the same gospel that Paul
    preached , since 1830, then it behooves us to compare gospels– Gal. 1:8, because all the good
    deeds done for others , all the sincerity and charity , can’t make up for embracing an imitation
    gospel. Gal 1:8 ; Jude 3 -4 .

  16. falcon says:

    I would guess that when Joseph Smith was leading his little band of treasure hunters around the country side at night, peering into his magic rock in order to find what they thought was buried in the ground, that they were all having a high old time. Despite the fact that they never found anything, just the process, the experience was enough to light their fire and keep them searching. Although they probably thought that finding the pot of gold was their goal, it actually was the task itself that provided the emotional juice that satisfied them.
    The whole thing was folly of course but that didn’t really matter to these true believing treasure hunters.
    It’s the same with modern day Mormons. They go to their temples seeking some sort of spiritual experience but they could get the same thing if they joined the Masonic Lodge. Many Mormons don’t realize that their sacred rituals came from the occult based Free Masons of which Joseph Smith was a member. He borrowed heavily from the Lodge for his religious rituals just like he borrowed from several other sources when he pasted together his religion.
    Mormons have traffic-ed in experience in order to find some emotional satisfaction which will in turn reinforce their faith in Joseph Smith’s religion.
    There is no Biblical source for Mormonism. Joseph Smith and subsequent Mormon apostles and prophets have had to work around that little inconvenience. One way of doing this is to declare the Bible unreliable and trade-in Biblical support for personal experience.
    Doing this will make anything work and for true believing Mormons it will do just fine.

  17. Mike R says:

    All of us can appreciate the importance of eating good food. Most people care about what’s
    in their food , if it contains any potentially harmful additives etc. The popularity of organic
    foods like bread is a good example. Not much difference with spiritual food. The scriptures
    are to us spiritual food , and when a prophet comes advertising to be supervised by God to
    dispense spiritual truths , food that is pure , accurate , we need to look beyond his claims
    and test those claims by looking for any man-made ingredients —additives that render his
    spiritual food unhealthy . Does’nt much matter if he is well meaning in offering his product or
    not, harmful is the end result . When it comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ there is no shortage
    of prophets and what they offer as His gospel . Mormon prophets offer one such gospel and
    they have claimed it to be pure as it comes from what they claim is the sole channel God
    uses to dispense His important spiritual truths to mankind— Mormon leaders with their
    priesthood authority. Mormon apostle Mark Petersen sums it up :
    ” Through him [Joseph Smith] the Lord restored the gospel in it’s purity , the church being
    re-established on earth in 1830 . Then came a succession of modern prophets to carry on the
    work…”[ Gen Conf. Oct. 1972 ].
    Mormon leaders claim that their restored gospel is the same gospel Paul preached , the spiritual
    truths he taught as necessary to be made right with God and receive eternal life –Rom 1:16.
    Since 1830 have Mormon apostles carried on with teaching the same gospel as Paul? Any
    man-made ingredients added?

  18. grindael says:

    Kate,

    I truly believe that Mormon leaders believe they “feel” their “Holy Ghost”. They get together, discuss things, and all of them feel warm and agreeable, and to them, that is their God speaking to them. This is how they described the “revelation” to lift the Priesthood Ban. But there is no way these men don’t know that the Church is a complete fraud. They have all the records. What we have of them shows perjuring “prophets”, “apostles” committing all kinds of crimes, including adultery, political bribery, immoral business practices, flagrant disregard for the law and hypocrisy in selling alcohol, tobacco all to make money, bribing of Supreme Court Judges, lying about so many things, like the practice of polygamy after the Manifesto, their claims of doctrine as “folklore” etc. etc. They are well aware of these things. Yes, the question is, how can they live with themselves?

  19. falcon says:

    grindael,
    Excellent post. It was good to hear your take on the ambiance these guys feel and attribute it to the “Holy Ghost”. I think this whole area is much abused and little understood. The problem is that people feel so “spiritual” as a result of the feelings they are experiencing. It’s really difficult to talk them out of their emotions because it’s quite pleasurable, rewarding and gives people a false impression.
    Mediums are really experts at staging and setting the mood in order to defraud people.
    I’m the sort who enjoys modern church services where the music is termed “praise and worship”. There is an opinion by some that God inhabits the praises of His people. I’ve seen some preachers go so far as to say that the Holy Spirit is drawn to an attitude of praise and worship suggesting that we can manufacture the environment within which the Holy Spirit will work. I don’t know about that. I do know something about audience psychology, mass hysteria and something known as conversion disorder.
    It can all be very manipulative and seducing.
    So when Mormons say that “I could really feel the spirit in that meeting” it has nothing to do with God, but stage setting. It’s kind of like dimming the lights, putting on some “mood” music and lighting some candles in order to create a romantic atmosphere.
    That’s why I suggest that people build their faith on God’s Word and look to the Scriptures to draw their conclusions.

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