On March 4th 2013 the U.S. Tax Court ruled that Mormon plaintiff George Thompson would not be allowed to consider his church tithe a “necessary expense” in regards to paying back taxes owed to the government. Mr. Thompson owes $883,000 in back taxes, which he intends to pay, over time. In deciding how much Mr. Thompson could pay per month toward this debt, the IRS looked at his income and expenses, determining that he could afford $8389 – if he did not pay his tithing. Mr. Thompson argued that his $2110 monthly tithe was a “necessary expense” and should therefore lower the amount of his monthly debt payment. But he didn’t convince the court, so his request was denied. (Find a pdf document of the court’s decision here.)
In the course of the case, Mr. Thompson cited the “necessary expense” rule — with a twist. The rule states that a necessary expense must either provide for the taxpayer’s health and welfare or the production of income. Mr. Thompson argued that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare.
How so? asked the court.
Mr. Thompson is a temple shift coordinator and stake scouting coordinator in the Mormon Church. He told the IRS that if he didn’t pay his tithing he would no longer be allowed to hold these callings, citing a letter from his bishop that informed him that if he didn’t pay his tithing he’d have to resign his Church positions. The court had little sympathy for this, saying callings are regulated by the Church and revocation of callings is solely a Church decision, unrelated to the interests of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue. (See here and here for more background on Mr. Thompson’s case.)
Mr. Thompson provided very little evidence to support his claim that paying tithing was necessary for his spiritual health and welfare, and the Tax Court seems justified in rejecting his claim. But that doesn’t change Mr. Thompson’s conviction that paying tithing to the Mormon Church is necessary for his spiritual well-being. What does he believe will happen to him, spiritually speaking, if he doesn’t pay his tithing?
Though the LDS Church Handbook of Instructions (2010) says members should expect nothing other than “the Lord’s blessings” from tithing (Handbook 1, p. 128), Mormon Scripture is rather more pointed:
“Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming. For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.” (D&C 64:23, 24)
This sounds serious, as does this statement from past LDS President Joseph F. Smith:
“He [God] has said that those who will not observe it [tithing] are not worthy of an inheritance in Zion.” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 277).
In Mormonism, paying tithing is an important part of living a “celestial law.” And living the whole celestial law is necessary for spending eternity in God’s presence, in the celestial kingdom. Bill McKeever wrote of this,
“Another important aspect of celestial law is participation in the temple endowment ceremony. But herein lies the catch. In order to enter an LDS temple, it is necessary to obtain a temple recommend. A recommend is granted only when the Mormon has been found faithful in numerous categories, including tithe-paying. If a Mormon does not pay his tithes, he cannot get a recommend. If he cannot get a recommend, he cannot go to the temple. If he cannot go to the temple, he cannot go to the celestial kingdom; hence he receives damnation in the next life.”
Joseph Fielding Smith, another past Mormon President, quoted yet another past Mormon President to explain that anything less than a full 10% tithe was the same as no tithe at all.
“He has said that the man who fails to pay his tithing shall have no place among the people of God. Yet here are these Temples erected by the sacrifice of the poor, and to give recommends to parties who pay little or no tithing, how can you feel to take this responsibility? I could not. Part of a tithing is not tithing at all in the eyes of the law that the Lord has revealed.” (Joseph Fielding Smith quoting Lorenzo Snow, Conference Reports, April 1940, 97).
In June 2011 Henry Eyring of the Mormon Church’s First Presidency wrote,
“To receive the gift of living with Him forever in families in the celestial kingdom, we must be able to live the laws of that kingdom (see D&C 88:22). He has given us commandments in this life to develop that capacity. The law of tithing is one of those preparatory commandments.” (“The Blessings of Tithing,” Ensign, June 2011, 4-5)
To sum up, Mr. Thompson’s church says (or implies) that one who fails to pay a full 10% tithe to the Mormon Church will be:
- Burned at Christ’s coming
- Deemed unworthy of an inheritance in Zion
- Unable to hold a temple recommend
- Designated a breaker of God’s law
- Without a place among the people of God
- Denied the eternal gift of living with God and family forever
According to past LDS Authority Bruce McConkie, this all amounts to “damnation” (Mormon Doctrine, 177).
If Mr. Thompson had told the court that neglecting his tithing would result in his eternal damnation the IRS might have had sympathy for his plight and agreed that, for a Mormon, tithing is indeed a necessary expense.
“Each one must give as he has decided in his heart,
not reluctantly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver.”
(2 Corinthians 9:7)
Falcon
No, I never did get to see the Beatles in the Cavern but they did perform a couple of times in their early days in my home city of Bath. In fact all of the 60s groups performed there in a pretty basic large hall called The Pavilion. I have great memories of that time but it was a very different world 50 years ago.
I’m afraid I don’t have a Liverpudlian accent colloquially known as a ‘scouse’ accent as I’m from the West Country & my accent is more the Hollywood arghhh Jim laad variety.
It appears that John Lennon has been ‘baptised’ I don’t have any info on the other two but would be very surprised to hear that they haven’t. Here’s a link to a partial list of famous people who have been baptised. http://realmormontruth.blogspot.co.uk/
I find it hilarious that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovahs witnesses is now a Mormon.
A little off topic but I see a woman prayed at GC yesterday.
FIRST TIME EVER!
WOW don’t you love it when the prophets get a new revelation!
The Church is perfect, but the people aren’t.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/06/over-100000-gather-in-salt-lake-city-for-semiannual-mormon-conference-and-how-did-it-make-history/
Old Man,
WOW!!!! John Lennon is now a Mormon and maybe even “a god”, not just a rock and roll god but a real deal, certified Mormon god with all of the bennies.
……..and think of it, he didn’t have to pay the tithe!
I’m thinking the Mormons are really missing a revenue stream here. They could baptized people after death and then hit-up the families for a contribution, ideally 10% of the deceased estate.
The LDS church could work up a flannel board presentation that the MMs could use to convince the family of the benefits of paying up. Actually it would be looked at as a contribution because to my knowledge people who have the work done for them get out of paying the fee.
Here’s what the Mormon church could do. Charge those who are doing the dunking for the dead ritual a fee. The LDS church can guilt the membership into doing just about anything, especially those who are working like crazy to get into the CK.
<"Do some Christians say wow I get 10% extra if I go to this church because they don’t believe in tithing."
Maybe. Some Christians do a lot of things. Why does it matter what "some" Christians do?
The key difference , as mentioned by others, is that there is no requirement, and no punishment if you don't give a certain amount to an already very rich institution. LDS tithing is more like membership dues not charity.
I have a question. Why can only LDS members pay tithing to the LDS Church but no one else. If anyone else wants to give money it has to be considered a donation but can’t be considered tithing. I know someone who was excommunicated and trying to get rebaptized. During the year waiting process they were forbidden from paying tithing but could give donations to the LDS Church. Why is there a difference?
Clyde,
“Tithing is a common way for churches to fund the church as far as I know. I believe it is practiced among all Christian churches which is why I admired the guy who tithed no matter what church he went to.”
So would the LDS church mind if their members gave their tithing to other churches? Let’s take a married couple, the husband is LDS, the wife is Christian. The husband is the breadwinner while his wife stays home with the kids, earning no income. They attend the LDS church one week and the Christian church the next. Would the LDS church be OK with them paying half their money to the LDS church for tithing and half as a donation to the Christian church? Would it still be considered a full tithe? Honestly it wouldn’t even matter because until they are both LDS, sealed in an LDS temple, they cannot see or live with god after death. They cannot make it to the CK. So why bother paying tithing at all? All members who are not temple going members are throwing their money out the window and some are neglecting their kids while they do it. The sick part about this is that the LDS church tells them to neglect their children!
“If paying tithing means that you can’t pay for water or electricity, pay tithing. If paying tithing means that you can’t pay your rent, pay tithing. Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing.” (Aaron L. West, Sacred Transformations, December 2012)
With 5 million active members and only 25% of those being temple Mormons, don’ t you think the other 75% are wasting their money? What blessings come for not paying your bills or feeding your family?
Old Man said..
Respectfully disagree , you should read your bible. The concept of giving one tenth of increase to the Lord has been stipulated in the Torah and was practiced in Biblical Times.
Now the Early Christian church as documented by ACTS 4 and 5 raised the bar a bit, they demanded a 100% donation of all proceeds to the church and the church leadership would decide on what the members would have.. If they didn’t pay their full 100% donation, they were struck down dead by God.. See Ananias and Sapphira.. Acts 5
Old Man, I recognize it’s your MO to characterize all the LDS activities of that of a Corporation, doing fundraising, but what do you call it when the Local Evangelical church passes a collection plate around? Fundraising? It’s a FACT of life that organizations NEED funds to operate.. that is true for ALL Churches. How they raise the funds is different depending on organization. The LDS faith uses the concept of “Tithes and offerings”.. it’s totally on an honor system , no audits or proof required, and is done discreetly and privately…
Just for kicks. Are you saying the 6th century Catholicism is NOT Christian?. And what so-called “Christian” group do you know operates without some sort of fundraising?
Jaxi said..
first of all.. Never heard of this before, but I’ll I might imagine that a clerk at a Ward might not accept a Non-Member donation as a “Tithe”, is simply as a matter of the system of accounting. And the donation would have to be classified differently.. I’m speculating because I’m not sure, I’m not a ward clerk and never heard of this problem before as I know you can donate to the LDS church even if you’re not LDS.
Kate said..
Here is why I say the concept of Tithing is a stumbling block for our critics as it appears they have lost the Spirit of the Lord in their lives, i.e FAITH.. For it is written..
How many of the so-called Christians here actually believe the Bible when it says’ this? Seems to me if you have TRUE Faith in God and Christ, you would pay your tithing FIRST and let the Lord Bless you with a blessing so great there will be NO MORE NEED.. But most of our critics that stumble on this concept lack the TRUE Faith to follow Gods commands.
If I could make a suggestion. Lots of Christian Churches teach the tithe. Many of them make a good case for tithing as do those that make the case that tithing has been done away with. In Eastern Orthodoxy I am encouraged to try to set a goal of 10 percent and give that to my church. My church does make its spending available. It is actually a church that is struggling a bit financially. I don’t mind the concept of a 10 percent tithe as a goal. Actually many pastors are afraid to put a number on it, sometimes the 10 percent number is a problem because people hit the 10 percent and say, “well I hit my quota, so I’m good.” Which isn’t really how Christ taught us to give.
I see Mormons here defending tithing. That to me is fine. As someone pointed out, I think offering is a better word. But by focusing their arguments there they avoid the real issue. Which is using tithing to determine “worthiness.” If I can’t give 10 percent of my money to my local church, no one harasses me, or treats me like I am unworthy. But if you do not give 10 percent of all your income as an LDS member you are “unworthy” of the temple.
The General Handbook of Instructions quotes from the March 19, 1970 letter from the First Presidency sets forth a definition of what is tithed. Here is a portion of the General Handbook of Instructions from that section: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this.” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970; see also D&C 119:4).
The other issue I see is what the LDS Church does with its money and that it doesn’t show it’s members what it does with the money.
This is a quote I took from last month’s Ensign, “Our Law of Tithing,” by Howard W. Hunter.
“The Lord has established the law of tithing, and because it is His law, it becomes our obligation to observe it if we love Him and have a desire to keep His commandments and receive His blessings. In this way it becomes a debt. The man who doesn’t pay his tithing because he is in debt should ask himself if he is not also in debt to the Lord.”
As if the person who does a full tithe by LDS terms is also not in debt to the Lord. This statement may lead LDS to believe that if they are doing x,y,z they are good. There is nothing that you can do that God will ever owe you anything. You are never out of debt. Not any amount of good works, tithing, or ordinances is going to make God owe you anything. You get to God by His grace alone. Not that God doesn’t want you to do good works, but you do it out of love, no because you are in debt and trying to get or stay out.
Now I am sure some LDS person is going to say I am understanding wrong. But I am left with the impression from reading this that tithing is a debt and if you pay it you won’t be in debt or at least getting yourself closer to being out of debt. He says, “it becomes a debt.” That to me sounds like you can stay out of debt but if you don’t pay you are in debt. If I am wrong, than someone please tell me how tithing becomes a debt? What debt are you paying off? And if it is a debt that can’t be paid by tithing than what is the argument for a mandatory 10 percent tithe off income?
I’d like to see more discussion on how money in any way can relate to worthiness.
Oceancoast
I said
“Putting it as simply as I can, it has not existed since Biblical times.”
You said
“Respectfully disagree , you should read your bible. The concept of giving one tenth of increase to the Lord has been stipulated in the Torah and was practiced in Biblical Times.”
What I said above was in response to your claim that tithing has been practised since Biblical times, where did I say it wasn’t practiced in biblical times?
You said
“Now the Early Christian church as documented by ACTS 4 and 5 raised the bar a bit, they demanded a 100% donation of all proceeds to the church and the church leadership would decide on what the members would have.. If they didn’t pay their full 100% donation, they were struck down dead by God.. See Ananias and Sapphira.. Acts 5”
You just told me I should read my bible, I gather from what you have just said that you never read yours. What does Ananias & Sapphira have to do with tithing? The reason they were ‘struck down’ was because they lied to God
You said
“Old Man, I recognize it’s your MO to characterize all the LDS activities of that of a Corporation, doing fundraising, but what do you call it when the Local Evangelical church passes a collection plate around? Fundraising? It’s a FACT of life that organizations NEED funds to operate.. that is true for ALL Churches. How they raise the funds is different depending on organization. The LDS faith uses the concept of “Tithes and offerings”.. it’s totally on an honor system , no audits or proof required, and is done discreetly and privately…”
Again, what does this have to do with tithing? Fund raising is NOT tithing & tithing was NEVER a means of raising money. Why don’t you simply read up & learn what scriptural tithing is before making that kind of comment. I’ve said this several times now, the LDS tithe is NOT a scriptural tithe.
I said
“So it would appear that Mormons & non-Christian groups follow the teachings of 6th Century Catholicism rather than Scripture.”
You said
“Just for kicks. Are you saying the 6th century Catholicism is NOT Christian?. And what so-called “Christian” group do you know operates without some sort of fundraising?”
The only thing I said about the Catholic Church is that they introduced tithing in the 6th Century & that your organization follows what they did. That’s a simple fact, make of it what you will.
Finally you said this to Jaxi
“Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not destroy the fruits of your soil, and your vine in the field shall not fail to bear, says the LORD of hosts. Then all nations will call you blessed, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts.”
I really don’t know why you quote Malachi in your defence of tithing, it’s a common practice among cults & non Christians. Malachi was addressing the Priests of his day because they were not carrying out the requirements of the law. Do you live by the Law or by faith? If you are prepared to use Malachi 3:16 in defence of tithing then you must also be prepared to sacrifice animals, you must be prepared to stone people for adultery, a certain Joseph Smith springs to mind in that context. What I’m trying to tell you is that the Levitical laws do not apply to Christians,
Ps. If you really insist on following Malachi’s teaching then next time your tithing settlement comes around take a truckload of cabbages to your Bishop, after all, that verse does say ”that there may be food in my house”
OC,
I don’t know how many times we have to explain to Mormons that Jesus fulfilled the OT and gave us a New one. We as Christians live by the Son not by the OT and it’s prophets.
I see you skipped grindael’s post on the difference of LDS tithing and Biblical tithes. No surprise there. I will simply suggest you go back and read them, no sense in my posting all that again.
Christians do give money, time, and talents. It is not a requirement for Heaven though. With the LDS, you either pay your entrance fee or you can kiss the CK goodbye. There’s the difference. Our Salvation isn’t determined by how much we give our church. LDS version of tithing really does sound like indulgences.
“How many of the so-called Christians here actually believe the Bible when it says’ this? Seems to me if you have TRUE Faith in God and Christ, you would pay your tithing FIRST and let the Lord Bless you with a blessing so great there will be NO MORE NEED.. But most of our critics that stumble on this concept lack the TRUE Faith to follow Gods commands.”
How do you know what faith a Christian has in their heart? How do you know what Christians give and how and when they give it? How do you know what is in each person’s heart or what that person is going through? Jesus said to be a cheerful giver. How many LDS come out of tithing settlement and complain that they paid so much they could have bought a new car or put a down payment on a house? I have heard that many times over the years. Christians do give money. The difference is, it’s not a set minimum amount. If I can’t put food on the table for my kids one month, I can skip the plate at church or I can give what I can. I don’t get my ticket to Heaven pulled and have to earn it back over 6 months. I’m having financial hardship and cannot afford to feed my kids or give money, I can give in other ways as I mentioned in a previous post. Isn’t that giving? What if I give of my time and talents cheerfully? Doesn’t God accept that as being a cheerful giver?
Jesus came and fulfilled the OT, the veil was torn and along comes Joseph Smith, he put the veil back up and put all who follow him back under the law.
Galatians 2:19-21
19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
You can’t comprehend what it means to live by TRUE faith. You follow the law Joseph Smith set up for you.
Sorry for the error, my reference to malachi in my reply to Ocean should of course have been Malachi 3:10 not 3:16
We do believe the Bible. But we also believe that Christ did away with the LAW OF MOSES. Christians have moved on, but Mormons are still living it, and their own “prophets” claim that they haven’t got FAITH ENOUGH to live the “higher law”. Christians DO live the HIGHER LAW, the law of LOVE where there is no record keeping, FORCED REGULATIONS or a re-enactment of the Law of Moses. And where are all the “blessings” of those Mormons that have paid tithing for years and years but then have to go on welfare? Mormon “prophets” have NO FAITH in their own members. That is why they gave them a FORCED REGULATION that if they don’t obey, bars them from “exaltation”. You can spin it any way you want, but it is what it is. This is exactly what Christ came to destroy, but Mormons ignore the message of Christ and instead give heed to men who impose Pharasical regulations and COMMANDS that are the dead letter of the law.
Education of Children, Tithing
George Q. Cannon
Remarks
By President George Q. Cannon at a General
Priesthood Meeting Held in the Tabernacle,
Salt Lake City, Saturday Evening,
April 5, 1890.
What’s a “so called Christian”.
Is that a denomination? I’m under the impression that a Christian has put their faith solely on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation since that’s what the Bible teaches. The Jesus who is revealed in the Bible is God incarnate not some created being. He’s the everlasting God with no beginning and no end. He is eternal.
There are a lot of cults that I’d deem “so called Christian” because they redefine who Jesus is and what is required for salvation.
These “so called Christians” are following false prophets who proclaim another “so called gospel” based on nothing but their own imaginations.
God doesn’t need our money. Cults need the money. God wants us.
God wants us to take care of our spouses and our kids emotionally and financially. That’s our first mission field. The LDS church keeps their members so busy that the families suffer. The women run here, there and every where to serve the cult. The next place they run is to their doctor to get some mood altering medications to deal with all of the depression caused by never being good enough or doing enough; never measuring up.
One of the first things that former Mormons experience is how much more time and money they have. They then have the option of using that time and money as they see fit not as dictated by some corporate church.
Mormons are fools if they think that their church can declare them “worthy” based on their giving and works of service.
I see in his General conference speech President Monson has asked the members to contribute even more money to help pay for the extra so-called missionaries they’re sending out. I would have thought that with the countless millions rolling into their coffers they would have no need to guilt the members into giving even more of their hard earned cash, especially in the present economic climate.
Old Man
The corporation has to keep hitting the current members up for more and more money because they are losing members at an alarming rate. Their retention of new members is abysmal. If they get new members in third world type countries, they not only face the prospect of marginally committed members but these folks have no cash. In-other-words the corporation is going to go into the red propping up these groups.
Because of the miserable participation rate, the corporation has had to close down certain units and merge them with others.
Let’s face it, Mormonism is a religion with minimal appeal. Groups like the Free Masons have been running into the same problem for years. Mormonism has an initial appeal for an uninformed few because of the programs they promote and the “best face forward” approach to keeping the negative aspects in the closet.
The internet is killing Mormonism and the Salt Lake LDS brand. I’ve found that most Mormons leave not because someone like me “witnesses” to them but rather because they find their way out on their own.
Mormonism is a tough sell up front and an even tougher sale to maintain.
People who become Christians are focused on developing a deeper relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ. That’s not so with Mormonism. It’s all about maintaining loyalty to “the church”. When guilt and fear doesn’t work to keep people from bolting, it’s game over.
Here’s an article examining the closing of Mormon stakes. The corporation is losing customers and it’s effecting the bottom line.
http://www.cumorah.com/index.php?target=view_other_articles&story_id=247&cat_id=30
Falcon,
You said, “I’ve found that most Mormons leave not because someone like me “witnesses” to them but rather because they find their way out on their own.”
I think that’s true. No amount of witnessing would have brought me out. My eyes and ears were shut. I had friends that really really tried too. Now I think to myself, “how obvious.” But thank God for those that do witness. The witnessing is very much needed once they find out.
Old man,
“I see in his General conference speech President Monson has asked the members to contribute even more money to help pay for the extra so-called missionaries they’re sending out.”
Each missionary has to pay so much a month to be on their mission. The last time I heard it was $350 per month, but that’s been years ago. Guess who gets to pay that? Dad and Mom. Kids are encouraged to save all through childhood for their mission too. The church would have to be contributing some because I doubt they could live on $350 per month. Maybe they’ll up the amount each missionary pays.
I have to agree with Viking in his evaluation of Ocean’s statement ( on 4-6) . Now, I personally
have found no stumbling block in tithing ( the correct concept , not the way which Mormon
leaders have messed it up etc ) . Therefore I have to take his statement for what it : emotionally
based antipathy coming from someone who could quite possibly be a so called Mormon .
At any rate all this reminds me that I will be on safe ground to anchor my Christian life in
what the Bible records , especially the New Testament , no need for the “additional truths ”
as offered by the living oracles of Mormonism .
The purpose of tithing in the LDS church is to get a temple recommend to perform rituals that will lead to the Mormon becoming a god.
This is Biblical?
Our Mormon posters want to tell us what the Bible says about tithing and put their unique LDS spin on it. But they really aren’t bottom-lining the purpose behind them kicking in their 10%. Can a Mormon get into the temple without coughing-up the dough? No way!
Mormonism is based on the false premise that the first century Gospel was lost and needed to be restored.
Can anyone show me where it says in the Bible or the writings of the Church Fathers or even the heretics for that matter or in the traditions or history of the church where the notion of becoming a god and paying a 10% fee to do so is clearly articulated? Is it even in the BoM?
It’s just more LDS fiddle faddle and creative nonsense.
There is a real sense of religious pharisee-ism in the LDS church. They’re just holding-up the members to get they’re hands on their cash.
What a bunch of white washed sepulchers.
falcon said:
It’s someone who professes to be Christian but by their actions don’t seem to behave like a Christian.
The Term Christian in its earliest usage referred to those who believed in and followed the teachings of Jesus as the Christ.. It has nothing to do with any specific denomination.
Then what’s going on with Acts 4? I guess by your definition, Christianity is a Cult that needs money.
Oceancoast
Falcon said
“God doesn’t need our money. Cults need the money. God wants us.
You said
“Then what’s going on with Acts 4? I guess by your definition, Christianity is a Cult that needs money.”
I think it’s time you thought a little about the things you say, can’t you see that one of the major differences between Christians & Mormons is one of COMPULSION? Your organization still lives to a large degree by the law & that is reflected in the way you misuse Acts 4 & 5 implying that people were forced to give money. There is no compulsion in Acts but there is money being VOLUNTARILY given & that has nothing whatsoever to do with tithing.
You seem unable to comprehend that there is another way apart from the law, the Christian way, living by Grace through faith in Christ.
Kate said:
Really? Jesus came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. I suppose that one of the heresies of the Apostasy is that many of you think the OT laws were abolished somehow. For it is written:
If the laws haven’t been abolished, then they must still remain. Superseded in some instances by the Higher Law of Christ, for instance the need for ‘Sacrifice’, was replaced by the Ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus.
With Christ , It’s no longer just “Thou shall not commit adultery”.. It’s if you lust after a woman, you have already committed adultery in your heart.
‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Etc.
No surprise since so far all I have seen grindael do post after post is dump large posts of his own eisogesis of scripture that fits his own parochial interest. He speaks of how the “Forced Regulation” was done away with.. This is true..There is no FORCED regulation in the LDS Faith. It’s entirely voluntary.
False. There is NO ‘entrance fee’.. the CK will have many that didn’t pay any tithing. You obviously don’t understand LDS beliefs. If you were formerly LDS, then this speaks volumes on why you left.. You simply don’t understand the doctrine.
This is absolutely true for LDS
Not even remotely the same.
I never claimed to know.. I asked a question to provoke thought amidst the criticism levied here against paying Tithing ‘first’. The point which you seem to obviously missed is that it’s a matter of “FAITH”.
In deed he does..
I’m sure this happens, there are ALL kinds of people of varying levels of faith.
Actually the Higher law of Christ is to give 100% .. so any minimum is rather moot point.
The same is true in the LDS faith, but what your really saying by your actions when you skip the plate at church is that you don’t have faith enough in God to provide for your needs, so you keep it for yourself and put God on hold till later For it’s written:
LDS doesn’t pull any tickets to heaven.
I’m believe he does.
The point Kate, is that the LDS church doesn’t send a “Plate” around at meetings like other churches do to collect offerings. The church has a much more private system.. As for Temple recommends etc.. You are simply asked if YOU consider yourself to be a full tithe payer. The KEY point which the critics here obfuscate is that there is no AUDIT.. It’s totally on your honor on how YOU feel about your giving to the Lord. In Acts 4-5 we see that the early church was practicing the law of consecration, a much higher law than that of tithing as it requires 100% giving.
This includes the story of a couple who sold land and it was asked of them to give 100% (not merely 10%) to the Church. They laid the proceeds at the feet of the apostles and when it was asked of them if it was 100% they lied and they were struck dead that instance.. Now that is a tough tithing settlement.
In the case of Ananias here he didn’t get much of a chance to explain why he didn’t give 100% the proceeds. Maybe he needed to ” put food on the table for the kids “.. His wife at least had a chance to explain.. but she lied and was struck down. I guess they got their ticket to heaven pulled in a big way.
OC,
You said to Kate. “You are simply asked if YOU consider yourself to be a full tithe payer. The KEY point which the critics here obfuscate is that there is no AUDIT.. It’s totally on your honor on how YOU feel about your giving to the Lord.”
And a full LDS tithe payer is supposed to pay 10 percent of all income. If you claim to be a full tithe payer and aren’t giving the 10 percent of all income than you are lying.
You keep dodging the point. How does money determine worthiness?
Shem
“Where have I don’t that?”
With this little declaration “The Corporation money extraction scheme is NOT TITHING.” You have thus tried to claim that our teaching that we are to pay one tenth to the church does not fit the definition of the word tithing. As this is false, your claim is only supported if the definition of tithing is altered.
“The tithe of which we are talking was given exclusively to the Hebrews for a very specific purpose.”
Then why did Abraham pay tithes to Melchizedek? (Hebrews 7: 6; Genesis 14: 20). Abraham was not Hebrew, nor was Melchizedek. Yet Abraham paid tithes to this Priest of the Most High God (Genesis 14: 18) of all the spoils that he had taken in his battle with the kings.
“Who paid tithing? Only landowners paid tithing, are you a landowner?”
Please proved reference, as I can’t find this anywhere in the Bible. Though I do note that the Levites were to tithe the tithe that they received by offering one tenth of it in sacrifice. (Numbers 18: 26; Nehemiah 10: 38).
“What proportion of income was the tithe? It was 10% of any profit.”
Again, reference please, as well as what you would define as a profit.
“Do you pay 10% of your savings or do you pay 10% of your total income?”
I pay tithing on the money which I receive, not the money I already have. That is what income means. All the money that comes into my house is tithed; but once it is there it is not tithed again the next year.
“How was the tithe to be paid? It had to be paid in food not money.”
Because they lived in a primarily agricultural economy that based a significant portion of its trade in bartering there was not a significant population that dealt with money, especially money as we understand it. In those days a gold coin was only worth its weight, and thus a pound of gold was traded for a pound of other raw goods. Now, this is overly simplified, but this is basics of their economy. As such, they paid tithes with those things that they received as income, which would have been animals and grown produce.
“Do you pay in food?”
No. Our economy is based in a system of money were everything is assigned a set value and is paid for with approved currency. There is little bartering involved, and thus most peoples income is no longer measured by how many new animals they have or how productive their crops were. It is instead measured by how much money those things can be sold for. So, today, just as in ancient times, we pay tithes with those things that we receive as income, which is money.
“What was the tithe to be used for? It was to ensure that the Levites, the only tribe without land, could be sustained.”
While it was given to the Levites, it is wrong to say they were without land. They were given two cities within each tribe, and thus had 24 cities that were theirs, and thus owned land.
“Do you have a priestly class to whom you give food?”
The tithe was to support the priests in their duties, thus it was to support the church organization of the time. The tithes we pay go to support the church organization of our time, in the building of new meeting houses and temples, as well as other things.
“Your idea of tithing isn’t even remotely like the Hebrew tithe”
Our system of tithes is different. Our concept and doctrine is exactly the same.
“Please be good enough to show me where I said, “this concept is not in the Bible”
Since you claim that what we teach as tithing is not in the Bible than you are claiming that this concept is not in the Bible. What you are claiming is in the Bible is a very different concept than what we teach, which actually is in the Bible.
Now, just to clarify a few things.
Jaxi
We do not pay tithing on all financial aid. Only on that aid that we are not required to repay to the government. We don’t pay tithing on loans, but we do on grants. This is because the grant represents an income that we are receiving. The source of that income is immaterial.
Kate
A grant given for school is basically the government paying you to get an education. The reason behind it doesn’t really change this fact. Food Stamps are basically the government paying you to take care of your children. The reason behind it again, doesn’t matter. It may be a charitable reason; but then, people have hired others in their companies out of charity. Is this any different?
People are getting hung up on the wrong issues here. Charity is anything done to help others. It that help comes in the form of providing them an income, then that income is to be tithed, regardless of the source or the reason for it.
Jaxi
“You keep dodging the point. How does money determine worthiness?”
No one has dodged the point. It is not money that determines worthiness, it is whether or not you have faith enough to pay it. That is the point. The money is not the issue, which is why it is not church policy to audit your income. We leave that to the government, because for them the money is the issue.
The issue for the church is willingness and faith. A person who is unwilling to pay a full tithe lacks the faith required to be worthy of the temple. It is all a matter of faith.
OLD MAN Said:
No OLD MAN , I don’t see that major difference primarily because there isn’t any “Compulsion”.
NO, I don’t misuse Acts 4&5. It’s a clear example of how early Christians were living a ‘Law of consecration’. Which some early LDS tried to live. In that order it’s expected that the participants give 100% to the church. Participation is voluntary and although not explicitly stated in Acts, you only assume participation was voluntary and that not all Christians were doing this, but it doesn’t say this. There is some “compulsion” apparent in Acts 5.. where Ananias lays the proceeds at the apostles feet. There is an apparent EXPECTATION that 100% proceeds MUST be presented and laid at the apostles feet. Ananias doesn’t even get a chance to explain, he is just accused of lying to God and is struck down. So that to me this is an indication that the demand for 100% was compulsory, for if it was fully voluntary, then why would the act of Ananias holding back some of the proceeds for himself be deemed lying to God? It only makes sense if there is a compulsory expectation that the proceeds presented were 100% of the proceeds received..
I do comprehend.. I’m not sure you do though.. Most often those who make such claims as your doing misunderstand the meaning of ‘Faith in Christ”.. and interpret that to be some kind of “Easy Believism”.. When in reality it’s not so easy. True faith is an active belief. So test yourself on you actual belief in Chist.. How well do you follow his teachings? Do you give ALL you have and follow him, not worrying from day to day how your needs will be provided for? Do you love your enemies? Do you hold anger toward anyone or group .. (I do recall you saying once you “Loath” the LDS Faith).. seems to me that holding on to that kind of emotive antipathy is not Christ like. The list can go on and on.. True faith in Christ would demand following his admonitions fully.. not selectively.
Speaking of the Laws and commandments it’s written that Christ said.. ” Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19
It’s also written that Jesus said.. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”.. so ask yourself, just how much to you love Jesus? such can be measured in part by how well you’re keeping his commands.
Shem,
So there is actually a number on how much faith you have to have to be worthy? You have to have the faith to give up 10 percent of your income, then you are worthy. I’m sorry if I think that’s silly. I can’t believe there is a minimum requirement of faith to be found “worthy.”
Jaxi said..
.
I would agree.. Yet, what constitutes income is quite often different for different people. This is why the Church doesn’t “audit”.. and it’s up to YOU the tithe payer to do your own self evaluation.
If you have any complaints about how the church handles tithing settlements.. Again I refer you to Acts 5.. the tithing (offering) settlement of Ananias and his wife.. (In the expectation is not 10%, but 100% of income) He and his wife lied at their settlement and they were struck dead. Now I don’t know how many LDS are struck dead coming out of tithing settlement.
OC,
I’m pulling an oceancoast on you, I couldn’t get past the first few sentences. I didn’t read your post sorry.
Shem,
“A grant given for school is basically the government paying you to get an education. The reason behind it doesn’t really change this fact. Food Stamps are basically the government paying you to take care of your children. The reason behind it again, doesn’t matter. It may be a charitable reason; but then, people have hired others in their companies out of charity. Is this any different?”
Yes it’s different. You APPLIED for assistance because you needed it, well guess what? There are many, many Americans who NEED it. The LDS church is NOT entitled to ANY of it. If you can afford to give 10% of it to them, why not find a needy family to give that 10% to? Please don’t EVEN tell me that the church does give it to the needy, I know better. Needy people don’t need leaders running around in $1,000 suits, living in million dollar homes who are so caught up in appearances that they take money from tithes to build a shopping mall complete with heated sidewalks and upscale stores that most LDS people can only dream about shopping in!
Government assistance is not charity! It’s a system we taxpayers pay into to feed hungry children and people down on their luck. Nice try, but you are ridiculous.
OC,
I used the statement about 10 percent to show an amount that has to be payed to be determined as “worthy.” I don’t care how you interpret income. All my points are centered around the fact that the LDS uses the giving of money or goods or whatever (and given only to the LDS Church) to determine someone’s “worthiness.” Shem (the only one who answered the point of my response) claimed it is to establish one’s faithfulness. You can read my response to that above. Get off this Acts 5 thing. As I stated above, I don’t have a problem with offerings to a church. My issue is with that this is used to establish “worthiness.”
Jaxi said..
Wow, you seem to really struggle with the concept of “Faith”. Faith can’t be measured quantitatively.
I fail to see where you get that from any of Shem’s comments, unless you just don’t understand the concept of faith and its relationship to ones worthiness.
What’s silly is how your distorting the concept and relationship between “Faith” and “worthiness”
What makes someone worthy in the eyes of God? God cannot tolerate sin in the least degree correct? and yet we are all sinners, so none of us are worthy in the eyes of God, unless the blot of sin is removed..Such is what Christ has done for us, paying the price for our sins, but that gift does have some conditions.. Even ‘Born Again Evangelicals’ and Calvinists assert conditions to receiving the gift.. (makes you wonder why we call it a gift, but that’s a topic for a different discussion) The condition is that you must have faith in Christ, otherwise there would be no point in even believing in Christianity at all.. Live free and die worthy.
This comes down to what constitutes “faith”.. What does it really mean to “Believe in Him”.. Is it just enough to say.. “I believe”, but not actually do anything to demonstrate that belief? Or is faith demonstrated by actions of obedience to the Commands of Christ and his Apostles. Whether they be those of antiquity or those modern. So for LDS, the modern call is to pay 10% of ones increase to the Lord as a tithe. For some this is easy, and probably doesn’t require much faith at all.. Therefore, I don’t know that it does much toward worthiness. Yet for that poor woman that gives the widow’s mite.. that maybe a struggle and require much faith to give.. yes, that adds to her worthiness, because of her faith in Christ.
Kate said..
I understand, my first few sentences was primarily a quotation from Christ so I understand how you couldn’t get past the Saviors words and disregarded the rest of the post.
No OC, the first few sentences were all you, are you claiming to be Christ now? You see, I have a hard time conversing with you because you have shown over and over that you have no clue what you are talking about. Here’s just one example:
Sharon
“For clarification and accuracy, the current number of Mormon Church members is listed at lds.org as 14,441,346.”
Oceancoast
“For clarification.. That’s NOT the current membership.. That was the membership reported in 2011.. It’s now 2013.. And I believe the current estimate is about 16 Million.”
You believe whatever you want, it doesn’t matter what evidence is in front of you, I don’t even think it matters what your church leaders say, I’ve seen a few LDS on here over the years that are this same way. I’m glad there are people like grindael, falcon, Rick and Mike who go over and over this information for all the lurkers and even us Christians who post here. I don’t have the patience for certain LDS types.
It’s also written that Jesus said.. “If you love me, you will keep my commandments”.. so ask yourself, just how much to you love Jesus? such can be measured in part by how well you’re keeping his commands.
Matthew 22: 36-40
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Which covers everything about the ten commandments and basic human decency. It doesn’t cover mandatory tithing.
I also don’t appreciate the insinuation that the Mormon church is better because they don’t “pass around an offering plate”. My church doesn’t pass around any plates. We are asked to give what we feel called to give. My giving does not only go to my church, but it also goes to various other charities, etc, that I support and feel called to do so with. If I were a Mormon, I wouldn’t be able to include my charitable donations in my tithing.
On Mormon.org it reads, quoting the former President Hinckley: Our major source of revenue is the ancient law of the tithe. Our people are expected to pay 10 percent of their income to move forward the work of the Church. (emphasis mine)
Oceancoast
Faith can’t be measured quantitatively.
One person can have more faith than another.
For some this is easy, and probably doesn’t require much faith at all.. Therefore, I don’t know that it does much toward worthiness. Yet for that poor woman that gives the widow’s mite.. that maybe a struggle and require much faith to give..
Isn’t that statement quantifying faith. “doesn’t require much faith” and “require much faith” What is the difference between not much and much faith? Isn’t that a measurement?
Aren’t LDS that go to the temple called “worthy temple recommend holders?” Wouldn’t the temple questions be a minimum requirement of faith. And so they are a minimum requirement of “worthiness?”
yes, that adds to her worthiness, because of her faith in Christ.
Does this mean the more good works one does, the more faith they have, the more faith the more sins are forgiven, the more sins that are forgiven the more worthy? How much faith/good works is required to make one worthy enough for God?
Oceancoast
Why is it that Mormons can never give a simple answer to a simple question or a simple response to a simple remark?
You said this in response to my remark about compulsion
“No OLD MAN , I don’t see that major difference primarily because there isn’t any “Compulsion”.
You then repeat what I said thus
“Your organization still lives to a large degree by the law & that is reflected in the way you misuse Acts 4 & 5 implying that people were forced to give money. There is no compulsion in Acts but there is money being VOLUNTARILY given & that has nothing whatsoever to do with tithing.”
And what is your response to that, merely that you didn’t misuse Acts 4 & 5. & it’s a clear example of the law of consecration, whatever that might be. Can you show me this ‘law of consecration’ in the Bible? Of course you can’t, it was an invention of Joseph Smith. If you cannot make your point by using Scripture but instead turn to the man made doctrines & ordinances of the LDS then you have nothing of value to say. The fact that you mention a law at all means you believe it is something that has to be done, i.e. it is compulsory. Giving money to a church is not a law & it is not a requirement. You not only cherry pick from Scripture you cherry pick as regards the things you reply to, why not respond to the fact that “your organization still lives to a large degree by the law”? Could it be that you have no adequate answer to that?
You then go on to say that there is some compulsion in Acts; that’s what you choose to read into it not what is said or even implied.
“Ananias doesn’t even get a chance to explain, he is just accused of lying to God and is struck down.”
Peter did NOT accuse Anannias, he TOLD him he was lying. You’re the ones who are constantly telling us that the Holy Spirit tells you this or tells you that but when the Holy Spirit tells Peter that Anannias lied you can’t accept it, how else could Peter have known?
“So that to me this is an indication that the demand for 100% was compulsory, for if it was fully voluntary, then why would the act of Ananias holding back some of the proceeds for himself be deemed lying to God? It only makes sense if there is a compulsory expectation that the proceeds presented were 100% of the proceeds received.”
You’re reading your own confirmation bias into the passage, the meaning is obvious when taken in context with the preceding verses Acts 4:34-37 anyone but a Mormon would see that. Perhaps you should practice reading Scripture in context before you make that kind of statement.
“Most often those who make such claims as your doing misunderstand the meaning of ‘Faith in Christ”.. and interpret that to be some kind of “Easy Believism”.. When in reality it’s not so easy. True faith is an active belief. So test yourself on you actual belief in Chist.. How well do you follow his teachings? Do you give ALL you have and follow him, not worrying from day to day how your needs will be provided for? Do you love your enemies? Do you hold anger toward anyone or group .. (I do recall you saying once you “Loath” the LDS Faith).. seems to me that holding on to that kind of emotive antipathy is not Christ like. The list can go on and on.. True faith in Christ would demand following his admonitions fully.. not selectively.”
Don’t lecture me on the meaning of faith in Christ, do you tell your Grandmother how to suck eggs? You think I’m some kind of easy believer? Let me tell you my friend that I have probably had more grief & heartache in my years on this Earth than you can imagine, including the deaths of two of my children so don’t talk to me about ‘easy believers’
Do I give all I have? No I don’t, do you? But all I have is available to God.
Do I worry from day to day how my needs will be provided for? No I don’t, my needs are few & I have all I need.
Do I love my enemies? Yes I do & I would very much like to hold my hands out to you in friendship & brotherly love but unless you come to know Christ as He really is I’m afraid it won’t happen.
Do I hold anger towards a group, yes I do, and you know that because you’ve just told me that I loathe the LDS. You are right. I do loathe that organization in the same way that I loathe all false religions & false prophets that are opposed to the truth, BUT, I love Mormons in the same way I love all men. Mormons are as much in need of Christ as anyone else. Now let me ask you a question in the same vein; did Christ ever show anger towards a group?
When you ask me if I follow Christ’s admonitions selectively do you mean in the same sense that you follow Old Testament laws selectively?
Kate said..
Not at all, and I must admit you didn’t specify which Post you were talking about and I assume it was the one addressed to YOU. I opened with pointing you to the words of Christ regarding your claim that the OT law and prophets were abolished.
Do you deny these are the words of Christ?
Well here you demonstrate that very thing.. You don’t know what YOU are talking about.. It’s as if you and your LDS antagonists don’t know how to read. To help you with comprehension I’ll put some emphasis on key words..
Now you show me the error in my post? There is none.. The membership number Sharon cited was stale.. nearly two years stale. The membership in 2011 is NOT the current membership in 2013. Is that such a difficult concept to understand? I also qualified my 16 Million comment as an “Estimate” that I believe.. The church just announced a membership number for the end of 2012, which is less than I expected. So my ESTIMATE of 16 million was high by approx 6%. Nevertheless, that difference didn’t change the context of how I used the figure in the first place, so as common with antagonists here, it was much to do about nothing.
You bet, I will believe whatever I want, that’s my prerogative. And so will you I presume.
What evidence? the problem I have with many of the so-Christians here that are antagonistic of the LDS faith is there really isn’t much evidence that they actually present isn’t hearsay or out of context citations.
Oh but we do think it matters, the difference is we as believers don’t define our faith based upon a ‘few’ out of context citations.. But instead we accept that leader of past and present aren’t perfect in EVERYTHING they say.. therefore there is room for some percentage of errant human speculative ideas that don’t define our faith. Our critics on the other hand demonstrate that they are contrary to the admonitions of Paul, lovers of contention an thrive on exploiting select quotations and opinions as if that is what defines our faith.. which it doesn’t.. Wouldn’t it be best leave the interpretation of our leaders of the past to those of us who actually believe in the faith.
Is it just enough to say.. “I believe”?
No OC. You have to also believe.
Shem
Although you don’t say I must assume you were addressing me in your last post. Debating something with you reminds me of when Christ criticised the Pharisees, just as they followed every minor detail of the law & ignored the things that mattered so also do you. You constantly look for something minor to criticise while you ignore the major criticisms levelled against your organization.
You said
“Then why did Abraham pay tithes to Melchizedek? (Hebrews 7: 6; Genesis 14: 20). Abraham was not Hebrew, nor was Melchizedek. Yet Abraham paid tithes to this Priest of the Most High God (Genesis 14: 18) of all the spoils that he had taken in his battle with the kings.”
You quote from the KJV version. If you care to read more up to date & accurate translations you will see that the word ‘tithe’ is replaced by ‘one tenth’ & does not appear in those verses.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God instructed Abraham to give any tithe.
Nowhere in scripture does it teach that Abraham ever gave another tithe.
What Abraham gave was on the spoils of the battle not on his personal possessions or the increase of his flocks and herds & therefore cannot be called a tithe.
Abraham didn’t give a tithe of something that he was going to keep a portion of; he gave everything so again it cannot be called a tithe.
Let’s read something from another site, I’m using this quote because your organization claims tithing to be an ‘eternal principle’ I wont give the link because as someone else, I believe it was Grindael, said, you wont bother to check it out.
“Why did Abraham give Melchizedek a tithe? Some say he was following an eternal principle. That couldn’t be true because God himself gave specific instructions that were different in Numbers 31. It was another situation involving the spoils of battle. The high priest got one five-hundredth of half the spoils (one tenth of 1 percent of the total) and the Levites got one fiftieth of half the spoils (1 percent of the total)….”
“Many people have the mistaken idea that 10 percent is a sacred standard in God’s kingdom when it comes to giving. They think it was an unspoken commandment or principle that didn’t get recorded until the Law was given. But that conclusion is wrong. The Bible itself clearly contradicts it. If Abraham had been following a universal principle when he gave a tenth of the spoils to Melchizedek, then God would have told the people in Numbers 31 to do the same thing. But he specifically gave them different instructions—proof that Abraham wasn’t following an eternal law and his tithe isn’t a pattern to be followed today.
There was no commandment before the Law that man should tithe. There is no scriptural basis to say that tithing was an unspoken commandment or a universal principle of worship. There is no scriptural proof that any other worshipper of the true God ever gave anyone a tithe during that time, including Jacob. There is no scriptural basis to say that God wanted a tithe from anyone during that time. Those are the facts. Anything else is speculation.”
I said
“Who paid tithing? Only landowners paid tithing, are you a landowner?”
You said
“Please proved reference, as I can’t find this anywhere in the Bible.”
The reason you can’t find it is because you have never understood scriptural tithing, you have simply followed what you have been told by your leaders. There is no specific verse saying that only landowners are to tithe, that fact becomes obvious only when the Law of Tithing is understood, I’m not going to explain it all for you, read the passages where the Law of Tithing is described & perhaps you will come to understand why only landowners tithed
“What proportion of income was the tithe? It was 10% of any profit.”
Again, reference please, as well as what you would define as a profit.
Scripture says that the tithe was to be paid on ‘increase’. An increase can only mean a profit, in other words if a flock of 50 sheep increased by 10 animals that was a ‘profit’ & the owner would tithe 10% of that.
If tithing meant farmers had to give 10% of a flock that never increased, in other words, if they never made a profit, then eventually they would have nothing left to give! Is that so difficult to understand?
“What was the tithe to be used for? It was to ensure that the Levites, the only tribe without land, could be sustained.”
“While it was given to the Levites, it is wrong to say they were without land. They were given two cities within each tribe, and thus had 24 cities that were theirs, and thus owned land.”
As I said at the start of this post, you query me on minor things but ignore the major points. The Levites were not given land by God, read Numbers 18:20 “The LORD said to Aaron, “You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.”
The Levites were given those ‘cities’ by the other tribes to enable them to carry out their priestly duties among them. They were not landowners in the context of tithing i.e. they were not farmers & the land they had was not for the raising of animals or crops.
“Our system of tithes is different. Our concept and doctrine is exactly the same.”
Your tithe is concerned with the raising of money to use in whatever way your leaders should determine be it shopping malls or the upkeep of buildings. It bears no relation whatsoever to the tithe commanded by God & to claim that LDS doctrine is the same in concept as the biblical tithe is totally false.
OC,
You tell me that faith can’t be measured quantitatively and then you go on to give examples of people with different amounts of faith.
<"For some this is easy, and probably doesn’t require much faith at all.. Therefore, I don’t know that it does much toward worthiness. Yet for that poor woman that gives the widow’s mite.. that maybe a struggle and require much faith to give.. yes, that adds to her worthiness, because of her faith in Christ."
The faith to give 10 percent of ones income isn't the same from person to person. 10 percent of a millionaires income is different from 10 percent of ones income that only makes 10,ooo a year. So if LDS tithing is measuring faith, it is not measuring faith equally. As was pointed out earlier, LDS that can answer all the temple recommend questions correctly get to be called "temple worthy."
You mention "adds to her worthiness." You talk of good works showing faith and that making someone more worthy. How much do you have to do to demonstrate that you are worthy to be with God? And if there is not ever enough you can do to be completely worthy to be with God on your own merit, than why are there qualifiers, for "worthy" or "not worthy." No one is ever worthy, so whether some one is more or less worthy has no bearing at all, because almost worthy doesn't equal life with God. For only the people deemed worthy by an LDS Bishop get to make the covenants that you believe bring one life with God. And the qualifiers aren't even how much do you give to your fellow man, they are how much do you give to an already extremely wealthy organization. Im not sure this is really about faith, as Shem is saying. I think this is more about obedience. Because if I gave 100 percent of my money to LDS fast offering, I would still be unworthy in LDS eyes. This isn't about giving, or faith, its about obeying and sustaining your leaders.
Kate said..
Not at all, and I must admit you didn’t specify which Post you were talking about and I assume it was the one addressed to YOU. I opened with pointing you to the words of Christ regarding your claim that the OT law and prophets were abolished.
Do you deny these are the words of Christ?
Well here you demonstrate that very thing.. You don’t know what YOU are talking about.. It’s as if you and your LDS antagonists don’t know how to read. To help you with comprehension I’ll put some emphasis on key words..
Now you show me the error in my post? There is none.. The membership number Sharon cited was stale.. nearly two years stale. The membership in 2011 is NOT the current membership in 2013. Is that such a difficult concept to understand? I also qualified my 16 Million comment as an “Estimate” that I believe.. The church just announced a membership number for the end of 2012, which is less than I expected. So my ESTIMATE of 16 million was high by approx 6%. Nevertheless, that difference didn’t change the context of how I used the figure in the first place, so as common with antagonists here, it was much to do about nothing.
You bet, I will believe whatever I want, that’s my prerogative. And so will you I presume.
What evidence? the problem I have with many of the so-Christians here that are antagonistic of the LDS faith is there really isn’t much evidence that they actually present isn’t hearsay or out of context citations.
Oh but we do think it matters, the difference is we as believers don’t define our faith based upon a ‘few’ out of context citations.. But instead we accept that leader of past and present aren’t perfect in EVERYTHING they say.. therefore there is room for some percentage of errant human speculative ideas that don’t define our faith. Our critics on the other hand demonstrate that they are contrary to the admonitions of Paul, lovers of contention an thrive on exploiting select quotations and opinions as if that is what defines our faith.. which it doesn’t.. Wouldn’t it be best leave the interpretation of our leaders of the past to those of us who actually believe in the faith.
Kate
“You APPLIED for assistance because you needed it”
And I applied for a Job because I needed it. I applied to get hired because I need the money. I may even take a second job because I need the money. The basic concept of income is still the same regardless of where that income comes from.
I refer you back to the fact that in applying for food stamps you have to list all School grants as income. It doesn’t matter if that grant came from the Federal Government, the State Government, or is a scholarship granted to you by a charitable organization. It is still counted as income for applying for food stamps. A person can found a charitable organization, collect donation from the community, and then give a starving family a scholarship of 50,000 dollars for their son to go to college, and that is still counted as income.
It is the same with Tithing.
3GMarine
“Does this mean the more good works one does, the more faith they have, the more faith the more sins are forgiven, the more sins that are forgiven the more worthy? How much faith/good works is required to make one worthy enough for God?”
Not exactly. The faith generally prompts the good works, which in turn strengthen the faith. This does not lead to more sins being forgiven. Either your sins are forgiven or they aren’t. But it does lead to stronger faith; even eventually faith that cannot be shaken, that is strong enough to move mountains. How much faith is required to be worthy enough for God is simply faith that is strong enough to want to obey.
Speaking of quantifying faith, I think we should clarify. Faith itself is not what is quantified. It is the strength of that faith that is, in a sense, measured. Abraham’s faith was strong enough that he did not withhold his son Isaac when commanded to sacrifice him. I honestly don’t know if my faith is that strong, as I have not yet been tested to that degree. However, I have the same faith as Abraham, even though mine might be a little weaker than his right now.
Jaxi
“How much do you have to do to demonstrate that you are worthy to be with God?”
All you can, and then he does the rest. There has never been a minimum requirement other than this. As long as you are giving your best honest effort, that is enough. For some that will be more in quantity than others, but that doesn’t matter, as long as you are doing what you can.
The Law of Tithing is actually perfectly fair to all concerned. Yes, it may be a little more of struggle financially for those with less, but it is not necessarily any easier spiritually for those millionaires you mention. They have their trials as well, and many of the wealthy find paying tithing harder than the poor do.
Old Man
It was to you. Sorry, I typed my name instead of yours.
I do not focus on insignificant details, so please stop trying to say that I do.
Speaking of translations of the Bible, you can complain all you want, but “One Tenth” is properly translated as tithe. Later on in Genesis we read of Jacob’s covenant to give God one tenth of all that was given (I won’t provide the reference, since I don’t you will look it up anyway). I believe this was a tithe, and it wasn’t translated using this word.
Now, you are right, that basing all our faith solely on the Bible it is not possible to definitively conclude that the law of tithing was had before the time of ancient Israel. However, it is also not possible to conclude definitively that it was not. Your basic argument is simply that because it was not recorded before the time of Moses then it just did not exist. This is a faulty argument. Abraham paid one tenth to the Priest of the Mose High, and Jacob covenanted to pay one tenth of all that he gained to the Lord. You can interpret these scriptures however you want; but you can’t tell me that another interpretation is wrong simply because you don’t agree with it.
“There is no specific verse saying that only landowners are to tithe, that fact becomes obvious only when the Law of Tithing is understood”
I have read the passages that outline the law of tithing, and it does not mandate only landowners. Consider the man who own a flock of sheep, but rents his neighbors fields to pasture them in. He owns no land, but still pays tithes on his flock.
Now, if you are going to argue that only those who generate income pay tithing I have no argument. A man who owned a large field paid tithing on his crop, but his servants did not, as they had no actual income of their own.
“They were not landowners in the context of tithing i.e. they were not farmers & the land they had was not for the raising of animals or crops”
I am well acquainted with Numbers 18. Maybe you should read Joshua 21: 2-3
“And they spake unto them at Shiloh in the land of Canaan, saying, The Lord commanded by the hand of Moses to give us cities to dwell in, with the suburbs thereof for our cattle.
And the children of Israel gave unto the Levites out of their inheritance, at the commandment of the Lord, these cities and their suburbs.”
They were given the cities as well as the land around the cities, which would have included the farm and grazing land. Yes, the Levites had land, and had crops and herds, as the Lord Commanded Moses. What they didn’t have was an inheritance of State, as the other tribes did.
“Your tithe is concerned with the raising of money to use in whatever way your leaders should determine”
True. And what they determine is through the inspiration of God as He directs the disposition of the funds given by His saints for the building up and directing of His church. Just as Israel gave tithes so that the Levites could fulfill their duties in building up and directing the religious life of Israel in their day.
3GMarine said:
It’s relative, not quantitative.
Nope.
One point I should make here.. It’s with regard to the term “Worthy”.. Which is bantered around by people here without fully understanding what is meant by the term.
“Worthy” by definition (Websters) is synonymous with being “meritorious” of something.. Now being “worthy ” i.e. merit entry into the Temple is NOT the same thing as being “Worthy’ in the eyes of God to merit entrance into his presence in the Celestial Kingdom.. Only God can determine the worthiness of the individual with respect to entrance into his Kingdom.
On the other hand, like all Church buildings of any faith, the Temple is owned and operated by the LDS Church and thus the LDS Church sets the standards by which one merits entry into that building.. It’s the right and prerogative of the LDS Church to govern the access to the temple. Every Church does the same with respect to their buildings etc.. St. Peters Basilica for instance, you have to dress in a manner that conforms to the Catholic Churches standard to merit entry.
So the LDS sets a standard where by one must conform too to merit entry into the Temple. This is what is meant by being Temple worthy. The Standard is largely predicated upon one’s SELF evaluation of lifestyle. Being honest, chaste, etc. One of those questions is do you pay an honest tithe?.. How you answer the question is up to you.
The Temple interview questions are merely designed to filter and qualify those desiring to enter the temple if they are living the standards the church sets forth for the Temple. Passing the interview process is all that is required to Merit (i.e. be worthy) to enter the temple and since such a process is predicated on one’s self evaluation, it has little to do with one’s ACTUAL worthiness in the eyes of God. There is for sure many who pass the Temple interview and gain access to the Temple under false pretense. They lie there way through the Temple interview process and merit entry.
I’m sure there will be many Temple goers who won’t be deemed worthy by God enter the celestial Kingdom and consequently there will be many Non-Temple goers, even Non-LDS that will be deemed worthy by God to enter the Celestial Kingdom.. LDS Scriptures explicitly states this.
Nope.
Only God would know.
OC,
<"On the other hand, like all Church buildings of any faith, the Temple is owned and operated by the LDS Church and thus the LDS Church sets the standards by which one merits entry into that building.. It’s the right and prerogative of the LDS Church to govern the access to the temple. Every Church does the same with respect to their buildings etc.. St. Peters Basilica for instance, you have to dress in a manner that conforms to the Catholic Churches standard to merit entry."
This is not about entrance into a building. In LDS thought, the LDS temple holds the saving ordinances that allow people to have life with God. So if you can't enter the building, by LDS standards, you can't have life with God.
<"there will be many Non-Temple goers, even Non-LDS that will be deemed worthy by God to enter the Celestial Kingdom.. LDS Scriptures explicitly states this."
Wow, that's the first time I heard that from an LDS person. You mean that you don't need the LDS saving ordinances to go the Clestial Kingdom? Or are you going to start talking about baptisms for the dead? I guess one can just be unworthy of the temple their whole life, never go, and get their work done for them, and they will be in the Celestial Kingdom? Why bother converting anyone if they can be with God without the uniqueness of Mormonism?
Jaxi said:
As I replied to 3G.. it’s not quantitative it’s relative. Let me ask you .. How EXACTLY fast are you moving right now? You know you are actually moving even if your just sitting and you won’t be able to answer that question with any quantitative exactness..because the Earth is moving, and the Sun is moving and the Galaxy is moving etc. etc.. How fast are you moving? Impossible to quantify, but you can give answers based upon relativity.. How fast you appear to be moving in relationship to something else.
Tithing is NOT measuring faith.. I’m lost at where you get that idea. I answered the “Worthy” term dilemma in my post to 3G.
Only God knows.. Christ did say we should be “Perfect”.. but that’s impossibility.. God judges by the heart.. and according to works.. The two go together.. I presume “how much” is different for every individual. It all has to do with enduring to the end in “Faith”.. For some life is short, and if they lived faithful in that short time, I guess less was required of them than the individual who has a long life..
Again, look at my post to 3G.. being temple worthy simply mean you passed the interview process that “merit” entrance into the Temple.. It has little to do with your “worthiness” before God.
Faith and obedience are connected. If you have TRUE Faith in Jesus Christ would you not obey anything he asked of you? In the case of Acts 4-5, where it speaks of all the saints held everything in common, there is an implied presumption from the text that giving of 100% was expected.. So when Ananias didn’t place 100% at the feet of the apostles, he was struck down. why? Was it lack of faith? Disobedience? Lying? He only lied if there was a presumption of demand to lay 100% before the apostles and he didn’t .
So yes, sometimes obeying the leadership is hard, modern or ancient.. and that’s where faith comes in to play.
OC,
Your whole quantity and relative thing is silly. I am talking about amounts, just because I can’t put a number on it doesn’t make my argument less valid. One has to have a certain amount of faith to do this or that. You said your self, one thing might require not much faith and another might require more.
<"Only God knows.. Christ did say we should be “Perfect”.. but that’s impossibility.. God judges by the heart.. and according to works.. The two go together.. I presume “how much” is different for every individual. It all has to do with enduring to the end in “Faith”.. For some life is short, and if they lived faithful in that short time, I guess less was required of them than the individual who has a long life.."
I agree with all this. You are not teaching me anything. I am talking about measuring ones ability to make covenants with God, which the LDS Church does.
<"Tithing is NOT measuring faith.. I’m lost at where you get that idea."
I got the idea from Shem equating tithing with faith.
<"Faith and obedience are connected. If you have TRUE Faith in Jesus Christ would you not obey anything he asked of you."
Do you obey everything He asks of you? we are all fallen. So I guess no one has TRUE faith by your definition.
Jaxi said:
I’m sorry you find it silly, but you and some of your friends are the ones asking for a quantification on a subjective tenant. That I express a relative notion that one might not require as much faith as another.. Is a relative expression. Only God and the individual knows the true intent or measure of faith that exists with that individual in any given circumstance.
LDS Church does no such thing.
Did he equivocate “tithing” to faith or the act of paying tithing under difficult circumstances to faith? The two are not the same.
Well, it’s written that Jesus said.. if you had the faith the size of a mustard seed you could say to the mountain to move and it would move. What does that say for all of us that haven’t moved a mountain by mere expression… do we all lack “faith”?
That we are fallen and fail to obey at times does not mean we don’t have faith.. This is what repentance is for, and what the atonement of Christ does for us.. That one might strive to obey every thing He ask to the very best of their ability is a manifestation of the faith within. This I believe is all that we are asked. It’s a foregone conclusion that we aren’t perfect and will fail, but as long as we truly do the best we can with our hearts and minds in the right place.. That’s all that is required. God knows the heart, and knows intimately what our intent and desires are. As my mama told me..” Do your best, because your best is good enough, but good enough is not your best.”