In the last General Conference, Apostle Russell M. Nelson gave a talk titled “Ask the Missionaries! They Can Help You!” (Apparently there were lots of exclamation points in this talk!!!)
Earlier on the first day of the conference, President Thomas S. Monson had explained that 18-year-old males and 19-year-old females were now qualified to become missionaries (instead of 19 and 21). The news was very exciting for many Mormons, as the number of applications went up by 471% within just a few weeks. It will not be surprising to me if the church has 100,000 missionaries by next year, especially since so many more females are applying.
Nelson said that “missionaries can help in many ways.” First of all, he said, they can help those who want to do genealogical work. Honestly, I doubt many of the teenaged missionaries have ever looked up their family records. Yes, their parents and grandparents, maybe, but how many 18-year-old boys know much about a science that is largely learned through experience?
Next, Nelson said the missionaries can help members who are not presently participating in church functions. Perhaps with so many missionaries, the teenagers can go around to the less active members’ homes and ring the doorbell a few minutes before the church service to make sure they get there on time. Really, though, can most of these teens know what it’s like to doubt whether “The Church” is true? Most of them have merely parroted their parents’ faith, probably attending seminary classes and going with the flow. Now that the boys will move straight from high school to the mission field, they may have very little time to think through their faith and see if it’s true.
Recently a pair of missionaries came to my house. One was 21 who grew up in the Mormon Church. He became a missionary because, finally, he received a testimony about the church just a few months before. (I wonder if this was not more of an issue that he couldn’t get any dates with nice Mormon girls.) Off, then, he went to the MTC. The other was 19, a more traditional missionary. Neither had any kind of exposure to Evangelical Christianity. By moving the age requirement down, it will be interesting to see the impact upon these younger men and women, some of whom will be seriously challenged in their faith for the first time at a younger age.
A third benefit to talking to the missionaries, Nelson said, is that “some of you may want to know how to conquer an addiction or live longer and enjoy better health.” How many teenagers have conquered an addiction? Honestly, I’ve never met a missionary who I thought had ever imbibed or inhaled, let alone had an addiction. Their lack of experience in these types of matters does not make them experts in conquering addictions. As far as better health, was Nelson serious? I’ve seen the missionaries stuffing themselves at Golden Corral or getting another soda at the fountain at McDonalds. I hear that they eat plenty of Top Ramen and Mac and Cheese during their missions. These are teen-agers, for Pete’s sake! How are they going to teach me how to live longer?
Fourth, if “you feel a gnawing emptiness, without direction or purpose,” Nelson promised that the missionaries can help. Unfortunately, the missionaries have very little practical spiritual experience besides their own faith. Most can’t tell me the different between the Qu’ran and the Tripitaka. They have never looked into Zen or know the fundamentals of Evangelical Christianity. All they know is what they have experienced, which for most of them is TBM (True Blue Mormonism). They know the standard lines (i.e. Joseph Smith was a true prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, Thomas S. Monson is true, and yes, anything connected to Mormonism is true), but they really don’t know why. Their critical thinking skills are not fully functional yet. How do they really know if what they are believing is true? The pat answer: “I have prayed about it and know it is true.” This just isn’t good enough.
Nelson continued, saying that the missionaries can also help if “you have concerns about your family” by helping with the “strengthening of marriages and families.” However, these young men and women have never been married. How are they qualified to somehow become marriage/family counselors? According to Nelson, they “can also help you with your desire for greater knowledge.” But most missionaries have had no more than a year of college, and as I mentioned before, soon the missionaries will be knocking on our doors right out of high school. I have taught high schoolers, and while many of them are bright, their knowledge is not necessarily higher than those whose doors they are knocking on.
Finally, Nelson said that in a recent study “Latter-day Saints were the most knowledgeable about Christianity and the Bible.” Why is it, then, that missionaries with whom I converse have no idea about the passages in the Bible that say there is only one God? That they think the Trinity means one God in three gods? That they have the idea that salvation by grace is nothing more than resurrection from the dead? That they think the Bible is filled with many contradictions and errors? Honestly, I doubt many of them have ever studied the Bible except for passages that were required reading in seminary and missionary training.
No, Mr. Nelson, the missionaries are of little service to those who have studied their Bibles. My only hope with lowering the age of the missionaries is that I might get more visits from them. Maybe I could help them!
OOPS! I see the falcon will not get the spelling/word usage award today. Find the error and win a copy of “20,000 Words Spelled Correctly”. My personal copy has the front and back cover torn off from heavy use. I guess I should have used it more.
Just a few comments
Falcon is correct in his statement that most of todays youth are ignorant, unlearned, and unskilled, and would not be able to properly function in the world. I have never denied this.
However, the reason for this is because people like Falcon don’t think they have the ability to do so until they have reached a certain age, and thus the youth are kept from being intelligent, learned, and skilled, because the older generation, in their arrogance, believes they can’t acheive these things at this time.
I disagree with this. I think a young man or young woman, who receive good training can be ready for the world by the time they are 18. They can know the doctrines of the church they belong to, and be able to articulate them in a clear and honest manner. They can have the skills required to assist in many areas of life, and if taught this will have those skills by the time they are 18. The reason they don’t is because arrogant teachers don’t let them.
Spartacus
Matthew 7: 6
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
Do not think that I am calling you swine, and I have no doubt of your sincerity in desiring to learn more. That is not the issue. There are things that are taught to investigators, which is sufficient to gain them entrance to the Celestial Kingdom if they accept it. Once it has been accepted, and that entranced gained, then the deeper matters are taught and discussed.
All things must be done in order, for God reveals his will “line upon line” until eventually you know it all.
One should not expect to receive the greater portion before they have accepted the lesser. In other words, prove that you can be faithful to the first principles, and then you will be given the next principles. Once you have proven faithful to those you will receive what is next, and so on until you receive all things that the Father hath.
This is the principle behind the discussions.
I am currently teaching the New Member Discussions to a convert in our ward. I use the same manual as the missionaries, but I am able to fill in more details on the doctrine and answer the questions that are asked more fully. I am able to do this because he has demonstrated his willingness to not only learn, but to believe and follow.
The last time we met I was able to instruct him somewhat on the doctrines of Foreordination and Election; ideas he had not yet learned, but was now ready for.
Rick
Question: Can you tell me all the various divisions of people that resulted from the confusion of language at the tower of Babel, and tell me where each group migrated to?
Also, you mention that the Book of Mormon talks about Israelites in Jeruselam at around 600 BC. Please prove to me that there werent’ any there at the time. More to the point, can you tell me every single Israelite that did live at that time, what happened to them, and where there descendents are now?
Your evidence that you keep repeating over and over is so flawed that one has to wonder.
spartacus,
“What does that say about the LDS church? That you have to believe on their terms? That they don’t want anyone sincere and motivated enough to do their greatest investigation into the greatest truth? That they teach their missionaries to NOT go the extra mile with investigators?
Personally I think they don’t want you raising questions for their Missionaries. The church doesn’t want them losing their testimony with the truth. Better to lose one investigator than to lose whole families when the missionary returns and starts really researching.
enki,
From what I have read by you, you are former LDS. But now are you atheist?
You seem to defend Mormonism, But yet are not Mormon any more, why is that? Now since you are a former Mormon I am assuming you are aware of this, But Either way here it goes.
Enki said So what if LDS people don’t understand the terms in the same way, is there universal agreement amoung all christians as to what particular terms mean? Repackaging of terms isn’t new, so what is the problem?
We claim Mormons are Not Christian, LDS get upset when we say that, well why is it we are not allowed to make this claim when if I said I was a Mormon, yet taught what I believe is contrary to what LDS believe they would claim and have claimed, I cannot say I am LDS.
Then prior to JS coming on the scene, their was no mention of Mormonism, or Mormons. Yet JS was the first person to claim God spoke to him and said what I/we as Christians believe is an abomination in the eyes of God.
Now with that said, is it fair to say, I/we as Christians can defend what we believe against what JS said and taught? If so, they why are you getting on us for doing that?
Many LDS on this site over the years have admitted they have a different gospel, the only difference is, the LDS believe it is there gospel that is correct and our is wrong.
Then it is the BoM that claims, their are only two churchs, the True church and the church of the devil. If LDS are honest then when MM’s knock on my/our doors then they must admit either they have the true church and I’m in the devils church, or my Church is true and there’s is false.
We cannot both be correct, Yet I only see you complaining about us Believers saying LDS are not Christian, I dont see you complaining to them saying, you cannot claim they are of the church of the devil.
Then lets not for get, a mormon prophet a few years back said, The Christ that Christians worship is not the same Christ we worship. So yes Enki, their is a huge difference between us and the beliefs are huge.
Lastly lest not forget, The Bible tells us their are and will be False Gospels, false christs, false teachers and wolves in sheeps clothing and false prophets. Did you ever stop and think Maybe they fit this bill instead of saying we believe the same things, yet have some minor differences?
Shem said
So Shem, You read the Bible and from the Time of Adam and Eve till the tower of Babel we see on one people group, simply put the Human race. So me other people groups from Scripture from Adam to before the confusion at the tower of Babel. It simply is not their.
Then after the confusion that is where we get all the currant people groups, French, Japanese, Russian, Greek, Mexican, Etc.
Where else do you think all these people groups came from? God did not wipe out the entire earth even Noah and His family and create a bunch of new people.
Shem said
This is easy Shem, but you wont like the answer, They never existed and their is no evidence they ever did. If they did exist, why do we have no evidence they did outside of the BoM only? We have archaeological evidence for the people groups listed in the Bible, We also have Jews alive to this day that know they existed.
If these so called BoM people lived in Israel 500-600 BC then how come Jesus and the apostles never mentioned them, but yet quoted from most all other books and peoples in the BIBLE, AND WHY do Jews alive today admit about groups that lived and persecuted them, yet seem to act as if the BoM PEOPLES NEVER EXISTED? Their simply is zero evidence they did.
So instead of running your mouth over and over claiming all this evidence exists, yet not providing it, why not provide it and prove that it exists?
Rick
First, my point was that your evidence is so faulty that it is not evidence, but a confused rambling that is trying to pose as reasonable thought.
I like that you deny there were Israelites in Jeruselam back in 600 BC. I have to assume this is an error, and that you are actually speaking of Nephites. Of course, I could be wrong.
As to Nephites existing in Jeruselam at any time, no one ever claimed this, and it is not taught in the Book of Mormon. What is taught is that a man named Nephi lived in Jeruselam at that time, and that he, with his family and a few friends, fled the city just before the Babylonian captivity. Since we are talking of only one or two dozen people (two families) it is not surprising that a record of them does not exist in modern Jeruselam.
Here is an idea: The next time you are back in Israel, instead of asking the Jews if they have heard of the Nephites, ask them how good their records are concerning individuals who lived in 600 B.C. Ask them if they have records of all the families that existed before the Babylonian captivity. See just how many families are still known, and then see if they can trace their desendents.
This is my point. You claim there should logically be evidence of the nations of the Book of Mormon in Israel today. That is ludicrus. The only evidence that could possibly exist in Israel is a record of the small number of people that lived there and then left, which is not suprising doesn’t exist.
Speaking of the Tower of Babel and the time before: First, I do not think the Bible indicates only one group, but that doesn’t really matter. After the confusion of languages the people became divided into groups. Can you identify all these groups and tell where they migrated to. If you can’t than your argument against the account of the Jaredites is unfounded. Simply put, unless you can find records of all people the lack of records for one people proves nothing.
Lastly, I would like to answer a certain point you make to Enki, which you have made before, and I have addressed before, though you seem to have conveniently forgotten this once again.
You say: “We claim Mormons are Not Christian, LDS get upset when we say that, well why is it we are not allowed to make this claim when if I said I was a Mormon, yet taught what I believe is contrary to what LDS believe they would claim and have claimed, I cannot say I am LDS.”
The reasoning is very simple, and let us see if you can grasp it this time. We are a denomination within Christianity. We do not claim to be the same as any other denomination; only to be part of the larger religious movement that is known as Christianity. For anyone to claim to be part of a denomination they must accept the doctrines of that denomination. Thus to be Catholic one must except the Pope. If one claims to be Catholic and yet rejects the Pope then they are not being honest.
Thus, one cannot claim to be Mormon unless they accept the core doctrine of LDS faith. They can be Christian, but not Mormon. Just as we Mormons cannot claim to evangelical christians because we do not accept their core doctrine, but we cans till be Christians.
The real problem with this question is simple: Because you have set a narrow limit to what you will consider Christian, which does not include Mormonism, you view the problem as being somewhat similar to Islam claiming to be Christian. However, since we accept the very broad, and historical definition of Christian as anyone who believes in Christ as the savior, we see your complate as being similar to you claiming that Catholics are not Christians.
Shem said
Shem, I sadly will throw my kids under the bus for this, but admit I should read my posts better before replying. It seems every time I sit down and write on this blog, My kids run crazy and fight, or my wife try’s talking to me, but I also admit it is my fault for not proof reading what I wrote. I will work better at that.
Now Shem said
Alma 43:13-14 says
And
2 nephi 29:11-14 says
And
Mormon 1:8
Now Shem,
This is only a few verses but it seems to mention lots of people groups that existed, regardless of whether they existed in Israel or other places, they existed and seem to have done great things and great stories exist of them, so out side of Mormon Scriptures, their seems to be no evidence they ever existed. Please provide it?
Then you said,
I find this funny because, I have said before, Their is no way you LDS can go back and baptize all the people groups that existed since you dont have their names, But you said it was possible and God would help provide the names, Yet where is your god to provide the evidence his people mentioned in the BoM ever existed?
Then add to that, we read the Bible, we read that when God called Abram and his wife Sari, their was only the two of them, thats far less than the few dozen you mention, yet we have evidence of Two people existing. Same Goes for many people in the Bible. King David, His wife he gained through Murder, and many other people who date back even father than these guys. It’s sad the lengths you will go to believe in a false gospel.
Shem said
Lets see here, According to the Bible it tells the story of the tower of Babel, according to the book of moron it tells a differing account of the tower, yet Jews admit and know the story the Bible gives, they just dont acknowledge the account given in the BoM. Why is that? The BoM seems to date back that far, yet no evidence seems to support the BoM out side of LDS sources?
Lastly you said
O no you are not, Not even close. Funny how you LDS whine and cry when we say, LDS are not christian and you not even a denomination within Christianity. Yet you guys can claim, the FLDS and the RLDS and all the other LDS off shoots are false, how come you guys can say your simply a denomination within Christianity, but these other LDS groups cannot claim they are also or they are denominations within Mormonism?
Rick,
All I can think is ‘weird’. The LDS church body is a specific church body that can be researched and specifically commented on. What a christian is much more difficult to define. Whatever ‘abominations’ existed that JS identified may not exist anymore, or may have changed since that statement was made. The accusation of other teachings being incorrect may still apply. Its difficult to say.
So that exactly is christian? It may not be by doctrines alone. For example many may reject Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist church as not being christian. I don’t know exactly everything that they believe in, but they certainly claim to be christian. They might fulfill all the core teachings outline here, but somehow I think most people would question if their protests are a christian approach.
The blog seems to highlight who exactly jesus is. Is that such an easy person to identify? Someone informed me that the name was actually a very common jewish name about his time. Something like ‘John’ or ‘Jimmy’ ,”Dave” etc…so common that the title Jesus christ can almost take on a mythological quality, to represent a typical person, but especially that of a jewish man of that time period. Kind of like ‘John Doe’. Something similiar has occured in mormonism ‘Joseph Smith’ with ‘Joe’ being so common, and ‘Smith’ very common. “John Doe” or one could write a mythological letter with ones part from mormonism. “Dear john…” (dear joe…) But in this case it would represent a ‘typical’ white male american. Just hearing the name, I would not know much about either one, just what has been written about them.
Rick
First, when did I ever say the Book of Mormon doesn’t mention many different people? I never made this claim.
Now, the people of the Book of Mormon can be divided into two major groups; the Nephites and the Lamanites. These two groups are comprised of the descendents of many different people, and so can be referred to by those individual designations, but that is not common. The Jacobites and the Samites, and the Ishmaelites and all that are all generally referred to as Nephites. Even the people of Ammon eventually went by that designation.
However, all of that means very little. They were in the America’s, and my point was that the Israeli’s of today would not have a record of them, which is what you were claiming. Whether or not there is a record found in America is an entirely different matter, and needs its own discussion.
(Note: 2 Nephi 29 is a prophecy of the last days, in which all the writings will be brought together in one. This began with the revelation of the Book of Mormon, and will continue until all sacred records are found and brought together. It is an entirely different topic).
As to the story of the Jaredites, the account in the Book of Mormon is not different from the one in the Bible concerning the Tower. It has more detail, but it contradicts nothing that the Bible teaches. So, again, your reasoning is based on a false idea.
Also, the New Testament tells one account of Christ, but the Jews of today tell a very different account, and they accept their account, not the New Testament. What the Jews accept as truth is not proof of anything.
As to your last question: I couldn’t care less if that they claim to be offshoots, or denominations within the movement of Mormonism. That would be a very accurate way of describing them. However, they are false, having taught and practiced false doctrine. One can be a false religion and still be part of a particular religious movement.
I have no problem that you say we are false. That is a matter of belief, and you are entitled to yours. However, to say we are not Christian is not a matter of belief, but a matter of definition, which you have tried to alter through the years in an attempt to block others from using the word.
Personally, I think you are just as Christian as we are, even though you belong to the church of the Devil.
O yea shem,
The evidence that these people lived in america is so over whelming that it cannot be denied.
I keep forgetting that the evidence of the battle of the hill cumorh where millions died is so over whelming that it made the news when it was discovered.
O wait, I just woke up into a dose of reality, I was believing you for a minute, But God slapped me into reality when He told me, This evidence does not exist, has never been found, and the battle site supposdly in New York has been moved a few times due to lack of evidence. Darn it!!!!!
Dont you hate it when facts and reality get in the way of what you want to believe? I know it really does not, but thought I would ask anyway.
Rick
Don’t you hate it when the only response you can give is mockery and sarcasm?
First, I made no comment as to the Evidence in America. My only only comment was that since the claim is in America there is no logical reason to expect evidence in Israel. Can you argue this point?
It appears that you cannot, but are trying to divert the discussion onto something that you are more comfortable in discussing, having had your current arguments proven false.
Shem,
You make excuses due to the serious lack of evidence. All I want is for you to explain why their is no evidence to prove the BoM, either here in americe or over in Isreal. Simply put you cannot, so you get mad and accuse me of things.
The BoM is clear, their were many people groups mentioned, Both claiming to live in or around Israel and here in america, Their is no evidence to support any of this out side of the BoM or “Revelation” and you can claim other wise all you want. Just provide it or claim why you cannot.
Rick
The Book of Mormon is clear, and it is clear that what you say is not accurate concerning it.
The book of Mormon makes no claims to groups living in Israel accept the Israelites, which is proven by history. Now, if you count the claim that people lived during the time of the Tower of Babel, and that some lived around that tower, this is also proven by the Bible.
The groups that you are demanding evidence for never existed in Israel. Their forefathers did, which consisted of maybe two dozen people, and thus we would not really expect to find evidence of them in Israel.
Get your facts strait before try to argue a point.
Now, as I said, the discussion of evidence in America is a different topic, and would require its own discussion. I am not going to get into now, as it would take to long. The topic you brought up was evidence in Israel, and the Book of Mormon record would show that such evidence would likely not exist.
Now, speaking of accusations, I have to find this funny, as that seems to be your primary theme throughout all your posts. Accusations and innuendos. But then, if I accuse you of something, oh no, I have to have an ulterior motive, a desire to conceal my own shortcomings. Of course your accusations are only proof of your superior intellect and knowledge. They can’t possibly be an attempt to divert conversations and conceal your shortcomings. That is only for those who don’t agree with you, right?
Shem said
The People mentioned in the BoM are pure fiction, they do not exist and never have, Their is no proof in any form that the BoM people existed anyplace. Out side of the BoM their is not mention of them in non-LDS sources, yet we can read History and Secular books, and we can read accounts of the People mentioned in the Bible, but not the BoM.
My point in mentioning the Tower of Babel is partly this. Many LDS have said on this blog and to me in person, the reason their is ZERO evidence of the BoM from archaeological history is the BoM is not very old, maybe a few hundred years. My point is, If we read the accounts in the BoM and they claim to date back all the way to the tower of Babel and even say 600 years BC and they lived in Israel, they 1. why does no one in the Bible mention them? In the Bible we read Jesus and the apostles mentioning people all the way back to the garden of Eden, Noah right before the tower and many time frames in between. Yet no mention of the people in the BoM ever being mentioned.
This tells me it is a fake along with the serious lack of evidence from History. And sadly no LDS can provide this evidence.
Then when I said the Bibles version contradicts the BoM account of the tower of Babel you said it simply adds more information. Really? People in the BoM claiming they knew what God was going to do, and ask if they can be spared, thats simply not biblical and if that really did happen, why simply was it not mentioned in the Bible, why do we need to wait almost two thousand years to get that little piece of info from JS?
Shem said
It wont take that long to show evidence, it simply does not exist. LDS believe that the BoM people are part of the american Indians, and it seems DNA evidence proves this false.
Shem,
When I asked you to provide evidence in the form of archaeological evidence to prove the BoM, it seems that is to hard for you, So let me put it to you this way.
The Bible mentions Paul being on a ship and before the ship wreck two anchors were dropped to lighten the load of the ship. Well we have two guys just a few years ago read that account in the Bible and say, I bet we can use the Bible as our guide and find those anchors. Guess what Shem? They did just that and found the anchors dropped off the ship.
Here is the book, The Lost Shipwreck of Paul, the authors name is, Robert Cornuke. They found the anchors and gave them to the president of the island of Malta as a gift.
See how easy that was for me to give you evidence? Now if that was two little anchors, and they were found using the Bible, How come you cannot use the BoM and provide evidence for the battle of the Hill curmoah? Supposedly roughly millions died in that battle, but you think they could provide One Sword, or shield or anything to prove that battle ever took place? No, did God come and clean up the battle field of all evidence? They even need to move the place of the battle field. So how come it would take to much time to provide evidence when I just provide some?
Rick
Once again you are altering the subject at hand in order to continue your arguing. Please address my points concerning what you said before demanding that I address further points made by you.
I will make a few comments however.
Personally, I couldn’t care less about the recency of the Book of Mormon. I have heard the statement before, and what is meant is simply that it has not captured the same level of interest from the archeological world that the Bible has, partly because it has not been around as long. As a result less has been done to use it to search out various things. This is a valid point, but on the whole pointless, as it is only useful in evading.
As to your complaints about the people of the Book of Mormon not being mentioned by Christ and the Apostles, my question is why would they be? Jesus was teaching the Jews, and so he used the records they had available to do so. The same is true of the Apostles. It would have been rather silly on their part to quote a person that the people they were teaching never heard of.
Speaking of the Biblical account of things, how much detail do you suppose was left out of these early years? We have about ten chapters to give a nearly 2500 year history. In other words, 250 years per chapter on average. That would be like writing the entire history of the united states in three pages. A few details are bound to be left out.
However, when we consider that Noah and his immediate family (wife, sons, and daughters-in-law) were all still alive at the time of the Tower, and the Bible is fairly clear that they were all faithful, righteous people, I think it is not a stretch to assume that they likely knew what was going to happen; especially when we realize that God does nothing without first revealing his designs to the prophets that he has designated for that purpose (Amos 3: 7). So, it is not that it contradicts the Bible. It is merely that that particular detail was left out of the record, as there was not enough time or space to put it in.
As to your evidence, it is not all that conclusive, as there is no proof that those two pieces came from Paul’s ship, and no real proof as to where Paul’s ship was wrecked. In truth, the man who claims to have found the anchors got them from local fishermen, and could only produce two of the six claimed; only one of which got even a cursory examination that said it likely came from the same time period and likely the same kind of ship. Hardly a ringing endorsement.
http://ldolphin.org/maltashipwreck.html
As it stands there is still to credible archeological evidence as to where Paul was shipwrecked. So much for your evidence.
Shem said I have heard the statement before, and what is meant is simply that it has not captured the same level of interest from the archeological world that the Bible has, partly because it has not been around as long.
More lame excuses. More people have interest than you care to admit, It’s more a matter of, NO EVIDENCE, not a lack of interest. The issues of you saying it has not been around as long, is bull. This goes back to why I said, the BoM mentions the tower of Babel and and saying the BoM says, people lived in Israel 5-6 hundred BC. That also proves it has been around longer than you guys claim.
Shem said
Really? Of course you would believe that, Jesus spoke with more than Just Jews and spoke to more than just Jews, And when Jesus mentions People in the OT, He was referring to people who were not Jews, He mentions plenty of Non Jews, This shows either your Ignorant, or you dont care about the truth, Or maybe Both. I choose Both.
Shem said However, when we consider that Noah and his immediate family (wife, sons, and daughters-in-law) were all still alive at the time of the Tower, and the Bible is fairly clear that they were all faithful, righteous people, I think it is not a stretch to assume that they likely knew what was going to happen; especially when we realize that God does nothing without first revealing his designs to the prophets that he has designated for that purpose (Amos 3: 7). So, it is not that it contradicts the Bible. It is merely that that particular detail was left out of the record, as there was not enough time or space to put it in.
I swear you just make stuff up. As to the Issue of Amos, Read this
It seems according to Jesus, He did not revel everything first to His prophets, Otherwise He could not say that. But you would not know that since you dont read the Bible.
As to Paul, you can go to http://www.khouse.org
One of the founders Chuck Missler stated Himself that they used the Bible, and gathered Gear and went scuba Diving and found them, So Either he lied about that, or your LDS sources is wrong. I meet Chuck and know people who know him personally, I trust him over some LDS source that rejects truth at every turn.
Rick
Maybe you need to do a little more research, and actually read the posts I give. Concerning Paul, I gave an article written in opposition to the claim, and that article, as far as I know, is not written by a Mormon, or even endorsed by a Mormon. So we see once again your own bias against anything we might say on any matter.
The fact of the matter is that despite the claims of these men they have no proof to actually connect these pieces of anchor to Paul other than their own supposition that how they interpret the Biblical passages is the correct way to do so. This is not evidence of anything.
“More lame excuses. More people have interest than you care to admit”
Actually, I never made a comment on how many people had interest, other than to say it was significantly less than those who have the same interest in the Bible. This is simply a fact, regardless of how you want to twist my words.
I also said, very directly, that I do not use the argument myself, as it is useless in any real discussion.
Keep things in context rather than ignoring my point in favor of one you can more easily argue against.
“Of course you would believe that, Jesus spoke with more than Just Jews and spoke to more than just Jews, And when Jesus mentions People in the OT, He was referring to people who were not Jews, He mentions plenty of Non Jews”
Again you miss the point. Jesus spoke of other peoples, yes. But they were all peoples that existed in the record of the Jews. He never speaks of anyone who is not mentioned in that record, and he did this to keep things familiar. He rarely spoke to anyone who was not a Jew, or at least to be known descendents of the Israelites, like the Samaritans.
Jesus never spoke of the Hindus, or the Britons, or the Huns, or any other group that was not already known to the people he was teaching.
You have not yet proven anything on this point.
As to Amos 3: 7, I like how you try to contradict one scripture with another. Of course you fail to note that Matthew 13: 17 does not say that no prophet had even see it, but that many who wished to had been denied that privilege. So it seems that some did see, and thus there is no conflict in between these to verses.
Now, if you would please explain to me what I made up; or do you deny that Noah was still alive at the time of the Tower; or maybe you deny that he was a righteous man? What of Shem and the other patriarchs. Can you use the Bible to tell me what they were doing at the time of the Tower, because I can use it to prove they were alive at that time. In fact, Shem was alive up until the first few sons of Jacob were born.
So, please tell me what these men were doing?
Shem,
Even if we simply ignore the issue of the anchors, We still have so much evidence for the Bible and zero evidence for the BoM that you must seriously ask, what evidence outside of a burning in the bosom do we have for the BoM?
I have been to Israel, I am a chef and I was able to tour kitchens over their, I bought spices and brought them home. I have never been able to tour BoM lands.
I have seen Israel and slept over their, I cannot say the same for the BoM.
We have the dead sea scrolls to prove the Bible, we do not have the Golden plates for the BoM.
We have artifacts and archaeological discoveries for the BiBLE, Yet in the BoM we read about a battle so massive millions died, yet no single coin or helmet, or sword or anything has ever been found. Sadly the location of the battle field has been moved a few times.
Yet in reality none of this bothers people who choose darkness over light.
Shem said
Have you ever researched facts and said here is evidence, people dont care, or are you simply assuming and giving a mere opinion? I bet it is just your opinion.
Shem said
Ok, let me put it this way then. How come Jesus and the apostle never mention people or places in the BoM, yet the BoM quotes Bible prophets? Even worse is this, how is that the quotes in the BoM are exact word for word quotes written in King James English? You mean OT prophets and people spoke King James English? Looks more like plagurisam to me.
The Bible does not tell me everything Shem, Noah and others did, so I dont know what they did, but just because I dont know does not make the BoM true when it is so full of holes and seriously stupid Logic.
Rick
I am always fascinated how often you try to change the subject when you realize that your arguments have failed.
So, do you admit that your anchors are not the great proof you claimed. That is fine. I am not going to get into a great discussion of proof and all that. I personally have no problem with you excepting the claim of the anchors, as there is really no proof that they aren’t from Paul’s wreck.
Now, I have mentioned before in this thread that I am not going to discuss the evidence of the Americas at this time, as such would be too lengthy and would require a different thread. However, speaking of the Biblical Prophets mentioned in the Book of Mormon, there is no problem with this. The Nephites took the brass plates that contained a record of the prophets down to Jeremiah. Thus these men would have been know to the Nephites, being part of their record. You will note that no prophet after 600 B.C. is mentioned, with the exception of Malachi, who is introduced to the Nephites by Christ. Once again your argument fails to make any sense.
“Have you ever researched facts and said here is evidence, people dont care, or are you simply assuming and giving a mere opinion?”
I think you will need to explain this question better, as I am not sure what you are asking? As to peoples interest, I am giving an opinion based on my experience with world in general. I have met very few people who showed any great interest regarding proving the Book of Mormon, or using it to map out locations and objects. Not nearly as many as show an interest in such things from the Bible.
On a final note, if you have ever eaten with the American Indians then you have eaten the food of the people of the Book of Mormon. If you have ever visited the ruins in Central and South America, or even in North America, you have toured the lands of the Book of Mormon. The difference is that the land of Israel has had its history preserved over the millennium, while the America’s have not.
Dear Eric Johnson:
That’s Dr. Nelson to you! And no, I am not Russell M. Nelson, PhD/MD.
His doctorate may be real, but not his “apostleship”. k-chung!
Shem said
No Shem, I’m not saying that, I’m saying that if you dont believe it I really dont care. I am also saying that the evidence for the Bible is so over whelming that if you reject it then as the Bible says, You are a fool.
Shem said
Funny How the Bible mentions records and such being written down of paper or parchment, and we have the dead sea scrolls to prove the Bible, Funny how we dont have and never found any of these plates have ever been found? The evidence is seriously lacking. I dont care that you dont want to talk about it, thats fine. I’m just saying, the evidence simply does not exist.
Shem said
I love how you make this stuff up, you really are like your prophet, a good story tell with out evidence. Sadly people blindly believe both of you and will pay dearly for all of eternity for rejecting the truth of Gods word in favor of lies.
“If you have ever visited the ruins in Central and South America, or even in North America, you have toured the lands of the Book of Mormon.”
I have visited the ruins in Central America with a local tour guide who gave us a full days worth of history about not only the land, but the people who have lived there for thousands of years, and yes their history has been preserved, passed down from generation to generation. The Mayans didn’t go anywhere, they are still there. The Mayans have their own unique history and NONE of it even compares to Mormonism. One other thing is that the Mayans had their own written language and not one word of Mormonism is in anything they have found written. How arrogant to swoop in on a people with a rich history and culture of their OWN and try and hijack that to fit your own religion. This part of Mormonism really upsets me. These lands are not the lands of the Book of Mormon.
Rick
Funny how you once again don’t seem to be able to argue against what I say.
Just for reference sake, it is an established fact that metal plates were used in the ancient Mediterranean area to record many things, including religious texts.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=637
You likely won’t care, as this is an LDS source and thus to your mind is too biased to be reliable. That is okay. Others may find it useful.
shem,
What point are you trying to make? We know from the Bible that gold plates were written on. Joseph Smith could easily have made up the gold plates from reading the following scriptures that were in his own Bible.
(Exodus 28:36, 39:30)
This section of Scripture also gives instructions regarding the high priest’s breastplate (Exodus 28:28) and the Urim and Thummim (Exodus 28:30), items said to be found with the Book of Mormon’s gold plates in a stone box on the hill Cumorah.
“At length the time arrived for obtaining the plates, the Urim and Thummim, and the breastplate. On the twenty-second day of September, one thousand eight hundred and twenty-seven, having gone as usual at the end of another year to the place where they were deposited, the same heavenly messenger delivered them up to me.” Joseph Smith—History 1:59
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0..
It sounds to me like JS plagiarized the Bible yet again.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=a2aef48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD
Try this link.
Why all the interest in the Inca’s the Mayans, and the Aztec’s then? What about the city of Troy? Or Pompeii, to name a few off the top of my head. They’ve been around about as long as the Book of Mormon, and yet there is lots of interest in those archaeological sites. Perhaps there is no interest in the Book of Mormon because no one can find any artifact connected to the story? Me thinks so.
This is a Mormon straw man. Of course metal plates were used to record a lot of things. But is there one example of metal plates being used to record entire books of the Bible? Nope. There are reasons for that I will write up later. This argument is adequately refuted by my friend Sandra Tanner here.
The whole plate idea was invented by Smith to try and give his story weight. It is the ONLY artifact that could have verified the civilization of the Nephites, and something along those lines was needed so that Smith could claim that there was a real people called the Nephites. But that one artifact conveniently disappears, and no one has found another one in almost 200 years. Funny how there are living “prophets” today that supposedly have the power to “translate” plates, and there has been many statements claiming that there are lots more of these plates around waiting to be “translated”, and God supposedly even promised to bring them forth, but again we have nothing. Perhaps they are some of those “slippery treasures” that the Nephites spoke of in the fictional Book of Mormon?
What does this say about Mormon “prophets”?
Shem,
all this truth being sent your way on all these various topics has to be killing you. I suspect this is the real reason you were blaming me for the reason you almost left. I am your scapegoat, Throw me under the bus and use me as the reason for leaving. Thats fine, I dont mind, If it means the truth is getting to you, then so be it.
Rick
I know the truth, and very little of it is coming from this web site.
Kate, Grindael, Rick
peaking of Plates, when did I ever say that the books of the Bible have been found on plates? I never did. However, the fact that plates were used at that time is sufficient to accept the possibility of those books being recorded in that way.
Of course you will never except this kind of reasoning. As Grindael so apply demonstrates, until the exact plates that are mentioned are found you will always maintain that there is no proof of anything. I actually doubt you would except that, even, but we will have to wait and see on that point.
To me, the fact that plates were used, and it seems were used with some regularity, is enough for me to accept that they were used to record the words of prophets and the history of the Jews.
Kate
I like your argument, except for the fact that for many decades the Archeological world argued that mentioning plates at all was proof that the book was false, as such plates were not used in the Old World. As to your scriptural references, it is mentioned as only one very specific plate that is part of priestly garments, and thus would not count as proof of metal plates being used to keep records by itself.
shem,
My point isn’t that metal plates were/weren’t used in ancient times for record keeping, my point is that JS most likely read those scriptures and came up with the idea of gold plates, a breastplate and the Urim and Thummim. That is not a coincidence. As for metal plates being written upon, I don’t doubt that people wrote or engraved things on them. They probably used anything they could get their hands on. Grindael has given you a great response to that. Personally, I don’t need to know that people used to write on plates made of any kind of metal to know that the BoM is the product of Joseph Smith’s imagination, with parts of it being plagiarized from several different sources. The evidence (or lack of) for the BoM speaks for itself even without bringing metal plates into it.
Of course you have to say, “the possibility of them being recorded in that way” because there are absolutely zero instances of this happening. You can prove nothing at all with any examples that are extant today. Of course the plates will never be found. Smith claimed to have given them back to his “angel”, but we have other good testimony that he simply deposited them back in the hill where he found them (William Smith among others who was one who actually felt a metal “something” under a cloth and said it weighed between 40-60 lbs.).
And trying to say that we would not accept the plates as historical if they really existed is just your own wishful thinking which you are quite good at. Jesus gave proof that he was the Son of God by his miracles, and said that if you don’t believe my words believe the miracles. (John 10:25 “Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, verse 38: “But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”) Joseph Smith has only words and a handful of witness accounts that have many problems. Thousands saw Jesus’ miracles. Only a few, under controlled circumstances claimed they saw Smith’s plates. And as I said above, they were needed to give credibility to Smith’s book, because unlike Peter, Paul and Jesus, Smith could do no miracles that weren’t like the plates, witnessed under very controlled circumstances. In fact there is a great story about how Smith tried to walk on water, and did this trick with a planks on a river, until someone caught on and sabotaged one of the planks:
Of course there are examples of small amounts of verses being put on metal (some probably used as jewelry -or perhaps a kind of mezuzah – the silver amulets found in 1979), but really that is all that has been found. There are ZERO instances of any whole or partial books of the Torah ever written on metal plates as a means of preserving them. ZERO.
The copper scroll (written on copper & tin) found among the Dead Sea Scrolls (The best example of what can go wrong with doing it this way) wasn’t even a Book from the Torah, it was basically a treasure map. As for Jews writing the Torah on metal, this would possibly be so against their customs that it is doubtful that it would ever happen.
The k’laf/gevil parchment on which the Sefer Torah scroll is written, the hair or sinew with which the panels of parchment are sewn together, and the quill pen with which the text is written all must come from ritually clean —that is, kosher— animals. It is important to note here that the Essenes never wrote any of the Torah on metal, they only wrote on parchment (and a few tablets that may or may not be from that sect, which only contain pseudopigrapha) and hid up the scrolls in jars. In fact Moses, who would have wanted to preserve the Torah, and did so in the Ark of the Covenant, used gevil parchment according to the Talmud. According to the Talmud all scrolls must be written on gevil parchment that is treated with salt, flour and m’afatsim (a residual of wasp enzyme and tree bark) AND ROLLED UP in order to be valid. (See, http://www.globaljms.co.il/SKIN-NEW/Html/answers.htm, also Wegner, Paul D. Journey from Text to Translation, Baker Academic, 1999, pg. 95) This is probably why the copper scroll and the silver amulets were rolled up. This is another custom that throws doubt on Smith’s metal book invention.
Moses had plenty of access to gold, but the Torah was never written on metal plates. The only thing that comes close is Job’s wishful thinking where he writes,
But Job’s words were not the Torah, and he had no idea that they would be written down and canonized. But God granted his wish, and they were preserved forever! And God didn’t need to do it on metal plates. Following this wish is one of the most sublime verses ever penned by anyone:
Kate
Whose giving opinion now? I guess we can just dismiss this like you try to dismiss everything I say.
The point is that there is nothing in the record to contradict what Joseph Smith claimed, so as the record stands it is insufficient to prove him false or true, and thus is not a good enough reason to believe or disbelieve.
Grindael
Joseph Smith did many miracles, and they are recorded, being witnessed by hundreds, and even thousands. There is just as much hard evidence of Joseph Smith’s miracles as there are of Christ’s, for which we have only two first hand accounts (Matthew and John). It always amazes me at how you can claim so little is sufficient to prove one but not another.
And there are many problems with the first hand accounts of those “miracles” and “visions” of Smith, and what took place in Kirtland and elsewhere. http://www.i4m.com/think/history/holy-ghost.htm Please give me an instance where one of Smith’s miracles was witnessed by “thousands”. And I not only mentioned Christ, I mentioned Peter and Paul. Or did you miss that?
shem,
I might believe in Joseph Smith and his BoM if there was one shred of evidence to support it. There isn’t, and that is not just my opinion either. I searched for truth for several years and found there wasn’t any. The truth is he was a con man and unfortunately he conned many of my own family.
If you believe all you read about Joseph Smith and his miracles, tell me, do you also believe in all of his failed prophecies?
I would like to see the evidence of Thousands witnessed his miracles. Please provide this evidence or is it just mere opinion?
The miracles of Joseph Smith and others were witnessed, and were testified to by the witnesses many years later.
There was the instance of healing along the banks of the Mississippi River in 1839 I believe, in which hundreds were healed. Maybe thousands is an exaggeration, but I do believe it was over one thousand that was healed, though I could be wrong.
However, the main point I was making is that we today have only the eye witness account of less then half a dozen people for the miracles recorded in the Bible. Matthew and John are the only two eye witnesses to the miracles of Christ, and Luke is the only one who testifies to the miracles of Paul and Peter, and he was not even and eye witness to most of them.
Having so little actual evidence for any of these miracles, how is it that you can accept them, and yet yet cannot except modern miracles that have so many more witnesses to them?
Now, speaking of Kirtland, I had a good chuckle over the article provided, as it says the same thing can be claimed of early Christianity. I find it funny that you want to claim this of other religions, but don’t see that the same claim can be made of yours.
Shem said
You really dont have a clue do you? John and Matthew are the only two eye witness to the Miracles of Christ? You really believe that? Are you sure? Do you need to go back and read the Bible again? What if I show you from the Bible that your wrong?
I know, you will just claim it is me believe something that is not their, Let see, How about we start with this.
Now let me remind you of what you said?
You said
You said only these two are witnesses to the miracles of Christ, well unless you feel turning water into wine is not a miracle, then this shows your wrong, We have Mary, the mother of Jesus, His disciples, that could be the 12 apostles, or some other people, then we have servants, we dont know exactly how many their were, but it’s plural, so at least two servants. We have the ruler and the bridegroom mentioned, so thats is more people that just the two.
I wonder, do you really read you bible? If so, how did you forget this? I have no doubt, many people drank that wine and heard what happened, so it could be possibly hundreds or more. Jewish wedding feasts last about 7 days, so their were possibly hundreds of not thousands, and no doubt people told others what happened.
Do I need to remind you of the other miracles where hundreds and thousands were witnesses to the miracles of Jesus? I will if need be, if you know what I am talking about, then will you retract what you said? or simply spin it in your favor and reject the truth for more lies?
Rick
Do I really need to remind you again of what I said? How often are you going to ignore parts of my words so that you can make false accusations about the rest?
I said, and you quote “that we today have only the eye witness account of less then half a dozen people for the miracles recorded in the Bible.”
Now, I have no problem accepting the accounts that we have, and thus I have no problem in believing that thousands actually witnessed these events. But I never said anything to the contrary. What I said is that we have only the eye witness accounts of these two men.
Mary was there when Jesus turned water to wine, and many servants witnessed it. But the only eye witness we have testifying of this miracle is John. We do not have Mary saying that it happened, or any of the servants.
Yes, there were times in which thousands witnessed the miracles of Christ. However, we today have only the two eye witnesses testifying to them. We do not have the thousands swearing outr affidavits as to the miracles occurrence.
We have more eye witness accounts for the miracles of Joseph Smith than we do for the miracles of Christ. That is simply a fact, and your twisting my words around will not change that.
Shem,
I swear you will reject the truth at every turn.
You really mean that even though the Bible tells us that Jesus twice, feed 4,000 plus people, and in reality it was probably closer to 10 thousand or more, because it was not just 4,000 single people, it was family’s.
And we have the 12 apostles taking the bread and fish in baskets so no food is wasted, and they all ate of it, but you reject all of this and simply say, I believe it really only was one or two people because we dont have accounts in written and signed eye witness of every single person that ate the bread.
Well this shows how ignorant you really are. In order for me or anyone to Believe JS healed all the people you claim were healed, I will need you to bring forth written and signed accounts by every person that witnessed it, and then since you could just bring forth any person and have them sigh something, you need to provide evidence that these people really did see it.
Now I know you cannot do that, and then you will say how crazy that is and even likely impossible.
Yet this is exactly what you are saying must be done in order for you to say, This proves the Bible. You just prove by the way you say things, shows you reject the truth and will believe what you want to despite the evidence otherwise.
Rick
Why is it that you never listen to what I say? Why is it that you ignore half of my words in almost every post I write? It seems the only way you can even respond to me is false statements that are so obviously lies it seems a waste of time.
You say “you reject all of this and simply say, I believe it really only was one or two people because we dont have accounts in written and signed eye witness of every single person that ate the bread.”
Let us ignore the idiocy of the comment and simply go back to what I actually said.
“I have no problem accepting the accounts that we have, and thus I have no problem in believing that thousands actually witnessed these events.”
Did you read this part of my comment? If you did you flat out ignored it. I clearly said that I believe these events were witnessed by thousands, as I fully accept the accounts given. So, once again, you are lying concerning what I have said so that you may twist my words into something they are not.
You say “In order for me or anyone to Believe JS healed all the people you claim were healed, I will need you to bring forth written and signed accounts by every person that witnessed it, and then since you could just bring forth any person and have them sigh something, you need to provide evidence that these people really did see it.
Yet this is exactly what you are saying must be done in order for you to say, This proves the Bible. ”
This is not what I have said, and thus we have another false statement from you. When will it end?
What I said is that evidence you use for accepting the Bible is no greater than the evidence I use for accepting Joseph Smith. Thus, when you claim there is insufficient evidence for Joseph Smith you are applying a double standard.
For once on these blogs, try to get my words right.
Shem, I dont reject what you say and I am not making false statements, I cannot help if if you dont think or back track before writing.
You said
Then you said
Here is the problem, You also said
So you admit their were people, hundreds or thousands in some cases that were witness to what Jesus did, yet since they did not write the Bible you reject them. Thats stupid logic.
Lets see, If Mary spoke to Jesus about the wine, The servants were told by Jesus to deliver the wine,
and the host spoke with Jesus and drank the wine. Or the 4000 plus people ate the fish and bread Jesus multiplied, or the 12 apostles passed it out, ate it, picked up the left over and even argued over it, are you saying these people are NOT EYE WITNESSES? THEY WERE there, so they either are eye witnesses or they are not. Just because they did not write the Bible does not mean they were not eye witness or we can reject them since that is stupid logic.
Police speak with eye witnesses and when they need to go to court, they dont have every single person filling out paper work and saying, since you did not sign a paper that means we can reject what you claim to saw.
If you want to use that logic, then we can reject everything Joseph smith claimed since we dont have “eye witness” Accounts according to your standards. People saw the first Vision? People really saw and handled the gold plates? Really? did they sign something saying so? Or is it just your logic that states what is true or false?
Rick
Again your own stupidity is showing through.
“So you admit their were people, hundreds or thousands in some cases that were witness to what Jesus did, yet since they did not write the Bible you reject them. Thats stupid logic.”
This is not my logic. If you aren’t ignoring my words than you clearly lack sufficient skill in language to understand them.
I do not reject any witness. My point it that we don’t have these witnesses. Get this through your head, please. I accept that these events were witnessed by many people. However, I can neither accept nor reject the testimony of these people because I do not have their testimony in order to make that judgement concerning it. The only testimony I have is from a handful of people. I cannot read and compare the testimony of Mary to that of John, because I do not have her testimony. I cannot read and compare the testimony of the thousands that Jesus fed because I do not have them.
You mention the police. If there were hundreds who witnessed a crime the court would still only allow the testimony of those specifically called as witnesses. If the police chose out three then the court would not allow the testimony of the rest to be admitted into evidence. The court does not reject the testimony of the others, but it does not allow the testimony of the others.
This is all I am saying. If we are to use the testimony of two people we cannot claim evidence of more than two testimonies. We can accept that evidence and say that there were hundreds or thousands who did, in fact, witness the event. But we cannot claim those hundreds and thousands as evidence for the event.
Please attempt to understand this before you go off with more false accusations about what I say.
Shem,
I fully understand you, You just cannot back up your mouth and dont like it.
You admit their were thousands that were feed, I understand your not denying that, You admit Mary, and others were there when Jesus turned water into wine, Your not denying that, I get it and never said you denied that.
But what your saying and I dont agree with you on is this, Your saying all these people that drank the wine and ate the fish and bread are not “Eye witnesses” Since they did not write an account and only the people that wrote the Bible are the real eye witnesses.
But here are some problems with what your saying. You Shem said this
You said it now back it up, Who are these witness? Can you provide written accounts of them saying they witnessed it? If not then why should I believe they even existed and saw it, if you reject the hundreds and thousands since only two or three people wrote about it.
Then Jesus and the apostles quote from the OT and talk about all things that took place, but how can we trust those accounts to have happened when in reality we have only one person talking about them?
Then you said
You really like saying, I believe, as if believing will be evidence enough. It really does not matter if it was thousands or hundreds, how many people gave written eye witness accounts to this happening?
If it was only one or two saying hundreds or thousands were healed then how is this different than what your saying about the Bible?
If you claim hundreds or thousands gave written accounts, then provide them, if your saying it took place you need to back it up, if you say it and cannot back it up then how do you know it happened? You could simply make things up and claim they are true. You know making stories up and claiming they are true with no evidence is called lying.
Rick
Now you have proved that you have no grasp of what I am saying.
“Your saying all these people that drank the wine and ate the fish and bread are not “Eye witnesses” Since they did not write an account and only the people that wrote the Bible are the real eye witnesses.”
This is not what I am saying at all. These people are Eye Witnesses to the events. However, because we do not have their testimonies we cannot claim their testimony as evidence of the event. These are two very different things, and it seems that you cannot grasp that.
What evidence do we have that Christ fed thousands with only a few loafs of bread. We have the testimony of two eye witnesses. We do not have the testimony of the thousands.
Based on that evidence can was conclude that Christ did in fact feed the thousands, and thus conclude that thousands actually did witness the event. Yes we can.
Let me try this another way. You cannot use the conclusion you draw from evidence as evidence itself. Thus, while we can conclude, based on the evidence we have, that there were thousands of witness to some events, we cannot then turn that around and claim that we have the evidence of thousands of witnesses, because we don’t.
“If it was only one or two saying hundreds or thousands were healed then how is this different than what your saying about the Bible?”
It isn’t different from the Bible. I never claimed there are hundreds of eyewitness accounts to these events. I did claim there were more than what we have for the Bible, and that is true. But until you get the concept of what is and what isn’t evidence strait there is little point in discussing it.
Shem, I dont care if you think I am wrong, How about this instead, You lie and have no evidence for what you say, then when called on it you run around in circles and call me names to draw away from the fact you lied.
So lets do this, You said
You also said
Stop making excuses, Bring forth the evidence to back up what you said or admit your wrong.
I dont care about anything else, I will hold you accountable, you said it now back it up. For the record You said this stuff first and started this whole thing, so back it up or shut up.
Rick
The entire discussion has been about evidence, and how much is required to accept a belief in something. The witnesses to the miracles of Joseph Smith are a side note to that discussion. My main point is that of evidence. There is very little evidence for any miracle or any really spiritual event in the Bible. This is a fact.
As to Joseph Smith, we have the witness of Newel Knight, as recorded in his Journal, that Joseph Smith cast a Devil out of him. He is his account of his testimony that he gave at a court hearing.
“Mr. Seymour asked: ‘Did the prisoner, Joseph Smith, Jun., cast the devil out of you?’
Answer: ‘No, sir.’
Question: ‘Why, have you not had the devil cast out of you?’
Answer: ‘Yes, sir.’
Question: ‘And had not Joseph Smith some hand in it being done?’
Answer: ‘Yes, sir.’
Question: ‘And did he not cast him out of you?’
Answer: ‘No, sir, it was done by the power of God, and Joseph Smith was the instrument in the hands of God on this occasion. He commanded him to come out of me in the name of Jesus Christ.’
Question: ‘And are you sure it was the devil?’
Answer: ‘Yes, sir.’
Question: ‘Did you see him after he was cast out of you?’
Answer: ‘Yes, sir, I saw him.’
Question: ‘Pray, what did he look like?’
(Here one of the lawyers on the part of the defense told me I need not answer that question.) I replied: ‘I believe I need not answer that question, but I will do it if I am allowed to ask you one, and you can answer it. Do you, Mr. Seymour, understand the things of the Spirit?’
‘No,’ answered Mr. Seymour, ‘I do not pretend to such big things.’
‘Well, then,’ I replied, ‘it will be of no use for me to tell you what the devil looked like, for it was a spiritual sight and spiritually discerned, and, of course, you would not understand it were I to tell you of it.’”
This is quoted by Diane Magnum in the 1986 July issue of the New Era.
From the Journals of Wilfred Woodruff
“On the morning of the 22nd of July, 1839, [the Prophet] arose reflecting upon the situation of the Saints of God in their persecutions and afflictions. He called upon the Lord in prayer, and the power of God rested mightily upon him. And as Jesus healed all the sick around Him in His day, so Joseph, the Prophet of God, healed all around on this occasion. He healed all in his house and dooryard, then, in company with Sidney Rigdon and several of the Twelve, he went through among the sick lying on the bank of the river, and he commanded them in a loud voice, in the name of Jesus Christ, to come up and be made whole, and they were all healed.
When he healed all that were sick on the east side of the river, they crossed the Mississippi River to Montrose, where we were. The first house they went into was President Brigham Young’s. He was sick on his bed at the time. The Prophet went into his house and healed him, and they all came out together…
While waiting for the ferryboat, a man of the world, knowing of the miracles which had been performed, came to him and asked him if he would not go and heal his twin children, about five months old, who were both lying sick nigh unto death. They were some two miles from Montrose.
The Prophet said he could not go, but after pausing some time, he said he would send some one to heal them. He then turned to me and said, “You go with the man and heal his children.”
Now, there are other accounts that are listed at http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Healings_and_miracles#endnote_ww1.
Some more accounts are listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Joseph_Smith#cite_note-2
I am sure I could find more if I tried.
As I said, there are many witness accounts to the miracles of Joseph Smith; more than there are for the miracles of Christ or any other figure in the Bible.
Shem,
It is clear you dont believe the Bible, I know you claim you do, but your a liar. You cannot claim to believe the Bible, but then throw it under the bus at every turn, claim to believe the Bible but then say, It is not translated correctly and claim to believe the Bible, but then reject everything it says, and simply dismiss it as, Man wrote it and got it wrong.
You can claim JS did many things, and the Bible cannot prove these things about Jesus, But here is what the Bible says.
The BoM and the D and C and the pearl do not say this, God’s word says this. And their is evidence to back it up. But what good is evidence if you claim it cannot be trusted because you want to believe a false prophet who made things up and lied?
Like the 3 witness that claim they saw the golden plates. Not only did they retract that statement, but they never really saw the actual plates, They felt them or saw them with eyes of faith. And yet you expect me to believe they can be trusted?
I think most Mormons do believe the Bible. But they have been taught that it is so incomplete, so tarnished by the ages, that it does not give a complete picture of anything regarding salvation. It takes, as Shem said “further light and knowledge” to make sense of it. I don’t think this makes Mormons liars in relation to the Bible. Putting distrust on the Bible is the only way that Jo Smith could get people to buy into the Book of Mormon and his other “revelations”. It is interesting that Smith himself said that “If their is one word of the Lord that supports the doctrin it is enough to make it a true doctrin.” (Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 2, 1841–1845, p.165, March 27, 1842). Of course he said this in relation to Baptism for the Dead, because that is all there is. He just ignores the context of what is there, as all Mormons continue to do. When Smith elaborated on this doctrine in his Liberty Jail letters from 1839, (about the Book of Life) he gets into all kinds of doctrinal errors. Such is the nature of “additional light and knowledge” when it comes from the likes of Jo Smith.
Shem,
Knight did claim that Smith cast the devil out of him, and his testimony from that trial was published in 1831-32. Those trial minutes were kept by Justice Joel K. Nobel, and this is from his minutes,
The 1831 account of Knight’s testimony is similar to the one that appears above. The 1831 account reads,
In Knight’s autobiography written after 1846, he doesn’t even quote from his own journals about the incident, he gives the account written in Smith’s 1838 History.
There are no other first hand accounts of this “miracle”, even though it was supposed to have taken place in Joseph Knight Sr.’s house with a bunch of people. There is only the fact that Knight claimed to have a seizure while trying to pray and that Smith cast the devil out of him, and that Knight could never describe the devil, even though he claimed to see him. The Smith history has Knight contorting and flying around the room, and then he supposedly has a vision of God.
Smith’s manuscript history originally dated this first miracle as occurring after the 9 June 1830 conference, but in the History of the Church it is changed to April. Smith dictated a “revelation” dated June 1830. Not surprisingly given the supposed “miracle” in Colesville, the subject of this revelation is Satan, but the revelation never speaks of the Knight exorcism or the Colesville area. Rather the revelation describes Satan appearing to Moses and pretending to be Jesus Christ. (History of the Church, 1:98-99; Moses 1:12-24)
After this supposed incident, Smith then claimed that Satan appeared to him as an “angel of light”, and is exposed by the Archangel Michael, and Smith dictates a revelation on the “vision of Moses” which describes a visionary deception by Satan to him.
Newel’s brother’s name was Nahum. Like Joseph Smith’s mother Lucy who never mentions her own son’s claimed 1820 vision, Joseph Knight, (father of Newell) in his recollection of early Mormon History never mentions this miracle, although it supposedly occurred in his own house. Lucy Smith also never mentions this first “miracle” in her biography. When Smith wrote his 1838 history, he was assisted by Knight in writing the incident up, and it was obviously elaborated upon. The account you quoted from appeared in Tenth Book of the Faith-Promoting Series, Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1883, pp. 46–104. (Which was compiled by Smith & Knight in 1838, with Knight using snippets from his journal, and are therefore suspect, because no one else confirms the details of what happened to him).I find the account highly suspect, and was probably made up by Knight to help his friend Joseph out of his 1830 trial difficulty.