There is a difference between seeking justification* before God by faith or by the law. Some think we must combine the two, relying both on faith and individual works of obedience. Is this what God requires? Galatians 3 has the answer.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)
Believing Versus Doing
From Tabletalk, June 2013
Faith that invests itself wholly and completely in God and His promises alone is the only faith that pleases the Lord. When, in the seventh century BC, Habakkuk could not understand how God could use the evil Babylonians to chastise His people, when it seemed from a human perspective that the Lord’s purposes for Israel had failed and that His faithful servants would not be vindicated, God responded that those He regards as righteous live by faith (Hab. 2:4). That is, those who are righteous in His sight continue trusting Him and do not rely on what they can see from a human perspective or what they can do to vindicate their own righteousness. Dr. R.C. Sproul explains: “Anybody can believe in God. What it means to be a Christian is to trust him when he speaks, which does not require a leap of faith or a crucifixion of the intellect. It requires a crucifixion of pride, because no one is more trustworthy than God” ([Commentary on] Romans, p. 35).
Note Dr. Sproul’s key point that God-pleasing faith means crucifying our pride. This is another way of saying, as Paul does in [Galatians 3:10-14], that we give up trying to attain our own righteousness before the Lord. The righteousness of God revealed in the gospel is ours by faith alone, for it is God’s gift to His people, the result of His saving acts that fulfill His promises to redeem His elect (Rom. 1:16-17; 3:21-26; 4:1-5; 5:12-21). To say that the righteous live by faith does not mean only that God’s people believe in Him but also that those whom the Lord declares to be righteous trust in Him alone. The essence of such faith is believing God in contrast to doing works of obedience. Galatians 3:10-14 contrasts these ways of establishing our relationship with the Father. No one can be declared righteous before God by obeying His law, for the law demands perfect obedience for our justification – our right standing before Him – and no sinner can obey God perfectly. Hoping even a little in our good works of obedience puts us under the Lord’s curse (vv. 10, 12). Our only hope is to trust Christ alone. In so doing, we are redeemed by His death from God’s curse for breaking His law, and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to our account, making our standing before the Lord all of grace (vv. 11, 13-14).
Attempting to earn our right standing before God is the stance of pride, the arrogant assertion that our sin-tainted good works can meet His perfect standard. It is not the stance of faith, which rests wholly in Christ alone for His righteousness.
Coram Deo
We can say with certainty that the one temptation that all people have in common is the temptation to believe we can make ourselves right with God, that our efforts, even when done with His help, are good enough; rather, we are to be perfect (Matt. 5:48). That means that only Christ’s perfect righteousness can suffice to put us in a right relationship with the Father. We must trust in Him and Him alone.
From Ligonier Ministries and R.C. Sproul. © Tabletalk magazine. Website: www.ligonier.org/tabletalk. Email: [email protected]. Toll free: 1-800-435-4343.
*Justification: “a forensic (legal) term related to the idea of acquittal, justification refers to the divine act whereby God makes humans, who are sinful and therefore worthy of condemnation, acceptable before a God who is holy and righteous.” (Grenz, Guretzika & Nordling, Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms)
Look, if someone comes to Christ in faith trusting Him for their salvation and then spends the rest of their life focused on trying to keep the commandments, I’m cool with that. But let me just say, that’s not the way I choose to live-out my Christian life; focused on trying not to sin. I prefer to live a transformed life based on my faith in Christ led by the Spirit of God.
If someone comes to Christ in faith and wants to believe that if they go over the line regarding their behavior they lose their salvation, I’m OK with them believing that also.
I think people have to find a religious tradition within the Christian family that makes sense to them and is within their personal comfort zone. If commandment focused, adherence to group mores with sanctions for violations is someone’s deal, I say “Go for it!”
But here’s the deal, I’ve observed Christian groups that are heavy into law keeping and have all sorts of strict rules on various aspects of it and I wouldn’t touch them with a ten foot pole. It’s not my thing because I’ve seen what this sort of approach does to people. They are either over-wrought or full of pride or always looking for the exception or escape clause in the rules. They are self-righteous finger pointers. That’s my observation.
It’s all about our walk and how we live out our commitment to Christ.
Catty, I have no problem interpreting that story with ensuring we work. However, one aspect of that work is that God gives us strengths that we are to use, and we ought to use them.
However, I have to ask if you have considered that every single Christian here will say that following Christ is work! Yes, we have to act a certain way and do certain things if we believe in Christ. It follows faith that we do so.
However, doing those things has nothing to do with our salvation! None, zip, zilch.
MJP
WHAT!!!!!!!!
“……….doing those things has nothing to do with our salvation! None, zip, zilch.”
It’s our faith that gets us saved, right? Isn’t it our behavior i.e. commandment keeping, good works that keeps us saved, right? If we don’t keep the commandments, let’s say we are a habitual adulterer, we lose our salvation, don’t we? Or if we rack up a bunch of minor violations isn’t out salvation in jeopardy?
Christ’s atoning sacrifice is only effective if we keep the commandments; isn’t that true? Why are all these people going forward to “rededicate” if they haven’t gone over the line? Then when the pastor of the church sends in his report card to the main office he can report “six saved, four rededicated”.
I don’t know? I was under the impression that Jesus simply made it possible for us to be saved if we were good moral people who kept the commandments. I remember as a kid going over to church to confession every Thursday afternoon, taking out my “Examination of Conscious” pamphlet and going through each of the commandments with all of the sub-headings so when I went into the box I’d be sure to have covered everything.
This was a pretty detailed little self interrogation system. Then when you got into the confessional, the priest would shake you down a little bit more. After you had given it all up, you said an act of contrition while he gave you absolution. Then you went and did your penance. This was usually to say five Hail Marys or maybe three Hail Marys and four Our Fathers. We use to ask each other, “What did you get?”
Now that was a good system for dealing with sin. If you withheld a mortal sin from confessing it, you went further down the tubes.
Yup, Jesus made it possible for us to be saved if we did everything right and you never knew if you were getting into heaven anyway. Oh, I forgot purgatory which is a whole other topic!
Falcon, I know. Shocking. But to some it is difficult to grasp, and that’s OK.
Yet my challenge for someone to come in and say that being a Christian is easy remains. I’d love to hear from someone saying they are never tempted, or never sin, or never struggle with any aspect of living a Christian life. All these things are those things that the law helped us with, no doubt.
MJP
Wait a minute, mister. You mean what the Law couldn’t do, as weak as it were in the flesh, Christ did by condemning sin in the flesh? What’s that about?
I’m always interested in how people work out their theology. That is, what does it look like in the person’s everyday life, their pronounced theology. I admit, it bugs me when I see Christians doing these that in my Catholic training, they shouldn’t be doing. You have to understand, one thing that Catholic school of my era did was teach morality. I can strain gnats when it comes to every jot and tittle of the law. I add up the bill in the restaurant to make sure they charged me enough. But I’ve trained myself to live my life another way.
Can you imagine what focus on morality and the commandments does to a person suffering from obsessive compulsive disorder? Catholics of my era were trained to be obsessive compulsive about sin. It’s just no fun quite frankly.
So I guess in some ways it’s a function of our personalities and culture, how we work out our salvation.
Precisely.
I view Christian theology this way: our salvation is in our faith in Christ, fully and completely. Nothing we can do will ever add to that salvation, ever. However, as Christians, we are to live out our lives as representatives of Christ, for who would want to come to a religion where no one does what the religion says. Further, we are not to sin, which is what our religion says: no sinning! However, it is impossible not to sin. We can limit it, but can’t eliminate it. We will break the rules somewhere along the line. But in Christ, we are covered. We don’t need to go out and slaughter a sheep to ask forgiveness because the ultimate sheep has already been slaughtered. This slaughtered sheep just wants us. That’s it; that’s all. He does not want our works– he wants our hearts.
Now, as to living an every day life, we all have different levels of tolerance as to what keeps us in Christ. Weak v. strong Christians. Its not a statement of judgment whether someone is weak or strong, but a level of tolerance. Drinking alcohol is a great example: some can drink without issue, others have real problems with it. Drinking a beer or two from time to time is not something explicitly outlawed in the Bible, old or new testaments, but some people have a hard time with it. Some people have real, serious problems with drinking. Those who can drink without issue are strong Christians, but they should limit their drinking to those who have issue with it (the weak Christians).
Of course, there are things that are simply off limits, but many things are not very clear. The aim of the Christian should ultimately keep people, especially brothers and sisters in Christ, from falling in these not-so-clear areas. We are told one of the the worst things someone can do is to cause a brother or sister to fall.
So, our goal in living our lives as Christians is to uplift each other. This can be very difficult. But the relationship to the OT law is such that Christ became the spirit of that law. The law was there to keep people in God, and Christ keeps people in God. Christ is God, and so when you are in Christ, you are in God.
Causing someone to sin is something God would not do, so we are not to do that. When we fail, though, we are forgiven.
Easy, right? Of course, one way of getting to all of that is to say that we are dead to sin, as we are alive in Christ. The two are not compatible.
Catty Jane,
You said,
So why does that same process not apply when you guys are talking about “law”? When the majority of the other scriptures in the Bible speak about the “law” being good for us (10 commandments: Not the law of sin and death which is sacrifice), you guys want to call it a curse.
I say
This is a good question. The overriding context of the of the Bible (of universe really) is the Gospel. That is the lens that we look at those passages through.
The law is only a curse when it is compared to or tries to take the place of the Gospel. I study the law fervently and I love it deeply. Not because it has merit of it’s own but because it points me to Christ. It’s like a beautiful picture of the Messiah.
That was it’s intent from the beginning. It was a trusted guardian to lead us to Christ. Jesus came to fulfill the law, all of it including the ten commandments. Where did you get the idea that the Law can be cut up into categories some of which are binding while others are not?
quote:
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
(Gal 5:14)
and:
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law ……………………………until all is accomplished.
(Mat 5:18)
end quote:
A fulfilled law is the greatest blessing imaginable. A unfilled law plus my sin is a horrible curse over my head.
The problem is the world is full of people who want to be teachers of the law but who don’t even know it’s purpose.
quote:
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions………………
end quote:
did you get that the problem arises when folks swerve from focusing on Love flowing from a pure heart and go down the road of vain discussions
now catch this it’s very important
quote:
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
(1Ti 1:5-9)
end quote
I would really suggest you read the book of Hebrews it spells this all out so clearly
peace
Fifth Monarchy Man:
Matthew 25 has nothing to do with belief and it has nothing to do with money. It was about the men taking advantage of the opportunities available to them to increase what the Master had given them. All three had the opportunity to invest the talents but only two chose to take the risk. The first two could have walked away and did the same as the third but they chose to take the risk and make the investment and serve the Master as they were expected to. The third man figured that he wouldn’t do any work for the Master and as long as he returned what was given to him by the Master that would be enough. There is a good comparison in Luke 19:11-26. You can see in the beginning that vs 14 says “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king’.” In verse 27 it says “but those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them-bring them here and kill them in front of me”. So you can see that the wicked servant never served the Master to begin with. He thought he could just show up when the Master returned and have nothing to show for what the Master entrusted him with. He thought he could outsmart the master, or outsmart the King, as it was in the story in Luke. If we serve the Master and we serve the King we will want to increase his Kingdom. We will delight in the tasks that the Lord puts in front of us. We will want to accept and act on the opportunities to shine the light into this world and proclaim his name by giving to the poor, caring for the fatherless, mending the sick and loving one another. You say that to accept redemption is free, but that is not entirely true. It comes at a cost. Sometimes it is very difficult to do what is right, but if we are in service to the King and the Master and we are given an opportunity to show how a servant of the Most High God behaves when the deck is stacked against us than we are expected to do that. We are expected to lay aside what will bring US gain and take the risk to do what will bring the Master gain. This is NOT about money, or belief. God has no use for money and belief is empty if it does not include action. This is about action and using what God has given us to bring glory and increase to His Kingdom. The word talent here is meaning a gift or skill. To whom much is given, much is required.
Falcon:
Yes these parables are all talking about how people will be judged by the Master/King when He comes to bring judgment. The beginning talking about “not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down” is speaking about the destruction of the second temple that was going to occur in 70AD. He says that many will come and say “I am Ha Moshiach, The Messiah”, which we know to be true. Bar Koziba is one of the most well known people to claim that he was the Messiah. He led over 200,000 soldiers in the great revolt of the Jewish people against the Romans between 132 and 135 CE. He reigned for 2 ½ years and then told the rabbis that he was the Messiah. All the sages of his generation considered him to be the Messianic king until he was killed because of sins and after his failed revolt that led many to death and destruction he was ruled out as the promised Messiah. So he is warning, to not be led astray and fall into service under false instruction. We are to know who we are to be in service to and not be led astray to serve another.
Response to your other comment: “Look, if someone comes to Christ in faith trusting Him for their salvation and then spends the rest of their life focused on trying to keep the commandments, I’m cool with that. But let me just say, that’s not the way I choose to live-out my Christian life; focused on trying not to sin.” It can’t work like this according to the NT John 14:21-23 and 1 John 2:3-6 and Romans 2:13 and Galatians 5:19-26.
Rick B:
Matthew 22:37-39 Notice it says ALL the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments. In the Ten Commandments the first four deal with how we come before God and the last six are how we deal with eachother. So he simply stating that all the commandments are important! He didn’t waste His breath in stating any of them at Mt. Sinai.
John 14:21-23 If we love Him we will obey his teachings. Messiah did not teach anything that was outside of the Torah (first five books of instruction).
1 John 2:3-6 If we know him than we obey his commands. If we claim to live in him than we must walk in obedience.
Romans 2:13 We cannot just be hearers of the law but we must also obey. It is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
Galatians 5: 19-26 Those who live in these sins WILL NOT INHERIT the kingdom.
James 2:14-26 Luvinlife already explained this
Matthew 5:17-19 Explains itself. He came to EXPLAIN them and bring meaning to them!
MJP:
You said, “However, doing those things has nothing to do with our salvation! None, zip, zilch.”
I think I agree and disagree with this statement. I agree if I am trying to weight my good works against my bad works in order to earn my inheritance into the World to Come than I would say that is wrong. If I tell God, “ok you do it and I will just sit back and reap the benefits”, than that cant be good either. He is my Master and My King. If I am in service as one who has chosen to become a slave forever because the Master is a Good Master, than I must also obey and do as He instructs me to. Exodus 21:5-6
He does want our works but not to glorify ourselves but to bring about His Kingdom. To bring redemption into this world by not bearing his name falsely. He wants us to care for one another and do it in His name. To not turn a blind eye to those in need when we have been given more than we need. He does what works but only those that are not done out of selfishness and pride. And when we do good works we don’t shout it on the mountain top in order to bring glory to ourselves, but we do it in silence so that it only brings glory to God. Matthew 6:1-4
Cattyjane,
were saved by grace, not by works lest we will boast.
I understand about the law and the prophets hanging on those two. But first off as I stated, grace preceded the laws.
Then if we love God and our neighbor we will do those things out of love, not a check list of do’s and dont’s.
hey catty,
I like your last couple of posts. You seem to be moderating your tone a little bit. I give a hearty amen to each of your scripture references though I might nitpick some of your commentary.
It is as simple as this you obey Jesus because of what he has done for you not to get him to do something for you.
When I discuss this with Mormon friends they often tell me that I get needlessly hung up on the internal motivations when what is really important is how we both can live good moral lives
They have it exactly backwards
They get hung up on what you can see on the outside while what is really important is the internal motivations.
If you truly understand the Gospel good works will follow necessarily . Not because you are focused on good works but because you are focused on doing what your beloved desires.
Jesus is not your savior unless he is your Lord but he is not you Savior because he is your Lord.
did you catch that??
If he is your savior it is because he loved you and gave himself up for you while you were still lawless and in the gutter
If the Holy Spirit is inside of you you will live according to the Messiah’s law just because it is in your nature to do so.
There is a saying in evangelism
“What you win them through is what you win them to”
I want to win them to Christ
The focus needs to be in Jesus and his Gospel from the first to the last
peace
fmm,
Let’s see, internal motivated by the Spirit or external controlled by a moral code of some kind. Paul talked about people starting in the Spirit and then what. They went back under the Law. He was not impressed. He asked them if they were prepared to keep the whole Law. Of course this was the Mosaic Law which Jesus completed.
What we see with some religious groups is that they create some sort of church law. I remember as a kid we would talk about what people/kids in the various groups could “do” or “not do”. It went from not drinking alcohol, playing cards, to being able to dance or not dance. Do I hear the theme song from “Footloose”?
That’s just a few examples. In my era it was a big deal. Being Catholic would could drink (not to drunkenness), play cards (and BINGO), dance. We couldn’t eat meat on Friday, had to go to confession and communion at least once a year at Easter and go to mass on Sunday. These are shortened lists. We also had the Legion of Decency which rated movies.
God said he would write His Law on our hearts. So those of us who have come to Christ in faith and desirous of leading a godly life aren’t going to need a list of prohibitions. We should come to the point that God’s Law is perfected/made clear in us through the Spirit. This is internal motivation.
Falcon,
I know what passage you are referring to when Paul was condeming them for going back under the law. If you notice they were offering a sacrifice. He wasnt condeming them for trying to be obedient but for offering a blood sacrifice after the Messiah had already given that sacrifice.
Cattyjane, how do you brings laws back into things when Jesus clearly said we only need to believe, he told the religious leaders its not works. Why would Jesus forget to mention all the works when asked, or simply agree with the religious leaders?
Also if it says we are saved by grace not of works lest we boast then it seems if we do works to save ourselves or play any part in adding to what Jesus did then we will run around and boast and brag, look what I did. How do you deny grace and bring works into it after that?
Catty,
Be careful not to transpose works and salvation. Salvation is apart from works. Works are to be done after we believe. As others have said, it comes with the territory. As you have said, we work to bring others to him. We work humbly and without pride. But we don’t work to earn salvation; that is given to us freely upon belief.
Cattyjane,
remember the parable of the men going into the field to work? Some go early in the morning, some in the afternoon, some in the very last hour, yet they all get paid the same?
That’s our salvation from Jesus, some come to Christ early in life, others the last minutes of life. Some do more than others due to coming to Jesus early verses late, but at the end of it all, by grace we all recive the same thing, eternal life in Jesus. Works do not add or take away from that, otherwise we would boast and brag, then we might as well tell Jesus, move over, I did this on my own with little to no help from you. It simply does not work that way.
cattyjane
I don’t know about that. Are you sure? It seems to me that a lot of what Paul was saying had to do with circumcision.
So I’m curious. What Laws are you proposing to keep?
cattyjane
I’m more than a little confused trying to understand what you are proposing. Is this it?
“There are Christian teachers of repute who consider the Mosaic law to be the present-day rule of life for the Christian.1 A view not infrequently found among earnest, orthodox believers is that although we are not saved by the law, once we have been justified by faith, then the Mosaic law becomes our rule of life. Those holding such a view generally make a sharp division of the Mosaic law into two parts, which they distinguish as the moral and the ceremonial. The ceremonial portion they consider as having found its fulfillment in Christ at His first advent, and thus as having now passed away. But the moral portion of the Mosaic law, say they, is still in force as the believer’s rule of life. The treatment given to Christian ethics by some highly respected authors is indeed but little more than an exposition of the Decalogue.”
I think this is what many of us are saying:
“Grace becomes an absolutely inseparable part of the believer’s life in Christ. In the coming of Christ and His death on the cross, the Mosaic Law as a rule of life was terminated. The believer is now to live in the liberty and power of God’s grace by the Spirit, not the rule of law. This new liberty must never be used as an occasion to indulge the flesh or sinful appetites (Gal. 5:13) nor does it mean the Christian has no moral law or imperatives on his life, but simply that he or she is to live righteously by a new source of life as asserted in Romans 8.”
“But a great deal of confusion exists over the issues of law and grace and the place of the Mosaic law in the New Testament believer’s life. However, the basic principle is that the “fusion” of law and grace brings a “confusion” which results in sterile legalism. Because of man’s natural bent toward either legalism or license, the place and function of the Law has been an issue in the Christian community since the very early days of the church. There have always been those who have sought to put the Christian back under the Law or make the Law necessary for both salvation and sanctification. As a result large sections of the New Testament are written directly to this issue (see Acts 15 and the council at Jerusalem; Romans 5:10; 6:14; 7:1f; 2 Cor. 3:6-18; and the entire book of Galatians). These passages were written against a legalistic use of the Law, one which promotes works to gain points with either God or people; works of self-effort rather than a life lived by the power and personal leading of the Holy Spirit.”
https://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament
I guess I’m fine with it, if you want to put yourself under the Law. But understand, I’m not going there. As long as we both have received Jesus as our Savior, putting our dependance on what He did for us on the cross as total payment for our sins, how we choose to carry-on our Christian life is a personal issue.
As we used to say in the 60s, “Don’t lay your trip on me.” In-other-words, your choice is for you alone and not prescriptive of what I or anyone else should do.
Hey cattyjane,
Lets step away from the weeds shall we
The exact relationship Old Covenant Law to the New Covenant is an issue that Christians disagree about.
We all agree that works do not save and we all agree that the life of the Christian is to be characterized by obedience to God’s commands.
The details of how this works itself out are disputable matters. This is probably not the best place to work that all out.
I’ve heard the arguments you are making about there being divisions in the law and long attempts to define what part of the OC is still binding on us and what is not.
I find find such arguments to be unconvincing and ultimately disrespectful ans dismissive to the Law.
It’s like you are placing yourself in judgement of the Law calling this precept moral and that one ceremonial. In my opinion all of God’s law is moral and all of it is sacrificial in that it all points to Christ and his sacrifice.
But I won’t place my convictions on you. I just ask that you be on the look out for creeping legalism and arrogance
peace
Fifth Monarchy Man ,
well said .
Catty is still in the O.T. and apparently has’nt come to discover who Jesus is yet . Until then
she is only going to offer people what the O.T. provides for sinners . But when she comes all
the way and personally meets the risen Savior, the ultimate King of Israel , then she will
discover that God has a new ” Way ” to reconcile sinners unto Himself — Jn 14:6 ; Acts 4:12 .
We will keep praying for her .
” way ” — Jn 14:6 ; Acts 4:12 .
Mike,
I’ve been under the impression that cattyjane has come to Christ in faith. I believe she posted that some time ago.
If she’s locked into the OT and the Law I guess that’s her comfort zone. It’s an interesting choice.
There are a lot of people who have this sort of approach and believe that it is what is accurately taught in the Bible. They are sure, absolutely convinced this is what the Christian life should consist of.
Now this doesn’t appeal to me as I think it’s clear from my previous posts. I am more comfortable focused on Christ in me than the Law outside of me. Do I need the Law? Not really. I believe what God said about writing His Law on my heart. That is we internalize God’s moral will.
So I’ll cut cattyjane some slack.
Falcon, you said , ” I’ve been under the impression that Cattyjane has come to faith
in Christ.”
I don’t remember anything she has said that would confirm that . Perhaps she will tell us if
She has in fact accepted Jesus to be her Savior .
I think I mentioned in one of my above posts that it takes time for some ex Jw’s to discover
who Jesus is and bow at His feet confessing Him as personal Lord . Same for Mormons who
have believed in the Mormon Jesus and the Mormon gospel . Our patience towards these
precious people is vital .
We need to extend to catty patience , because God does .
She has said so in the past. Recently she told us she has no reason not to believe Christ is the Messiah. I don’t know her heart and won’t judge, but I think she is at least well on her way to believing Jesus is her messiah. To some extent her position reminds me of Pascal’s Wager. This is a fine place to be.
Catty, I wonder how much of the Mormon paradigm still affects your theology, though. As I have said in the past, the only thing that matters is giving your heart to Christ, and not relying on works for your salvation. If you feel it necessary to work, have at it. There is nothing wrong with relying on works to keep one grounded in faith. The difference is, though, that relying on those works for Christ’s blessing and salvation is not going to get you anywhere. He can’t love you or bless you more than after you give your heart to him– they add nothing to your place in God’s kingdom. Once you believe, he’s already prepared a room for you.
Yes, we are told that God also will store up treasure for us. I have no idea what that treasure is, but I also don’t care. That’s not my goal and aim. My goal is to serve the Lord in full humbleness and gratitude.
I am a child of God, and can’t do anything to warrant more love from him– just as I can’t love my children any more than I do now. The things I provide my children are separate from the love I have for them. Just the same, whether they succeed or fail in any given area, my love does not grow or recede. Might I be more proud of them for achieving success? Or disappointed when they fail? Of course, but that is separate from the love I have for them. In short, no matter what they do I love them the same, whether proud or disappointed, because they are my children.
The same is true of God, who adopts us into his family. We become more than adopted children, and receive all the love God can give us. That will never change, no matter what we do, good or bad. If we try to do good just to win God’s favor, we act out of pride and not in the comfort of God’s family, which is defined by love. If we try to do good so that we can ensure we don’t sin or cause others to sin, and not out of pride, that is a different story.
This does end up a very deep issue. I’ve tried to bottom line it, as have others. That bottom line is that our works don’t matter much in God’s kingdom. Only faith matters much. Works may have a place in God’s kingdom, but they have nothing to do with who gets in.
MJP
One of our former posters, Jack Garcia, said that it took him five years to get the Mormonism out of his head. He also said it was difficult because there was a time after leaving the LDS church that he wanted Mormonism to be true despite the fact that he knew it wasn’t. Sandra Tanner talked about her and Gerald’s journey out of Mormonism. She said it took time and counseled patience with those on the exit path. Andy Watson told me about an ex-Mormon couple who would show-up at his church toting their BoM. Go figure!
There are Christians into all sorts of expressions of their faith that I don’t get. There are groups that want to be what I’d call “pseudo-Jews”. There’s the “name it claim it” bunch. It goes on and on; people who hold to the basics of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice but are off on nefarious spiritual journeys.
I can say, like I have several times on this thread, that I don’t focus at all on the commandments. I focus on Jesus and my behavior is a result of my faith, trust and confidence in Him. It just works a lot better for me. Focusing on the Law and which portions we are suppose to adhere to is not my thing. To me, Paul made it pretty clear regarding our salvation and spiritual walk. It had nothing to do with the Law.
There’s a saying I’m fond of. It goes, “If I tell you something, you may doubt me. But if you say it, it’s true.”
What this is saying is that we are convinced often by our own arguments, feelings or perhaps study. In many ways we create our own reality.
Look how we pile-up evidence that the Mormon system is a false religious system. We come at it from a myriad of ways, but yet LDS folks have to find it out for themselves. It seems to me that few, if any Mormons, leave Mormonism/LDS sect based on what we tell them. Most leave on their own initiative after doing the research themselves.
So with our friend cattyjane, she has to find her own way to whatever destination God is leading her to. I remember what Paul wrote to the Philippians, “For I am confident of this very thing. He who began a good work in you will perfect it in the Day of Christ Jesus.”
Falcon, ultimately, I am in full agreement with you. I happen to generally be a ‘strong’ Christian who loves a good beer. Nonetheless, I have to recognize some people really do need more structure. I think that’s just fine. While I don’t hear you saying anything different, I’m just clarifying my thoughts.
Yes, some people, even though they share the basics of the faith really have different takes on Christianity. It becomes a question of defining a Christian. I don’t want to go that direction here.
As to the question of the law and faith, faith wins. The law is satisfied within the context of faith.
As to ex-Mormons needing time to figure things out, I have to believe that is true. Its a major shift, and it cannot be easy or natural to just let it all go without some adjustment. As I’ve said in a recent thread, our aim should not be to convince Mormons, or even unbeliving ex-Mormons, Christianity is more right, but to bring them to know Christ in a real and personal way. There is a difference, and patience has to be key.
MJP
Perception does become a person’s reality.
I’m heavily linked to justification by faith through God’s grace. I didn’t come to Christ because I wanted a behavioral make-over and thought the Law was just the ticket. I came to Christ when I realized that I was a sinner, that Jesus was God incarnate, that He died for my sins and by confessing faith in Him I would be granted eternal life by the Father.
I lived under the Law as a Catholic. I rejected the Law because it led to a legalistic approach to religion which exposed the hypocrisy of the religious system promoting it.
We’ve all said this until we’re blue in the face. We are transformed behaviorally due to our faith in Jesus not because we try and obey the Law. If the Law was sufficient to save us, Christ died needlessly. What the Law couldn’t do, weak as it were in the flesh, Christ did.
I must admit a certain amount of frustration here but then, as they say, different strokes for different folks.
Falcon, I’m with you. I agree. I especially like your statement about Christ dying needlessly if the law could do it. My concession to the works side of it is that some folks simply need structure to stay focused. Thats fine as long as they don’t expect anything from it.
I’ll see if I can find some old sermons on this topic from my old church. OK, almost the same topic. Specifically about the grey areas in the Bible, but discusses this topic.
Folks……………….
It’s kind of interesting. The Lord led me to read in John 8 tonight where they bring the woman caught in adultery to Jesus and they quote the Law of Moses where she was to be put to death. I think we all know the story about who should throw the first stone and Jesus telling the woman that He didn’t condemn her and she should go and sin no more.
So anyway I checked one of the notations that led me to Leviticus 20. God starts out with quite a statement in Leviticus 20:7-8. The penalties were pretty severe for breaking the law; try being put to death.
Is this what we as Christians are to do? Look at Leviticus 20:13. According to this men who have sex with men should be put to death, but they aren’t the only ones of course.
I don’t know? Those who want to go under the Law are going to have to find someone who is going to carry out the penalties. I don’t really think that’s what Jesus was about in the NT.
However that’s what Brigham Young was about with his doctrine of Blood Atonement. Some sins can’t be forgiven, according to the “prophet”, so the sinner has to pay with his/her life. Out in Utah in the mid-1800 Brigham could get away with that. Has the LDS church received a revelation concerning this.
I can’t find the Laws in Leviticus relating much to the NT bought in the blood of Jesus Christ. Paul got more than a little testy with those wanting men to be circumcised. He basically said they should go all the way and castrate themselves. That’s pretty strong.
But some people like harshness, condemnation and severe penalties. I’m glad Jesus took the penalty for sin on Himself so I don’t have to suffer.
I guess this discussion on “justification” has been good for more than one reason. It caused me to take a look at Leviticus again, something I probably would have never had done. Those are some pretty severe penalties!
When you think about it, our sin condemns us to death. Our proclivity for the flesh leads us to all kinds of sinful acts which go against God’s nature, which is absolute holiness.
But…………………..God had a plan because He knew His people couldn’t/wouldn’t keep the Law. They were all time biggest backsliders, then they’d repent then; well you know the cycle.
So God said that he had a better way. He did for us what we couldn’t do for ourselves. He made the perfect and lasting sacrifice for sin. He made a New Covenant not like the old one. With this one His Law/moral code was no longer written on tablets of stone but on the hearts of those who would come to the Messiah in faith receiving the free gift of eternal life that He offers.
It’s reassuring to know that as we walk in the light as He is in the light, the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. There is nothing to be earned in the realm of salvation that God hasn’t already done for us.
Praise His Holy Name.
Amen, Falcon. I read in Acts last night about how Peter’s dream of the sheet told him not to worry about what to eat. Peter was told: “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” He had been concerned about breaking the law.
It is beautiful that our God meets us where we are, and that we don’t have to anything to meet him. He comes to us. We can’t do anything more than that.
I wanted to share my experience about how I became born again in hopes that it will shed some light on what I have been trying to explain. During a time of deep frustration with LDS Church history I was hit with an overwhelming thought to stop looking at Church history and just read the New Testament like a child with no preconceived notions. I did this and what followed was life changing. While reading the new testament I came to a spiritual understanding of some very important truths. I had been told these before, but again this was the holy ghost speaking understanding to my spirit. Without a proper understanding of these truths no one can be born again. This is what makes witnessing to mormons so difficult. Their doctrine makes it impossible to understand what I learned, and you have to totally purge it from your mind. What I came to realize was that the God of the Bible was so much more than what I ever could have imagined. He was never a human, but an eternally existent being whose holiness, righteousness, mercy, justice and love were limitless. Trying to comprehend these traits left me with a sense of aw. I also came to realize my own sinfulness and just how far from God’s Holiness I was. As a mormon I thought I was a pretty good guy, but when the Holy Ghost shined his light on me I saw just how sinful my life was. It was more so in my thought life and my motives for my actions. It was then and only then that I understood why my only hope was Christ. It was then that I let go of my own good works, my righteousness, or my faith in a church and fell down at the foot of the Cross. I put my faith in Christ alone, realizing that he was my only hope. I was born again. The old me died. My thoughts, my desires, my goals, they all changed. I became very sensitive to sin. Now when I sin the Holy Ghost immediately convicts me of it and I repent, ask forgiveness and go to God in prayer asking for His help in overcoming my struggles. I immediately had a desire to be Holy, and to triumph over sin in my life. I wanted to live a life that was pleasing to God, and walk as closely with Him as I could. It took me a while to understand how to be triumphant in my pursuit of personal Holiness. Again I wasn’t doing this to earn my Salvation or to make God love me anymore, I was just acting upon the desire placed in me through my new birth in Christ. Initially when the Holy Ghost would convict me of something I would step up my self discipline and try to use my own efforts to stop doing whatever it was that I felt convicted about. I soon realized that this was the wrong approach. Self discipline is important, but it only changes behavior, it doesn’t change the Heart. I had a Heart problem that only Christ could fix. I then started to go to the Lord in prayer and ask Him for help with my problems. I stopped leaning on my own ability and started leaning on Him. I realized that my victory over sin and in pursuit of Holiness couldn’t be based on my abilities, but who I was in Christ. I also came to realize that I had the spirit of almighty God living inside of me. He has called me unto Holiness and given me the Holy Ghost as a guide. I understand that I will always suffer from the weakness of the flesh, and that sin will forever plague my life. The difference is that I no longer jump in to sin, but rather fall in on occasion. And when I do sin it grieves me, and I immediately seek forgiveness and ask for God’s help in uprooting the sinful tendencies from my heart. As a mormon when I sinned I felt like I broke a rule, but now when I sin I feel like I have broken God’s heart. I hate what He hates, and love what He loves. I am slowly aligning my will with His Will. I have no excuse because I am not relying on my own feeble abilities, but God’s. Either way I don’t need an excuse because I want nothing more than to lead a life that is pleasing to God.
My point in telling this story is this. Many professing Christians like to make excuses for their laziness when it comes to obedience and triumphing over sin in their lives. They love to quote Paul saying O wretched man, but they fail to see that he wasn’t making excuses for his sin, but rather he was grieved by his sin because of his pursuit of Holiness. He wasn’t complacent about sin, He was in war with sin and the devil. If we say with Paul, “O wretched man that I am,” let us also be able to say with him, “I press toward the mark.” Let us not quote his example in one thing, while we do not follow him in another. Take the time to read sermons from some of the old greats like Spurgeon, Wesley, Calvin, Luther, Ryle, and Tozer. They all put such an emphasis on personal Holiness. Not to earn your Salvation, but because of your Salvation. We have been set free not only from the consequence of sin, but the dominion of sin in our life. I think too many Christians in our day fail to understand the consequences of unrepentant willful sin in their lives. They fail to realize that by themselves they are indeed miserable sinners, but in Christ they have been given victory in this life. You can’t claim Christ as your Lord yet still serve Satan by justifying sin in your life. They don’t yet understand the difference between our positional Holiness that is imputed to us through Christ, and the personal practical Holiness that we have been called to in Christ. Christ saved us to be Holy, not to live in sin. I urge those that quote Ephesians Ch 2 and use it as an excuse for laziness in their pursuit of Holiness to move on into the rest of Ephesians.
Ephesians Ch 4:
7 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Falcon said that its not about his outward actions but his Heart. I say that your outward actions are a direct reflection of your heart. Someone who isn’t saved may very well appear to bear fruits and yet still not be saved, but someone who is saved can never not bear fruits. If the spirit is in you then He won’t be still. When it comes to the fruits of the Spirit it’s important to remember that we do not produce this fruit ; He is “the true vine” (John 15:1). We merely bear fruit when we are in Christ Jesus through faith. If you are grafted into the vine through faith you will bear the fruits of the vine you are grafted into. My point here is not to condemn, but to encourage. If what I have said is painful, I apologize, but I speak the truth. Examine your life and see if there is evidence of your adoption. Are you victorious over sin in your life? If not, then lean on Christ, but never allow sin to remain unchecked. Holiness isn’t legalism. Holiness is God’s will for our lives. Might I also suggest a great sermon by John Wesley titled “Holiness is not Legalism” http://endtimepilgrim.org/holiness.htm
I wanted to add something I forgot to say in my previous post. Personal Holiness isn’t perfection. Holiness isn’t reaching the mark, it is reaching for the mark. We will never reach it in this life. When you look at your own life, don’t get caught up on where you are on the path of sanctification, but rather what direction you are heading.
For those of you who may think that the sermon I linked above by Wesley was not reformed enough then I will include a great article that outlines John Calvin’s teachings on Justification and Sanctification. It actually compliments my argument for why you shouldn’t just tell half the story when it comes to Salvation. Below is a small excerpt from the article.
http://www.depositsoffaith.com/papers/Calvin%20on%20Sanctification.pdf
In his treatise on justification by faith in Book Three of Institutes, Calvin speaks of a
“double grace” that we receive “. First, being reconciled to God through Christ’s
blamelessness, we have in heaven instead of a judge, a gracious Father; and second,
that sanctified by Christ’s spirit, we are empowered to cultivate blamelessness and purity
of life”.17 Both graces are a benefit of being in Christ. In the first place, we are justified
by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). By this Calvin means that we are declared righteous;
our sins are forgiven and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us.18 In the second place,
we are sanctified, that is set apart and made holy, that we might cultivate holiness and
purity of life.
So justification and sanctification are two aspects of one benefit imparted to us through
faith by grace. Calvin never sees these two graces as separated but inextricably joined.
Jonathan H. Rainbow notes: “For Calvin, transforming grace is always in tandem with
justifying grace”19 He cites Calvin’s comment on Romans 8:13, “Let then the faithful
learn to embrace him, not just for justification, but also for sanctification, as he has been
given to us for both these purposes, lest they rend him asunder by their mutilated
faith”.20 Because they are thus joined, both justification and sanctification are together
equally salvation. They address the dual human problem of legal guilt and moral
corruption. Calvin often refers to these as “remission of sins” and “regeneration”. As we
shall see, Calvin’s concept of regeneration is virtually synonymous with repentance and
sanctification 21
. 15
Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 2 3.2.15
16
Winecoff, “Calvin’s doctrine of mortification.,” 87
17
Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3.11.1
18
Ibid. 3.11.2 8
hey luvinlife
I Think you and I have a lot in common. I love the old Guys. In fact my nickname is taken directly from a Spurgeon sermon about being a kingdom man
I would not be surprised if we held exactly the same convictions about personal holiness. I agree that a lot of professing Christians have no visible fruit and many are not truly believers at all. I come from the Bible belt and here almost everyone you meet claims to be christian.
A pastor friend of mine often asks people he meets if they trust in Jesus as their personal savior and when they invariably say yes he looks them in the eye and says “Then how in the world can you live the way you do?”
However when I post here I don’t assume that folks claim to trust Jesus with their destiny. In fact I assume that Mormons I meet are either naively trusting in their own works or secretly despairing because they realize that their works are insufficient to save them and don’t know where to turn.
Folks like that need to hear about God’s grace for salvation apart from works. It will annoy the self- righteous and be music to the ears of the humble
quote:
Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
(Mat 11:28-30)
end quote:
Peace
Luvinlife,
Wow. I have never heard it explained exactly that way. I can relate to so much of what you said.
Fifth monarchy man,
Yes we do have a lot in common. I live in the Bible belt as well. Charles Spurgeon indeed felt the same way about personal holiness. Here is my favorite Sermon from him on the topic of personal holiness. http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2902.htm
I love to read the old greats because of their Biblical soundness. They were not concerned about tickling someone’s ear. They didn’t care about wealth, popularity or any worldly things. They had an upward gaze towards the glory of God and that’s who they cared about pleasing. By far my favorite though has been J. C. Ryle. His book titled Holiness (it’s only $1 on Kindle and I also have it on PDF for anyone who wants it) is a masterpiece. When he talks about holiness, it’s not to put you into bandage, it’s too free you. Christ freed us to be holy. When the Holy Ghost convicts you of sin its to free you from it, not condemn. Unrepentant sin in a believers life is legal territory he has given over to Satan. Satan doesn’t want us to understand the power we have in Christ to overcome sin. To be transformed into a newness of life. We all know God hates sin. Just because a person is a Christian doesn’t mean that God no longer is displeased with sin in their life. I would venture to say that it grieves Him more. Sin in a believers life destroys his communion with God. As Christians we are called to wage war against sin in our lives, however you are fighting this war not based on your own abilities, but instead relying on Christ. If we face the Devil based on our own abilities he will crush us. The devil wants us to think that we are a miserable sinner and there is no use in even trying to stop sinning. He is right about one thing, and that is that we are miserable sinners, but we’re not fighting sin based on our abilities. The devil doesn’t stand a chance against us once we realize who we are in Christ. Again I am not talking about sinless perfection here. What I am talking about is actively and tenaciously pursuing holiness in order to bring the power of God to life within us. What I have noticed in my own pursuit of personal holiness is an overwhelming display of God’s love for me. My prayers are more effective. The closer I get to God the more aware I am of my nothingness and my complete dependence on Him. I don’t wage war on sin in my life based on my abilities, but instead based on who I am in Christ. The Bible is clear. We are called to be Holy. God’s will for our life is Holiness and through His power we can be victorious over sin in our life. I thank God that He has opened my eyes to this truth and poured out His love and mercy on me so abundantly. How unworthy I am to have received His Grace!
The church I attend now I really love. I like the preacher and his theology a lot. What’s funny though is that his sermon series this month has been on Set Free. He has tried to so very softly touch on what we have been set free to be without offending anyone. He has talked about our call to be holy, but so very lightly as not to cause some one to feel obligated or something. I wish you guys would read that Sermon by Spurgeon http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2902.htm and imagine what would happen if your preacher gave that sermon at the church you attend. How would it be received? Would it offend anyone? Can you see the truth in what he says? Spurgeon doesn’t care about offending anyone or loosing attendees, simply because anyone that would be offended by that sermon isn’t truly saved and has not yet realized the gravity of their situation. He deals with the Romanist, the moralist, the professing only Christian, and the theological expert.
The thing that I am trying to drive home here is that not only do we need a balanced understanding of Salvation, we need to present a balanced understanding to Mormons or they will write us off. When I told my brother in law about justification by faith alone without telling him the whole story he wrote me off as easy believism. He said that makes no since. He knew that the scriptures commanded us to be holy and that God wanted us to be like Him. I had to regroup and help him see the whole picture so that he understood the true relationship that works and obedience have in regards to our salvation. They aren’t the cause, they are the inevitable result. I had to help him see that his obedience wasn’t a bad thing, but it was motivated by the wrong reasons. That he had to stop relying on his own abilities or the authority of a church and put his faith totally in Christ. I had to use the Law to show him why we can’t be justified by the law, and then show him how the law is only a curse to us before we come to Christ. After our regeneration and a renewing of our heart and mind done by the Holy Ghost we then can see the beauty of the law. Not for justification but for guidance in living. This is why Christ didn’t do away with the Law. He filled the demands of the law concerning our legal justification before God. The law (which can be summed up by two commandments “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'”) is not a curse to those who are in Christ, it is a way of life.
How did the leaders of the New Testament Church view the laws of God? Paul wrote, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Rom. 7:12). The Apostle John wrote, “For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous” (I John 5:3). And Christ summed up the matter, saying, “…if you will enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matt. 19:17).
CattyJane,
I came across a sermon today that I think will really help you to understand how God’s laws apply to the believer. The sermon was amazing. What Spurgeon spoke of was right inline with the experience I had during my conversion. Hang in there. Believe me there have been some things that it has really took time to wrap my head around. Remember that these understandings come when the Holy Ghost speaks understanding to your spirit. Most of the truths I have come to understand hit me when I was reading the Bible, or pondering about something on my drive to and from work. Most of the time it wasn’t something new I had read, it was the power of the Holy Ghost opening my eyes to the truth.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/2506.htm
Luvinlife,
Thanks. What got me thinking is how you said when you would make a mistake you would feel like you broke a rule but now if you sin you feel like you broke gods heart.
luvinlife said,
I wish you guys would read that Sermon by Spurgeon and imagine what would happen if your preacher gave that sermon at the church you attend. How would it be received? Would it offend anyone?
I say
I got one for you from a modern day preacher at a southern baptist youth meeting.
Check this out and tell me who he sounds like ;-}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8
I pray for the day when we see more of this sort of stuff in out churches. It’s what we need
What I think you are not seeing is that Spurgeon and Washer are addressing believers in these sermons they are not addressing the world at large.
Jesus could be brutally frank and harsh when talking to professing believers but he was gentile and loving and outrageously gracious to those who were oppressed by those who appointed themselves guardians of the Law.
that is what got him crucified
That is the attitude I’d like to emulate
peace
luvinlife,
Thanks for sharing with us about your journey from Mormonism to Jesus .
Fifth monarchy man,
I understand that these guys were addressing believers and not the world. My comments have been directed towards believers who might not yet fully understand their call to holiness. After all striving for holiness isn’t even possible until you put your faith in Christ. I would never urge a non believer to strive for holiness. My whole point was as a believer to learn to rely on the power of God to bring victory over sin in your life instead of relying on your own feeble abilities. For a non believer I would instead discuss God’s law with them and help them see that they stand condemned before a Just and Holy God. That’s one thing the old timers were adamant about. If a person doesn’t first see the disease they will never appreciate the cure. If you get someone to make a commitment to Christ before the Holy Ghost has convicted them of their sin then you will make a false convert. They will put on Christ for the wrong reasons and when persecution and trials come they will flee. It took me a while to understand that, but this is why the law is like a school master bringing us to Christ. When you hold it up to someone like a mirror they stop comparing their goodness to the world and suddenly see themselves as God does. For a long time I didn’t understand this truth and my way of sharing the Gospel was wrong.
Fifth monarchy man,
“Check this out and tell me who he sounds like ;-}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8”
Thank you soooo much for sharing that gem of a video with me. It has been the highlight of my day. I don’t care who you are and where you are in your walk with God, that sermon aught to bring some level of conviction to any ear that hears it. Amazing.
luvinlife:
Thanks for your views and your story of coming to Christ. Its not an easy road, as we will always be tempted and fall short of God’s expectations. Yet nothing we can do will ever bridge the gap between those expectations and our actions. That does not mean we sit idly by and don’t work, whatever that means in a Christian life. Our work is like fruit, as you point out. Our aim is to honor God, in all we do. And when we are in Christ, we will work and bear fruit– it comes naturally.
Falcon–
As promised, but a little late. The sermons on the Grey Areas from my old church:
http://www.mcleanbible.org/media_player.asp?messageID=40309
http://www.mcleanbible.org/media_player.asp?messageID=40310
http://www.mcleanbible.org/media_player.asp?messageID=40311
http://www.mcleanbible.org/media_player.asp?messageID=40312
Note they are in a series called “Christian Liberty” and emanate from an even larger series on the Life of Paul. The basic premise is that Christians are free, but that freedom is limited by a number of factors such as things explicitly stated in the Bible and on concerns about where and how we uphold the callings of Christ.
These are among the most influential sermons I have heard. Hard to believe they are 10 years old now… Wow.
Fifth Monarchy Man,
That video was incredible. I have to say that I wasn’t expecting that at all. I was prepared to mock it from the get go but I couldn’t. I have never in my life heard a baptist preach like that. Good for him! I hope someone learned something in that audience! I will be sharing that one on my facebook.
cattyjane said,
I have never in my life heard a baptist preach like that.
I say,
You need to get out more. 😉
Seriously this sort of preaching is not that uncommon among us baptists. You just need to know where to look,
Because we place such a high value on soul liberty and congregational autonomy you never know what you are going to hear from the pulpit when you visit a church for the first time. From what I understand it’s the opposite of highly structured Mormonism.
There are even Baptists who still hold to the Saturday sabbath.
It’s important to remember that even though Washer can preach a hard sermon like that he would be the first to proclaim that we are saved by Grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
That is my point, there is nothing in that message that conflicts with what was posted in Sharon’s original article. Just like there is nothing in James that conflicts with what Paul said.
The only difference is the anticipated audience and the individual temperament of the speaker it’s all the Gospel and the Holy Spirit will use it to the benefit of our souls.
peace
Fifth Monarchy Man,
Wait now im confused. I didn’t hear that in his message. I heard that its about changing our life and doing what is right. Loving what the Creator loves and hating what he hates. I get that we are not deserving of forgiveness because we so often fall short of meeting the standard of holiness. Even at our very best we would not meet his standard of holiness. What I heard is that even to give a little leeway in our lives to something that is outside of the Creators standard is to not be changed and not be a child of the Most High. I have heard this teaching before but not from a Baptist. I have heard that even tho we weigh sin on a scale of least to greatest, the Most High does not see it in that light at all. What is least important is also most important. So when that pastor said that we should examine our lives against how the Most High tells us to live, I realize that there are things that I allow in my life that don’t line up. There are things that I have to let go of if I am going to be able to call myself a servant of the Creator. I think it will be difficult to let go of some things because my rebellion against the Creator and his will is much deeper than I realize. From a worldly perspective these things would be nothing, but I realize from His perspective it could mean my very eternity.