God is Not Honored by Blind Faith

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Bryan Hurlbutt’s entire talk, “Discerning the Wind: Responding to the ‘Trump Card’ of Mormon Personal Religious Experience”, is now available for $2.99 on MP3 audio and $3.99 on MP4 video. I love his description of true Christianity as a “dance” between objectivity and subjectivity.

“In an LDS culture personal experience is cherished as the authoritative means of obtaining spiritual truth. How do we deal with this very personal and precious issue with our Mormon neighbors without disavowing the reality of genuine Christian, personal, spiritual experience? In this presentation Bryan assesses the nature of Mormon ‘testimony’, discusses a criteria for evaluating religious experience and proposes a means of engaging this foundation of individual Mormon conviction.”

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60 Responses to God is Not Honored by Blind Faith

  1. Megan says:

    I think basing one’s relationship with God on personal experience and feelings is something that many Christians are guilty of as well. Of course there is an element of faith that goes along with embracing Christianity, as there should be. But God gave us minds to seek Him; He doesn’t want us to check our minds at the door.

  2. falcon says:

    At some point, we all step across a threshold called faith. It’s the process of coming to this faith that’s the question. When I got saved, at that moment, I didn’t feel anything, really. But I thought God spoke to me, through someone else. I had a sense of it. I can’t explain it. But I knew Jesus was the Christ and through Him, I would receive eternal life.

    After, Jesus’ resurection he was walking along the road with two of the disciples. They didn’t know it was Him. The disciples had been discussing the events of the previous few days….when Jesus joined them He pointed out, from the scriptures the necessity of the death of the Messiah. From the scriptures. In fact, later, when they recognized Jesus and He vanished they asked each other why their hearts hadn’t been burning within them as He talked…i.e. how stupid of us. Jesus wasn’t looking for people to believe based on a burning in the bossom experience. He was looking for people to believe in Him because of the evidence He showed them from the scriptures.

  3. Ralph says:


    Your statement “In fact, later, when they recognized Jesus and He vanished they asked each other why their hearts hadn’t been burning within them…” is incorrect. I have listed the actual phrasing from the Bible from 5 different versions (off Biblegateway) to show you what is actually meant.

    NIV – They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

    NASB – They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

    NLT – They said to each other, “Didn’t our hearts burn within us as he talked with us on the road and explained the Scriptures to us?”

    ESV – They said to each other, “Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?”

    KJV – And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

    As you can see, the disciples mean that their hearts were burning within them but they did not recognise it at the time. In fact when read in context with the other verses, it seems like they were kicking themselves for not having recognised this feeling and what it meant as they were too absorbed in their problems. This then validates the LDS perspective.

    As to using the negative in a question, it’s an old English thing. Don’t understand it myself but it’s frequently used. For example “ISN’T it a nice day?” With this question one is not asking about it being a terrible day but commenting on how nice a day it is. “DON’T the flowers look lovely?” “She’s pretty, ISN’T she?” I could go on like this all day, COULDN’T I? So as you can see, it’s really ingrained in English, ISN’T it?

    And this also answers the so-called problem with the negative being used in Moroni 10:4. It’s just an English language trait.

  4. GRCluff says:

    Why did Christ teach us to “Seek and ye shall find” if we can never expect answers to come in any personal way?

    Why didn’t he say “Seek and then go find all the answers for yourself using only the Bible”. That is the message being delivered here.

    Is it not possible that Mormons (myself included) are having genuine Christian, personal, and spiritual experiences? If so, why do those experiences fail as evidence to build conviction and testimony?

  5. germit says:

    RALPH: Good work with the language stuff posted above. Yours is a keen eye: the disciples WERE kicking themselves because they should have “got it”. You do miss, or underemphasize a key point: they should have ‘got it’ because that burning was CAREFULLY VALIDATED BY AN EXPLANATION FROM SCRIPTURE. Again, I get tired of saying it, but ev christians are NOT against subjective experiences brought on by the Holy Spirit, but notice the pattern that Jesus gives us: yes the disciples have a wondrous feeling, but it is grounded in what God has revealed to one and all through the written word. It isn’t one or the other, it’s both, but the Word interprets our experience, not the other way around.

  6. Jeffrey says:

    To me, that verse can go either way so I have yet to choose either side on it.

    However, the real issue lies within ones “spiritual experience”. Do the LDS really believe that they can completely validate truth through that experience? Not one Mormon I have posed the question of “Do you not believe the Muslims have that spiritual experience confirming their faith when they pray?” – They can’t offer any valid explanation of that, instead they must claim a self righteousness and say “It’s God who is truly speaking to me, not the muslims, they must be hearing things.”

    Do I have to quote scripture on the deceitfulness of ones heart? To me, it is childish to rely completely upon what one perceives to be a true spiritual experience. Especially in our sinful nature, we are more drawn to listening to the Father of Lies than we are to God. Just read Romans and you get an idea of exactly how much men have turned away from God.

    This is exactly why God gives us brains, reasoning, logic, and has us use them to study and ponder the many ways in which he has shown himself to us.

    Do you really think a Mormon who stands at the pulpit for 30 years, baring his testimony and saying “I KNOW the church is true” would end up leaving it?

    Think about it. I myself KNOW that 1 1 = 2. It has been proven mathematically for many many years. Do you think that one day I would just up and say that 1 1 = 4?

    If you truly know, especially about something that is for your eternal salvation, would you leave it? I would be shocked to find someone who does.

  7. jackg says:


    You make a great point. I would merely comment that this was their experience, but it’s a big jump to state that this is the way God always works and then to create an entire doctrine on this example. When we look at Matthew 16, Peter, in response to Jesus’ question as to whom do the disciples say that He is, confesses “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” There is no mention of a burning in the heart in this instance. You see, the common denominator is not this feeling of emotion that we describe in human terms as a burning in the heart; rather, it is the fact that the truth and presence of the Messiah has been revealed, and it is the Holy Spirit who reveals this. The Moroni passage is asking the reader to seek revelation whether or not a writing is true. This passage cannot be compared to the biblical passages described because the revelation of Jesus Christ is not its focus. I don’t know of anywhere in the biblical text where the reader is asked to pray whether or not its true.


    You ask an honest question. The only thing I want to point out is that we need to test answers against the Bible to discern whether or not we are actually hearing from God or from a false spirit. There are scores of people who claim God told them to do something that clearly goes against the Bible, like killing doctors at abortion clinics, etc.

    As for your LDS testimony, you’re claiming spiritual experiences that solidify a testimony about a god that is different from the God revealed to us in the Bible. LDS god was once a man and became god; the biblical God has always been God. This is just one example, but it’s the biggest difference as far as I can tell. Anyway, hope this response helps some.

  8. falcon says:

    “Were not our hearts burning within us….” Why not “No, stupid us!” as an interpretation. Even if it’s “Yes” what does that mean? Besides, the burning would have been an excitment regarding what Jesus was telling them. To say, that the Holy Spirit was sendiing the reaction, the burning, to confirm what Jesus was saying is a stretch. I wish it were that easy. I’ve been around enough people who get all kinds of “burnings” and frankly, they don’t know what they’re talking about. I get fired up about all kinds of things too. It’s an emotional reaction. Some people can’t be moved with a case of dynamite.

    I’ve pretty much cautioned myself to exercise God’s gift of discernment in regards to my excitment/burnings in spiritual matters. I’ve taken a pentecostal road in my Christian experience and that genre of the faith is oriented heavily towards personal revelation via the gift of prophesy, interpretation of tongues and a word of knowledge. It can be a real playground for loose cannons and flakey people. People getting a “burning in their bosom” needs to be carefully analyzed. We don’t make doctrine in that way, but trust that God’s Holy Spirit is leading us as we fast, pray and carefully search the scriptures for answers.

  9. Arthur Sido says:


    “Is it not possible that Mormons (myself included) are having genuine Christian, personal, and spiritual experiences? If so, why do those experiences fail as evidence to build conviction and testimony?”

    In a word: No. Because what these “experiences” are telling you runs contrary to the Bible. Either you trust your experience or trust the Word, but if they are mutually exclusive you can’t have it both ways.

  10. falcon says:

    The feeling, the excitment of thinking that God is speaking directly to me can be emotionally intoxicating and provides me with a sense that I am connected with God in a special way. I am receiving direct revelation from God and it’s confirmed by the burning bosom or tingling sensation in my body. Right?

    This comes right out of the early 19th century camp meeting phenomonon of which Joseph Smith was very familiar. Emotional ecstasy with physical manifestations were all a part of the camp meeting experience. Joseph Smith’s work was a combination of the 19th century protestantism, the Bible, folk magic, American antiquity and his own considerable imagination and dynamic personality.

    God has provided us with His Word, His spiritual gifts including prophesy and His five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit. When properly applied we have a fully functioning Church responding to God’s guidance. Jesus warned about false prophets as did the apostle Paul. Leading people to believe they can “feel” their way into communication with God, results in manipulation and false doctrine and erroneous practices.

  11. jackg says:


    Great post. I’d like to add that the danger of running on one’s feelings tends to make one feel as if they’re disconnected from God because those feelings aren’t there for whatever reason. We have spiritual highs and lows, and God is present even when we don’t “feel” His presence.

  12. GRCluff says:


    I have studied the Bible enough to know that a number of Bible verses can be interpreted to support my belief on the nature of God, including the concept of eternal progression. It seems quite natural to me.

    How long can you sit on a cloud and play harp music? What if God actually asks you to do something in heaven? You may have to say yes, then you will be accepting the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression with a smile! The more you do what God asks, the more like him you will become.

    If this turns into a Bible bash, on the nature of God we will end up choosing different verses to support our position, leaving only the more direct method of finding truth. That is the genuine Christian, personal and spritual experiences.

    Christ himself taught “Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it will be opened unto you.” I really don’t think he expects us to knock on the cover of the Bible before we open it to do our seeking. He probably meant something a bit more meaningful. 🙂

  13. jackg says:


    Is there a time when the progression stops, or is God still progressing? I’m curious as to what verses you would use to support the idea of eternal progression that leads to godhood. I know of verses that teach sanctification that leads us back to the imago dei, which is God’s character, which is perfect love. For the record, Christians have nothing against the idea of becoming God-like or Christ-like, that’s what the imago dei is all about; it’s the pagan notion of becoming gods ourselves.

    I can’t figure out what you’re getting at with your “knock on the cover of the Bible…” comment. Perhaps, I just don’t get your humor.

    Once again, spiritual experiences need to be measured against the Bible, not the other way around. The more I discuss any topic with LDS, it seems that this phrase is relevant in every situation where there is a difference of beliefs. JS introduced a backward theology.

    Wow, playing harp music on a cloud. It seems that you have no concept or clue of what it means to be in a relationship with an awesome God Who could obliterate us if He chooses because of our filthiness, but instead has chosen to redeem us because of His grace and desire for relationship with us. It all starts in the Garden and why God created humans in the first place–not to become gods, but for relationship.

    Here’s a thought: it would seem to me that a doctrine of becoming gods and having eternal sex would be so desirable that great care would have been taken to make sure this doctrine did not get left out of the Bible. Don’t you think that evil men, which the LDS Church claims took control of the Bible, would have at least kept that enticing doctrine in? Maybe they weren’t so evil. Maybe there never was such a doctrine that somehow got lost. I see red flags…

  14. GRCluff says:

    The concept of eternal progression can be supported by:

    Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    1 Samuel 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and he hath set the world upon them.

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    1 Cor 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
    6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    My humor was a bit dry, maybe I can dampen it some. To me “Knock and it will be opened unto you” is an invitation to pray for inspiration together with a promise that inspiration will come. The “blind faith” theme of this blog denies a beautiful promise by forcing it into the “straight jacket” of the Bible.

    To me the Bible is an arbitrary collection of 2nd and 3rd century manuscripts gathered by a group who had already rejected that same type of inspiration. They rejected inspiration when they killed the last remaining prophets.

    If you reject the concept of personal revelation to always defer to the Bible, then what does “knock” mean? It must mean that you should knock on the cover before you read.

    I am illustrating the ridiculous by being ridiculous myself… can you get it now?

    Let me try another one…

    Luke 3:2 — Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

    Does that mean the Bible grew wings and flew to where John was in the wilderness?

  15. falcon says:

    People of all religious stripes will often times say something like “I could really feel the Spirit in there.” Really? Was the music sentimental and uplifting, did the preacher present with great authority making salient and inspirational points, were the prayers “deep” and insightful, were the spiritual feelings a result of these things or did God cause the feelings/manifestations?

    Every night for the past month or so, I’ve been tuning into the God channel (365 DirectTV) to watch the Todd Bentley Florida Healing Outpouring and other prophetic conferences televised there. I watch to sharpen my skills of discernment. There’s a few questions I run through the truth grid when I watch. I know a little bit about audience psychology and have studied the Bible regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit and also the history of enlightenments; manifestations etc.

    Are the words of knowledge, the prophetic utterances, the falling over (slain in the spirit), the moaning and crying; are they from God? Tune in and decide and then evaluate your own “spiritual” experiences and revelations. Be brave enough to consider that maybe, just maybe, what you’re experiencing isn’t from God but may be emanating from your own physical or emotional desires. If somebody yells “Fire, Fire, Fire, More, More, More, Double Portion, Double Portion”, does that cause God to increase the outpouring of His Spirit? The people attending the meetings are feeling something and many come forward to report healings.

    Chris Matthews the moderator of an MSNBC political program said that he felt a tingling up his leg when Barack Obama spoke. So that confirms what? That BO is the real deal? He’s true? He should be president? No, No, No these are different feelings, right? There not the same as my super duper special religious, spiritual feelings that I know come right from God. Sure recipe for disaster and a major set-up to be taken down any road any leader in any walk of life would like to take you.

  16. falcon says:

    I’m glad to see that you said “To me….” when you gave your opinion of the inspiration of the Bible and knowledge of Church history. I’m not going to give you a mini lecture here because I really tire of the low level of scholarship and apologetics coming from the Mormon camp. Christians rejected the prophets? Please. Talk about self-serving drivel. “See, See, See saints, that’s why the prophet Joseph had to restore the true gospel because the early Christians rejected the prophets and manipulated the Bible text and left out temples, and sacred underware, and costumes, and secret handshakes, and passwords, and plural marrage and all these plain and precious truths that we, the true church, have restored.” It’s beyond laughable.

  17. Berean says:


    Your lack of respect and total disregard of the Bible is glaring and self evident as you unwisely state verses to support the Mormon view of godhood in the Bible. Quite frankly, it’s laughable and ignorant and since you have such little confidence in it and give the Bible “lip service”, why quote from it? You’re in violation of Article #8: you aren’t translating the Bible correctly. Also, I reject your interpretation because it’s only your opinion and not authoritative. Sound like a Mormon, don’t I?

    Just to refresh your memory from the other thread since you have apparently forgotten, Christianity has 50 manuscripts from the 1st century of every book in the Bible in their original language. Remember the Dead Sea Scrolls as well? What do the Mormons have? Nothing. No golden plates. No orginals of anything except for the papyri of the Book of Abraham which has already been shown to be a fraud and nothing but a common Egyptian funeral text by Egyptologists that can read those parchments unlike Joseph Smith. I ask you again, when is the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve going to fly to Jerusalem, Trinity College and Cambridge and look at these 1st century manuscripts and translate them correctly? When is Thomas Monson (seer, translator and revelator) going to give us the “correct” and complete version of the Bible. If we don’t have manuscripts I’m sure Thomas Monson could look into a seer stone in a hat and have the Mormon god talk to him in that way and get direct revelation, right? The Mormon god wouldn’t want his children to not have his complete and corrected word, correct?

    If the Bible is what you and other Mormons say it is, then why does the LDS Church give this Bible away on its website with the Church stamp on the binder? Why does the Church give the Bible for free on TV ads? Why would they want to be associated with such a loose, flipid, “arbitrary collection of 2nd and 3rd century manuscripts”?

  18. Berean says:

    “They rejected inspiration when they killed the last remaining prophets”.

    Is that right? Are they all dead? Surely you know from Mormon scripture that this isn’t true. 3 Nephi 28 states that there are three Nephite prophets still alive today. D&C 7 states that the Apostle John is still alive (which is not true). That leaves us with 4 prophets still alive today. Uh oh, that means that the Great Apostasy isn’t true for many reasons (maybe on another thread as to not upset the moderators).

    Matthew 5:48 supports eternal progression? Let’s get serious. The command is “Be ye therefore perfect”. That is present tense. It doesn’t say “become perfect” like Mormons state it. 3 Nephi 12:48 and and JST Matt 5:50 says the same thing: “Be ye perfect”. Heavenly Father demands perfection NOW – right this minute. The big question for Mormons is: Are you perfect or are you still doing “after all we can do”? Are Mormons obeying this command? If not, they are in violation of 1 Nephi 3:7 and D&C 25:15 just to name a few. Mormon prophets, such as Spencer Kimball, have stated that perfection is attainable NOW and that the Lord demands it. Christians are perfect right now and fulfill Matthew 5:48 completely through Christ. Mormons are still working at it on their own with “after all we can do”. It’s all or nothing. Either Christ did it all or he did none of it. He isn’t a part-time/half-pint Savior.

    1 Samuel 2:8 – This is a very weak text to support this Mormon belief. Come up with something better like John 10:34/PSA 82:6.

    Romans 8:16 – Yep, those that receive the Lord Jesus are His children (John 1:12). We are joint-heirs because we are ADOPTED (verse 15) into the family. Being a “fellow-heir” with Christ involves, not an exaltation as a god, but an inheritance of all spiritual blessings in this life (Eph 1:3), and all the riches of God’s glorious kingdom in the next life (1 Cor 3:21-23). Isaiah 43:10-12 forever nullifies any Mormon’s hope in becoming a god.

  19. Berean says:


    One of the problems that our LDS friends have is that they do very poor biblical study. What does that mean? They don’t look at the full context of the passage which means the verses before and after the quoted text. It also means they don’t look at the historical background. They also don’t look at corresponding scriptures that are more clear to help understand THE SAME teaching.

    1 Cor 8:5-6. This doesn’t support eternal progression. Why? Look at the context. Start with verse 4. Paul is talking about IDOLS. There are many idols and false gods named throughout the Bible. We have them today. Mankind can make an idol out of anything: an antique car, a hobby, sports, money, sex, power, another person, etc. Whatever one puts before Christ is a an idol/god. There are many of these and Paul states so in verse 5 (notice the small “g” for gods). In verse 6 we have the big “G” for “to us there is but one God”. What do we cross reference this with to see if we are correct in our view? Look at Gal 4:8. There is only one God BY NATURE. There are many gods, but they aren’t gods by nature…big difference.

    Spiritual experiences from God? Consider this article from Yvonne Fulbright from the Fox News Channel regarding transcendent sex. She states that “lovemaking is a divine force…divine experience…a path to a higher consciousness.” She “was transported to another realm” and was “lost in a purplish-turned-white light that went beyond my body”. What else took place: “seeing visions, seeing the face of God, paranormal powers, being visited by gods, feeling possessed by spirits, working with natural forces”.

    Is this from God? She had a spiritual/sexual experience. The feelings were all there. She has a testimony. I haven’t experienced it, but shouldn’t this be tested by scripture. Yes! It must! 1 Thes 5:21; 1 John 4:1. Satan can mimic any feeling to deceive. Devout people in other religions have powerful feelings (Al Qaeda), doesn’t mean it’s from God.

  20. falcon says:

    In the late 1970s there was a “church” in our area that got into something called “spiritual connecting”. Now my recollection is that this church was started in Seatle by a former engineer at Boeing. Well as the people began to grow spiritually the pastor assigned a member of the opposite sex to be the spiritual connection of another member. These might be single people or those married to others. Well eventually the spiritual couples were directed to dance together during the church service. And of course eventually they began to spiritually connect outside of church. This didn’t happen all at once of course. It takes time to break-down people’s inhibitions. Well, anyway this was a great “spiritual” experience. All kinds of spiritual feelings happening I’m sure.

    Joseph Smith had an innate, intuitive sense of the psychology of people and knew how to manipulate people to have visions and revelations and spiritual experiences. He was a master at using “spiritual truth” to seduce women. After all, hadn’t an angel with a sword appeared to him and threatened him with death if he didn’t get his groove on with the sisters?

    His technique of degrading the Bible and historical Christianity gave him the premise for developing a religion to satisfy his ego needs. People who had/have no strong anchor in the Bible and a poor understanding of Church history, jump(ed) on the bandwagon. You know why? Because it makes them “feel” good, so it has to be true.

  21. gpark says:

    I come from a Pentecostal background but am very careful not to allow my Christian walk to be ruled by feelings.

    See the pattern of Paul’s preaching in Acts 17:1-12. Especially look at verses 1 – 3: 1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” Though some Jews were persuaded and “a greet multitude of the devout Greeks,” some of those preached to stirred up a mob against Paul and Silas such that Paul and Silas were sent to Berea.

    Notice the difference in the behaviour of the Bereans in Acts 17:10-12: 10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

    Searching the Scriptures daily should be the goal and desire of all Christians. See 2 Timothy 2:15-16: 14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.

    There have been many times in my life when harsh realities could have led me to go seeking the purveyor of some special feeling, but God has given me real treasure from His Word to take me through those times.

  22. falcon says:

    way to go GPARK. I tuned in last night to the GOD channel #365 on DirectTV and found that the revival has now been extended for a month or so. I think this can be picked-up at something like http://www.freshfire.com on the net, it’s Todd Bentley as the main evangelist.

    Last night the tent was jam packed and I think the group must have praised and worshiped for like an hour and ahalf to two hours. Not to anyway be disrepectful, but I just mute it and watch with one eye while I practice my guitar…which by the way I am showing some improvement after a year and a half. So I wait for Todd to come on and it’s getting rare when a message from the Bible is actually preached. Alot of hand gestures towards the crowd with shouts of “Bam, Bam….Receive….Receive. Then typically there are words of knowledge about people being healed at that moment and reports of other miracles that have taken place.

    Now this group of people REALLY feels good. Hay I’m all for feeling good and for miracles and such but my personal goal while watching is to figure out if God is in this deal. It’s a nightly exercise for me. I’d feel a little bit better if there were more Biblical preaching and exhortation. “Fire, Fire, Bam, Bam” is all well and good but after awhile I’d like to hear an inspirational message or solid teaching.

    The people do go for it and as I have mentioned previously, they are being moved and the ambiance in the room could be said to be the Spirit. But I’m a little cautious about these things and tend to examine, analyze and try to discern what’s going on. But it has to be true because of the confirming feelings being generated. Has to be from God!

  23. GRCluff says:


    I said:
    To me the Bible is an arbitrary collection of 2nd and 3rd century manuscripts gathered by a group who had already rejected that same type of inspiration. They rejected inspiration when they killed the last remaining prophets.

    I wasn’t referencing Christians alone, that’s why I said “a group” rather than “the early Christians”. I don’t believe that “real” Christianity made it into the 4th century. God was not responsible for the cruelty of the Crusades, or the French Inquisitions, or for prosecuting Galileo for his heretical theory that the world was round.

    The “they” I was trying to discuss was much larger group, which should include the leaders of the Holy Roman Empire, for example, such as the Emperor Constantine. If my scholarship serves, he coordinated and enforced the effort of various bishops and clergy who were selected to help quell the religious chaos of the 3rd century. It was after all, the power of the Roman Empire that succeeded to kill the last surviving apostles and prophets. Or does my low level of scholarship fail me again?

    You may need to forgive us lay Mormons for failing to study Bible history as much as the rest of the world. We have to worry about Book of Mormon history and 18th century American history as well. We don’t use the Bible as the foundation for all our beliefs anyway. It pales in comparison to the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit or a good prophet. It is a much different perspective.

    Lets see if I can match your condescending tone to make my point:
    I really tire of the low level of spirituality of these so called “Christians”. If you read this blog, it seems they don’t even believe that God answers prayers. They are spiritual infants; God has been answering mine for years.

    How well does that fit?

  24. falcon says:

    I see you have conveniently ignored all of the information BEREAN presented which pretty much refutes your point of view. You want to reject the Bible and deal with revelation knowledge I see. By rejecting the Bible you have nothing to hold up as a standard to determine if your revelations are from the Holy Spirit. It’s just a free flow of consciousness interpreted as spiritual data. That’s why Mormons have been so easily seduced by Joseph Smith. The Bible speaks of this when it talks about false teachers and prophets. Mormons have to down grade the Bible and Biblical authority in order to make the whole deal work. Mormonism does not exist within the Biblical tradition. I can see why you reject Biblical authority.

    Continuing with my condescending attitude, you do have a very poor understanding of Christian history. You take a few facts and interpret them to mean that essential Christianity did not survive persecution. God’s Holy Spirit would not have allowed that. God’s Church, the Body of Christ, did survive very nicely, however there are always heretics on the scene. I can’t understand how little faith you have in God’s ability to build and maintain His Christian Church over the centuries.

    Here are some reference works regarding these topics. I’m not going to do your work for you. “Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church” (Eerdmans, 1992); Early Christian Doctrines (Harper San Francisco, 1978); “The Pattern of Christian Truth: A Study in the Relations between Orthodoxy and Heresy in the Early Church” (Mowbray, 1954).

    I would also suggest “An Insiders’s View of Mormon Origins” written by Mormon scholar Grant Palmer, Signature Books, Salt Lake City.

    Grant Palmer has an excellent chapter called “Witnesses to the Golden Plates”. It talks about the magical world view and practices of Joseph Smith and his close homies. They had some very interesting ways of obtaining the type of revelation that you favor.

  25. GRCluff says:


    The Bible is valuable to Mormons for a couple of good reasons.

    1) The church endorses it because it contains valuable truth. We are not naïve enough, however, to claim that it contains all doctrinal truth, or that the pure truths that were there originally have survived the many translations. We do offer a bit more than lip service.

    2) We can teach many doctrines that are uniquely LDS from the Bible, and you accept the Bible as the only source of truth. That is a valuable combination to us. The doctrine of pre-existence, for example can be taught from the Bible better than any other source.

    When I was younger I used to wonder why God failed to leave the golden plates as evidence that Joseph’s translation was correct. That was before I began to learn about faith.

    One purpose for our life here is to learn to walk by faith. If we begin to rely on evidence and proof we are rejecting the concept of faith. God wants us to pray and receive answers to prayer.

    The Bible teaches the concept like this::

    1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

    The Bible also teaches about your failure to grasp the concept of faith:

    2 Tim 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

    It is faith that is missing, not Bible scholarship–the kind of faith that gets answer to prayer.

  26. matt miller says:

    Lets take a look at where the scriptures: whether it be the bible, or book of mormon originally came from. It was written by prophets of god or in other words men who spoke with god. So then I ask the question, can man receive spiritual knowledge and it not come by means of revelation? No. In fact one can not even gain a witness or true testimony of christ without receiving at lest a portion of the spirit of prophecy or revelation. Keep in mind the book of Revelation refers to this testimony as the spirit of prophecy for Jesus was, is ,and most certainly is to come.

    So then if all scripture and any knowledge pertaining to god must be reveiled by gods power how do we obtain such a gift? Jesus said, “How knoweth a man a master whome he has not served.” This means if we are to know him or even gain any knowledge about him we must serve him.

    Now this is true faith! A man acting out of a desire to know god: for this is life eternal as our master said: to begin reading the scriptures seeking to know if they are true, kneeling at his bed side and asking god in prayer if they are true. This is not blind faith for he would not have even thought to ask if god had not revealed the words of life to a prophet years before. Adam him self did not know to believe in christ until he was told to by an angel.

    Now I will share a secret with you folks. If the burning of the Holy Ghost is not enough for you and you seek open visions to commune with the most high for your selves which should be our goal in order to know him as best we can before this life is over. Remember this that the lords work is first spiritual then temporal, then again temporal then spiritual.

    We are living on earth in a temporal state. If the lords goal is to raise us from this temporal existence to a higher one: a spiritual one: we must first prove our selves faithful in our temporal labors which he requires of us. Only then can the veil be removed that we can take upon us a greator spiritual work.

  27. gpark says:

    GRCluff said:

    It is faith that is missing, not Bible scholarship–the kind of faith that gets answer to prayer.

    Romans 10:17 says, “…faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.”

    Furthermore, in the context of Romans 10, what was the word being preached to awaken faith within the hearer? See Romans 10:5-13.

    5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

    Finally, what was holding the hearers back from receiving this word spoken about in the verses above? See Romans 10: 1-4
    1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    People refuse to accept the finished work of Jesus. See also 2 Corinthians 5:21 and 1 Cor.1:30-31.

  28. falcon says:


  29. falcon says:

    Aberrant religious groups and cults consistently attack Biblical Christianity on the following doctrine:

    1. The inerrancy and inspiration of the Bible.
    2. The nature of God; the doctirne of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
    3. The finished (redemptive) work of Jesus on the Cross.
    4. Salvation by grace alone a part from works.

    It’s as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning. The Bible must be attacked because the Bible is the authoratative Word of God. It stands as a light shinning against heresy and false prophets. Satan would like nothing more than to change, in people’s minds, who God is. Degrade God. Bring God down and insult Him. Make God out to be nothing more than an exhalted man and tell people that they can also be gods. Make the Holy Spirit out to be a “force” rather than a person. But in all, bring God down. It’s OK to proclaim reference as long as it’s an idol and not the real living God. The redemptive work of Jesus on the Cross is not seen as complete but merely the part of a long process of personally deification. Cults superseed the extension of God’s grace in salvation by convincing men that it’s their own work that completes the redemptive process. The followers of this line become, in essence, co-redemptors with Christ.

    Finally wrap this all up in a pretty ribbon with a bow called personal revelation. Make it all “feel” good and “spiritual”. Once people are seduced into thinking that they can become gods, the good feelings just keep flowing.

  30. matt miller says:

    Man is the offspring of God. As a member of the LDS church I believe that I can do as Christ has promised: that is I can live faithfully and inherit all that the father hath as a co-heir with Jesus Christ. Jesus him self said referencing Psalms 82:1-8, “Ye are Gods, and all of you are Children of the most high.” In this context Jesus was being attacked for blasphemy: trying to make himself out to be more than a man, IE a God. The reference is John 10:34

    Further more John the revelator said these words,”And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from out sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto GOD AND HIS FATHER.”
    The Subject of the sentence was Jesus christ so the reference to God was reference made to God the Father of Jesus and His father is reference that even God the father has a father.

    Here are some more references to the humble seeker of truth, Acts 17:29 Rom 8:17 2 Cor 3:18 Gal 4:7 Rev 3:21 3 Nephi 9:17,27:27

    The Jews found it exceedingly difficult to accept the truth when Jesus was living among them, how much harder is it then to accept it if the words of the bible is the only thing you consider, as the jews judged Christ for face value and denied his power saying it was of satan. He that lacketh wisdom let him ask of god that giveth to all men liberaly James 1:5

    Satan Cannot reproduce true revelation. He can imitate it only as he is not perfect, remember 666 is almost a 7 but only almost.

    I know that Joseph smith was a true prophet of God as president Monson is today and no one can take that from me.

    If you Truly believe all the bible you know that Gods work is not done among men. Amos 3:7-8 “Surly the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” I believe in God and His continuing power to speak to his children at will. I have faith and knowledge of this.

  31. GRCluff says:


    The proper focus for faith is not “the wisdom of men” but the “power of God” just like the Bible verse I quoted (1 Cor 2:5) indicates. Often Bible scholarship and knowledge of Biblical history takes the first path rather than the second.

    I am glad to see that other groups acknowlede and accept the evidence that the power of God offers. I would say it moves progressively through 4 phases, and the power of God is more clearly evident in each phase.

    1. There is a God in heaven who answers prayers.
    2. Jesus is the Christ who paid the price for our sins.
    3. Joseph Smith was the prophet of the restoration in our dispensation.
    4. The kingdom of God is found on the earth today in the form of the LDS church.

    The power of God is evident to all who exercise sufficient faith. Your audio comment shows evidence of that power at phase 1 and 2. That power will disappear when you fail to follow it forward to 3 and 4. That is why this blog trys to say it is not “proper evidence” at all.

    In my experience, the same exact spirit and power that says Jesus it the Christ also says that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the kingdom of God on the earth today IS the LDS church. Until you remove the barrier that this blog presents, then the power of God will remain idle, blocked – damned if you will due the the “wisdom of men”.

    It has nothing to do with becoming a god or embracing polgamy or any other red herring argument you need to pull in to justify your position. Face it man, God answers prayers using the the clear evidence of the Holy Spirit and you are BLOCKED at phase 3.

  32. gpark says:

    I wanted to complete my answer to GR Cluff, which was too long for my first post, and the Scriptures had to come first.

    What I am about to say may not follow the usual pattern of posts on this blog. I have a daughter, Rebecca, who was born with a chromosomal condition that causes anomalies of the brain, bones, heart, internal organs, eyes, ears, digestive system, skin, etc. After her birth, I prayed a desperately honest new Mom’s prayer: “Father, I think I can handle the ‘head thing’ but not the ‘heart thing,’ as if I could ‘handle’ any of it! My husband and I prayed for Rebecca constantly, had her prayed for by the church elders, and took her to faith healers. A repeat echocardiogram was scheduled for about 8 wks. of age. The day of the test I had been instructed to sit across from the cardiologist as she dictated a letter to parents whose baby was recovering from the surgery Rebecca would be scheduled for if the anomaly remained. Her ‘echo’ showed no anomaly! The week before surgery to reshape Rebecca’s skull, a new acquaintance, who knew we were praying for a complete healing, called and asked what I would think if Rebecca wasn’t healed without surgery. I paused, then told her, “God will still be God. I will still know that He loves me, Mike, and Rebecca.” Post-surgery, after weeks of carrying Rebecca, I developed a horrible back problem. I had to roll out of bed one morning and pull myself up on furniture. A Christian friend came that day to check on Rebecca. After she left, the doorbell rang again. She said, “I believe that you have another need.” I then told her about my back. Truthfully, I hadn’t told her, because my sense that I was worthy of having a prayer for healing answered had been shaken. As she prayed, intense warmth traveled from my waist downward. Knowing God’s Word has stood me in good stead in many difficult circumstances. God answers my prayers according to His will, for His glory and my good. Rebecca will be 22 soon and is a joy!

  33. Jeffrey says:

    Matt Miller, let me ask you something

    You quoted Psalms 82:1-8… Did you purposely capitalize the G in gods, when in scripture it is not capitalized?

    Do I have to quote on what the Bible means when it mentions there are many “gods” (small g)?

    You also quote Revelation 1:6 as if it references that God the father also has a father. But you simply just read it wrong. “Unto God and His Father” means unto the God we worship, and the Father of Jesus Christ, who is the same God. Read the NIV translation if you need it laid out in a more simple way for you to understand.

    You then quote James 1:5. I’m surprised you didn’t change out the word wisdom for the word knowledge. Do you not know the difference between wisdom and knowledge? google it.

    Since when do you think Christians don’t believe in person revelation? We don’t need a prophet because many are given the gift of prophesy. (read through 2 Corinthians about that gift). However there must be a standard in which to judge the prophecy given by men. Today, we are to use the Word of God to compare the things taught from the pulpit. A pastor of my church can say anything he wants to and even claim it to be from God, am I just supposed to accept that? Hardly.

  34. Jeffrey says:

    It is funny you guys mention “Wisdom of Men” blocking us from “Knowing” the real truth.

    I suppose you believe God would have spoke to you personally about this supposed “lost gospel” found by Joseph Smith if Joseph Smith never even existed?

    Here’s the fact fella’s. The “Restored Gospel” IS men’s “Wisdom”. Joseph Smith said it, you said a prayer about it, and therefore you think it isn’t men’s wisdom given to you, but God is giving it to you.

    Joseph Smith himself was his own “Nicean Creed”. He came up with this “restored Gospel” on his own, and you guys believe it because of a spiritual/emotional experience you had. Forget his false prophecies, his obvious Book of Abraham debacle, etc..

    Tell you what. I prayed about the doctrine that the Nicean Creed had settled upon, and the Holy Spirit testified that it is sound and true doctrine. When I prayed about the BoM, I felt nothing. So God told me the LDS church is wrong, and that my belief is true. What do you have to say to that? You are going to tell me it wasn’t really God talking to me? That would be mighty hypocritical of you.

  35. falcon says:


  36. germit says:

    GRC: I’ll burn a post on a simple statement, a simple agreement. You wrote “the same exact spirit and power that says Jesus is the Christ (my addition: that would be the Jesus of the LDS variety) also says that JS was a prophet and the kingdom of God on the earth today IS the LDS church.” You and I are in 100% agreement about that statement. I think we might disagree about just what that ‘spirit and power’ was and is. You will NEVER hear me say you guys don’t have a’power’ and ‘a witness’. Thanks for your posts. GERMIT PS: If character counts in a prophet, then the ‘red herrings’ you mentioned are not so red. Shouldn’t we hold leaders to the standards of Titus 1, among others ?? I know you have your doubts about the NT, but I’d say it gives clear direction about the kind of men that should be at the helm. Is it OK to measure your prophets, ANY prophets, by this God given standard ??

  37. germit says:

    GRC: sorry to bang on the history drum so much, but if you could briefly answer a historical question I’d be your gentile buddy: how WAS the bible put together, and who was doing this ? You SEEM , as best as I can tell, to believe that the same group that put the bible together killed the last of the prophets. Do I have that right ?? Even if I have that wrong, please give me just a thumbnail sketch of the bible’s being collected and recorded. Citations and sources get you bonus points, unless it is the Holy Spirit: remember that I AM quite the pig-dog. ENJOYING THE LIFE OF AN ANIMAL: GERMIT

  38. jackg says:


    WOW! It’s amazing how you disrespect the Bible, but yet try to use it to support your arguments about a doctrine that does not exist. Christian perfection is not equal to eternal progression which equals becoming a god. It’s sad that you defend such a position by attacking God’s word. Okay, so the Bible is merely a collection of writings. And, for me, the BOM is a fictional account of people that can’t be found. Believe in JS and the BOM and D&C and PGP, and discount the Bible as much as you want; as for me and my house, we will believe solely in Jesus Christ for our salvation and in the revealed word of God known as the biblical text. Against that text will all things be measured–especially my own emotions and spiritual experiences. Yes, you must defer to the Bible rather than to your own experiences, because your own experiences may be grounded in deception and lies.

  39. Nathan16 says:

    “How long can you sit on a cloud and play harp music?…The more you do what God asks, the more like him you will become.”

    C.S. Lewis put it best when he said something to the effect of the following: Some men may claim that they see no bliss in harps or halos. They should be told that if they do not understand poetic imagery for spiritual realities, they should not read books intended for adults. They might as well say that when Jesus commanded we cut off the hand that causes us to sin, He was advocating self-mutilation.

    I have no problem with God asking me to do something in heaven. I think God will have tasks in heaven; in a parable in the Gospels Jesus metaphorically speaks of God telling one servant to “take charge of ten cities”, etc.. It is the concept of becoming equivalent with God, being exalted, deified “Then shall they be gods, for… all things will be subject unto them”, etc. is where I take issue.
    The Christian concept of becoming God-like is very well explained by John the Baptist: “He must increase, but I must decrease” (John 3:30). No concept here of equality with God. Rather, as we become more “god-like” in the Christian sense, we emphasize that God is far greater. In a sense, it is like going from being a wall to a mirror. A wall is obviously itself, reflecting nothing, and is rather boring to look at. A mirror reflects the image of another, and is not so much itself as it is a reflection of someone else. Its purpose is not to be recognized as a mirror, but to reflect an image, that something else may be recognized. We certainly would not say that a mirror is the very thing it reflects, though! In the same way, as we become more “god-like”, we are certainly not God, but we emphasize His glory by reflecting and turning attention to Him rather than ourselves. That’s my understanding, but untrained in theology as I am, I yield my opinion to the real theologians.

  40. GRCluff says:


    I only meant to say the the leaders of the Holy Roman Empire endorsed the killing of Christians to eventually end the gift of prophesy. It is ironic that the beginning of Christian stability in the 3rd century was coordinated by none other than Contantine, himself the leader of the same Empire. It is the uninspired doctrines of that event that I reject. I prefer the inspired docrines of Joseph Smith.

    Pig dog? Not a child of God at all?

  41. falcon says:

    Where do you get this stuff? I mean the conclusions. It’s all 2 2=9. Your suppositions are from left field, really. There is a continual folow of what I call Mormon folk doctrine, urban legends and self-serving historical interpretation that no legitimate hisorian would claim. So we have a conspiracy or what? And the gift of prophesy was ended? Says who? You? And all the Mormons sit in the pews with their bobble heads going up and down never bothering to check some source other than the Mormon spin machine. The Mormon leaders have spoken and the thinking is done, that’s obvious.

    It’s obvious that you know very little of the piety and gifts of the Church Fathers. Joseph Smith was a second hand magician with a peek stone who couldn’t carry the bags of the intellectual and spiritual giants of the first 500 years of the Christian Church.

  42. Jeffrey says:

    The gift of prophesy was ended?

    I must be confused. I was reading 2 Corinthians recently (yesterday to be exact) and it talks about the gifts (gift of tongues, of prophesy, etc.) and it said that many are given those gifts. Is there somewhere later in the Bible where it says prophecy stopped?

    I have just imagined that God said all that he had needed to in order to show us how to have salvation.

    Instead, the Mormon church and its “prophets” come in like some sort of mediator between Christ and his faithful. The temple recommend itself is designed for a LDS faithful to show that they are “worthy”. How is a Bishop given the ability to determine ones worthiness? Why can’t it be God himself? Trying to take away his powerful connection with those who so greatly desire him?

    It’s completely backwards. It’s like confessing your sins to a priest in the catholic church.. Why do you need to do that when Christ is our great high priest?

    You’re telling me that if I drink coffee, I can’t go to the temple because I’m breaking the word of wisdom, therefor I can’t get my endowments, therefore I can’t achieve celestial exaltation? All because of a drink of coffee? Give me a celestial break here.

  43. GRCluff says:

    Yes the gift of prophesy ended.

    2 Thes 2 mentions a falling away:

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    To quote from Hugh B. Brown:
    The apostles and prophets predicted an apostasy, and great historians such as Mosheim and Eusebius and others record it as a fact. We are not alone among the churches in proclaiming a universal apostasy. The Church of England frankly sets it forth in the following words: “So that laity and clergy, learned and unlearned, all ages, sects, and degrees of men, women, and children of whole Christendom * * * * have been at once drowned in abominable idolatry * * * * and that by the space of eight hundred years and more.” (Homily Against Peril of Idolatry.) John Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, comments as follows on the early decline of spiritual power and the cessation of the divine gifts and graces within the church: “It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian; . . . From this time they almost totally ceased, very few instances of the kind being found. The cause of this was not, as has been supposed, because there was no more occasion for them, because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause of it was that the love of many, almost all Christians, so called, was waxed cold. The Christians had no more of the spirit of Christ than the other heathens. . . .

    Yes prophesy ended.

  44. falcon says:

    First of all who is Hugh B. Brown? Never heard of the guy. Give a little bio with some credentials. Church of England said…..reference please.

    The great apostasy? Back to the drawing board. The great apostasy occurs right before Christ return. To my knowledge, Jesus hasn’t returned yet.

    John Wesley? Give a reference please where he said what you quoted.

    Let me help you out a little. There are denominations within the Christian family that are known as cessationists. That is, they subscribe more to a dispensationalist view of theology. They believe that the charasmatic gifts of the Holy Spirit were no longer needed when the cannon of scripture was closed. However there are other denominations that believe that the gifts of the Spirit did not cease with the close of the cannon of scripture and that they are still available today. It would come as a shock to those who manifest the gifts that they (gifts) are no longer in operation today, including the gift of prophesy. I can give you information on upcoming prophetic conferences if you would like to attend. It would do you good.

    Sorry, but the man with the rock in the hat didn’t restore anything, because nothing needed to be restored. Christ always maintained His Church. The Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost and has never been removed from the church. Mormonism is false.

  45. falcon says:


  46. Jeffrey says:

    So Cluff, you can’t show biblically that the gift of prophecy has ended. You describe a falling away that is interpreted by LDS as it has already happened and we are just waiting on Jesus now. Christians however interpret it as the falling away has yet to come or is in its early stages. (I personally believe its in its early stages as the world is just getting worse and worse, following deceivers of men into a false gospel, which could very well be the LDS church.)– Think about this.. If the LDS church is getting bigger and bigger and bringing more and more people into believing it’s gospel, the prophecy of falling away found in the Bible is being fulfilled as we speak, and what better way for Satan to deceive by providing a un-saving gospel instead of just having people become heathens.

    The fact is that as long as there was one true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ had/has the gift of prophecy, it has not been lost.

  47. germit says:

    Simple question for GRC: if in fact the ‘falling away’ mentioned on 2cd Thess was a reference to an apostasy that has already happened, and thousands of years ago at that, then WHO IS THE SON OF PERDITION?? Not only do you get biblical bonus points when you get this question right, you can write a bestseller, do a screenplay, and put out a video/DVD series. There is a HUGE market for this kind of thing. I’m hoping the son of P. is not my pastor, I’ve grown quite used to him. GERMIT

  48. falcon says:

    In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said that He would build His Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. According to Mormon apostasy theory, Jesus either lied or He wasn’t capable of fullfilling His promise. According to Mormon apostle Orson Pratt, the gates of hell DID prevail against Christ Church (Journal of Discourse). So what kind of Good Shepard was Jesus according to this Mormon apostle?Supposedly, according to Mormons, in order for the apostasy to have taken place all of the apostles had to be killed or at least dead. And yet in the BoM, it is my understanding that three Nephite apostles are still alive. Also, according to D&C sec. 7 the apostle John is still alive. So where are these guys? Are they lurking around the temple in Salt Lake City. There probably disguised as temple workers. More likely, they’ve hooked-up with the FLDS. There can’t be any apostasy because they’re still around right? I think Mormons have themselves in a double bind and it will take some more creative mind bending apologetics to weasel out of it.

  49. jackg says:


    The Spirit spoke through you, brother. Praise the LORD for using such a fallen and broken humanity, the weakest of vessels, to proclaim His truth.


    You, too, are definitely filled with the Spirit of God, defending the faith with love and boldness. Praise the LORD for that!

    Matt and GRC,

    Think about the position you’re in trying to defend the teachings of the LDS Church. You have to villify men that God called throughout the ages that have served to maintain the gospel message and plan of salvation as found in the Bible. Then, you have to attack the Bible itself and denigrate to a mere collection of writings that you don’t seem to accept as God’s word unless, through eisegesis, you can use it to buttress your claims. Do you really think this is a position that God would call anyone to? The red flags are there. Don’t be blind to them any longer. Your salvation depends on it.

  50. GRCluff says:


    The quote is from
    John Wesley’s Works, Vol. VII, 89; 26-27.

    The rest of the quote is from a book by Hugh B. Brown.

    (Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965]

    One of those Salt Lake City publishers you like to ignore. He was an apostle or something like that in the 1960’s


    Joseph Smith had volumes of revelations to share with the world. Where are the works of all the true prophets you mention? Do any of them actually claim the gift of prophesy?

    I have more Bible refernces. I don’t want to bury you with Biblical quotes. You could get discouraged.

    Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    If the gospel never left the earth, why would we need a restitution?

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