A Counter-Creed to “Practical Mormonism Atheism”

Practical Mormon Atheism The Contraries
1 Even if Mormonism is false, it is still worth believing and ought not be refuted. Mormonism, if false, ought not be “left alone”, but ought to be refuted and engaged and deconstructed.
2 Faith is ultimately irrational. Faith is partly but vitally rooted in evidence that can be publicly scrutinized.
3 Even if you don’t believe in God, you should still stay on the membership rolls and consider yourself a Mormon. Those who turn atheist can keep attending as welcomed guests, but ought not attend as members, and ought not self-identify as a member of any religion they no longer believe in.
4 If the LDS Church isn’t true, there is no God. There are plenty of reasons to believe in a first, Most High, absolutely ultimate God outside of Mormonism.
5 How you live your life is more important than what you believe. Beliefs are primary and behavior is secondary, because the only behavior that matters is that which flows from true and right belief.
6 I can’t believe in a God who demands worship. God is a jealous God who demands that he be praised and worshipped as the best of all beings, and will harshly punish those who refuse to worship him.
7 It doesn’t matter if it’s true. What matters is whether it is official. “Non-official” teachings of our tradition, culture, literature, and institution ought to be scrutinized.
8 I proudly mentally disassociate from the content and implications of my belief system. We love systematic, integrated theology, and thinking through the implications of our worldview.
9 The Church is true. Even if I don’t believe this or basically understand it, I can bear testimony of it. We insist that neither we nor our children bear such testimony until we basically understand and believe what this means.
10 There was a conspiracy to fundamentally corrupt the Bible. It is untrustworthy and we look elsewhere for truth. We trust the Bible to not have been fundamentally corrupted, we encourage the study of original Biblical languages, and we value exegesis and examine the teachings of our leaders against the most probable original meaning of the text.
11 Apart from Mormonism, I have no good reasons to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Outside of Mormonism there are good reasons to believe in the resurrection of Jesus.
12 The existence of my personhood is not owing to any god. My personhood is not co-eternal with God or any other intelligences, rather God himself created my essential personhood at a point in time.
13 Everything is matter and nothing is immaterial. Not everything is composed of matter. Some things are immaterial spirit.
14 There is no ultimate personal being who is the ground of all other being. There is an ultimate being from whom absolutely all other things (not to be relativized to one generation of the gods) come.
15 There is no first cause. There is a first cause.
16 There are impersonal eternal laws that govern everything. All eternal laws come from an ultimate personal being.


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88 Responses to A Counter-Creed to “Practical Mormonism Atheism”

  1. falcon says:

    FOF wrote:

    “That being said, I do believe it is important to study and learn everything we can about Christ, His nature, His relationship to the Father, etc.”

    And where exactly are you getting this information? From what I gather, you’re getting it from the guys you call Mormon prophets. This is your source? The guys were/are total nimrods and you’re a fool for following them.
    Don’t come here talking about grace and works. Your reference point is a cult that has a different god, a different Jesus and a totally different plan of salvation. So anything you say on the matter is based on the context of an aberrant religious sect that bears no resemblance to Christianity.
    In the program you’ve signed on to there are two different levels of salvation. There is salvation given to everyone whose ever lived and then there’s the LDS god maker salvation. This includes lots of temple work, callings and perfect adherence to the behavioral expectations set out by the false prophets and teachers.
    So context is important. We really have nothing to discuss with you regarding these things unless it is to unmask the false religious cult of which you are putting your hope and trust and that of your family.

  2. cattyjane says:

    Ok. I have to ask because it was brought up in a previous comment. Where do you see peter and paul practicing the mormon temple ordinances? I know the observed the feasts even after the death of Messiah, ie passover, feast of tabernacles etc, but no where does it talk about sealings and baptisms for the dead. Where do you see that?

  3. jaxi says:


    your comments are so deceptive. You make it seem like it’s all about evangelicals make being saved all about theological understanding and the Mormon god just judges people by them living Christian values. It is such a lie. Mormon God judges you based on whether you participate in ordinances and THEN your works. It doesn’t matter how Christian a person was in Mormonism, what matters is that they get the Mormon ordinances. And guess what you have to do to get the ordinances? You have to have enough of a theological understanding of Mormonism to accept those ordinances. You are so hung up on works. Catholism has works involved. I’m Eastern Orthodox and we get accused of being too work oriented as well. So why Mormonism for you? Put that you believe works are important aside for a second and tell me why is Mormonism the way. I bet it has more to do with that you believe in Mormon authority and the power of the ordinances involved with that authority, not works of Christian kindness. If it was works, there are other Christian groups that believe in the Trinity and are much more works oriented. So stop trying to distract everyone with all your works talk and get to the heart of it. You believe in the mormon authority. And from there try to convince someone that Mormonism is true.

  4. falcon says:

    [Comment snipped by moderator.]

    Rule number one, if someone doesn’t know Jesus why would we have any interest in what he has to say on any topic related to Christianity?
    Jesus isn’t all that important in Mormonism. These folks can do without Jesus but what they can’t do without is the Mormon system that they believe makes men into gods. Jesus is just one of many who learned how to be a god in the Mormon system.

  5. cattyjane says:

    The problem is that the works in the LDS faith are false works. God did not ask us to do those things. We are not allowed to make stuff up and say we are doing these things in the name of God if he did not require it of us. Temple? Really? Haha just makes me laugh. All you mormons go study what a real temple was used for. There is only one place that the temple of God could be built. Why do you think the third temple hasnt been built in Israel? Hello! Big Mosque in the way! There were many synagouges built but during the high holy days people had to journey to the temple. Please open your eyes and see this faith is not a restoration of anything and certainly not anything that had Jewish roots to temple ordinances. Its a huge joke and its outright blasphemy against the true temple ordinances that God commanded in scripture and you will have to answer for it one day.

  6. Rick B says:

    The Bible tells us in the Ten Commandments that we are not to take the Name of God in vain. Now because that is in the ten commandments we believe that is very serious to not take Gods name in vain.

    But the Bible also says this

    Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    Now I want to focus more on this part

    for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

    If God says He places His Word above His Name, then thats pretty serious. Now your thinking why am I saying this, it’s becasue you seem to place more priority upon the fact that we must do what God/Jesus commands, verses getting the facts of who He is correct.

    I know someone, MJP, I believe gave an example of you talking about a horse, but describing an elaphant. But Like I said many times, If you claimed, I know Rick B, were close friends, but then went onto describe me like this, Rick is a black man, he has a huge afro, Likes the color pink, wont say anything that would offend, He loves pop rock music, is not married and has no kids.

    Well Sadly that is not even close to who I am or what I am like, And if you and you false prophets Describe a God and Jesus who is so far from what the Bible says, then no you dont know Jesus and thats why the Bible warns us of false prophets and false Gospels and False Jesus. You simply cannot ignore the fact that the Bible both describes who God/Jesus is, and warns us people will get the facts wrong, then act as if just because you get all this wrong, you still know Him and serve Him because you take things from the Bible that the real Jesus said, and claim, I am doing what Jesus said.

    Thats like taking a Rock or tree, calling it jesus, claiming this Jesus rock, or tree told you to love your neighbors, serve people, love and adore Him. Just because you claim this, rock, tree told you to do these things does not mean your saved.

    Also on the issue of works, You can claim works dont save us and works are not needed in our salvation, but yet if I ask, and I have as well as others, if I said, ok, so if someone is a sinner, claim to deny God, is maybe an atheist, lets even say, a murder like a serial killer and they are on death row, they are about to be excuted and get on last request. They ask for a christain Pastor to share the gospel of Jesus with them.

    the pastor says, Repent of your sins and confess that Jesus is Lord and Saviour and you will be saved. The serial killer does this, then is put to death. Will they die and be saved in Heaven? Last I heard according to LDS, the answer is No!

    Why? Can you answer this?

  7. fifth monarchy man says:

    Hey FOF,

    How is it going? Could you answer some questions for me

    Would you consider pious Muslims to be saved? If not why not? They claim to love and honor Jesus and obey his commands because they assume that his authentic commands are the same as those found in Islam.

    What about Hindus? They revere Jesus as a Guru with a special connection to the divine and they follow their own version of the golden rule

    Similar arguments could be made for all world faiths. All of them place value on virtuous living an all of them claim to hold Jesus in high regard. Would you consider their pious adherents to be Christian?

    Am I correct in describing your position on faith/works is equivalent to “Be a good person and Jesus will save you for your faith.”?

    The Christian position on the other hand is “When the true Biblical Jesus saves you he makes you a good person”

    Do you see the difference ?


  8. Old man says:

    I’m still waiting for simple answers to the questions I asked FofF on April 10, at 3:27am but I don’t think I’ll be getting them any time soon.

    There’s nothing complicated about saving faith, becoming a new creation & doing good works, that’s the scriptural order of things in spite of the convoluted Mormon explanations we’re used to seeing in here. Faith comes first & it’s faith that saves. Good works are the PRODUCT of salvation, NOT the means. Why is that so hard to understand?

    Falcon mentioned blowing smoke so perhaps if those questions were answered the air might be cleared & we would know where FofF stands, because at the moment, as jaxi implied, he’s using a lot of words to say nothing meaningful.

    “All you mormons go study what a real temple was used for……….”

    Exactly right. 🙂

  9. grindael says:

    In a post above, I stated that “Christ never drew strict theological or intellectual boundaries between those who are saved and those who are not outside of believing on Him enough to do what He said.” In other words, the important test is whether we have enough of the practical belief in Christ to do what He says. The two really cannot be separated. A person cannot say they believe in Christ if he or she does not follow Him in behavior. I have been saying this for a long, long time here.

    What comes first though, the BEHAVIOR? No, the BELIEF. This is so very simple, but FOF acts like all that we say is we ONLY need to BELIEVE and then act any way we want. This is ludicrous, and he has been here long enough to know better. We offer the proof that his “gospel” is full of forced regulations and that your works save you, while all FOF can do to prove what he says is make up one false dichotomy after another, with no proof and no quotes.

    What FOF doesn’t understand, is the thrust of what Aaron said. He never will, because he can’t grasp the concept of belief first, works secondary as given by the Holy Spirit. And what is “practical belief in Christ”? Who knows? That is simply meaningless gobbledegook. Right after Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount, his disciples asked,

    28… “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” (John 6)

    Didn’t Christ just tell them all, according to FOF? So why did they even ask this question? Because they didn’t really believe in Him yet. What did Jesus say to them?

    29 …“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

    How does this happen? In some “practical” way? (Whatever that is). No.

    35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    Did Jesus tell them to have some “practical belief”? Did he refer to the Sermon on the Mount? NO. He said, you have seen me and seen my works, but you still don’t believe. Very few of those that heard Jesus actually believed in Him. It’s all about doing the WILL OF GOD, not obeying rules and regulations. That comes BY SPIRIT, not BY “practical” LETTER. The teachings of Jesus are simply words on paper that do no one any good unless their hearts are changed and they BELIEVE IN HIM.

    Sure, crowds followed him around, and they thought he was a prophet, but not the Messiah. Why? Even towards the end of His mission they still had problems:

    “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me DOES HIS WORKS. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. (John 14)

    Jesus was still telling them to believe in Him! He then tells Philip and Thomas, who still did not know that Jesus was God, probably with a little frustration, “if you don’t believe me, believe the works.” The works that were GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER. But then (and here is the important part) he explains about those works:

    The Father WHO DWELLS IN ME DOES HIS WORKS. Do you get this FOF? As I have told you over and over again, this is the pattern. We believe in Jesus, are born again and the Holy Spirit that dwells in us DOES HIS WORKS THROUGH US. Those are the works we do, the same ones that Jesus did. Yet, you keep harping over and over about how we don’t believe in doing any works. This is simply dishonest, so stop repeating this over and over again. You’re wrong, and you know you are. But those works don’t SAVE US. They come out of a changed heart of LOVE, where the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Again, “practical belief” has nothing to do with any of this, as Jesus Himself said,

    43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ EVERYONE who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

    How does one make “practical belief” work, when no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them to Him?

    My loving critics here will interpret this to mean that I believe our works save us. And there is nothing I can do or say, no passage of scripture, that will convince them otherwise. The truth is, I believe we are saved by faith in Christ. But that faith cannot be separated from behavior. Belief motivates behavior. But that faith or belief is also strengthened by Christ-like behavior. And that is why Abraham’s faith is said to have been “perfected” by his works.

    The reason why we are not convinced is because you belong to a church of works and regulations. Common sense man, common sense. You cannot strengthen your faith by works alone, because the Holy Spirit provides us with the means to do those works. If you have been renewed by the power of the Holy Spirit, you will be reborn in the image of God, and if you are reborn in God’s image to the renewing of your mind, you then “do the works” the Spirit gives you to do. And all of this is about love, not forced regulations.

    A case in point is grindael’s response appealing to Matthew 7. Christ said at the end of His sermon on the mount that “whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them I shall liken him unto a wise man……” But grindael responds with the classic claim that our works do not save us and claims that this is what Christ was saying.

    You see folks, what FOF just did here. He claims that works do not save you, (only faith) but then gets upset when I said that our works do not save us. FOF can’t seem to make up his mind. Rather, he NEEDS to have those works because that is the only way he can preserve his Mormon system of self-aggrandizement. That is why the Pharisees felt threatened by Jesus and why FOF feels threatened by Evangelicals who quote Jesus.

    Jesus saves us, not our works as Mormonism teaches and FOF just affirmed. You can try and interpret what Jesus said in some other way, but that is who saves us. Our works are only a confirmation of our changed hearts. That is why Jesus changed Ten commandments into two. Love God, and your Neighbor, now called “the Royal Law”.

    FOF also forgot to include how you can do those works he claims are so necessary, and then Jesus will turn around and say “I never knew you”. They claimed to believe in Jesus and did many wonder ful works. So why would Jesus condemn that? According to FOF, he wouldn’t. FOF won’t answer that. Jesus said,

    27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6)

    Why? Because when we believe in Jesus and the Father draws us to him, our hearts are changed. Jesus said,

    63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6)

    Without true belief, no works in the world will get you eternal life. And doing works will not help you to believe. “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” Therefore,

    For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from people. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

    You must KNOW Jesus. The real Jesus. Reading about him in the scriptures alone won’t save you unless you COME TO HIM and BELIEVE. That is what the Pharisees did with Moses and the Law, they read, and then performed lifeless regulations done with their own self aggrandizement as the reward. (The same thing Mormons do with their “plan of salvation”). That is why John said,

    7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

    God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. This change of heart produces the works that we constantly speak of. Not the FORCED REGULATIONS of Mormonism made up by men for their own self aggrandizement.

  10. grindael says:

    Grindael is trying to separate belief from works.

    No I’m not. Jesus and His Apostles did. Works flow out of belief, but you must have a change of heart FIRST. This does not come from us, it comes from GOD. Even after all that, FOF still doesn’t get it.

    At least it seem like he is. And he (and so many other critics) are using this verse from Matt 7 to argue that our works or behavior are not the focus of Christ’s teachings.

    They never were! BELIEF IN JESUS is the focus. The works show that we are truly God’s children. That is why forced regulations have never been part of the Gospel of Jesus. Notice some thing about the sermon on the mount. You say they are all about behaviour. I agree. But notice these behaviours:

    3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, 4 “Blessed are those who mourn,5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, 7 “Blessed are the merciful,.8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, .9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake

    These are all behaviours that come from being born again of the Spirit of God. You have it all backwards. How can you regulate those? Make them “works”? They are not. They are Godly attributes that come from being reborn in His image. That is true theosis, not some temple ritual that makes God into just another man on a priesthood power trip.

    We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us -‘ Joseph Smith or the Sword.'”

    Why does a follower of Christ need Blood Atonement? Revenge Oaths? Forced Castrations?

    And in fact, the opposite is true. Christ is condemning the behavior that is motivated only by the desire for praise of the world. He is absolutely not condemning behavior in general.

    What Christ is really condemning is selfishness. He was preaching love and selflessness.

    The sermon on the mount is absolutely about behavior- giving alms in secret, praying in secret, fasting in secret, forgiving, not lusting, etc. The emphasis is behavior motivated by private, “secret” religion, not the desire to be seen and praised by other people.

    NO. “Religion” had nothing to do with it. Otherwise they would still be living by regulations. (like the Mormons still do). It is motivated by LOVE, born of the Holy Spirit. You could not be more wrong. The Pharisees did things by REGULATION, and therefore, the works themselves were their own reward and status symbol. That is why they bragged, that is why they swaggered, that is why they did everything in public. Selfishness. Self aggrandizement. Everything that encapsulates Mormonism.

    Christ is absolutely not saying in that verse that our works or behavior is secondary or that they don’t matter. He is saying that we must not be motivated by the desire for praise and recognition.

    No one here has EVER SAID, that they don’t matter. But they are SECONDARY to BELIEF. They have to be. Jesus said they were. Or are you not paying attention to what He said? What I have quoted here, from the Bible?

    I have tried to point out this connection between behavior and belief, works and faith, for a long time here.

    And you still have it wrong.

    Again- as I said above, the important things is belief in Christ enough to behave the way He instructed us to. If we can do that, our faith and belief is strengthened, and the cycle continues.

    NO. NO. NO. As Jesus said, “30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.” As Paul said, “He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

    You are caught in a vicious cycle, that is true. If you break one commandment the cycle is broken. Those who follow Christ are LED BY THE SPIRIT TO DO GOOD WORKS. We never know where that is going to lead us. The Spirit gives us GIFTS to help us.

    You can believe in ANYONE and still do “good works”. (As you do with your “prophets”). People in AA do it all the time with their “Higher Power” that can be anything. You are following a form, but it has no SPIRIT, or you would not need the regulations. Over and over again Jesus Apostles taught this.

    That is why Mormons have forced regulations, because it is all about money, greed, and power and outward appearance. The Pharisees would have loved your Temples. All that money going to self aggrandizement, when it could feed the poor.

    Mormons worship their system. “I know the Church is True”. Their prophets. “You must believe in Joseph Smith or you are damned”. “Follow the ‘prophet’ even if he tells you to do something wrong.”

    Their Jesus is only a small part of what Mormonism is. One of billions of “gods” that are not really necessary, because anyone of them can be a “savior”. The endless “cycle of the gods”. Mormon “prophets” have even said that if Jesus had failed, he would have been replaced. The Jesus of the Bible was GOD HIMSELF, and never was going to fail.

    What I have been arguing for is the idea that if the belief we hold in Christ is sufficient to get us to follow Him in action and behavior, getting a theological nuance or detail wrong about Christ’s nature a billion years ago or the precise nature of His relationship to God is not a damning thing.

    A theological nuance or detail? Identifying your God as Min? LOL. Funny how that works right into what I was saying about the wrong Jesus. As Paul said,

    1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect AND THEIR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH WHICH ACCORDS WITH GODLINESS, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior… (Titus 1)

    You can’t have the Holy Spirit of God, if you worship the wrong God. The Father will not draw you to Christ, because you refuse to believe in the right God. Jo Smith’s God was identified as MIN, the fertility God in the Book of Abraham. Mormons worship a God concocted by the mind of Jo Smith. One that took him years to craft, which went from a Trinity of One, to two Gods, to three Gods in 14 years.

    In other words, I believe it is not more important to get those details correct than it is to do what Christ wants us to do in our behavior.

    Others have addressed this. But you are doing that things that MEN command you to do, not what GOD commands you to do. You then expect everyone else to do that also, when such regulations are condemned by Jesus chosen apostles.

    If a person believes in Christ enough to follow in behavior, he or she is a disciple of Christ.

    Then why did Jesus say (again I quote this),

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    To put it another way: Did we not believe in you enough to follow what our “prophets” tell us your behaviour is? FOF never answered me when I asked about this in my last post to him either.

    You cannot REGULATE the will of the Father. I’d like to see you try. (Oh that’s right, that’s what Mormon “prophets” CLAIM to do.) They put aside Christ and the Holy Spirit and go back to the days of Moses and the Law, and the fantasy about a “restoration of all things”.

    In my experience, evangelical Christians insist that first and foremost, and far more important than any behavior is getting all the theological nuances details right about a whole list of things (uncreated, not the brother of satan, God in the flesh, not the literal Son of God, etc. etc.). They seem to claim that if you get any of those details wrong, you are screwed and going to burn in hell no matter what your behavior or motives are. And I cannot imagine anything more like the Pharisee mindset.

    Here, the real FOF comes out. Hatred for Evangelicals. Be careful FOF, we are not the ones with the rich “prophets”, the gaudy Temples, and the big corporate investments. We are the body of Christ led by the Holy Spirit, not by Corporate Suits who live in multiple homes and worship money.

    That being said, I do believe it is important to study and learn everything we can about Christ, His nature, His relationship to the Father, etc. But it is the relative weight between this information and the willingness to follow and obey that is the point of disagreement, at least from my perspective.

    You can’t follow and obey if you are following the wrong Jesus. And you certainly aren’t following and obeying what Jesus and his Apostles taught us. Regulations kill. The Spirit gives life. Mormon “prophets” kill. Jesus gives life.

  11. falcon says:

    The reason that FOF and other LDS are so stuck on the works paradigm is because that’s how they become gods. Without the works, no Celestial Kingdom, no forever family, no creating your own worlds to rule and, I suppose, no power to resurrect your wife from the dead by calling out her secret name.
    So works are a huge deal in the Mormon program. And, BTW, did I mention that “works” includes kicking in 10% of your income to LDS Inc. This is a pay for play scheme.
    Guys like FOF are so full of pride because in their warped view it’s their works that are going to earn them their way to becoming gods in the Mormon system. That’s why they can’t let them go.

    As Christians we know our works have nothing to do with being saved. We have nothing to be prideful about. We humbly present our works to God in gratitude and thanksgiving for what He has done for us through Christ Jesus Our Lord.

  12. grindael says:

    Here is an interesting quote to show you how the Mormon Hierarchy would rather throw away principle because of money, riches and earthly things:

    I know it was the will of God that the word should go to the Latter-day Saints that plural marriages should cease, and that we should conform to the requirements of the law of the land. Just think of the condition the leaders of Israel were in! Here were probably nineteen-twentieths who had not obeyed that law. They would have been involved with those who had obeyed it. THEY would have been disfranchised. The Lord revealed that to President Woodruff. They would have been deprived of temples and the ordinances of salvation administered therein, of the society of the Priesthood, AND PERHAPS OF THEIR OWN PERSONAL PROPERTY. Now, the Lord saw the condition that THE LEADERS OF THE PEOPLE were in. Can you not see how wise it was in Him to come to OUR deliverance by giving His word? I have heard President Woodruff say that he would rather go out and be shot than yield one hairsbreadth of that doctrine unless the Lord should command him, and he waited, and we all waited, until the Lord did give the command, and when He gave it, His Spirit testified to us that it was the right thing to be [p.294] done. (George Q. Cannon, Brian Stuy, Collected Discourses Vol.2, p. 294, Nov. 1, 1891)

    Funny thing is, just a year before that, Woodruff had a “revelation” not to rescind the law of polygamy. Why did he do so? Because of money. Could Mormons still have done the ordinances? Yes. Nothing was stopping them from moving and starting over. But the money, lands and possessions were more important to them. Heaven forbid, they might have even lost “their own personal property”!!!

    Funny that from that time forward, those men became fabulously rich, more and more withdrawn from society, and now live in multi-million dollar houses while many suffer just to make ends meet and are still FORCED to give 10% of their income to the Corporation that benefits those at the top the most.

  13. MJP says:

    So, I wonder if we will see FoF respond to any of this conversation.

    I am beginning to more and more conclude that Mormonism is nothing more than a giant cult. Its only reason for survival I think arguably could be the move to Utah. But when a belief is instilled that whether or not you believe, you should still stay a Mormon there are problems.

  14. Rick B says:

    Mjp, dont expect fof to reply, he’s famous for avoiding questions.
    he sits here and tells us we are wrong, yet when we ask point blank questions he dodges and avoids them. My question to him will be proved correct and prove him a liar if he chooses not to reply, becsuse he either needs to admit I’m correct, and he would never do that, or if he claims I’m wrong. Then he needs to tell me how and why, but he won’t ever do that either.

    My new internet raido show starts this Saturday, when I do discuss Mormonism, I will mention people like fof, things they refuse to answer and let people know this stuff so they can use it. Thanks fof for proving me with talking points.

  15. MJP says:


    I don’t expect one. I don’t now want to get into a discussion of his tactics, but I would like to focus on Mormon thinking. They really seem to have their heads in the sand and hands over their ears. Their hearts are certainly closed to hearing truth. I really don’t think they are that obstinate in other areas of their lives. Who knows, maybe they are in fact that bad, but I don’t think so.

    It just amazes me how much they give up for the organization rather than truth. The truth seems to be the organization, not Christ and not religion. Its a system that they support, not a god, let alone God. I know they claim it is all built on God, but I honestly fail to see how it possibly can be based on God. Leadership and authority within the system is king, and those who continually rise in the system will achieve ultimate salvation. No one else can get there.

    When leadership and authority become king, the system is ripe for abuse. Not only that, but when you look at Smith and Young, one gets a feeling they were quite the tricksters out to take advantage of people and amass authority and wealth. As time h as moved on, feeling of sincerity may exist but I don’t think the leaders look any less fondly of authority.

    I could go on quite a rant now, but I’ll conclude by simply saying Mormon thought fascinates me. How they can look the other way is just beyond my comprehension.

  16. Mike R says:

    Again Fof F ‘s rhetoric, criticisms and faulty assumptions have been dismantled .
    His caricature of ” evangelicals” concerning belief and works is so off base , but he
    doggedly repeats it because that makes his aberrant position appear the better choice
    and consistent the N.T. teaching about salvation .

    he said , ” If a person believes in Christ enough to follow in behavior , he or she is a
    disciple of Christ . ”

    There are Muslims who would agree statement .

    FoF loves pulling the Sermon on the Mount out and using it in way to bolster his
    argument . However he has only proceeded to misapply that sermon . In evangelizing
    the lost Paul preached Jesus — His identity and from that base the call to worship and
    serve , and glorify Him in word and deed. Paul got His instructions from Jesus via
    the Holy Ghost .
    It’s worth noting that a reason why Mormons want to emphasize works is because
    they can’t really afford to publically talk about some of the ” unique” doctrines of
    their leaders . By concentrating on their behavior of good deeds to others in their
    public interviews and outreach this aids in convincing people that the Mormon church
    is appointed by Jesus etc .

    Lastly, when I asked Fof F if he thought that those who leave the Mormon church
    were inferior morally and spiritually he flatly denied ever having said anything like
    that . Well on 3-7 grindael listed some statements by him , one of which was :

    In my view, it would be a such an enormous step down and step backward intellectually
    spiritually , and morally to leave the church for a different Christian church .”

    A step morally backward ? So for all you ex-Mormons you are inferior , you don’t
    measure up to those who are still members of the church . Now , according to
    Mormon leaders , you are like all others outside of their organization — you are part
    of the church of the Devil for our day ! ( 1 Nephi 14) .

    Thank goodness more and more LDS are discovering how they’ve been fooled into
    joining a church whose leaders cleverly mimicked Jesus’ true apostles enough to
    detour sincere people into following them .
    But we get to point LDS to some great news : It’s Jesus not Joseph !

  17. grindael says:

    I think that MJP has the right of this, that we should stop focusing on the tactics of some, and instead focus on Mormon thinking. It has become painfully obvious to me that some are not going to change, even when confronted by their own tactics, but that doesn’t have to affect the rest of us. We are here to provide evidence and contrast between the Biblical Jesus and His teachings and the Mormon system of theology and beliefs. As MJP stated, some are so focused on Organizations — and I think that gets them frustrated when trying to speak to Evangelicals, who embrace the Biblical model of a universal body of believers led by the Holy Spirit who does not need to lead us by regulations that kill and authoritative figures that make men the focus of these organizations. Though this happens outside of Mormonism, this blog is about Mormonism.

  18. falcon says:

    Mormons seem to think that Christians don’t believe in works, morality or piety. But that’s part of the war on Christianity that Mormonism has been waging ever since the days of Joseph Smith.
    The problem is, as is pointed out continually here, that Mormons don’t understand what role works, morality and piety play in NT Christianity. It’s really not that difficult to read the NT and understand the message.
    We are sinners separated from God. But God made provision for us knowing that we could never get holy and righteous enough to enter His presence. It wouldn’t matter how many works we did, how hard we strove to be moral or how pious we were. We can never close the gap.
    Paul wrote “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith and this not of yourself. It is the gift of God that no one should boast.” Can it be any clearer than that?
    Our works, our morality and piety are a result of having come to Christ in faith and being declared righteous by God. So should we continue in sin that grace might abound? May it never be. How could we, who have died to sin, continue in it.
    Mormons just don’t get it because they have been fed a steady diet of having to earn their place in the fictitious Celestial Kingdom where they suppose wrongly, they will be gods.
    I remember hearing a previous LDS women say that she would go to bed at night completely exhausted and guilt ridden wondering if she had done enough that day. What a position these LDS leaders put these people in. They’ve got them right under their thumbs, running them to death and confiscating a good share of their income……………………………..for nothing.

  19. Mike R says:

    grindael ,

    I appreciate the way you lay out the truth of the New Testament concerning salvation —
    articulating clearly what it reveals about faith vrs works etc .
    Others have also explained this well so that any Mormon will see how their latter days
    apostles have diverged from Jesus’ original apostles teachings .


    you mentioned that doing works is how Mormons earn their way to becoming gods
    in the Mormon system . Mormon leaders have been clear about earning eternal life
    is doing the many rules , laws, regulations , that are the Mormon gospel . They talk
    about the necessity of having faith and they then have to climb up to God’s home in
    heaven by way of the gospel ladder their leaders have constructed . The goal of
    becoming Almighty Gods await those males who can climb that tall ladder .

    Even though Mormon leaders have taught that this goal can only be achieved by
    earning it , there has arisen in the last decade or so a angle used ( poplarized ) by
    some BYU professors that has proven successful at presenting Mormon doctrine in
    a way that make it appear very close to how ” Evangelicals ” talk about salvation .
    This is done by Mormon using phrases like , “we are saved by faith not our works ” ,
    and similar phrases . It can give some people the impression that we are being to picky
    with Mormonism etc .
    This angle is not much difference in how , in order to avoid scrutiny , some Mormons
    hesitate to say that Mormonism teaches men can become Gods just like God the Father
    is a God . Instead it is not uncommon to hear these Mormons say that they can become
    ” like ” God , and by using that angle it will soften it enough to throw people off from
    thinking that Mormonism is’nt to wayward etc .

    So people need to realize what’s going on when they hear Mormons like F of F describe
    Mormon doctrine that sounds the same as the New Testament teaches , or similar to
    how non Mormons talk about faith vrs works .
    In Mormonism earning salvation is by works , a lot of them . Adding faith to that work
    load is not going to aid anyone because the New Testament teaches salvation (eternal
    life ) comes by faith alone , in Christ alone , through God’s grace alone . No earning —
    like the false apostles of Mormonism have taught .
    Works important ? Yes , but only after a person is pardoned by God and receives
    the gift of eternal life , and that takes place the moment one’s knee is bent , their heart
    is surrendered , and their mouth admits they’re guilty and then asks for pardon .
    Rom 10:9-10 . Eph 2: 8-10 .

  20. falcon says:

    Well Mike it’s time for Mormonism to reinvent itself for a new generation.
    What you described coming from the word Smiths at BYU is an attempt to change the perception without changing the reality of Mormonism. Does what you describe sound like the Mormonism of the 19th century? No, not at all.
    What I think we’d all like to know is what does it mean when a Mormon says that they seek to “be like God”? Have they dumped the works related system which will allow them to climb the ladder of LDS success to become an actual god with actual planets to rule, a goddess wife or wives with whom they will have some sort of reproductive act that will lead to the continual birthing of spirit offspring to populate the worlds this man to god has created?
    That’s a mouth full I know, but has the LDS church dumped these beliefs like, for example, the man resurrecting his wife from the dead by calling out her secret name?
    You just can’t trust these pups! They will say that they have to have the new lingo because people just aren’t spiritual enough, mature, to understand these deep, precious truths.
    Mormons need to get their heads right and at least be honest enough to clearly articulate what they believe and where they get these beliefs. They don’t get them from the Bible that’s for sure. They have put their faith and trust in men who claim to be hearing from and speaking for God. They say they “know” based on a feeling which is supposedly a mystical confirmation of some sort.
    It really doesn’t matter if things change because in Mormonism the beliefs and practices are subject to change without notification. It’s all part of some sort of spiritual evolution, a progression.
    No thank you. I’ll stand on the solid ground of Biblical truth as revealed by God’s prophets as spoken to by the Holy Spirit.

  21. Rick B says:

    I was reading in exodus about the children of Israel asking Aaron to make them a God. So after Aaron made them the golden calf, the children of Israel all said, this is the god the delivered us out of Egypt. That’s exactly what Mormonism does, creates there own gods, then claims these false gods saved them. But then they confuse everyone by claiming these false created god are the same God of the bible, they use teachings from the bible and of course add there own added teachings and claim these false gods are real.

  22. falcon says:

    Interestingly enough is that they created this false god while the legitimate prophet was up on the mountain getting the the real revelation from the authentic God. In this case I suppose we could call Aaron a false prophet in that he gave into the desires of the people’s flesh to engage in all sorts of lewd and licentious behavior.
    When the devil conceived of Mormonism he was very smart in clothing this counterfeit religion with the appearance of morality, piety and spirituality. The outside appearance masks what’s going on in the inside. These foolish followers of the false Mormon prophets think that marching around their false temples in costumes and participating in false religious rites will eventually make them into gods.
    I know this may come across as being harsh to the average Mormon questioner who shows up here but sometimes I think it’s necessary to shock people into reality. These Mormons don’t view their religion as I’ve described it but that’s exactly what it is.
    It frightens me that people reject the Living God for these occult practices lifted right out of the handbook of Free Masonry. These folks have been diluted into thinking that what their doing is the real deal and that we just don’t understand it. We do understand it and consider it our duty to bring Mormons to a point where they recognize what they are involved in.
    Being devout, pious and sincere is not an excuse for rejecting God.

  23. Rick B says:

    Falcon, my last reply and this reply is via my phone while being at work, that’s why it is short.
    one thing fof thinks is if we do what the bible says, God says we will be saved. Yet like I said and the bible points out, we cannot create a false god and name that false god, Jesus then claim teachings of the as l God and attach them to the false god. What happened to those people when Moses came back? They were put to death. Notice also God was angry with them and wanted to wipe them out.

    How can mormons think they are not angering the true God of the bible by worshipping a falsegod named after the real God?

  24. Mike R says:


    you hit the nail on the head when you said how some Mormons are attempting , ” to change the
    perception without changing the reality ” . And the reality about salvation in Mormonism is :
    works are mandatory — rules , regulations , necessary to do to get to heaven and be with God .

    It’s important to that lurkers understand that some Mormons will attempt to present doctrines
    in such a way that makes them appear not to different from what those believe who are trying
    to evangelize them etc . and Mormons like Fof F does this with the faith vrs works question .
    Now he can’t pull the wool over our eyes but there may be people reading his comments that
    stand a chance of being fooled .
    On reason we’re here is to help these people sort things out .

    It’s such a blessing to have many ex Mormons here , they can share what it was like to strive
    to be obedient to the Mormon church system .

  25. Pingback: Sunday in Outer Blogness: Now what? edition! » Main Street Plaza

  26. falcon says:

    This is a rather long video but for those of us interested in the changing landscape of Mormonism, it is very interesting. I am especially interested in Joseph Smith evolving from a rather traditional view of the nature of God to one that is totally outside of Christianity. The presentation hits its stride at about the 22 minute mark where Grant Palmer points to Smith’s original view of the nature of God; after reviewing the 1832 and 1838 account of the first vision in the first part of the presentation.

    “Joseph Smith’s Changing View of God” with Grant Palmer

    Joseph Smith changed his view from a monotheistic god, to a polytheistic god over the years. Grant also answers Q&A at the end of the talk.

    This was in preparation for the recently added information to the LDS Church’s website: http://www.lds.org/topics/first-visio

    For the outline of this talk, visit: http://mormonthink.com/grant12.htm

    Grant starts at about 2 minutes.


  27. cattyjane says:

    I was reading today in 1 Kings. I couldn’t believe what I read! Its about Jeroboam and his establishment of the northern kingdom of Israel. His actions led to the northern tribes of Israel to abandon Jerusalem. He misled the people in order to keep their loyalty 1 Kings 12:25-33. He lied to them and made two golden calves and put one in Bethel and one in Dan. He told them “You have been going up to Jerusalem long enough. This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!” So instead of returning to Jerusalem and worshiping the true God of Israel they worshiped in these places instead. Jeroboam also appointed priests from the ranks of the people where were not of Levite descent. He contrived “of his own mind” to establish a festival for the Israelites.

    Sounds like many of the religions today, not just LDS. They have the imitation of truth but they are not what God commanded. Jeroboam may have thought that he could come before the God of Israel in his own way but that is never the case. Good intentions mean nothing if God does not command it of us.

    I kept reading to the point where the prophet from Judah confronted the king and the alter broke before him 1 Kings 13. God had instructed this prophet not to drink or eat in this place and that he should not even travel back on the same road. On his way out of town and old prophet from Bethel, the town of Jeroboam, confronted him and told the prophet of Judah that he was also a prophet and that and angel commanded by the Lord had told him to come get him to have bread and water at his place. The prophet of Judah believed him and went and ate at his house. The Lord punished him for not obeying his words and believing the words of this false prophet. He was killed by a lion on the way out of town.
    This really spoke to me about how we should always line up the word of God when people try to tell us something opposite of what God spoke. The prophet of Judah thought it was ok because the man said “an angel of the Lord appeared to me and said to come get you”. The prophet of Judah thought he was doing right but he was still punished because he disobeyed the commandment God had given to him to not eat or drink in that town. His good intentions did not spare his life, and he did not have the excuse that he was lied to and deceived by a false prophet. He was punished regardless.
    When we stand before the throne of God to be judged we will not be able to place blame on someone for telling us lies and get a pass. We are expected to seek out answers, search the scriptures to see if what we are being told is true and worship God only in the way he says to. Only a few will make it in the end. That is how it has always been. We cannot come before the face of God the way we want to. We will be judged for the things we add or take away from the way that God instructed us to obey him.
    The LDS church is no different from the way that Jeroboam diverted from the truth to create his own approach to God. It doesn’t matter if the names are the same in the worship of God. If it is not in the way that God instructed it is an abomination.
    The story does not end well for Jeroboam. Jeroboam never turned from his evil way but kept appointing priests for the shrines. The scriptures state that the House of Jeroboam incurred guilt and it led to their utter annihilation from the face of the earth.
    It is a dangerous thing to put anything before the face of God. I think the most important and most difficult thing I have learned during my journey is that I cannot come before God in my own way or in the most comfortable way. I have to put my desires of worship aside an approach him according to how he says I should.

  28. falcon says:

    I got sort of excited when I read your above post. It took me back to the time years ago when I really got serious about Bible study. I went through a study twice called “The Bible Walk Through”. I ended up teaching it several times, the last, a couple of years ago.
    The part on the split in the Kingdom is a real seminal moment in the history of Israel. The two southern tribes, Judah and Benjamin, became it’s own entity and the ten northern tribes, there own kingdom. What happened eventually is that the northern kingdom was over run and ended up eventually being half-breed Jews. The southern kingdom eventually was hauled off by the Babylonians for seventy years. The Jews hated the people in the northern kingdom. In fact they’d travel around that area rather than go through it.
    That’s why the disciples were so taken back when Jesus was talking to the Samaritan women at the well.
    The OT account of this part of Jewish history is very interesting (See Daniel, Nehemiah, and Ezra).

  29. faithoffathers says:


    Don’t know if you have read my responses to you. Reply when you get a chance.

    Not really interested in talking about polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, or the other distractions that have predictably come up on this thread.

    Grindael mentions the idea that belief comes first, before works. Sure. I have no problem with that. And that is why I spoke of a person having belief in Christ enough to follow Him and do what He said. Once a person does that, their knowledge of Him increases as does his or her faith. It is a cyclical process.

    Still waiting for the passages of scripture wherein Christ states that theological correctness on the smaller details matters more than doing what He said.

    An analogy. One of your neighbors named Jim is taking a walk at night and notices your house is on fire. You are very tired and do not awake when the fire alarms go off in your house. This neighbor, Jim, breaks into your house, carries you, your wife, and your children out of the house and saves you all. The next week you overhear two of your children arguing about whether Jim went to college in Texas or Michigan. One says to the other, “you don’t even believe Jim saved us if you actually think Jim went to school in Michigan.” The other replies, “your gratitude towards Jim means nothing if you still believe he went to college in Texas.” You are frustrated by the fact that your kids are so focused on such details in the face of such amazing courage and selflessness.

    The repetitive arguments about “another Jesus” are no different than the children in this analogy.

    Please provide a passage of scripture that shows Christ telling a person whom He had healed that he or she must understand the theological nuances of His pre-earth life before the healing could be effective or sins could be forgiven.

    In saying all this, I am in no way saying that it is OK that LDS doctrine is incorrect. I whole-heartedly believe that the true gospel has been restored and that we all have enormous amounts to learn from modern scripture and modern prophets. I am saying that the fact that you get some of the lesser matters incorrect is OK!

  30. cattyjane says:

    Understanding the culture and context of things certainly makes a difference doesnt it.
    I just hope that someone in the LDS faith who is questioning things will read that story and see that God does not honor mans ideas of approaching him. Good intentions mean nothing to God. We are accountable for what we believe, how we worship, and practices that we participate in.
    Think about it! They used the same name for God. They believed the same way Judah did except they tried to approach God in their own way, with their own alters, on their own terms, outside of where God instructed them to worship.
    Mormons use the name God, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit but they have a different approach. They have built their own temples and designed their own means of worship outside of Gods instruction. God will not honor this and any mormon who is questioning if the church is true should listen while God is speaking to them and get out. God broke the alter Jeroboim stood over right in front of his face and he still chose to die practicing what he knew to be a lie because of pride.
    We must be careful not to allow our hearts to go numb to the voice of God. Continuing to practice, study, or listen to teachings that you know to be

  31. MJP says:

    Faith of Fathers–

    Again, its not single nuances here to differentiate Christ. We are talking enough nuances to be talking about a different person altogether. You act as if this was never written. You either never read it or simply feel more comfortable in your own position regarding the person who saved the family in the burning house that you cannot fathom that Jim may in fact be Bob.

    In other words, your analogy is irrelevant to the point: Jim may well be the one who took the family from the house, but is Jim really the person to save you from your sins?

    In case you missed my anology earlier, though: consider that you begin describing a greay, four legged animal you call a horse. Its got hair, is large, can fun fast, can be ridden, loves peanuts, has a big head and has large ears. However, after some more probing, it turns out this grey, four legged animal’s nose is a big hose, the legs are round and thick, and its ears are round rather than pointy. It’s hair is thinner and it has tusks. While your initial description could be that of a horse, it turns out you are describing an elephant.

    So it is with your Christ. Your descriptions could be considered the true Christ, but upon further questioning, we find out a lot more about him that shows yours is something altogether different from the true Christ.

    By the way, in your analogy, it is indeed possible that good things can happen by following a false prophet and identifying a man who makes things better for you in some ways. However, failing to see this person’s faults and his direction on the wrong path leads you to a place you don’t want to go. Whether Jim went to college or not is simply irrelevant to who Jim is and what he can do for you in eternity.

  32. cattyjane says:

    Oops my text was cut off.
    I just wanted to say we cant continue to practice a lie or we become self deluded and will be handed over to a reprobate mind.
    Wow! You make me laugh sometimes. This is what I mean by not understanding culture and context. The people Jesus dealt with were Hebrews, Jewish people, taught in the synagouges. These people understood the character and and nature of the messiah. They didnt need to be instructed on those things because they were written in the scriptures (OT). If you are only going to base your understanding of the messiah and God on the NT than you will be lost. We were told in Deut 6 about the nature of God. He is Echad, one. We were told there is none before or after him. Sorry to bust your bubble but you will never be a god. The Jewish people did not have to be told to believe in Messiah. This was always a huge part of their beliefs. They understood the time period in which he would arrive Daniel 9, they knew that he would come and explain all things regarding the OT scriptures and prophesy, and they knew the lineage in which he would arrive from. Why would he need to tell them to believe who hw was? In the culture of these people it was never about belief but always about the actions. Think about it. If a woman comes to Jesus and says “If you will it I will be healed” does hereally need to ask if she believes? Of course not. Her actions show her beliefs.
    Sometimes people try to completely seperate the NT from the OT scriptures and call it something totally new and different. Whenever you read the new test you have to consider what these people would be thinking and what scriptures they would be searching for answers and understanding. Hint hint. It wasnt the New Test. 🙂

  33. johnnyboy says:

    lest ye all forget,

    FoF also said in response to me on another thread that all the intelligent ex-mormons become atheists. It’s the dumb ones (in his experience) that all become evangelicals. Just so you all know where you all stand in his mind.

    I continually want to thank you all for proving FoF dead WRONG in his assumptions of ex-mormon evangelicals. The community here has given me strength, hope and the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. My wife and I have been on the fence for many months with regards to religion, spirituality, atheism. and Christianity. It will probably take more time for us to completely abandon the “mormon groupthink” that has been instilled in us for so long in order for us to begin to accept Christ again.

    It’s a difficult process.

    thank you all for your guidance.

  34. grindael says:

    Good points Cattyjane, very good points. Let’s deconstruct FOF here.

    Grindael mentions the idea that belief comes first, before works. Sure. I have no problem with that. And that is why I spoke of a person having belief in Christ enough to follow Him and do what He said. Once a person does that, their knowledge of Him increases as does his or her faith. It is a cyclical process.

    You are still spouting the same thing, which I’ve proved is wrong, but you (once again) have shown nothing to back it up with. And… Um…Backpedaling? You said they were “inseparable”. Therefore, neither one nor the other could come “first”. Just saying. In fact, until I laid it all out from the Bible, you resisted saying this. Want the quotes?

    The two really cannot be separated. A person cannot say they believe in Christ if he or she does not follow Him in behavior.

    You then use the analogy about the people that Christ healed. What works were they doing to merit being healed? Your argument is one GIANT red herring.

    Still waiting for the passages of scripture wherein Christ states that theological correctness on the smaller details matters more than doing what He said.

    Catty Jane addressed this to some extent, but I’ll address it more. Why did John say,

    This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, (1 John)

    That is because the Gnostics believed in A Jesus, but the wrong Jesus. They denied that he came in corporeal form.

    Some of the Christian Gnostics said since matter was evil God could not really incarnate in a human body He was not subject to any human experiences or feelings. The Christian form of docetism taught that Jesus body was not a real body, was really a (spirit) phantom. he only appeared in human form and only appeared to suffer, it was an illusion. Thus Jesus could be a pure spiritual being in the midst of an evil world and not be contaminated by it. Jesus only appeared to have flesh which denied his genuine humanity. They believed if Christ suffered he could not be divine, (this was an integral part of Gnosticism) because God cannot suffer. Instead the Bible says that God descended into sinful matter and took on human flesh, it was real, this they could not believe. You can see this error in the cults today when they refuse to believe the Bible teaches God became a man. And that the resurrection was a spirit body and not the flesh. The Bible teaches that the body that emerged from the tomb Sunday morning was the exact same body that went into the tomb except it was glorified.

    This totally destroys FOF’s argument. John called anyone who believed in such nonsense anti-Christ.

    An analogy. One of your neighbors named Jim is taking a walk at night and notices your house is on fire. You are very tired and do not awake when the fire alarms go off in your house. This neighbor, Jim, breaks into your house, carries you, your wife, and your children out of the house and saves you all. The next week you overhear two of your children arguing about whether Jim went to college in Texas or Michigan. One says to the other, “you don’t even believe Jim saved us if you actually think Jim went to school in Michigan.” The other replies, “your gratitude towards Jim means nothing if you still believe he went to college in Texas.” You are frustrated by the fact that your kids are so focused on such details in the face of such amazing courage and selflessness.

    This is so silly that I had a hard time believing that anyone could come up with such nonsense. We are not talking about where Jesus went to school, nor historical details about Jesus life, whether he began his ministry in 30 or 33 A.D., whether he had brown or blue eyes, etc. You so trivialized this as to make your argument laughable. Is this the best you can come up with, FOF?
    It absolutely matters who we worship, as Jesus said, (as per Cattyjane’s argument):

    22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. (John 4)

    This was Jesus talking to the woman from Samaria. Salvation is from the Jews because they worshipped THE RIGHT GOD. I put up a long post about this which you obviously ignored FOF. That is the thing with you, nothing ever sticks. You refuse to SEE the truth when it is right in front of your eyes, and you will then go back to your old arguments over and over again which have been proven false.

    The repetitive arguments about “another Jesus” are no different than the children in this analogy.

    Tell that to Jesus and his Apostles, who prove you wrong.

    Please provide a passage of scripture that shows Christ telling a person whom He had healed that he or she must understand the theological nuances of His pre-earth life before the healing could be effective or sins could be forgiven.

    This is another red herring. Jesus had authority from God to heal anyone regardless whether they believed in him or not. That did not mean that they were automatically SAVED. Some were healed without knowing that Jesus healed them.

    10 So the Jews said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not lawful for you to take up your bed.” 11 But he answered them, “The man who healed me, that man said to me, ‘Take up your bed, and walk.’” 12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13 Now the man who had been healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, as there was a crowd in the place.14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5)

    Was that healing based on faith or works? No. Others were healed and didn’t really believe in him. That wasn’t NECESSARY. Here is a good example of that,

    11 On the way to Jerusalem he was passing along between Samaria and Galilee. 12 And as he entered a village, he was met by ten lepers, who stood at a distance 13 and lifted up their voices, saying, “Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.”14 When he saw them he said to them, “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” And as they went they were cleansed.15 Then one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, praising God with a loud voice; 16 and he fell on his face at Jesus’ feet, giving him thanks. Now he was a Samaritan. 17 Then Jesus answered, “Were not ten cleansed? Where are the nine? 18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?” 19 And he said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”

    One had faith in the Messiah. The others, Jesus took mercy on and healed. Some that Jesus healed had faith, others did not.

    The problem with your analogy, FOF is that this WAS the real Messiah in the flesh, who healed him. The man placed his faith in the RIGHT Messiah, not a false Christ or a hypocritical High Priest. We too, must place our faith in THAT Messiah, the one from the Bible. Not one made up by men 2000 years later who is “anti-Christ”.

    In saying all this, I am in no way saying that it is OK that LDS doctrine is incorrect.

    Yes you are, because you say it doesn’t matter. Or is it only when it is convenient for you that you claim it matters?

    I whole-heartedly believe that the true gospel has been restored and that we all have enormous amounts to learn from modern scripture and modern prophets.

    Like what? What have they taught us that isn’t in the Bible? Oh yes, Adam-god, Blood Atonement, racism, polygamy, lying, corporate greed, forced regulations, and of course the identity of God, who is Min, according to Joseph Smith and Adam according to Brigham Young.

    I am saying that the fact that you get some of the lesser matters incorrect is OK!

    From what I have quoted, your “lesser matters” aren’t “lesser” to God or to the real authorized servants of God. We have tested your “apostles” and found them false. (Revelation 2)

  35. cattyjane says:

    I think the more you understand the old test role of the Messiah it will help you to have more confidence in the one who came and said I am the Messiah. Only studying the NT is like only watching the final season of your mothers favorite soap opera and trying to gain a full understanding of all the charcters from just that season. You can ask your mom about them but you will never have the indepth knowledge your mother has because she watched it from the beginning.
    My advice is study what the Hebrew people expected from the messiah and what scriptures in the Old Test speak of him. Thats really the only question there is to deal with regarding Jesus. Was he or was he not the Messiah spoken of in the Old Test? Once you answer that it should have cleared up a lot of the strange doctrines the LDS attach to Jesus. Seriously! And all you need is the OT to see this. Isnt it amazing!

  36. grindael says:


    It was actually me quoting FOF who made that statement (which was actually his from this discussion). This is what FOF said, (so everyone knows that Johnny is not lying about FOF or “bearing false witness”):

    There are two general groups of people who leave the church- those who become atheists and those who become evangelical Christian. The first group, in my experience, are those who are educated. The second group, in my experience, are those folks who are not well education [sic] from a secular perspective as well as a religious perspective within the church. It is always amazing to me the things people in this second group say about the church- it shows how limited and small their understanding was about the church in the first place. In my view, it would be such AN ENORMOUS STEP DOWN AND BACKWARD INTELLECTUALLY, spiritually, and morally to leave the church FOR A DIFFERENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH.

    FOF has tried to deny what Johnny said he did, and got all indignant. That comment will not be posted, nor his nasty comment to Sharon on another thread. FOF tried to say that the level of education he mentions is not linked to intelligence, but we see from his comment that it is, because he says that it is an enormous step backwards INTELLECTUALLY, to leave the Mormon Church and become a Christian, but funny he doesn’t link lack of intelligence (or intellect) to becoming an atheist, only a Christian, and specifically an Evangelical Christian. His hatred of Christians is very obvious here by his denigrating language. (Some Mormons are simply in love with atheist arguments (that their own church denies) not realizing they are poisoning their own well when they rely on them, like FOF who thinks they are “more educated”, something his own Church leaders deny).

    FOF absolutely directed that comment at the intelligence of Christians. Johnnyboy has not borne any false witness against FOF as he claimed in the comment that won’t be posted. FOF is just up to his usual antics of saying something and then trying to backtrack it later. (As he tried to do in that very thread) Too bad his words are in black and white, right there, and anyone who wants to read the original thread and see can do so.

    FOF has been asked repeatedly to give us evidence for his views, and he won’t. We have asked him repeatedly to stop the personal attacks, misquoting people, and creating false dichotomies, and he won’t. He simply wants to be a troll. FOF is therefore banned from MC.

  37. johnnyboy says:


    Thanks for reposting that and backing me up against FoF’s lies. Although I was mistaken about who FoF was addressing, I could not forget his ridiculous statements towards the evangelical community with regards to their intelligence levels. It was quite disturbing and revealed yet another window into the strange mind of F0F. Unfortunately, many mormons share the same mindset.

    I find it amusing that F0F tried to label what I wrote as “bearing false witness” when its easy for moderators to pull up his words from old posts. It’s rich when someone bears false witness about someone bearing false witness.

    Thanks again.

  38. grindael says:


    What some may not have thought of, is that “faithoffathers”, is just a “handle”. So, how can anyone “bear false witness” against someone that does not want to reveal their true identity? FOF could post here in anonymity, and no one knows who he/she? really is. All we can do, is compare former comments against current ones, to see if this anon is consistent. When I do that, it invariably leads them to object, as we have seen happen here. There is no way really, to check the facts of their story. With others who post anon here, many times they have private conversations with others here, so we know who they are. It is easy to lob out accusations and derogatory remarks under the cloak of anonymity, it is much more difficult to do so with your identity out in the open.

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