In July of 2004 Mark Hacking called the police to report his wife, Lori, was missing. Almost a year later Mark was convicted of first-degree murder. He had shot his sleeping, pregnant wife in the head with a .22 rifle and sent her body off to decay in a Salt Lake County landfill.
Mark and Lori were eternally married in the autumn of 1999 in the Bountiful (UT) Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They planned to someday be together in the Celestial kingdom. Lori’s murder changed that plan. As a murderer, Mark has committed a sin
“for which there is ‘no forgiveness’ (D&C 42:79), meaning that a murderer can never gain salvation…he is outside the pale of redeeming grace…
“Murderers are forgiven eventually but…they are not forgiven in the sense that celestial salvation is made available to them…After they have paid the full penalty for their crime, they shall go on to a telestial inheritance.” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, “Murderers,” 520)
According to LDS doctrine, exaltation in the Celestial kingdom is only available to couples, and only to couples that have been married for time and all eternity in a Mormon temple:
“If one is going to be in God’s kingdom of exaltation, where God dwells in all his glory, one will be there as a husband or wife and not otherwise.” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 245)
“Since marriage is ordained of God, and the man is not without the woman, neither the woman without the man in the Lord, there can be no exaltation to the fulness of the blessings of the celestial kingdom outside of the marriage relation. A man cannot be exalted singly and alone; neither can a woman. Each must have a companion to share the honors and blessings of this great exaltation.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:65)
What I’m wondering is, according to the LDS gospel system, what happens to Lori Hacking? Joseph Fielding Smith said,
“No one can be deprived of exaltation who remains faithful. In other words, an undeserving husband cannot prevent a faithful wife from an exaltation and vice versa.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:65)
Lori’s parents have removed the “Hacking” name from Lori’s gravestone, telling the press that “Mark obviously didn’t want her (Lori) anymore.” I’m guessing that if Lori could speak, we’d find the feeling is mutual. It’s unlikely that Lori would want to spend eternity sealed to her murderer.
So what does eternity hold for Lori? Assuming she was “a faithful wife,” how does the Mormon system grant her its highest promised blessing?
Please provide source documentation with your answers.
Falcon said,
Sadly we should not look in the BoM either since Mormonism is not their either. Rick b
falcon said:
There’s a mind set in Mormonism that can’t be penetrated by reason.
I would agree with a minor change in wording: There is a mind set in Mormonism that transcends reason.
That would be quite correct as Paul taught:
1 Cor 2:
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Simple- Mormon faith is in the Power of God, not in the wisdom of men.
Mobaby,
Thanks for rescuing my sanity with your post. If being married was as important as Joseph Fielding Smith taught, then it would be all over the NT…
…but its not.
However, let’s go with Joseph Fielding Smith on this one for a while and say that you can’t enter the Celestial Kingdom unless you are married (yup, that’s what he taught in his “Doctrines of Salvation” no less). Lets also go with the evidence of the NT and say that Jesus was not married, or could not get married before he was killed. Bit of a problem? Answer, we can fix up Jesus’ marital problem vicariously by some secret temple ritual. Hurrah for us – God must be pleased!
Does this work in Mormon reasoning? It seems to fit.
Never mind that it competely reverses the Gospel. Instead of Jesus saving us, we save him.
GRCluff said
Faith in the power of what god? You guys believe in millions of gods, you believe you will be a god, and despite all the contradictions you have blind faith. Most LDS here were SILENT on the Nature of God topic. Rick b
Rick B:
In this case we are referencing a single God- the Holy Ghost.
1 Thess 1:5
For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
Hi Everyone:
As a long time reader to the site but a rare poster I have a question for our LDS readers.
I often seem to have this very conversation with my LDS friends here in Utah and I think it has been touched on here but not fully discussed.
If being sealed/exhaulted is so important in LDS theology, which it is, why are the Gospels so short on details regarding Jesus’s marriage status? The comments I have read thus far talk a lot about the fact that there might be some evidence to support the idea he was married, but why wouldn’t it have been made crystal clear in the Gospels given its importance and spiritual significance in LDS theology? Doesn’t this seem a little odd? Why wouldn’t the Gospel writers be explicit in this matter?
Genuine question; I look forward to your answers and ensuing discussion.
GRCLUFF “Simple- Mormon faith is in the Power of God, not in the wisdom of men.”
Cmon now Cluff. Every bit of “extra-biblical” doctrine you and other Mormons believe in is ONLY because a MAN (Joseph Smith) “revealed” it.
If there was no Joseph Smith, you wouldn’t even be a Mormon today. Yes, there would be other religions, or cults you can say claiming to be restored Christianity, but I don’t believe for one second if you prayed a solemn prayer in a forest somewhere, God would reveal to you, GRcluff, Mormonism.
It sickens me that the Bible gives CLEAR and SPECIFIC wisdom on how to obtain salvation and yet Mormons dilute its message with extra-biblical nonsense.
No man comes to the Father, but by JESUS CHRIST!
— NOT by Jesus Christ AND a sweet relief society girl or two, or 24, on your arm.
So simple, so clear, yet you don’t endure sound doctrine and have your so-called prophets tickle your ears with promises of Godhood. Shame.
Shem wrote “So [Jesus’] wife, and any children he might have had, would have been hidden and kept secret”
Where do these guys get their theology from? Dan Brown’s “The Da Vinci Code”, perhaps? (Its a central theme of the plot)
This would be funny, if it wasn’t taken seriously.
I asked an LDS mother once if she had been to see the film “The Da Vinci Code”. She said she hadn’t, so I asked her why not. She said that it didn’t tell her anything about Jesus.
Well, good for her (I’d agree with her statement).
The problem was that our conversation was over a lunch table with several LDS men present, including an LDS Bishop. They were all silent. Maybe they had never come across Shem’s idiotic assertions about Jesus having wife/wives and children. Maybe they had, but if they had, the opportunity was there for them to shed some of the light of the true Gospel and liberate this poor LDS mother and me from our shared, delusional apostasy.
Cluff,
I couldn’t agree with you more in your comments regarding Mormonism being beyond reason; so in the Mormon mind-set it’s a major selling point. Taking your perspective to its logical conclusion, the more unreasonable something is, the more it is to be believed. So it is with many of the statements and actions of Mormon prophets and teachers over the years. The more off-the-wall the better the faithful like it.
I would draw your attention to Luke 24:27. Jesus takes a reasoned approach to explain who He is and what His purpose was in becoming a man, dying for our sins, arising from the dead etc.; a fairly unreasonable thing to consider, but He used the Scriptures and His own appearance there to confirm who He is.
Mormons are stuck, because they have to accept anything the Morg puts out. Follow the leader is the name of the game and compliance and blind acceptance is how merit badges are earned within the system.
Pulling a quote out of the Bible and applying it to this topic is typical of Mormon logic. I would suggest you spend a little time contemplating those verses, looking at the context of the verse, the setting, who the writer was talking to and what the topic was leading him to make the statement. Go deep Cluff, go deep!
Very intersting question posed and ensuing discussion. I have one more question to add to it:
Why did Paul say it is better to not be married and to only marry if we can’t control our temptations.
Mormons will argue this is his opinion. OK, but why would his, Paul’s, opinion be so different from what the real requirements are?
falcon:
The purpose of the Holy Ghost is to witness about truth. You know, Jesus is the Christ, the Bible is the word of God etc. Most of it is quite reasonable. It is a spiritual journey we all start, but few finish.
Once you are familiar with the spirit’s witness on those things, don’t be surprised if the SAME spirit says something a little less ordinary, like say- JS was a true prophet and, I know, the Priesthood of God was restored through him. Many will call it unreasonable, but it is the same witness we have heard before. Now you know what Paul was talking about when he said our faith must be in the power of God rather than the wisdom of men. Mens wisdom will reject the unreasonable things THAT ARE TRUE. It that day it was Christ. In our day it is JS.
So, it could be unreasonable, but IT MUST BE TRUTH, or you are not following the right Holy Ghost.
Cluff,
You are absoultely correct. One of us is not following the correct Spirit. I think we have made progress here. Excellent post. I think what the Christians here have done is examine the life of Joseph Smith, his claims and activities, the symbols and rituals of Mormonism and have concluded that the spirit of this religion is not the same Spirit as that of Biblical Christianity. I might add that this is not that surprising since the god of Mormonism is not the God of orthodox Biblical Christianity.
I don’t doubt your piety, desire to live a good honorable life or your devotion to what you believe. The problem is, Mormons have to make way too many excuses and faulty explanations to make Mormonism work in thier minds. What makes it work is the feelings/emotions that Mormons attach to their beliefs and experiences. This makes it all appear very spiritual but there are spirits out there that can provide these things for you. I have had many miraculous spiritual experiences but I test them all in light of God’s holy Word the Bible. That’s how I stay centered and on track. I also depend on the witness of others whom I trust, to verify what I experience or “hear” in the spirit.
The spirit of Mormonism is very strong but I must add, very deceitful. This is indeed a spiritual battle that is not only waged here on earth but in the heavenlies.
You’re on the right track with your insights, you just need to go a little further. I’ll be in prayer for you.
First, insulting people does very little to further a discussion, and as far as I can see almost every person who is not LDS has done very little else towards the LDS on this thread.
Everything I believe is based in reason and logic. Everything that I say concerning my beliefs has been carefully thought out and reasoned for over ten years. I have yet to see anyone point out an actual contradiction in anything that it taught by the LDS church. They have tried. However, as it always turns out, they are complaining that our doctrine contradicts their doctrine.
I have said why I believe Christ is married, and it is not simply because he was at a wedding, but because of the way he was treated at the wedding. Put this with the fact that Paul has told us that a Man cannot be without the woman (and vice versa) and the doctrine of marriage as given in our day I find it very easy to believe he was married, and I find no real stretch that he had children.
As to RickB argument that he was a terrible Husband, I do not see it. It would have been a great honor to be married to Christ. Simply because he was going to die and leave this earth does not mean he would make a good husband. If that is true than no one is a good husband as we will all die eventually, and leave this earth.
I might agree if he was married during his ministry, but as I pointed out, the marriage in Cana was before his ministry. Thus he would ahve lived with his wife for a time before his ministry started, and, like Peter, would have left his wife in the care of his family during his ministry.
Personally I don’t care what you believe. As long as the Prophet of God does not state otherwise there is no harm in believing either way.
Shem,
I have pointed out a contradiction. Maybe you didn’t read, and that is really OK, but why did Paul, the biggest apostle of all, say it is better not to be married? He walked and talked with God, and yet he got this foundational teaching that marriage is essential to reach ultimate salvation wrong?
Please explain.
See, if he got this wrong, and it is only his opinion, why in the world should we trust anything else he says, including that which supports your theology? That would be in as much doubt as his opinion in this instance. And that would destroy all his epistles in terms of reliability, which as you know, destroys much of the NT.
Further, Paul’s writings were highly influential in his own day, and were considered scripture because they were widely used to teach. So, this teaching was probably widely taught in that time, and therefore even the most early Chrstians were getting it wrong.
So, please do explain why Paul saying that marriage shoud be avoided supports your theology and also lifts up the Bible.
Shematwater,
I always enjoy our discussions and I am truly distressed if you have been insulted by my responses. I hope that you can understand that while you may find your beliefs as based reason and logic I find them wanting when compared to the Scripture itself.
There is nothing from the wedding at Cana to story suggest that Jesus was the Groom. In fact John 2:12 has Jesus, His mother, brother and disciples going to Capernaum for a brief say before Jesus goes to Jerusalem. There is no mention of a Wife. You claim that Jesus’s ministry had not begun prior to the Wedding but John the Baptist proclaimed him the “Son of God” in John 1:34 and Jesus is already calling his disciples. How exactly can Jesus have followers if his ministry has not begun?
I do not pose these questions to be insulting or the question the time you have spent developing your beliefs, I just do not understand how anyone can rest a theology on positions that are far from clear biblicaly.
So this idea of who is following what Spirit isn’t all that complex of a question. First of all I’m wondering if we all agree:
1. That the God Christians acknowledge and the god that mormons acknowledge are not the same.
2. That the Jesus Christians acknowledge and the jesus Mormons acknowledge are also different.
3. That the Spirit that Christians acknowledge and the spirit Mormons acknowledge are also different.
Now if we can establish that, than it’s just a matter, at least for Christians, of looking at a few basic facts to determine the true from the false.
First of all we can look at Joseph Smith the purveyor of the “new” god. It’s interesting to note that the Community of Christ and the Temple Lot Mormon sects, reject most of the fundamental beliefs of the Utah based Mormon church. I get these two mixed-up, but I know one of them has rejected everything Joseph Smith taught after the 1832 Book of Commandments. In fact, The Community of Christ, looks more like an early version of a Church that was evangelical Christian in it’s orientation including the orthodox Christian view of the nature of God. This pretty much reflects what the BoM teaches as it borrows heavily from the Bible and 19th century evangelical Christian revialism of the time. It was the Nauvoo Smith that these groups have jettisoned because of the aberrant teachings regarding the nature of God and polygamy particularly.
I’ve been through this countless times here but the abreviated version, Joseph Smith followed the spirit of the occult in his seer stone hunting for buried treasure, his “translation” of the “golden plates”, the temple rituals meaning to conjur up the spirits of the dead, the decorating of the temples with occult symbols instead of Christian symbols acknowledging the spirit being followed, the Free Masonry influences in Mormonism and on and on.
So, I’ve heard Mormonisms massaging of these facts but in the end, the fact is their’s is a different spirit.
falcon:
I can buy your first two propositions, but I have a small issue with the third.
I know there are different “spirits” about, and that the devil can “simulate” false witnesses, the question is where and who follows the false witness, and who/where are the true witnesses of the Holy Spirit.
I am convinced that the Holy Rollers who jump scream and shout under the ‘influence” are not following the right spirit- but there are many in both Christian and Mormon churches that follow the true spirit, because there is truth in both, and the HG testifies of truth.
Jesus is the savior of the world, and the spirit of God will witness to that effect, even in the Mormon Church. I have felt the witness of the Holy Spirit as I study the Bible, and the same witness when I study the Book of Mormon.
I am also convinced that when a mainstream Christian fails to follow the witness when it moves on to the next topic, i.e. The witness that Jesus is Christ followed by the witness that JS was a prophet – he looses the first witness. If he fails to move on as instructed by God to accept His authorized agents on earth, his progress is stalled- he is doomed to darkness. Sorry man.
Cluff,
I’d be curious as to if you reject the Holy Spirit as proclaimed by orthodox, Biblical Christianity. That’s a fairly straight forward question. You’ve come to the place in your life where you have rejected the God of Biblical Christianity and you have also rejected the Jesus of Biblical Christianity. Logically you can’t than say that you belive in the Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity. It just doesn’t work. I mean you can say it, but it doesn’t work that way. And that’s because the Holy Spirit, as described by Biblical Christianity, is not the same as that of Mormonism. You follow the spirit of Mormonism who is more than happy to provide you with spiritual feelings etc. but it’s not coming from the Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity.
I have no problem saying I reject the god of Mormonism, the jesus of Mormonism and the spirit of Mormonism. I have no problem saying I reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, the BoM as scripture, the current prophet of the Mormon church, and the Mormon church as God’s church. You see, we can’t live even a little bit in both worlds. There’s no fudge factor here. No equivication, no skating around the edges. Yo
I don’t agree at all with your proposition in your last paragraph but at least you qualify it by saying “I believe”. Because you see the Holy Spirit tells me that Joseph Smith is not a prophet but is indeed a fraud. I then follow that up with solid evidence to support what “I believe”.
Now it is true that Jesus is the Savior, but again we need to define who Jesus is. That’s a term borrowed by Mormoms from Christianity, but it does not mean the same to a Mormon as to a Christian. You see I know that Jesus is the Christ, I know that he died and shed His blood for my sins and as I accept Him by faith, I have eternal life in His name. I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ….period…..I have a personal relationship with Him.
You have no such assurances given to you by your jesus.
To All,
A Mormon’s testimony is predicated by the term “I know” which is meant to show confidence and convince the hearer of the truth of what the Mormon is saying. The Mormon testimony is based on a “spiritual” experience that causes the Mormon to proclaim the “I know” with the confidence which they do. This is an unquantifiable experience that becomes the test for the truth.
Once a Mormon has this “I know” experience, all questioning must stop and they must follow the edicts, proclamation and teachings of the leaders of the Mormon church. The “I know” experience has the effect of causing the Mormon to think and feel super spiritual and connected to the Mormon god. There’s a sense of self pride and superiority for the Mormon as he now sees himself as being super spiritual in comparison to those of other religions, who he (Mormon) assumes don’t have spiritual experiences or spiritual manifestations in their lives.
I’ve learned over the years in my walk with the Lord, to be very careful when it comes to subjective “spiritual” experiences. I’ve had many, some of which I would term more emotional in nature, that is, experiencing an emotional “buzz” as a reaction to something that has touched me deeply. I’ve gotten it reading the apostle’s creed and as a result meditating on the awesomeness of God. I’ve gotten it singing praise and worship songs in a church service or even listening to such music. So does this prove the truth of anything. When I’m in despair, crying out to God, feeling low, does that prove “a truth” about anything. See I’ve learned something very simple; feelings follow thoughts. But feelings don’t provide a whole lot of information about whether those dominant thoughts are true. They do of course provide an “I know” reaction, but what “I know” is often as not to be false as true.
Now if someone says “I know” over and over again enough times with accompanied thoughts and confirmed by the resulting flow of emotions, what is said becomes reality and true (to the person repeating the mantra). If it’s believed that God has a hand in it all, well look out now. If questions do arise as to the veracity of what “I know”, those questions are to be buried deep, denied and interpreted as a challenge to the spiritual experience and to God Himself.
It is really tough to talk someone out of their feelings especially if those feelings have a supposed spiritual root and are reinforced and maintained by a group. So much equity gets invested in the group and the group’s shared religious experiences, that it (equity) must be maintanied at all costs and rescued if threatened.
Does any of this have anything to do with the “truth” of anything? Are their genuine spiritual experiences sent by (caused) by God’s Holy Spirit. Of course, but the trick is knowing what comes from God’s spirit, what is manufactured emotion, and what comes from the dark side. How do “I know”. I’ve become a religious skeptic, that’s how. Now my skeptisism takes a lot of fun out of things, but it also keeps me well grounded. Also, one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is “discernment”; that is the supernatural ability to tell the differences in the “spirits”. This is a gift God provides in the Church, like the other spiritual gifts, when functioning properly, keeps the group on track. This can be a type of “knowing” sent by God, but it’s different than the “knowing” manufactured by the power of suggestion, constant repeating of a mantra, and positive reinforcment of a group.
When it comes to those of us who observe and study aberrant religious groups that claim a Christian heritage, it’s pretty easy to discern the true from the false. Using God’s spiritual gifts and the testimony of His Word and often just plain common sense and intuition, the false is glaringly false.
For those of you who have been following my above posts, I’m sure it’s become pretty obvious to you that the point of the exercise is to get my friend Cluff, and by proxy, the other Mormons to do what Cluff has done and tell us that they reject the God of Biblical Christianity, that they reject the Jesus of Biblical Christianity and finally to admit they reject the Holy Spirit that we orthodox Biblical Christians acknowledge.
While Cluff has admitted rejection of God and Jesus, he hasn’t crossed over the line at this point and admitted to a rejection of the Holy Spirit. I, on-the-other-hand, have had no difficulty acknowledging that the Holy Spirit and the spirit of Mormonism are not the same Spirit and I have no problem rejecting the spirit of Mormonism.
When we point out to Mormons the obvious connections between Mormonism and the occult, they spin and sputter and give us all kinds of explanations why things that are obviously occult in nature, really aren’t. When I hear these explanations it reminds me of the words of that great barrister of TV Judge Judy when she says, “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining!”
Mormons are apt to accept anything passed off in Mormonism as “spiritual” as the real thing, especially if it makes them feel good and is reinforced by the group. This really isn’t discernment, it’s follow the leader. They remind me of Little Red Riding Hood when encountering the Big Bad Wolf. Red exclaims what big ears, eyes, nose and finally sharp teeth grandma has but it isn’t until BBW pulls off grandma’s bonnet does Red finally get the picture. Unfortuately for our Mormon friends, the pulling off of the bonnet won’t come (for some) until it’s too late.
The Bible tells us that today is the day of our salvation. The Christ of the Bible, who they have rejected, is the pathway to eternal life. God stands ready to pronounce anyone who claims the blood of Christ as payment for their sins, not guilty.
Very intense entries, Falcon. As I have watched and read over the last few months, I am amazed at the degree of effort that goes into “knowing.” And also that the knowing requires that every jot and tittle to be explained. However, pretty soon, it becomes too much, so then it is explained away by “something isn’t clear, yet.” Even when we have shown that it is explained…There seems to be a lot of work and effort to make sure one’s testimony stays true, but then it gets confusing to me, when BYU profs, or prophets, or Presidencies so obviously contradict. Sure, some of them are not the anointed ones. but the Mormon bloggers play really loose with the anointed parts too. Of course truth then seems to be relative. But in the long run, this relativism brings problems.
As a therapist, I wonder about the toll on the family. How does this “unquestioning” attitude play itself out as the child grows into adolescence. I guess it may not be so bad where a child has been in the ward from the beginning. But this seems like a really big problem for those who come in later.
And, when people start questioning, that is where I really see the impact. Mormonism’s counterfeit (IMO!) christianity really shows its colors, when people realize the distortions they have accepted as truth are not, and then some of them will not consider any of the claims of Christ. It is like they have been innoculated, and even after they leave the building, they will never even consider Christ. That leaves me in tears.
This was a rambling post. I apologize, but I am feeling so sad about this stuff right now. I remember the dwarves in Lewis’ The Last Battle. They were in the real Narnia, but still believed they were in the dirty hut. Wonderful food was dismissed as hay and dirt. Grace and peace is still here. Just ask.
GUNDECK
In general you have not been insulting. However, your statement “I hope that you can understand that while you may find your beliefs as based reason and logic I find them wanting when compared to the Scripture itself,” shows exactly what I was meaning. My reasoning does not fit with your beliefs, and how you interpret the scriptures, and that is fine, when it is said like that. But when it is stated that the LDS are devoid of reason because we disagree with you, that is an insult.
As to the referencesin John 1 and 2, look where Christ tells his Mother that his “hour had not yet come.” To me this is saying that his ministry had not yet started. So, either he was preparing for his ministry at this time, but had not yet started, or John put things into the wrong order. I personally would believe the first alternative (that he was still preparing).
MICHEAL P
What contradiction?
As to not being married, I assume you speak of his discourse in 1 Corinthians. As such I would refer you to capter 7 verse 6.
“But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”
Paul, in teaching this, was telling his own personal opinion, not the command of God. To him it was better for men and women not to touch, but this was not a command of the Lord, and so he had to have permission to teach it, which he got.
In verse 10, when speaking to those who are married he tells them “yet not I, but the Lord…” and in verse 12 he says “to the rest speak I, not the Lord…”
So, we know, from the words of Paul himself, that the idea of staying single is not from God, but personal advice given by Paul.
As he does make this clarification here, we can assume that he does not make this clarification he is speaking the will of God.
falcon said:
Once a Mormon has this “I know” experience, all questioning must stop and they must follow the edicts, proclamation and teachings of the leaders of the Mormon church.
This is not right- it is not a single “I know” event for the truly converted. The witness of the HG must continue on for each edict, proclamation and teaching. If/when a teaching is not right, the HG is clearly missing.
For example, I attended a class on the Doctrine and Covenants at BYU. As part of the instruction material on church history, the instructor included material on the “salamander letters”. I’m sure you are aware of the Mark Hoffman forgeries. The discussion “fell flat” for me, meaning the HG was strangly absent. Also absent was any discussion at all on the topic from the leadership of the Church.
When the letters were finally exposed as forgeries, I understood why the HG was silent on the topic.
It is hard listen for silence, and nearly impossible if you are not familiar with the influence of the HG in the first place.
My suggestion: Keep seeking out the witness spoken of by the Bible, you will eventually find that witness obviously present when Mormon doctrine is taught.
Cluff,
Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see where you indicated as to if you reject the Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity. My guess is, you can’t bring yourself to say it because somewhere deep down in your psyche you understand the seriousness of making such a proclamation. But by rejecting the Father and the Son, we can conclude that you also reject the Holy Spirit.
I don’t think you’re being entirely accurate in talking about getting a witness for each edict coming out of the GAs. Are you free to say, “I don’t accept this”? Can you reject what they say and come to your own conclusions and then follow your own thoughts? I don’t think so. Cluff, when the Mormon leaders speak, the thinking has been done. That’s why the thought police are so active withing Mormonism. Ask Grant Palmer, Lyndon Lamborn or Michael Quinn for that matter. Given your version, the FLDS are getting a witness in their spirit that was different than the 1890s edict regarding polygamy. As far as Mormonism is concerned, they’re following Joseph Smith. Utah Mormons are apostates. Or what about the Community of Christ or Temple Lot? They rejected Utah Mormonism and have returned to a more primitive form of Mormonism and embrace many/most of the doctrines of the orthodox Christian Church. Can you do the same?
I think you gave us the sanitized version of the Salamander letters and the silence. The boys got scammed Cluff. If they were prophets, they’d had known it was all a con. Mormons are famous for getting conned.
As to your last sentence, I could write a book in reply. Mormon doctrine is not taught in the Bible. I’ve looked, I can’t find it. In fact I can’t find any Mormonism in the Bible. In fact Cluff, you won’t find Mormonism in the BoM. What you will find is plagerized Bible passages, 19th century evangelical Christian revivalism and a storyline that was pretty common to that era and was written about in another book of that era.
What I’d like the reader, especially our Mormon visitors who read but don’t post here to understand, is what it means to discern spirits. Where our Mormon friend Cluff and others make a critical error, is in thinking that the spiritism of Mormonism and their personal feelings are indications that something is coming from God. They believe they are getting personal messages. That thinking is the remnant of the evangelical Christianity that Joseph Smith folded over into Mormonism…..especially Nauvoo era Mormonism. I have a lot of friends that talk about “what God has told them”. I take it under advisement. So the idea of God speaking personally to someone is pretty common among religious people of many stripes. That’s where discernment comes in. Now in a sense, for Mormons it is coming from a spirit god, but that spirit god is false. It’s not the Holy Spirit as talked about in the Bible. But it’s very deceptive and can be incredibly attractive.
As Christians we spot it right away, but that’s because we are born again and are operating under the Gifts of the Holy Spirit discussed by the apostle Paul in First Corinthians chapters 12 and 14. This is indeed a spiritual battle as discussed by Paul in the first Chapter of the Book of Ephesians.
Mormonism is pretty easy to debunk because it follows a pattern that’s been used countless times over the centuries and is still used today by modern “prophets”. Having never been in a cult, I really can’t appreciate that mindset of the average member. I thank God that he’s protected me from this type of spiritual deception. We can only pray that the light of the Spirit of God will shine brightly on our Mormon friends and that they will come to God.
falcon said:
Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see where you indicated as to if you reject the Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity.
What you missed is my failure to follow your best efforts in misdirection. The Holy Spirt of Biblical Christianity IS the spirit of Mormonism, as you call it. They are one in the same. I can point my finger and say in the same accusatory tone YOU are folling the wrong spirit. The only true Christians in today’s world are Mormon. That doesn’t mean mainstream Christians don’t follow the “Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity” from time to time. It just means that true follows will follow it no matter where it leads. It this case, to Mormonism.
Falcon said – “A Mormon’s testimony is predicated by the term “I know” which is meant to show confidence and convince the hearer of the truth of what the Mormon is saying. The Mormon testimony is based on a “spiritual” experience that causes the Mormon to proclaim the “I know” with the confidence which they do. This is an unquantifiable experience that becomes the test for the truth.
Then he also said – “You see I know that Jesus is the Christ, I know that he died and shed His blood for my sins and as I accept Him by faith, I have eternal life in His name. I have placed my faith and trust in Jesus Christ….period…..I have a personal relationship with Him.
Seems pretty similar if you ask me.
Different Jesus Ralph. The jesus of Mormonism is not a qualified Savior. The Jesus of the Bible, that Chrisitans confess, is the qualified Savior. The salvation that is taught by Biblical Christianity is rejected by Mormonism for another gospel. Back to the drawing board Ralph, but nice try.
Sorry Cluff.
Mangled theology and poor tactics. The misdirection line of your’s tells me I’m right- on and you can’t deal with it effectively.
You reject the orthodox Christian Father, Jesus, and now you want to say it’s the same Spirit. Please Cluff pretend at least that you think I have some amount of intelligence. You won’t reject the Holy Spirit as confessed by Biblical Christianity because you know the consequences. God has revealed to me that you, my friend, are in fear. You are trying to live in both worlds, but God won’t have it. You’ve declared your allegence to another Father, another Jesus, and your trying to wiggle out of saying what Spirit you confess. God is not amused Cluff. He loves you and wants you to be drawn to Him but you resist God’s Spirit for another Gospel. You need to humble yourself and come to God.
Who is the Holy Spirit. He is God. He is omnipresent (Psalm 139.7); He is onmiscient
(1 Corinthians 2:10,11); He is omnipotent (Genesis 1:2). He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14); He is God (Acts 5:3,4). The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son. While the Holy Spirit does indeed occupy a place of submission in the Trinity, He is nevertheless not one whit behind the Father or Son in all their Divine attributes. His perfect equality with the Father and Son is demonstrated through the following NT examples (Matthew 3:16,17) (Matthew 4:1-7) (John 14:16) (John 15:26) (Second Corinthians 13:14) (Matthew 28:19,20)
Lord God I beesech you in name of Jesus Christ that through the power of your Holy Spirit ask you to move on Ralph and Cluff. That you loose what is binding them, that you break the bonds that encumber them.
I think it would be helpful if we defined our terms so we are not talking past each other. Mormons have redefined the words that Christians have used for many centuries. In Mormonism this is how it’s defined:
Holy Ghost – The third member of the LDS godhead; he is a god; he is a spirit man who does NOT have a body of flesh and bones; he is NOT omnipresent; he is the third son of the Mormon god after Christ being the first and Lucifer being the second.
Holy Spirit – the spirit of heavenly father which enlightens every man.
In Christianity the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are synonymous. The LDS definition doesn’t even come close to the Christian definition.
The LDS holy spirit comes from a man who lived on an earth somewhere. He had a savior, this man died, became a god and lives near a star called Kolob where he is isolated since he is not omnipresent either. That is not the Holy Spirit that I follow AT ANY TIME. The Holy Spirit in me fills me, empowers me, instructs, convicts of sin, gives discernment and leads me into Truth. That Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Rom 8:16).
If our Mormon friends can support the LDS definitions above of their holy spirit and holy ghost with God’s Word (the Bible), then I’ll be happy to leave Christianity and follow Mormonism. Until then, I must side with Paul when he warned of “another spirit” in 2 Cor 11:4. Mormons have to explain what Paul meant in that verse. There is only one correct Holy Spirit/Ghost. Prove it to me from the Bible (1 Thes 5:21).
I have a testimony and it’s based on faith PLUS 2,000 years of facts and historical evidence. The Spirit tells me that Jesus is the Christ who is God in the flesh. The Spirit also tells me that Mormonism is false and Joseph Smith is a false prophet. What do we do now? Follow what Brigham Young said or what the Apostle John said (who LDS say is still alive) in 1 John 4:2-3? My testimony cancels out yours. What’s next?
falcon said:
You reject the orthodox Christian Father, Jesus, and now you want to say it’s the same Spirit.
Yeah- that is right, but there is no fear involved, no rejection of any true God, just open acceptance of everything the Holy Sprit brings into my life.
It is just my good fortune, I guess, that the Holy Spirit is clear on the nature of God. I would hate to attempt belief or faith of any kind in a 3 in one God that is way beyond anyone’s understanding. The Holy Ghost is consistently quiet on that one.
No wonder mainstream Christians fail to understand the workings of the HG in their life. They are forced to depend on the wisdom of men and ignore the HG entirely.
Mormons benefit greatly from a more full spiritual life- and understand the Holy Spirit better BECAUSE they found witness on the true nature of God.
The orthodox Christian Father is a false God, created by 3rd century doctors. My elder brother Jesus- a true God. Get used to it man, it could haunt you for centuries.
Ralph’s attempt to indicate that he shares the same testimony of Jesus Christ as Falcon is really a misrepresentation of what Mormons believe about Jesus Christ and His role in redeeming mankind. Consequently, they then have a fallacious view of man’s role in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. You see, it’s not so simple as Ralph wants it to sound. He might really believe that his belief is the same as Falcon’s, but in the end, Ralph, as a Mormon, will add works righteousness to the salvation equation: Jesus Christ plus baptism, plus temple endowment, plus temple marriage, plus EVERYTHING else that would fall under the category of “…after all we can do.” So, it would be great if Ralph could just be honest about his true belief about Jesus Christ, which is: Jesus Christ merely puts us in the position to be able to earn salvation on our merits. Now, he will probably say that I can’t say what he believes. But, he would be wrong in that regard. I know how Mormonism works: I taught it, I lived it, I believed it with all my heart and soul. That’s the program. It’s a program that denies the power of Jesus Christ to save, and puts man in the position of being their own saviors and the saviors of others. If Ralph could say that he is saved by grace, justified by faith, and that his works will never impact his salvation, then I would agree that his testimony is the same as Falcon’s. Yes, it’s an issue of grace and works. It always boils down to this, because the gospel message is a message of God’s grace (see Acts 20:24). The Mormon message devalues God’s grace and puts the onus of salvation on the works of man. In the end, it is a false message that lacks true hope. It is a backwards theology.
Peace and Grace!
Jackg,
I never said that Falcon and my testimonies were the same or about the ‘same Jesus’. I was commenting on Falcon saying ‘he knows’ and him condemning the LDS for saying ‘we know’. That, my friend, is called hypocracy, regardless of whether it is the ‘same Jesus’ or a ‘different Jesus’.
Falcon,
Acts 5 does not support your statement of the Holy Spirit being God. If we substitute ‘government’ for ‘God’ and ‘taxman’ for ‘Holy Spirit’ we find that the person is lying to the government and the taxman. Are they one nad the same? No – the government is not the taxman and the taxman is not the government. The taxman is a representative of the government and lying to him is tantamount to lying to the government. So these verses do not support your statement as the Holy Spirit is a representative of God and lying to Him is tantamount to lying to God.
The last few verses you give (Matthew 3:16-17, Matthew 4:1-7, John 14:16, John 15:26, 2 Cor 13:14) do not indicate equality but that they assist/support each other when necessary. Matt 28:19-20 would be like saying in the name of ANZUS – which is Australian, New Zealand and US treaty. 3 countries which are totally separate but can be groupednamed as one because of the treaty.
Well at last, thanks to Jackg and Andy Watson, I think we have made our point with our Mormon friends. I do believe we now see the vast difference between what Mormons consider the spirit and what orthodox Biblical Christians mean when they talk about the Holy Spirit. We have also had demonstrated here the vast difference between Mormon salvation and Christian salvation. So Mormon boys, please get off this line of thinking, especially as regards the Holy Spirit, that it’s the same Spirit. Mormonism is a totally different religion having rejected the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as written about in the Scriptures, taught in the primitive Christian Church, summarized in the doctrinal creeds and proclaimed by the Church, the true mystical Body of Christ.
The spirit that our friend Cluff follows is not the Holy Spirit talked about in the Bible. Cluff tries to haul out the same old tired Mormon arguments that we have slammed dunked over and over again. Mormons have zero knowledge of the first four centuries of the Christian Church, and just keep repeating the same old tired out slogans and pithy little sayings that they learned down at the wards. Very tedious, but it’s all our Mormon friends have to offer.
Well it took almost a day of chasing Cluff around the mulberry bush regarding the spirit of Mormonism and the Holy Spirit, but I think any Mormon who has been lurking out there will certainly understand that the god of Mormonism is not the God of Biblical Christianity; the Son of God of Biblical Christianity and that of Mormonism are totally different and the Holy Spirit of Biblical Christianity bears no resemblance to what Mormons identify as the spirit.
So now it’s decision time. Our friends Cluff and Ralph are, quite frankly, stuck in Mormonism. For them to even consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ sends fear piercing through them. They’d have to risk losing their families and whatever status they hold within the Mormon culture.
It’s been an excellent day or so out here on Mormon Coffee. I am quite pleased. I’m hoping that the Mormon lurkers have gotten some very pertinent information that will move them forward in their decision to leave Mormonism. My hope is that because of the deception, cover-ups, and down-right spiritual abuse many of you have experienced, that you don’t forsake God as so many who have left Mormonism do.
So to complete the circle, how can someone tell if a religious group is on target or an aberrant cult. There are four very basic ways.
1. Do they claim “new” revelation. Any time anyone says “new” our spiritual ears should perk-up. Even within the Christian faith if someone tells me they have a “new” revelation, or a “new” word from the Lord, or a “new” teaching, I can just about bet that it’s something coming out of their own imagination. Now this is from someone who believes in the active operation of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as presented in First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14.
2. What is their view of the nature of God and specifically Jesus. With Jehovah Witnesses for example, Jesus is “a god” and actually Michael the Archangel. Aberrant and cultish groups claim a god that is not the God of the Bible.
3. Aberrant groups attack the Bible in some way. The Bible as given, is not considered “God breathed” as taught in the Scriptures.
4. The plan of salvation of aberrant cultish groups is altered where by salvation extended by God’s grace and received by faith is twisted in some unique and creative way.
Even Catholics, of which I was once one, who talk about “works” would not suggest that we can save ourselves by our works. I listened to Walter Martin debate a Jesuit on the topic one time and after about ten minutes I realized they were saying the same thing. I asked a Lutheran minister who has a Ph.D from Nortre Dame about it and he confirmed to me my impressions.
So that’s the quick and easy way to spot a cult.
I have a question –
If Jesus was simply our brother in the pre-existence, not God, or “a” God, then how did he come to earth and live a perfectly sinless life when every single one of his “brothers” (us) have failed time and time again.
If Jesus wasn’t more than just one of us, how did he accomplish this task?
Can a brother get an answer?
jeffery b:
Easy, he was God before he was born. Mormon doctrine is clear on that point. He was the God of the old testement- Jehovah. He also happens to be a spirit child of our Father in heaven, just like you and I.
jeffery b,
I would like to elaborate on Cluff’s confident response to you. Mormons believe that Jesus is equal with us in the fact that (in Mormon theology) we are all spirit children of our heavenly Father. This is called the premortal existence. They derive this doctrine from the Book of Revelation and the war in heaven between Lucifer and the archangel Michael (whom they believe to be Adam). Jesus progressed to godhood while in the premortal existence. You see, in that state, works righteousness theology was already alive and active; hence, the Mormon belief that we are born into the condition in which we find ourselves as a result of our obedience to God in this premortal state. This is how they justify the belief that Black people are black because they were cursed as the result of their apparent unfaithfulness in the PM state. It’s all pretty convoluted, but it’s their theology. Anyway, this is how Cluff can proclaim that Jesus was already God, and that you and I are spiritual children of our Heavenly Father just like Jesus. We see that this theology is amenable to the polytheistic approach the Mormons have about God–despite the fact that the Israelites were monotheistic in their beliefs and practices. So, we can see that Mormonism is another gospel, and is the result of what is called synchretism, the blending of pagan beliefs with true beliefs. This is why their language sounds a lot like Christianity, even though they are not Christians in the true sense of the word. They follow a Jesus who was not always God, just as the Father was not always God. This allows them to teach that man will become gods. The dangerous part is they proclaim this false message without any regard for what they are really saying. So, God has been put into what I refer to as the “Mormon Box.” They can control Him, manipulate Him, and bring Him down to the level of a fallen human being in need of redemption by His savior. They are blind to the red flags.
cont’d
This is how they arrive at the heretical teaching that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Then, they wonder why their claims of being Christians are rejected. They fail to understand God’s creation. They fail to understand the difference between angels, humans, and Deity. When so many things are messed up regarding a belief system, the only thing such believers can do is eisegete the biblical text, cry foul when their beliefs are challenged against God’s Word or when they are rejected as Christians, resort to persecution mode, bear their existential testimonies that defy biblical exegesis and logical reasoning (for them, the more illogical something is, the more true it must be), and accuse others of ignorance simply because we reject a false prophet and his teachings. It’s all very sad, really, and we ought to spend more time on our knees praying for them. They need us to understand that they are victims of a false prophet and a false religion, and that they don’t really know any better. My prayer for the Mormons is that they respond to the grace of God in their lives, as He is most assuredly working to redeem them through the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, so they can become partakers of the salvation that only the Work and Person of Jesus Christ can offer to a Fallen and broken humanity.
Peace and Grace!
GRCluff wrote “Easy, [Jesus] was God before he was born. Mormon doctrine is clear on that point. He was the God of the old testement- Jehovah. He also happens to be a spirit child of our Father in heaven, just like you and I.”
…so were the OT Israelites wrong in worshipping Jehovah? Maybe they should have worshipped Jehovah’s dad?
It seems that whole thing about there being One God – the One God whom we should worship (Ex 20:2-4), has passed our LDS friends by.
Anyway, I remember Ralph saying that the Heavenly Father (Jehovah’s dad) was the one that Mormons worship, which would put a “no-no” on the practise of worshipping Jehovah/Jesus.
Maybe our LDS posters need to swap notes before promoting their mutually exclusive views on what the LDS church teaches on this matter.
So Jesus did “all he can do” in heaven, married a Mormon woman up there and everything? That doesn’t make any sense..
One sad thing about the LDS religion is that they have a little of everything. Consider that there are two completely opposing views of the Garden of Eden in the Pearl of Great Price. This makes arguing doctrine with them useless because it is ALL both true and false. It also leaves them in a state where they just want to show up at church and hear whatever important news there may be from the pulpit (not that there’s ever any), because it’s only the pulpit who can make sense of it all, right? (hardly. I tried to use my bishops interview once to talk to the “expert” about my questions, and he really just drew a blank.)
ANDY
You really should get things right when you are trying to present anothers faith. While it is a small thing that you get wrong, if you can’t even get the small things right how can anyone believe you when you claim to know the big things.
Jesus was the first born spirit of God, but Lucifer was not the second, at least we do not know if he was. We only know he was one of the eldest, or a “son of the morning.” As to the Holy Ghost, again we do not know in what order he was born as a spirit, and never claimed to. All we know is that he was one of the greatest spirits in Heaven.
As to the difference between the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit: These two are the exact same. The Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the third member of the Godhead. The influence that you speak of is know as the “Light of Christ” and is generally spoken of as the conscience of man, the underlying influence in every man’s life that tells him the basics of right and wrong.
You then say “The Holy Spirit in me fills me, empowers me, instructs, convicts of sin, gives discernment and leads me into Truth. That Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Rom 8:16).” This is a perfect description of the LDS belief concerning the Holy Ghost and what he does. So here we are in complete agreement.
You also said “If our Mormon friends can support the LDS definitions above of their holy spirit and holy ghost with God’s Word (the Bible), then I’ll be happy to leave Christianity and follow Mormonism.” I have to say that this is a safe statement for you. No matter what I show you, you can always claim that I have misinterpreted, so you still don’t have to follow. It is an empty promise.
Yopu said “I have a testimony and it’s based on faith PLUS 2,000 years of facts and historical evidence.” I have a testimony based on the word of God, from him to me. I do not need 2,000 years of evidence from man, I have the personal assurance of God.
JACK and MARTIN
You really need to learn LDS doctrine before you try to twist it, as it only makes you sound silly.
We worship the Father as our God and Father, we worship Christ, or Jehovah, as our Savior. There is a difference. While both are God, both are not worship as God.
As to the Pre-existance, it is not only in Revelations that it is discussed, and if you really knew LDS doctrine, or even the Bible for that matter, you would realize this. Here is a small sample:
Job 38: 7 – We are told that all the sons of God shouted for joy when the Earth was created. As we are his sons (and daughters) it seems obvious it was us who was shouting.
Ecclesiastes 12: 7 – How can the spirit return to God if was not there before?
Jeremiah 1: 5, and Ephesians 1: 4 – He knew us before we were born.
John 9: 2 – How could this man be punished for sin with a birth defect if he did not live before (and notice that Christ does not take this prime oportunity to reject the possibility either).
Jude 1: 6 – Those who kept not their first estate.
Now, I actually would like some references in the Bible that state it is Heretical that Christ and Lucifer are brothers. This does not exist. No where does it say this. After all, Christ is also a Brother to Cain, to first murderer and to Hitler (all are descendants of Adam after all). So, show me where the Bible, which is the only real authority excepted by Christians (at least by my understanding), says that this is impossible and heretical.
SETFREE
What to conflicting accounts of the Fall in the Pearl of Great Price? I have never read more than one in that book (which is in Moses).
For example:
Moses 2:3 And I, God, said: Let there be light; and there was light.
vs
Abraham 4:3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light
I imagine that since Joseph Smith was trying to learn some Hebrew words at the time he wrote the PofGP, he was pretty confused over the word “elohim”.
SETFREE
The two verses you sight are not of the same story. In Abraham 4 the Gods are only planning the creation, they have not yet begun the work. In Moses 2 the work has begun.
Now, in Abraham 5 it does speak more along the lines you are speaking of. However, in Abraham 3: 23-24 we are told the actual work of creation was done by Christ and and the Noble and Great spirits who were in Heaven. So, chapter five, in speaking of the Gods doing these these, is speaking of overseeing the work, but not actual doing it.
This is also seen in Moses 2:1 when God says he created all things by the power of his only begotten, or Christ. Christ was the main worker, but God, or the Gods, were the overseers.
Another thing to point out is that in Moses God is telling the story, describing his work, while in Abraham it is Abraham telling us what he saw in a vision. Moses did not write what he saw, but what he heard. Abraham wrote what he both saw and heard.
As to the word Elohim or Eloheim, it is well known that this word is translated as “Gods” for El means God, and the ending of Him or Heim makes a word plural. I know there are scholars who claim that Eloheim is an exception, but there is no real foundation for this claim (even if the Jews also believe it).
Sorry, Cluff, but I’m not going to let you dismiss my comments as uninformed. I’m glad you think what I wrote sounds silly, because it is the doctrine of the LDS Church. Sometimes, I wonder how much you really know about the beliefs of the LDS Church. Teachings are heretical precisely because they are not found in the Bible. Your request is really on the ridiculous side. So, thank you Cluff for agreeing that Mormon doctrine is silly. It’s more than silly…it’s dangerous. Praying for you, Cluff, that you begin to have a desire for truth instead of folk theology.
Blessings!
falcon:
I think you have been interpreting your wishful thinking as truth again.
Lie #1
The spirit that our friend Cluff follows is not the Holy Spirit talked about in the Bible.
I find the Bible immersed with that spirit every time I read it, why would the Bible speak about another spirit that it cannot bring to my heart?
Lie #2
For them to even consider the Gospel of Jesus Christ sends fear piercing through them.
I think I addressed this issue earlier in the discussion. I said:
… but there is no fear involved, no rejection of any true God, just open acceptance of everything the Holy Sprit brings into my life.
How did you get from “no fear involved” to “fear piercing through them”?
Are you not listening? If you are so ready to replace my words with your own, what does that say about the rest of the “research” you present here? The same level of objective interpretation?
This goes way beyond arrogance- and tells me a lot about the reliability of your opinion.
Shem,
See http://www.isitso.org/guide/papyri.html
JACK
What is silly is your claim to know LDS doctrine when you frequently get it wrong.
SETFREE
I have seen all of this before, and it really doesn’t change my mind. However, what does this have to do with what I said. Can you prove that my explanation of teh two stories is not true and accurate? Can you prove that what I said concerning the meaning of the word Eloheim is not true?
This is what you had brought up, not the rather rediculous argument that the Book of Abraham isn’t a true translation. Answer the argument first given before you evade it by going to another.
As to all the proof, after careful thought to all that the critics have said I have seen a few flaws. I refrain from stating them here as it would take to long, and I see very little point. Let us first settle the supposed contradiction between Moses and Abraham, then we can deal with the rest of it.