If You Only Had a Few Minutes

If you were visited at home by Mormon missionaries and only had a few minutes, what seed would you plant?

I would first ask them to bear their testimony, and then thank them, and then say, “Would you mind if I shared a testimony?” They always say yes.

If you don’t have time for that you can just skip to this part:

“Can I see your quad for a moment? Thanks.” Open to Isaiah 43:10, put your finger under it. “The testimony I have to share isn’t my own. It is God’s testimony. God bears his testimony in Isaiah 43:10 that, ‘Before me no God was formed, nor shall there be any after me.’ If we consider the testimony of man, how much more should we consider the testimony of God?”

Notice how I speak of scripture to them strictly in terms of “God’s testimony” — not as “scripture” or “God’s word” or “the Bible”. I am trying to drive home the directness of the inspiration of scripture by a fresh use of terms.

Isaiah 43:10 addresses the very heart of the traditional Mormon understanding of the Lorenzo Snow couplet, “As man is God once was, as God is man may be.”

Grace and peace!


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159 Responses to If You Only Had a Few Minutes

  1. jackg says:


    Thank you for your contribution to this thread and to the understanding of early church history. You have put a lot of work and effort into your posts, and you have been able to communicate your thoughts effectively. Keep on pressing on, Falcon. God has definitely called you to this work!

    Peace and Grace!

  2. jeffrey b says:

    Worship the Mormon God? No thanks.. I have issues following someone who wasn’t perfect in every way eternally.. I’m not Mormon, obviously, but to think that if I was, that I would be giving worship to some dude that may have been a rapist? An abuser (drugs, alcohol, OR women)? To worship someone who was just another dude off the street?

    I can respect people that turn their life around from those things, and praise be to God for that… but I can NEVER and will NEVER worship someone who was imperfect..

  3. jeffrey b says:


    I read up a bit and saw your comments and just felt lead to respond.. You asked how it is to make you feel that you can never merit God’s favor?

    Well for me, personally, it takes a lot of pressure off of me and that always feels good to be at peace because someone else (Him) is not only carrying the weight of your sin and shortcomings, but also your spirit. It’s not that we don’t have his favor, so I hope that you realize that it is available to you. This is what Grace is, “unmerited, undeserved favor”.

    That is how perfect His love is. Even though compared to him we are very troublesome children who have impure thoughts and commit impure actions, he loves us no matter what.

    The Christian life isn’t easy. You will be stepped on, and your generosity taken advantage of. If you need an example, Jesus is the perfect one. But no matter what happens to you in this life, it will be only a blip compared to the eternity we live in the glory of our Lord.

    Bless you Enki.

  4. falcon says:

    I had this really odd thought while I was out pounding the road today on my super carbon fiber frame bike. Here it is: Our Mormon friends are really hot on the idea of progressive revelation. It has to do with the little Mormon slogans “there’s so much we don’t know” and “God is always revealing more and new knowledge to us” (Mormons of course). Well would they be willing to grant that same ahhhhh “grace” to those of us who are orthodox, Biblical Christians. What do I mean. Well, for me it’s really interesting and fascinating to delve into the process of the Church defining it’s fundamental doctrines during the first 400 years of it’s existence. From the beginning, the Church was monotheistic in its view of the nature of God. However, during this time span, they had to deal with heretics. One article I was reading talked about how the Church owed a lot to the heretics because they (heretics) forced the Church to be very focused and definitive. One interesting thing I read in a book dealing with early church doctrines, outlined how the specific doctrine of the nature of God was dealt with in the second century (I believe). What I liked was the author saying something like, “OK they had the basic concepts (meaning the apologists) but they didn’t have the sophisticated theological vocabulary with which to express it.” I thought that was cool.
    Oh and by the way, for our Mormon friends who have trouble with the various councils that met to deal with heresy and the fundamental doctrinal issues of the Church, just think of it as “General Conference”. May be that will help!

  5. falcon says:

    It’s difficult to know what we can say in a few minuets that will flip the switch for a Mormon that will put them on the road to rejecting the false claims of Mormonism and coming to the One, true and living God. In the case of Lyndon Lamborn, a coworker who had just read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by John Krakauer, said something like, “There were some interesting things in there about the history of your religion.” Lyndon decided to look into it and that led him out of Mormonism. He’s just written a book about his journey out of Mormonism. Lyndon’s case drew a lot of attention because his bishop was going to read Lyndon’s excommunication decree from the pulpit one Sunday. The bishop thought better of it after legal council advised that that probably wasn’t a good idea. Despite his obvious intelligence, Lyndon could probably be termed a “Naive Believer” in Mormonism. A smart pleasant guy, who came from a long line of Mormons, he just bought the program without really investigating its history. So sometimes we may not have to say much to get a Mormon thinking, not only about the history of Mormonism but also its doctrines, practices and culture. Lyndon talks about his journey in a presentation that can be found on YouTube.

  6. shematwater says:


    I have no doubt the author knew exactly what he was writing, and the verious meanings it had. However, I do not think that all those that he was writing to had this understanding.

    If you read the prophecies in Daniel and then look at history you could easily see two fulfillments of the Abomination of Desolation. One under the Greek captivity, when worshiping according to Jewish religion was made illegal, and again under the Romans when the Temple was destroyed. However, in reading this prophecy it also becomes apparent that the abomination of Desolation will come a third time just before the second coming. Now, did Daniel know this. Probably. Did all the Jews know this. Probably not. We know it because we can look back and see these fulfillments, but those at the time this was given most likely did not understand this.


    What is wrong with the statement I made? It is a true statement. If the Bible had only one, perfectly clear interpretation then there would be only one church, and one doctrine. Since there are many sects that claim to be biblical, and most teach verying doctrine, it seems obvious that the Bible is not perfectly clear in its meaning.


    The pharisees guarded the words of the prophets just as much as the early church, and yet when Christ came he rejected their traditions and this close guard they kept. This is shown in Mark 7 and Matthew 15. By these examples we can see that trusting the traditions of men, especially after a few hundred years, is not a very good idea. Thus, just as Christ restored the truth to the jews, doing away with these traditions, Joseph Smith, being appointed by Christ, restored the truth in our day, doing away with the christian traditions of men.

  7. jackg says:


    For some reason, you think that you do not listen to words and traditions of men. You believe in a religion that is built on a man’s erroneous philosophy, and even sing “Shall the Youth of Zion Falter,” which is all about traditions. Your argument does not hold water. The thing that you fail to understand is that God has chosen to work through a broken and fallen humanity. He works through us despite our propensity to mess things up. There is one true Church, and it is made up of every believer, and with every believer comes points of emphases, points of confusion, and points for discussion; however, every true believer believes that they are justified by faith by the grace of God, and that the blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to save us from our sinful state and from our sins. You reference to the Pharisees has nothing to do with what Falcon has so efficiently taught us regarding the history of the Church. For your argument to hold water, you would have to suggest that the Holy Spirit, as promised by Jesus, was not able to sustain Himself on this earth. If you suggest that, then you must believe that a second Pentecost occurred in 1820, and that JS was the only one to experience that in the grove of trees. There is no place in the Bible that even remotely suggests a second Pentecost, but the Pentecost we read about in Acts was promised by Jesus Himself. Defender failed to respond to this line of inquiry; I wonder if you will also ignore this challenge to your fellacious arguments. And, if you want to be held to your own measuring stick, then I must remind you that it has been nearly two centuries since the traditions of JS were introduced to the world. It sounds like it’s time for you to quit trusting in them; after all, you’re the one who says it’s not a very good idea to continue trusting in such traditions. Or, you can wait another century, but that would be too late. Praying for you, Shem.

    Peace and Grace!

  8. falcon says:

    Nice try Shem, but you give a very poor analogy. The Pharisees did “XYZ” so you conclude “ABC” and apply it to the early Church. Because the Pharisees did something it naturally follows that the early Church did something equally egregous? Back to logic and reasoning 101 for you.
    I’d suggest you spend some time finding out exactly what “tradition” meant in the early Church.
    Here’s an idea of what “tradition” did mean to the early Church. Tertullian said that what was believed and preached in the churches was absolutely authoritative. These beliefs and preaching were absolutely authoritative because it was the selfsame revelation which they had received from the apostles. The apostles recived the revelation from Christ. Christ received the revelation from God. By the time the third century rolled around, the Church looked to the scriptures, the traditions and the liturgy as depositiories of the Church’s living doctrinal inheritance. The liturgy as a function of the daily life of the Church was regarded as emanating from the apostles and reflected their testimony. The liturgy was/is based on the doctrines of the Church. This would include such things as baptism and the eucharistic rites.
    See, here’s the problem. Mormons tend to accept what their told. They rarely ask the second and third questions and really get a grasp of early Church history and practice. It’s a systemic problem in Mormonism. That coupled with the conditioning Mormons receive directing them to intellectually run away from anything that makes them uncomfortable keeps them dumb but happy and unfortuately lost.
    The Church did her job safe guarding the teachings of the apostles. The Holy Spirit protected the revelation.

  9. If I had only a few minutes…?

    I would love to talk about the greatness of God’s grace. I would do my best to talk about the inexpressible depths of the love that Jesus demonstrated by his life, death and resurrection.

    A second-best would be to discuss and debate scripture with someone who had a working knowledge of it, and who was not afraid of it.

    But what would happen, and this did actually happen a few months ago, is that we’d be wrangling over Joseph Smith.

  10. P.S.


    Many thanks for the Church history. I’m beginning to remember how much I’ve forgot (or didn’t know in the first place)

  11. falcon says:

    My friend Berean, who occasionally posts here, actually did have a few minutes within the past week to talk with some Mormon missionaries. I’ll see if he’d be willing to share his experience. The highlights are that he was in the Phillipines and came across a couple of female followers of Joseph Smith. He talked to them for about 90 minutes. He said the one major difference that he encountered with these two missionaries was that unlike missionaries he encounters in the U.S., these were actually willing to be unfront about the plurality of gods and that their hope was to enter this rank. Berean tends to stick with the larger issues in dealing with Mormonism however he did mention Joseph Smith’s “technique” of putting his magic rock in his hat in order to interpret the gold plates (which we all know weren’t even present while he was divinating). The girls had never heard of that. Always prepared, Berean showed them the actual excerpts from a past Ensign magazine to prove it. Berean told me that it’s his impression that the Mormons are hitting the third world countries pretty hard because things have dried-up for them here in the states. With the internet it’s fairly easy for people to get the facts regarding Mormonism and to see it for what it is. People in third world countries don’t have access to that type of information. Many are nominal Catholics who basically pray the rosary and go to confession. That’s about the extent of their religion. I was telling Berean, that I recently read something about the fact that the poor people in these countries are more of a financial drain on the SLC Mormon sect than a benefit. In Mormonism, it seems to me, that the tithe is right up there with believing Joseph Smith was a prophet. In fact I was reading a testimony from a person who had been disfellowshiped and the bishop was going through all the things the person couldn’t do until full fleged restoration took place. The person asked, “Should I still pay my tithe?” YUP!

  12. falcon says:

    Thank you Martin,
    I’ll tell you what got me mildly obsessed with the topic of early Church history and doctrine. We’ve got the Mormons to thank for that. I knew their claim about the “lost Christian Gospel” was total self-serving nonsense, but I thought I’d better arm myself with the facts. So I’ve got a box full of Christian History magazines here and I started looking through the back issues (issues tend to deal with single subjects at a time) and finding anything and everything dealing with the early Church. The articles in the issues are excellent and they always recommend books for further study on a particular topic.
    I’m curious by nature and like to do research and I really can’t stand intellectual laziness, so I’ve immersed myself in the topic. The book I’m reading now is (I’m not ashamed to say) requiring me to go back and reread several times just to get the full picture.
    I’m unbelievably impressed with the Church fathers and their fastidious nature and their tenacity to maintain the purity of the Gospel. These guys also had big brains and thought big thoughts. That’s why I sometimes lose patience with our Mormon posters when they start repeating the Mormon slogans that they’ve been taught. I know Mormonism does this as a form of indoctrination but you’d think at some point people would want something of substance. The problem is, once the Mormon folks start figuring out the program, they’re out the door.

  13. Berean says:

    Part 1

    Falcon asked me to share one of my recent experiences with Mormon missionaries. As he mentioned in his post, this encounter took place in the Philippines. I have just returned home from there just a few days ago. I go to the Philippines every two to three years as we visit my wife’s family there. The Philippines is a very interesting place in many ways and the spiritual climate of the country is now more ripe than ever and the people are easily deceived. The country is engulfed in poverty and is primarily Roman Catholic (85%). You wouldn’t know it by looking at the abstract religions that are growing over there. The Mormons have their work cut out over there.

    The country is full of traditional cult movemements (Jehovah’s Witnesses) but the main players are the Filipino cult movements that mimic the American cults. One example is the large Filipino cult called Iglesia Ni Cristo. They have similar beliefs of the JW’s but their founding prophet is a Filipino. They are very legalistic and their church/temples are everywhere over there. They have their own TV stations too. There are other small movements that are cultic in nature all over the place. The country is full of false christ’s, prophets and apostles. An example of this is the large cult that has been growing that I have been tracking everytime I go over there and is called “Jesus Christ: Name Above Every Name”. That sounds pretty harmless except this “jesus christ” is a Filipino man called Apollo C. Quiboloy who claims to be the “appointed son of god” who has returned and created the new Jerusalem and the kingdom of God on earth in Davao City, Philippines. Many Filipino’s follow him and they pray in his name. Again, the Mormons have their work cut out for them there just trying to compete with the other false religions/cults of which it is a part of.

    The Mormon Church is alive and well in the Philippines and their wards scatter the landscape of the country even in the poorest of areas.

  14. Berean says:

    Part 2

    The town where I go (Dagupan) has three wards. There are local missionaries and then there are missionaries from the States over there to blend in with them. They live in the communities with the people in apartments in pairs just like they do here. The Mormons are active and visible and everyone knows who they are because of their clothing and traditional name tags that they wear on their clothes just like here. Even regular church members wear the tags on their clothes and you see entire families wearing them while they are out shopping and eating.

    The Christian churches over there ignore them and “bury their head in the sand” when it comes to addressing the Mormons or confronting their heretical beliefs just like the majority of the churches here in America. Most of the locals that I know avoid the Mormons and they are quick to tell me that when they come around they all scramble because the word has gotten out that if they offer up traditional Filipino courtesy to them, then the Mormons will come back to that house several times a day everyday from that point and won’t leave the people alone.

    In the provinces outside of Manila I don’t know what the Mormon Church is hoping to gain financially. Most of the converts slip away back to what they were once the missionaries leave. The people are dirt poor and it’s all they can do just to buy rice for their family to eat. The vast majority won’t and can’t pay required tithes and could never afford to go to the Manila temple. Most would never be worthy because of the culture especially among males (smoking, drinking alcohol and coffee). Nevertheless, the proselytizing continues.

    Three years ago I spoke at a Baptist church and tried to educate and alert them on Mormonism. This time I spoke at a non-denomination church. Most seem uninterested and so the Mormon Church goes unchecked in the Philippines because the people can’t get information and are culturally vulnerable for being deceived.

  15. Berean says:

    Part 3 of 6

    I always look forward to witnessing opportunities when I go there not only with Mormons but in also defusing and deconstructing spiritually the deception they have tried to weave amongst the locals when I get the chance. As it is here, the Mormon missionaries aren’t upfront with the locals about what they really believe but it’s even more so over there because it’s easy to take advantage of the average Filipino. Most are uneducated and you could tell them almost anything and they would believe it especially if it comes from an American. They idolize America, our people and culture and desperately want to be like us (which a lot of it is not good from my last observation).

    Right before I left to go home the Lord provided an opportunity for me to share with two Mormon missionaries who were females from Utah (the towns of Sandy and Willard). One was just finishing up her mission and the newby had been there only a short time as usual. The circumstances in how all this meeting happened was no accident and is a story in itself. I will skip that part.

    I was way out in the province in a rural area and my wife and I with several other family members were walking along the trail up to the road. A Filipino man brought them down the trail to me and at first I didn’t know who I was talking to until I finally got to a lighted area and saw the badges on their shirts.

    I just so happened to be wearing my “After all you can do?” t-shirt with “Gotforviness.com” on the back of the shirt that I had won at the raffel at last year’s Compassionate Boldness Conference. We talked and got through the formalities. They commented on my shirt and stated that I obviously knew a lot about the LDS faith from our already ongoing conversation. They quickly asked me if I had prayed about the BoM and I told them I had not even though I had read it more times than the Bible and that I never would and I had 6 reasons why I would not.

  16. Berean says:

    Part 4 of 6

    They wanted to know why and I invited them to go with me back to my in-laws home where we could sit down outside and talk about these matters. I lead them down the trail and when we got there everybody scrambled inside except my father-in-law who sat down and observed our meeting. They wanted to open up in prayer and invite “the spirit”. I told them that I would not pray with them and gave them my reasons. They asked me to pray and I was happy to do so by addressing “Lord Jesus Christ” and then prayed evangelistically. I told them that I just so happen to have my Scriptures in my bag and then I proceeded to open them there on the picnic table.

    Right “out the chute” they told me that Jesus WAS NOT God and that one day they were going to be gods. This kind of shocked me because Mormon missionaries here in American have never said this to me. I was an American and knowledgeable of their beliefs so I was astonished at their candor. I engaged them in those statements and read to them numerous statements from Joseph Smith and other LDS references that I had typed and pasted on the covers of my Scriptures throughout. I stuck with the central themes that I like to stay with and those are the statements by Joseph Smith and what he said are the most important.

    I asked them to demonstrate to me from the Bible or the BoM the first principle of the gospel that their god is an exalted man. They could not. I allowed them to play Bible “hopscotch” as they continually reached for my LDS Authorized scriptures and wanted to look at them. We went to all the standard LDS “hopscotch” texts and as soon as we got there and I answered them they wanted to run somewhere else. Once this game was over with I brought them back to the reality of who their god is compared to the description of how God is described in the Bible.

    They were confronted with their polytheistic beliefs and also their cutlic view of denying the deity of Christ and the nature of God.

  17. Berean says:

    Part 5 of 6

    They tried to tell me that there had been no changes to the BoM since the 1830 which almost made me laugh. I told them that there had been thousands but would be happy to show them many of the major ones. We started at the opening page and then went to 1 Nephi 13 and finally ended up in one of my favorite verses in Mosiah 21:28 where the name of the king in the 1830 version is Benjamin, but in the 1981 version it’s Mosiah. This alarmed them and the trainer told the rookie to write it all down and I encouraged them look it all up.

    They wanted to know why I would not pray about the BoM and I was only able to get to two of the reasons out of six before they packed it up. First, the Bible nowhere says we are supposed to pray about a book to see if it’s true. I had them read James 1 in context and then gave them several other scriptures to support what I was saying. I also asked them some thought provoking questions to realize the fallacy and danger of this approach. Second, I told them I could not pray about the BoM after I learned how it was translated. They had no clue what I was talking about and I read to them the statements by Emma Smith, David Whitmer and Mormon Apostle Russell Nelson the July 1993 Ensign which states Joseph used a magic rock he placed in a hat. This greatly troubled the new missionary and she didn’t say much throughout this interchange.

    She did finally interrupt and asked me to once again start from the beginning and ask heavenly father to reveal the truth to me since I was very confused and had questions (even though she was the one with tears in her eyes from stress in my opinion). I told her that we need to set the record straight that I was not confused. I already had truth and I demonstrated that from the Scriptures.

    I shared with them my testimony and that seemed to have a powerful impact on them as their eyes became wet. I placed in their hands the Joseph Smith “million dollar” witnessing tract.

  18. Berean says:

    Part 6

    They immediately started reading it and then packed it up to leave. I encouraged them to look into the things we talked about. We thanked each other for the conversation and before I knew it they had run off in the darkness and had disappeared.

    The next day the new American girl was with a Filipino LDS missionary back in the area. It was brought to my attention and I watched them as they just wandered around standing out in a field with seemingly no plan. They eventually got back on the road and encountered an elderly man sitting on the road. I went out there to speak with them and also to stop their proselytizing. We were all friendly and this young American girl was really suffering in the conditions out there. I felt sorry for her. Missionary work in the province is physically uncomfortable. They didn’t want to talk with me. I had given them my contact information here in America the night prior. They left and I spoke with the old man. I asked him if he was Roman Catholic and then went through the fundamentals of the faith that both Catholics and Protestants agree on (namely the belief that there is only God; Jesus Christ is God, etc.). He said he did and I told him that the Mormons believe there are millions of gods out there and that they think they are going to become a god some day themseleves. He replied to me in broken English, “That is very different”. I replied, “Exactly”. He got on his bike and rode away.

    We must always be ready and prepared to give an answer for our faith with love and respect (1 Peter 3:15) no matter where we are – even if it’s on the other side of the earth. The Mormons are there actively proselytizing because the word is not out on their heresy like it is here in America. We have the information here so we have no excuse. Those people over there do not and we need to pray and do something about it.

    [email protected]

  19. gknielsen says:

    Please note, that LDS are Monotheists in that we worship only one God, who is the Father. We do it all through Jesus Christ, just as Jesus taught in the Bible.
    I fully affirm the oneness of God, and everything we teach is consistent with this. The GodHead has perfect unity of purpose, will and mind. The Bible also teaches that Jesus Christ is distinctly individual from the Father, yet still God. And the Holy Ghost is also a distinct Individual and can be called God.
    Comment on John1:1-2 “Word was with God” and “Word was God.” These are not exclusive comments, but rather inclusive. They were together, they are one in purpose.
    Back to John 1:1-2 the Greek text must be read and interpreted here. The first and third occurrence of the word “God” in these verses comes from Greek Ho Theos, meaning THE God, while the second occurrence is simply Theos, meaning God. It’s quite possible then that the English translation could read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God.” It’s quite clear that the Word and The God are not the same Being. Christ is divine and a God, but was WITH another divine being, THE God.
    They are one in purpose. Read John 17 where the followers of Christ are one. John 17:11,21-24 “11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are… 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, a

  20. Berean,

    Thanks for your story.


    Your story sounds quite similar to mine. I encountered Mormonism not long after reading “The Da Vinci Code”, and I embarked upon what could roughly be described as an audit of my faith.

    Maybe, like me, you wanted to know if your faith was “pidooma”. I only recently came across this word, and if you want to know what it means, I’ve posted an explanation here..

  21. falcon says:

    Thank you very much for sharing your experience with the Mormon missionaries. I think, for some of us, we might be a little intimidated by your comprehensive knowledge of Mormonism and your skills at presenting the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them. For myself and others, who might feel that way, we have to realize that this wasn’t your first rodeo. You’ve accumulated your knowledge and skills over years of study. I would say to all of us, share what you know. Don’t feel that you have to have all knowledge to be able to share Christ. I’m reminded of the words of St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians. He talks about having spiritual gifts and knowledge but says if you don’t have love you’re just a clanging bell. We get confused with love in our culture. We get it all mixed-up with emotions. Love can be a “kind” regard for people wanting them to spend eternity with the One, everlasting God Who has no beginning and no end.

  22. gknielsen says:

    LDS are Monotheists in that we worship only one God, who is the Father. We do it all through Jesus Christ, just as Jesus taught in the Bible.
    I fully affirm the oneness of God, and everything we teach is consistent with this. The GodHead has perfect unity of purpose, will and mind. The Bible also teaches that Jesus Christ is distinctly individual from the Father, yet still God. And the Holy Ghost is also a distinct Individual and can be called God.
    Comment on John1:1-2 “Word was with God” and “Word was God.” These are not exclusive comments, but rather inclusive. They were together, they are one in purpose.
    Back to John 1:1-2 the Greek text must be read and interpreted here. The first and third occurrence of the word “God” in these verses comes from Greek Ho Theos, meaning THE God, while the second occurrence is simply Theos, meaning God. It’s quite possible then that the English translation could read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God.” It’s quite clear that the Word and The God are not the same Being. Christ is divine and a God, but was WITH another divine being, THE God.

  23. gknielsen says:

    They are one in purpose. Read John 17 where the followers of Christ are one. John 17:11,21-24 “11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are… 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” (KJV)
    Christ said the Father is greater than Him (John 14:28), and spoke of the Father as His God and our God (John 20:17). Peter likewise speaks of the Father as “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:1), and multiple passages refer to Christ being at the right hand of the Father.

  24. gknielsen says:

    Some commonalities between us all: We believe in the Oneness of the Father and the Son. They are one. We believe in one God (The Father) and one Lord (Jesus). Ephesians 4:5-6. We believe in the one and only God whom we worship. And we all believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Orthodox Christianity resolves the potential Polytheisms issue through its belief in the Trinity. Which was devised democratically from nearly 400 intellectuals debating the topic. Let’s just defer to the Bible. Mormons, worship only God the Father (through Christ) as Monotheists. The Bible teaches us of the role of Christ. John 5:22-23 (King James Version)
    “22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.”
    All of the other scriptures shared by others, including Isaiah and Deuteronomy are correct and completely consistent with this view and all of the scriptures at the top of the page.
    The same person, Moses, who Wrote Deut 6, wrote in Genesis 1:29 “And God said, let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.” (KJV) all of these are noticeably plurality, Father and Son together working as ONE.).
    None of this contradicts my statements or all scriptures posted above. A God of Unity is absolutely taught in the Bible, but not that they are the exact same being. The quantity of scriptures above when read in their totality give this same understanding. I think one should be careful in taking one or two scriptures and disregard the rest.

  25. gknielsen says:

    An early Christian Father from aprox 330 A.D. Gregory Nazianzen (you should look him up on Wikipedia)
    “When we look at the Godhead, or the First Cause, or the Monarchia, that which we conceive is One; but when we look at the Persons in Whom the Godhead dwells, and at Those Who timelessly and with equal glory have their Being from the First Cause – there are Three Whom we worship”. (On the Holy Spirit, 5.14, in NPNF, 7:322, as cited by Waltz, p. 172)
    “I will baptize you and make you a disciple in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; and These Three have One common name, the Godhead.” (Ibid., 40.45, in NPNF, 7:376.)
    “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3) (KJV)

  26. jackg says:


    I understand that you are arguing for that which you believe to be true. I know where you’re coming from because I have been there. I have used the same reasoning and argument when I was a Mormon. I used to think that I made sense and wonder how so-called Christians could not see the light. I used to take scripture out of context, eisegete the text, and forget the totality of the biblical message in my attempts to argue JS doctrine. God helped me to see that the foundation for my arguments was not the biblical text, even though I used them, but the teachings of JS. Unfortunately for the millions of Mormons, JS was a false prophet. He was false, and his message is not in harmony with the biblical writers. It is a different gospel. And, the difference begins with the idea that God is a resurrected human being. This then leads to all sorts of heretical teachings in order for this original premise to be perceived as true, beginning with the lie that the Bible is not authoritative unless it matches with JS teachings, and this is based on a conspiracy theory. God’s Word is measured against the words of a man, instead of the other way around. Thus began the backwardness of Mormon theology. The truth of the Holy Trinity is beyond our reasoning abilities. C.S. Lewis does a great job to explain it in “Mere Christianity,” which I recommend that you read, sometime. But, as with other faithul followers of Christ, he is a mere mortal trying to express the essence of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with the limitations of reasoning and language. To conclude, I have always wondered how Mormons qualify the crazy teachings of JS with “we’ll learn more about it when we get there,” but not to the mystery of the Trinity and other biblical concepts. It seems that Mormons want to be all knowing on the one hand and blissfully ignorant on the other, but in a backward sort of way.

    Peace and Grace!

  27. falcon says:


    NO, NO, NO, AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I’m sorry but I didn’t even make it past your first sentence. It’s the old “we only worship one god so we are monotheists” Mormon line. NOOOOOOOOOOOO! We don’t play that game here. There is, in the universe, One God! I don’t care how many you claim you worship. Any time you recognize the existence of more than one God, you are not a monotheist. This is why Mormons get the reputation for being dishonest and for playing word games.
    Polytheism is the belief in the existence of more than one God. It is not essential to worship more than one god to be a polytheist-it is merely necessary to believe in their existence. Poly means many, theos means god. Polythieism fails to ask these questions: “Where did the god I am worshipping come from? How was he created? If he is not the First Cause, who is? Polytheists, by failing to ask these questions, end up serving demi-gods. Polytheism is paganism. Christians teach that God has, throughout the ages, revealed Himself as the One True and Living God.
    Now do you agree with the statement, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become”? Do you really believe you will be a god? The answer for Mormons is “yes”.
    Here’s what the Bible says about what you believe:
    “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior” (Is. 43:10-11)
    Mormons are polytheists. Just own it.
    Maybe when I settle down I’ll read the rest of your posts. But for now, please don’t give us any of those Mormon monotheistic head fakes.
    (attribution to Jim Spencer; “Have You Witnessed to a Mormon Lately” pp. 43-44)

  28. gknielsen says:

    Let me show you your error in the Isaiah Quote and the others you continually use:
    Can a Man See God?
    John 1:18 “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    Now, YOUR logic would say… “YEP, IMPOSSIBLE. NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD!” End of story and argument for you. That is exactly what you are doing with the other scriptures.

    Mormons take the ENTIRE BIBLE and ALL of it’s teachings. Not just one verse into consideration.
    Read on:

    John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father, SAVE he which is OF God, HE HATH SEEN the Father.” (3 John 11 for clarification)

    3 John 11 “Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is OF God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.”

    Mathew 5:8 Jesus says: “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”

    Luke 1:37 “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”

    Genesis 32:30 “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my lifie is preserved.” Jacob saw God.

    Genesis 35:9 “And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.”

    Exodus 24:9-10 “Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. “ Moses, Nadab, Abihu, and Seventy other elders saw God.

    Exodus 24:11 “And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.” Other Nobles saw God.

    Exodus 33:11 “And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.”

  29. falcon says:

    OH Brother,
    Where do I start? I don’t know if I have the energy for this so maybe some of the other Christian posters can help out. First of all, I have absoulutely no idea where you are going. You say you are going to show me the error in the Isaiah quote and then you go off on a tangent that I can’t follow. What would you like to discuss? Pick one thing and let’s stay with it. You just did a typical Mormon technique of dump a bunch of Bible verses and run; and there’s no continuity of thought here. So what would you like to talk about? Here are some options based on what you’ve written:

    1. Mormon’s are monotheists.
    2. The Mormon’s view of the scriptures.
    3. The concept of “seeing God”.
    4. The process of exegesis, sound Biblical interpretation and the orthodox Christian view of the Bible.
    Here’s the rule. You stay with one topic. FOCUS! Now pick one and I would be more than happy to take it all the way through to the end. But I’m not going to waste my time swatting Mormon flies and running down empty Mormon rabbit trails. I’ve been at this too long and can recognize the characteristic Mormon approach to argumentation and debate. The whole idea is to get Christians to waste their time and energy on empty pursuits. I’m not messing with you unless you get serious. So get it together or go back to one of the Mormon blogs where you folks can talk to each other.

  30. shematwater says:


    My logic states that reliance on the scriptures has, and will lead to error and corruption. However, when we rely on the current word of a living prophet, then we have the support necessary to keep us on the strait path.

    When you speak of me following the traditions of men you leave out an important point. I do not rely on these traditions (and nor do I think they are of men). I rely on the words of a living prophet. I look to the scriptures, yes. But what I do not understand I do not try and make fit my current beliefs. Instead I look to the prophet to teach me the true meaning in the words. That is the difference.
    The pharisees relied on traditions that started after the prophets were dead. The men that have been quoted lived after the apostles were dead. These people were not looking to a prophet. They were not even looking for a prophet. They looked only to the scriptures, and relied on their understanding of what was said.

  31. jackg says:


    There is no error with regard to the Isaiah 43:10 passage, and we can play tennis all day long with biblical quotes out of context to prove a point. But, I see you haven’t addressed any of the questions I raised, which is what I expected. Now, I am going to do what Mormons love to do, and that is bear my testimony: God humbled me to the point that I fell to my knees and admitted to Him that I didn’t know if JS was a prophet, or if the Church was true, or if the BOM was true. All those years of proudly saying, “I know the church is true…” and I had to admit that I didn’t really know it and, that I didn’t really know anything. I got up from my knees and opened the Bible. I didn’t flip through pages; I didn’t search for any particular passage; I just opened and read the first passage my eyes fell upon. Yes, it was Isaiah 43:10. Illumination! Revelation! Praise be to God that He opened the Bible for me to this exact passage, and from that moment on I have known that the Mormon idea of god having a god, and of man becoming a god, was a lie. Think about it, you believe in a god who has a beginning. Why do you believe this? Because you lean on the foundation of JS and not the Bible. Hey, it’s your prerogative to believe in lies, but when you sychretize the true gospel of Jesus Christ, I must speak against it. You are peddling a message that is unbiblical, no matter how hard you try to eisegete the text and interpret it on your own understanding and the understanding of false prophets. You are trying to lay a foundation so that you can claim that JS saw God. You are putting your eternal salvation in the hope that JS was a prophet of God. But, if he were a prophet of God, he wouldn’t have taught a god with a beginning who merely organized matter to create, but a God who created “ex nihilo,” who was Himself uncreated, without beginning and without end. Praying for you.

    Peace and Grace!

  32. shematwater says:

    I gladly accept that I am polytheistic. I have no proplem with this, and never will. I can see it in the Bible, and it really doesn’t matter to me if anyone else does or not.

    Falcon Said “Polythieism fails to ask these questions: “Where did the god I am worshipping come from? How was he created? If he is not the First Cause, who is? Polytheists, by failing to ask these questions, end up serving demi-gods.”
    I have to disagree. I am a polytheistic person, as is the LDS church, but they have asked, and answered these questions.

    “Where did the God I am worshipping come from?” He was a spirit child of his Father. He born on a world, much like this one.

    “How was he created?” Technically he never was. Technically none of us ever were. Matter cannot be created or destroyed. He was originally a spirit child born to his Father. He was no more created by his Father than we are created by our parents in mortality.

    “If he is not the first cause, who is?” He is the first cause for this Earth, and that is sufficient. However, in truth there can be no first cause, because if there was there would logically be a last cause, thus things would not be eternal. Gods have always existed, and they have always been having spirit children who have been progressing to godhood, and there always will be.

    So, I have asked, and answered these questions. Do I worship a Demi-God. No. I worship a god. In fact, I worship the only God of this Earth and this heaven. There has never been a true God worshiped here before the God I worship, and there will never be another after him.

    Sorry, but the argument just doesn’t hold up.

    On a final note, GKNEILSON is making the point that you try to take every verse literally, and in doing so you contradict other verses in the Bible. His point in going on the topic of seeing God was simply that it is a much easier way to show this.

  33. Ralph says:

    All I can say about the montheism/polytheism is that the way many non-LDS present our belief very much misrepresents what we actually believe in because they do not give full details. As Berean said above, when he questioned the old man at the end all he (Berean) said was that we LDS believe in many gods and that we believe that we can become gods ourselves. What he did not mentioned was that we only worship one God who we believe is the Father of our spirits and our Heavenly Father. As such we have the potential to become like Him, just as our children have the potential to grow up/mature and become adults like their parents. The way Berean presented it can be misconstrued that we not only believe that there are other beings out there like God, but that we worship them too – which is not true. That’s the main problem that we LDS have about what you Evs say – you approach it so that others will be confused about what we actually believe/teach. It is because of your bias against the LDS church that you present things in such manner. Whether it is purposely done or done by bad presentation methods it misrepresents the truth.

    But lets look at criticism from outside the Christian community. Many, if not most, Jews and Muslims say that the Trinity in which the Christian community believe is actually a polythiestic god. So the same criticism against the LDS church can also be aimed at the Christian community in general. I know it does not bother many here but that’s the perception in many of the Jewish and Muslim communities – Christians are polythiests.

  34. falcon says:

    Well this is interesting. Mormonism is polytheistic and monotheistic as demonstrated by our two most recent Mormon posters. What’s a fella to believe? What do the boys that sit in the big tall buildings in Salt Lake City say about this?

    Provide some scripture references for your doctrine of the nature of God. You know the theory of free floating particles out there in space that became the first “a god” of Mormonism. What you’ve written has popped-up here before. Would you like to tell us where you get this doctrine?
    It must have been pretty prominent in the OT. And Jesus talked a lot about it, I guess, right? And the writings of the NT are just all over this concept. I think you’ll find it in the same place that you’ll find the writings about the Christian temples, Christian polygamy, Christian temple rituals, magic underwear, temple garments and of course the reestablishment of the priesthood in the NT Church and of course magic rocks that you put in hats to translate ancient documents.
    This stuff is all there, right?

  35. jackg says:

    I am writing to those who are just looking in and not participating. We as Christians maintain that Mormonism and Christianity are not the same thing. I feel confident that the Mormon rhetoric espoused by the Mormon faithful proves that point rather plainly. Christians believe in one God, while Mormons believe in a host of gods, a club in which they hope to gain entrance with the secret invitation called a temple recommend. They believe in a god who had a beginning, while Christianity holds faithful to the biblical message that there has never been a time in which God did not exist. Mormons believe that matter has always existed, that it cannot be created or destroyed, which leads to the belief that God did not create “out of nothing,” but merely organized something that predates even Him. Christians, naturally, believe that God created matter, because He created everything. Mormons believe in a “grandpa god” and so forth, while Christians believe there has never been a god before God, nor will there ever be. So, if you are deciding whether or not you should investigate the Mormon Church, I hope you can see that the evidence disqualifies them as being Christian. The Mormon view can only be described as heretical, and it’s against heresy that we fight, not the people. Choose wisely. Your eternity depends on it.

    Peace and Grace!

  36. Ralph said “What he did not mentioned was that we only worship one God who we believe is the Father of our spirits and our Heavenly Father.”

    Like the disciples (Matt 14:33, Matt 28:9, Luke 24:52, John 9:38), I worship Jesus.

    According to your logic, me, the disciples and even the Heavenly Beings in Revelation are getting it wrong.

    I suggest that when your logic flatly contradicts the Bible, its not the Bible that needs to be changed.

  37. Ralph says:


    I worship Jesus as my Lord, Saviour and Redeemer and the Son of God (see esp Matt 14:33); but I give all praise and glory to Heavenly Father and worship Him as my only God. This is what Jesus has asked us to do.

    New word for the day – I found out that we LDS can be defined as MONOLATRIST as we worship one God only and its the same God through the whole ‘existance’ of our church, although we do believe that there are other gods. This is different to henotheism which is the worship of one head/main god, but that god could change every now and then depending on circumstances.

  38. Ralph,

    Seems to me that you’re more dualatrist (if there is such a thing). You worship the Hevaenly Father and you worship the Son.

    The problem is that you’re going to upset one or the other of them, because whoever commanded that “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3) obviously wasn’t going to tolerate the worship of anyone else.

    And, as noted previously, whoever spoke Isaiah 43;10-11 obviously does not want us to recognize anyone else as God. Apply this to your “two gods” theory, and you’ll see that Father and Son are not exactly working together. You’ll actually conclude that the one tries to get our attention at the expense of the other.

    There is absolutely no way that you can reconcile the idea of a created god (one among many) with the Biblical idea of God. It just does not work, no matter how much you want it to.

    Give it up! The LDS “teachers” who promote this garbage do not know what they are talking about. Its “pidooma”.

  39. falcon says:

    Ahhhhh, I see we’ve maintained this thread on the nature of God for how many posts? It’s the whole deal and my objective here is for those who are questioning Mormonism……to know the distinct difference between the Mormon view of the nature of God and the traditional, orthodox, Biblical view. Joseph Smith, as a product of 19th century evangelical Christianity was a monotheist. Then about the time he hit his stride in Nauvoo, became both a polytheist and a polygamist. I guess our Mormon friends would have us believe that Joseph Smith had an incomplete revelation of both God and marrage when he started his religion and…..what (?)……grew? And then the SLC Mormons “ungrew” as far as plural wifery is concerned? We know that the sect of Mormonism which was headed by Joseph Smith’s son and claimed Emma (Joe’s wife) as a member rejected both polygamy and polytheism. The Community of Christ obviously figured something out that Brigham Young didn’t. A person would have to be pretty far down the deception trail to go with the Brighamites.
    God’s Church has always, yes always, been monotheistic in orientation. The Church fathers protected the Word which was delivered to them, once and for all is the way Jude states it. Joseph Smith was just one of many false prophets that have challenged that Word. The enemy will do all that he can to bring God down. It’s a losing battle of course. Mormons need to decide who they will follow. As for me and my family, we will follow the Lord.

  40. shematwater says:


    I get this doctrine from the teachings of the prophets in this day and age. The King Faulet discourse teaches us a great deal about God and his nature, and wear he came from. Brigham Young spoke many times concerning this, and we have that very famous quote that you yourself used: “As man is God once was. As God is man may become.”

    While I understand you only believe in the Bible, to force those of us who accept other scripture to use only that to support our doctrine is rediculous. I do not think the Bible has all of God’s word to man. I believe there is more. It is in this extra writtings and words of other prophets that we gain a clearer understanding of God.

  41. falcon says:

    First of all, I’m beginning to wonder where you’re at with you’re understanding or depth of knowledge of Mormonism. I think it’s King “Follet” discourse, but I’ll stand corrected if you prove me wrong. You need to dig deeper into the history and teaching of Mormonism before you start making bold and authoritative pronouncements. Mormonism is Mormonism. If you want to follow it, that’s your perogative, but the bottom line, it’s not restored Christianity. If you want to have conversations regarding these things, do the hard work of examining the history of Mormonism. When someone shows-up claiming to be a prophet, it’s incumbent on that person to prove themselves. Joseph Smith fails miserably. The excuses Mormons have to make for Joseph Smith are embarrassing. The guy isn’t even a very good false prophet.
    I’m not forcing you to do anything. You can accept the Koran or the Satanic Bible for all I care. Maybe you should look into the Book of Abraham, another one of Joseph Smith’s “translations”. There are more Mormons going out the back door today than coming in the front because those folks who are leaving were willing to do the hard work of digging into Mormonism and not just accept the oft repeated slogans learned down at the wards.
    Are you interested in the truth? Just for a starter, go out to YouTube and watch the presentation by Lyndon Lamborn a former Mormon lifer and true blue Mormon who accepted the challenge of looking into the history of Mormonism. See what he has to say.

  42. Ralph says:


    did you read what I said? I said that I worship Heavenly Father as my ONLY God. As far as your comment about ticking one or the other off – I also said that Jesus told us to give all praise and glory to The Father, so Hee (ie Jesus) will not feel ‘left out’ because we are doing what He told us to do.

  43. falcon says:

    Wait, wait, wait, I have it here but I can’t put my fingers on it right now. Who was it? Orson Pratt that said if you worship one of the Mormon gods, you worship all of the Mormon gods. The polytheistic Mormnon has a choice according to Pratt (?) to pick a god, worship that god, and cover all of the other million billion gods out there in Mormon outer space. And if my memory serves me right, our Mormon poster came out for worshiping Jesus a few months back. Wellllllllllll, it’s OK, revelation comes and goes. So spin the Mormon god roulette wheel, and win every time. A Mormon can worship the god of Kolob or any of the other planet gods out there. What difference does it make anyway? The Mormon Jesus isn’t the Biblical Jesus. Mormons have a different god so it follows they have a different Jesus. They certainly wouldn’t worship the offspring of mother-father god since mother-father god have lots of spirit children floating around some of who have already gone on to become gods themselves and who, actually, our Mormon friends are worshiping also according to Orson Pratt.
    What a religion!

  44. grindael says:

    If Jesus and the Father were not ONE God, then why did the disciples “fall down and WORSHIP Him” when he appeared to them after the ressurection? If Jesus were not ONE with the Father, would He not have said: Hey, HEY guys, what are you doing? I just need to be acknowledged, not WORSHIPPED! What sense does the Mormon approach have in all this. Since the Gospel is eternal, why is the message of Jesus so expanded upon by Joseph Smith? If God is Adam, as Brigham Young so weirdly put it in the Journal of Discourses, then why did not Jesus just say so? He told the Pharisees and that ilk many times that He spoke openly about ALL his teachings. I have read what his followers wrote. I didn’t get any thing out of it that told about Adam-God coming down and having intercourse with Mary to have Jesus. If that had happened, don’t you think it would have been just a little bit important to know? The beauty of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has always been the SIMPlICITY of it, and the Mormons, like the Gnostics and those that John wrote of, have to add in doctrines to gain followers, to set themselves apart as being the ONLY way. What I would tell Mormon Missionaries who come to me is this: When Jesus sent out the seventy, and they came back, the Apostles said to Jesus, Hey there’s a man over there casting out demons in your name who isn’t one of us, what is up with that. We told him to stop. Jesus simply said, Leave him alone, whoever is not against us is for us… Jesus did not say the man had to join a specific sect, go through various hidden rituals, learn secret teachings that were whispered to just a few, have some mystical priesthood layed on him to enable him to cast out demons, heal the sick, etc. It all came with just one thing. Just one. BELIEVE on ME. IN MY NAME. That’s it folks, the rest is up to us. Jesus has us covered. Jesus is GOD, God is Jesus. Simple, Perfect and unchangable. Like God is.

  45. shematwater says:


    I know the history of the LDS church. I know it very well, and everything in it has only served to strengthen my convictions of its truth, of its devine origin, and the fact that this is the only church on the Earth today that is wholey of Christ and acceptable to him. There is nothing in our history that has, or ever will change this.

    Joseph Smith was a great man, and his actions and words prove him to be a prophet, just as much as the Bible proved Moses was a prophet, or Elijah, or Peter, or Paul. Joseph Smith was a great man, and a great prophet. He stand as the head of this dispensation, one of the archangels of heaven, with Adam, Noah, Enoch, and all the heads. He was called by Christ, ordained by Peter, James, and John, and all men who live in these latter-days must accept this or they will be rejected by Christ.

    (Where did Orson Pratt say what you claim he did?
    As to it being faulet, or follet, does it really matter as you obviously knew what I was talking about.)

  46. shematwater says:


    We are to worship Christ as our Lord, but we are to worship the Father as our God. Christ is a god, he is God the Son. As such he is our Lord and mediator. However, while we worship him, we give glory and honor to the Father. It is all very simple.

    AS to Adam-God, I have to say that Brigham Young never said this. I understand the confusion, as he makes references that are confusing to those who do not understand LDS doctrine.
    Christ is the savior of all the Father’s children, on all the Earths that have be created for them. As such he cannot spend all his time on only one of them. Thus the first man born on each becomes the god of that planet, acting under Christ. So, Adam is our God, but he not the Father.
    The references to the Father of Christ being the first man do confuse at first. However, when you understand that God is a man (as he was once like us) this is easily a reference to a different person other than Adam. This is also evident when you realize that Brigham Young had stopped his discourse concerning Adam and had switched to the nature of Christ.
    As to not being told these things in the Bible, why do we need to be told everything explincitly? Why can we not use the intelligence we have to reason out what is true from what we were given? What Brigham Young says, when you take all the doctrine of the church, makes perfect sense. It is a logical progression of ideas.
    Now, as I said in another thread, Brigham Young, in the same sermon, told us not to discuss the mysteries of God away from the body of the Church. When with the body, when with those who also have the Holy Ghost, we can discuss things, and if we are wrong there are enough others there to correct us. When away from the body we do not have others to correct us, and thus we are to let mysteries alone. So, the epistles, being written to those away form the main body, using the same logic, would not contain these mysteries (and the four Gospels are also epistles

  47. jackg says:


    You are in denial. BY most assuredly taught that Adam was god, the only god with which Mormons have to deal. Again, you are lying to protect the heresies of your leaders. I don’t think you are as ignorant as you are deceitful. It is very clearly documented that JS preached Adam-god Doctrine for many years, and even stated that God would not allow him to teach anything that was false. I understand LDS doctrine, so you can just quit with that argument. Once again, Christians must point out the lies and heresies that are presented to the world. The only one confused seems to be you.

    Peace and Grace in hopes that you repent of the false doctrines you preach to others!

  48. shematwater says:


    You obviously know very little of the doctrines of the LDS church. You know only what you want to know. You want the idea that these men taught that Adam is the Father to be true because it makes the LDS church wrong. You will not except any other idea, or explanation of the words of the prophets because to do so would force you to reconsider what you believe.

    Brigham Young did say that Adam is our god, and the only god with which we have to deal. But have you read the entire sermon in which this was stated. Have you read everything he has taught. And after you have read it, have you even attempted to think and ponder on those words, or have you simply excepted the twisted and vile interpretation others have put on them as it makes your side look better?

    Adam is our god, and the only one with which we will have to deal. Why is this true? Because in the eternities Christ will be overseeing countless numbers of worlds. Thus, we will have only direct dealings with Adam, who is the father of the human race on this earth. He is Micheal, the Ancient of Days, and we all will serve under him in Exhaultation. We will see Christ, but Adam will be the one we deal with directly.

    This is what Brigham Young meant. This is the doctrine that he taught. Evil men can twist his words to deceive the people, but, as Daniel saw in his vision, Adam (the Ancient of days) will come before the return of Christ to proclaim the truth of what Brigham Young taught to all the world.

  49. Ralph says:

    Since the Bible references Satan as the god of this world, I guess that is whom we all worship. Or is it? We have been over the ‘Adam-God’ thing many times. There are a handfull of talks and notes, most personal communications that I am aware of not public speeches, in which BY did teach that Adam was God. What he meant by that I do not know because in one of his speeches (the first one in which he brings this up I believe) he says that he could not say anymore on the subject at that point in time. So there is more to the explanation that is missing – meaning that we do not fully know what he meant by what he said. However, there are literally hundreds of sermons and letters in which BY teaches that Adam and Heavenly Father are two seperate individuals. So we know that BY taught and believed MORE in the two of them being seperate beings.

    So all I can say is – go ahead and speculate about what BY meant; BUT when you present it to others you should then make the comment that this is your interpretation only of what you think BY meant, that because he taught more about them being seperate beings, he could have meant something different.

    By the way, JS said nothing about Adam being god – was that a typo or do you have something I haven’t seen yet?

  50. jackg says:

    Shem and Ralph,

    I will continue to pray for you both. It is clear that you have both been sufficiently indoctrinated in the heretical teachings of JS; your attempts to defend them don’t make any sense at all. But, there is hope for you. I was once as indoctrinated as you both are, and presented all these arguments the same way that you do. But, God did not give up on me, and saved me from the bondage of Mormonism. He wants to do that for you both, as well. He wants to save everyone. I just pray that you will both allow God to humble you sufficiently to the point that you can admit that you really don’t know anything. The Mormon testimony is built on lie after lie after lie. I’ve been there, and had to repent of spreading heresies, myself. My heart goes out to both of you and your families. And, know, that there are people praying for the redemption of all Mormons, and some of them are naming you both by name.

    Peace and Grace!

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