In a recent article on Mormon Times, LDS author Orson Scott Card wrote a column about books. Books he’s seen, books he’s read, and “Mormon books [he’ll] do without.” Much of the article was written a bit tongue-in-cheek, but Mr. Card got serious when he wrote about the LDS mission he served in Brazil in the early 1970s.
“There have been church books that changed my life. On my mission, I read then-Apostle Spencer W. Kimball’s ‘The Miracle of Forgiveness,’ which was so warm and open and real that it touched my heart and gave me great hope, as I realized that this was a part of the gospel I was in Brazil to teach.”
I, too, read “The Miracle of Forgiveness” when I began my mission to bring the Gospel to Latter-day Saints. And like Mr. Card’s experience, it touched my heart, as well. But not in the same way.
When I read “The Miracle of Forgiveness” my heart broke for the LDS people. If Mr. Kimball’s teaching is believed, Latter-day Saints live under a sin burden from which they can never escape.
“The Miracle of Forgiveness” says that gaining forgiveness for sins requires the successful completion of a six-step repentance process, which includes a permanent abandonment of sin and keeping all the commandments of God. In other words, to be forgiven one must reach a state of perfection:
“Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us… Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.” (page 208-209)
“Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. A reforming adulterer who drinks or curses is not repentant. The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life.” (page 203)
“There is one crucial test of repentance. This is abandonment of the sin. Desire is not sufficient. In other words, it is not real repentance until one has abandoned the error of his ways and started on a new path… the saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life. Trying is not sufficient.” (page 163)
Christian friends, is this not heartbreaking? The “gospel” Orson Scott Card was sent to Brazil to preach was that “the repentance which merits forgiveness” is found in one’s own work and worthiness. One must perfectly and completely abandon all sin, and then (as Moroni 10:32 in the Book of Mormon states) Christ’s grace is applied. This is an impossible gospel.
Furthermore, “The Miracle of Forgiveness” maligns the genuine Good News, the biblical Gospel of grace:
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pages 206-207)
The Bible does not agree with Spencer W. Kimball. The Bible does not teach “that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). The Bible teaches that it is “by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8). We do not earn or merit forgiveness by keeping the all the commandments of God; rather, “If we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
The Good News is that “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). “We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Galatians 2:16). Indeed, “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy” (Titus 3:5).
Pastor John Piper wrote,
“Forgiveness costs us nothing. All our costly obedience is the fruit, not the root, of being forgiven. That’s why we call it grace. But it cost Jesus His life. That is why we call it just. Oh, how precious is the news that God does not hold our sins against us! And how beautiful is Christ, whose blood made it right for God to do this.” (Fifty Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die, page 37)
Yes, in the Gospel given to us in God’s Word there is much to rejoice over. Jesus came to remove our yoke of slavery and our burden of sin. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life” (John 6:47).
Amen.
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For Further reading:
The LDS Repentance Quiz
Bill McKeever’s review of The Miracle of Forgiveness
Greetings…new commentor to this blog…I live near Independence, MO so I have had exposure to many “churches” based on the BOM and the prophet Joseph Smith…I have recently tried my hand at using the LDS webchat and toll-free line to ask a few questions…some of them will banter back and forth a bit but usually the wagons get circled and you simply have to “read and pray” and they have to go…I have even presented the gospel as I believe it (sins forgiven…declared righteous before God) and asked what could have gone missing from that? What more could anyone want? Why would I give that up for a gospel of works? The veil is indeed thick. We on the outside see all the many “smoking guns” but they refuse to look at them because they already have the “burning.” It is sad. Looking forward to good conversation…Blessings!
I just want to say AMEN to Pastor Piper’s words. As usual, LDS leaders get things backwards. We respond to God’s grace with lives of obedience; God doesn’t respond to our obedience with grace. Anything earned is not grace, but payment. The gospel of Jesus Christ is not one of God paying us for anything, but of pouring His grace all over us simply because He loves us–a love just because.
Thanks for the post, Sharon.
Hey folks, I have been in Salt Lake for the past 4 days for a wedding! It is rather beautiful up there. Anyways it is good to be back. Funny thing is my wifes family, all LDS, were going to go to temple square and had invited us (my wife left Mormonism this year) to go with them. I was thinking, cool, maybe I will see some of the MRM people up there (Aaron, Bill, Sharon, etc) but alas, we decided to go eat dinner with my brother and his family instead. I believe it was an attempt to get my wife to have some warm fuzzy feelings by the stunning architecture of the temple and what not, but maybe I’m just reading too much into things, anyways. The next day we were invited to church, but we declined. Afterwards my father in law told her “we missed you”. Her little brother said to me “You guys missed out”, to which I replied.. “Oh yeah? Were they handing out cash or something?” lol.
I understand my FIL’s reasoning to attempt to bring my wife back to Mormonism, because he “knows” its true, but I’m sure he read the not so much miracle of forgiveness and I just don’t see how you could invite someone back to an impossible gospel in which without complete moral and obedient perfection there is no saving?
This is a simple article Sharon, but yet very very profound. How do LDS cope with Kimballs statements? I can’t believe he has the audacity to say that if you simply miss a meeting, you wont receive forgiveness. I must have missed Christ talk about the importance of meetings and the salvation that is tied to it. The jesus of Mormonism’s yoke seems to be unbearable.
(Question for evangelicals that attend the Manti Pageant and what not) – when you bring up those statements in Kimball’s book, how do the LDS people you speak to respond?
continued…
If you have to work so hard and obtain perfection for forgiveness, in WHAT way is that a miracle? When I work hard at work and complete projects and get a bonus, do I say.. “Wow this paycheck is a miracle!”? No. I worked hard for it, I did it, and I deserve it.
The first Mormon to obtain that perfection Kimball outlined would probably be Jesus Christ himself returned, except that I dont believe he would be Mormon.
I have done nothing and cannot do anything to deserve salvation. Grace be to God for giving his son Jesus Christ for doing the work only he can do, and forgiving me for my sins.
Amen! Amen!
My church has had this theme over the past year about being transparent in our brokenness -I think it takes a great deal of humility to do that. We will readily admit that we are very broken humans and only Christ can make us whole. For a Mormon to admit they’re not perfect means to admit that they’re not getting into the CK… no wonder so many Mormons (over 50% in Utah) are on anti-depressants. Faith in the Christ of the Bible is so liberating, especially after living with the pressures of Mormon perfection.
Side note for Jeffrey: oh I know! When I stopped going, my mom would always say “So-and-so was asking about you. Such-and-such-person really missed you.” It’s subversive/passive-aggressive attempt at a guilt trip. I like your response!
The blog Of First Importance had this great quote yesterday:
In the book you cite, Sharon, it seems:
* People who need forgiveness would not qualify (being sinners)
* People who qualify for forgiveness would have no need (having lived the law)
The author states that one may be guaranteed forgiveness of sin by living all the commandments. He says this is a mandate from God. He reasons, since God is wise and kind, he would never make such a requirement if it were not attainable. Therefore, it must be in man’s power to do this.
Actually, God knows that no one can. The law was given to show that the entire world is guilty before God.
Consider the following commentary upon Galatians 1:4. It was part of a lecture series Martin Luther delivered at the University of Wittenberg in 1531.
[quote]“Who gave himself for our sins…”
He does not say, “Who received our works,” but “who gave.” Gave what? Not gold, or silver, or paschal lambs, or an angel, but Himself. What for? Not for a crown, or a kingdom, or our goodness, but for our sins. These words are like so many thunderclaps of protest from heaven against every kind and type of self-merit. …
Note especially the pronoun “our” and its significance. You will readily grant that Christ gave Himself for the sins of Peter, Paul, and others who were worthy of such grace. But feeling low, you find it hard to believe that Christ gave Himself for your sins. Our feelings shy at a personal application of the pronoun “our,” and we refuse to have anything to do with God until we have made ourselves worthy by good deeds.
This attitude springs from a false conception of sin, the conception that sin is a small matter, easily taken care of by good works; that we must present ourselves unto God with a good conscience; that [b]we must feel no sin before we may feel that Christ was given for our sins.[/b]
This attitude is universal and particularly developed in those who consider themselves better than others.[/quote]
Does the above describe the attitude of [i]The Miracle of Forgiveness[/i]?
The faith vs. works has to be one of the oldest debates around. Here is my brief attempt to explain it. By saying that we are “saved by grace after all we can do,” we are not suggesting that we do any significant portion of the work in meeting the demands of justice. We are saying it is our duty to do our very best to QUALIFY for the Grace of Christ.
Here is an analogy: My 8 year old daughter dreams of buying a new bicycle. She approaches me and asks if I will help. I tell her she must work hard over the summer, doing jobs and saving money. If she does her best, I will make up the difference. Summer comes and goes, she has worked very hard and saved 5 cents (humor me). I know she has done her best, so I put up the $189.50 needed to buy her the bicycle agreed upon.
In reality, this story is disproportionate. Christ’s grace is much, much greater than in my dumb story. It is by HIS works that we are justified- it has never been taught in the LDS church that we are justified by our works- never!
Is this take on faith and works really that abominable? Can you see we do believe absolutely that we are saved by grace. We just believe that Christ expects us to do our best. As He told the adulterer, “go and sin no more.”
This is the absolute core of our belief on this issue. WE CANNOT SAVE OURSELVES. We ARE saved by grace.
OK…I can’t resist asking this one…how on earth does one QUALIFY for unmerited favor? Check out the word in a Greek lexicon. I have heard mercy referred to as “not getting what you deserve” and grace as “getting what you DON’T deserve.” I’m gonna go with grace myself…Blessings!
Jeffrey writes,
“I have done nothing and cannot do anything to deserve salvation.”
If this is the case – everyone is saved.
p.s. Maybe your wife’s family just had fun and thought you missed out on that.
DJB: you have the persistence of a raccoon left inside the Piggly Wiggly; I would just ask that you make up your mind: is it “WE CANNOT SAVE” or is it “WE CAN ONLY SAVE 5cents from a tab of $189.50” you seem to be insistent to pay SOMETHING in order to show true repentence; that is the big diff. between your LDS position and orthodoxy: As christians, we know we have zero,zip,zilch,nada, goose-egg to offer God in payment (unless you want to count filthy rags as ‘something’) FIRST the FREE gift of grace accepted, then the works that demonstrate a repentant heart, not as payment of anything, more as a ‘thank you’ , weak as that sounds. Keep posting, and tell your friends: it seems the christian contingent is somehow multiplying like conservative catholics (smile)
Matthew 7:21 states, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in Heaven.”
The old English word “doeth” or “do” can be looked up in a dictionary. Surprisingly enough, it is a VERB. A verb word means ACTION.
Do – to perform an act, duty, role, etc.
To PERFORM. This is also a verb. A verb means doing. A verb means action.
Jesus was certainly NOT a modern day “Christian.” Else why would he speak of doing?
Susan…and this might muddy the waters for the LDS crowd…but keep in mind Jesus was speaking to Jews…who DID have to keep the Law…when interpreting Scripture it is key to know who is speaking to whom (especially Jew versus Gentile).
LDSSTITANIC –
Sorry, I disagree.
Jesus did not come to preach the law of Moses even to the Jews, but to bring a higher law.
Are you saying the entire Sermon on the Mount can be disregarded by modern day “Christians” because it was being spoken to the Jews?
You do realize that this is part of the Sermon on the Mount?
Also, what about James 2:17-18 “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
How can you so blindly ignore these scriptures on works in the New Testament? We are ultimately saved by grace, absolutely b/c we cannot EVER save ourselves no matter HOW GOOD we try to be. Part of this is due to the “fall” of Adam. We are in a sinful state. Part of it is our own sins, which we overcome through repentance ( a work) and the atonement (grace).
germit: If a person has 5 cents to put toward a bike that costs $190, how much bicycle does he walk away with? None. This is my point. We cannot even come close to the demands of justice. But we must do our very best to obey the commandments.
Many here claim the LDS disregard or do not fully appreciate the offering of Christ because we believe we must be obedient. Consider this: You have 2 friends. One works two jobs and is very frugal, but comes to you one week and asks for money because he is short. The other friend doesn’t have a job and sits around most of the time. He approaches you EVERY week asking for money. Which friend takes you for granted? Which is more grateful?
Christ paid an unimaginable price for sin. By keeping the commandments, do we not show our gratitude to Christ? If we commit the same sins over and over and just take it for granted that Christ suffered the punishment, is that gratitude. Did he not say, “if ye love me keep my commandments.” There is a very direct relationship. The more I sin, the more suffering He had to endure for me.
The reason that mormons don’t get grace is because they misunderstand sin, who they are and who God is. God’s standard is perfection, and that perfection is only found in Christ. We cannot of our own merit participate in that grace, otherwise it is not grace. By nature all men are sinners, dead in that sin and already headed for an eternal hell. Spiritually dead men, naturally at enmity with God are unable and indeed unwilling to do any good works to be saved. God made Him who knew no sin to become sin for us, and in doing so made us partakers of the righteousness of Christ. It is only by the grace of God that ANY are saved. If Christ died to make salvation available to all men, dependent only on their good works to complete it, then He really did nothing and the glory for salvation belongs to us, not Him.
We show our gratitude because God saved us apart from our works, in spite of our works, and because of that we serve Him, but we are not saved by our service. The order is wrong in mormonism. Mormonism believes we are saved because of our good works, the Bible teaches that we do good works because we are saved.
I have some questions and comments.
Question #1: Does not Christianity believe that Christ gave the mandate to be perfect? If so, then how is perfection defined and what does it mean to attain it?
Question #2:
Is obtaining grace contingent on anything we do?
I’ll admit that it is hard for me to keep up with all the varieties of Christian doctrine but for those on this blog are big being saved by grace. No contingencies, right? But two of the scriptures cited above are both contingency clauses. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever BELIEVES has eternal life” (John 6:47) and “IF WE CONFESS our sins, [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
Jeffrey,
You miss the point. Kimball isn’t saying that if you miss a meeting you won’t be forgiven. He is talking about a pattern of behavior (meetings). You will manifest yourself, it will show that you really don’t believe.
I don’t understand why it is so difficult to grasp the coorelation between Faith in Christ and doing those things which He has commanded. Kimball is saying that Christ has set the conditions upon which His grace will be applied. If we have faith in Him we will do all we can to comply with His terms.
As stated above:
“We know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through FAITH IN Jesus Christ”
I know it hurts to have someone tell you that you don’t really have faith in Christ. Isn’t this the central issue? Faith in Jesus Christ! It is the first and least understood principle of the gospel. It means doing what the Lord says. Faith is not a passive term. The way it is viewed today it evidence that people do not understand the scriptures.
Are we perfect? No. But notice that nowhere in Kimball’s quote does he say we must be perfect in this life. Only striving the best we can to comply with the terms set down by the Savior (Belief, confession, faith). Consider, “What manner of men ought ye to be?”
DJB: I like the analogies: you write, “we cannot even come close to the demands of justice..” well said: that is exactly why GOD DOES NOT WANT YOUR 5CENTS TOWARD THE BIKE. Offering to pay for even a small part (remember we are talking about justice, not gratitude) only offends a holy God, who offered up the blood of His Son as payment. Gratitude for that gift is called for: the payment of our lives (the idea that we do our ‘best’ or give our ‘all’ I find doubtful, but God knows) is indeed in order but this has nothing to do with satisfying God’s Holy wrath. I fear that you are going to approach God with your 5cents, expecting Him to pick up “HIS part” and you will find out too late, that was never the arrangement. I know this sounds like ‘easy believism’ which I loathe as much (I think) as you do, but don’t mess with the deal God has set forth: for our Atonement, it is ‘JESUS PLUS NOTHING’ it is our trust in that arrangemnet that is saving faith, and if that faith is real, it will produce the fruit of thankfulness and gratitude.
DOF, how are we perfect? We are not. That is the point. But He is and by grace He has imputed that righteousness to His sheep just as He took upon Himself the due punishment for the sins of His people. This captures it perfectly:
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
He became sin for sinners, and sinners became righteous by Him. We are saved by faith, but you don’t have faith in and of yourself. You don’t come to Christ in faith, He grants you a new heart (Eze 36:26) and faith itself is not found in yourself but is a gift from God.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Eph 2:8-9)
Faith itself is a gift, not found in ourselves naturally but granted to us by God. If God doesn’t change your heart, you cannot come to Him in faith because that must be granted by grace to you as well. Faith does not mean: “It means doing what the Lord says.” Faith is a gift from God.
I think is important to point out the difference in the use of the word “saved” between Mormons and Trinitarian Christians.
Mormons believe that Jesus gave us all the free gift of “salvation” which equates to resurrection. All will be resurrected but only those who follow the steps of Mormonism like baptism, temple endowment, temple marriage and enduring to the end will make it to the Celestial Kingdom (the ultimate Heaven). Sounds like “works” to me.
Christians think of salvation as reaching Heaven not just being resurrected. To Mormons, if you are just resurrected but do not go through the steps they prescribe, then you just make it to the Telestial Kingdome where you will get to live forever with all of the murderers, thieves and sinners.
That sounds like a great plan to me…sign me and my wife up. Oh wait, I just left the LDS church so am now doomed to live with the rest of the world that has not chosen to live life as a Mormon. At least I will be in good company. With less then 1% of the world population choosing Mormonism (and not even all of them will make it), their Heaven will be a lonely place.
Has it occured to anyone that forgiveness of sin is conditional? Conditioned on what? Here are your options:
1. Nothing at all i.e. I can sin all I want.
2. Lip service. Accept Christ and I can sin all I want.
3. Confess you sins, then sin all you want.
4. Baptism. Get baptised and I can sin all I want.
4. Wait, maybe I have to show real intent by abandoning sin? Be careful now, you are rejecting the concept of grace and agreeing with Mormons!
Grace applies to those who abandon sin and want the damage done by sin removed. Yes Christ does that.
Grace also applies to those who need help to abandon sin. They lack the stregnth alone, so they ask Christ for help. Yes Christ does that too.
If no sin is abandoned, no grace is found.
Actually Soy Yo, you don’t get to even the mediocre level of heaven, you are stuck in outer darkness with people like me, reserved for murderers and mormon apostates.
GRCluff, if you think that you are able to abandon sin without the grace of God you are delusional. You are dead in your sins, and dead men don’t repent. Forgiveness of sin is conditional, but the conditions have been fulfilled by Christ on the cross. You may be putting on a show of personal piety and “worthiness” but if your heart isn’t changed by God it is all a facade and He ain’t fooled. You may fool people (including yourself) with your show of piety, but Christ isn’t fooled. Being a Christian and being saved by grace is not a license to sin, and no one is espousing antinomianism, but outward righteousness means nothing. WHen we are regenerated, born again our desire is to please Him in gratitude. I serve Him not out of obligation but out of gratitude.
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean. “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. (Matt 23:25-28)
Sido,
You are rejecting the Savior explicit command: “Be ye therefore PERFECT!” Just because you are not perfect, are you going to say to the Savior “You don’t know what you are talking about” “I have faith in you but will not attempt to do the things you say”. That equates to no faith. To me, that’s the point! We would not attempt to be perfect, if the Savior did not command it. I am no where near perfect, but I will not tell the Savior He does not have the power to make me perfect. I will simply do the best I can to comply with His commands. Isn’t that what faith is? The evidence of things not seen.
You sound confused about the degree of glories described by Paul. It may be warranted to review Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants about those who fight against the Son after the Father reveals him. The rest of the world may fair quite a bit better.
Susan –
Wanted to respond to your poor exegesis of Matthew 7:21. Jesus tells us that we must do the will of our Father in Heaven. You read this through Mormon indoctrine to mean keep the commandments, but this is unbiblical. Actually, Jesus defines for us what it means to do the Fathers will in John 6:40:
“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ”
Notice that Jesus defines the will of God as simply having faith in the Son of God. He does not say that the will of God is that you keep the rules well enough to try to impress God with your faithfulness.
Also, please go to the next verse of your Matthew scripture. Verse 22 talks about the kind of people who are being rejected by Jesus at the last day:
” (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?”
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
LDS posters: Please look at the attitude of the people who are being rejected. Didn’t we do so much? Didn’t we have wonderful works for you? And yet they are rejected by Christ. Why?
[Continued]
[Continuation of Previous Post]
As Paul writes to the Romans in chapter 10:
“1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
”
Paul points out something of a spiritual cyanide pill that not only Israel, but so many of us fall victim to. Rather than accepting the righteousness of Christ as a substitute for our own brokeness, we pride ourselves into thinking that somehow we can get it right ourselves. We can be good enough, righteous enough, worthy enough and then receive Christ’s gift once we have gotten everything straigtened out on our end. THIS is why the people of Matthew 7:22 are cast out. Rather than receive the wonderful gift that Christ offers, they have decided that they can be good enough on their own (as they indicate in their response). By doing this, they completely miss out on Christ’s true and wonderful gift.
AMEN, Ed! Good exegesis of Matt. 7:21-23! Along those same lines, Jesus responded to those who asked Him what they could do to “work the works of God” (John 6:28). “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent” (John 6:29).
I agree with Ed on this. The Bible teaches us that we are to submit to God’s plan for our salvation, not our plan. The heart of the Jews’ rejection of Christ was in this very thing. Paul describes it: “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God” (Romans 10:3).
“All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6)
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5-6).
This is not to say I agree with any of the posts that indicate Christians think grace is a license to sin…
more in next post…
I would like to expand upon my view of law and grace a bitt…
The NT explains that Jesus came “under the law” (Gal. 4:4), during the period of the Mosaic covenant when the law was a “schoolmaster” to bring us to Christ (Gal. 3:24-25). This is why Jesus was often pointing people toward the law, expanding the law, and exposing the hypocrisy of those who focused on outward appearances only and failed to see the depravity of their inward thoughts, motivations, and judgments (Matt. 5:27-28, Matt 15:19). The law was a “schoolmaster” to show us the utter failure of mankind to achieve God’s righteous standards through our own efforts. After His resurrection and ascension, the rest of the NT expounds upon the finished work of Christ and how a new covenant believer is justified and sanctified through faith apart from the works of the law.
When He died, the law was nailed to the cross (Colossians 2:14-17) and Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law “that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith” (Gal. 3:13-14).
Throughout the NT, the law and the flesh are often used interchangeably and are contrasted with life in the Spirit. The law is often associated with terms such as “death,” “bondage,” and “condemnation.” The new covenant (life in the Spirit) is described as “above,” “higher,” “heavenly,” “of the Spirit,” “free.”
II Cor. 3:6-18 describes the law and the 10 commandments as “the ministration of death,” “the ministration of condemnation,” and “the letter that killeth,” and contrasts the law with “the ministration of righteousness” and “the ministration of the Spirit” which “giveth life.”
This passage declares that the law “is done away” and “abolished” in Christ and describes those who are still under the law as those whose minds are blinded by the vail of the Old Testament which vail is “done away in Christ.”
[cont. in next post]
(cont from last post)
This passage (II Cor. 3:6-18) sheds light on how we are transformed into the image of Christ. It is not by focusing on the law and striving to keep it, but by “beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord” whereby we “are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
So by “looking unto Jesus” (Heb. 12:2), “the author and finisher of our faith” we can be transformed into His likeness. We cannot sanctify ourselves through our own efforts. We can only abide in Christ and walk in His Spirit when we become dead to the law and to our own efforts and become “married to Christ” (Romans 6-7, Col. 3:1-3, Gal. 2:19-21). “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” (Rom. 8:1).
My understanding of Jeffrey’s comment – “I have done nothing and cannot do anything to deserve salvation” makes perfect sense to me in light of the passages I have provided here. We are not able to do anything to save ourselves and “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6) – God looks on our futile efforts of self-improvement as “filthy rags” – His Word says the only thing that satisfies His righteous wrath against sin is the sacrificial death of His Son and He counts as righteous anyone who places their faith in Him alone to be their righteousness (Romans. 3-5).
These scriptures below, including teachings from our Saviour Himself, show that works/actions are vital to our final judgement.
Matt 25:31-43 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his aright hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me…Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Rev 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
My second paragraph on my last posting looks like it was directed to Sido. My apologies. Was directed to Soy Yo.
Someone made the comment before that they were a Calvinist, which he was promptly rebutted by the moderator. But all these comments are Calvinism to the core. Obviously, this is not a discussion on different Protestant beliefs, but we can hardly get away from this when the discussion revolves around repentance, forgiveness and grace/works. I think it is interesting to note that while this system of belief (TULIP) we are not alone in condemning this flawed approach to the scriptures. These are the conclusions of John Wesley regarding Calvinism:
…this doctrine not only tends to destroy Christian holiness, happiness, and good works, but hath also a direct and manifest tendency to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation. The point which the wisest of the modern unbelievers most industriously labour to prove, is, that the Christian Revelation is not necessary.
I agree with him 100%, especially with regard to our personal accountability when it comes to repentance. Saying we have no part or responsibility in the repentance process would overthrow the whole Christian Revelation if it weren’t for restoration of vital gospel truth. Thank the Lord for the keystone, for restoring plain and precious truths, and returning the living oracles He promised to send.
Moderator’s Note: Just to clarify, what you have referred to as a rebuttal by a moderator was no such thing. My previous note merely requested that the merits or demerits of Calvinism not be discussed here, on a blog dedicated to discussion of issues related to Mormonism.
In Matt 7:21-23, Jesus describes 4 groups of people – those who believe and do, those who believe and don’t do, then those who don’t believe but do and those who don’t believe and don’t do. Those who believe and do are the only ones saved. If we cross reference this with James where he discusses faith he says that faith without works is dead. He also states that the devils believe in God and tremble. So this denotes a difference between belief and faith. Faith is a doing word, belief is not. So out of the 4 groups of people Jesus is discussing in Matt 7, only those who have true faith in Him (ie believe and do) are the ones that are saved.
We LDS teach that our works/actions should come from our faith in Jesus, and not for our own edification/boasting else they will not profit us on the day of judgment. So those who carry on and say that they did the works of God are the ones who did not fully/properly believe but did the works for their own glory.
There is also the parable of the 10 virgins. This is discussing the true believers of Jesus (we LDS teach that it is just our church but I am putting it into your perspective). We know this because they are waiting patiently for the groom’s party to pass, and we know it is only the faithful that are waiting for Him to come. Only 5 of them were ready with enough oil to last the night for the groom’s party the 5 foolish did not have enough oil and were not ready when the party went past. Why were they not ready? What does it mean to be ready? Why couldn’t the 5 wise lend their oil to the foolish? If they are true believers in Jesus then why weren’t they allowed into the feast despite not having enough oil?
Susan,
You seem to not read the words I use. I said I can’t do anything to DESERVE salvation. Which is completely true. What sinful humankind DESERVES is death. I accept God’s gift of salvation by doing God’s work. What is God’s work? Let His Word tell us! John 6: 28-29 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” {29} Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Susan you just seem to not get the fact that you cant qualify yourself for a gift. A gift is given freely and isn’t dependent upon your preparation to receive the gift. You simply have to either accept or reject. Thats why DJB’s analogy is flawed. That bike wasn’t a gift given freely to his daughter. A better analogy is Him saying “trust (have faith!) in me that I am the deliverer of bicycles, and you shall receive.” – This has been pointed out time and time again in the Bible.
God wants us to humble ourselves and admit our broken state, that without him, we are hopeless. This is what makes hope hope, and grace grace, and mercy mercy. Our extreme weakness is in huge contrast to his extreme strength. But you keep on supporting men who bring God’s divinity down to a human level, saying that he was simply just another guy who became a God.. That heresy makes me sick to my stomach.
What about James 2:17-18 and Matt. 7:21. Hey, lets throw in James 1:5 too. If you think these help support your agenda, your way off base. These are beautiful verses that allow us to see through human eyes those that sincerely have faith and those that don’t. Anyone can say “I have faith in God”, but the fruits of the spirit end up coming to the surface when one has faith. Blindly ignore? I’m afraid not, I embrace these verses. Thank you for bringing them up.
(continued)…
DJB, nice two friends analogy. You continue to show you just dont seem to get it. You forgot to show that your friend who doesn’t have a job is UNABLE TO DO ANY WORK WORTH ANYTHING MORE THAN A FILTHY RAG BECAUSE OF HIS CONDITION!! (can you guess what “condition” means in this metaphor?) If he tries to build a car or cleans a bathroom, he falls flat on his face. It is shoddy workmanship. This is why Christ came, to do the work only he can do, and for us to just realize his power, his divinity, and most importantly his love for us. IT IS FINISHED indeed. DJB, you are at least correct to say that we show gratitude by doing our best, but you must keep in mind our best worth nothing in the “working out our own salvation” as your leaders like to push.
As far as the mandate to “be ye therefore perfect.” Do some study into the context that the Bible uses the word perfect. Noah was called a perfect man (Genesis 6:9), Job was called a perfect man (Job 1:1) Were they sinless? No. Perfect in the sense of the Bible has to do with maturity, completeness, wisdom. Do some leg work and find out what the meaning of the greek word used in the Bible means. Even Websters dictionary doesn’t show sinless as a definition of “Perfect”. What does one have to do for LDS to understand this?
DOF, show me some context about the pattern of behavior.
Wow, this subject is truly at the heart of the Christian Gospel! LDS friends, please read the New Testament, book by book, and see for yourselves what is the sum of its message. Rather than set a standard of righteousness that included a few only by excusing some heart-sins (the Law), God set a standard that EXCLUDED ALL by excusing NO sins; then sent Jesus to pay the price so that all could be saved “UNTO good works IN CHRIST” through faith in his substitutionary sacrifice PLUS NOTHING! BEAUTIFUL! If THIS Gospel can’t save you, name one that can!
There are so many parables that illustrate this: A servant is FORGIVEN a debt that he has asked for an extension on; then, misunderstanding grace, he calls in his own loans so that he can pay his already-forgiven debt, incurring the wrath of the master. A son who has squandered his inheritance begs for a servant’s (laborer’s) position in his father’s household, but is received as a son, to the disgust of his older brother who has “worked for the father his whole life”. Workers who have only picked grapes for a short time on promise of an unspecified “just” wage, receive the same amount (grace) as those who have worked all day for a prenegotiated (earned) wage. Grace seems scandalous and foolish to the self-righteous! God has consigned ALL men to death so that ALL might be saved on the same terms, through His merciful grace, rendered just by Christ’s sacrifice. Thanks be to God!
I’ve been a lurker for months now and this broke my heart so much I had to respond.
Ed, great description of Matt 7:21. To add my 2 cents…
Susan, always remember to look at the context of the verse you are quoting. Before Jesus says this He is warning us to beware of false prophets. A false prophet may think he is doing the work(or will) of the Lord and will still be rejected by Him. As stated earlier in scripture by Ed & in John 6:28-29,
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
God’s will for us is that we be saved(eternal life in Heaven) by believing in Jesus. If the false prophets had truly believed in Jesus, He wouldn’t reject them. Their “work” would be done because they had simply believed. Their “sheeps” clothing(good morals, church attendance, bringing the world more good news with another testament of Jesus Christ) hides the wolves(Jesus=resurrection, Jesus works=highest point in heaven, Jesus works eternal family=your own planet). This is NOT the gospel Jesus preached and the LDS try to dimish my Lord’s power by saying He’s not enough.
I don’t know enough yet about BOM, D&C, & PoGP to know if Jesus is quoted while he was purported to be in the Americas. But if He is, show me where He talks about all or even any of the extra stuff the LDS has added. Because that’s who my authority is. Seems pointless to me for Him to start His church in the Holy Land with one set of rules and then give a different set to the mormon tribes.
Ralph: when it comes to reading the Bible, read SLOWER AND FARTHER. short question, according to Romans 3, just how many ‘doers of the law’ are there?? did you miss vs.9 and following:
What then, are we ,the Jews) better? Not in any way,for we previously brought a charge against both Jews and Gentiles that all are under sin; As it stands written: There is not a righteous person, not even one. There is not the one who understands; there is not the one who seeks out God. All turned aside, all to a man became useless…verse20: out of works of law, there shall not be justified any flesh in His sight, for through law is a full knowledge of sin. Paul’s point earlier was to point out that those who THINK they can gain their justification through the law are then (hopelessly)obligated to fulfill the law. Does Paul really mean that this is possible by us ?? In fact, the ‘importance’ of doing works seems to be that it just shows us clearly how impossible it is to do them, perfectly, and therefore how in need of grace we are as sinful, weak, habitual law breakers.
Susan…didn’t mean to seem to ignore your challenge…I blew through my first three comments with reckless abandon and found my hands tied before I even got started…haha!
Simply put…yes…James was the brother of Jesus and he took over the group of followers who stayed in Jerusalem. He was a Jew and he wrote to Jews. The “works” that he speaks of which would testify to his faith were indeed the 613 commandments of the Law of Moses which he kept. Of course this would exclude the sacrifices due to the Temple being destroyed.
My advice is to focus on Paul’s letters…he was acknowledged to be the Apostle to the Gentiles…and he makes it crystal clear in Romans…Galatians…Ephesians…etc…its solely by the grace of God through FAITH. We come just like Abraham did. We believe God at His Word and that is reckoned unto us as righteousness. Certainly God has prepared works for us to walk in and rewards are based on works…but my WAY to God is only by the blood of God’s chosen Messiah (Christ). It was all handed to me as a gift…all I need to do is accept it.
Here is another quote from Spencer’s book that I would like to talk about:
“Yes, I said, but we are commanded to be supermen. Says the Lord, ‘Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.’ (Matt 5:48). We are gos in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, p.286)
To our LDS readers, I ask you: Are you perfect? Are you obeying this commandment? Do you believe this is Heavenly Father’s will for our lives? I do and I take this verse literally and seriously. Am I perfect and thus fulfilling this command? YES! I am going to tell you why I am so that when you meet Heavenly Father your meeting Him won’t be met with grave disappointment.
What is the command in the verse? Be perfect – not BECOMING perfect as taught in Mormonism. When your boss tells you to “be on time” does that mean when you get around to it or right now? If you tell your kids to “be good” does that mean they can be good sometimes in the future? No. Perfection is not a process as believed in Mormonism. How did Joseph Smith translate that verse:
JST Matt 5:50 – “Ye are therefore commanded to be perfect.”
This also goes along with 3 Nephi 12:48. So three times the same command is given. Did Joseph Smith translate this verse correctly? I’m sure you will say that he did since it’s Joseph Smith. When I say that I am perfect it means that I am complete in Christ by grace. Mormons are not meeting God’s requirement for living with Him: they are not presently perfect. God demands perfection right now! Right this very minute!
How am I perfect? Let’s go to Hebrews 10:14 and see how. Read the verse. Who are the sanctified? See verse 10 of the same chapter. We are (those that have accepted Christ’s perfection as our own [Christians]). Eternity with Heavenly Father is a gift – not a reward. He has perfected us by his offering – not us perfecting ourselves by our good works or doing rituals. (Cont’d)
Part 2
Jesus didn’t come here to show us how to be perfect, but rather to be perfect for us and that’s how I can say that I am perfect. If you are trying to reach Heavenly Father any other way than accepting Jesus’ perfection as your own right now, then you will spend eternity in outer darkness. The answer is Jesus. He was our sacrifice. Look at Hebrews 10:14 again. We receive imputed righteousness through Jesus. No matter how good people think they are, if they are not perfect then they are under God’s curse (Gal 3:10; James 2:10; Rom 6:23)
God in His infinite wisdom knew that we would be born imperfect and that we would all sin. So being perfectly just and perfectly merciful, He made a way for us to be with Him for all eternity. Our sin is remembered no more (verse 17). Look at verse 18. Jesus’ death was the remission. There is no more offering for sin. It is finished (John 19:30). Jesus did it all. No more needs to be done. Nothing more can be done. There is no more offering for sin. Jesus bridged the gap between our imperfections and Heavenly Father’s demand for perfection. That is perfect justice wrapped in perfect mercy surrounded by perfect love.
That is the miracle of forgiveness – not the Spencer Kimball/Mormonism view of the miracle of forgiveness. There is no “miracle” in the Mormon plan or view. What a weight and burden as set forth by the Mormon leaders. That is why Mormons are under great secret stress and anxiety. They are trying to BECOME perfect. They aren’t going to make it in their present state because they are still trying to do “after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23). Can you do all consistently? Do you ever do all?
If you are perfect, then why bother with temple ordinances? Do you have the confidence if you died right now you’d be with Heavenly Father in the celesital kingdom and that you have eternal life? Do you have the assurance that if you were to die that all your sins have been forgiven? If not, then you aren’t perfect.
I remember first reading The Miracle of Forgiveness and telling my wife while reading it that there is no way to be perfect in this life. It was a discouraging book to read. Others I have talked to had felt the same. There was to much to do to become “perfect” and qualify to get to the “celestial kingdom” in this life. When I finally looked outside the church and reading Christian materials, things started to open up and I realized I had been looking in the wrong church for the right answers. I believe in repenting and turning away from sin. I also know we will not be perfect in this life and we will need Jesus to help us over the threshold back to our father and that is done through the cross. Side note: “That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing” It is funny how tithing always comes up. I remember tithing being a huge issue always and how guilty you felt if you did not pay. Today I tithe to the desrving Christian ministries of my choice and no one ever asks if I am paying.
DJB,
I am tired of Mormons thinking that Christians do not believe in obedience. The difference is that for Mormons obedience is a requirement to enter the CK, which means you can be successful at obedience on your own effort. The Christian perspective is that obedience is the result of being Spirit-filled after confessing Christ. We are obedient in response to God’s grace. We understand that we as sinners cannot hold the law; the law reveals our sinfulness. The law does not save, but kills. Christ saves. Again, the LDS perspective is backwards. Your analogy about the bike only shows that you think God’s grace is in response to your efforts; God’s grace precedes us, goes with us, and goes before us. We respond to that grace. Mormon theology has created a theology that kills. Jesus Christ gives life. Confess Him alone, and swear your allegiance to Him alone, because one cannot swear allegiance to JS teachings and be saved. The law we are to obey is not the 10 commandments, but to love God and our neighbors as ourselves, which is the spirit of the 10 commandments.
Susan,
Our actions are evidence of our faith in Jesus Christ–not the means to salvation. Our salvation is based on the merits of Jesus Christ alone; He doesn’t need our help to save us.
To all Mormons,
Repentance is turning away from our sins and does not involve some formula as espoused by Kimball. Note, DJB, Jesus says “go and sin no more.” That’s it. There is no ecclesiastical authority she needs to go to in order to perform some formulated ritual. Christians understand the true meaning of confession, repentance, obedience, grace, and mercy. Your leaders teach you something obviously different than what the Bible teaches. Remember that we respond to God’s grace in our lives, and our actions are evidence of our faith; He doesn’t respond with grace to our obedience. I will continue to be in prayer for all Mormons because that is what God has called me to.
Berean, loved your well thought out comments. I have a place in my computer where I save the comments, that to me, really hit home. Yours were “save worthy.” Thanks.
I have to admit that I am a little more shallow than most on this post. Because the thought that stands out in my memory of reading the Miracle of Forgiveness years ago, is when Kimball berates himself for all of the movies that he has seen and pretty much called it a waste of time. I knew I was out of his league. The book was pretty darn depressing as far as any attainable goal of perfection, yet I stayed in the church for probably another ten years trying.
DoF,
If I understand you correctly, you quote, Be Ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.
If that is what your saying, then it seems 1 Nephi 1:7 shows God is a failure. Rick b
Jeffrey: You asked,”If you have to work so hard and obtain perfection for forgiveness, in WHAT way is that a miracle? When I work hard at work and complete projects and get a bonus, do I say.. “Wow this paycheck is a miracle!”? No. I worked hard for it, I did it, and I deserve it.
Consider the law of the harvest which the Lord used very often to relate the gospel. A man plants seed in his field. He waters the field and picks weeds. In time, he reaps the fruit. Is there not a miracle in that? Who provided the sunlight? Who created the miracle within that seed? But without the sweat and effort of the farmer, there would be no harvest.
“But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.” Acts 26:20
“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance.” Matt 3:8
“except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Luke 13:3
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
To all non-LDS here: If my efforts to repent and obey God are wrong and evil, than what role does repentence play? What is repentence? Is it a one time thing that happens just before a person accepts Christ?
Many here have said that the LDS attempt to repent and obey is pious and self-righteous. These same people outrightly state that we are going to hell. Who is pious and self-righteous?
DJB…I don’t believe any of us are saying that repentance is not important…but remember the parable of the Prodigal Son (or in this case The Grace-filled Father) in Luke 15:11-32…the wayward boy doesn’t even get to give his well-prepared groveling speech out because his father is too busy running to welcome him home and put a robe on him. It just isn’t that hard my friend…you realize how far from home you have strayed and you simply turn your heart back toward Him and allow His grace to do for you what you just plain CANNOT do for yourself.
Naturalverities,
The servant who incurred the wrath of the master did so because he did not show a similar compassion for a fellow-servant who owed far less than he did, not because he misunderstood grace. He also was not trying to get enough money to pay back the master – he knew the debt was forgiven outright as we can see here (I have bolded it) in Matt 18:32-33 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Interesting thing about this parable – look at the order of events. The master forgave the servant with a huge debt. This servant called in a small debt owing to him by another servant and demanded payment right then and there. The master when he found out then punished the servant and demanded full payment for the forgiven debt. So according to this order of events in a parable by Jesus, we can be forgiven fully of our sins, BUT if we do not forgive others we can be found unworthy and lose this forgiveness. Hmmm…
Yes, the prodigal son was again received as a son, but what were the ‘conditions’ of this acceptance? Let’s look at what the father said to the son who stayed home – Luke 15:31-32 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. So the prodigal son has LOST his inheritance because all that the father has now belongs to the one who stayed home. So again, it seem that with the order of events, once we have accepted the Father, if we stray (ie do the wrong thing) we can lose all that He has given us, and once we repent and come back we “start from scratch” with our inheritance/reward while those who never strayed gain more.
Ed –
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and logical response to my post. However, you assume incorrectly that I read anything about this scripture in Mormon Doctrine and I wish you wouldn’t call my exegesis “poor.” That hurt my feelings. (yes, even Mormons have feelings)
When Christ tells us in John 6:40 that it is the will of the Father that “every which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life” I believe the key words here are “believeth on him.” When we believe in Christ, what does that mean? To me, it believes we know He is the way, the truth, and the life. We are drawn to him. We follow him and his example. You speak of the scripture that speaks of those who do good “works” in the name of Christ who are then condemned. I believe that if we do works to aggrandize ourselves and not serve the Lord, indeed we ARE condemned. As it says in 1 Corinthians 13:2, we can do many great things and have many great gifts and don’t have charity, the pure love of Christ, it means NOTHING. You are absolutely right that a person of any religion who is just trying to work his way to Heaven and impress God with his good works (hardly possible) is misguided. I believe that the Lord wants our HEART. He wants what’s on the inside, not ONLY what’s on the outside. But he wants BOTH.
And, if our hearts are right before the Lord, we will believe in Him AND do good works for the right reasons. I do not have room to quote the entire scripture here, but please refer to Matthew 25:33-46. This is the parable of the goats and the sheep. The sheep are people who follow the Savior for He is their shepherd. Notice that in this scripture Jesus talks a lot about doing and lack of doing. But here, the works are done with charity, therefore pleasing to him.
Priding ourselves on their own works was really what Christ condemned in the Phrisees and Saduccees. For example in Luke 11:49. Christ is interested in the inner man.
Jeffrey:
You and others keep quoting to me scriptures on grace. You are not catching onto the fact that Mormons believe in salvation by grace. Yes, we believe you must be baptized. Yes, we believe you must repent of your sins. But, those acts in and of themselves are not going to save you unless you have faith in Christ. FAITH IN CHRIST LEADS TO REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM. The FIRST principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2nd repentance, 3rd baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, 4th laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. (see article of faith #2 and notice the FIRST principle is faith)
The problem is you are trying to stop at FAITH and say it is sufficient, but the simple ACT of faith does NOT ALLOW you to stop there.
Faith in Christ means you DO something because you believe in Him. (hence the scripture in James “I will shew thee my faith by my works.”)
Here’s a scripture from the Book of Mormon on grace:
“Wherefore how great to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh…”
Ralph…I think you missed the beginning…even though it was unprecedented in those days the father gave the younger son his share of the inheritance upfront…he had already wasted it on wine, women, and song at that point…Blessings!
I haven’t read all the comments from yesterday and today because I’m way too freaking frustrated, but I have to say to all the Mormons and GRCluff especially –CHRISTIANS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT WE CAN JUST SIN ALL WE WANT BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, DESPITE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD! I am taking major offense to these statements and implications that we feel there are no consequences to our sin! This is why Mormons do not think Biblical Christianity is enough -you do NOT understand our view of grace. It is NOT a license to sin! The ONLY thing one needs to do to be saved (i.e. reach Heaven) is believe that the Jesus in the Bible died on the cross to pay for our sins, realize we are terrible sinners and there’s nothing we can do to atone for it, and accept Him into your heart. After that, it gets a little harder. You have a choice whether you want to continue to walk with Christ or just hang out. Those of us on this blog are trying to walk with Christ and when you’re doing that you know it is not ok to go out and sin sin sin. We are trying to live like Christ which includes keeping commandments, but we know that we will not be cast out of heaven for failing. We confess our weaknesses to God and are again forgiven, but our “saved status” doesn’t change. If people say they are Christian but feel they can sin without consequence then yes, they are paying lip service and are not ‘true’ Christians because they do not have God in their hearts.
As for “faith without works is dead” -when you passionately love God it spills over and manifests itself in works, whether in ministry or community service or a million other ways. If one does not serve their fellow man and do God’s will, their faith will die because it will grow stagnant. To me, that is what is meant by “faith w/o works is dead.