This year’s General Relief Society Conference for Mormon women was held in Salt Lake City on September 29th (2012). Evidence Ministries conducted a Christian outreach outside of the event, handing out packages of tissues to the women as they headed into the building for the conference. Tucked inside of each package was a small card with a picture on one side of a woman in despair and the other side presenting the words of Jesus from Matthew 11:28: “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Following the Bible verse on the card were web addresses for Evidence Ministries and four additional Christian websites that women could access if they chose.
In a recent video, Becky Walker of Evidence Ministries explained that she wanted Mormon women to know that “Jesus is the way out of all of the struggles that you face. That’s it’s not a church, it’s not a religion, it’s not an organization, it’s not a priesthood, it’s not anything other than a Person.”
The tissue packages were intended as gifts of love, but the Mormon women didn’t understand that. Blogging about the conference later, many women wrote about the surprise and dismay they experienced when they found their packages of tissues contained “anti-Mormon literature” in the form of a card displaying “an anti-Mormon quote.”
I don’t know why Mormon women would classify the words of Christ as “anti-Mormon,” bur I do have a theory about it. One woman wrote about tissue packages being “confiscated” by LDS security:
“When entering the conference center, the people who look through your purse to make sure you don’t have guns (or who knows what) asked if we had any of the tissues that were passed out. One of my relatives did and they told her that it had anti-mormon literature attached to it. The door person took the tissues from her and then asked me if I had any. I said no but then noticed the baskets of tissue they had ‘confiscated’ from other women.”
Another woman who attended the conference noted,
“When we got to our seats the usher asked us if we had gotten tissues from the ladies outside. We said yes and they told us to open them and look between the tissues and give them the card inside. The usher also told us that those ladies were anti-Mormon.”
My theory is that many Mormon women never even knew what (specifically) was inside the tissue packages or what it said on the enclosed card. Consider these two accounts told by Mormon women after the event:
“[Terri] was going through the security, the agent said ‘don’t open those, it has Anti-Mormon literature inside’. He took the tissue from Terri, showed her where it had been opened and pulled out their message they had discreetly put inside the tissues. He gave her the tissue back to use if she so wanted. When Terri told me this, I opened my tissues up and sure enough, there inside was their literature. I have no idea what it said, I just took out the card, folded it up and through [threw] it away.”
“I kept the card long enough to take the picture of it to share on this blog post but then ripped it up. I didn’t visit the sites even though I was curious for I knew that would be like opening the door to my heart and allowing Satan to walk right in, muddy shoes and all.”
I think many Mormon women were told that the tissue packages were “anti-Mormon” and so assumed that anything enclosed inside would be “anti-Mormon” through and through. These women didn’t question the Mormon priesthood-holders that confiscated their tissues and cards, they didn’t read the information in the packages, they didn’t visit the websites to see what the sites were about, they just threw away the gift that was offered in love.
When I heard about this outreach and how it was received, it brought to mind a scene from a musical production put on in Nauvoo, Illinois by the Mormon Church. I first saw “Rendezvous in Old Nauvoo” in 1993 at the Masonic/Cultural Hall in Nauvoo. Several scenes from this play have stuck with me. This particular one depicted an historical scene in which a non-Mormon discussed his concern over the Book of Mormon with a Mormon sympathizer:
“I wouldn’t touch that Book of Mormon with a ten-foot pole.”
“Why?”
“Because everyone says it’s false – even Ezra.”
“Oh, how would Ezra know? Ezra doesn’t even know how to read.”
“Well, he’s smart enough to listen to what other folks say, and Reverend Duberry says it’s a pack of lies.”
“Has he read it?”
“No! He’s not going to. He says it’s leading everyone astray.”
This scene from “Rendezvous in Old Nauvoo” was intended to communicate the idea that it is unreasonable–and even ridiculous–to dismiss something important on hearsay alone. Sadly, many of the women at the General Relief Society Conference did just that. They wouldn’t touch Jesus’ precious, healing words of hope with a ten-foot pole.
But Becky Walker won’t give up. In a letter she posted online for Mormon women to read, Becky explained, “We want you to know the easy yoke and the light burden that Jesus offers as a free gift. Won’t you ‘come unto Him’ today and ask Him to take your heavy burden?”
May Mormons everywhere reconsider and accept this precious gift of love.
A Bible verse as @nti-Mormon literature? Well actually the entire Bible is @nti-Mormon! I can’t imagine a gathering of Christian women where security would confiscate Mormon literature. The Mormon church treats women like children and this is a very good example. The LDS church is running scared.
“Following the Bible verse on the card were web addresses for Evidence Ministries and four additional Christian websites that women could access if they chose.”
Please list all of your church addresses so I can stop by and hand out tracts about where to find LDS and
@nti-@nti-Mormon websites. You know, I want people to know the truth what people have added to God’s Bible and call it true Christianity.
“I don’t know why Mormon women would classify the words of Christ as “@nti-Mormon,” but I do have a theory about it.”
My Theory 1. The company you keep outside the conference makes you look like the rest of the _____.
My Theory 2. The websites listed are @nti-Mormon websites.
The four additional “Christian” websites.
http://WWW.mrm.org, http://www.hishealingnow.com, http://www.trigrace.org, http://www.mormoninfo.org
Hishealingnow is the only one I cannot find the word cult used.
parkman says: Please list all of your church addresses so I can stop by and hand out tracts about where to find LDS
I get mormon.org commercials on my TV, on nearly every website I visit that has a faith-based message, and as featured videos on YouTube. I get it as Facebook ads. I see Mormon missionaries on the street. That IS what the LDS church does. Period.
Also, answer me this — a Mormon missionary comes to my door and I respond with “Oh, I’m a Christian already, no thank you.” The response isn’t, “oh, thank you for your time.” It’s — “but you’re not a Mormon.”
This is NO DIFFERENT. I don’t understand how you, or the Mormon church, can’t see that.
I have to tip my hat to Mormon women . They have struggled through a lot by following their
prophet. The hardship which entering polygamy brought them and the sacrafices they made to
endure that lifestyle because of their submission to a latter day prophet . But bright signs for
women have occurred recently as a change in the language used in a making a covenant which
women would recite to submit to their husbands ( in the Temple) was revised in 1990 to
that oath of obedience . Also, although some Mormon women have questioned their
leadership’s counsel in which communication with their Heavenly Mother is deemed to be
unacceptable Christian behavior , still the instinctive yearning that a women has in
seeking Her nurturing assistance is not lost on Mormonism’s hierarchy so this teaching
may very well be discarded soon . Truly , life in Mormonism’s elaborate church system for a
woman has been and continues to be a heavy load as they strive to be affirmed and “worthy”.
I think Mormon women deserve better .
I dont know if I should laugh or cry.
Mormons claim they have the true church and true gospel. LDS get mad when we say they are a cult. Parkman said on a prior topic, we allow people to view everything we believe, the records are open to see everything. Yet I pointed out as well as others this is not true, now we have the church not allowing people to think for themselves and telling people dont look at this info.
Why are you so scared to allow people to look at what is handed to them? If they did believe that the LDS church is wrong and left, what that to you? You cannot force them to believe what you do. I guess your wrong, the LDS church is not open about what they believe. At the very least they should allow people to read what was given to them, and then let them ask their husbands, boyfriends, fathers or the church to talk about it.
here is a novel Idea, why not allow them to pray about it? O-wait, that does not apply, it’s only ok to seek prayer on these things when it is them asking if the church is true, Not false.
“Why are you so scared to allow people to look at what is handed to them?”
This is the only place in mrm that there teachings can be questioned, and some of the questions are stopped before you are allowed to see them.
Parkman writes:
“I want people to know the truth what people have added to God’s Bible and call it true Christianity.”
Yea I’d like to know that too. Please tell us what has been added to the Bible by men. I’d appreciate the chapter and verse that’s been added.
Parkman also writes:
“Please list all of your church addresses so I can stop by and hand out tracts about where to find LDS and
@nti-@nti-Mormon websites. ”
You certainly aren’t very enterprising. I’m sure it wouldn’t be very difficult for you to find the addresses. How about we do this. Those of us who post here will arrange for you to come to the churches we attend and let you make a presentation on Mormonism. I think it would be quite enlightening to those gathered there. There could also be a question and answer period after the presentation.
Could we come to your ward and do the same?
Parkman said
Thats a pretty bold and maybe even wild accusation, Can you back that up.
Parkman said
Yes back this up. It’s funny how LDS say and believe that the Bible has had parts removed, yet they cannot tell us what parts were removed, why they have not been put back in, and why they claim to still use and trust the Bible. It was Shem that said they use the Bible and teach it for two years and trust it. So who is right, Him and it is trusted and used, or you and parts are missing.
Google, “changes in the Book of Mormon” and you will find all sorts of sources that document line-by-line what those changes have been. Ask if these changes effect “doctrine” as you examine the changes.
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/3913intro.htm
Google, “changes in Mormon doctrine” and you will also get a plethora of information.
http://4mormon.org/mormon-doctrine-covenants.php
This is why security at that Mormon women’s conference confiscated the cards that were handed out by the Christian group. Truth is the enemy of Mormonism. Even other Mormon groups don’t agree with the Salt Lake City denomination of Mormonism. They have their own prophets that have and are leading their flocks in a different direction.
False prophets produce false revelations which in turn produces false religions. Being exposed to the truth which runs contrary to the accepted cult narrative is painful and confusing. That’s why these women and others, are told it’s all Satan. The devil is leading them astray. Little do they know that the devil has already set-up this scenario to keep them trapped in a religion that is without spiritual redemption.
Knowing what these false religious groups have done in their teachings regarding the nature of God, of Jesus and His finished work on the cross, and the Bible is the first step towards freedom and salvation.
““I want people to know the truth what people have added to God’s Bible and call it true Christianity.”
So….it’s OK for Mormons to do that, but when Christians say the same for the Book of Mormon (added) and the Pearl of Great Price (added) and the Doctrines and Covenants (added)….it’s not OK.
Hypocrite much? lol
Think of what these Mormon women are counting on. They are counting, first and foremost, on a forever family. This is huge for a Mormon woman. This is especially so of women who have lost children through death. They will all be reunited in the Celestial Kingdom, they believe. It’s a very romantic and emotional notion. It’s also a spiritual trap! It’s a spiritual trap because the (trap) is specially constructed for the prey- women. It has irresistible bait. Eternal, forever families, living together in euphoric bliss and harmony. No death, no injury, no arguments and no conflict of any sort. Just pure familial harmony. It’s like having a forever Sunday dinner with smiling, happy family members all participating in true familial love and contentment. (I would guess that the Mormon woman wouldn’t have to cook the dinner and do the dishes……just a guess.)
So the Mormon woman works herself to death in the here-and-now to make this dream come true. Put on a smiling face even if you’re over-whelmed with all of the work and the feeling of never quite measuring up. And the more you try the more you fall short of the mark of expectations put on you by the religious system.
Let me show you a better way. His name is Jesus. He is the Truth, the Way and the Life. No one gets to the Father except through Him. Jesus is the One who provides for us eternal life. It’s not your husband who will resurrect you calling your secret name. Jesus is the resurrection. He is the life. It’s all on Him.
“Parkman said
This is the only place in mrm that there teachings can be questioned, and some of the questions are stopped before you are allowed to see them.
Thats a pretty bold and maybe even wild accusation, Can you back that up.”
You will have to ask the boss.
Whats really sad is how blind mormons are.
Examples, We giveinfo out like on these cards, LDS take them away and claim it’s wrong, yet they dont explain to the people why, they dont sit down and say, lets compare what they said to what we believe, They simply say, it’s wrong, trust us.
LDS claim things are missing from the Bible or have been added, we say back it up. How can they prove something was removed, since that would mean, if they could, then why has it not been added back in? If they something was added, then it would mean you using the Bible and not removing the part that has been added, why?
LDS claim Mormonism is reformed Christianity, Yet as Falcon keeps pointing out, where in the Bible, or the OT is Mormonism taught? Show us from History where it was taught 2000 plus years ago, cannot be done, show us where the vast majority of what Mormons today teach and believe is found in the BoM, it cannot be done, so they must rely on Revelation from the so called prophets.
I asked about why we find KJ English, word for word passages found in the Bible put in the BoM, you mean those guys spoke KJ English? I thought the golden plates were reformed Egyptian, so it seems reformed Egyptian translates into KJ English.
I point out their is no evidence from archeology over in Jerusalem for History of Mormons from the BoM, I hear their is none since they lived in the Americas, yet the BoM claims people like Lehi lived in Jerusalem in BC 600, so their should be evidence. Blind, very blind, and leading many millions to eternal damnation with these stories.
I think people are missing the big picture here, so let us try and put things into context, and actually think about this for a minute.
First, this was an LDS meeting. These women were gathering to worship how they have chosen to worship. They should be respected for that.
Second, the women handing out these tissue packets were not being forthright about what they were doing, but were trying to sneak things in. The only real purpose for this that I can see is to disrupt the meeting that was about to take place. If this was not intentional then there are far better ways to do things.
Third, since the cards were hidden one must ask how the guards knew they were there. It is obvious that someone found one of the cards and showed it to someone, and the word got passed along so that the ushers and security was able to ask the sisters about it.
So, what really happened is this: People, through some misguided idea of doing something for love, engaged in a strategy that was geared to disrupt the meeting of another faith. Someone caught on and spread the word, preventing it from happening. Now people are complaining about it and trying to put all the blame on us for wanting to worship in our own way, without others interrupting.
Question: Why did the women not wait until the conference was over and offer the cards to the sisters as they came out?
(I bet if they had many women would have accepted them)
Wow. The Church is even more committed to insulating its members than I realized. If “disparaging” websites are as flawed as the Church implies, then why doesn’t the Church address them directly? That would certainly eliminate the need to whisk away unflattering material. I pray that these efforts to prevent LDS women from viewing critical information about the Church will backfire. Sometimes hiding something just makes it more intriguing. God, obviously, can use that to His advantage. He is not frustrated by mere men. 🙂
“Second, the women handing out these tissue packets were not being forthright about what they were doing, but were trying to sneak things in. The only real purpose for this that I can see is to disrupt the meeting that was about to take place.”
In sales, this would be called a bait and switch scam.
THE TROLL
Yea Parkman, Mormons are experts at this so called “bait and switch scam” however you don’t know one it seems. A bait and switch scam is when someone promises one thing and then tries to deliver something else. That’s not what the Christian women were doing. They were handing out a useful item that included a Bible verse and some websites where the women could go for to learn more about the cult they are involved in.
I imagine the tissues would come in handy if the women ever figured out that the true bait and switch was with the LDS church that they are slaves to.
If I am reading Shematwater correctly, Shem’s whole view of the event (and defense of the authorities’ actions) is that the cards would have “disrupted[ed] the meeting”. Reasonably, IF it was to disrupt, then the actions of clearing out and keeping out the disruption was justified and reasonable.
But I don’t buy it. The “only real purpose” you, Shem, can think for the cards was to disrupt the event? How would these cards disrupt the event any more than an event itinerary? Surely you are not saying that the words of Jesus would cause an uproar? So that leaves the websites. Do you really think that at least some of the LDS women are not surfing on their phones, texting, or some other “disrupting” behavior during these events? So it can’t just be the surfing. So what is it?
Do you think that, if they had surfed and read, then they would have stood up and started screaming? yelling out indignation? Yep, I’m sure that was exactly what the givers were aiming for – hysteria.
They were cards, not noisemakers. This justification does not seem to have the credit to foot the bill of these events.
Note: While I can see the possibility and somewhat probability of one or a few women finding the cards and notifying the event authorities, I believe it is far more likely that the security noticed the women handing things out in front of the event (given LDS security’s familiarity with things being handed out by undesirable groups for decades now) and went themselves to see what they were handing out (or asked to see one that a woman brought to the entrance) and discovered the card and mobilized the reaction described. Both are possible and probable,
Well I’m still waiting, as I am sure Rick is, for Parkman to provide us with the chapters and versus that have been added to the Bible. Since they have not made an appearance yet, we will have to conclude that this is just another empty claim by Mormons, fed to them by their leadership, to attempt to find a reason for Mormonism.
I, on the other hand, have provided a couple of sites for our Mormon visitors to peruse that give all of the changes to the BoM and Mormon doctrine since its inception. That’s not an idle claim. The changes are an embarrassing reality with evidence that Mormons are going to have to cover up with some sort of spiritual “knowing”.
The tissues and enclosed cards causing a “disruption”? Yea I can see those Mormon ladies running up and down the isles with their hair on fire because someone gave them a card with a Bible verse on it. They would probably be swooning and in all sorts of hysterics over a Bible verse.
Our troll is claiming that his posts are being edited. I’m thinking that the Mods are being more than long-suffering and patient with him since his only real purpose in being here isn’t to make a constructive contribution to the discussion but merely try to take the discussion way off target. That’s what trolls do. That’s the purpose of a troll. My guess is that he doesn’t get much attention else where with his trollish behavior but here he actually gets participants to respond to him. At some point he will be placed in the time-out troll corner and be forced into the humiliation of having to wear the troll mask.
Spartacus
I guess I wasn’t real clear on this point, so let me elaborate.
There are several ways to disrupt a meeting. Loud outbursts are among them, but not the only ones. It is true that a meeting may go very smoothly and seem to have no troubles, but a quiet distraction may still have disrupted it, especially for individuals.
This is the disruption that I am talking about. Not an outburst that would prevent the conference from happening; but a subtle diversion that would prevent those attending from fully participating and thus preventing them from gaining what is offered.
Speaking more religiously, the allowance of such material in the worship service because a disturbance because it affects the spirit of the meeting. We do believe that the Spirit of God rests on and directs our conferences and other services. When material is brought into these services that has the specific intent of destroying the faith of the members (and don’t tell me that is not the intent) then the spirit is weakened. This is why these things are not allowed in our meetings, and what would have been disrupted if they had been.
So, maybe you can now answer my question. Why did these women not let the sisters worship how they chose, and then afterwards presented openly these cards? What was the need to conceal them.
Falcon
Yes, it was a bait and switch, or at least a relative of it. They baited the sisters with tissues, but were actually trying to deliver the cards.
Kenneth
The church addresses truth, and warns against falsehood. There is not enough time in a year to address every specific website and organization that is dedicated to spreading false information and misunderstandings concerning the church, so they merely say
Falcon,
Speaking of masks, Halloween is coming up, I dont celebrate it, but I am thinking of going as an Amish electrician, LOL. All Kidding aside,
The Problem for Mormons who claim the Bible has verses missing are many. How can you prove verses were removed? If they were removed then how come they were not put back in as soon as they knew they were removed? Why are they then using a Bible and claiming it is accurate if it is missing verses?
So this poses a problem for Mormons, but they dont care and dont see it as a problem.
“They were handing out a useful item that included a Bible verse and some websites where the women could go for to learn more about the cult they are involved in.”
Just as I said, bait and switch.
“A bait and switch scam is when someone promises one thing and then tries to deliver something else.”
Again, you people seem to think it is ok for you to do the things you say is wrong for us to do.
“Well I’m still waiting, as I am sure Rick is, for Parkman to provide us with the chapters and versus that have been added to the Bible.”
Stop misleading others about what I say, or better yet, learn to understand what is written without filtering it through what you want it to say. It is the man made definitions that some people, like you, force the rest of us to filter God’s teachings through that has been added to the understanding of what God said in the Bible. The true meaning of what God teaches is easier to understand without those manmade definitions.
THE TROLL
“Our troll is claiming that his posts are being edited.”
“Our”, does that mean you now accept me as a member of your group? I have to be careful of the info I teach you so my comments are not deleted without you seeing them. It would not surprise me if this comment it too much for your “editors” to allow you to read.
Parkman,
It is your church that teaches, many plain and precious parts are missing from the Bible. So we are not reading into what you said. So seems either your denying what you said or your church teaches by saying what you said about us reading into things. Or you really are clueless as to what your church teaches. Either way, It was your prophet that said, no man can be saved in ignorance, and it appears your ignorant and therefore not saved.
No Shem, it wasn’t a bait and switch or even a variation of it. Again, bait and switch is when you offer something, withdraw it, and then try to provide a substitute. For example, you think you have purchased a car at a very attractive price. When you go to pick it up, they try to deliver a different car to you. That’s a bait and switch.
Another example of bait and switch is when a prospect to Mormonism is given a picture of one type of religion and then when they join, they discover that it’s not the church they thought they had joined. Suddenly there’s a whole different god. Not the God of the Bible but a glorified man of which there are, according to Mormonism millions perhaps billions of them in the universe.
The bait and switch is a common practice in Mormonism and is a (common) story told by those who join and then leave when they find that they have been lied to either by outright commission or by stealth omission.
Parkman,
Of course you’re part of the group. You’re kind of like the class clown. If you would like to e mail us directly with your comments, the mods will provide you our e mail addresses. I don’t mind. I don’t know where you live, but if you’re within driving distance, Rick and I would be happy to meet with you.
You wrote:
“Again, you people seem to think it is ok for you to do the things you say is wrong for us to do.”
Thank you for coming clean on the fact of the Mormon bait and switch. I believe we have a break-through here today.
So Mormonism doesn’t have “man-made” definitions? Mormonism is replete with them.
But I think we are getting off topic here!
This is what I see. We do it out of love because we are right in the way we see God and you are wrong in the way you see God. What bothers me is that Jesus who you believe to be God said thing like only my Father knows the time I will return, My Father is greater than I, and I ascend to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God. Sounds like two different but equal beings.
Rick
If you really want an answer to your question than you should curb your habit of twisting our answers, or trying to claim that we don’t answer when we do. I am all for discussion, but only on things that I am sure you are also willing to discuss.
Falcon
It was most definitely a bait switch variation. The switch was not in the actual physical object, but in the communicated intention. The sisters were baited with the tissues, seeming to be a kindly gift. But this intension was switched with one of sneaking subterfuge.
Here is a great explanation of Bait and Switch.
Customers are “baited” by advertising for a product or service at a low price; second, the customers discover that the advertised good is not available and are “switched” to a costlier product.
The goal of the bait-and-switch is to persuade buyers to purchase the substitute goods as a means of avoiding disappointment over not getting the bait, or as a way to recover sunk costs expended to try to obtain the bait. It suggests that the seller will not show the original product or service advertised but instead will demonstrate a more expensive product or a similar product with a higher margin.
(Wikipedia.org)
This is exactly what the women are doing with the emotions of the sisters.
Clyde
I am not exactly positive which side you are commenting to, though I hope it is ours. Could you clarify.
Clyde,
OK let’s see here. Mormons proselytize out of “love”. So I guess you are judging the hearts/motives of the Christian women doing the outreach and have concluded (by revelation I guess) that their motives are……what? They’re doing it because they are a bunch of mean Christian girls who want to taunt the nice LDS girls? I guess we can add mind reading to the many powers that come with the Mormon priesthood.
So what’s your riff on Jesus.? If you want to see Jesus as the off-spring of the Mormon god and one of his many plural goddess wives that live on or near the planet Kolob I guess that’s your business. The problem of course is that that Jesus doesn’t exist. Jesus made it clear who He is. His disciples made it clear who He is. The Church Fathers, who learned from the apostles made it clear who Jesus is.
Joseph Smith was a Trinitarian when he wrote the BoM and the original edition clearly expressed this.
I’ll stand with Jesus, God incarnate, and His shed blood of the cross for my salvation.
So Clyde, what’s my motivation in testifying to you regarding Our Lord and Savior and the pathway to salvation. If I wasn’t doing it out of love and concern, why bother. Just let you perish in your sin, right?
Four years ago some Christian women did a demonstration at the Manti pageant; depicting the thirty-four wives of Joseph Smith. I remember that as part of the back lash, the women weren’t allowed to use the bathroom controlled by LDS security. Not much love there I’d say.
http://pleaseconvinceme.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html
From the above blog/journal of the events:
“Every year I am broken for the LDS people that we encounter on the streets and grieved by their responses to who Christ is and what is required to be reconciled to God as taught by the Mormon Church.”
So how should we judge the motives of these Christian men and women?
“As the week progressed, each of us became bolder and bolder, trusting in God to place compassion over fear and get into conversations quickly. ”
So here is a video of the “wives of Joseph Smith”. These women are there to bring the plan of salvation to a lost people. It’s amazing how many people brought up in the Mormon church don’t know Smith was a polygamist.
But the reason I’m posting this is because the topic of this thread deals with women witnessing their faith in boldness and love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LhzU4iXLxQ
shematwater:
Your point is valid. Understandably, the Church does not want to spend its resources addressing the concerns of every single person who takes issue with its teachings. However, if the Church wants to quell dissent as effectively as possible, then I think it should point its members to available apologetic defenses rather than hurriedly shooing people away from uncomplimentary content. Obviously, the Church does not have to follow my advice. I’m just saying that I think it’s odd that the Church takes the latter approach if solid counterarguments exist.
At the church I attend, the leaders are more than happy to address secular objections to biblical stances. The pastors do this often during sermons because (I would guess) they know that this is the best way to strengthen the faith of their flock against attack.
On a related note, I am not afraid to read materials that are not “faith-promoting”. There is always the chance that all of my beliefs are incorrect, and the only way for me to discover that is to keep seeking potential sources of truth.
“OK let’s see here. Mormons proselytize out of “love”. So I guess you are judging the hearts/motives of the Christian women doing the outreach and have concluded (by revelation I guess) that their motives are……what?”
I let anyone who knocks on my door know that they are welcome and I will listen. That is not the same as the bait and switch tactics that your folks use to disrupt worship services.
No one has given the address of their place of worship: must be that you do not want your worship service disrupted like you advocate with my worship services. I hear lots of noise from the people you follow as true teachers when they try to make knocking on doors the same as disrupting worship services. Another do as I say and not as I do double standers, with a side of misdirection thrown in for good luck.
“Joseph Smith was a Trinitarian when he wrote the BoM and the original edition clearly expressed this.”
Only if you try to filter God’s teachings in the Book of Mormon through the manmade definition of the Trinity, like you filter God’s teachings in the Bible through that manmade definition of the Trinity.
“Four years ago some Christian women did a demonstration at the Manti pageant;”
You give another good example of your kind of people deliberately creating a disruption to teach your version of Christianity.
“It’s amazing how many people brought up in the Mormon church don’t know Smith was a polygamist.”
Many of my friends were like me, we started out to prove the LDS Church wrong, and we found it to truly be God’s Church. It’s amazing how many people are diverted from God’s Church by your type of teachings. Even some of the elect are deceived.
TheTroll
shematwater,
It’s obvious that there was a lack of honesty/openness in this outreach attempt, simply by the fact that the card was hidden. The outreach women probably did distribute afterward. As for why they did before, probably for in-the-moment power and effect. The outreach probably thinks that the women are going to hear all kinds of things that will elicit feelings of inadequacy and being burdened, and so wanted to leave it to the Holy Spirit to bring that card to their attention at just the right time. This right time could have been during the event or after. They left it to chance/the Holy Spirit.
I thought of the possibility that you were going for individual subjective distraction when you spoke of disruption. However, if the security is simply concerned with distraction then they should go around reminding the ladies not to text or email during the conference.
In the end, the security was going after Aunty’s material. It seems they were not just informing the women either-they were confiscating. In fact, they were doing it in a direct and pressuring way. The women were being told face-to-face and with witnesses(their friends and acquaintances) of the officially undesirable contents. So what would a woman do, holding the box, with expectant looks for her turning it over?
No, instead, the security should have just discreetly made an announcement that there was “non-faith promoting” information referenced in the contents and allowed the women (of agency) to respond how they wished-discreetly.
In fact, this is again why they hid the cards, to give no-pressure opportunities for agency. If they had given them only after and with openness to all, the women would be much less likely to do anything other than what was expected-throwing it away.
Parkman,
I’m not afraid to give out my church’s address, I honestly would love it if you or Shem or any other Mormon showed up. Since I am thinking you might assume I am not giving out the “real” address, here is a link to my Church’s website. http://www.ccsaintpaul.org/
The times for service and address is on their, send the entire Mormon Church over, we would love to have you guys, nothing you say or do or hand out will scare us or we will not say, throw that away, and toss out these LDS, Never happen. If thats not good enough for you, I can also post my home address, but you must promise to come over and visit. But even if you dont, then send MM’s my way, other wise why post my address.
Rick. Thank you for being open enough that you are willing to share what you believe, other than Mormons are wrong. Just a quick check of the beliefs you follow I notice…[snipped by moderator]
Parkman, this blog is not intended to be a general discussion board. If you would like to discuss the doctrinal statement of Rick B’s church please do so in another forum. Thank you. -Sharon
“Parkman, this blog is not intended to be a general discussion board. If you would like to discuss the doctrinal statement of Rick B’s church please do so in another forum. Thank you. –Sharon”
Does that mean that you are restricting your blog to @nti-Mormon teachings and you do not care to teach us what your idea of the true gospel is?
Parkman,
I dont know what You said and did not see it before it was removed. But I will say this, I really dont care what your issue is with the Church I go to, and if you have any questions or problems, you can go to the Church’s website and write the pastor with any concerns and he will write you back.
I cannot and will not speak for him and why he said what he did, I know what I believe and why, and I dont follow my pastor, I follow Jesus and I dont agree with my church 100 percent on every issue and everything said, the pastor knows this and we agree on the Bible being the word of God, Jesus is God, Jesus is our Lord and we are saved. Everything else is nothing more than just an in house discussion.
If you take issue with the fact that we dont agree on everything, then let me remind you, LDS believe God once sinned and Shem feels that is false. So we have LDS who cannot agree 100 percent on everything the church teaches or has said at one time, so why should it be any different among Christians?
Also as you have seen, me and Mike dont see Eye to Eye on everything, but we both agree Jesus is our Lord, and Jesus is God, and their are false prophets leading people astray.
Parkman,
You said we were afraid to post where we go to church, I was not and did, so please put your money where your mouth is and send Mormons to my church. I promise we will talk with them, or is that why you wont try and send some our way, your afraid we will talk with them, make them feel welcome, show them the love of Christ and welcome them to talk.
Spartacus
I am glad you are understanding my position. However, I would clarify that the mere presence of the material, whether looked at or not, could disrupt the feeling of the spirit, which is why it is not permitted.
I would also say that I was not present, but have only third hand accounts of what happened. Whether they were actually confiscating anything is debatable in my mind; it is actually more likely that they were simply asking. I do not know, as I was not there. They may have handled it better, but then so could the women who were handing these things out.
My main point is that we should not gloss over the error of the women because the security of the church may have made an error themselves.
As to your argument that hiding the cards was done to allow for chance or the spirit to choose the right time, I am not convinced. The spirit does not need to resort to these tactics. The point was not to leave this to agency, but to sneak it into the meeting. Your comment that it was to ” to give no-pressure opportunities for agency” makes no sense, as it was denying them the agency not to accept it in the first place. Simply put, they did not believe that the women would accept the cards of their own agency, and so they tried to sneak them in.
All choices come with pressure, and the honest approach is the only one that is geared to maintain individual agency.
Kenneth
The leadership is constantly directing people to seek out the truth of the church from the source. People want to rely too much on apologists, but they are not the official spokesmen of the church. The only place to get the truth of the church and its doctrine is from the church, and to this end the leadership has instituted several resources to assist anyone seeking for that truth to find it. They constantly direct people to these resources.
Concerning many things there are good and logical arguments that are out there, but they should not be what we base our faith on. Once we seek proof of our faith beyond the witness of the Holy Spirit that is when we make ourselves vulnerable to the persuasive half-truths of Satan. We should seek in faith from God to know the truth, and not rely on logical arguments to persuade us.
Rick
I would love to come and visit. Unfortunately I live in Illinois with no means of making long journeys at the moment, and I do not know anyone in the area of your church. Maybe sometime in the future.
Shem,
Even though at times you might be given the idea from what I say that I dont like you, or parkman for that matter, I would still invite you over and if you said you were going to be in saint Paul, I would gladly have you over.
I have always stated, I will be happy to have anyone reading this blog, Mormon, christian, Muslim, Atheist, you name it come to my house. I know many people will not give out open invites to the world since you never know who will show up. We all know it is easy to say things about yourself that might be false since this is the internet and it is faceless. But I for one have never been afraid. You could be on the FBI’s most wanted list and I dont care, you come over and were talking Jesus, religion, and maybe side topics like Food since I am a chef, and fighting since I also love doing that also.
So anytime you or anyone who reads this blog makes your way to Saint Paul feel free to give me a heads up and if I am home you can come over. I also am not afraid of posting my email address or home address on a public forum either. I have nothing to hide about myself or my life. I live for Jesus and live or Die, I belong to Him and am under His ultimate authority.
Rick
That is nice to know. While I am not going to give out my address or phone number in an online forum I don’t mind giving out my email on occasion. While I have nothing to be ashamed of in my personal life, there are things that I prefer to keep private, simply for the protection of myself and my family.
I am also willing to have anyone over who is interested in a friendly visit, should they be passing my way. Maybe we will run into each other some day.
“I don’t know what You said and did not see it before it was removed. But I will say this, I really dont care what your issue is with the Church I go to…”
I wanted to ask you why your church did things you say are bad for Mormons to do. You know, treat your religion as you treat mine.
“…send Mormons to my church…”
Does this mean you are giving me permission to stand outside your worship service and act like your buddies at our conferences? Or the way you people act here?
On second thought, I would have trouble acting like a sideshow barker. The Lord’s Gospel deserves more respect than the way your friends treat it. It is only here that I allow the habits that I learned as a Trinitarian on how to treat others to come forth. Most of the time I care about the others feelings, no matter how wrong they are or how badly they act. Here I just act like you, it is easier they being nice.
THE TROLL (I just want you to ask the same questions of your religion and treat your religion as you treat mine.)
The double standards Mormons throw out there just astound me. I left the LDS church and stated in writing I wanted absolutely NO CONTACT from ANYONE from the LDS church. I have been harassed for 2 years now. I just had LDS missionaries at my door AGAIN last week. I have told several sets of LDS missionaries I am not and will NEVER be interested in the LDS church so please leave me alone. Do they listen? I was LDS for 40 years and never once had a missionary at my door until I resigned. Tell me how LDS missionaries harassing me constantly at my own home is OK, but other religions standing outside LDS conferences handing out information is not OK. At least the information they handed out was true. I asked the LDS missionaries last week to tell me who their god is. Funny thing, they didn’t know what I was talking about. I proclaimed loud and proud who my God is and they proceeded to lie to me by omission about who their god is. I stated for them what Mormonism teaches about the Mormon god and all of a sudden they didn’t want to talk to me anymore. They didn’t expect me to know the truth about their god. Worse than showing up on my doorstep is how I was looked right in the face and lied to. Lying by omission is still lying Mormons. I would rather have someone hand me information at my worship service than have these Mormons knowing my home address!
“I just had LDS missionaries at my door AGAIN last week.”
You could do what my neighbor downstairs did, they put a sign on their door that says, “No solicitation or religious inquiries”. Even the PENNIES BY THE INCH lady did not stop to see if they would help the children’s hospital.
“Tell me how LDS missionaries harassing me constantly at my own home is OK, but other religions standing outside LDS conferences handing out information is not OK.”
I feel sorrow for you if you truly cannot see the difference between someone asking you at your home if you would talk and the bait and switch tactics used by your friends to disrupt a worship service. I do not believe the missionaries did more than ask you if you had time to talk; just think how you would feel if they acted like the carney barkers that try hard to disrupt our worship services at conference time by putting down our beliefs.
“I would rather have someone hand me information at my worship service than have these Mormons knowing my home address!”
This makes me wish I could act like your friends and shout big putdowns about your religion to disrupt your worship service. Having witnessed the uncouth childish (not to be confused with childlike) way your friends act at Temple Square, I know that I could do a better job than the barkers you deploy.
To help people understand the difference between two missionaries coming to the home and a large group of people hounding a religious service I will explain.
In the first case it is a private transaction, and thus more respectful. Spartacus made a comment about trying to assure free agency, and their is no better way to do so than in a private setting.
Second, it ignores the current religion of the person approached, and makes only that of the one approaching an issue. In other words, it is not set up to attack and pull down a specific faith and doctrine, but it set to build one up.
These are the two biggest differences, though the underhanded tactics of concealing the cards (which were not true, by the way) is another difference from the strait forward and honest approach of the missionaries.
Kate
Personally, I would care if you sent out missionaries door to door to teach your faith and your doctrine. The problem is that this is not what is being done. There is no double standard, as the situations are vastly different.
Shemwater,
There is a huge difference between Mormon missions and Christian missions. I don’t personally know anyone who has been outside LDS temples or the conference center. I do not “deploy” anyone as parkman suggests. The Christian missions that I am familiar with ( those that have been done by my own Christian church and others) go all over the world offering humanitarian aid, feeding and clothing the poor. Money is given every week in my church to the mission fund. The difference is, Christians are out bringing people to Christ by the pure love of Christ that flows through them. They aren’t out bothering ex Christians or knocking door to door saying “Hey, are you a Mormon??” LDS missionaries are out for one thing and that is to gain converts to the LDS church. Nothing more. More members equal a chance at more tithing for an already ridiculously wealthy corporation.
The problem that I have with LDS missionaries in general is that they lie by omission. They use Christian sounding words that do not have the same meaning in Christianity that they do in Mormonism. Again, there is something wrong if a Mormon cannot stand up and proclaim truthfully who the Mormon god is. How about you? Can you truthfully proclaim to me here just who exactly your god is?
Are you saying that LDS missionaries are respectful at my door?? Think again. They are until I disagree with them or ask questions about their doctrine and teachings and then they are ugly. Last week I asked about Brigham Young teaching for years that Adam was God. I was told quite rudely that “I have never heard that” and was basically called a liar. Tell me, did I lie?
parkman
“You could do what my neighbor downstairs did, they put a sign on their door that says, “No solicitation or religious inquiries”. Even the PENNIES BY THE INCH lady did not stop to see if they would help the children’s hospital.”
Why should I have to hang a sign out for the LDS missionaries to leave me alone? I stated in a legal letter to church headquarters that I wanted NO CONTACT. I had phone calls for 3 months from the ward clerk and then the bishop, did I need to hang a sign for them too? Do you think they would have left me alone if I hung a sign? The LDS missionaries are being SENT to my home by the LDS church. I’m on a list of people they have to see. The sad thing is, every new set of missionaries are sent here without being filled in on the situation. Don’t pretend that they are just knocking door to door here. This community is 90% LDS. I never once had a missionary on my doorstep until I resigned. 40 years of no missionaries and then less than a week after I received my confirmation letter that I was no longer LDS, there the little buggers were, knocking on the door! My family and friends have complained horribly about the Jehovah’s Witness missionaries for years, yet it’s just fine for LDS missionaries right? In my opinion, both religions are out for one thing and that is converts. More converts equal more money right?
“I do not believe the missionaries did more than ask you if you had time to talk; ”
Wrong. You weren’t there were you?
Kate
I know that there are missionaries who are less than polite. However, considering your acidic disposition towards the church in general I am more inclined to believe you have exaggerated things far beyond what they really were. Now, I was not there, and I can make to real judgment on either side. Just know that your basic attitude does not persuade in your favor.
As to the rest of the garbage you are flinging around, I find it so absurd as to hardly be worth talking about. However, libel and stander against something I love, and especially when it is against God and His chosen servants, cannot be ignored.
Missionaries are out for mainly one thing, and that is to preach the true gospel of Christ so that all things living will have the opportunity to hear, learn, and accept the word. That is it. Concern the eternal welfare of their fellow men is all that motivates them. I know that you want there to be other motivations, as you really want a reason to hate them. But you fabricating reasons, no matter how much you declare them, does not make them true.
Shem, Give us a break.
Why is it someone who was a Hard core Mormon, born and raised for 40 years of their life, and served their church, yet it is not until they believe something different than all of a sudden they believed lies and they are the trouble maker? Thats really sad.
Add to that, you said
What a joke, You really are blind, their are so many Mormons or Mormon sites that are so acidic towards us Christians that it is not funny. I know Mormons, and Ralph can correct me if I am wrong on this, but some Mormons on the fair LDS website are so acidic towards us that some LDS refuse to go on that board. So dont play that, us LDS are always so sweet and innocent card that we never do anything wrong.
shematwater,
Take a look in the mirror. The way you are treating me here is EXACTLY how your LDS missionaries treated me a few weeks ago. They were fine until I said I had resigned and questioned them about their god. Is it OK for them to knock on my door pushing their religion but I’m not allowed to ask them questions about it? A religion they are clueless about? Is it my fault the LDS church doesn’t teach them their god was once a man and is a polygamist? They had never heard that. Not my fault. Maybe the LDS church should be honest about it’s teachings and pass that along to the kids they send out knocking on doors. These kids are pushing a whitewashed version of your religion to gain converts, just like Mitt Romney bragged about being a Pastor of his church for 10 years! Pretty Christian sounding and misleading wouldn’t you say?
“Acidic disposition towards the church in general”
Hmmm….. interesting choice of words. Is this what you tell anyone who disagrees with your religion and your church? How acidic are Mormons when they tell of the great apostasy? Have you ever been to the Manti pageant and seen how Christian leadership is portrayed? How about the temple ceremony? Christian Ministers teaching Christianity used to be portrayed in a horrible way. Maybe they still are….. Have you read your Mormon scriptures? All other churches belong to the church of the devil right? The Catholic church is the “whore of all the earth” and let’s not forget her “harlot Protestant daughters” talk about libel and slander! Please spare me the persecution act, all I can say to you is, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.