Mormon Apostle on Sins of Omission

It has been awhile since this 5-minute video was posted at its Deseret Book website, but it has recently been making some waves in the blogosphere. In this Q&A with a Mormon apostle, a young LDS boy asks David Bednar, “If you, like, stop reading the scriptures, what is the best way, how is the best way, to get back into reading them?” Dr. Bednar takes this opportunity to provide an object lesson for his audience.

Please watch “The Lord’s Side of the Line”:

I am troubled by this video.

Maybe it’s my mother’s heart that makes me feel sorry for the little boy as he struggles to hold back his tears.

Maybe it’s the way Dr. Bednar’s illustration feels like a threat, similar to a misguided parent who tells her child, “If you get out of bed the boogeyman will get you!”

Maybe it’s the way the lesson communicates to the little boy that he will never be safe.

Maybe it’s Dr. Bednar’s implied message that if a person makes a “mistake” and crosses the line there is no way back.

Maybe it’s the bottom-line Mormon teaching that staying on the Lord’s side is 100% about behavior and 0% about Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

Maybe it’s Dr. Bednar’s total neglect of any mention of God’s love and mercy — the one thing that would comfort this frightened little boy, and the one thing that everyone needs most of all (Titus 3:3-7).

I am troubled by this video. What do you think of it?

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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128 Responses to Mormon Apostle on Sins of Omission

  1. jaxi says:

    I am so glad that this was a post. I recently saw this video and was appalled at his answer and his visual demonstration. His answer was terrible and not a good answer for someone claiming to be a disciple let alone apostle of Christ. I am assuming this boy asked this question because he was struggling with scripture reading and the answer given to him was that the devil was going to get him. I felt uncomfortable watching this video and I can only imagine how this boy felt who seemed to be on the verge of tears. I don’t think he mentioned Christ once in his answer. What about read the scriptures to learn from and love God? What about pray for help? What about practical advice for how to remember and get into a good routine? My only hesitation with if he actually gave good advice is that this boy would be likely reading things that aren’t really God’s word, i.e. BOM, DnC, POGP. But that aside, this was an abysmal answer by a religious leader claiming to be Christian. Yet, it really does reflect the nature of the organization which is action out of fear and duty and not out of love.

  2. jardim says:

    I couldn’t watch the video–I am traumatized enough by two decades of worrying if I was doing enough to make God happy.

    This summer one of my still LDS friends confessed that she was scared to die because she wasn’t sure the balance was in her favor.

  3. faithoffathers says:

    Oh my gosh you guys. You find negative meanings and elements in absolutely everything LDS.

    Tell me- what about Elder Bednar’s answer was incorrect? Was his answer to the question wrong?

    He encouraged meaningful study of scriptures and prayer as a means of going “deeper into the safety of the ‘Lord’s territory.'” Implicit in that message is the safety, love, and joy that comes from God and His Son. On the other hand, the discouragement, danger, and darkness that comes with turning away from God and giving in to temptation is very real.

    You guys really sound P.C. to me here- compromise truth for good and warm feelings. Hmmm. That sounds like a criticism I hear pretty consistently from our critics.

    Was Elder Bednar unloving? Was he saying something that was not true?

    I liked really liked the object lesson and would guess that nobody in the audience will forget that very simple and true principle Elder Bednar taught.

  4. merrick says:

    That is not the gospel! What a terrible weight for any person to bear. It reminds of a lovely illustration by an LDS woman named Chieko Okazaki who was showing how ridiculously many LDS people look at GRACE – she said it’s like drowning in an ocean and Jesus is standing on the shore saying, “I’ll throw you the life preserver, but not until you’ve done all that you can do!”

    The point is, we aren’t trying to “stay safe,” we are crying out for redemption. As Ravi Zacharias said recently, “You can’t be righteous until you are first redeemed.”

    Yes, I agree that we need to read God’s Word and avoid the world, etc. which is what I will strive to do out of my love for God – but not at the expense of constantly wondering which side of the line I’m on. Being on the right side of the line was bought with a precious price and my actions have nothing to do with it.

    This video I’m posting says it all!!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wj8idf01CKI&feature=youtu.be

  5. jaxi says:

    FoF,

    Yes, there is incorrect things in what he taught. For one thing, he didn’t even answer the boys question. He said what do you do to get back into the habit of scripture study. As in, what if you are already out of the habit. All Bednar told him was to do, do, do and stay away from that side of the line by doing. He doesn’t address what people should do if they feel they are not on the Lord’s side of the line. He seems to imply once there, Satan has you and it’s almost impossible, if not impossible to cross back over. He doesn’t tell the boy how to get back over. He just brings him back over to the “good side” and tells him to remember how bad he felt on the other side. Did Bednar mention Christ redeeming him? Did he mention Christ being able to pull him back by just asking for His love and forgiveness, His mercy? No, he did not. And by omitting that in his answer it is an automatic incorrect answer. You can not say that it is implied. In fact what Bednar says is, “You are in charge. You are in control.” You, you, you, do, do, do. No Christ, no mercy, no undeserved forgiveness. His point is, you put yourself in enemy territory by not doing, and you get yourself out by doing. This is not compatible with the Word of God as given in the Bible. So yes, FOF, to answer your question, Bednar is not loving by giving his fear the boogie man works answer, and he gave an answer that is false if it is supposedly a Christian response. But as a Mormon response, it is a right answer for a false gospel.

  6. MJP says:

    No mention of Christ at all in the video. In fact, the child was told HE, the child, was in charge, not Christ. He was told to get back into reading scriptures by remembering what it felt like to be on the other side. This is guilt! This is not grace or mercy. This is a message that if he goes the other way, it is his fault.

    FoF asks if there was any incorrect in the video, and I have to agree with Jaxi in her response: YES a thousand times. There is no love in the response, and no reminder that we lean on Christ to do all things. It misses the simple truth concering our faith that we are sanctified in Christ before we can work. In other words and addressing this young man’s question: how do you get back to reading scripture, by relying on Christ. Christ will take care of us better than any of us can on our own.

    I am a living testimony of that truth.

  7. falcon says:

    Look, I know this is really uncharitable, but……………
    FOF has a warped view of who God is and what the message of salvation (is).
    This is legalistic and something I certainly don’t and won’t have any part of. I’m not into “doing” out of compulsion. What ever I do flows from an understanding of God’s love, mercy, kindness and benevolence and, yes, His grace.
    LDS folks like FOF will never understand this until they learn who God is and what it is He has done for us through His Son Jesus Christ.
    I don’t HAVE TO read the Bible, but I do. I don’t HAVE TO pray, but I do. I do whatever I do because I’ve been born again by the Spirit of God. It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me.

  8. Rick B says:

    FoF,
    Here’s a question for you, and something tells me you will avoid it? Why is Jesus not mentioned in this video by this so called apostle? And why is it in the LDS church, in LDS teachings and LDS posters here on this blog, do you guys rarely if ever mention Jesus? It’s always, what we can do, what we have done, what we should do, or it’s JS or some other prophet, apostle, or LDS leader thats mentioned, but never Jesus. Where is Jesus, is he playing Hide and go seek?

  9. faithoffathers says:

    RickB,

    B.S. We “never mention Jesus?” That is pathetic, dishonest, and incorrect. But it is certainly convenient and fits the narrative you promote.

    When it comes to all things relating to the church- you are 100% about painting a caricature as disproportionate as possible. You truly fit the passage from Isaiah about making a man “an offender for a word.” Elder Bednar shares an object lesson and you guys see glaring falsehoods and dark intention or evil seeping out of this man. You want him to go into some impressive explanation about sanctification and justification or some theological sermon. Do you think the boy would remember such a discourse? In my opinion, you have no sense of judgment or reason when it comes to the church. You so badly want to find evil and bad in the church and its members. I honestly feel sorry for you guys here. I think there must be significant vacancies in your lives. And given the inability to explain the most fundamental doctrine in your faith, I can see why.

  10. falcon says:

    FOF,
    Come on, we provide commentary based on what we know to be true about Mormonism as practiced by the LDS sect out of SLC.
    We’re not making anything up or shading the facts. Read your own literature and reflect on the teachings of your prophets.
    And what’s this:
    “… given the inability to explain the most fundamental doctrine in your faith, I can see why.”
    Would you please provide an example of this. As Christians on this blog we are constantly and consistently explaining, exhorting the Gospel of Jesus Christ as plainly taught in God’s Word, the Bible.
    The problem is that you don’t get it because your mind has been seared and your thought processes clouded by the false spirit that inhabits Mormonism. Because of that you believe that you have to earn the Mormon reward of becoming a god.
    Here it is FOF the gospel:
    Man is separated from God because of sin.
    God has provided a remedy form mankind’s dilemma by providing the perfect sacrifice for sin, His Son Jesus Christ.
    We receive the gift of eternal life by putting our faith and trust in Jesus for what He has done for us; something that we couldn’t do for ourselves.

    There you are buddy. Do you understand that simple explanation or are you going to insist that there are many gods in the universe and that you will become a god if you do enough of the right stuff?
    I’ll tell you what. Why don’t you share with us what we haven’t explained well enough for you to understand. I do know this. The former Mormons, now Christians, and the Christians on this blog understand the form of Mormonism you practice far better than you yourself do.

  11. Old man says:

    “B.S. We “never mention Jesus?” That is pathetic, dishonest, and incorrect. But it is certainly convenient and fits the narrative you promote.”

    Not pathetic, not dishonest, not incorrect. My ex, a steadfast Mormon until recently, told me a couple of months ago that one of the reasons she started to lose faith in the LDS was because Jesus was rarely if ever mentioned, everything was centred around Joseph Smith your false prophet so, let’s have a little less propaganda & a little more honesty.

    You need to remember that you are not the only poster here with experience of the LDS many here have as much if not more knowledge of it as you & are certainly as qualified to speak against it as you are for it.

  12. MJP says:

    “You want him to go into some impressive explanation about sanctification and justification or some theological sermon. Do you think the boy would remember such a discourse?”

    No, just a simple reminder that the way to not stray too far is to always remember Jesus and to faith in Him. It really is that easy. And yes, the boy would remember that message.

  13. faithoffathers says:

    falcon says, “The problem is that you don’t get it because your mind has been seared and your thought processes clouded by the false spirit that inhabits Mormonism.” Watch out for UFOs!

    Old man- mere membership does not guarantee any depth of understanding. Isn’t one of the criticisms that you guys throw out constantly the complaint that we don’t share the truth with investigators before they are baptized and that our members don’t know that much about our religion? Hmm. Now, you claim that former membership is qualification enough to discuss the church as well as anybody else. Double standard number 5,239.

    You want an example? How about the inability to explain the trinity? It doesn’t get any more foundational than that. (But that is another topic, and I don’t want to distract from this thread)

    MJP- can you emphasize or teach Christ better than the scriptures can? Doesn’t holy writ bring people to Christ. Is there a better way to remember Christ than reading the scriptures? Do you not see a problem in the criticism you guys are leveling here- saying that we leave out Christ, and that Elder Bednar didn’t mention Christ- when the scriptures testify of Christ and teach of Him better than individuals can? And Elder Bednar was teaching the importance of reading the scriptures? That seems a little disingenuous coming from folks who insist that the Bible is their authority.

  14. MJP says:

    No, I don’t see a problem in verbally encouraging a child to rely on Christ rather than telling him he is in control of reading the scriptures and that his failure to read them will lead him closer to the devil. Maybe you can explain the problem a little better.

    I’ll explain my problem with your position a little more: we suggest encouraging faith in Christ and his saving power whereas you promote personal effort as the saving power.

  15. faithoffathers says:

    From my years on this planet and studying and searching for eternal truth, if there was only one thing I could encourage a person to do to find eternal safety and to find Christ, it would be to read the scriptures humbly. In my experience, nothing can take the place of personal time and effort studying and praying over the scriptures. I can’t really think of a more direct approach to God and mercy and grace than drinking from the fountain of truth in the scriptures. Elder Bednar’s object lesson does not contain the meaning that you all are trying to squeeze into it about our effort and control vs. Christ’s power. We do control how much we read the scriptures. That is absolutely true. Therefore, we should exercise that power to come unto Christ through studying the scriptures. And in doing so, we will find the safety, love, and security to which Elder Bednar referred.

    There is absolutely nothing incorrect in Elder Bednar’s object lesson. Or would you guys suggest that there is no danger in not reading the scriptures or praying or in entertaining temptation? Is there a safer place to demonstrate the contrast between these two opposing influences in our lives than on a pretty rug with what I believe is an apostle of Jesus Christ? No. But you guys will find some way of criticizing- that is what you do. Sad.

  16. MJP says:

    Oh, we value reading scripture. Perhaps you should research our teachings a bit more. Again, you show a startling ignorance when it comes to our faith.

    Perhaps you do emphasize Christ, but that does not come out in the above video, and others have stated that they find/found a lack of emphasis on Christ in your church. I don’t feel too bad making the connection that its true with this evidence. It would have been very easy for Bednar to simply tell the boy that Jesus will help him stay in the scriptures and not fall away, but he didn’t do that. He proceeded to tell the boy that it would be his fault, his agency, if he fell back in the devil’s arms. In fact, he told the boy to remember what it feels like to be in the various places and to decide on which felt better. That message is not a message of love in Christ.

  17. falcon says:

    FOF,
    You don’t know and understand about deceptive spirits that’s plain by your snarky comment. Have you ever read the NT. Try the Book of Revelation. What kind of spirit was Joseph Smith being guided by as he searched for buried treasure using a divination stone? Your lack of knowledge and understand of spiritual dynamics is stunning. Should I haul out the accounts of Mormons who claim to have seen the spirits of the dead as they (Mormons) performed their rituals in the temple. You know, saw through the “veil”. And while we’re at it, how about the use of second sight vision by Smith and his crowd to see into the spirit world?

    You want us to explain the doctrine of the Trinity to you. I don’t care what the topic is FOF, you’ll always claim that a sufficient enough explanation has not been provided for you.

  18. Old man says:

    “Old man- mere membership does not guarantee any depth of understanding. Isn’t one of the criticisms that you guys throw out constantly the complaint that we don’t share the truth with investigators before they are baptized and that our members don’t know that much about our religion”
    You’re not getting away with it that easily FofF, you said this to RickB

    “B.S. We “never mention Jesus?” That is pathetic, dishonest, and incorrect.
    & I responded with this
    “Not pathetic, not dishonest, not incorrect. My ex, a steadfast Mormon until recently, told me a couple of months ago that one of the reasons she started to lose faith in the LDS was BECAUSE JESUS WAS RARELY IF EVER MENTIONED, everything was centred around Joseph Smith your false prophet so, let’s have a little less propaganda & a little more honesty.”

    Why do you always insist on evading the issues? I told you what my ex had witnessed & you start talking about ‘mere members’. Does the fact that my ex was a ‘mere member’ make her witness invalid? Are you saying she couldn’t understand why Christ was never mentioned because she was a ‘mere member’? You insult my intelligence with your reply & you insult my ex with your arrogance.

    “? Hmm. Now, you claim that former membership is qualification enough to discuss the church as well as anybody else. Double standard number 5,239.”

    I said nothing of the kind, why must you continually distort what is said to you? This is what I said:
    “You need to remember that you are not the only poster here with experience of the LDS many here have as much if not more knowledge of it as you & are certainly as qualified to speak against it as you are for it.”

    Now show me where I said ‘former membership is qualification enough’

    I’m wondering what Grindael would have to say about that, after all, he was just a ‘mere member’

  19. falcon says:

    So FOF doesn’t think that a demonic spirit drives Mormonism.
    May I remind him that the Bible clearly teaches that a false spirit disguises itself as a spirit of light. All I have to do to determine if a religion is true or false is to ask the person who God is. In the case of Mormonism, their god is one of many gods, perhaps millions or billions of them, Mormons are taught. Who is Jesus in Mormonism? The Mormon Jesus is the spirit off-spring of one of the Mormon gods and one of his multiple wives who live on or near the planet Kolob. Mormons even teach that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers having been procreated by this Mormon god and one of his many wives. The Holy Spirit in Mormonism is different than the Holy Ghost. The Holy Spirit is a “force” likened to electricity.
    Now does anyone have any doubt that the Mormonism embraced and practiced by FOF isn’t driven by a demonic spirit? Then we could discuss the Mormon temple rituals lifted directly from the cultic Free Masons.
    FOF you look at the dark oppressive spirit of Mormonism and see light and beauty. What kind of a dark demonic cloud hangs over you?

  20. faithoffathers says:

    Old man- I only have my experience in the church. And my experience is extremely different than what you are describing. And you want me to place more weight on the reported experience of a former wife of an anonymous critic of the church who is posting on a website critical of the church than on my own experiences? That is a different kind of faith, my friend. I am calling B.S. again on your claims that the church places more emphasis on Joseph Smith than Jesus Christ. That is a poor and pathetic criticism that is intended only to smear and caricaturize a church. It is just flat out lazy and weak.

    My comment about membership was in response to your suggestion that former membership qualifies some of the critics here to discuss things and that it gives additional weight to their arguments. And that means next to nothing to me. How about I simply say that because so many of the members of my church came from protestant and evangelical churches, their testimonies and arguments should be weighed more heavily in our discussion? Does that feel good to you?

    Why the appeal to grindael? What kind of member was he? A super-member? It is telling that he is seen here as some type of authority on the church. He doesn’t even think grace has any role in our doctrine outside of the resurrection. He might as well not have ever heard of the Book of Mormon.

    falcon- you are a consistent source of entertainment. Your argument is no different than those who quote the passage about false prophets as some type of proof that Joseph Smith is a false prophet. If a verse in the NT refers to dark or bad or deceptive elements in religion, you somehow think that shows that such is true about our church. Piaget described that type of thinking.

  21. grindael says:

    He doesn’t even think grace has any role in our doctrine outside of the resurrection.

    That is because it doesn’t. And the Book of Mormon proves it, as do the statements of Mormon “authorities”. Sorry you refuse to see it, but hey, it is what it is. I’ve provided the actual proof. You have not.

  22. Old man says:

    “And you want me to place more weight on the reported experience of a former wife of an anonymous critic of the church who is posting on a website critical of the church than on my own experiences? ….. I am calling B.S. again on your claims that the church places more emphasis on Joseph Smith than Jesus Christ.”

    I did not ask or expect you to place more weight on her witness but neither did I expect you to imply that she is less than honest simply because her experience was different to yours. She told me what she experienced in her church, & what she experienced was enough to start her on her journey out of it. You are saying to me that her witness means nothing that she is in all probability being dishonest because of her previous relationship to me.
    Let me assure you my arrogant friend that she is not the kind of woman who would do that & your implication that she is, without knowing anything at all about her, shows the kind of man you are. She left a false & corrupt organization for the very good reason that it was in CONFLICT with Christianity, It was in conflict because CHRIST WAS RARELY IF EVER MENTIONED it was all about JOSEPH SMITH.
    Are you reading what I said? JOSEPH SMITH WAS TALKED ABOUT FAR MORE THAN CHRIST.
    Don’t you get it? Many years ago when she was a Christian she believed that Christ was the centre, everything revolved around Him. She eventually came to realise that in the Mormon Church everything revolved around Joe Smith. She was taught that in the Mormon church, she listened to it every Sunday. She heard it week after week after week & you have the gall to tell me that because you never heard it then it couldn’t have been so.

    “Why the appeal to grindael? What kind of member was he? A super-member?”

    You love to mock, there was no appeal to Grindael, I wondered what he would think about it simply because he was a ‘mere member’ as you so insultingly call all who had the integrity to leave your obviously corrupt & false religion. But, Grindael even though he was a mere member knows your organization inside out.

    “He might as well not have ever heard of the Book of Mormon.”
    Try reading the BofM again, you won’t find modern LDS doctrine in it but you will find the Trinity

  23. Rick B says:

    FoF said

    “B.S. We “never mention Jesus?” That is pathetic, dishonest, and incorrect. But it is certainly convenient and fits the narrative you promote.”

    Ok FoF, Back it up, PROVIDE a link to a G.C that we can all listen to where all they talk about is Jesus, what He did for us, how He provides, and how it’s all about Jesus. You cannot and will not.

    Dont provide a link where your prophet or presdient or who ever mentions the name of Jesus just once or twice, and one can do that.

    Jesus said in the Bible, you search the the scriptures for they testify of Me. It’s all about Him.

    Then you claim the trinity. Again, what a joke, we ask you for evidence for all sorts of things, and you ignore us, then ask for info on the trinity. We give you so much info on the trinity and all you do is ignore it and claim we dont. Why are you even here? Your such an embarasment to mormonism that the church should step in and remove you and clyde.

  24. Ironman1995 says:

    The words of Joseph Smith are loud and clear in his words

    Address of the Prophet—His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.
    (Sunday, May 26, 1844)

    President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.

    God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil—all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people.

    Ran away from Jesus , but never run from Joseph.
    If at age 17 I had heard this back in 1975 i would have put my brakes on as far as joining the Mormon church, yet we trust men , now I trust Jesus, doing that is so much easier , nothing to defend or prove.

  25. Rick B says:

    I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.

    So JS did more than Jesus ever did?

    Well FoF, that speaks volumes, and something tells me, that wont bother you at all. well JS is not going to enjoy a Christless eterinty.

  26. MJP says:

    Old Man, perhaps you forget Faithoffather’s opinion of ex members, especially those who come to Christ later. He’s not very fond of them and thinks very little of them. They are bitter and are not well educated, in his words.

    FoF, I suggest you take Jesus seriously. It occurred to me on the way home this afternoon (I’ve been working two jobs this month as I transition to a new one) that the distinction we are discussing demonstrates something we have talked about before: the primacy of Jesus in our faith. Jesus is indeed king to us, above the Bible. I know there are others who may say that I am limiting the Bible, but I am not. The Bible is hugely important, for that is where we learn about God and His Son, and the Holy Spirit. But its not just about the words in a book that make us go. It is a relationship with the living God that makes us go.

    It is this relationship with God that is prime to Christians, not a liturgy of rules and regulations and warnings. It is being in fellowship with Him and living, breathing, and totally submitting our lives to Him that defines Christianity. Whatever stripe of Christian one might be, this will always be true. This, FoF, is hard! But this goal is reached by loving Christ with all our heart above all else, including prophets and our spouses and families.

    That is not what was said in the video, and it is very easy for a child to remember the simple truth that Jesus is our rock in whom we are all saved. No, there was no mention of Jesus’ love and His solid foundation that will not lead people astray. But there was emphasis on agency and doing, coupled with the consequences of not doing.

    Its hard not to view this little example as a snippet of the true Mormonism, where emphasis is put on what is done and what is achieved. The difference with that and the relationship we seek with Christ could not be more apparent.

    I know you won’t see it and claim that by doing you develop a relationship, but why, then, didn’t this guy tell that a relationship is most important, and that is achieved by reading scripture? Its an easy concept to describe, and easy one for a child to understand. Instead, what was presented was nothing more than a guilt trip.

  27. wilburson says:

    Here is what I would like to ask Bednar: Isn’t lieing akin to turning you back to God’s side and stepping off the “pretty carpet”? Hey, Bednar, what do you call it when you and the other 14 men in your “good ol’ boy” network draft a statement like you did about the blacks & the priesthood that is so full of lies and spin that it’s embarassing and should insult anyone who was LDS (like I was) in the 60’s & 70’s.? It’s called OBFUSCATION. (A big word that means – if the dictionary is translated correctly – to confues; to make obscure, dark or unclear etc.) Read their official statement, FOF; it is an outright lie and if you were old enough to remember racists like Joseph Fielding Smith you also know that he believed that what he and others taught about race before 1978 was directly from God and not just “theory” as Bednar and his other rich lawyer friends are now trying to spin it.Your church leaders are masters at this (They must have learned it from Zeezrom).They are liars – there is no other way to say it! Lieing is a sin of COMMISSION and according to the BOM, liars will be THRUST – not pushed; not shoved; but THRUST off the carpet and into Hell. Having said all of that, let me make it clear that I belive the mercy and forgivness of Jesus is fully available to him and the other LDS leaders – I’m just not sure they know they need it. They are proud,dead, unregnerate men; they think very little and make very little of Jesus and they can’t even see it. They walk up to the Cross and look up at Jesus and say “You’re not enough” and they can’t even hear themselves say it. Jesus may be their exemplar and teacher, but He is NOT their Savior – they are acting as their own saviors; they, and everyone who trusts in these leaders and in themselves.

  28. spartacus says:

    Grace beyond resurrection in Mormonism:

    I’ve hypothesized that LDS could try to guides this dimension to their doctrine of grace, especially if they want to downplay the sound of works righteousness. I figured i would most likely hear it from LDS trying to argue that mormonism is Christian. I also figured it would most likely come from converts from Christian backgrounds.

    As i mentioned before, I participate on an LDS members Facebook page add he was running a series of quotes with grace as the theme. I pointed out to him in our discussion of grace beyond resurrection that he had only managed to find two quotes to support this idea in mormonism. One quote (only) from an apostle and one from a BYU professor. I told him this was not impressive especially among ask the quotes that omitted anything like graceful empowerment to do good works.

    In my experiences at LDS sacrament and gospel principles and gospel doctrine and priesthood meetings i haven’t heard anything about empowerment, but only guidance (to do the right thing yourself).

    Maybe we are missing it in some other terms or indirect references (like the apostle’s very indirect reference to Jesus in this object lesson) but can’t say I’ve seen this maybe at all in the Ensign, General Conference, Olds and recent teachings – nothing and scant about graceful empowerment to do good works or live the life God wants us to live.

  29. falcon says:

    Here’s the problem with Mormon deception. They put the name “Jesus Christ” in the title of the church, but this isn’t the “Jesus” of Biblical Christianity as admitted by a former Mormon apostle/prophet. So isn’t this a spirit of deception to use the name of Jesus, Heavenly Father, Holy Ghost and a number of other Christian terms when Mormon proselytizers know it’s not the same meaning? So what type of spirit would drive this? Is it right for those selling and marketing the LDS church not to inform prospects that the LDS church is really not talking about the same God as the God of the Word?
    Joseph Smith founded the religion on a lie, a deception.

  30. PropheticWorship says:

    When I saw this post after a good friend told me about it, I began to cry. How can a person who “claims” to know Jesus personally as a so-called apostle of the Lord be so far from the truth, other than the fact that the so-called truth he teaches is completely false.
    The wonder and power of the Grace of Jesus Christ is so significant and powerful that no matter how far I step off the carpet, I can return to the arms of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am so glad to have left the mormon faith, because since finding Jesus I have never felt so much peace, love and grace. I used to live my life burdened by my failures wondering if I have done enough to go to heaven; but now as a SAVED Christian I have no doubt in my mind.
    I want to leave you with this video that has become one of my favorite on YouTube. It is a musical/play that many youth groups perform. This is how bednar should have taught this youth about how great our God really is!

    http://youtu.be/fwsTUW4fsV4

  31. MistakenTestimony says:

    Joseph Smith,

    You said, “I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVZ3CtsnJjU

  32. MistakenTestimony says:

    And don’t you guys all understand that it is the Scriptures that testify of Joseph Smith from beginning to end? Revelation 14.6, anyone? Clearly Christ is not the thrust of all the Scriptures. Your move, non-LDS Christians. (I’m only kidding)

  33. grindael says:

    What struck me about the video is that the kid asked him a simple question, how do you start reading the scriptures again after you have stopped. The Mormon “apostle” then added a whole bunch of other things that he said the kid was supposedly doing, like being mean to his siblings, etc. How does that answer the question? He got into the “devil’s territory” by not doing the things (plural all of a sudden) that he was “supposed to do”. What THINGS? The ones that Bednar invented? The kid was just asking how do you get back to reading the scriptures when you stop. Bednar ASSUMES that the kid was not praying, but the kid said nothing about not praying. Bednar then says that the kid should simply “choose the right”. But the kid didn’t say that he was not reading the scriptures because he wanted to do something wrong, or because he was doing something wrong. He could have been bored with them, not understood them, etc. Bednar never even asked him WHY he was not reading them.

    Instead he is told that he is in the devil’s territory and that he had committed some kind of sin for not doing so. Is it a SIN to not read the scriptures? What sin is that? This kid was looking for a simple answer on how to rekindle his interest in the scriptures. Instead of answering it, Bednar told him he was sinning, and made up a whole bunch of sins that the kid supposedly committed that got him into “devil’s territory”.

    Instead of telling him how interesting they are, how they contain fascinating stories of faith and inspiration, and the life of our Lord and Saviour, instead he tries to guilt the kid into reading them. I too find this video troubling. It’s not positive, but negative. Not impressed at all.

  34. faithoffathers says:

    This is fantastic. From a short video of an object lesson about reading the scriptures, this thread has disintegrated into random topics including:

    Joseph Smith seeking treasure
    Latter-day Saints seeing spirits of dead individuals
    Millions of gods in the LDS religion
    A connection between the temple and Masonic rituals
    The arrogance and pride of Joseph Smith
    Blacks and the Priesthood
    The lack of grace in the LDS doctrine

    Like I have said so many times before- it really is entertaining to see the fit-like mentality among our critics. Within these topics, there is certainly “low-hanging fruit” we can discuss. In other words, you guys are so ridiculously wrong, it is fairly easy to demonstrate the falsehoods you rattle off like talking points.

    First- Joseph Smith’s claim about maintaining a church longer than Jesus did. You may not understand this, but he was employing a literary tool and appealed to the apostle Paul in doing so. At least Ironman included more of the context of Joseph’s statement than critics usually do.

    Consider his statement, “”I do not think there have been many good men on the earth since the days of Adam; but there was one good man and his name was Jesus. Many persons think a prophet must be a great deal better than anybody else….I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.”

    The talk that Joseph gave in which he is quoted as saying he has done more than Christ is based upon the following passage from 2 Corinthians, “Again I say, let no one think me foolish; but if you do, receive me even as foolish, that I also may boast a little. That which I am speaking, I am not speaking it as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence of boasting. Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also. For you, being so wise, bear the foolish gladly.”

    Paul then boasts and makes claims to make himself look foolish- all for a reason. And Joseph did the same thing. Joseph quotes Paul above and then boasts as he did- all to make a point, just as Paul did. But I understand that the critics 1) probably cannot understand this and 2) even if they did, they will refuse to admit this. But at least it has been explained a bit to you.

    The other “low hanging fruit” is the ridiculous claim about grace only having a role in the resurrection according to our doctrine. I don’t think there is anything else that so quickly demonstrates how little you guys know about the church and its doctrine. But here are some quotations on grace from our canon and our leaders:

    From the Book of Mormon
    “And behold how great the covenants of the Lord, and how great his condescensions unto the children of men; and because of his greatness, and his grace and mercy, he has promised unto us that our seed shall not utterly be destroyed, according to the flesh, but that he would preserve them; and in future generations they shall become a righteous branch unto the house of Israel.” 2 Nephi 9:53

    “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine.” 2 Nephi 10:24-25

    “Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.” Jacob 4:7

    “And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.” Mosiah 18:26

    “Yea, and all their priests and teachers should labor with their own hands for their support, in all cases save it were in sickness, or in much want; and doing these things, they did abound in the grace of God.” Mosiah 27:5

    “I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” Ether 12:27

    “And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace, that they might have charity” Ether 12:36

    “And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.” Ether 12:41

    “And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.”Moroni 7:2

    “I am mindful of you always in my prayers, continually praying unto God the Father in the name of his Holy Child, Jesus, that he, through his infinite goodness and grace, will keep you through the endurance of faith on his name to the end.” Moroni 8:3

    “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot” Moroni 10:32-33

    From the Apostles and leaders:
    David Bednar: “In the Bible Dictionary we learn that the word grace frequently is used in the scriptures to connote a strengthening or enabling power: “The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ. “… It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means.” Oct 2004

    Gene R. Cook: “I testify that the Lord, through His grace, can continually assist us in our daily lives and in our physical and mental sickness, pain, transgressions, and even in all of our infirmities.”

    D. Todd Christoffersen: “As we reflect on these examples and other scriptures, it becomes clear that spiritual rebirth originates with faith in Jesus Christ, by whose grace we are changed. More specifically, it is faith in Christ as the Atoning One,the Redeemer, who can cleanse from sin and make holy (see Mosiah 4:2–3). I testify that as you continue in the path of spiritual rebirth, the atoning grace of Jesus Christ will take away your sins and the stain of those sins in you, temptations will lose their appeal, and through Christ you will become holy, as He and our Father are holy.” April 2008

    “Repentance exists as an option only because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It is His infinite sacrifice that “bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance” (Alma 34:15). Repentance is the necessary condition, and the grace of Christ is the power by which “mercy can satisfy the demands of justice” (Alma 34:16). Our witness is this: “We know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; “And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength” (D&C 20:30–31). Oct 2011

    “As I have agonized in recent hours over the acceptability and adequacy of my offering upon the altar of him who gave his all, it has come to me that I must focus outwardly, that as I seek the interest of his flock and lose myself in their service, his grace shall be sufficient for me. I so commit myself unreservedly. I readily attest to the reality and greatness of our God, to his goodness and grace, to his justice and mercy, to the truth of his gospel and the power of his priesthood and the authenticity of the calling of his latter-day seers. At the outset of this ministry, I acknowledge that anything I may achieve will be by virtue of the power and the grace and the gift of God.” April 1993

    Thomas S. Monson: “Should there be anyone who feels he is too weak to change the onward and downward course of his life, or should there be those who fail to resolve to do better because of that greatest of fears—the fear of failure—there is no more comforting assurance to be had than these words of the Lord: “My grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” Oct 1999

    Kent Richards: ““Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Sometimes in the depth of pain, we are tempted to ask, “Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there?”7 I testify the answer is yes, there is a physician. The Atonement of Jesus Christ covers all these conditions and purposes of mortality. April 2011

    From LDS.org:
    “Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.”

    “Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8-10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God.”

    “The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).”

    I could go on and on. But this should suffice for reasonable people. At this point, such reasonable people would admit that they were wrong and possibly even apologize. But I am not holding my breath.

  35. MJP says:

    Oh, FoF

    Do you care to comment on the ease with which Bednar could have told the child to look toward Christ? You’ve skipped over that, and the list you now provide is irrelevant.

    And your list shows that you believe Christ helps people become better men and women, but it does not show that grace alone gets you saved, and let’s be sure to define what salvation means here, OK?

    Once again, we see an example of how LDS can craft a presentation that skips over or manipulates certain aspects of their faith.

  36. MJP says:

    Let me change a sentence in the above: I stated that nowhere in the quotes does it state that grace alone gets you saved. While true, my intent is to show that nowhere in the quotes does it say that grace gets you saved, only that it makes men better. The quotes show that grace is important to them, but nowhere is salvation mentioned.

  37. Rick B says:

    Fof,
    You leave that really long reply, but sadly and no real surprise, you both refuse and cannot answer a simple question.

    When God said there are no other gods, did he speak the truth or lie?

    If he spoke the truth, the the trinity is real, and Mormonism is false. If God lied or is wrong, then you need to prove it and back it up. Thats going to be very hard to do.

    Now before you cry and say, this topic is not about the trinity, let me remind you, you first brought it up on this topic.

    Also your refusal to answer should tell all lurkers everything they nedd to know about you and Mormonism.

  38. faithoffathers says:

    MJP-

    The quotations I posted, which are certainly not exhaustive, state the following roles of grace:

    1. Saved by grace
    2. Saved from sin by grace
    3. It is by grace that one enters the Kingdom of God
    4. It is by grace that we have hope and faith and can do miracles
    5. It is by grace that we can have the Holy Spirit with us
    6. It is by grace that we can obtain the knowledge of God
    7. It is by grace that we can teach with power
    8. It is by grace that we can overcome weaknesses and sins
    9. It is by grace that we can have charity
    10. It is by grace that God can be with us
    11. It was by grace that Mormon was allowed to speak to his people
    12. It is by grace that we can have faith and endure to the end
    13. It is by grace that we can be perfect in Christ
    14. We are sanctified through grace, through the shedding of the blood of Christ
    15. We are justified through grace
    16. It is by grace that we receive a remission of our sins
    17. It is through grace that we become holy
    18. It is through grace that we receive help and strength from God
    19. It is through grace that we can do good works
    20. It is through grace that we can overcome “physical and mental sickness, pain, and transgressions”
    21. It is through grace that we have spiritual rebirth
    22. It is by grace that we are cleansed from sin
    23. It is through grace that temptations can lose their appeal to us
    24. Repentance is possible because of grace
    25. All real achievements are a result of grace
    26. We receive mercy through grace
    27. It is through grace that we are saved from spiritual death- which is separation from God. In other words, it is through grace that we are enabled to live in God’s presence some day.

    You just keep waving your hand in a big way. And that is dishonest and/or sloppy. And as you misrepresent our doctrine and faith, just realize that you are accountable for bearing false witness.

    You asked, “Do you care to comment on the ease with which Bednar could have told the child to look toward Christ?”

    Sure. I quote from Elder Bednar. He first pointed toward the area representing the Lord’s territory in his object lesson and said, “this is the Lord’s territory.” Then he said, “turn your back on the devil’s territory… Every time you read your scriptures, you can take another step deeper into the safety of the Lord’s territory. Every time you say a meaningful prayer, you can go deeper into the safety of the Lord’s territory…..(pointing back to the ‘devil’s territory), I don’t want to see what’s over there. Can you think of other things that could help us go deeper into this territory (the Lord’s territory)? What is it that keeps you going in this direction (into the Lord’s territory)?

    You ask why Bednar did not tell “the child to look toward Christ.” Are you kidding? He repeated the counsel to look toward “the Lord’s territory” over and over. He told the child not even to look into the Lord’s territory. He physically directed the body of the boy toward “the Lord’s territory” and explained what it was. He did not use the name Jesus Christ. But guess what? “Lord” is a reference to Christ. So your criticism is extremely inaccurate and wrong. Elder Bednar repeatedly directed the child physically and mentally toward “the Lord’s territory.” If that is not directing him toward Christ, I really don’t know what is.

    Elder Bednar explained that the child should not just go to church, but he should pay attention and have his heart where it should be. In other words, not just go through the motions, but really seek the Lord. Similarly, he alluded to the importance of “meaningful” prayer, not just going through the motions.

    I am again reminded of the sermon on the mount and Christ’s statement that, “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man who built his house upon a rock……And whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them not shall be likened unto a foolish man who built his house upon a sand……And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

    The same criticisms could be leveled against Christ Himself and that great sermon. You guys are making Elder Bednar an “offender for a word” without cause or reason.

    RickB- my comment was that nobody has been willing or able to explain the trinity doctrine. You guys nitpick and whine about our faith and doctrine and how we represent it. But still, nobody can explain to me what the trinity is. You keep repeating what it isn’t and describing it from a vague distance.

  39. Old man says:

    Sorry to go off topic but I believe the following needs to be said.

    FofF said:
    RickB- my comment was that nobody has been willing or able to explain the trinity doctrine. You guys nitpick and whine about our faith and doctrine and how we represent it. But still, nobody can explain to me what the trinity is.

    Everyone here is willing to explain it but no one can in human terms because it is outside the realm of human understanding. Gods word tells us something about the divine nature that we choose to call the Trinity, the Bible declares it emphatically & we accept it because it is Gods word, yet you refuse to accept what God has shown simply because YOU, a mere man, cannot understand it!
    Mormons continually talk about faith, you tell those in your church who cannot understand Mormon doctrine that they must have faith even as you are telling them things that defy all common sense & logic, things that YOU CANNOT explain concerning your own beliefs. Now here you are telling us that when confronted by the clear message of scripture you must reject it because you cannot understand it.
    In other words you are saying that even if Mormon doctrine makes no sense at all we must still accept it because Joseph Smith said it is so, but, when we tell you that God, Christ & His apostles declare the Trinity (not the word, the doctrine) to be a fact, it cannot be accepted because Joseph Smith was always right & everything at variance with his message, including Gods word, has to be wrong.

    It must be clear to everyone by now that your so-called faith is not in Christ at all but in a false prophet going by the name of Joseph Smith.

  40. Rick B says:

    So fof, simply put, you both cannot answer my simple question and unable to do it, yet won’t say that, or be that honest, so you avoid it. Is that right.

  41. MJP says:

    No, FoF, I see one quote, 2 Nep. 10:24-25 that talks about being saved by grace. Beyond that I see a host of quotes discussing how grace enables us to move closer to God. These others do not mention salvation.

    As to the video, why didn’t he use Jesus’ name? Why did he put all the onus on the boy to turn away from the devil’s territory and turn to the lord’s territory? These questions get to the precise point that Jesus is not the focus, and it furthers the notion that its all about personal effort rather than grace that saves.

    Now, the trinity has been explained more in the previous thread on it. I even gave a very quick and simple definition, in my own words. I’ll give it again: God is three-in-one, wherein God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all encompass one God in fullness and unity and essence, yet they are all separate entities. You asked what co-substantial means, and I gave you a definition of that term, too. I don’t think you have read it.

    I see that you attempt to address my questions, but you really have not done so in a meaningful way. I could go through each quote and decipher what is said, but that would be fruitless as far as I can tell because you see salvation when I see nothing more than effort making a good person. My concerns about the video remain. And you’ve yet to give you’re own interpretation on the Trinity.

  42. grindael says:

    my comment was that nobody has been willing or able to explain the trinity doctrine. You guys nitpick and whine about our faith and doctrine and how we represent it. But still, nobody can explain to me what the trinity is. You keep repeating what it isn’t and describing it from a vague distance.

    If you explain where the FIRST Mormon God came from FOF, I’ll be happy to explain the Trinity. What say? Or can’t you explain how the First Mormon God came to be a God. This should be easy for you. Who created him? If he created himself, then why do all the other Mormon Gods need to go through some kind of mortal existence? Please enlighten us on how Joseph Smith could say that Every son ALWAYS had a father, yet how did the FIRST God get to be a God? This should be a slam dunk for why everyone should believe in the Mormon concept of God. Why are you silent on this?

    As for Grace, I’ve already answered this more than adequately and you abandoned that thread. But let’s revisit for a moment. In one of your posts from way back then, you quoted the story told by Boyd Packer. This story was also quoted by Gerald N. Lund, in his article, Salvation: By Grace or by Works? found at lds.org. After giving all the reasons that you mention FOF, his conclusion was this:

    The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

    And then we have these quotes that back this up:

    “There will be a General Salvation for all in the sense in which that term is generally used, but salvation, meaning resurrection, is not exaltation” (Stephen L. Richards, Contributions of Joseph Smith, LDS tract, p.5).

    The “general salvation” comes because of the atonement of Christ. That means that if you do nothing at all, you are still “saved” and “resurrected”. You can murder people and still be “saved” in the “telestial kingdom”, which according to Jo Smith is so awesome that it makes this place look horrible. That is Mormon “salvation”.

    All men are saved by grace alone without any act on their part, meaning they are resurrected” (Bruce McConkie, What Mormons Think of Christ”, LDS tract, p.28).

    “The meanest sinner will find some place in the heavenly realm…In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no Hell. All will find a measure of salvation” (John Widtsoe, Joseph Smith-Seeker After Truth, p.177-178, 1951).

    That is Mormon “salvation” folks. But it’s not being with God (or exaltation). That you must earn.

    “for we know that is is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do” (Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 25:23).

    “…redemption from PERSONAL SINS can only be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel, and a life of good works” (James Talmage, in A Study of the Articles of Faith).

    Spencer Kimball wrote,

    however powerful the saving grace of Christ, it brings exaltation to no man who does not comply with the works of the gospel” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 207); “Each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pg. 153); “living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation…trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.164-165, 354-355).

    Harold B. Lee said in Conference,

    “But all of these blessings are ours on one condition, and this is spoken of by Nephi, when he said: For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, [but mark you this condition,] after all we can do” (Harold B. Lee, Conference Reports, April 1956, p.111. Brackets and italics in original).

    That is CONDITIONAL GRACE, Grace based on works. The Bruce said,

    None shall receive eternal life save it be those who keep the commandments of the Lord and are entitled thus to enter into his presence(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation: Sermons and Writings of Joseph Fielding Smith, ed. Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956), 2:4)

    Kimball again,

    One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.( Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft Inc., 1972),206-207)

    lds.org,

    Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who OBEY His gospel [made up of required works] will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

    Once again, there is general “salvation” or RESURRECTION because of the Atonement of Christ, and EXALTATION, earned by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, as Gerald Lund told us. But Paul says that there is NOTHING AT ALL that we can do to EARN IT. No requirements at all to earn God’s Grace. That is because once you accept Christ and are Born of the Spirit, His Grace is sufficient, because you have become a new creature. If you listen to Lund, he says that every time you SIN, you get further from God. He also says, “our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives.” But Paul says,

    14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7)

    There are no “rules” and “regulations” that can help with this. None. They don’t work. Therefore, our “works” do not save us. It is the Holy Spirit of God that transforms us into New Creatures that does. And if we do sin, (which we do because we are mortal) then, as Paul says, “Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord.” That GRACE, is a FREE GIFT that works throughout our lives. But for Mormons, it is only free to atone for the Sin of Adam. Every other sin must be atoned for BY THE INDIVIDUAL. That is why Mormonism taught Blood Atonement. That is why Mormonism requires rules and regulations. As Spencer Kimball said,

    “living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation…trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentence when one merely tries to abandon sin”

    This is exactly the opposite of what Paul taught. Paul taught you cannot EVER abandon sin. It will always reign in our mortal bodies. But do we keep on sinning because of the Grace of Jesus? Of course not. We do not, because we are transformed by God to the renewing of our minds, and the Grace of God delivers us through Jesus Christ.

  43. grindael says:

    just realize that you are accountable for bearing false witness.

    Actually it is FOF that is bearing false witness, because Mormons believed in the Trinity when the Book of Mormon was published. Also, the Book of Mormon was written BEFORE Jo had “perfected” his theology and added a plethora of rules and regulations to the church. So simply quoting from the Book of Mormon is disingenuous, as is disregarding the many, many quotes that say that Mormon Grace is only a RESURRECTION and that you must EARN your exaltation, meaning that personal sin is not atoned for, and the Grace of God does not apply to it if you want more than “general salvation” or a resurrection in a kingdom of glory where you will have no increase, and only be a servant for eternity.

  44. faithoffathers says:

    grindael- yes. You subscribe to the easy-believism gospel that resembles socialism more than the gospel of Christ. We believe we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. As I have shown in our scriptures, the grace of Christ is inherent and essential for every one of those things. You believe that mental conformity- the belief that Jesus is Savior- is all that is required for instant eternal salvation. We believe that doing what Christ instructed us to do is inherent in belief. He was the Great Physician. And a person who is healed by a physician, or by a physician, does as the physician instructs or prescribes. But your theology doesn’t account for that. According to you, a person only needs to visit a doctor in his or her office and presto!!!! they are healed.

    Yes- all will be resurrected as a result of grace. But grace is also the power by which sins are forgiven, sanctification and justification occurs, and entrance into God’s Kingdom occurs. Yes- effort is required. But it is only through grace that these things happen.

    According to our doctrine, the universal resurrection is guaranteed because Christ overcame death and rose from the grave after His resurrection. So- what about all the suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane in which we believe He bled from every pore, His scourging and trial, and the recurrent agony on the cross (which we believe was equivalent to the pain in the garden)- what role does all that suffering on the part of Christ play in our doctrine? Do we just think He suffered infinitely for the heck of it? Of course not. The grace that saves us from sin, pain- mental, physical, and spiritual, and all else I listed above is entirely the result of that infinite and eternal suffering on His part.

    If what you are arguing is correct, than all of Christ’s suffering that we believe He endured (which, by the way, we believe He endured infinitely more than any other belief system does) does not make sense. If you are consistent, you will wave your hand as you did before and just say- “well, your doctrine doesn’t make sense anyway.” And that is an astonishingly obtuse and unintelligent response.

    I don’t know what has happened in your life to cause you to go on and promote such a clearly dishonest campaign against us and our doctrine. But I have absolutely no respect for people who do this type of thing- whether in religion, politics, or any other human endeavor. Ultimately, I am perfectly happy to leave it to the Lord to manage. But in your selective clip and pastes, you absolutely shred any representation of my faith and religion. Hope that feels good.

  45. falcon says:

    FOF,
    Again you go off on some long cut and paste rant but the fact remains that as a Mormon you have to “earn” your reward. That reward is to become a god. This is another gospel and the apostle Paul clearly states in the opening verses of Galatians that even if an angel from heaven should preach another gospel……………..well you read it and you will clearly see what spirit you are under.
    Smith told a tale about an angel appearing to him and sending him on one of his treasure hunts but this time instead of trying to find Captain Kidd’s gold buried in the ground by the use of his excellent magic rock, Smith said he found these awesome gold plates. Interestingly enough, this spirit appearance led Smith eventually to declare another gospel. The problem is that this restored gospel that Smith proclaimed is nothing like the gospel that the apostle Paul received directly through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
    So there you have it FOF. You and your religion are under a demonic spirit because the gospel you embrace and teach doesn’t not recognize the Living God.
    Instead we have a gospel where men become gods through their own efforts negating Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. In fact, the religion that you follow guided by this false spirit, goes so far as to deny the cross of Christ saying that the atonement took place some where else.
    This is bad business FOF. When you attempt these mega-posts basically what you are doing is compounding your error. I don’t know if I’ve ever come across someone as diluted as you but my guess is that Mormonism has a ton of them.

  46. RikkiJ says:

    @FaithofFathers

    Kudos to you on bearing with such tough criticism. I may not agree with what you believe, but I admire your persistence under fire.

  47. RikkiJ says:

    @Faithoffathers

    “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

    “Quote: ‘Yes- all will be resurrected as a result of grace…'”

    Resurrection to life can be a result of grace, but resurrection to judgment is not a result of grace, is it faithoffathers?

  48. grindael says:

    grindael- yes. You subscribe to the easy-believism gospel that resembles socialism more than the gospel of Christ. We believe we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized for remission of sins, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. As I have shown in our scriptures, the grace of Christ is inherent and essential for every one of those things. You believe that mental conformity- the belief that Jesus is Savior- is all that is required for instant eternal salvation. We believe that doing what Christ instructed us to do is inherent in belief. He was the Great Physician. And a person who is healed by a physician, or by a physician, does as the physician instructs or prescribes. But your theology doesn’t account for that. According to you, a person only needs to visit a doctor in his or her office and presto!!!! they are healed.

    Gee FOF, you are getting quite bitter. Can’t help yourself, can you? This usually occurs when someone has been backed up into a corner and are feeling threatened. Unfortunately, you have not proven anything from your scriptures, because your interpretation frankly, doesn’t matter. What matters is the interpretation of those authorized to do so, which I have quoted frequently, and without any distortion. Funny that you can’t take the quotes individually and tell me EXACTLY what each one means. Why not FOF?

    As for the Grace of Christ being “essential” to a whole plethora of things, why, it only stands to reason that if Christ did not Atone for the sin of Adam, no one would be saved at all. So in that sense yes, it was essential for everything you say. BUT… and this echo’s Harold B. Lee who said “but mark you this CONDITION”, the Grace of Christ does not work ONLY on the Condition that one performs “righteous works”. It is in so many quotes that I don’t know how you can say with a straight face (so to speak) that I’m distorting anything. And your Doctor analogy is simply silly, because you have nothing to back up your wrongheaded view of Mormon Doctrine.

    Yes- all will be resurrected as a result of grace. But grace is also the power by which sins are forgiven, sanctification and justification occurs, and entrance into God’s Kingdom occurs. Yes- effort is required. But it is only through grace that these things happen.

    But the GRACE IS ONLY ACTIVIATED IF ONE DOES THE GOOD WORKS. duh. It is not then, a FREE GIFT, is it? Mormons pay a price for Jesus Grace. And I only subscribe to the gospel that Jesus and His apostles preached in the Bible. For the true followers of Christ, his yoke is LIGHT, not the burden that is obviously strangling you to death by way of Mormon works. And if what you say is so, then how do you explain this?

    LDS Bible Dictionary: “This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation AFTER they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice WITHOUT TOTAL EFFORT on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO’ (2 Nephi 25:23).”

    In the Bible, it is the Holy Spirit that helps us in our weakness. (Romans 8:26). How does Grace help you to become stronger, when you are weak and need strength? That is where the quote I gave from Paul (in an earlier post) comes into play. But in Mormonism, if you are sinning (as Paul said he was) then Grace is no good to you, because it only works if you are RIGHTEOUS, as Gerald Lund told us:

    The atoning power of God unto salvation is a freely available gift from him—but our works of righteousness are essential to bring the gift into power in our lives. Sin brings alienation from God. The more we sin, the greater the alienation and the more difficult it becomes to effectively tap the power of God, which alone is sufficient to save us from our sins.

    This is exactly the opposite (as I said before) of what Paul preached:

    14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through [THE GRACE OF] Jesus Christ our Lord! (Romans 7)

    As for easy-believism, [sic] I’ll take that as a compliment:

    28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

    According to our doctrine, the universal resurrection is guaranteed because Christ overcame death and rose from the grave after His resurrection. So- what about all the suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane in which we believe He bled from every pore, His scourging and trial, and the recurrent agony on the cross (which we believe was equivalent to the pain in the garden)- what role does all that suffering on the part of Christ play in our doctrine? Do we just think He suffered infinitely for the heck of it? Of course not. The grace that saves us from sin, pain- mental, physical, and spiritual, and all else I listed above is entirely the result of that infinite and eternal suffering on His part.

    Who said he bled from every pore? Luke said he sweat was LIKE drops of blood, not actual blood. Did Jesus then run around with blood soaked clothes when he went before the High Priest. Funny that no one mentions that. Aside from that, Christ gave his life on the cross for us. He suffered and died for us, but his suffering “infinitely”, is just a Jo Smith gloss. (Google “Infinite Atonement” and see what pops up. It’s all Mormon) How did Jesus suffer “eternally”? Do you even know what you are saying? Sometimes I just have to shake my head at Mormon silliness.

    In the Garden, Jesus cast Himself to the ground, agonizing in prayer. Something terrible was going to happen. He knew all that lay before him, the scourging, the cross. But did Jesus become infected with everyone’s sins and suffer as the sinner would? That makes no sense because Jesus was a sin offering, an offering that Peter says was “a lamb without blemish and without defect.” (1 Peter 1:19) He didn’t become some receptacle for everyone’s dirty and ugly sins that the Father could not stand to look upon. The Father never forsook his Son. He was right there with him until the very end as he is right here with us everyday, whether we sin or not. “I WILL NEVER FORSAKE YOU”.

    “You [disciples] will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.” (John 16:32)

    Does this lessen his sacrifice? Not one little bit. It makes it all the more poignant. Jeremiah wrote, “Our fathers sinned, and are not; and we have borne their iniquities” (Lam. 5:7). Did they literally take upon themselves the sins of their fathers? No.

    “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world,” (1 John 2:2).

    A propitiation is a sacrifice that turns away wrath. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was just such a propitiation. It was on the cross where Jesus bore our sins (1 Pet. 2:24) where he became a propitiation, the sacrifice for our sins. Notice that the sacrifice on the cross is a public event and it is this public display where propitiation occurred: “whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith,” (Rom. 3:25). In the Garden of Gethsemane, what Jesus experienced was not a public display. Therefore, the sacrifice of redemption, where Jesus bore our sins as the propitiation, did not occur in the Garden of Gethsemane, but in the public display of the cross. When we see the term propitiation referred to in Scripture, we know it is referring to the sacrifice on the cross. He bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), as a publicly displayed sacrifice (Rom. 3:25) by which we are cleansed from our sins (1 John 1:7). (Thanks to Matt Slick for some of this)

    If what you are arguing is correct, than all of Christ’s suffering that we believe He endured (which, by the way, we believe He endured infinitely more than any other belief system does) does not make sense. If you are consistent, you will wave your hand as you did before and just say- “well, your doctrine doesn’t make sense anyway.” And that is an astonishingly obtuse and unintelligent response.

    Nah, nah, nah, we believe he suffered more than you do. How childish. And there you go putting responses in my mouth and then answering them. Been taking arrogance lessons, FOF? The doctrine makes perfect sense to your Mormon “authorities” who I quote. You just don’t like the fact that I can do it, over and over again. You can’t handle that. You keep wondering to yourself, ‘Where does he find these quotes?’ I actually have READ what I quote, unlike you. Mormon Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, all the sin that the world would have inherited because of the transgression of Adam. But that ONLY buys them a RESURRECTION in Mormonism.

    I don’t know what has happened in your life to cause you to go on and promote such a clearly dishonest campaign against us and our doctrine. But I have absolutely no respect for people who do this type of thing- whether in religion, politics, or any other human endeavor. Ultimately, I am perfectly happy to leave it to the Lord to manage. But in your selective clip and pastes, you absolutely shred any representation of my faith and religion. Hope that feels good.

    What happened in your life, FOF that you have to come here to this blog and misrepresent Mormonism? I’m only giving the facts. You are the one reading dishonesty into it. Many, many people agree with how it really is and leave the Church. I don’t force my views down their throats, they see it for themselves. So don’t pontificate to me. It is obvious you have no respect for anyone who is a critic of Mormonism. It shows in your posts here. You don’t like to be corrected. You want to be an authority, but you are not. You have even misquoted the Book of Mormon to make some of your pathetic points. I call that dishonest.

    You don’t tell me why my quotes are “dishonest”, because you can’t. That is why you are so bitter. I feel sorry for you FOF. You know, I’ve had conversations and am friends with many Mormons. But the difference between them and you, is that you are bitter and vindictive and have a feeble understanding of Mormon History and Doctrine. Instead of ONCE, EVER, conceding that you might be wrong, you are NEVER wrong, even when proved by the facts. You don’t like me, because I keep showing that you are. Sad to be you. So sad. Really. And when all else fails, try to psychoanalyze. I always enjoy that. Keep trying, genius. I’ll let you know if you get close.

    And I notice that you STILL have not answered the question about the FIRST Mormon God. Why not FOF? You can blast the Trinity Doctrine for being unexplainable, but you can’t explain your own Gods. I call that hypocrisy.

  49. fifth monarchy man says:

    Hey FOF,

    But in your selective clip and pastes, you absolutely shred any representation of my faith and religion. Hope that feels good.

    I say,

    I find this to be the most difficult part about discussions with LDS. I just have no idea what is official teaching. With folks from my tradition it is an easy question we are bound by scripture and scripture alone if it’s not in the Bible it is not binding on us full stop.

    For Mormons it is much more complicated because of your expanded cannon and living revelation. How can I know that your cut and paste is the true story and grindael’s is false witness? It’s madding some times. Perhaps you could provide an official list of LDS sources that are binding on you and those that are not.

    As far as the charge of easy believinsm if your critics are not charging you with easy believism you are not getting the Gospel right (Romans 3:8) and it is often the charge itself that convicts the critic in God’s eyes.

    There truly are people who pervert God’s grace into sensuality (Jude:4). But the way to avoid such error is not to condition Grace on works of obedience but to “keep yourselves in the love of God and wait on the mercy of the Lord” (Jude:21).

    It’s a cool fact that according to scripture the remedy for believing in a “cheap grace” is not our works but to focus all the more on the real thing.

    peace

  50. Rick B says:

    Fof,
    I see you still cannot answer my question. But that’s good that you cannot, I see it as a win/win for me.

    Lurkers who are thinking if joining the lds church, or mormons looking to leave can see an lds apologist who acts as if he is smarter than the lds prophets cannot answer simple questions, helps show how clueless and wrong you really are.

    But also, I do use these questions that you guys refuse to answer when talking with lds who knock on my door. It really challenges them to think and question what they believe, so keep up the good work of dodging questions.

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