“He probably sinned, was forgiven, and later glorified and exalted to His current state”

Mormon Connor C. (this guy, on this YouTube thread) replies to me:

Screen Shot 2013-01-17 at 8.45.58 AM

For those of you who can’t read the image, here is the text:

“I already responded to that question Aaron. Yes I believe He [God] probably sinned, was forgiven, and later glorified and exalted to His current state. Sure that’s different from traditional Christianity, but Christianity has been wrong before. That God would help us progress in the same way, to me, highlights His overwhelming love and grace and mercy.”

Notice how Connor makes the connection between God having progressed from being a sinner to being an exalted God, and his view of God’s “love and grace and mercy.” For many Mormons, “love and grace and mercy” is God helping sinners become the kind of Gods who are worshipped by billions of their own spirit children. For Christians, “love and grace and mercy” is God forgiving and empowering us to enjoy making much of Him — the God who never sinned, the “Holy, Holy, Holy… Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come.” (Revelation 4:8)

And yet some Mormons continue to be in denial about this even being a problem in Mormonism.

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74 Responses to “He probably sinned, was forgiven, and later glorified and exalted to His current state”

  1. Rick B says:

    Again Clyde,
    Stop following your false prophets and read the Bible.
    God said we cannot become Gods. So Again, Either God lied or you are wrong, it is that simple.

  2. shematwater says:

    Rick

    Why the need to change the subject?

    As to this topic, you are correct that we have no direct pronouncement one way or the other. What we do have is a promise that all things will be revealed to us at the second coming, and I am content to wait until then if necessary.
    Honestly the whole topic doesn’t concern me, unless someone is trying to teach it as church doctrine. That concerns me, as it is not affirmed by any of the leaders that I know of, whether officially or unofficially. As such it is not our place to declare it as doctrine.
    As I said before it is speculation, and is thus a pointless topic of discussion.

    Now, I have to mention once again that you are misrepresenting my comments concerning vacuums, and must ask that you stop doing so.

    Grindael

    When I said few people understand the doctrine, I was including most LDS members, as well as myself in that. I don’t understand it as well as I would like. Though I have my thoughts and opinions on several points I have read nothing to either confirm or deny them. Again, it is speculation and thus a pointless discussion, unless we teach only that which has been taught us.

  3. Rick B says:

    Shem said Now, I have to mention once again that you are misrepresenting my comments concerning vacuums, and must ask that you stop doing so.

    Please feel free to explain how exactly I am misrepresenting your comments?
    I keep saying you said that if God can tell us/you through revelation what brand of Vacuum to use to clean the temple, then how come the prophets cannot go to Him for the Bigger issues.

    Now this was you exact quote to Enki about the vacuum’s

    Enki
    If God so chose he could, through revelation, instruct people on which brand of vacuum to use. Yes. Does he do that every time, or even frequently? Probably not. However, the need to clean the temple, and the manner in which it is done is probably done through revelation. So the need to repair the vacuum, though not a direct revelation, can be said to be the result of revelation.

    Now please go back, quote me exactly and explain where I am wrong?
    You are clearly saying if God chooses he could through revelation, instruct people on which brand of vacuum to use to clean the temple.

    Then you say, Does he do that every time, or even frequently? Probably not. I never said, you said God does this every time. Then you said, So the need to repair the vacuum, though not a direct revelation, can be said to be the result of revelation.

    It can BE A RESULT OF REVELATION. Again More Opinion from you, seems thats all you have are your opinions.

    Shem said What we do have is a promise that all things will be revealed to us at the second coming, and I am content to wait until then if necessary.

    Shem, what we HAVE NOW! Is the Word of God where He says, Their are no other gods before Him, and we will never be gods. Why do you reject Him in favor of your false prophets?

  4. shematwater says:

    Rick

    “Shem, what we HAVE NOW! Is the Word of God where He says, Their are no other gods before Him, and we will never be gods. Why do you reject Him in favor of your false prophets?”

    I have read neither of these claims in any of the words inspired by God. For this reason I have rejected the false prophets that have created, built up, and perpetuated the false churches and religious ideas that are accepted by the rest of the world, including all those that are part of the Christian movement.

    As to misrepresenting my words, this occurs through the context in which you use it. You try to sensationalize the comment in your questioning, without regard to the context in which it was used. You also place it as “Well your God can talk about vacuums but not such and such.” This misrepresents my words concerning revelation.
    My comment was to a very specific question, and should be used only in that context. If you wish to reference the idea I put forth without misrepresentation then you would use other quotes that have a much more general application.

  5. Rick B says:

    I said

    Their are no other gods before Him, and we will never be gods.

    Shem replied with,

    I have read neither of these claims in any of the words inspired by God. For this reason I have rejected the false prophets that have created

    Makes me wonder if you really read your Bible as you claim. I know I have shared these verses before, and I believe others have also.

    “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God….is there a God beside me; yea, there is no God; I know not any.” Isa. 44:6&8

    “To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?…for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.” Isa. 46:5&9

    “I am the Lord; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another.” Isa. 42:8

    Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved , all the ends of the earth : for I [am] God , and [there is] none else.

    Isa 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    In these verses, God clearly says, Their are NO GODS before Him and NONE WILL BE FORMED AFTER HIM. So If none will be formed after him, them that means we will not be gods.

  6. shematwater says:

    Rick

    I miss spoke slightly in my last post. When I said I have never read the two claims in the inspired words of the prophets I meant the concept that you were claiming. You did use a quote similar to the Bible, which I have read many times, namely “no other gods before Him” which can be seen in Isaiah 43: 10. However, you take this to be applying to the nature of God, while I understand this as applying to his authority over this earth. So, while the wording you used I have read in the Bible, the concept you are trying to put forth I do not see in that volume.

  7. Rick B says:

    Shem said

    So, while the wording you used I have read in the Bible, the concept you are trying to put forth I do not see in that volume.

    You dont see it because your blinded by your desire to be a god someday. Your sadly going to be sent to the lake of fire and never see the kingdom of heaven, God was/is clear. So clear you have to reject what He said. But Romans tells us, we are with out excuse.

  8. shematwater says:

    Rick

    I don’t reject anything that God said. I reject what men have claimed he said when they have no authority to make such claims. I reject mans interpretation of God’s word; but I never reject His word.

  9. Rick B says:

    Shem said

    Rick

    I don’t reject anything that God said. I reject what men have claimed he said when they have no authority to make such claims. I reject mans interpretation of God’s word; but I never reject His word.

    What? You do to, you listen to your false prophets and the Mormon church leaders who have no clue and have no authority. Your a funny guy.

  10. connorcarpenter says:

    Hey, you guys made a post based on my comments, without my knowledge of it. That’s kind of weird to discover. Nobody bothered to send me a message through YouTube?

    Anyway, I think it’s funny that my comments are being used to typify Mormons. I’m certainly an outlier in Mormonism, and I’m pretty sure 90% of them wouldn’t agree with my ideas. I’d like the LDS church to firmly stand behind Joseph Smith and Lorenzo Snows statements on the nature of God, but it seems that the teaching is slowly being faded out. I appreciate Aaron’s passion for his concept of God, but I think it’s funny that his best response is that it’s blasphemous. Yeah, to him it might be, but newsflash!: people can think differently than you.

  11. Rick B says:

    I find it funny that you believe it, call yourself a Mormon and most likely believe it was taught one time from Mormon leaders. Yet we have Mormons here who claim it is false, and they are correct.

    So as I said before, You guys wonder why we dont believe you, you guys cannot even agree.

  12. connorcarpenter says:

    By that logic, how can anyone trust Christians, when there’s so many different denominations? How can we trust the Bible, when there’s so many that preach different things from it? As if all buddhists, all hindis, all muslims, all republicans, all pacifists, all vegetarians, all environmentalists, had to adhere to exactly the same things as others that use their same title. Big surprise then, that, wow, 2 Mormons can have different opinions on what their leaders teach. Yep, people actually don’t have the same exact copy of the same exact brain, and therefore, will think differently than there neighbor. Handy thing to know if you want to interact with the people around you.

  13. Rick B says:

    Connor said

    By that logic, how can anyone trust Christians, when there’s so many different denominations?

    I love how you guys always try and say that since there are many denominations in Christianity then we cannot be trust worthy, yet you guys always fail to mention that this problems also is with in Mormonism. So many Mormon off shoot groups it’s not funny.

    Then you said

    How can we trust the Bible, when there’s so many that preach different things from it?

    Funny hwo you guys claim it is not translated properly, yet you still use it, then you have JS who was told by God to correct it, yet you dont use that copy since you dont trust it, and you have (False) Prophets who you claim can and do receive revelation from God, yet not once has a G.C. ever been held where the Prophet has said, I went to God in prayer and asked about the Bible being translated incorrectly so here is the correct version straight from God. Then the BoM has 4,000 plus changes, so that does not show it to be trust worthy.

    Then you said

    Big surprise then, that, wow, 2 Mormons can have different opinions on what their leaders teach.

    See, here is the real difference between us Christians not agreeing and you mormons not agreeing.

    We Christians do all agree on the major points, Grace alone, Jesus died for our sins, God is eternal, was never a man, Etc.

    We believe Gods word the Bible gives us all these answers and is how He spoke to us. You guys believe you need a prophet to speak to you, that prophet claims he is the only man who can speak for God, and that he the prophet cannot lead the church astray.

    So when we have one Mormon claiming the prophet spoke and said God was once a man, who was a sinner like us, and another saying thats not true, then we have a problem. You both believe your prophet said what you each believe. So one is saying, Yes God spoke through the prophet and taught this, the other is saying, No God did not speak to the prophet and say that.

    As Christians, if we cannot agree, then that still does not change what Scripture says, and in most cases the Bible is clear on the issue, it’s more a matter of the person rejects what the Bibles says, Like you guys do with the Bible.

    Example, The Bible is clear women cannot be pastors of Churchs, They can hold all other postions, just not the head pastor. Women dont like this, so they reject what the word of God says.

    Or take the homosexual, Scripture is very clear and forth right, the homosexual WILL NEVER ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. Yet the homo does not like to here this, so he rejects Scripture and claims thats not true. He/she can reject it all they want, but that does not change what it says.

    But yet when you guys cannot agree, your simply disagreeing with your prophet and basically claiming you know more than he does. That is the difference.

  14. connorcarpenter says:

    I know the same problems exist in Mormonism, that’s why I gave my opinion that it should be perfectly reasonable for 2 Mormons to disagree. I don’t believe the Book of Mormon is any more trustworthy than the Bible, or that the Prophets are completely literally the mouthpieces of God. I don’t believe modern prophets have to agree completely in every word they say, because we don’t see that consistency in the Bible. I don’t believe the Prophet or the Church ever said anything with a single specific interpretation, only that their words could contain truth as revealed to each individual by the Holy Spirit. I don’t claim to know any more than the next Mormon, or to be any more right than anyone else, or know more truth than anyone of religious system.

    All I know is that after seeking God for myself, that Holy Spirit lead me to resonate with certain doctrines, and many of those doctrines include the ones taught in Mormonism. Therefore, I identify as a Mormon, not because I believe in 100% of what my leaders say or other Mormons believe, but because the worldview resonates with me more than any other one that has been presented to me. However, because that experience is personal and subjective, I could never claim it as truth for someone other than myself – I could only suggest to another to seek what the Holy Spirit speaks to his own soul.

    If you think the Bible, taken literally by it’s word, is clear and forth right on all of it’s views, you haven’t read it through an unbiased lens. There’s contradictions everywhere, and in most of the cases, Bible apologists just apply their currently existing paradigms to solve the problems. The best way I’ve found to cope with the inconsistency I see in all the belief systems I’ve learned of is to have faith in what I’ve experienced and what I’ve identified as the Holy Spirit, and allow that to direct me to the portions of truth I find in all things, including Mormonism.

  15. Rick B says:

    I dont understand how your not an atheist.
    You said

    I don’t believe the Book of Mormon is any more trustworthy than the Bible,

    JS claimed it was the most “Correct” Book of any and a man could get nearer to God by abiding by it’s teachings. So If you disagree with JS, Then to me your saying you dont agree with Him. If you dont agree with Him, then how can you believe he is a real and true prophet of God?

    Then you said

    or that the Prophets are completely literally the mouthpieces of God.

    Well they said this, not me saying they said this. So again, if the prophets claimed this and you dont agree, then how can you believe anything they say?

    Then you said

    I don’t believe modern prophets have to agree completely in every word they say,

    Well again, they said They cannot lead the church astray, I did not say they said they. So if you feel they dont need to agree, then that imply’s they could lead the church astray. And we find this problem in examples of Adam God, Blood atonement, polygamy and other such doctrines. These LDS prophets said these things were from God, they are doctrine, they are scripture, they will never change and things along that lines, yet They have since either changed, ended or are called false Doctrine among LDS.

    You said

    All I know is that after seeking God for myself, that Holy Spirit lead me to resonate with certain doctrines, and many of those doctrines include the ones taught in Mormonism.

    I know the HOLY SPIRIT has told me your going to the lake of fire for all of eternity for rejecting the truth of God and exchanging it for a lie, Gal 1:8-9. So you can claim God lead you, but in reality the god of this world and JS father, satan has lead you astray. Sadly I know as Shem and Clyde and others you will reject this in favor the false prophets you would rather follow and listen to.

  16. connorcarpenter says:

    I am not an atheist, but I am an agnostic Mormon – I haven’t seen any convincing objective evidence for any belief system, so the best I can do is follow what I’ve subjectively experienced through what I perceive as the Holy Spirit. It’s not that I disagree with Joseph Smith or the other modern Prophets, it’s that I don’t believe that what they say had one singular interpretation or one specific meaning. I interpret their words the best way I can, rationally and emotionally. And I think Mormonism makes the best sense when you consider that all of the leaders were occasionally uninspired, imperfect, sinful, mortal men, but that God still has His hand in making sure good comes of it. Probably just like he does in all belief systems. Anyway, I’m totally fine with you believing in your own subjective interpretation of what my eternal existence is going to be. Obviously, that doesn’t ring true to me at all.

  17. Rick B says:

    I did not say you were an atheist, I said, I am surprised that you are not an atheist.

    You saying that you going to hell does not ring true for you does not make you right. JS told his wife, Either she must abide by the laws of Polygamy or God would kill her. She did not agree or it did not ring true for her, but that did not stop JS from being a false prophet and evil man.

  18. connorcarpenter says:

    And you saying that I’m going to go to a lake of fire for eternity based on your subjective experiences which lead you to believe in your brand of Christianity doesn’t mean it’s actually going to happen either. Unfortunately, God hasn’t provided any solid basis for either of our beliefs.

    I went to Bible study and attended an evangelical congregation and made a solid effort to find God there for 6 months (often amid much spiritual anguish – I wanted to find the Jesus that everyone online kept saying was absent from Mormonism yet present in mainline Christianity) I realized that it’s as faith-based as Mormonism is. It asked me to make a leap of faith towards Christianity just as Mormonism does. Anyway, I have a hard time believing God would condemn me to eternal hellfire when I gave God every opportunity to show himself in whatever way within a mainline Christian context. Due to a miracle I experienced when I was younger, I cannot refute that God exists, but according to my current experience He’s neither more or less present in any well-meaning religion.

  19. Rick B says:

    Conner said

    And you saying that I’m going to go to a lake of fire for eternity based on your subjective experiences which lead you to believe in your brand of Christianity doesn’t mean it’s actually going to happen either. Unfortunately,

    You either have not read the Bible, or you read and and ignore what it teaches.
    Nahum says

    Nahum 1:2 God [is] jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and [is] furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth [wrath] for his enemies.

    1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]:

    God will and does Judge the wicked and will not acquit the wicked.

    Jesus said

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    So if you dont get let into heaven, then where do you go?

    Jesus spoke more of Hell than he did Heaven.

    Read this also

    2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

    I dont know about you Conner, but Flaming vengeance does not sound like fun to me, and neither does Everlasting Destruction.

    Read also the Book of Jude and there are other books of the Bible you can read.

    Conner also said

    God hasn’t provided any solid basis for either of our beliefs.

    The evidence for the Bible is over whelming. You really just refuse to believe if you find ways to reject it.

    History proves the Bible, The fact that the Jews came back into their land, and I have been over in Israel. I cannot go to BoM lands, or eat the food, or talk with the people.

    We have the dead Sea scrolls, but not the Golden plates.
    We have Greek and Hebrew language, But not Reformed Egyptian.
    We have over whelming Archaeology for the Bible, But none for the BoM.
    We have no Believing Secular writers who were witness to Jesus and history proves this.
    We do not have any of these Secular Writers who have written history that they were alive when the BoM people were supposdly alive.
    The Battle of the Hill curmoh were Millions died has been moved a few times due to zero evidence.

    So if you choose to make excuses as to why you dont believe the Bible, thats fine, but the Bible has been proven and reliable, and all the non-believers that have died over the years are now where they belong being tormented and as the Bible says, God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but if you reject God and dont want to be with Him for all of eternity, He will honer your request and cast you out of His presence.

  20. connorcarpenter says:

    Perhaps there’s more evidence for the Bible that the historical narrative is accurate (vs. the BoM for example). But upon what objective proof do you base your belief that the writings weren’t all just mythology? How do you know that Jesus really performed the miracles, and the Gospel writers didn’t just invent a good story? How do you know that all of the events in the Bible weren’t just politically motivated, but then rewrote to include divine vindication for their actions? The earliest New Testament writings date to at least 30 years after Jesus’ death, wouldn’t this be enough time for dissident Jews to put together their theology of Christ and start to propagate a fictitious re-telling of events retroactively? The Bible has plenty of evidence as to it’s veracity as a historical and mythological narrative, but no evidence as to whether it’s claims of God, Christ, the afterlife, miracles, ect. are true.

    The evidence for the Bible is over whelming. You really just refuse to believe if you find ways to reject it. And you really just are willing yourself to believe if you find ways to accept it. As are all believers, however many may not know it. My faith is based on the effectiveness of the belief to better my life, and to help me connect with the spiritual world. Inasmuch as I depend on archaeological evidence or whatever objective facts, I am compelled towards atheism, which I know from experience is a destructive and depressing worldview. My leap of faith to believe in what has no objective basis should be as valid as yours, because we both are really just following our gut and doing what makes sense to us.

  21. Rick B says:

    I said

    We have no Believing Secular writers who were witness to Jesus and history proves this.

    I meant to say,

    We have Believing Secular writers who were witness to Jesus and history proves this.

  22. Rick B says:

    Well Conner,
    I guess no matter what I say, you will reject it. There are lots of good books out there that will and can answer all of these questions. Look up the author Norman Geisler, or Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel.

    I know Lee and Josh both set out as hard core atheists wanting to prove the Bible is/was false. But the evidence was so over whelming they became Christians.

  23. connorcarpenter says:

    I will do that, thanks Rick.

  24. Rick B says:

    Connor,
    Write me at, iplayjudo1970@hotmail.com

    send me an address where I can mail you some books and I will send you some books to read. One of them is called, God, the final frontier. It is 68 pages long, you could read it in less than one hour and it is full of evidence for God.

    Also if you have or can get netflix, you can find a video on the instant watch, it’s the case for Christ by Lee strobal. If you want and have never had netflix, you can sign up for one month for free and unless they removed the video, they should still have it. I know because I watched it. Rick

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