A case of not willing to listen

Richard Mouw is probably best known for his seven-minute speech at the Mormon Tabernacle a few years ago that preceded a talk by Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias. Using half of his fifteen minutes of fame, Mouw apologized to the Mormons for ill treatment over the years by the Christian community. Meanwhile, his words upstaged the main speaker, as the media led off their broadcasts and articles with Mouw’s apology while relegating Zacharias’ excellent talk to nothing more than an afterthought.

Earlier this year Mouw wrote a reprehensible book called Talking with Mormons. Using this book as a basis, Peggy Fletcher Stack—a Mormon who writes about religion for the Salt Lake Tribuneinterviewed Mouw in the August 2012 Christianity Today magazine (“Quick to Listen”).

The article is filled with misrepresentations. For example, Mouw explains, “One thing that really upsets me is when evangelicals say, ‘We don’t have time for dialogue with Mormons and all the niceties. We have to stand up for the truth and denounce error.’” First of all, who has ever made such a statement? This is certainly a straw man logical fallacy. Christian apologists are generally willing to dialogue. At the same time, their desire is to stand for truth. If Mormons want to allow for the disagreement of ideas and rightly forego personal opinion while correctly defining Mormonism as taught by the LDS leadership, the Christian apologist is more than happy to accommodate. However, the Christian should not allow for “dialogue” where this disagreement is allowed to be nothing more than superficial.

In the article, Mouw continued, “They (Christian apologists) fail to recognize that if we are to be people of the truth, we need to be sure we are criticizing Mormons for what they really believe, lest we commit the serious sin of bearing false witness against our neighbors.” He also insinuates that these Christians “tell (Mormons) what they believe.” The Christian apologists I know don’t just take a Mormon theologian at his/her word about Mormon doctrine. Rather, they go to the primary sources—including the Standard Works, church manuals, and the teachings of leaders in general conference addresses—to define Mormonism. This is not “bearing false witness” since the Mormon theological structure is set up this way. While LDS scholars may disagree with their leaders, their opinions should not be taken as official doctrine, in any stretch of the imagination.

Mouw goes on, saying, “To be concerned about the truth means we ourselves better be sure we are being truthful, to listen to others and really understand before we tell them that they’re wrong.” To this, I reply, “To be concerned about the truth mean that you, Mr. Mouw, better be sure you are being truthful, to listen to what the actual leaders in charge of the church have said in their addresses as apostles and prophets as well as what they write on church web sites and in church manuals before you tell the Christian apologists that they are wrong in their assessment.” Caution needs to be given in bearing false witness against the Christian brethren.

Mouw then insinuates that the “working theology” of Mormonism is somehow different from “previous declarations.” For example, he believes that “the most important development in recent decades has been an increasingly strong emphasis on the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross.” Such a statement shows a complete naiveté of Mormonism. Just what makes him think that LDS leaders believe that the cross alone is what qualifies a person for the celestial kingdom? Just as recently as the July 2012 Ensign magazine, the church said that “a covenant is a two-way promise, the conditions of which are set by God. When we enter into a covenant with God, we promise to keep those conditions. He promises us certain blessings in return” (“Understanding Our Covenants with God,” 22).

Explaining the covenant of baptism, for example, the article said that “we covenant to take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ, to always remember Him, and to keep His commandments. We also promise ‘to serve him to the end’ (D&C 20:37; see also Mosiah 18:8–10).” If the covenant is broken on the Mormon’s end, then the covenant will not be kept by God. In other words, God will keep His end of the bargain only if the Mormon keeps his. How can Mouw be accurate when he told Christianity Today, “In the past, (Mormonism) put more emphasis on good works.” Does he even read current LDS manuals and magazines? Or is he merely hearing what he wants from his BYU professor friends?

Unlike the “Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientology, and Hare Krishna,” Mouw believes that Mormonism is not a cult because it does not emphasize “secrecy, duplicity, and a rigid ‘one true church’ mentality.” In his book, Mouw even claims that a group like the Mormons who believe in higher education should not be labeled as a cult. This make-up-a-definition-as-you-go mentality is self-serving. Certainly his view goes against Alan W. Gomes, who is a professor of historical theology at Biola University in California and a graduate of Fuller Seminary (where, until recently, Mouw served as president).

Gomes defines “cult” as “a group of people, which claiming to be Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system) denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of the Bible.” Among these central doctrines are “the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the atoning work of Christ on the cross, and salvation by grace through faith. These doctrines so comprise the essence of the Christian faith that to remove any of them is to make the belief system non-Christian.” Based on Gomes’ analysis, Mormonism most certainly is a cult.

When asked about Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith, Mouw says the character of Smith should not be scrutinized. Rather, a person should consider “the central issue of what Mormons have taught about sin, redemption, and the person and work of Jesus Christ.” While he believes some LDS teachings are “off the charts,” he believes that these doctrines “contain some elements of biblical orthodoxy.” As far as sin, Mormonism teaches that “Adam sinned that men might be.” Mormonism teaches that “redemption” allows for the general resurrection of all humankind but cannot, by the grace of God alone, allow a person into the celestial kingdom without works. And Mormonism teaches that the person and work of Jesus Christ alone is not efficacious for a person to receive exaltation. To the contrary, Mormonism gets it wrong on all accounts involving essential doctrines.

In the article’s last line, Mouw states, “Instead of just criticizing religious movements and their founders, we need to understand their teachings and the communities built around them.” However, it is the teachings of Mormonism that leads to the criticism of this religious movement and its founders, not the other way around. By respectfully disagreeing with our Latter-day Saint friends, Christians want the very best for them. However, pretending that Mormonism is close enough to Christianity is nothing less than damnable for those who are not being properly challenged. Yes, we can have relationships with Latter-day Saints, but not at the high price of allowing these fine folks think that the religion they follow is somehow close enough to the biblical original.

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59 Responses to A case of not willing to listen

  1. falcon says:

    OK, so what’s Mouw’s game? I think the article pretty much takes apart his claims. Christians who are serious about this work don’t make things up about Mormonism or misrepresent what the religion believes. What would be the point of that?
    The problem is that Mormonism poses a moving target. In-other-words, the religion can’t seem to get a good handle on what it believes. Progressive revelation is a good excuse for accepting a current pronouncement while holding to an opposite view earlier.
    We need to go no further than the subject of polygamy for an example.
    The other thing that Mouw doesn’t seem to address is the blatant dishonesty with which Mormons present their religion. They sin by omission, not telling prospects the real basic information regarding, for example, the nature of God.
    The other things that are routinely hidden is the magic rock trick Smith used to supposedly translate some golden plates he found, Smith’s et al practice of polygamy and the reasons behind it, and the belief that Mormon men plan on becoming gods and their wives goddesses.
    Just last night I was having dinner with some friends and the wife asked about the basic differences between orthodox Christianity and Mormonism. Her jaw about hit the table as I explained (the differences).
    The other problem of course is that Mormons jump on the persecution wagon when ever the religion is exposed as to its basic beliefs. It ‘s a technique used to get folks who know the truth about Mormonism, to keep quiet.
    Christians aren’t the real problem for Mormons. Their real problem is former Mormons who knowing the truth about the religion and the culture, are not shy about expressing themselves.

  2. parkman says:

    “we need to be sure we are criticizing Mormons for what they really believe”
    I have seen a lot of people teach falsehoods about our beliefs and teachings. Even after one of you accepts that you have been wrong and stop teaching that idea, many more keep right on teaching that false teachings about the LDS Church.
    It would be nice if you folks would teach us what you believe and not spend your time putting down what you think we believe.

    “Just what makes him think that LDS leaders believe that the cross alone is what qualifies a person for the celestial kingdom?”

    This shows the author’s miss understanding about how the “Mormon Heaven” works. We are all resurrected, like the rest of you, because of what Christ finished on the cross. How we lived our life determines which mansion we are assigned to after we get to heaven. The cross does not determine how we will praise God after we get to heaven.

    Why should I believe in your idea of orthodox Christianity when there are so many others teaching that their idea of orthodox Christianity is more true than yours is?

  3. Mike R says:

    Parkman, that last sentence of your’s was a good question. Perhaps I might ask you this same
    type question, such as : Why should I believe in your idea of orthodox Mormonism when
    there are so many others claiming to be faithful followers of Joseph Smith teaching that their
    idea of orthodox Mormonism is more true than yours ?
    I’m sure your answer would be that you have an inner witness , a testimony, that your brand
    of Mormonism is the only true one . ( I personally would reject today’s version of Mormonism
    because it has moved away from what it once was —much closer to the Bible’s description of
    God, salvation, etc. An apostasy perhaps ? )
    In fact , years ago I looked into the exclusive claims by Mormon authorities to be the one only
    true Church with the only true followers of Jesus , with the only true gospel of salvation. Quite
    the claim ! Since I had the written record of Jesus’ original apostles which takes us to about the
    end of the first century, I compare that to the Latter day apostles of Mormonism , those men
    who were disciples and mentored by J.S. and who carried on leading the church after his death.
    These men died near the end of the 19th century ., their teaching and preaching went far and
    wide even overseas . These are the giants of the faith whose shoulders today’s Mormon leaders
    stand on . So I compared these two sets of apostles as per 2Cor 11:13 and Matt 24:11.
    I found that Mormon leaders were accusing other christian churches/leaders guilty of such
    things as : changing the true gospel; [cont]

  4. Mike R says:

    cont.
    of being undecided/confused over important gospel truths such as what is a gospel ordinance
    and how to administer it ; of being inconsistent , unstable, as guides in teaching spiritual truths ;
    of mixing in their own human ideas onto the gospel and then advertising it as “divine direction”
    or ” gospel preaching “, thus altering the true gospel of salvation preached by Jesus’ apostles .
    In short a pattern of teaching for doctrine the commandments of men . Many of these men
    were said to be sincere . Incredibly, I found that Mormon leaders were guilty of similar
    behavior themselves !!! I therefore dismissed their claims to being the only true channel of
    communication that God uses to relay His important spiritual truths to mankind through .
    Their claim of “authority” from Jesus to be His modern-day apostles that I need to submit to
    in order to be forgiven and accepted by God and receive eternal life , was an empty claim .

    I hope that you will come to see that the allegiance you render to the men who allegedly
    restored Jesus’ gospel is misplaced . You have been detoured into following them but there is
    a better way. It’s not a testimony of a church but a testimony of a person who is the Way
    the Truth and the Life . The N.T. does’nt teach that the name on a church building
    constitutes Jesus’ true body of believers . It does teach that a complete salvation is
    readily available to anyone who places their trust in the Savior that it reveals . Many
    denominations? That would be expected given man’s nature ,but all are obligated to study
    Acts17:11

  5. parkman says:

    @ Mike R
    You did a very good job of taking my question, ignoring it, and then going on to tell me why I am wrong.
    To answer an earlier question of mine, all evidence from what I see here is that you are more interested in telling me why I am wrong then telling me why you are correct.

    @ anyone
    I was just reading in John chapter 17. If I were to accept your definition of God as you claim in the Trinity I would have to conclude that all the people who will be resurrected will be one being, as you believe the Godhead to be. As they are one, we will also be one. As He is in Him and They are in each other, we will also be in eachother. There will be two beings in heaven, God and us.

    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    (New Testament | John 17:11‎)‎

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    (New Testament | John 17:21‎)‎

    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    (New Testament | John 17:22–23‎)‎

  6. Rick B says:

    Mike R,
    Dont you just love How Parkman ignores your question of why His brand of Mormonism is correct over all the other branches of Mormonism? Typical Mormon, he tends to ignore these questions, probably because he cannot answer them.

  7. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    Here’s your chance buddy. Give us a list of the things that are taught about Mormonism by Christian apologists that don’t represent what (Mormonism) teaches. Rick and I have asked for years for Mormons to tell us what we’ve said about Mormonism that isn’t correct. We’re still waiting. But come-on. You do it.

    Hee, hee you are giving me a good LOL with your thoughts on what John writes. Please stop! You’re embarrassing yourself. Is it any wonder that you swallow what the Mormon church teaches. I’m not even going to try and straighten you ought because you’ve demonstrated that you have absolutely no ability to process information.

  8. Rick B says:

    Falcon,
    you got Parkman nailed correctly. He wont even talk about JS false prophecy’s since he feels no matter what he says, I have a response, and he cannot handle that.

    Sad part is, God in D and C said, all his prophesy’s will come to pass, no excuses. Yet since Parkman does not believe his own scripture, he changes them to fit his needs. Like I told him, this is not an arcade, dont come here to play games. Either responded to questions or dont. But if you dont, then your not helping your cause by claiming we tell people what mormons believe, we get it wrong and dont have a clue, but then when we ask for the facts, you try playing games and making excuses as to why you wont tell us.

  9. Mike R says:

    Parkman , I think rather than ignoring your questions about me I have to suspend that and
    help you understand the peril you’re in by submitting to false prophets . After you can see
    your situation then it can be beneficial to share my beliefs about God / Jesus etc otherwise
    your alleged ” authority” as a Mormon male prevents you from taking what I would say
    seriously. False prophets divert people , once you’re free of this diversion you will better able
    to meditate on the Bible’s truths, simply dismiss your apostles and replace them with the one’s
    Jesus actually did appoint to preach , it will life changing . You said that I am telling you why
    you are wrong and then imply that’s all I’m interested with . Wrong. I’m telling you as one
    who is no better than yourself , of Jesus’ warning about false prophets coming in the LATTER
    DAYS —Matt 24:11– and you my friend have been diverted by one , plain and simple. Now
    does that make you a evil or defective person ? By no means . Good , decent , people (LDS)
    can be misled by false prophets , hence the warning in the N.T. for all to “Beware” . We have
    been told by Mormon authorities that to have a right relationship with Jesus is contingent on
    confessing that Mormon prophets are sent by God , that to refuse this is to be an “anti-christ”!
    That , coming 2000 years after Jesus’ sent out His apostles to preach the gospel of salvation ,
    is absolutely ridiculous .
    Anyone: Mormon leaders have used the term “trinity” , so compare their teaching about God
    with the Father,Son,Holy Ghost as revealed in the Bible

  10. Mike R says:

    Rick, yes I noticed . May God open his eyes to see the simple truth about a personal, complete,
    relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ . He is the prophet to end all prophets because He is
    able to save Parkman to the uttermost if he comes to Him —Heb 7:25

  11. Mike R says:

    Who is the Creator, the framer and maker of this earth ?
    a Bible prophet taught: it’s The Lord God —Nehemiah 9:6
    a Mormon prophet once agreed — D&C 20:17
    But these were dead prophets . In 1873 the “living prophet” relayed new light from God
    about this belief :
    ” Father Adam came here and then they brought his wife . ‘ Well says one , why was Adam
    called Adam ? He was the first man on the earth and IT’s FRAMER and MAKER …..”
    [ the “living” prophet Brigham Young preaching in 1873 ]

    Mormon leaders have promised that the safe ground to be on is to follow the living prophet
    and receive his spiritual guidance , that he will NEVER teach false doctrine , or allow such to
    be passed on to his flock by those serving in leadership under him.

    Jesus warned to beware of false prophets in the latter days .

  12. parkman says:

    @ rickb
    I got caught in the maximum of 6 posts before getting to your answer at “I don’t always agree with the Book of Mormon…”.
    Since you did not like the first part of the answer, I have shown now how you will prove the Bible to be false if you truly make the same assumption about the Bible as you do about God’s new scriptures.

    @ miker
    All I here you saying is that you cannot or will not tell me why your brand of Christianity is correct; and you cover that up by attacking my beliefs and my desire to get you to stay on subject. You can “help you [me] understand the peril you’re in by submitting to false prophets” more by telling me why the teachers who won the argument about why your idea of the nature of the Godhead is more correct then the teachers that lost the vote because they believed the Godhead was more than one being.
    Will you keep refusing to answer this question about the key stone of your beliefs; it is as if you do not have the answer and you do not want to examine it.

  13. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    You are really stuck on this idea of the correct brand of Christianity. Are you paying attention? We’ve given you the answer but for some reason you are unable to process the information.
    You also wrote:
    “…..I have shown now how you will prove the Bible to be false if you truly make the same assumption about the Bible as you do about God’s new scriptures.”
    What kind of reasoning is that? Under your approach anyone claiming to have a new revelation and new scripture would be considered legitimate. There has to be a criteria by which “new” prophets, revelation and scripture are to be judged.
    Mormonism isn’t even a distant cousin of Biblical Christianity. It’s another religion. Mormon use of the Bible is just window dressing to make people think it (Mormonism) is a form of Christianity. You may as well shelf that idea because there is nothing in the Bible to support any of the notions contained in the Mormon gospel.
    I, and others I’m sure, grow a little weary pointing out the obvious to you.
    I think you need to go and read some testimonies of former Mormons to see what finally made the light bulb go on. As it is we are on a treadmill with you until you reach the point where you can actual process what’s being said here.

  14. falcon says:

    So what test does Parkman want us to apply to the Bible that we are applying to the BoM? Should we do an archeological test? A linguistic test? A DNA test? What’s the standard for proving that the BoM is an actual history of an actual people?
    Well here’s the test. How did you feel when you read the BoM. Did the story make you feel good? If it made you feel good then that is a testimony from God that it is true. If you didn’t get the “knowing” feeling, then you have to keep reading the BoM until you get it. Generally, if you’re not experiencing some emotional turn-on then you either haven’t prayed fervently enough, you haven’t humbled yourself or perhaps there is sin in your life blocking your reception of the feeling. None-the-less a, “I don’t get the knowing feeling” is not acceptable. The only acceptable response is I believe it.
    It’s interesting that the Community of Christ Mormon sect has kind of run up the flag of surrender on the BoM. They give their members the option as seeing the BoM as a “spiritual” book rather than an actual history of actual events.
    When you’re stuck with a man with a magic rock who put it in his hat to get revelation of this new scripture, it kind of has a problem passing the smell test.

  15. Mike R says:

    Parkman, when you state that I’m “attacking” your beliefs that tells me you’re probably
    not really interested in what I have to say . I sense that you’re trying to move the spotlight
    away from the claims of Mormon leaders. I mentioned before that my beliefs are not the
    result of some “teachers ” long ago voting on a particular doctrine ( the Trinity). I believe
    that the Trinity is revealed in the N.T. It was taught before any such voting even occurred .
    I have no problem with early Christian leaders trying to define it in order to combat those who
    were challenging it , but today I confine my beliefs to what the Bible reveals about God.
    The Bible teaches there is only one Creator , the Lord God Almighty. The Bible reveals that there
    is a person called the Father who is God , there is a person called the Son who is God,and
    a person called the Holy Spirit ( Holy Ghost ) who is God . Each of these three has the
    attributes of God , yet the Bible states there is only one true God, our Creator . Now men have
    always wanted to go deeper than that in trying to understand this doctrine but we’re only
    accountable for the Bible’s testimony . The problem is when certain men arise and seek to define
    God in a way that alters this description of God , they go beyond the boundaries the scriptures
    set , they ” look beyond the mark ” [ Jacob 4:14] as it were . Mormon prophets have succumbed
    to this by teachings about God not promoted in the Bible, yet they still claim to have the true
    trinity. So we test that claim

  16. Mike R says:

    False apostles are nothing new , they have in common a claimed authority to relay spiritual
    truth from Jesus to mankind, they mimic Jesus’ true apostles as recorded in the N.T. so a
    test is in order to evaluate their claim. Since false apostles are around today , we have the
    benefit of utilizing the Bible , especially the N.T. as the criteria to evaluate these men, this
    is only logical since most of these are well meaning imitators of Jesus’ original apostles and
    claim the same Jesus appointed them to teach His truths in these latter days. So we have to
    do the right thing and test Mormon apostles. Mormon apostles ever since their alleged
    appointment by Jesus have boldly announced their ability to provide a consistent and
    reliable service as spiritual guides to their flock. They took every opportunity
    to denounce the other churches of their day as being unfit to reveal God’s truth to man as
    they only relied on “dead” prophets . But God had raised up “living” prophet to dispel false
    teachings about Him hence Mormonism’s living prophet alone interprets the mind of God
    and therefore relays His will for all LDS so Mormons have been promised that their
    prophets will never teach false doctrine or allow it to find a home in their flock . Do Mormon
    leaders bring clarity to what the Bible reveals about God as they claim ? Examples:

    – God the Father a married man ruling and procreating with His wives in heaven.
    – God the Mother(s)
    -God not always God
    – 3 Gods in the Trinity
    -only worship God the Father
    -Adam as God fathered Jesus

  17. Mike R says:

    Parkman, if you choose to respond this what I have shared then do us both a favor , take a
    Bible and concordance and locate these teachings in the Bible . I’m not interested in any
    link to a Mormon apologetic site , I have not done that for my part for this topic I have only
    used what Mormon leaders themselves have written and taught . I’m interested in your
    looking at this , and please understand that if you don’t believe that the Bible teaches these
    Mormon doctrines that’s fine because your entitled to your opinion , but if you wish to
    convince me that I can trust Mormon apostles to be actually directed by Jesus for these
    latter days then I feel these doctrines should not be obscured but clearly delineated in
    the Bible.

  18. parkman says:

    @ falcon
    All I am saying is that you should use the same test on the Bible that you use to prove modern scripture wrong and when the Bible also fails the test you should decide if the test is a good test or not.
    Check back to “I don’t always agree with the Book of Mormon…” for an example of how your bad tests will prove the Bible false.

    As far as I am “stuck on this idea of the correct brand of Christianity”, yes I am paying attention. All I get from you and others here is that if I read the Bible and agree with you then I will become a Christian. I find that the rantings of exMormons are as nonconvincing as the rantings of exChristians. What other proof do you have that you are right?

    @ Mike R
    In among your narrative about why Mormons are wrong you have given a partial answer to my question. It is not enough information to get a good idea of what your idea of “Christianity” should be; I wish you would get unstuck on needing to teach what you believe the wrongness of the LDS Church is when I keep asking you to teach what is the rightness of your understanding of Christianity.

    Don’t forget, by your definition of the Godhead, the Bible teaches that you and I will be one being after resurrection, just like Jesus and Father are one being.

  19. Mike R says:

    Parkman, the reason I’m here is that I have a love the Mormon people , they are striving
    to follow God, but sadly they have been convinced to follow a false prophet. What their
    prophets and apostles have taught has been so foreign to the Bible in many areas .
    It’s important to note that even Mormon authorities have rightly admitted that to embrace
    false doctrine about God places a person’s salvation in danger . This is why Jesus warned of
    false prophets coming , especially in the latter-days —Matt 24, and that is why I (we) are hear.
    It’s not the Mormon people that is the problem , they’re great, rather it’s MormonISM that’s
    the problem. That’s why I am “stuck” on warning the Mormon people to Beware[Matt7:15] .
    First we evaluate the teachings of Mormon leaders , in this case about God, then we might
    go on IF you agree these men have not been exclusively appointed by God to be His
    sole channel for trustworthy spiritual truth about God. I don’t follow a man who claims to be
    God’s mouthpiece on earth , the king over God’s earthly Kingdom . The spotlight is on
    the claims of Mormon leaders , not me . You’re getting the cart before the horse here. My
    beliefs?I’m ok with MRM’s statement of faith [ “Where we Stand” ,see under ” About MRM”].
    Mormon Missionaries with their alleged “authority come to my door not to be taught, but to
    teach , teach that my beliefs are false about God , including the Trinity since they have the
    true Trinity . Sorry. Concerning “one Being” : your attempting a strawman argument.
    Instead ponder D&C20:19 : who is to be worshiped?

  20. Rick B says:

    Parkman,
    Many times you and other LDS here on this board have both accused us believers of attacking your beliefs and or not knowing what we are talking about. So as far as the claim, we dont know what we are talking about, you and other LDS do a lousy job of “correcting us”. We quote your prophets, presidents, Scripture and many other sources. Yet despite using your sources, you guys never sem to give a good reply, it’s more a “Ya But” The Bible…

    Or “Ya But” Your wrong and misunderstood what was being taught, while not telling us what we missed. Then as far as “attacking” Your beliefs, Were simply doing as your prophets and scriptures teach, are you aware of these teachings?
    pg 188 of Doct of Salvation vol 1.

    Joseph F Smith. “CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. MORMONISM, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. Their is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed: his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false”.

    Why is it if we do this we get accused of attacking your church? But on the other hand, you guys also accuse us of not listing to your prophets and following the advice of your leaders. Seems a double stranded. If we listen to them, we get in trouble, if we dont listen to them, we get into trouble.

  21. Rick B says:

    Parkman,
    Here is more from your leaders.
    D and C 71:5-11 98:14,23-26 it says meet your enemy in public.
    If I am your enemy which I don’t feel I am, but if I am it says meet me in public to talk about this stuff.

    Jesus said love your enemy.
    D and C 66:7 68:1,9 go into the church’s public or private to discuss this stuff. D and C 6:9-11 say convince us of our error if we have any. why do I get accused of being hateful for doing what the scriptures teach. now let me add this, would you agree it is good to listen to the Mormon prophets? if so, then I am.

    I quote Orsan Pratt still pg 15.

    we ask from you the same generosity–protect us in the exercise of our religious rights–CONVINCE US of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of god, and we will be ever grateful for the information, and you will ever have the pleasing reflection that you have been instruments in the hands of God redeeming your fellow beings from the darkness which you may see enveloping their minds

    .

  22. parkman says:

    @ Mike R
    All it says in “Where we Stand” is that you believe you are right and there is no support group, other than those who believe like you, with the authority to tell you that your thoughts are wrong. Since you do not believe anyone who does not believe like you, you will always be right. I can understand why you rather tell me why I am wrong rather than review why you think you are right.

    Hint, you might want to compare what non-Mormon teachers are saying about the “true teachers” at and referenced by MRM to what you say about others.

    Why do you not believe the Bible when it says that those who are saved by Jesus will be one being like Jesus and God are one being. It is your belief in the doctrine of the Trinity that defines how
    God and Jesus are and it is the Bible that says we will be one like God and Jesus are. You and me and falcon and kate and tom and dick and harry will all be one being, if your beliefs are true.

    @ rickb
    With all your babble, you still have not committed yourself to saying that you would be willing to say you have a bad test when I show you how your test is bad.

  23. Mike R says:

    Parkman, You asked me what I believed so I directed you to MRM’s statement of Faith
    [ “Where We Stand “] as an example of what I consider to be true doctrines , then you
    mention something about there not being any support group with the authority to correct
    me if I’m wrong etc. My local church [ Pastor, Elders] is where I would primarily receive
    correction of this type . Then you said ” Since you do not believe anyone who does not
    believe like you, you will always be right.” Not really . But that does sound like it could be
    a Mormon mind-set since some of your leaders have said that you are the only true Christians.
    Now let me say that it is getting old observing your attempt to take this dialogue down a long
    rabbit trail by mis- stating what I believe about something relative to the Trinity and then hope
    I fall for that . You’re stuck on this and that’s unfortunate , but Mormon leaders have already
    determined that my ” brand of Christianity” is false and my mind darkened to the truth about
    God , so you’re a little late . We’re hear to examine the claims of Mormonism to be the one true
    Christian faith /gospel/church , and to help seekers know the rest of the story that the Mormon
    Missionaries don’t tell them . Mormon leaders have not been appointed by Jesus to teach the
    truths about God and salvation, an understanding of these truths sufficient for salvation are
    in the Bible for all today.Warnings are also: Gal1:8 ; 2Cor11:4

  24. falcon says:

    Parkman you wrote:
    “Why do you not believe the Bible when it says that those who are saved by Jesus will be one being like Jesus and God are one being. It is your belief in the doctrine of the Trinity that defines how
    God and Jesus are and it is the Bible that says we will be one like God and Jesus are. You and me and falcon and kate and tom and dick and harry will all be one being, if your beliefs are true.”

    Forgive me but are you totally clueless? Is it any wonder you are a Mormon? That is such a bizarre notion you are promoting that it’s really difficult to take you serious. Do you have any understanding at all what the Bible is saying? Is it any wonder that you will believe anything that the LDS church puts out?
    What in the world do you think that passage of Scripture is really saying? I don’t know if I should waste my time trying to explain it to you. I’ll give you a hint.
    Jesus is talking about the “unity” of the Body of Christ. That’s all the further I’m willing to go with you.
    You couldn’t possibly be as ignorant of the proper exegesis of the Biblical text as you are displaying. You must simply be a troll.

  25. Mike R says:

    There’s the rather silly question Parkman asks above about “one Being ” . But then there is
    the serious question LDS can ask themselves : Who is the only Being they are told
    to worship in D&C 20:19 ?

  26. falcon says:

    Mike,
    This is really, to me, just plain stupid!
    Sorry, I shouldn’t be like this but I just get so exasperated with people taking something from the Bible and making an inference that is so out in left field that it’s dumb. That’s how aberrant religious “movements” and fringe sects get started and quite frankly there’s no excuse for it. It’s all based on these “unique” Biblical interpretations, “visions”, “revelations”, “a word from the Lord” and often times a supposed visitation from some form of spirit being.
    Over the years I’ve posted numerous links for people to go and visit sites that promote these ideas. Here’s one:
    http://www.parishretreat.org/index.php?id=story
    This one should be of interest to Mormons since the woman who initiated this movement was a Mormon
    The problem for Mormons is that if they did some independent study, they won’t stay Mormons. There are those who can keep layering excuses on upon another to try and explain away the obvious. The bottom line is the desire to want to believe something makes it true. Desire fueled emotion is something that is very difficult to over come with logic and evidence.
    It’s obvious that when it comes to Mormonism, Parkman just doesn’t think straight. He hasn’t had his “ah ha” moment yet. He may never have it. In the mean time we will be getting a flow of nonsense until he grows weary and shuffles back to the ward.

  27. falcon says:

    Here, for those who don’t want to point and click.

    “Cora Louise Evans was born in 1904, and she passed away March 30, 1957. Her first mystical experience, an apparition of the Blessed Mother, was at the age of three. Many years would pass before she understood the vision. It is the lead story in the autobiography of her mystical life, Captain of the Ship.
    She was raised a Mormon and was married at the well-known Mormon temple in Salt Lake City. That event was the turning point in her life. She left the secret ceremony disenchanted with Mormonism, especially the doctrine that placed man-made gods above the God of Abraham. She began a ten-year search for the truth, which culminated with her conversion to the Catholic faith.
    The life story of Cora Evans, wife and mother, is that of a remarkable mystic who practiced Christian virtues (faith, hope and charity) and earned a reputation for holiness. Cora’s gifts of mysticism: the odor of sanctity, suffering the wounds of Christ – stigmata – and magnificent writings are not, in and of themselves, sufficient grounds for the declaration of sainthood. It is the story of her life with the proof of heroic virtues that place everything else in context.”

    There, her story is at least as good as Joseph Smith’s wouldn’t you say? How can we judge this as being the real deal or not? Well if it makes you feel good it’s the truth. So if it makes one person feel good as a confirmation from God and an inner witness and a “knowing” and another person doesn’t get this (confirmation), then what? In the mean time, we should at least be able to call her a prophet shouldn’t we? She’s at least a mystic.
    What’s the criteria for determining the truth?

  28. parkman says:

    Other then you believe the same as he does, why is your paster a true teacher?

  29. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I think it was evident from early on that he was’nt really too interested in testing the
    doctrines of his prophets/apostles with the Bible ‘s . If he is so concerned with the “Trinity”
    being a man made doctrine then he has to address why many of leaders used that very term
    to teach their doctrine of God . It’s interesting that Mormons would rather use the term
    “Godhead” . It would be easier for the Mormon hierarchy to add more Gods instead of
    just keeping the three in their Trinity. Since Mormon leaders have taught that God the
    Mother is a Divine Goddess with glory like unto her husband she might be the front runner
    for the next Deity added to the Mormon Godhead (that would make it a real family affair).
    Adding Gods is’nt new in Mormonism. The real truth about God coming 2ooo years after Jesus
    established His church and His apostles spread the saving truths of His gospel to mankind ?
    We don’t need any “modern day ” prophets who introduce allegedly lost truths they say
    have been unavailable to mankind and which are directly related to one’s salvation and life
    in heaven with God . Gal.1:8 -9 was written to aid us today also in how to identify any
    counterfeit gospels. The Mormon people deserve to be free from their apostles and come
    to realize that a complete relationship with God is available by coming to Jesus and allowing
    Him to direct their lives back from the detour they have been following . May they ask Jesus
    to help them today.

  30. parkman says:

    f man
    Are you saying that the part in the Bible that says you and I will be one with Christ, as Christ and God the Father are one is not true? This is an example of you ignoring the parts of the Bible you do not like. Remember it is you who wants to apply your definition of how the trinity works to the Bible, so your definition should be true in the entire Bible. You just change the meaning of the when same activity does not conform to your wishes.

    We can swap stories about people who leave the Church and why they do. Here is someone who found his way back to God’s Church after doing his study. Seems like all the stuff you talk about does not stand up to God’s truth with frank investigation. “The rest is history: How a Mormon scholar turned doubter, then believer” http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/54790798-80/bradley-mormon-smith-faith.html.csp

    Does it help you to ignore the truths I present by calling me an ugly monster that lives under a bridge?

  31. parkman says:

    @ Mman
    None of you have taken the time to explain why the winners of the fight over the definition “Trinity” were “true teachers”. Instead of getting my questions answered, your people call me names.

  32. Rick B says:

    Parkman,
    You are so bent on claiming the trinity is false, Yet your prophets once taught it, So explain these things.

    Some verses in the Book of Mormon that show the Trinity.

    Under the page that states “an account written by the Hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi” it says near the bottom of the page in my copy, “And Also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD”

    Question, how can Jesus be THE ETERNAL GOD, if He is a separate God?

    Now under the testimony of the 3 witnesses, it ends by saying, “And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen.”

    In the original 1830 edition, 1st Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father. Not only has this been changed from the oringal, but how can the Lamb of God (Jesus) be the eternal God?

    1 Nephi 11:32 1830 edition “And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God (Jesus), that He was taken by the people; yea, the everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.” Again the Son is called the Eternal God. why? also why the change or addition of words?

    Here is another very serious change, 1st Nephi 13:40 1830 edition. “And shall make known to all kindred’s, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved.”

    Now here in a more recent edition, 1920, 2 Nephi 26:12b says, “Be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal (cont)

  33. Rick B says:

    (cont)
    Eternal God.
    Mosiah 7:26
    26 “And a prophet of the Lord have they slain; yea, a chosen man of God, who told them of their wickedness and abominations, and prophesied of many things which are to come, yea, even the coming of Christ.”

    27 “And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth.”

    28 “And now, because he said this, they did put him to death; and many more things did they do which brought down the wrath of God upon them. Therefore, who wondereth that they are in bondage, and that they are smitten with sore afflictions?”

    In the verses Above we read that they killed people for teaching Jesus IS GOD, Not A God, But God.

    Mosiah 15
    1 “And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.”

    2 “And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son.”

    3 “The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son.”

    4 “And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.”

  34. Rick B says:

    5 “And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffered temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffered himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.”

    6 “And after all this, after working many mighty miracles among the children of men, he shall be led, yea, even as Isaiah said, as a sheep before the shearer is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.”

    7 “Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.”

    8 “And thus God breaketh the bands of death, having gained the victory over death; giving the Son power to make intercession for the children of men.”

    Again God is Jesus, Jesus is God.

    Mosiah 16:15
    15 “Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.”

    And LDS believe the trinity is a false teaching, your own book teaches it. Not to mention some changes to deny this were made between the 1830 and 1980 edition. Why?

    Know we read here in Alma, a Mormon Prophet claiming Jesus is the eternal God and their is only One God, not Two or Three or more.
    So stop crying about us believing in the Trinity, And explain why you claim false prophets and teachers taught this, when It is also your teachers and prophets that taught this. Maybe they are the false teachers.

  35. falcon says:

    Parkman wrote:
    “None of you have taken the time to explain why the winners of the fight over the definition “Trinity” were “true teachers”. Instead of getting my questions answered, your people call me names.”

    You definitely are not paying attention. I answered you fully a couple of days ago. I’m not going to plow the same ground with you. You’re not serious. You’re just playing games and revealing your ignorance repeatedly.
    We haven’t called you names. I said you were ignorant because you are. I also maybe called you a troll because you are. That’s not name calling. That’s describing what you’ve demonstrated here. So if you don’t want to be an ignorant troll I would suggest you get serious and do some real study and research and stop repeating the little ditties they teach you down at the wards.
    If you don’t want to be a troll then, as we all have suggested, write something of actual substance instead of trying to take the thread down some empty rabbit trails.

    You also wrote:
    “Other then you believe the same as he does, why is your paster a true teacher?”

    It’s been revealed to me. I know because it makes me feel good. I get shivers and shakes and sometimes it’s so intense that I roll around on the floor.

  36. Andy Watson says:

    Hi Parkman,

    You stated, “None of you have taken the time to explain why the winners of the fight over the definition of the Trinity were the true teachers.”

    As you know, when there is a fight there is always a winner and a loser. The winner has strengths and tactics that dominate over the opponent resulting in a victory. The winners in this fight over the Trinity were known as the early church fathers or patristic fathers namely Tertullian and Athanasius. The strengths were primarily and solely the Scriptures and not human reasoning or philosophical arguments. The Patristics won the heresy war against the Arian and the Saballein proponents because their teachings went against the Scriptures making these groups heretics. Both heresies are alive and well today. Modern-day Arians are the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Modern-day Sabaellians are Oneness Pentecostals. Another heresy is tritheism (three separate gods). Mormons are modern-day tritheists. All of these groups were cleary shown from the Scriptures to be in error and not in line with orthodoxy, thus resulting in their exclusion from Christian fellowship to this day. So, the resulting conclusion is that the Patristics were the true teachers because of their correct handling of the Scriptures arguing against the heretics. One single person didn’t boot these heretics out of the church. It was a large body of church leaders (bishops and presbyters) in complete agreement coupled with the approval of the local congregations.

    The fathers never heard of Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, they knew the heresy. When Arius stood up at the Council of Nicea and said that Jesus Christ was not equal to the Father in essence and nature and instead a creature, the fathers put their hands over their ears, screamed out loud and physically charged at Arius. Arius became a loser.

  37. falcon says:

    Thanks Andy.
    Your contribution here is very much appreciated. Now whether Parkman can even process the information is another question.
    Parkman has never been able to explain to us which sect of Mormonism is “true” Mormonism. We know that after Joseph Smith was shot there was a great deal of confusion among Mormons, as to who was suppose to be the new leader. At last count there are at least one hundred different sects of Mormonism all claiming having the real prophet and truth.
    I was recently in the Council Bluffs, Iowa area and visited a couple of Mormon historical sites. One such place was a representation of the tabernacle that was hastily built and in which Brigham Young and a couple of other Mormon leaders were sustained as the first presidency with Brigham Young the prophet. BY appears to have won the fight for leadership. Joseph Smith’s son eventually became the prophet of a rival Mormon sect that is was known at the time as the “Restored Church of Jesus Christ of LDS.”
    I was polite at each of the sites I visited because I was there to listen not to debate the tour guides. There were a couple of questions I would like to have asked and they probably aren’t the ones people might expect (that I would have liked to ask).
    I simply wanted to ask the Mormon tour guides, “If you were to die today and were to stand before Jesus and He were to ask you, ‘Why should I let you into my heaven’, what would you say?”
    That was the important question that the various councils inadvertently answered in the first four hundred years of the Christian Church because it was at these councils that it was reaffirmed as to who the (Church) knew Jesus to be.

  38. Andy Watson says:

    Parkman,

    Mormons misunderstand John 17 because their view of the godhead is tritheistic: three, separate beings. What further complicates this is their unbibilical view of the Father having a physical body just like the Son, yet the Holy Spirit doesn’t. Another key misunderstanding is the definition of what the word “one” means from the text in John 17. Mormons think of this as being physical when instead this is referring to spiritual union. Mormons also think of “one” as being one in purpose. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are more than just one in purpose. They are one in essence, nature, and Being. A good definition of the trinity in Christianity is this:

    Within the one nature of the one Being/God, there are three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-eternal, c0-substance, and co-essence.

    The Father and the Holy Spirit are not physical beings having flesh and bone as the Son, because it is the Son who took on humanity at the incarnation (John 1:14). The Son defined the Father as spirit (John 4:24) and a spirit does not have flesh and bones (Luke 24:39). Do you believe that members of the godhead are only one in purpose? If so, is it possible that the Holy Ghost would ever contradict what the Father or Son has already revealed? LDS prophets such as Wilford Woodruff and Joseph Fielding Smith don’t agree. Please show me one passage in the Bible or the BOM where it says that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate gods that are perfectly united only in purpose? John 17 shows that the Father and the Son are perfectly united in purpose, but never does it say they are separate gods.

  39. Andy Watson says:

    Parkman,

    I’m not sure what your spiritual background is or what biblical training you have had in Christianity if any at all before you became a Mormon. Maybe you have been a Mormon your entire life. At any rate, John 17 is affectionately known in Christianity as Jesus’ high priestly prayer on behalf of the church. Jesus’ earthly ministry is coming to a close and He is on His way to crucifixion where He will atone for the sins of His people. Jesus is praying to the Father. They are one in nature and essence; however, They are two different Persons.

    Understanding John 17 is understood by understanding the chapters that proceeded John 17. Namely, John 17:11 has to be understood in light of John 10:30. If Mormons are going to say that John 14:9 means that the Father has a body of flesh and bones, then in John 14:10-11 how can two physical bodies be inside of each other? John 14:9 has to be understoon in oneness: Jesus was united with the Father (Col 2:9). Jesus took on humanity (flesh, bones, and a human nature) at the incarnation. Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human as was declared officially at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Jesus Christ will have both a physical body and a human nature for all eternity when He chose to enter the world and become one of us to atone for our sins as the perfect sacrifice in bringing His people reconciliation with the Father.

    In John 17:11 Jesus prayed that all Christians would be united in the same way He and the Father were united. Notice the distinction in this verse between “they” and “We.” We do not share in God’s nature of divine deity. We share with Christ’s humanity.

  40. Andy Watson says:

    Parkman,

    I’m not sure what your spiritual background is or what biblical training you have had in Christianity if any at all before you became a Mormon. Maybe you have been a Mormon your entire life. At any rate, John 17 is affectionately known in Christianity as Jesus’ high priestly prayer on behalf of the church. Jesus’ earthly ministry is coming to a close and He is on His way to crucifixion where He will atone for the sins of His people. Jesus is praying to the Father. They are one in nature and essence; however, They are two different Persons.

    Understanding John 17 is understood by understanding the chapters that proceeded John 17. Namely, John 17:11 has to be understood in light of John 10:30. If Mormons are going to say that John 14:9 means that the Father has a body of flesh and bones, then in John 14:10-11 how can two physical bodies be inside of each other? John 14:9 has to be understoon in oneness: Jesus was united with the Father (Col 2:9). Jesus took on humanity (flesh, bones, and a human nature) at the incarnation. Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully human as was declared officially at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451. Jesus Christ will have both a physical body and a human nature for all eternity when He chose to enter the world and become one of us to atone for our sins as the perfect sacrifice in bringing His people reconciliation with the Father.

    In John 17:11 Jesus prayed that all Christians would be united in the same way He and the Father were united. Notice the distinction in this verse between “they” and “We.” We do not share in God’s nature of divine deity. We share in Christ’s humanity.

  41. Andy Watson says:

    Parkman,

    You stated: “If I were to accept your definition of God as you claim in the Trinity I would have to conclude that all the people who will be resurrected will be one being, as you believe the Godhead to be. As they are one, we will also be one. As He is in Him and They are in each other, we will also be in each other. There will be two beings in heaven, God and us.”

    I’m not sure if you were saying this “tongue in cheek” or actually serious, because one thing Mormons and Christians can agree is that the resurrection will be physical. It is absurd and pointedly ridiculous to assert that countless numbers (Rev 7:9) of resurrected believers in Christ who have physical bodies will be one being. I refer you back to what I said earlier regarding our spiritual union with God through regeneration. Christians are united to one another through spiritual union via the Holy Spirit in their lives. This is why Christians will refer to one another as brother or sister. You are not the same physical being as your father, mother, brother or sisters. You are a distinct person from them and from every other human being.

    Mormons fall off the orthodoxy wagon when D&C 130:22 asserts that the Father and Son have physical bodies making them two distinct “separate personages.” Mormonism becomes clearly tritheistic (three separate persons/gods) and LDS authoritative writings certainly declare that fact. It must also be understood that the term “resurrection” as defined by Christians and Mormons is very different. Our terms always have to be defined. Joseph Smith and other false prophets have incorporated Christian terminology with their heretical definitions replacing those of historical orthodoxy. The Bible defines my theology – not LDS false prophets.

  42. parkman says:

    @ Andy Watson
    I speak not of what the LDS Church teaches; I am trying to understand the religion you folks say I should work toward.

    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, “”.
    (John 17:11‎)‎

    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    ( John 17:21‎)

    In my statement and question about John 17:11 and John 17:21 I was not using LDS understanding of the Godhead, but was asking for an explanation based on your belief that the definition if Trinity is correct. What you say about “the distinction in this verse between “they” and “We” We do not share in God’s nature of divine deity. We share with Christ’s humanity.” is shown to be one more manmade definition to make the false definition of “Trinity” fit. You want God’s words to mean different things at different times.

    “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me”
    “that they may be one, as we are”

    By the definition “Trinity” this statement clearly says that resurrected men will be the same as God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. If you have trouble believing that you and I and falcon and mike and kate and tom and dick and harry will be one, you might want to reexamine the definition “Trinity” that was created by men. That is unless you are willing to keep makeing up different definitions for each time God uses the same words.

  43. falcon says:

    Parkman you wrote:
    “I speak not of what the LDS Church teaches; I am trying to understand the religion you folks say I should work toward.”

    Forgive me if I don’t give you high points for sincerity. I’ve really seen nothing in your posts that indicates you are trying to understand orthodox Biblical Christianity.

    This statement of yours proves what I say.

    ” What you say about “the distinction in this verse between “they” and “We” We do not share in God’s nature of divine deity. We share with Christ’s humanity.” is shown to be one more manmade definition to make the false definition of “Trinity” fit. You want God’s words to mean different things at different times.”

    This idea of “man-made” is a total red herring. If you really were sincere, you’d examine what Mormon prophets have taught and comprehend that they were talking out of there hats and just blowing smoke. There’s nothing inspired about these guys.
    The Bible clearly teaches who Jesus is. The Jews were monotheists. They believed in one God. Jesus said He was God and this is what the apostles taught. As time went by the Church Fathers, guided by the Holy Spirit, developed a vocabulary and language to explain how there are three distinct persons in the Godhead yet one God.

    I think Andy has done an exquisite job of explaining things to you. You’re not getting it. I think you need to pray and be humble and sincere before God. So far you’re not doing that and thus you’re not understanding what is being revealed to you here.

    I will pray that God remove the veil of deceit from your mind and that he deliver you from the oppressive spirit that has your mind in its grip.

  44. parkman says:

    Rick B

    “Parkman,
    You are so bent on claiming the trinity is false, Yet your prophets once taught it, So explain these things.”

    (Doctrine and Covenants 93:3–5‎)‎
    3 And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one—
    4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.
    5 I was in the world and received of my Father, and the works of him were plainly manifest.

    {{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}
    “We haven’t called you names. I said you were ignorant because you are. I also maybe called you a troll because you are. That’s not name calling.”
    I think my grandkids would say something like this to your definition.. LOL I would just say your words could gag a maggot.

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
    “You definitely are not paying attention. I answered you fully a couple of days ago. I’m not going to plow the same ground with you.”
    I remember you saying that you believed the victors to be true, but you never gave historical examplies of why they were right. You can give lots of examples about the LDS history yet you give insignificant examples of what you think to be true Christian history.

    {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
    “It’s been revealed to me. I know because it makes me feel good”
    Given what you and others here at this blog have said about feeling and revelations, your testimony has got to be false. (Not my belief, just what your definitions say)

  45. Rick B says:

    Wow parkman,
    I am impressed with your cutting and pasting skills.
    Yet again, you dont answer anything, Typical. And you wonder why we dont take you serious.

  46. parkman says:

    @ r
    I see you are deminstrating your skill of ignoring the truth eve when it is in front of you.

  47. falcon says:

    Parkman,
    So you have grand kids. Well that would suggest you are of adult age, which has been seriously in doubt. You sound like a high school kid who has taken over the family computer and stumbled on to this site.
    I think it’s time to “shroud” you because it’s evident you “don’t have game”. You certainly can’t detect irony or hyperbole in the written word.
    This site is for folks who actually have some knowledge, can process information and present a cogent argument.
    Andy Watson wrote you a book. You don’t have a clue what was contained in what Andy wrote. I would suggest you find yourself a nice Mormon blog where you can discuss the virtues of home canning and food storage.

  48. Rick B says:

    Falcon, Parkman might feel at home on the fairlds website or even wes Mormon h, blog, this way they can all hold hands and tell stories of how they know what they are talking about and how we dont.

    Again, Parkman claims the truth is in front of me, ignores my post, does not say anything but the truth is in front of me, and does not even explain what it is, and yet he feels like he replied to me. I guess if you believe lies long enough you start to think they are the truth.

  49. Mike R says:

    One God ?
    The Bible’s description of our Creator is that He is unique , there is only one true Almighty God.
    The Book of Mormon , which is said to clarify the Bible , teaches this same view of only one true
    God. Mormon apostles came on the scene to claim that everyone had got it wrong about God .
    Proudly proclaiming to be directly supervised by Jesus to reveal His important truths about
    God to mankind Mormons claim an inner witness that these new corrections are accurate
    concerning God’s identity. Mormon apostle Herber C. Kimball taught: ” I have learned by
    experience that there is but one God that pertains to this people, and He is the God that pertains
    to this earth…” So Mormon apostles do teach that there is one God but unlike Biblical prophets
    apostles they teach that this one God is really 3 separate Gods , each of whom are men and
    each of whom was not always God having been procreated by a heavenly man and wife .
    Mormon leaders early on felt that the Biblical terms , Father, Son, Spirit (Holy Spirit) should
    be rightly applied to their three Gods , after all He was the very same God who former prophets
    and apostles spoke of in the Bible etc. Relying on their inner witness to confirm their teachings
    Mormon leaders were not slow in providing their flock with fresh new insight about God , the
    dead prophets/apostles of Biblical times were fine then but now there was a living prophet to
    guide into new spiritual truths. One of these new truths was expressed in a Hymn used by the
    Mormon people in England as part of their worship [cont]

  50. Mike R says:

    The LDS Hymnal , ” Sacred Hymns and Spiritual songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
    Day Saints , p. 375 , the hymn: ” We Believe in Our God ” . This song taught about the Father,
    Son , and Spirit :
    ” We believe in our God the great Prince of His race,
    The Archangel Michael the Ancient of Days,
    Our own FATHER Adam ,the earth’s Lord, as is plain ,
    Who’ll counsel and fight for his children again.

    We believe in His SON , Jesus Christ , who in love ,
    to His brethren and sisters , came down from above ,
    to die to redeem them from death , and to teach ,
    to mortals and spirits the Gospel we preach.

    We believe in the SPIRIT most holy,that’s given
    From God ,our great Father, who dwells in high in heaven ,
    To instruct and enlighten , to comfort and cheer—-
    Tongues,dreams, visions , healings proclaim it is here.”
    [ p.16 of The position of Adam in LDS Scripture and History , by Mormon prof Rodney Turner]

    Because of his new insight from God , Brigham Young incorporated new truth into the
    Temple endowment ceremony . His ” trinity ” of creation Gods were Elohim, Jehovah
    and Michael. One God ? Three Gods ? People can look to God’s Word the Bible and see
    the One True Creator God and not be fooled by modern day false prophets and their three
    Gods

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