(HT: Kyle)
This kind of talk doesn’t sound like the gospel. (And to top that off, it sounds creepy!)
I simply cannot imagine that a man truly heart-broken by his own sin, truly heart-broken by the unbelievable grace of Jesus, truly liberated by free forgiveness, truly melted by God’s astounding patience through over-and-over again sinful habits, truly indebted in love to neighbors and spouse and family, confessing sins daily, celebrating grace and pursing a life that honors Jesus out of joy… I cannot imagine such a man speaking like this. To me it is inconceivable.
I am too much of a piping hot mess of a sinner to be a Mormon. I need a Physician whose scalpel goes much deeper, whose forgiveness is given much more freely. I need the kind of grace that offends people. I need grace that is even more unbelievable and shocking than my sin:
“Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered! Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin!” (Romans 4:4-8)
Adding this one in response to Kate’s comment:
Is it just me or does anyone else here believe that Jesus paid the price for all?
Ponder this hymn written by Elvina Hall in 1865 just after the Civil War had ended:
I hear the Savior say,
“Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in me thine all in all.”
For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim,
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calvary’s Lamb.
And now complete in Him
My robe His righteousness,
Close sheltered ‘neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy power and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
And when before Thy throne
I stand in Him complete,
“Jesus died my soul to save,”
My lips shall still repeat.
Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
You’re not alone Kate & I’m sure the next few hours will prove it.
I’m afraid I have to keep this short but to my mind there was one sentence more than any other that summed up the Mormon attitude to Salvation.
“His mercy does not overcome the requirements of His Law, they must be met”
I’m not aware that Christ required any ‘laws’ to be met. By His blood shed on the cross He fulfilled the requirements of the law for all of us. Does that man have any knowledge of the Christian Gospel? Rarely have I heard such sanctimonious drivel. I don’t think I’m far wrong in saying that his fake humility may fool those who hang on every word uttered by LDS leaders but no matter how hard he tries he completely fails to disguise his arrogance.
Im not trying to side with everything the lds church says but I also dont agree with mainstream christianity either. Jesus himself said that he didnt come to do away with the law but to fulfill it, which means it wasnt complete. It also says that until heaven and earth pass away nothing will be removed from the law. Matt. 5:17-18. The earth is still here. There are tons of scripture that support this but I dont have time to post them all.
cattyjane, think about it this way:
Are you forgiven in order to become obedient, or are you obedient in order to become forgiven?
In the end, only those justified by faith apart from works of the law truly become doers of the heart of the law.
I hope this helps.
Grace and peace in Jesus, who justifies the ungodly like me (Romans 4:4-8),
Aaron
Catty, what also does it mean to fulfill something?
First off, I will state that Christ pays the debt to justice 100%. He does not merely make up some difference between what I can do and what the law dictates. He pays all the debt. The mercy of Christ is overwhelming and astonishing. But that does not mean He makes no requirements of me to qualify for His mercy. My works produce no real qualitative or quantitative contribution to the cost of my salvation. But that does not mean that I don’t have to work to be saved. It is not my work that saves me, but my works are required of the Lord.
This talk from Richard G. Scott is entitled “First Things First.” And employs the concept of the Law of the Harvest, something alluded to by Christ many, many times throughout His ministry. Elder Scott is talking about our choices and how we use our time in prioritizing our lives. I agree completely with Elder Scott. Christ prayed to the Father that things would be “on earth as in Heaven.” He very much preached a practical gospel that would change people here and now, not just after this life. And that change is not manifested only in words out of the mouth, but in action, deeds, and service.
Consider the greatest sermon ever given- the Sermon on the Mount. Christ taught us to be meek, to thirst after righteousness, to pray not to be heard by others, so give alms not to be respected by others, to turn the cheek, to walk with him that asks, to give to him that would borrow, to forgive our neighbor, to be more righteous than the pharisees, to not be angry with a brother, to not lust, to love our enemies, to judge not, and to be perfect.
At the end of the sermon, Jesus said, “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand.” Matt 7:24-26
And in Matthew 24, Jesus states, “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.”
Christ’s mercy is infinite and without it we are doomed forever. But He expects us to engage ourselves in following Him. And that entails “crossing ourselves daily” not just in words and feelings, but in action. Without our effort, He cannot change us.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods
FoF, I’ll see your hand and raise you another Richard G. Scott quote:
How beautiful is the true gospel? I didn’t realize how spiritually dead I was as LDS. Always trying to overcome my weaknesses on my own. Never being good enough, always comparing myself to other women that I felt was more righteous than me, closer to God than me, always worrying what if I never make it to the Celestial kingdom, I would tell myself the Terrestial kingdom will be nice too. How silly all that sounds to me now, how badly I feel for my Mormon family and friends who are still spiritually dead and living this. Unfortunately they will take this apostle’s words to heart and try all that much harder to “get what they pay for.” What freedom there is in Jesus, the truth really does set us free!
Old man,
“His mercy does not overcome the requirements of His Law, they must be met”
I was really put off by this statement. I wish Mormons would take a hard look at what statements like this say about our Savior. Their leaders have reduced Jesus to nothing but a little janitor that comes out of the closet to clean up the last bits that they left behind. Shawn McCraney says something similar to this and it is so true.
Aaron,
Thanks for posting the video version of the hymn I posted, love it!
cattyjane
Christ has set us free from the Law. We do not live by the Law we live by Grace. In the passage you refer to Christ is making a reference to the moral law not the Jewish ceremonial law or the Jewish civil law. God established the moral law & it will never be abolished. However, & it is very important that you remember this, Christians DO NOT LIVE BY THE LAW but, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Read Hebrews 8:10
That catty is probably the greatest differences between Christians & Mormons. Christians live by Grace, they know & follow the moral law by the indwelling of the Spirit, the law is written on their hearts.
Mormons however live by the Law, not just the moral law but every other law that has been dreamed up by Joseph Smith & his successors, I’m sure you know the saying, ‘pay pray & obey’.
I think it might help you understand if you read this extract from a sermon by Charles Spurgeon, a true man of God.
“When the Holy Spirit comes to us, he shows us what the law really is. Take, for instance, the command, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” “Well!” says one, “I have not broken that commandment.” “Stay,” says the Spirit of God, “till you know the spiritual meaning of that command, for whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” There is, also, the command, “Thou shalt not kill.” “Oh!” says the man, “I never killed anybody, I have not committed murder.” “But,” says the Spirit of God, “whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer.” When the Lord thus writes his law upon our heart, he makes us to know the far-reaching power and scope of the commandment. He causes us to understand that it touches not only actions and words, but thoughts, ay, and the most transient imaginations, the things that are scarcely born within us, the sights that pass in a moment across the mind, like a stray passenger who passes in front of the camera when a photographer is taking a view. The Spirit of God teaches us that even these momentary impressions are sinful, and that the very thought of foolishness is sin.
Did you, dear friend, ever have truth truly written on your heart? If so, I will tell you how you felt; you abhorred yourself, and you said, “Who can stand before this terrible law? Who can ever hope to keep these commandments?” You looked to the flames that Moses saw on Sinai and you shrank and trembled almost unto despair, and you entreated that these terrible words should not be spoken to you any more. Yet was it good for you thus to be made to know the law,—not in the letter of it only, but in its cutting crushing, killing spirit for it worketh death to self-righteousness and death to all carnal boastings. When the law comes, sin revives, and we die; that is all that can come of it by itself. Yet is it necessary that there should be such a death as that, and that there should be such a revival of sin that we may know the truth about it, and under the force of that truth may be driven to the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” So, then, writing the law in our heart means, first, making us know what the law really is………
…….. A man with whom God the Holy Spirit deals is one who does not have to go to the 20th of Exodus to know what the law is; He has the law of his God written upon his heart, so that, almost as soon as he looks at a thing, he begins to perceive whether there is evil in it or whether it is good. There is a sort of sensitiveness in his soul which makes him discern between good and evil. When God the Holy Spirit is dealing with him, there is a true, enlightened conscience within him, so that he no longer puts bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter, or darkness for light and light for darkness; but something within him tells him, “This is right,” or, “That is wrong.” It is a most blessed thing when this is the case, and it is always the work of the Spirit of God.”
Here’s a link to that sermon should you wish to read it in full
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2506.htm
FOF,
I have broken down the first part of your post. Look at it closely, you say one thing then disqualify it by the next thing you say. You know, Dr. Phil says when you say something and then follow with the word “but”, you negate everything that comes before that word “but.”
“First off, I will state that Christ pays the debt to justice 100%. He does not merely make up some difference between what I can do and what the law dictates. He pays all the debt. The mercy of Christ is overwhelming and astonishing.”
“But that does not mean He makes no requirements of me to qualify for His mercy.”
“My works produce no real qualitative or quantitative contribution to the cost of my salvation.”
“But that does not mean that I don’t have to work to be saved.”
“It is not my work that saves me,
“but my works are required of the Lord.”
You see how inane this is? Having been LDS I know which part of these comments at truly believed and practiced in Mormonism.
Aaron and Kate,
I will admit that the word “law” can be used in various ways. And it is not too often that the word is used in these conversations precisely and appropriately. And there certainly can be confusion when people, including LDS, use it without explicitly describing which application of the word is intended.
There is the general “law of God,” which could be equated with the eternal law justice. There is the Law of Moses, which was fulfilled by Christ. And then there is the the requirements which Christ has established upon which we may obtain mercy. I believe Elder Scott is referring to this set of requirements as “law” when he states, “His mercy does not overcome the requirements of His Law, they must be met.” He is certainly not suggesting that we must live up to the eternal law of justice, the Lawthe universe or the abstract “law of God.” I am extremely confident that Elder Scott is not contradicting the consistent Book of Mormon teaching that “mercy satisfies the demands of justice.” None of us can meet the requirements of THE LAW on our own. All of us desperately need the mercy of Christ.
In Alma, we read, ” And thus we see that all mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, which consigned them forever to be cut off from his presence. And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also…..But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed.” Alma 42:14-14,22
In this video and talk from Elder Scott, the word “law” is defined by the principles and ordinances of the gospel. And as explained in Alma, mercy is functional in our lives based on our repentence. We must repent to be forgiven. Elder Scott is very clearly not saying we all must fulfill the eternal laws of justice. None of us can do that. But without defining the word “law” in his statement, it can be taken out of context to make it look like we believe we are justified by law. And we absolutely do not believe that.
Kate- I will admit that I don’t know Dr. Phil too well. But I very much intended these statements to point out what many critics do not recognize.
I think the best demonstration or analogy of all this is found in the movie “The Ultimate Gift.” I would encourage people to see this movie. I can’t think of a better example of the very principles I am trying to describe .
In the movie, James Garner plays an elderly, super-rich, oil tycoon who is dying. He has many children and grandchildren. But they are all spoiled brats, and he does not want to leave his empire to any of them. But he does have one grandson in whom he recognizes the potential for greatness and goodness. The kid is in his early twenties and living a somewhat riotous and rebellious life. But the grandpa dies, he records a video in which he leaves a message to this one grandson. He outlines 10 (I think) tasks which this grandson must complete, after which the grandpa promises “the ultimate gift.” These ten tasks include selling everything the kid has and giving it to the poor. Working on a farm building fences for many months. Working in a poverty stricken community in a third world country. And on and on- the young man must complete these tasks that require and develop selflessness, honor, trustworthiness, mercy, and decency in the heart of the kid. After a long time, the grandson completes the tasks. He meets with the attorneys of the deceased grandpa who manage his will and huge empire. They show the boy the final video from the grandpa wherein this oil tycoon places the grandson as the equivalent of President and CEO of his empire.
This fits my description of grace, mercy, and works perfectly. The grandson does absolutely nothing to create the empire of the grandpa- he contributed in no way to its development and success. This can be equated to our salvation.
The ten tasks from the grandpa are the “laws of the gospel” or the requirements which Christ has given us to qualify for His grace. We must meet those requirements, or in Scott’s talk, His “law.”
The boy didn’t “earn” the empire because he did nothing to create it. But he was required to complete the tasks before receiving it. And the inheritence was the result of grace on the part of the grandpa.
Sorry so long, but the importance of this topic warrants it in my opinion.
Great movie. What I am suggesting here regarding grace, works, faith, mercy, is perfectly demonstrated by this Christian movie.
faithoffathers,
If I understand you correctly, then you believe that you must meet certain requirements to qualify for Christ’s mercy. (Please let me know if I am mistaken about that.) Thus, you will not qualify for Christ’s mercy if you do not meet those requirements. Something that is obtained if and only if one meets certain requirements (other than accepting the thing) is called a payment, not a gift. (If you think that definition is flawed, then please explain why.) That definition is even canonized in Romans 4:4, one of the verses that Aaron originally posted.
In light of my rationale above, I’d appreciate your answers to the following questions:
– Could you clarify exactly how you are using the term “save” and its derivatives? Perhaps your perspective appears different from mine because of a language barrier of sorts.
– Do you still hold that Christ’s mercy is a gift even though you must meet certain requirements in order to obtain it?
– You said, “It is not my work that saves me” after you strongly implied that you could not be saved without your works. How can both of those statements be true simultaneously?
Thanks in advance for being willing to dialogue with me! I look forward to hearing back from you soon.
Kenneth
P.S. Everyone in this discussion might want to read (or re-read) “The Mediator,” an April 1977 General Conference talk by Boyd K. Packer (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve). I realize that this talk is a little dated, but it’s very relevant to our current discussion. Elder Packer seemed to think that Christ refinances (in a sense) our debt to give us more time to satisfy it; Christ becomes the creditor instead of Heavenly Father. In my opinion, this is a far cry from the way that Christ’s role in the forgiveness of our sins is described in the New Testament.
(Oops; I forgot to close my link reference around the words “The Mediator”. Could one of the moderators fix that for me? Much appreciated!)
“The boy didn’t “earn” the empire because he did nothing to create it.”
You conflate ideas. He did in fact earn the empire, regardless of who created it.
Here is the “parable” from Boyd Packer found in Gospel Principles:
How does Grace as a FREE GIFT fit into this scenario? It doesn’t because you have only traded one creditor for another. You still have to work off the debt. The problem with this illustration is that a double payment is required. The Bible states that Jesus did far more than refinance the debt – he paid it off. That is the meaning of what he said from the cross: “It is finished.” That is an accounting term meaning paid in full.
Colossians 2:14 indicates that the charges against us were “nailed to the cross”, and that is a reference to a custom of the day of a creditor nailing up on a post the debtor’s signed-off, PAID-OFF debt record. So the difference is between a refinanced debt and a paid-off debt. That’s a BIG difference! It is illogical to suggest we could make time-payments to Christ but not to God. They are both the epitome of long-suffering, grace and mercy. So why not make the payments to God and skip the death of Christ? The fact is Galatians 3:21-22 says that if there was ANY kind of law-system that could bring about our justification, Christ would NOT have needed to die. But He did… and thus the “double-jeopardy” idea is sick. It is an insult to the value of the atonement:
Kenneth,
In fact, meeting the requirements which Christ has set (faith, repentence, etc.) really should not be considered a payment. They do not go directly to CAUSE salvation. In the example of the movie I mentioned, the grandson’s completion of the tasks were not payment- he didn’t do anything to cause the great wealth the grandfather had created. The lack of cause is important I think. Nothing I can do can truly cause my salvation. And my works are qualitatively different than the works of Christ which create salvation.
It is a matter of two different economies. In the movie, the grandson had nothing to do with the economy in which the oil empire was created. His work was meager in building a fence on a friends ranch, helping in a poor neighborhood, etc. He did nothing to contribute to the empire.
In the same way, nothing we do in following Christ is actually IN the economy of salvation. That economy is only effected by Christ. He is the only One qualified to create anything in that economy. As sinners, we are shut out completely from participating there.
And all the passages in the New Testament regarding mercy and being saved by faith, etc. fit this model perfectly. But this model also fits those verses that speak of works and repentence, etc.
As to your other questions:
Salvation- I use this term to refer to being saved from sin. I believe all will be resurrected, the just and the unjust. But those who will be saved from sin are those who follow Christ and meed His criteria for grace. So, salvation means here to have our sins washed away, to be justified and sanctified in Christ, and to live with God.
As to the seemingly contradictory statements about my works not saving me but being required to work to be saved- again, I think the movie is helpful. The tasks completed by the grandson did nothing to create or sustain the empire. But the grandfather required those tasks of the grandson before he could receive the inheritence. The tasks were aimed at developing honor, faith, charity, love, and selflessness within the grandson. Similarly, Christ’s requirements are aimed at developing such character within us.
I would agree that grace is a gift from Christ. He owes us nothing in the grand scheme of things and laws of the universe. We deserve nothing. Salvation is truly a gift from the love of God and the atonement of Christ. But in the small sub-economy of Christ’s requirements for grace, we are assured that He keeps His word and is generous in responding to our efforts. There are references to things we “deserve.” But it is in the context of this arrangement with Christ that these references relate.
Thank you.
FoF,
“I am extremely confident that Elder Scott is not contradicting the consistent Book of Mormon teaching that “mercy satisfies the demands of justice.”
I really don’t care about him contradicting BoM teachings. He’s contradicting the teachings of the Bible. You need to show me from the Bible that this is true. You can’t.
What Elder Scott says is “you get what you pay for” he then talks about funerals and people not earning the celestial kingdom, that can only be “earned” by meeting the requirements. Granted these are LDS teachings and the LDS believe this, this is not what Christianity or the Bible teaches.
Nowhere in the New Testament does it say we have to “earn” any part of our Salvation. Christian Salvation is living in the presence of God for eternity. Mormons only live in the presence of God in the Celestial Kingdom. Tell me, do you know if you have done enough to live in the CK? How will you know when you have met all the requirements? Do you put your trust in Jesus or yourself to pay for your eternity? Elder Scott is very clear that you won’t be in the CK unless you earn it and pay for it yourself………you get what you pay for.
“All a man’s ways seem innocent to him, but motives are weighed by the LORD.” (Proverbs 16:2)
“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” (Isaiah 64:6)
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.” (Titus 3:5)
The whole concept of “forcing” one to keep regulations so that they might someday “develop” the right attitude is a concept of men. Here is Boyd Packer again:
To compel is to force. Forced regulations are forbidden by the Apostle Paul, for good reason.
Mormons have replaced the simple “Love God and Your Neighbor” (the Royal Law) with forced regulations, which are the “commandments and doctrines of men”.
Did you hear it? The Gnostic doctrines? The members don’t even know what they espouse. Do they care? Probably not. What about, “after all we can do.” Listening to Mr. Scott, all you can do is not sounding like it’s even enough.
This is perfect. This is just what I’ve been trying to explain to people how it was. I live in an area of the country where if you try to explain to people the legalistic system of the church, they look at you like the narrator of A Christmas Story said, “like you’ve got lobsters coming out of your ears.” My wife is still a member and even though I’ve not had my name removed from the records of the church, the ward I attended understands my soapbox of grace that I’ve stood up on for years in gospel doctrines class. When I quoted Isaiah 64:6, “our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. We all wither like a leaf; our sins carry us away like the wind.” People go offended because the very thought of us being so sinful was distasteful. This is the entrapment of works. The presumptuousness it brings.
But then, last night I was studying Galatians Chapter 3 and found these wonderful words,
Galatians 3:21 and 22
“3:21 For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned everything and everyone under sin so that the promise could be given – because of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ – to those who believe.”
Wow!
I’ve heard Mr. Scott talk a lot. He’s popular among the sisters because of the pleading fatherly voice with a slight hint of a trickling tear. Almost like he wants to cry, but doesn’t. The hammering that I remember and to look back at it, it’s true people. BOM is the hook. But when you get in, the scene changes. I can’t tell anyone who hasn’t been there how much damage this does to a persons life being pounded by this quasi-Christianity. Especially when you’re really trying to serve the Lord.
One last thing, something that Ken Clark (former member and church educational instructor) and I had talked about. I myself was beating myself up and wondering why did I hang in there so long, when non of my questions were answered and I saw things and sensed it was not right. This is what he included in his testimony that really helped me.
“Why does it take so long, and why is it so hard, for people like me, (and extremely intelligent people), to leave the church once we learn that the church is not what it claims to be? Social Psychologists who study cognitive dissonance have compiled considerable evidence that helps explain it. More than half of a century of experiments, replicated in various countries around the world have confirmed the foundations of the theory. The greater the sacrifice we make, and the more we invest, to join and maintain membership in a group, the harder it is to admit that we made a mistake. Rather than admit it, we work overtime to self-justify; convincing ourselves that we did the right thing. We need to feel good, worthy, smart, and moral; so we grind, wrestle, push back, and engage in the audacious mental gymnastics, to justify our bad decisions. (Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, Mariner Books, 2008)
Because those things only get you a resurrection. Everything else, you must PAY FOR:
Mormons PAY their way into exaltation. To get a “better” exaltation than someone else you must PAY a higher price. This is grading on merit. This is anathema to the true Gospel of Christ. “I can study harder than you, work harder than you, pay more than you, and get a better reward than you. (I’ll be a higher god than you will) Obey all these “regulations” and you have earned your exaltation. And … God offers “shoddy” rewards?
@Aaron S, MJP, Old Man,
Im keeping and open mind here, I really am. This is my problem with the grace doctrine. The only scripture that people use to defend this is Pauls books that he wrote. Yes I know John 3:16 but that’s one in very few that speak about it. Even if you threw out all of Pauls doctrine and used whatever scripture that you find on grace without works, how will that work into all of the scripture that speaks about keeping the law? Why does the old testament speak so highly of the law if it was bad? Psalm 19:7 Also Psalms 119 “O, how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
How sweet are thy words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!”
Righteousness does not mean perfection. God required the saints to be righteous in order to be saved (Psalm 1:6) but perfection was not a requirement. Righteousness means chasing after the will of God. It is what a person delights in! If a person delights in the laws of God and repents for their sins than they are considered righteous. Just comparing Romans 3:10-12 and Psalm 14:1-5 it explains it . Its not saying that everyone is unrighteous but only those that do not submit to the will of God. Psalm 32 shows an example of forgiveness given during the old testament. The righteous ones were the ones that trusted in the Lord and were upright in heart. Where is the blood sacrifice here? Nowhere. It was repentance and pursuit of the will of God.
Im really not trying to step on toes here with what im about to say. I don’t put a lot of value in the teachings of Paul. Whenever I hear about grace, faith and forgiveness the only verses Im presented with are those by Paul. If this was some huge deal than why wasn’t more of his teaching reflected in the other writers of the NT? I know Old Man gave me John 3:16 but that is one verse. There are still all of the other teaching in the NT, if your going to believe all of it, that have to be taken into consideration. Sure believing is a huge deal. If you don’t believe but do all of the other things in the NT than of course you won’t go to heaven. Who would do anything else in the NT anyway if they didn’t believe in Jesus to begin with? Well that answers that question so ya DUH they would not receive eternal life.
The law is precious to God and precious to his people. The law is not bad. It wasn’t a mistake or something that was enacted to show people how awful they were. It was a guideline that people should follow in order to receive the blessing of God. The law brings sanctification. Those who love God keep his law and by keeping his law we become sanctified.
When I was LDS and I would read the story of the Prodigal Son, I always saw myself as the older and good son. I was always doing what the Church or my parents asked of me (or so I thought). I didn’t know it then but looking back I was pretty self righteous. I saw the story as a lesson to me that I shouldn’t get upset if someone who broke the rules and is forgiven that they will still receive a full inheritance. For example, I have a younger brother that would get into a lot of trouble. He was not being a good little LDS boy. I kept telling myself, if he ever cleaned himself up and became active LDS again, I shouldn’t be jealous if he still gets to go to heaven.
After leaving the Church, I reread the New Testament. I reread this parable. All of a sudden I understood. I AM THE PRODIGAL SON. I have not been perfect. I am not perfect. I have squandered my inheritance a long time ago. I was never better than my brother no matter how many rules I obeyed. I have sinned, and therefore my inheritance is gone. But my loving God is there, waiting for me, arms wide open, ready to receive me, if only I turn my life to Him.
Not long after this discovery I said to my LDS friend, “I am a sinner.” She was shocked I would say such a thing. She looked at me like I was suicidal. “NO NO. How could you say that?! Your not a sinner!” I said, “No, I am. I need God. Only he can make me right. ” I think there is a tendency in LDS to not acknowledge your own wickedness. The laws and ordinances become a measurement of righteousness.
I can’t earn my inheritance. But I am so grateful that He still wants me and is willing to take me and make me new, that I want to do all I can, knowing I will fail.
All I can say is if you are do something and say to yourself, “wow, God must be proud of me because I did this thing,” or “God will do this for me because I deserve it,” then there is something wrong. God will only be pleased with “a broken spirit; a heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise.”
Psalm 51
51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Catty, after reading this comment by you:
“The law is precious to God and precious to his people. The law is not bad. It wasn’t a mistake or something that was enacted to show people how awful they were. It was a guideline that people should follow in order to receive the blessing of God. The law brings sanctification. Those who love God keep his law and by keeping his law we become sanctified.”
and after my earlier question to you, I am not sure you have considered what “fulfilling” the law means.
No, I don’t think the law has gone away in Christ, but something profound happened with his death and resurrection concerning the law. You talk about pursuing God as what the law is ultimately about, unless I misunderstand you. But how does pursuing Christ play into that, if Christ fulfilled the law?
MJP,
I think that Christ was the example that we are to follow. He came to complete the messianic prophesy. Fulfill would be to be made complete. He was the awaited messiah. He completed messianic prophesy and will fully complete it when returns.
cattyjane
There was a time many years ago when my thought patterns were very similar to yours. I concentrated so much on the Old Covenant that I was without even realising it, pushing to one side the New Covenant. In other words I was falling into a trap set by the enemy, I was beginning to look to my own righteousness rather than to the one who died for me. So it is with all cults & all false religions, our pride will not allow us to admit to our own helplessness when confronted with the consequences of sin. Our pride tells us that ‘we can do what’s necessary’ & as soon as we start thinking along those lines we inevitably turn from Christ. There are those here who will no doubt tell me I’m wrong but I am NOT.
I was hoping you would read through what Spurgeon had to say back in the 19th Century but it appears that you have not so I’ll just say in as few words as possible what this ‘not living by the law’ is about.
The Law as regards Gods moral code will always be with us, as you rightly pointed out Christ said that not one jot of the law would be done away with. The moral law given by God stands forever but Salvation for the Christian is NOT conditional upon following those Laws. Let me explain what I mean. Christians will obey those laws but NOT in the way that a Jew or a member of the LDS would obey, they obey in order to work for their Salvation & that, to put it bluntly, is Satans snare as it leads to pride, the kind of pride that was evidenced in the video clip that Aaron showed us. For the Christian there is NO work to be done, it was all done on the Cross of Calvary & all the Christian has to do is put his faith & trust in that finished work. All Christians are of necessity, born again, that is a prerequisite of being a Christian. That spiritual rebirth comes with the anointing of the Holy Spirit, i.e. when the Spirit makes his home with the repentant sinner, when the sinners body becomes a ‘temple’ where the Spirit resides. Not a temple built by the hands of men but a more glorious Temple built by God. That person no longer follows the law as a command they follow the law because it is in their new nature to do so.
So, to sum up, The Christian will be humble himself before God & will say ‘there is nothing I can do, Christ has done it all’ The unregenerate man will say in his pride, ‘yes Christ did die for me but now I must do what I can do in order to prove myself’ Can you see the vital difference catty? The unregenerate man will always try to live by (& will die by) the law. The true Christian doesn’t have to because the law is part of his nature. Please think about that.
faithoffathers:
Thanks for your feedback. Like some of the other posters, I’m still not convinced by your analogy. The boy in the film may not have created the empire, but he merited it by completing certain tasks. Changing context slightly, would you say that I don’t earn my earthly salary because I didn’t personally collect the funds that my employer uses to pay me for my services? Should I think of the monthly deposit in my bank account as a gift that I obtained by living up to my employer’s expectations?
cattyjane:
Why does the old testament speak so highly of the law if it was bad? Psalm 19:7 Also Psalms 119 “O, how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day. How sweet are thy words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!”
Where in either of those passages do the authors describe the law as a pathway to justification? Perhaps the authors are instead rejoicing over the fact that following God’s law leads to a blessed life.
Righteousness does not mean perfection. God required the saints to be righteous in order to be saved (Psalm 1:6) but perfection was not a requirement. Righteousness means chasing after the will of God. It is what a person delights in! If a person delights in the laws of God and repents for their sins than they are considered righteous. Just comparing Romans 3:10-12 and Psalm 14:1-5 it explains it . Its not saying that everyone is unrighteous but only those that do not submit to the ill of God. Psalm 32 shows an example of forgiveness given during the old testament. The righteous ones were the ones that trusted in the Lord and were upright in heart. Where is the blood sacrifice here? Nowhere. It was repentance and pursuit of the will of God.
Is this section of your comment written from an LDS viewpoint or a non-LDS viewpoint?
There are still all of the other teaching in the NT, if your going to believe all of it, that have to be taken into consideration.
I agree with you here. If the Bible is truly a message from God and He is a perfectly consistent being, then we should read all passages in the context of all others (to the greatest possible extent).
[The law] wasn’t […] something that was enacted to show people how awful they were.
I encourage you to check out Romans 3:19-20 and Galatians 3:21-24. It is difficult for me to understand how those passages fit with your claim above. I realize that you might disregard those passages since they were both written by Paul. Do you consider Paul’s writings uninspired? If so, how do you did you come to that conclusion?
Yes, it means to be made complete, and in following after him we have therefor followed the law.
Others have said it, but when we follow Christ with full submission and all our heart, we inevitably follow the law. We remain clean, and we worship God, and we ensure that he is the center of our lives. Ultimately, isn’t that what the OT laws were designed to accomplish?
Now, some may disagree with me, but I happen to think that it is possible, if one’s heart is correct, to follow all the OT laws absolutely perfectly and to be saved. But Christ changed all of that. If we follow and pursue him, we will be covered because he has (or even will) fulfill the law. It is no longer necessary to follow all of the OT laws because Christ has fulfilled them, and when we are in him, we also have fulfilled the law.
Kenneth,
It is a matter of have two different economies. There is the economy in which the oil tycoon built his fortune, and the other economy between the tycoon and his grandson. You could say that the grandson earned the empire only within the context of the economy between him and his grandfather. But he certainly did not earn it in the true economy of the oil industry.
I think Elder Packer’s parable presents the same idea- two economies. One which the naive young man started and failed in and in which the mediator eventually steps in to pay the debt. Then there is another economy between the mediator and the young man. Different conditions. Different payments.
It can be confusing. But the analogy in the movie works perfectly in my opinion.
In the context of your employment, you deserve that paycheck because you make a defined, real contribution to the company for whom you work. In other words, you make a real qualitative and quantitative contribution in the larger economy in which you company exists. Without you, your company would be less that it is with you in that larger economy.
In the context of the grandpa and the grandson, the grandson makes absolutely no contribution to the larger economy or to the company created by the grandpa.
Same with the gospel. Our works and righteousness make no real contribution to the real, larger “economy” or laws of the universe. Like King Benjamin said, we are all “unprofitable servants.” And it is pure mercy upon which our hope and salvation rests. God and Christ being kind enough to carry our weight, have made a “micro-economy” in which we can meet some terms with them, yet be granted enormous “profits” in the larger economy of the universe and eternity.
In this way, I can say that my works do not contribute anything to my salvation. But I am nevertheless required to perform those works.
Does that make any sense?
Yuck, leave it to a Mormon to take the beauty of the atonement and salvation and turn it into some kind of business arrangement with microeconomics. No wonder the LDS faiths is littered with business men and lawyers. It all makes sense to me now.
Works are required in that if one has faith, work will follow or there was no real faith to begin with. But work does nothing for ones salvation. Works are a symptom of a greater work that has been done within. A work that has been done by Christ when He changes us and gives us new life. Even our works are not our own.
Jaxi,
You might open the New Testament and keep track of how many times Christ speaks of money and relates the gospel to monetary reality. He uses money to represent the gospel more often than anything else.
Crazy, huh.
I have never read anything in the gospel any where close to what you are describing. If there were you would have actually used scripture instead.
Here’s the deal folks. We’re having another one of those cross cultural communication discussions with these Mormon posters.
They are describing Mormonism so from that perspective what they are saying is correct. It’s what Mormonism teaches.
Now the question is, is Mormonism true?
Mormonism certainly isn’t normative Christianity so anything that Mormons say isn’t applicable to Christianity.
Mormons have millions or perhaps billions of gods and the hope of every Mormon man is that he become a god also. There’s no way in the Mormon system that said man is going to attain that level by the grace of the Mormon god. Mormons have to work for it. A Mormon has to be perfect to become a god.
So I really don’t care what Mormons say about anything because it has no applicability to my life and it’s not related to who God is and what He has done for us through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mormonism is not true, the Mormon god doesn’t exist, Mormon prophets are empty headed and those who follow them should be pitied.
Jaxi,
Eleven of the 39 parables Jesus taught employed money.
He talked about money more than heaven and hell combined.
One out of every 7 verses in Luke talk about money.
But that makes sense. The land was “cursed” for Adam’s sake (for ours as well). There were things for him and us to learn as we make a living in this world. And Jesus, of course, knew those lessons were fundamental to our development and education and salvation. And that is why He employed the principles of money so often in His teaching.
And by the way, I posted the parable of the talents above as an example.
Thanks.
Just because money is being used in a parable doesn’t mean it is trying to make the same point as you. money talk doesn’t bother me. It’s when you have taken God’s work and turned into a business transaction. I am not doing a business deal with Christ. I am not meeting terms in a business arrangement with the expectation of large “profits.” I am giving Him my heart, and because He has my heart I will follow Him and serve Him all my days. I am all for doing works for Christ. But it is not to meet terms to some kind of agreement, it is not for profit; it is out of my love and devotion for God.
@Kenneth,
Im sorry it took me so long to reply. I had a situation come up and I was just barely able to get a response to you about your questions.
Yes I am a member of the LDS but I am inactive at the moment. I have been doing some research to try and figure out what the truth is to all of the scripture. I am not coming at any of the questions from any angle but my own at the present time. What I say on this blog is my perception and not the perception of any denomination. My sources might have a denomination tied to them but I don’t consider myself to be practicing any type of religion at the moment or claiming any spiritual reference. I do have a faith that I am leaning more towards but Im keeping an open mind at the moment. I hope that made sense.
You asked a lot of question so in order to explain what I meant I will have to summarize and give more scripture than explanation but I am willing to clarify what ever doesn’t make sense. My argument is that the old testament did not require a blood sacrifice every time a sin was committed like the Christian churches that I have attended make people believe. God gave forgiveness many times without a sacrifice and yes sometimes it was based on their works. Jonah 3:10 says that God saw their works, they abandoned their evil ways and God forgave them. Jonah 3:7 speaks about the people fasting for forgiveness. Jonah 3:8 said the people cried out to God and they turned from their evil ways. Numbers 16:47 says that Aaron offered incense for atonement for all the people. Numbers 31:50 says that Jewelry was offered. Isaiah 6:6-7 This one even says that he inflicted harm to his body for forgiveness and sin removal by burning his lips. Jeremiah 7:22-23 talks about how people should not become to dependent on sacrifices because it is not pleasing to God but that obedience is desired more. Sacrifice was only intended for unintentional sins Leviticus 4-5 and Numbers 15:22-30. Chronicles 7:14 states that the true desire of God is a repentant heart and a return to him. Hosea 14:2 when the correct Hebrew translation is applied it means the “bulls of our lips” not “fruit of our lips” This would mean sacrifice is offered in prayer, not on an alter. Scripture that speaks of forgiveness in the old testament are as follows: Proverbs 28:13 (no sacrifice mentioned), Psalm 32:1-5, Isaiah 55:6-7 (return to god), Hosea 6:6 (no burnt offering) Proverbs 16:6, and Proverbs 21:3.
I do consider Pauls writings uninspired. I do not believe that he was an official apostle like he claims himself to be.
“It is curious that no Jewish rabbinic writings of the 1st or 2nd century so much as mention a renegade student of Gamaliel who, having studied under the master and vigorously enforced orthodoxy on behalf of the high priests, experienced a life-changing vision on an away mission. Not a word emerges from the rabbis about the star pupil who “went bad”, a heretic who scrapped the prohibitions of the Sabbath, urged his followers to disregarded Judaism’s irksome dietary regulations, and pronounced the Law and circumcision obsolete. Surely such a renegade could not have completely escaped the attention of the scribes?
How likely is it that Paul really studied under the Pharisaic grandee (Acts 22.3)? Paul clearly had difficulty with the Hebrew language: all his scriptural references are taken from the Greek translation of Jewish scripture, the Septuagint. ”
“Called to account before Aretas, king of the Arabs, he fled from city to city, hunted by all men, hated as a transgressor of the laws, abhorred as the butcher of his country and his countrymen.”
Paul? No, the High Priest Jason, as reported by 2 Maccabees 5.8.
The year was 172 BC.”
“For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.” – Acts 20.16.
“Ostensibly, Paul was in a hurry to reach Jerusalem for Pentecost (yet he had just chosen to walk from Troas to Assos, rather than take ship with the rest of the guys?!) For this reason Paul sailed right past the port of Ephesus. Instead, he made landing further down the coast at Miletus where he summons “elders of the church” to come to him from Ephesus (Acts 20.17). His purpose was to bid farewell. However, the entire episode is a pious fantasy, as a close examination of the ancient topography makes startlingly obvious.Any journey to or from Ephesus would have been complicated by the fact that Miletus stood on a peninsula and remained so until further silting of the delta finally closed the Gulf of Latmos during the Byzantine era and created Lake Bafa. Paul would have needed to send a messenger to Ephesus to announce his arrival and then have waited for the presbyters to arrive. It was a journey of over fifty miles in each direction and both the messenger and the brethren would have needed a small vessel themselves to sail between Miletus and Priene!” You can see these maps at the website I posted. All of this came from this site.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/paul-in-jerusalem.html
I have also heard some rabbis speak about the issue with Pauls supposed apostleship and I can send you those videos as well if you want. Im sorry about the website title. I do believe Jesus existed. Its just the location of the information. There is a lot of information on this site with scripture reference but I don’t want to post to much on here. My intention is not to offend anyone on here. I am just here to have questions answered. Ive had more luck here than I have from pastors, missionaries and churches that is for sure.
Old Man,
I am not looking to my own righteousness. I feel more at peace with the OT than I have ever felt trying to understand the NT. When people speak about the cruelty of God in the OT, I don’t see it. God forgave and overlooked so many sins in the OT that it is amazing! Ive already written so much that I don’t want to go into it. God forgave those that turned from their sins in the OT. Forgiveness did exist in the OT. Im not saying that Im going to earn brownie points for all my good deeds. What im saying is that we are still expected to follow the laws if we are going to be followers of the God of the OT (which is the same as the new). One cannot exist without the other. Everytime I try to grasp this “grace through faith without works” thing it just causes me more confusion. Ive practiced a religion that is full of confusion and Im am sick of being confused and im tired of listening to people tell me that everything cant be explained or understood. The best one is just believe and God will provide the answers as you act in faith. What? For that matter I can believe a religion that says God is a purple Barney Dinosaur. God is not the author of confusion says Paul 1 Corinthians 14:33 but Paul sure does confuse me so what does that say? Faith does not save! Knowing truth and believing because of proof from the truth is what saves. In Faith I can create anything in my head and say it is real but If I have proof to know what is right, that is power and that is real! The true God reveals himself to many and does creep around in the forest in secret or appear in some mystical light. When he wants to reveal himself he makes a big show of it so that people know who he is and know that he is God.
Ok Ive said enough Im sorry its so long. I hope I don’t upset anyone with this but Im just answering a question that I was asked. Thanks.
Jaxi,
No analogy is perfect. The point of an analogy is to explain or teach a principle or set of ideas or virtues.
I bet you understand my “take” on the relationships between faith, mercy, grace, and works a lot better than you did before I used the analogy from the movie “The Ultimate Gift.”
Do I seek to “profit” from Christ. Of course not. Analogies have their limitations. But sometimes they can tease out relationships and principles that are difficult to describe in an abstract description.
I find it strange and somewhat ironic that you would scrutinize the details of an analogy to come off as holier or more worthier than somebody else.
faithoffathers:
I truly appreciate all of your hard work to make your ideas clear. To me, though, your “dual economies” explanation of salvation still seems like “works” with a different name. Can you support your theory using the Bible alone?
<"I find it strange and somewhat ironic that you would scrutinize the details of an analogy to come off as holier or more worthier than somebody else."
Woa, holier? Worthier? there's no such thing. Holy, holy, holy is God and Im not God. And unworthy is unworthy, there is no worthier. You are either worthy or you arent and Im not. I'm no better than anyone. My point was that your analogy takes the very heart and spirit out of the atonement and salvation. I wasn't criticizing you, I was criticizing the analogy. Your analogy is missing a crucial element, love. I am sorry that me sharing that I follow Christ because of love for Him and not reward made you feel like I was trying to place myself above you. I am actually confused on how me sharing that I love God, means that I am saying I am holy or worthy. One of the very reasons I love God so much is because He loves me despite my unworthiness.
So FOF, and other Mormons, would have us believe that what they are expressing is what first century Christians believed and practiced.
That definitely is a bridge too far.
We had a bunch of 19th century dudes, one of who was a convicted “glass looker”, basically giving creative license to the idea of religion.
We can see why modern day Mormons, of the SLC and FLDS sects in particular, give way to the same sort of spiritual free association game.
Any one of us could come up with a religion this afternoon, claim it’s revelation and contend it’s really what first century Christians believe. The problem is there’s no evidence that Mormonism ever existed until Joseph Smith began to apply his penchant for folk magic to Christianity.
It’s amazing, though, how far a guy can go with a magic rock, a little hocus pocus and a lot of imagination.
All it takes is the ability to convince people who are gullible enough to believe your fantasy.
Catty, didn’t God save many in the OT simply by believing or turning away? Isn’t that salvation without works?
Its interesting to note that many of the examples of sacrifices you list that are not blood sacrifice are still sacrifices.
My understanding is that Christ’s blood sacrifice was really the ultimate sacrifice. If you are hung up on the “blood sacrifice” aspect, I would urge you to rethink that. In the OT, people were saved without a blood sacrifice, and they were saved by merely believing in God. (If you want, think of the sparing of these people as evidence against a works theology.)
I think this is accomplished through Christ now. The necessity (or lack of necessity) of the blood sacrifice does not change the desire for a sacrifice of some sort, or the faith element in salvation.
Again, Christ fulfilled the law. He said, “It is finished.”
cattyjane,
Here’s something for you. It’s called the Abrahamic Covenant.
In OT times the most serious covenant was the one that was made with a blood sacrifice. The reason it was so serious was that if a person didn’t keep the covenant, their life could be required of them. In this case, with Abraham, the sacrifice was a blood covenant. In those days the people making the covenant would walk down between the split animals. In this situation, God “walked” down the path Himself, not require Abraham to do so. It was a unilateral covenant.
Genesis 12:17-21
OPS
The Scripture reference above should be:
Genesis 15: 17-21
I better go out and ride my bike or plant some more flowers to clear my head!
Falcon,
Ok im trying to piece this together. This sacrifice that Abraham was a part of was not a sacrifice for forgiveness of sin but to show the agreement and promise between god and abraham. God was showing abraham that he would not break the promise he made to him. Am I right? Are you trying to relate this to Jesus death on the cross? If so im not seeing the connection.
Cattyjane,
I don’t mean this to be rude. But why exactly are you here? You may be LDS but if you are throwing Paul under the bus than you clearly don’t have any intentions on staying LDS. You are arguing a different type of Christianity that I don’t think anyone here believes. You can’t possibly by trying to learn from anyone here because you seem very set on what you believe and it is not congruent with traditional Christianity. I just can’t figure out what you are trying to accomplish. I can’t see this site being of any benefit to you with the direction you are currently taking with your beliefs. The points you bring up don’t exactly help dialogue between Mormons (who believe in Mormonism) and Christians. I am just completely perplexed by what you are trying to accomplish.
Falcon said
A more fun and better challange would be to go wrestle with the back yard bear of yours. I think you could do it.
cattyjane,
OK you’re getting there. I’m generally very “directive” in my approach to teaching but here I’m going to give you some things to think about and develop some conclusions. Go to the OT again and read:
Jeremiah 31:31-34
First Corinthians 11: 23-26
Jesus’ death on the cross, the shedding of His blood, was a sign of the New Covenant, a Blood Covenant.
Rick,
The bear visited again the other night. He ate the suet I had out for the birds. Now everything goes in the garage at night.
I recently bought a Springfield M1A-Socom16 rifle. I may have to load it up!
Cattyjane,
I am sorry about my last comment if it seemed mean. I am really trying to understand where you are coming from. Based on the things you have been saying. It sounds like you are attracted to the “Hebrew Roots Movement,” or that you are looking into becoming a “Messianic Christian.” Is that accurate? I know you said that you are not speaking from a specific denomination. But it seems like everything you comment on comes from that perspective?
@cattyjane,
The Apostle Paul was seen by the early Christians as an apostle (see Galatians). The early apostles also accepted Paul, and more importantly, his teaching as inspired. If Paul’s writings were not accepted by the early church as orthodox, they would not have been copied like they were and sent from church to church. And finally, the idea of Jesus paying the complete payment of atonement offered through faith is found in more than just Paul’s letters. Here are just a few examples through the Gospels, Acts, and Hebrews (there are also more through 1-3 John, Jude, and Revelation).
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15 ESV) [The word repent in the Greek means to change ones mind not become perfect in sinlessness]
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (John 1:12 ESV)
that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:15, 16 ESV)
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24 ESV)
The book of John is filled with references showing faith as the requirement for salvation. Also, the book of Acts, written by Luke also shows the same consistent theology.
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31 ESV)
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 ESV) [Most probably not written by the Apostle Paul.]
There’s tons more that can be thrown in here.
@jaxi,
Ive never heard of either one of those movements. Ive heard of Messianic Judaism but not Messianic Christianity.
@falcon and bobby,
Thanks. I got a little bit of clarity on some things and some food for thought. I actually thought that Paul wrote Hebrews and Acts. I wont drag this out anymore since I guess it is off topic. My fault but thanks for all the answers.