Hiding Behind Skirts

Todd Wood writes,

“I am telling you guys, a real LDS general authority or better yet, an LDS apostle, needs to start blogging. Where are the bold prophets and apostles for times like these in America? Can you imagine if the prophet Isaiah or apostle Paul lived in 2008? Would they be crying out, ‘Someone hand me the keyboard! I want to share some truth unapologetically on the matter!'”

This reminds me of the way the men of the YFZ compound have for the most part used the women as the public voice of the FLDS. Instead of exercising their God-given role of leadership, they have been, as Mary Mackert put it, hiding behind the skirts of their wives. Likewise, mainstream Mormon leaders continue to, for the most part, hide behind the skirts of FAIR, FARMS, and the common layman instead of using the God-given medium of the internet to make the LDS institution’s authoritative, official voice loud and clear and unequivocal on pressing issues.

M. Russell Ballard, I’m talking to you. While you understandably call upon your membership to use the internet to spread the message of your mainstream sect, your quorum cowardly hides behind unofficial voices for the majority of compelling issues. Be a man and start wearing some institutional pants. Start a blog and put an official stamp on your posts. Allow me to suggest some topics for your initial blog posts:

  • Was God the Father potentially once a sinner? Does the mainstream Mormon sect provide rock-solid, official assurance that God the Father never sinned?
  • Are the main tenets of Spencer W. Kimball’s The Miracle of Forgiveness spiritually oppressive and unbiblical? Was Kimball correct in saying that “trying” was insufficient, and that only successful, permanent, comprehensive abandonment of sin (from practice and the desires of the mind) brings complete forgiveness?
  • Can “virgin” be redefined to refer to one who has not had relations with a mortal man, although perhaps has had relations with an immortal man?
  • Was not only the priesthood ban, but also the Curse of Cain teaching, erroneous and dishonorable to God? Why doesn’t the mainstream Mormon institution issue a public declaration unequivocally condemning the Curse of Cain teaching?
  • Was Brigham Young right to cover up Mormon involvement in the Mountain Meadows Massacre?

Praying for your repentance,


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73 Responses to Hiding Behind Skirts

  1. falcon says:

    I also wonder why the leadership of the Utah based reformed Mormon Church doesn’t speak out on these and other issues. But if they went on record they would have to take a stand and not allow the wiggle room that is part of the Utah Mormon tradition. It would also mean having to criticize the prophets of yesteryear with their well documented and often embarrassing pronouncements. The Utah LDS reformed itself at the beginning of the last century and, I think, would like to forget the behavior and prophetic utterences of the leadership before that time. They don’t seem to want to own anything that’s in the JD for example. My guess is that these good old boys, by remaining isolated, can maintain their spiritual aura by remaining silent. By comparison, they could learn from the Pope who really stepped-up to the plate when he visited the U.S. last week.

  2. “Institutional pants” lol.

  3. Michael P says:

    You know, the more I think about some of the tactics of Mormon apologetics, the more I think they rely strongly on post-modern technques. This is suspicious, because by telling people that each faith has some truth, and then by getting the burning in the bosom, you get closer to full truth, only in the same breath to say that they cannot and will not criticize other faiths, they are essentially saying the only way to know it is feel it. By extension, then, they say that truth is subjective, since after all each faith has truth and theirs is proven by an “emotion”.
    When pushed into a corner, they often answer with this, as quoted by Amanda (when asked about different responses to the burning) here: “I can’t speak for you, I can only speak for my own experiences with the spirit- your experience with the Holy Ghost is individual to you.” This answer would not be a problem, only that she added the “…your experience with the Holy Ghost is individual to you.” This answer is anything but objective, as the end indicates that the “spirit” may indeed talk to people in different ways. Only, the message given is wildly different. If its the same spirit, one would think the message would be the same, right?
    Another indication of post-modern relativism in their faith is the belief that pretty much everyone gets to heaven. Everyone is saved, regardless of faith, as long as that person doesn’t utterly reject Joseph Smith or do something else horrendous (Hitler, for instance). Of course, not not everyone reaches the celestial kingdom, the highest heaven, but the vast majority make it to the first level. Sounds like they want to please everyone, despite Biblical evidence to the contrary.


  4. Michael P says:

    part 2

    A third aspect is baptism of the dead. No chance in this life, or if you made some bad decisions? No worries, a good Mormon will baptize you in the afterlife, giving you the chance to make the right choice again. Again, this is suspicious, especially given the criticism they aim at Christians for being “lazy”. “Why try now when I’ll end up baptized after I die? I know I’ll make the right choice then.”
    Finally, and I am sure there is much more out there, evidence of faith before finding empirical evidence is absolutely a relative/post-modern thought. They seem to think that observable, countable evidence as not important. Its what you feel that is important. “You can’t tell me I’m wrong. I have felt the burning, and so all other evidence doesn’t matter.” Of course, they won’t frame the defense that way. It’ll sound better, and probably spliced with some quotes from the Bible or BoM. They’ll say evidence just hasn’t been found yet, or there’s problems with the Bible, too, and a host of other responses. Anything but directly answer the charges.

    Mormons rely heavilly on post-modern thought, I think. I would be curious others reactions to this theory.

  5. David says:


    I think you give Mormonism way too much credit. Even official pronouncements can be blown off.

    If something was said by a prophet at General Conference, so what, he still was not speaking as a prophet. I can just find a prophet who says something that I currently agree with.

    O, The Book of Mormon is giving us problems . . . well, that can be changed.

    The Bible getting in the way again? That can be chocked up to plain and precious truths that were yanked out by apostates plus translation/transmission problems with the text.

    In the cafeteria that is Mormonism, “official” is a lot less official than many people think.

  6. jer1414 says:

    So what’s the point of having a latter-day prophet speak for God, if he never does?

  7. David, point taken.

    On a related note, at General Conference I asked a bunch of Mormons the following:

    “When you come to General Conference, do you come to hear the prophet and apostles speak in the capacity of their offices?”

    Everyone answered with a resounding yes.

    I also asked, “Do you assume the things spoken of represent official doctrine?”

    Everyone, save an exceptionally liberal Mormon, answered without a resounding yes. In fact, one lady spoke up in a crowd and said, “It doesn’t get any more official than this!”

    I find the notion that Mormonism is a religion of sola scriptura or prima scriptura very problematic for dozens of reasons. I have an article on this in the works.

    A huge problem that arises from all this is a lack of integrity. If leaders don’t want Mormonism to be held as accountable for that which is said at General Conference, then they need to actively teach their members not to assume that what they hear at General Conference is representative of official doctrine[1]. My Christian pastors throughout life have often challenged hearers to test what is spoken against scripture. But you don’t hear this kind of thing actively taught from correlated curriculum or Conference speeches. The minimalist paradigm of BYU professors and apologists doesn’t generally function at a lay level, and Salt Lake doesn’t seem interested in using its influence to trickle down anything other than a dominant, traditional understanding of the “stream” of prophetic, “continuing revelation”.

    [1] Even if they did this, there still is the problem that they claim to be prophets and apostles, and scripture doesn’t give “prophets” the freedom to publicly teach outrageously false things about God, period.

  8. iamse7en says:

    “Praying for your repentance.”

    That’s like you writing a letter to Paul, back in his day, and criticizing some of his teachings, then ending it with “praying for your repentance.” Can’t believe you even have the audacity to say that Elder Ballard needs to repent of something. We all need to repent, but Aaron, you’ve hit a new low.

  9. Arthur Sido says:

    iamse7en, the difference of course is that Paul was an apostle, while Ballard is a false teacher propagating a lie. The arrogance of comparing Ballard to Paul is astounding.

  10. Can’t believe you even have the audacity to say that Elder Ballard needs to repent of something.

    This reminds me of a lunch I had with two Mormons, one a BYU professor. They wryly quipped, “Officially, Mormonism doesn’t teach prophetic infallibility. But unofficially, it does.”

  11. Berean says:

    The title of this blog thread is definitely spot-on. I assume it must have been taken from the video interview that Mary Mackert did with the TV station in Texas in which those were her words. It’s true in every sense. I saw her on a DVD entitled “Lifting the Veil of Polygamy” put out by Life After Ministries…great documentary about this whole issue. These polygamous sect leaders are a bunch of gutless wonders in my opinion. I remember seeing the local news here in Las Vegas when they brought Jeffs in after arresting him just north of town. I thought to myself, “This is the infamous prophet? This guy looks like a scarecrow in a blue jump suit. The only thing missing is the scarecrow sitting on top of his head.” Jeffs, a real tough guy…get out. This is the person that has caused so much grief and misery for many, many people and all he could do was whimper and whisper to the judge with LVMPD standing on each side of him. This must have been the same scenario when Joseph Smith was brought to Carthage Jail. The big difference here is that Jeffs will have bars on the windows and doors, the guard won’t be allowing Jeffs to drink and smoke like Joseph did and no guns will be smuggled in for Jeffs like they were for the infamous prophet Smith to kill people that try to storm the jail.

    Regarding the “Journal of Discourses”, the LDS Church will distance itself from it, but when it agrees with something they still believe in then then they will reference it. I’ve seen several references in modern LDS publications that reference the JOD.

    I also find it amusing that Thomas Monson and the apostles don’t willingly stick their necks out and say something that hasn’t already been prepared for them. They don’t have the guts to stand in front of the pulpit and pronounce prophecy. They know it would be suicide. All the while, Mormons pledge their allegiance to him with tears in their eyes. He’s just a man…nothing else…not a prophet of anything.

  12. Ralph says:

    “Praying for your repentance”

    I find comments like this amusing from people outside of the LDS church because I believe I am in God’s only true church and that it is others outside that need to repent and change their ways. I think you’ll find that M. Russell Ballard is saying the exact thing to you and has been for years.

    As for the question why don’t the apostles join in, I guess they have better things to do with their time than answer hecklers’ questions, especially when the people asking the questions will not listen to, nor accept the answers they are given. Some of the questions posed above have already been given an answer by members on this blog but most (if not all) of the non-LDS do not accept the answers because your mind-set, beliefs, ideology and interpretation of the Bible is different to ours.

    The big question is – What if the LDS church is true? Then you will not live with Heavenly Father for eternity, but spend the rest of eternity kicking yourself because you should have known better because you knew about the LDS church. If we are wrong then we will be the ones kicking ourselves for eternity.

    MichaelP, Just a quick comment about baptism for the dead – those who have had a chance in this life to hear and accept the LDS church will not get one in the next regardless of what they did in this life. So there is no second chance to right a wrong made in this life. The only ones who get a chance in the spirit world are those who did not receive a proper one in this life.

  13. clarity67 says:

    Well, it can be said once again that most of you people know not whereof you speak. To suggest that the general authorities are somehow “cowardly” or in any respect, fearful, of displaying or otherwise defending the faith truly is indicative of the ignorance that pervades the constant thread of this blog.

    These men are on constant display, everywhere they go, 24/7 without exception and are scrutinized, analyzed, and examined for the next word that may or may not fall from their lips. For any here to suggest that they are AFRAID? to put an “official stamp on something” is not only somewhat humorous, but also very revealing. The truth is that they have put the official stamp on the conference talks you refer to, but because it’s just the “same ol’ conservative approach to the gospel” and doesn’t offer you the “ammunition” you’re looking for, it’s not enough.

    Now, just because they wouldn’t give Aaron the time of day doesn’t surprise me since he exhibit’s the same desire of the scribes and Pharisees (Luke 11:52-54) not inquiring for true answers, but rather seeking a conflict or to trap or ensnare which frankly they need not endure and waste their time with. In fact, I find the same quite inspiring and insightful of them. Indeed we may observe correctly that they follow the Master whom they serve as His witnesses, not indulging in what would amount to a fruitless and embarrassing encounter, well, for Aaron that is.

  14. clarity67,

    Are you aware that some Mormons are claiming that the only true official source is the LDS canon and modernly used and emphasized First Presidency statements?

    If I was a Mormon leader, I’d certainly be embarrassed to publicly, explicitly admit that I didn’t know whether or not God the Father was a sinner in a past mortal probation. That’s not only embarrassing before man, it’s embarrassing before a holy and righteous God who will one day send angels of wrath.

    “he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” (Revelation 14:10)

    The men called apostles in Salt Lake City will drink this “cup” of God’s anger if they do not repent of their idolatry and cowardice:

    “But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

    This is serious stuff. LDS leaders should repent of idolatry and cowardice and bear fruit that is fitting with that repentance by going more public on compelling doctrinal issues.

    clarit67, repent of believing that God could have been a sinner before it’s too late, and/or repent of giving your religious allegiance to those who believe God could have been a sinner. Trust the only true God for the free gift of eternal life, and be saved.

    “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36)

    Grace and peace in Christ,


  15. augustin says:

    Ralph, please read this…

    I beg you, as one who knew the LDS church to be the true church of the restoration, test all things. The value of a soul is too great for words to communicate; and who am I to say that you or any man is condemned? Who am I to say I know truth and you don’t, and I am right? Im no one to say such a thing. I ask you though Ralph, to hold Joseph Smith accountable to the teachings of Christ. Don’t just search your feelings, but search truth. We did not live in a state of apostasy after Christ and the apostles death. Instead, we received a promise of the Holy Spirit to dwell within us in covenant with our Lord and Savior.

    Please respond, Ralph, if you have read these words. I honestly only seek truth.

    Let me know why God allowed the Bible’s original Hebrew and Greek scriptures to survive for any man to read and translate, while God only allowed one man to see and translate the plates of Moroni….

    Let me know why Joseph Smith received a revelation from God concerning plural marriage when God forbids the Israelites to have more than one wife in Deuteronomy 17. And likewise why did Our Father’s only Begotten Son teach us that pure matrimony is one man and one woman? Let me know why there was only one wife to Adam. Then tell me why Joseph Smith claimed God allowed him to partake in plural marriage.

    Let me know why God would allow us to live in a great apostacy for almost 1,800 years. Let me know why Brigham Young, a prophet of God, said that we need Joseph Smith’s consent to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

    Let me know why God took the plates (His Word) from us. Doesn’t His Word endure forever?

    Tell me why Joseph Smith was imprisoned…

    Tell me why it is so hard to find anything from the Book of Mormon here on this continent…. is looking for the evidence of Solomon Spalding’s Manuscript Found very similar to looking for artifacts of Tolkien’s Middle Earth? Or was Joseph a true revelator and translator?

  16. clarity67 says:

    Aaron, you go too far. Your inference reaches for the irrelevant while obscuring the more important truth. The God that I worship is the same today, yesterday and forever. He is almighty God and as far as I am concerned, always will be. To imply that God was once a sinner from comments made by past authorities of the Church is speculative. Go ahead and quote all the comments in your next post, I have seen them all, but they do not state emphatically that God was a sinner – that‘s YOUR inference.

    He is eternal and lives an eternal life. We do not. We are not the authority on what eternal life is like. What station He may have passed through in the past (“past” referred to loosely in an eternal sense, since it is hardly definable) is not my primary concern. What I do know is that He rules as God Omnipotent, and He is righteous and holy in His divine nature. We are His. He knows everything there is to know, for if He didn’t, He could not save any of us. Whatever His power, knowledge, and presence it far surpasses and is not worthy to be compared with any being that we encounter is this mortal state. You need not quote Isaiah 43-46 because those words are reconciled with this doctrine for indeed He is God and there is none like unto God and no God beside Him, etc. I am sensitive to the fact that the very comparison of God to man in such contrasting existence is, on the surface, reprehensible and offensive. However, we maintain that this principle of eternal progression is a true doctrine.

    To answer, yes, I am aware that some believe that only the standard works and official statements of the First Presidency are considered official. For all practical purposes, general conference addresses are considered approved as official Church doctrine as well.

  17. clarity67, notice that I said you need to repent of believing (and/or of having religious allegiance to those who believe) that God the Father could have been a sinner. I realize that Mormons are on a spectrum, with some believing he certainly was sinner, others believing he probably was a sinner, others believing he probably was not a sinner, and others believing he definitely wasn’t a sinner.

    Where are you on that spectrum? You seem to ascribe the issue to the “speculative” category. Is it really only speculation? Notice that I asked Ballard, “Does the mainstream Mormon sect provide rock-solid, official assurance that God the Father never sinned?” Of course it doesn’t, but I want Ballard to own up to it with explicit, forthright words that carry an official stamp.

    It’s not enough that God is “eternal” merely in the forward sense. God has always been eternal, God was always fully God, and God absolutely never sinned, no doubt about it, period. Any other depiction of God (even those that merely open the door to God the Father possibly having sinned) is of Satan.

    The four living creatures in Revelation 4:8 “day and night they never cease to say, ‘Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!'” You see, our worship of God encompasses not only who he is and will be, but who he always “was”. So basically what I am calling you to do is repent unto the concern that these creatures had. Instead of idolatrously narrowing your own personal “concern” in worship to who God is and will be, know this: God is “big”… way big. We dare not refuse to worship him for who he always was, for “from everlasting to everlasting you are God” (Psalm 90:2). Not, “from everlasting to everlasting you existed, and at a point in time became fully God”, but rather, “from everlasting to everlasting you are God.”

    Isaiah not only teaches that there is none like Yahweh, but also, “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me” (Isaiah 43:10). Therefore, no god was ever formed before Yahweh, and none will ever be formed after Yahweh. Not, “As man is God once was, as God is man may be.” Rather, “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.”

    So, my God absolutely never lusted, never masturbated, never coveted, never cheated on a test, never went to a single’s ward to find a date, never got married in a temple as though he needed a wife to become a god, never lied, never committed idolatry, never stole, never illegally downloaded music, never abused alcohol, never did anything that wasn’t perfect and holy. This God of mine, he flicks his finger and whole universes come into existence out of nothing. One word of his brings entire stellar constellations into beautiful existence. “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself…” (Isaiah 44:24)

    Do you worship this God? Do you know him? I’m not merely interested in you signing off on propositions. I want you to know him. Pray to this God, ask him to open the eyes of your heart to what he has revealed about himself in scripture. “Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law.” (Psalm 119:18)

    I call you to repentance in the hope that God would open your eyes, for his Spirit loves to work through the proclamation of truth and repentance and gospel (good news).

    Grace and peace in Christ, who justifies the ungodly like me by faith apart form works (Romans 4:4-8),


  18. Lautensack says:

    Ralph said, “The big question is – What if the LDS church is true? Then you will not live with Heavenly Father for eternity, but spend the rest of eternity kicking yourself because you should have known better because you knew about the LDS church. If we are wrong then we will be the ones kicking ourselves for eternity.

    Ralph, what if you’re wrong, and the LDS Church is false, you will spend the rest of eternity hating the One, True, Loving, God because He is Holy and though you know this to be true, you, in your unrighteousness, suppress the truth delighting in the err of worshiping creatures rather than the Creator. Could it be for this reason that you delight not in understanding but in perverse thinking that challenges the self-attesting Word of God? Might the reason for your unbelief not be due to the lack of factual evidence for Biblical Truth or against Mormonism, but from your refusal to submit to the authoritative Word of God from the beginning of your thinking, guised in the unstated presupposition that God could not possibly keep His Word pure?

    A wise man once said, “the greatest act of faith take place when a man understands he is not God” – Oliver Wendell Homes Jr.

    A wiser man wrote, “For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” – The Apostle Paul


  19. falcon says:

    Is there any doubt that as Biblical Christians we are in a spiritual battle with the spirit of Mormonism? The depth of deception is so deep that I often wonder why we even waste our time attempting to lead Mormons to an understanding of who the God of the Bible is. I don’t know if all of us together could fast and pray enough to break through the spiritual bondage of Mormons. Why do Mormons insist on downgrading and degrading God? What kind of a spirit does this come from. Satan has met his goal when it comes to the Mormon (corporate and individual)blaspheming of God. What a spiritual ego trip these people are on; degrading God and claiming that they too will get to be a god. When I worked with troubled youth we had a term “errors in thinking”. Mormon thinking is not only in error it comes from the depth of hell. Too strong? This is spiritual war!

  20. Michael P says:

    Spiritual battle indeed.

    It is hard to tie them down when they are so loose in what they consider doctrine. Though, I would say they are not really concerned with doctrine, but in revelation. So, what was said in the past is not necessarilly binding in the present.

    And Ralph, forgive my ignorance, but I must ask this question now: why, then, the emphasis on getting family records and the seemingly strong emphasis on saving family members? Perhaps I am mistaken in my take, but isn’t that a huge reason why you gather such family trees? Seems to me that family members, especially close ones, would know the switch to Mormonism and what it means…

  21. Michael P says:

    God as a sinner. If God progressed as we did, then it makes perfect sense to postulate he was at one point a sinner. To stand behind a stance of we don’t know is to aknowledge this truth. He might not of, sure, but chances are he did, if he was once a man.

    This is rightly a scary thought, and should be disheartening. Of course, I could see how it could be a source of encouragement to some: if God got through it, then so can we!

    But even with that, you have one who was a sinner making rules that he did not keep. Why would he do that? How would he know? Is there something bigger out there that defines what is sinless?

    Worth considering.

  22. falcon says:

    The Bible tells us that Satan disguises himself as an “angel of light”. Mormons use a lot of reverential language in referring to God but then when you ask them who God is, they have a concept that is totally the opposite of the God of the Bible. This use of reverential language and piety is part of the deception that is the spirit of Mormonism. Devout language, piety and reverance is nothing more than a beautiful mask that hides the ugly features of this false god Mormons worship. The fact that this god came to Joseph Smith (a practioner of the occult) in visions and revelations that counter the Bible should be enough evidence for anyone to know what’s going on. The spiritual pull of the dark-side is like a black hole in space.

  23. Natman says:

    Aaron, Awesome post!!! This sums up exactly what I see with Mormons, everyone has a different Idea of what Mormonism means to them, but each person expresses as this is what the church believes. I would love for the “Church leaders” to come out boldly and tell all the followers, this is what we as Mormons believe, period. Then watch the fallout.

  24. Berean says:


    Your church leaders don’t want to waste their time by attempting to answer questions when we won’t listen to their answers? I, like many others, have kept asking the same questions repeatedly and we wait for the answers and they never come either by missionaries or those higher up. I’ve done outreach evangelism at Mormon wards where I sit in on the gospel principles class and ask questions and nobody can answer them. Two weeks ago we were on chapter 1 of “Gospel Principles” and nobody could answer even the simplest of questions nor had even thought about it. Some will say that “it hasn’t been revealed yet”.

    Here are three questions for you:

    1. Who was the first Mormon god and where did he come from?
    2. Did Heavenly Father sin when he was a man before he began eternal progression and reached exaltation?
    3. Why aren’t Mormons fulfilling the commandment of Matthew 5:48? Christians today are perfect and are fulfilling that commandment because Jesus did it for us (Hebrews 10:10-18). Mormons are trying to “become”. Any Mormon who attempts to reach Heavenly Father by their own process of becoming perfect instead of taking the perfection that Jesus gives to us will lead that Mormon straight to outer darkness.

    I had a recent conversation with a Mormon and he completely agreed with the above stated position regarding Matthew 5:48 and Hebrews 10:10-18. I said, “If Jesus has already declared me perfect before the Father and not guilty and you agree with that, then what do I need the LDS Church for? What can the LDS Church do for me that Jesus hasn’t already done?”

    He was speechless. He then stated that he would make some phone calls and try to find out. I’m still waiting for his answer.

  25. Berean says:

    This issue brought up by Ralph and “what if the LDS Church is true…[Christians] will be kicking themselves for eternity” and so forth is one I find amusing because Mormons don’t realize it but this is a win-win for Christians. If Christians are wrong, then we get to go to the terrestrial kingdom by default because we lived “honorable lives”. So we don’t get to go the celestial kingdom and have endless celestial sex for all eternity. So what! I’m sure after a few years in the terrestrial kingdom a man’s sex drive will just dissipate and they won’t miss it. If our doctrine is correct, then we get to be with Heavenly Father for all eternity where there is no marriage in heaven anyway (Matthew 22:28-30).

    For the Mormon, if they are correct even then they don’t know if they will inherit the celestial kingdom or not because they don’t know if they are worthy enough or have truly been forgiven following the 5 steps of repentance. If they are wrong, then they will spend all eternity in outer darkness where the Bible says most are headed (Matthew 7:13-14). So who has the better deal? The Mormon or the Christian?

    “Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual” on page 164 states: “Those who hear the gospel in mortality and do not accept it but lead otherwise honorable lives will inherit the terrestrial kingdom. Those who do not have the opportunity to hear the gospel in mortality but accept it in the spirit world can inherit the celestial kingdom”.

    Page 166 states: “The [D&C) explains clearly that the lowest glory [telestial kingdom] to which man is assigned is so glorious as to be beyond the understanding of man.”

    If this is the state of the telestial kingdom, then the state of the terrestrial must be even more incredible. Again, another win-win for the Christian. For the Mormon, it’s a maybe-hope-so for the celestial if they are right and eternity in outer darkness if they are wrong.

  26. Ralph says:


    Why did God take the gold plates and only let one person translate them and 11 others see them? Admittedly I don’t have a ‘good’ answer for this question (at least in your point of view). Both the Bible and BoM are books of faith, thus if there is any irrefutable evidence of either being true and the word of God then it is not through faith anymore. If the gold plates were left for others to scrutinise then where is the faith? As for the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts of the Bible, we do not have any of the originals, so how do we know they are not corrupt? Sure we can find some small pieces of ones dating a few years after the supposed original writings, but the oldest we have are about 3 pieces of manuscript with at most 6 words on each from the book of Mark or Matthew (can’t remember). 18 correct words do not mean that the rest of the manuscript is totally correct. In past posts on this site 3 inclusions in the Bible have been pointed out by both Aaron and I. I have found another passage that is being discussed as to its authenticity. One side of the argument is that it’s authentic; the other says that it is an INCLUSION IN THE ORIGINAL manuscript by a contemporary of Paul, not Paul himself. So with no originals, 3 possibly 4 inclusions already known, and one possibly made on the original manuscript, can you say for sure that the Bible is 100 percent correct?

    But another answer to your question is found in the Bible – Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord

    God allowing an apostasy for 1800 years – maybe because He will not force people to believe in Him and during this time period the religious leaders chose a different path which the general populace found more enticing than the truth. A similar pattern is found in the days of Noah. All the world was described as wicked except for Noah and 3 of his sons.

  27. Ralph says:

    The plates were taken yes, but God’s word from these plates is still on the earth in the form of the BoM. But I think that when it says in the scriptures (be it Bible or other) that God’s word will endure, it means that if God says it will happen then it will happen whether it is kept in record or not. This means that the scriptures can be corrupted, but God will still keep His word. The scriptures are kept by man and as many have pointed out on this site, man is corrupt and ungodly.

    Why do we need Joseph Smith’s consent to enter the kingdom of heaven? If I understand correctly you were once a member. Do you remember that we believe that Jesus is the final judge, but He is assisted by a panel made up of the prophets of their times – eg Moses will be judging people from his time, Joseph Smith will be judging people from his time. From my understanding they will more be like a jury than judge. But the jury (and I have done jury duty) still need to make a judgement and can be classed as judges.

    Plural marriage has been discussed till the cows came home – we believe that most of the OT prophets and others (like David and Solomon) were in polygamous marriages sanctioned by God, you don’t. So it comes down to an interpretation difference of the Bible. As for Deuteronomy 17, it does not say no more than one wife, it says not to multiply his wives, so it can mean not to have too many but can have more than one.

    Why was Joseph Smith imprisoned, well I know the charges against him were things like treason, civil unrest, etc but that does not prove he was guilty. There are many innocent people in jail and on death row. So this proves nothing especially since the witnesses against him are not around to interrogate at this time.

    As for evidence of the BoM, there is some, but not much. The same can be said about the Bible, although there is more evidence available about the Bible. They are books of faith.

  28. Ralph says:


    I love it when people like you say ‘it’s a win-win for me’ according to LDS theology. The main reason for this life on earth is to get back to Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity. That being said, is the Terrestrial kingdom good enough? No it isn’t regardless of how much better it may be in comparison to this life.

    Look at it this way – imagine you were invited to a 5 day feast/party. There are 4 tables in the one room. Table 1 has all you can eat of the best and richest foods. Table 2 has breads of different kinds but nothing else. Table 3 has your least favourite food (think gag factor) and table 4 has nothing. Normally you live eating very little, kind of a cross between table 3 and 4. There are requirements for getting to each table and you hear what these are. You decide to do as little as possible to try and get to table 1 thinking that table 2 would still be good enough. Finally the day comes and you get table 2. You sit there and start to stuff your mouth with bread thinking this is so good because its better than what you had. Then suddenly you smell the aromas wafting over from table 1 right next to your table. You turn and see the feast on table 1. Then you realise that you can never get to table 1 because you were not prepared enough but you had the chance. You will spend the rest of the 5 days eating bread while watching others eating chicken, ham, mudcake, etc and you can smell it.

    Now how do you feel about making the Terrestrial Kingdom? Do you still think it would be a win-win for you? Yes it may be better than this life, but once you get back your premortal memories and understand this life, I think it will be torture for you to just make it there rather than the Celestial Kingdom.

  29. augustin says:

    Ralph, thank you for your words.

    On that subject matter I guess I can only ask this–why did God share over 130 different revelations with Joseph Smith, reveal to him the Pearl of Great Price, and the Book of Mormon, but for some reason did not give Joseph Smith the correct translations of the Bible? Wouldnt that be the characteristic of a good shepherd?

    Friend, they are not just books of faith. They are testimonies. Testimonies must be seen and heard. Seeing God’s presence is astonishing. Feeling God’s presence can be subject.

    To be fair, I ask you you to pray to God and ask Him if the Book of Mormon was really translated by Joseph Smith, or whether it was written by Solomon Spalding as a fictional novel under the title, “Manuscript Found”. Pray about that, and see what God says in your heart…

  30. Michael P says:

    Ralph, I can’t help but come back to this after reading your analogy of the tables: yours is a faith of pride and works, through and through.

    Let me highlight some things, first, you say in your anaolgy that if only you’d worked just a little harder would you get to the next table, and you hate yourself for not getting there, looking at the next with a jealous heart. Second, you the focus is on the reward. The actions are to get to the best reward, not on God.

    Now, I know you will say that it is about God, and that the works are commands. OK. If our rewards are better than where we were, why shouldn’t we be happy with that? Shouldn’t we be happy with what we are given by God? Shouldn’t we be happy to be close to God, and should anything else matter?

    I also know that your analogy is only that, but it raises questions that deserve answers.

    See, in contrast to what you believe, we believe heaven will be such a glorious place that rewards won’t matter. To be in God’s presence is all that will matter, and the sensation will be beyond description. And we get there when the Holy Spirit marks us with his stamp at belief upon Christ. There are no tables, and there are is but one requirement to be met: believe in Christ.

  31. amanda says:

    “Be a man and start wearing some institutional pants.”


    In needless defense of Christs’ apostle, Elder Ballard, I must say, I find your statement appalling.

    Aside from the fact that Elder Ballard is part of an institution that is more organized, efficient and effective than this silly blog of yours that you call a “ministry”– There are some other problems with your perception.

    I think the needed contrast is what YOUR idea of Christs’ institution is…and what it ACTUALLY is. Elder Ballards days and weeks, months and years are spent in service to Him. No man has the kind of idle time like you, Aaron, to spend gossiping about other religions and people online, especially when their days are filled with what Christ has called them to do. Your “ministry” as you call it does little for His sheep. It’s mostly a battleground where people can argue…nothing more. Elder Ballard has done more for my spirituality than this blog could EVER hope to do.

    I don’t believe Elder Ballard’s style is to bully, or judge. His is a calling of service.

    Now that I got that off my chest, I have to correct your complete misunderstanding of what Elder Ballard is asking of us. He is asking us to do our part. But in true Aaron style, you can make good things sound bad. That’s a lot like a character we’re taught about in the bible. What’s his name again??? Hmmmmm….

    I am having a difficult time respecting you, Aaron. Your inability to see good is shocking, and your complete air of self-righteousness regarding anything LDS– is foolishness.

  32. Amanda, I have listed some recommended issues a leader such as Ballard could forthrightly, definitively, officially address in public. The gauntlet has been thrown down. You can’t even speak for him or for the Mormon institution, for by Mormonism’s own standards you have no priesthood authority and you have no authority to interpret scripture for others or teach doctrine.

    As for Christ’s real church, I don’t believe the New Testament sets up a massive institutional hierarchy or oligarchy. The real church is on one level a local congregation run by elders, and on another level it is the organism of all true believers in Christ. In other words, a hypocrite can be in a local church and yet not be a part of the universal church, and a genuine believer can be a part of the universal church and yet not be a part of a local church fellowship (although that should be rare).

    I’m aware that for Mormons it comes across as “self-righteous” for anyone to openly criticize their Mormon leaders, but I don’t share your worldview. Before God I will gladly, with iconoclastic gutsiness given by the Holy Spirit, call such false teachers and cowards to account for their public sins. Your leaders are not exempt from the light of public scrutiny, and if you want the respect of the billions of angels that are watching redemptive history play out right now, then you need to trust God for the free gift of eternal life and immediate, permanent forgiveness, and stand up to wicked men with the courage that comes from knowing God Almighty.

    As I said, it is understandable that a religious leader would call his own people to participate in public discourse, but “mainstream Mormon leaders continue to, for the most part, hide behind the skirts of FAIR, FARMS, and the common layman instead of using the God-given medium of the internet to make the LDS institution’s authoritative, official voice loud and clear and unequivocal on pressing issues.”

    Amanda, repent of believing that God could have been a sinner and/or repent of your allegiance to men who believe God could have been a sinner. Receive the free gift of eternal life and immediate forgiveness, and you will be counted among the radically transformed sheep at the final judgment.

    Grace and peace in Christ,


  33. “Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest.” (D&C 71:7)

    When is the last time a Mormon leader “call[ed] upon” a religious enemy to do some public confounding? Anyone?

  34. Ralph says:


    I think you missed the first paragraph of my post. Here are the exact words “I love it when people like you say ‘it’s a win-win for me’ according to LDS theology. The main reason for this life on earth is to get back to Heavenly Father’s presence for eternity. That being said, is the Terrestrial kingdom good enough? No it isn’t regardless of how much better it may be in comparison to this life.

    Note the part in bold. The analogy was just that. Not being very good with words/English, I wrote something to show that yes we believe in 4 different places after judgement and to the outside world the middle 2 places may seem like a ‘win-win’ situation as Berean said, but in reality it isn’t. If you do not get to live with God for eternity (Celestial Kingdon for us, heaven for you) then you suffer the second death, or spiritual death for eternity. And Berean is calling this good enough for him/her. Yes the analogy is flawed but so am I. It still gets the point across.

    Then look at my last paragraph Yes it may be better than this life, but once you get back your premortal memories and understand this life, I think it will be torture for you to just make it there rather than the Celestial Kingdom. I know you do not believe in a preexistance, but we do. And if we are correct we knew before-hand what this life was all about. So when you get back these memories and understand more about this life you would realise the you should have known better. This would also be part of your mental torment for the rest of eternity. So except for the analogy (which is just that), the rest of what I wrote had nothing to do with rewards or work but living with God for eternity.

  35. Jeffrey says:

    I use to post under Jeff B., so some of you may remember my situation. I am an Evangelical Christian and my wife is born and raised LDS.

    Anyways, I attend and have been attending my wifes ward for the past 5 years. In fact, I’ve held a couple callings (the only one that can be held by a non-member which is activities committee.) This blog made me think of a message from the Bishop in a sacrament meeting a few weeks ago. Paraphrasing here, he said “LDS General Authorities have said that they have been receiving a lot of questions on doctrinal and personal issues from the members of the Church. Because of a lack of time available to address these concerns, they want those questions directed to Counselors, Bishops, and Stake Presidents.”

    If that statement didn’t fit in well with the premise of this blog, I don’t know what would. I didn’t make that up folks, you LDS probably heard the same thing.

    And Aaron, yeah. Your blog here is weak sauce. Don’t you know that the LDS church has a more organized, efficient, and effective institution han this silly blog you call a “ministry”. Who cares if the LDS church started organization in the 1800’s and this blog has only been around for a few years. You should be just as organized by now silly silly Aaron.

    In all honesty, I believe it is the little things like this blog that make bigger changes in peoples lives than some giant billboard trying to get a point across. To come across as a still small voice, is akin to that of the Holy Ghost. I applaud you, Sharon, Bill, and all others involved, with the creation of this blog. Your courage and time that you put into it is honorable, and at the same time you give all the glory to God.

    “Praise to the Man” indeed, my LDS friends. And that man is Jesus Christ. Not Joseph Smith… remember that.

  36. Berean says:

    Jeffrey, I also was sitting in a ward here in Las Vegas (there as a born-again Christian believer to engage in evangelism outreach when appropriate) when that announcement was read from the General Authorities stating that they didn’t have time to answer member’s questions and were basically “passing the buck” down to the pions below. I couldn’t help but to chuckle because I wasn’t too surprised to hear this and it goes back to the thread title of this blog. Once again, the LDS general authorities hide behind those that are under them and let them take the heat.

    I feel sorry for the LDS missionaries who mostly know nothing outside of the six lesson plans from “Preach My Gospel” who are faced with the daunting questions that are asked of them. I have been going to a different ward every weekend the last few weeks and doing the same thing and asking the same simple questions. Nobody has an answer to even the simplest of questions and the reply is standard, “Wow, those are great questions you asked and I have no idea. You have challenged me to look those things up and study them out and pray about them.”

    I had a high council member who couldn’t explain to me the similarity between John 4:24 & Alma 18:24-28 compared to D&C 130:22 and the King Follet Discourse. He just looked at the others who were sitting in on our conversation mystified and threw his hands up in the air in frustration. He offered to meet with me privately and answer all my questions since I told him the missionaries had cut me off and wouldn’t talk to me. I never heard from him.

    I guess all this has caused quite a stir here locally and I’ve been asked if I would be willing to meet with the Mormon “heavy hitters” on Monday for a three hour meeting. Of course, I excitedly agreed. We’ll see what happens. I’m looking forward to sharing the gospel.

    Ralph, where are the answers to those questions I asked especially no.3?

  37. falcon says:

    I am going to lift you up in prayer tonight. I am really impressed with your boldness in proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ in that environment. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you and that the Blood of Jesus will protect you. The theme of the Book of Ephesians is spiritual warfare. So as Paul says, put on the full armour of God and remember we don’t battle against flesh and blood. The battle is taking place in heavenly places right now. Interesting tid bit about this in the Book of Daniel when Michael is making his way to appear to Daniel.

  38. clarity67 says:


    Well, I am impressed that you have been brushing up on your D & C study in your last post. You make it sound as if we ought to all pick up our gauntlets and metaphorically throw them at each other. A few more verses for your consideration and in behalf of those you label “cowardly“:

    Matt 5:10
    Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

    12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

    D&C 41: 6

    For it is not meet that the things which belong to the children of the kingdom should be given to them that are not worthy, or to dogs, or the pearls to be cast before swine.

    3 Ne. 11: 29

    For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

    30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.

    If you truly wish to redress lost souls and claim them for Christ, the world is full of lost sinners. Leave on a mission (perhaps Africa) and we will wish you well, but , alas, you will not. And why not?? You would rather maintain that this blog is your mission and continue to focus your anger, jealousy, disdain, and general anxious unrest toward (the LDS) those you profess to love in a scathing manner which, ultimately, reveals your true motive. Carefully examine yourself and your efforts here for God will hold accountable those that fight against the Church of the Lamb.

  39. clarity67 says:


    At the risk of beating a dead horse, I will correct your erroneous view on your question #3.

    Your assumptions are backward and incontrovertibly reversed. You maintain that Christians are perfect. If that is true then you have no need for repentance. If that is true, then you are a liar and do not believe the scriptures (Rom 3:23). You still remain here on earth and are capable of sinning in the present. To conclude that you are perfect (already, even through Christ) is a lie. That perfection is jeopardized with every passing breath you take. To consider your perfection a foregone conclusion when an accounting of your stewardship has yet to take place is heresy and non-scriptural.

    You will say that the blood of Christ cleanses me from sin and by such ye are made perfect through the blood of the Lamb. True, but not yet. You do not walk in perfection YET. If you say you do, you are a liar. This is why nobody can keep the commandment in Matt 5:48 in this life, but that doesn’t mean we disregard it or give up. The same applies to the first and great commandment

    Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

    38 This is the first and great commandment.

    39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Now, I ask you, can ANYONE say they are living these commandments 100%. No! But does that mean we give up? No, we do our best and let Christ be our advocate with the Father and the gift of the atonement function in our behalf to account for what we can never do for ourselves.

  40. clarity67, if you were my neighbor I’d walk over in the morning and give you a copy of The Miracle of Forgiveness to cure you of Robinsonian ambiguity.

  41. Lautensack says:

    Just because someone is persecuted, or perceived as being persecuted, though I would not use those words in this case, does not mean that they are righteous. Many Iraqi’s and Iranian’s believe that the United States is persecuting Al-Qaeda, are they being persecuted for righteousness? Also what of the Pharisees of Matthew 23, did Christ persecute them for their righteousness or did He correct their errors, calling them to repentance? Christ and His apostles warned of false prophets and teachers would arise teaching doctrine contrary to scripture and by their “sweet words and blessings deceive the hearts of the naive.” Therefore we, as the servants of the LORD, are charged to teach and correct those in error that “God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.”
    Also you seem to think that Christians think we are already perfect, we do not. We are wicked sinners who wholly deserve God’s judgment, however we are declared legally righteous not by our works but by Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. Does this mean that we do not continue to grow in holiness? May it never be. “How can we who died to sin still live in it?” However “if we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” The evidence of true conversion, true rebirth is that you are continuing to grow in repentance. Unfortunately Joseph Smith taught that we should not grow in repentance but utterly abandon sin. (D&C 82:7)


  42. falcon says:

    I have to correct my Daniel reference regarding spiritual warfare. Got my angels mixed-up. In chapter 10 Gabriel appears to Daniel but he references Michael’s help in the spiritual battle.
    Another topic, through the blood of Christ we who believe and are trusting Him for our salvation are “declared” righteous. Abraham is said to have believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. That is the role of God’s grace. Salvation is offered to us, through faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross, as a free gift. We can’t add anything to what Jesus did for us on the cross. To think we can is pure folly. Mormons turn down this gift offered by God in the hope that they can purify themselves and in the process become gods. Pretty twisted I’d say. The whole notion of self purification in the pursuit of becoming a god is not supported by scripture. Just one more of Joseph Smith’s fantasies along with Masonic temple rituals and multiwifery. The latter “concept” also taking Mormons off to their own planetary system where they can rule with their goddess wives. We now know this option has been shut down as a possibility for the Utah LDS anyway but not for members of the FLDS.

  43. Berean says:

    Part 1


    Thanks for your post. I didn’t realize that the “dead horse” was “being beaten” because nobody had attempted to answer the question until you spoke up. I’m happy that you have “called me out” so I can finally share this with you and other Mormons that are struggling with Matthew 5:48. I know Mormons wrestle with this text and it creates an enormous amount of anxiety in their lives the same way it does when a Mormon wonders if they have been truly forgiven or not following the 5 steps of repentance as laid out in your doctrine.

    Christians take Matthew 5:48 seriously and literally. We believe that is Heavenly Father’s will for our lives. Don’t you? What does it say in Matthew 5:48: “Be ye perfect”. If your boss told you, “Okay, that’s it. From now on don’t come to work late – be on time.” Does that mean come to work when you want or be on time starting right now? If you told your kids, “Hey, quit acting up and be good!” Does that mean they should start acting good when they get around to it or when they want? No, it doesn’t. This is what Jesus is saying here. We are to be perfect – now. Heavenly Father demands perfection right now! Right this very minute. We aren’t told to “become perfect” which is the new slogan being inserted into LDS manuals.

    I think you, like all Mormons, think of perfection in terms of physical. Christians are thinking of spiritual perfection as we are seen by Heavenly Father when he sees us. Christians will continue to sin and will be in sin all the way up until we draw our last breath (1 John 1:8). Our physical perfection won’t be received until the resurrection.

    Mormons think perfection is a process. Matthew 5:48 doesn’t say it’s a process. What does 3 Nephi 12:48 and Matthew 5:50 (JST) say? Be ye perfect. It’s not a process. It’s a command for right now. Either we are or we are not. I bet you didn’t look up the verses in Hebrews so I will list them in part 2.

  44. Berean says:

    Part 2

    Hebrews 10:10: “We are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
    Hebrews 10:14: “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”
    Hebrews 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.”

    We (Christians) are the sanctified that he has perfected and that’s what makes it possible for us to be with Heavenly Father for all eternity. Eternity with Heavenly Father is a gift – not a reward. He has perfected us by his offering, not us perfecting ourselves by doing good works and going through religious rituals. Heavenly Father sent Jesus here not to show us how to be perfect, but to be perfect for us. That’s how Christians can say they are perfect. If you are trying to reach Heavenly Father any other way than accepting Jesus’ perfection for your own, then you will spend eternity in outer darkness.

    God in His infinite wisdom knew that we were born imperfect and that we would all sin. So being perfectly just and perfectly merciful, He made a way for us to be with Him for all eternity. Look at verse 17. Jesus’ death was the remission. There is no more offering for sin. No more needs to be done; no more can be done. We receive imputed perfection through Jesus. It is finished. Jesus bridged the gap between our imperfections and Heavenly Father’s demand for perfection. That is perfect justice wrapped in perfect mercy surrounded by perfect love. That is the miracle of forgiveness.

    Christians know that it is impossible to live the law of all the commandments. Regrettably, Mormons do not and Mormon doctrines don’t allow them to fudge on not living all of them. Only Christ lived the law perfectly. The law was only given to make us aware of our sin (Romans 3:20). Please read Romans 3:10,12,20,23&28; Romans 4:2-5; Isaiah 64:6.

    When Heavenly Father sees the Christian right now He sees His Son – not us because we are garbage apart from the Son (Isaiah 64:6). We are sinners. Part 3 next.

  45. Berean says:

    Part 3

    Regrettably, Mormon doctrine and the official words of the prophets don’t allow fellow Mormons to have the perfection that Jesus gives us alone and completely. It’s all about the Mormons part in helping Jesus out with their works and efforts. This is to dishonor God who already gave us all that we need to have spiritual perfection…Jesus.

    I’ve already pointed out a few Mormon scriptures, but here a few more that reiterate the point: Moroni 10:32; 2 Nephi 25:23; 1 Nephi 3:7; Alma 11:37; D&C 1:31-33; D&C 82:7; Alma 34:30-35; I also have 22 authoritative LDS quotes on this issue as well. Here are a few:

    “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of mem. This progress toward eternal life if a matter of achieving perfection. Living the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection.” (Spencer Kimball, “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 208)

    “Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children what was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievalbe goal.” (Spencer Kimball, “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 209)

    “Yes,” I said, “but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, “Be ye perfect, even as our Father which is in heaven is perfect. We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.” (Spencer Kimball, “The Miracle of Forgiveness”, page 286)

    “…but as members of the Church it is our duty to prepare ourselves for eternity. The more nearly perfect our lives are here, the more perfect they will be there.” (Joseph F. Smith, “The Way to Perfection”, page 4)

    “Salvation does not come all at once; we are commanded to be perfect even as our Father in heaven in perfect. I believe the Lord meant just what he said” (Joseph F. Smith, “Doctrines of Salvation” 2:18-19)

    I’m tapped out on my daily limit. Thanks for reading!

  46. Jeffrey says:

    Cant type much because I’m at work. But, Berean!
    I live in Boulder City! that little town on the way to hoover dam, about 20 miles from Las Vegas. We should hang/go to lunch sometime!

    I’ve always wanted to discuss LDS topics with a fellow evangelical Christian. It’s hard to discuss them with my wife because she gets flustered that she doesn’t have any answers for me. I really try to come across in a loving manner, but its hard for her when I’m not agreeing with her beliefs.

    Anyways, how old are you? Married? Kids?

    Oh, and you should come to the Ward I go to in Boulder City and ask some of those questions in the Gospel Doctrine class. There has been moments where I had a very pushing urge to pipe up and say something when they talk about certain topics.. I would have if I were more well versed in scripture to support it. It’s more like I know that the Bible says it, but I don’t know the exact scripture, so for all they know I could be talking out of my rear.

    Anyways, let me know! I work in Las Vegas actually at 95 and Rainbow.. (40 minute commute daily, yuck). What do you do for a living? I work at a law firm as a marketing coordinator. Actually.. the law firm I work for is LDS.

  47. Jeffrey says:

    Berean, I think you’re at your limit for today, so I will give you my email address. Probably better to do that than litter the blog with personal conversation anyway 🙂 Sorry Aaron!

    my email is [email protected]

  48. Ralph says:

    First and foremost, all of the prophets of the LDS church teach that the church and prophets are only given the revelations necessary for the salvation of the people on this earth. Outside of that, some people who are worthy/more spiritual can receive further revelation for their own edification, not to share with others or only with a few close associates. (I believe (ie my opinion) that is what has happened with some of the past prophets and some misunderstandings given to their words – they understood a higher principle and did not explain it properly for others to understand.) In saying this, it means that the LDS church does not have all of the answers to questions – but it does have all of the answers pertinent to our salvation and that should be suffice for all. So in answer to your first 2 questions – there is no answer available because it is not pertinent to our salvation. So you will most likely fond nobody who can answer it, but some might try and give their own opinion.

    But Q1 is really a moot question because a similar thing can be asked about the God you believe in – where did He come from? What does it mean in your philosophy that He was uncreated? Did He just appear from no where? Has He always been there, if so how? But since we cannot understand infinite time, we cannot understand fully the concept of a being that was always there, nor can we understand a process that is ad infinitum which the LDS church believe in about God.

    Q2 We do not know and probably never will until we reach the Celestial Kingdom. Although I have heard some very interesting ideas.

    Q3 A Christian websites (http://scripturetext.com/matthew/5-48.htm) show that this can be translated (gives the Greek text) as we are commanded to become perfect, so it IS an ongoing process not a right here and now. Another (http://bible.cc/matthew/5-48.htm) gives differing meanings as to what it entails (ie physical works/spiritual attititude, etc).

  49. Ed says:

    Berean –

    Excellent exposition on the nature of man and atonement of Christ! This is such a fundamental doctrine of the Bible, and yet the Christian and LDS views of this principle are so fundamentally different. I think this is one of the reasons that dialog between Christians and Mormons is often so strained.

  50. clarity67 says:


    Thankful for your post and actually look forward to your response with the following dissection of your last comments. This may need to be contd in several posts.

    God in His infinite wisdom knew that we were born imperfect and that we would all sin. So being perfectly just and perfectly merciful, He made a way for us to be with Him for all eternity. AGREED. Look at verse 17. Jesus’ death was the remission. There is no more offering for sin. Correct, Jesus has offered the great and final sacrifice for sin.

    No more needs to be done; no more can be done. Correct, the atonement is absolutely complete and Jesus need do nothing more, and obviously, nothing we can do will add to HIS work or sacrifice- it is perfect.

    Your assumption is incorrect here where it applies to OUR obedience. You incorrectly conclude that because Jesus has done His part (which only He could do) we are relinquished from doing OUR part which is stated throughout the scriptures, but encapsulated in Moroni 10:32.

    32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

    This, after we (1) come to Him, (2) deny ourselves of all ungodliness, (3) and love Him……THEN (the operative word here,…..THEN) is His grace sufficient for you that by His grace ye may be perfect in Christ.

    We receive imputed perfection through Jesus. It is finished. Yes, His part is finished, however, ours is not. We do receive imputed perfection from Jesus, but only after we have been obedient.


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