Who Is Your Proxy?

Guest Post

mormon-baptismMormons believe in doing baptisms for the dead for a number of reasons. Primary to these is the belief that people must be baptized in order to be saved.  According to Mormonism, baptism was not an option to many of history’s populations; they were utterly unable to fulfill this requirement.  In life they did not have the true church authorized to give true baptism.

Mormons recognize that dead people can do nothing for their salvation, not even a simple baptism. No matter what that dead person does in spirit prison, they cannot meet the requirement of their own baptism.  They need someone who is alive to accomplish the work for them.  Then, that deceased person, upon hearing the LDS gospel in spirit prison, can accept the gospel and accept the work of their proxy in the living world.

Therein, perhaps, lies a way to communicate, and have a Mormon actually relate to, the biblical Gospel.  Whether we attempt to help them realize that they are “dead in their sins” or we confront them with their church’s impossible requirements of sinlessness, righteousness, and perfection, or if we simply let the Holy Spirit convict them of their personal failures, perhaps they can more easily comprehend and finally see their need for Christ’s true Grace by hearing of it in terms of proxy work.

  • Jesus is my proxy justice, taking upon Himself the punishment I deserved.
  • Jesus is my proxy righteousness, living the life Himself that I can’t.
  • Jesus is my proxy perfection, being Himself that which I never can become.

Jesus is my Proxy.

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16 Responses to Who Is Your Proxy?

  1. falcon says:

    I always wonder where these aberrant religious sects come up with this stuff. I know, Mormons think that there is something in the Bible that calls for it. They don’t seem to put it together that the apostle Paul was describing a practice of a certain group, not prescribing it.
    The fact of the matter is that it’s appointed once for a man to die and then the judgement. I would say that this idea of sending out MM is a total waste of time because if getting a second chance was an option, then what’s the big deal?
    I just want to mention also that not all of the sects of Mormonism believe in baptizing the dead or, for that matter, ordinances that will result in men becoming gods. So it appears that this was not a part of the “restored” gospel, just an anomaly of the SLC sect.

  2. jaxi says:

    This is just a feel good addition Joseph added in to assuage his families fears because he kept making the obtaining of life with God more and more complicated. There’s a problem though. Mormonism is a works based system, except here. Hitler or any other person that didn’t get the chance to be Mormon can obtain the top of the Celestial Kingdom. They accept Mormon baptism, doctrinally, they are totally clean. But as for the many people that have left Mormonism, that continue to love God and try to serve Him and their fellow man. Well, it used to be outer darkness for us. But I think that’s toned down. Since I have my name removed, I guess Telestial is as good as it gets for me, when looking at the Mormon system. So what is really “saving” people. I mean freeing them from all their sins and consequences and granting them life with God? Is it Jesus, in Mormonism? I think just using this example you can see that it isn’t. It’s a particular ordinance. In Mormonism people aren’t accepting Christ as He is, as His person, uniting with the Great I AM for their eternal life, they are uniting with laws and ordiances. Laws that even regulate the Mormon God Himself. So if there is something greater than your god, I think that is what should be called God, don’t you? In Mormonism it is priesthood. That is what is upheld above all else. That is even what the Mormon god holds above all else. That is what sends Hitler to the highest heaven of course, while people like me live with the “whore mongers”. This is if he accepts of course, which is funny to me because isn’t the biggest complaint Mormonism has against Evangelicals, “All you have to do is accept? How ridiculous!,” yet there that option is to the limited few right there in Mormonism. I guess it’s better to never hear the Mormon gospel in the first place so no ones “works” can be held against them.

    LDS, try to understand this. The Gospel is the Word, the Word is a person, that person is Jesus Christ, He is God. There is nothing above Him. He is not governed by any type of law. There is no power that confines Him, not even “priesthood.”

    Christ said, “I am the resurrection and the life.” Christ did not just resurrect, as did Lazarus. He is not just another life, like you or me. He is THE resurrection. He is THE life.

    Think of your God. Now think if there is anything that your God must do. Anything higher? Older? Greater? Does your God have to follow something, even something abstract like a set of laws? If you can go higher, than that is your god. Follow your thoughts to completion. In Christianity, God is above all. There is none beside Him.

  3. Mike R says:

    Proxy work for the dead ? Mormonism claims that there are spirit missionaries traveling around
    the realm of the dead telling them the necessity of being baptized , and that a proxy on earth will
    stand in for them to accomplish this . But this is’nt the only proxy work that Mormons have done.
    Proxy marriages , proxy endowments , those are other doctrines invented by Mormon leaders.
    and these serve to make it easier to distinguish how far Mormon leaders have drifted from the
    true gospel which Jesus’ apostles shared in their travels —Rom 1:16 .

    Baptism for the dead may perk one’s curiosity , but like these other proxy doctrines it is’nt a
    doctrine from Jesus , rather these doctrines all come from the mind of a prophet who felt that
    his new ideas were from God and should be part of Jesus’ gospel . This is a common theme
    among prophets in the latter days who may be sincere , but not sent by Jesus —Mk 13:22-23 .

  4. Mike R says:

    Spartacus ,

    I like the point you used about Jesus as ” proxy ” . Hopefully Mormons will ponder what those
    three points seek to convey .

  5. falcon says:

    The thing that bugs me is the way the LDS people just buy into this “prophet” fantasy. I for one have judged the LDS/Mormon prophets and have had it affirmed that they are just men without any particular gifts or callings.
    And yet they are looked upon with such esteem by those who have been so foolish as to follow them and place all of their hope and trust in them.

    My hope and trust is in Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior; without whom, I would be spiritually lost and without hope.
    Mormons are trusting in a system of rules, regulations and rites. If they pass the test and do enough, they think they will receive the ultimate Mormon reward, becoming a god. What foolish people these Mormons are.

  6. cattyjane says:

    Question number one, where does it say proxy in the scriptures ever?

    Question number two, it is very specific in the old testament that each man is accoutable for his own sin. That is why Moses was not able to offer himself as a ransom for the children of Israel when they were disobedient. Are these people who are doing these proxy acts more righteous than Moses?

    Question number three. Something I have been studying quite heavily lately is the identity of Jesus Christ. Only God himself has the authority to forgive our debts that we have incurred due to our acts of tresspass against his commandments. I have found many scriptures in the Old Testament that point to the promised Messiah being God himself. God has always desired our obediance. Johns baptism in the NT testament was a baptism of repentance. Repentance means to clean off your old ways of behavior and head in the opposite direction to do what is right. They knew that they were living in the time period in which the promised Messiah would be arriving and they were preparing themselves for his arrival. The same way the people at Mt Sinai prepared for God to come down the mountain and speak to them. They had to faust, pray, and clean themselves. This did not save them but prepared them for presenting themselves before the living God. My point is H2O does not save or forgive anyone, living or dead. Same as removing the leven from our food during passover does not save or forgive us. What these earthly acts provide for the living is a chance to examine our hearts and our lives. Just as the leven is removed from our food we examine if we have sin that must be removed from our lives. As the filth is washed from our bodies, we consider if there is filth that must be washed from our hearts. So baptism was an act of preperation, not salvation.

    There is so much more to this but ive already written enough. I can provide scripture as well but im on my phone and not in front of my scriptures so I apologise. This was just pulled out of my brain.

  7. falcon says:

    cattyjane,
    ………………..but you miss the point.
    The point is that God is not soverign in the LDS system. The system is, in a sense, soverign. Even those who achieve the brass ring of deity are subject to the system. The Mormon god of this earth had to go through the system on another planet before he could become a god.
    So, baptism is part of that system. Proxy baptism for the dead is part of that system. All of the LDS ordinances, rituals and rights are part of the system. The gods are simply a result of the system.

    Contrast that with the Bible in which God is revealed to us. Does the God revealed in the Bible sound anything like the Mormon gods? There is no system in Christianity by which men can be saved. There is no rite or ritual that is necessary for salvation. Christianity is a relationship with God that is secured through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

  8. Mike R says:

    The Mormon doctrine where they practice baptism for the dead is truly the ” preaching for
    doctrine the commandments of men ” — the very thing that Joseph Smith accused others
    of . It truly is a vital doctrine in the Mormon gospel . But it’s not in the gospel that Jesus’
    apostles preached when they were empowered by the Holy Ghost and then sent out to teach .
    That means a person has to pick which gospel they will accept because not all are from Jesus —
    some are very good imitations — Gal 1:8 , and this is especially relevant in the latter days as
    and the scriptures inform us how that will happen — 2 Tim 4: 3,4 .

    Latayne Scott , in her book ” The Mormon Mirage ” ( 1979 ed ) shares about her life as
    a Mormon , and a BYU student . She mentions how she and other young people are
    interviewed so as to be permitted to enter the temple to do proxy baptisms for the dead .
    She was baptized 30 consecutive times in a matter of minutes . After baptisms she was led
    into a room where Elders placed their hands on her head and proxy confirmed these 30
    dead people , again in a manner of minutes . She states :
    ” This sort of mechanical processing of proxies goes on daily in the twenty or so temples
    around the world . Literally millions of dead persons have proxy baptisms done for them in
    this assembly line fashion .”

    This sort of practice raises many more questions than it might answer . One thing is for sure
    and that is this practice was not part of what Jesus’ apostles authorized in the church they
    served in as 2000 years ago —- the true church Jesus established .

  9. falcon says:

    Mike,
    I think that’s a pretty accurate description. This is what happens when people begin to think that religious rituals and rites have some actual power. There’s nothing here but assembly line dunkin donuts. And where do these rituals come from? From men, typically, who just get some ideas and convince people that they have some spiritual significance.

    Here’s a better way. Have a relationship with Jesus Christ and in so doing secure for yourself eternal life through faith. Get that? It’s through faith that we are saved and not by works that anyone should boast.

  10. falcon says:

    It’s not often that I hear Mormonism referenced in a Sunday sermon but it happened this week. The young (to me) associate pastor talked about being in a local restaurant for lunch and private Bible reading time when he noticed a couple of MM in a near by table. He asked them to join him. The discussion with the MM centered on the second chance scenario that the LDS MM preach. It was interesting hearing him relate the conversation he had with the MM.
    Someone who knows of what I do regarding participation here asked me after the church service, “Where would you start if you were to engage a couple of MM in conversation.” I said that I’d probably either start with a couple of my favorite topics, “Who is God?” or “Who is Jesus?” My second favorite topic relates directly to the LDS version of the Mormon restored gospel. I would ask, “So what your version of the restored Mormon gospel preaches, teaches and practices is the same thing that the first century church preached, taught and practiced, right?”
    Is there any evidence that the first century church believed that people could be proxy baptized for the dead so that (the dead) could then receive the gospel and do the work that would lead them to become gods? I’ll answer the question. The answer is no!
    Most of what is promoted by the LDS church is the invention of men. Those who follow these men are convinced that (these men) had some deep spiritual insights, called revelation from some supreme being. In the case of the LDS that supreme being is one of many gods in the universe but who has dominion over this particular planet.
    Again, where does this thinking come from? From the creative imagination of Joseph Smith and some who followed him. It’s really a theological nightmare and a free-for-all of epic proportion.

    God saw fit to reveal Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The revelation is complete regarding who God is and what Jesus’ death, burial, resurrection and Second Coming are. There’s no need to follow false prophets who claim special spiritual revelation or even visitation from heavenly beings. In fact Jesus was very clear about not following such persons.
    So the light came into the world and the darkness could not comprehend it. The Mormon religion keeps people in darkness regarding the revelation of Jesus Christ. It keeps them in bondage to useless religious rites and rituals.
    We pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten those who hear the message of the Gospel that they might respond and be saved.

  11. falcon says:

    I thought that the following was a pretty good treatment of this topic. I took the liberty to edit it to fit our discussion here but provide a link for those interested in reading the entire article.

    Mormons infer that in 1 Corinthians, Paul speaks approvingly of living Christians receiving baptism on behalf of dead non-Christians; however, the context and construction of the verse indicate otherwise. The Greek phrase rendered by the King James Version as “for the dead” is huper ton nekron. This phrase is as ambiguous in Greek as it is in English. The preposition huper has a wide semantic range and can indicate “for the sake of,” “on behalf of,” “over,” “beyond,” or “more than.” Like the English preposition “for,” it does not have a single meaning and does not require the Mormon idea of being baptized in place of the dead. Such a reading would be unlikely given the more plausible interpretations available, and even if huper were taken to mean “in the place of,” it doesn’t mean Paul endorses the practice.

    First Corinthians 15 is a key chapter for Paul’s teaching on the resurrection of the body. He makes no statement on baptism for dead persons except to note that some unnamed “they” practice it. While the rest of his teaching in chapter fifteen refers to “we,” his Christian followers, “they” are not further identified.
    There is no other evidence in the Bible or in the early Church Fathers’ writings of baptism being practiced on the living in place of the dead. Some Mormon writers assert that some Christian commentators have discussed the possibility of a kind of “baptism for the dead” among some in the Corinthian community in Paul’s time. But these commentators do not suggest that the practice was accepted or mainstream. Given the silence of Scripture and tradition, we conclude rightly when we see this behavior as another aberration within a community of believers already soundly scolded by Paul for its lack of charity, its factionalism, its immorality, its abuse of the Eucharist, and other matters.
    We also see present-day Mormon doctrine contradicted in 2 Nephi 9:15: “And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this first death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy One of Israel, and then cometh the judgment and then must they be judged according to the holy judgment of God. For the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy . . . shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.”

    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mormonisms-baptism-for-the-dead

  12. Mike R says:

    Falcon,

    There’s just to much about what Mormon leaders have created about this doctrine/ ritual
    that is a red flag . Anyone who is concerned about being detoured these days by men who
    are religious but who have been appointed by Jesus [ Matt 24:11 ] need to be cautious about
    trusting Mormon leadership’s claims .
    Remember this doctrine concerning proxy’s comes from the mind of the same church leaders
    who introduced the doctrine where a husband could allow his wife to be sealed to the deceased
    prophet Smith — by proxy . It’s called Polyandry and the apostles of Mormonism practiced it
    as a gospel ordinance of Jesus’ church . Sadly people were fooled — 2Cor 11:13 .
    This man made practice can serve as a example of how certain men can cleverly convince
    others to practice strange doctrines — 2 Tim 4:3,4 — all in the name of ” the gospel of Jesus
    Christ ” .

    The Mormon people deserve better . May they anchor their beliefs in the Bible , and not be
    fooled by the wealthy and powerful men who direct their lives from Salt Lake City with their
    ” restored ” gospel .

  13. Mike R says:

    The second sentence in my post above should have read :
    ” Anyone who is concerned about being detoured these days by men who are religious AND
    WHO CLAIM to be appointed by Jesus ( Matt 24:11) need to be cautious ….”

  14. spartacus says:

    Christian: Who is your Proxy?

    LDS: I don’t have a proxy?

    Christian: Have you ever been a proxy for someone else?

    LDS: Yes.

    Christian: Why did that person need you to be their proxy?

    LDS: Well, they didn’t need me in particular, but they were never baptized in life. You have to be baptized in order to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

    Christian: What if the spirit in spirit prison tried to have their own baptism?

    LDS: (chuckles) They can’t do that.

    Christian: No? What if they tried really hard? Just hypothetically, what if the spirit person somehow got a missionary spirit to baptize them in a temple’s font? What if they did their best to be baptized in the spirit world?

    LDS: It wouldn’t work. They don’t have the body they need to be properly baptized.

    Christian: So, no matter how hard they tried, even if they managed to be dipped by a priesthood holding spirit in the font of a temple, it wouldn’t be enough?

    LDS: No.

    Christian: So, they need someone with life to do the work for them?

    LDS: Yes.

    Christian: And once you have done the proxy baptism, what do they have to do in spirit prison?

    LDS: They have to accept the gospel and accept the baptism.

    Christian: They don’t have to do the baptism themselves in spirit prison after they accept yours?

    LDS: No.

    Christian: So they just have to accept your baptism?

    LDS: Yes.

    Christian: What if they did a perfect baptism in spirit prison anyway, after accepting your proxy? Would it help more?

    LDS: No. In fact, it might get them in trouble.

  15. So what do you guys think of the idea of framing the biblical gospel in Mormon “proxy” language? Do you think it would reach Mormons? Or do you think they would be oblivious? What Mormon objections to this approach would you anticipate? What Bible verses/passages might be useful in a discussion such as the fictional one posted by spartacus? Former Mormons, how do you think you might have responded — both externally and internally — to a Christian presenting the biblical Gospel via “Jesus is my proxy”? I’d be really interested in your thoughts on this.

  16. takebreath says:

    I have done about 112 baptisms for the dead. Perhaps even for some of your own ancestors. Your welcome. :-)

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