“You can’t really administer the gospel in a life-changing way unless you also, like Paul always did, discern and expose and challenge the idols of your place… If you’re trying to communicate the gospel to anybody you need to know what their idols are, because the gospel is [that] you’re saved by grace, and the idol is that you’re saved by something else… Do you realize how many different forms of works salvation there are? ” – Timothy Keller
Jesus makes all of us uncomfortable.
For those who idolize a church, he calls us to be willing to leave it.
For those of us who have idolized the family that said they would leave us if we leave Mormonism and become a born-again Christian, he calls us to “hate” our family (Luke 14:26).
For those of us who idolize money, he calls us to sell everything we have and follow him.
For those of us who idolize our self-righteousness and pride, he calls us to reach a desperation and declare spiritual bankruptcy (Romans 4:4-5).
For those of us who idolize a nice and tidy top-down human structure that governs our lives, he calls us to endure and serve the messy Bride of Christ.
For those of us who idolize human authority, he calls us to rebuke them for their sins.
For those of us who idolize human relationships, he calls us to be lonely for a season.
For those of us who idolize the scoffing of those without truth, he calls us to learn compassion by getting intimately involved in others’ lives.
For those of us who idolize ourselves as gods-in-embryo, he calls us to worship the only God that will ever be.
For those of us who idolize food, he calls us to fast.
The gospel is about looking outside ourselves to trust the righteousness and exaltation and provision of another, Jesus Christ. Only then will we be made righteous, sanctified, and glorified.
Friends, the Lord is ready and willing to save you and to immediately forgive all your sins and give you eternal life! Declare spiritual bankruptcy and stop trying to earn your own forgiveness or prove your own worthiness. Stop worshiping a false God who was once a mere man before he became a God. Worship the God who always was, is, and will be God for all worlds. Stop showing up at the “temp agency” where you think you can earn your own wages with divine assistance, and instead show up at God’s gracious welfare office for free forgiveness and a transformed heart.
Jesus gets all the glory that way!
We might not agree on the issue of ad hominum. But I dont believe pointing out someone as a wolf is the same as ad hominum. because the Bible speaks of Wolves in Sheeps clothing.
Now Jason, about Joseph killing people, I honestly have no issue with self defense, I’m all for it, Just please explain two things.
1. Why do so many LDS quote from History of the Church like it’s fact, but when I or other Christians do, then were told it’s not trustworthy or was taken down incorrectly.
2. Why is it LDS claim Joseph went to the slaughter like Jesus. Jesus did not attack, defend himself or try and run away. Comparing Joseph to Jesus is a false account.
Then Joseph was surprised by the attack and his brother being killed, Jesus knew what was coming and went by His own free will to die for us. So your wrong.
Then as a side thought, how can you expect us to take you serious and believe you know what your talking about when you avoid question like crazy. You can pull the, I dont speak about certain Topics in public, But you also never tell us what these topics are you refuse to cover. Rick b
I finally took the time to listen to Tim Keller’s presentation, and I loved it. Thanks for posting it, Aaron, and for the beautiful commentary you wrote to accompany it.
To God be the Glory!
Setfree,
I don’t think anyone here has any idea about what it is like to be God, including those ‘enlightened’ LDS members that think they know everything (and I know a few). Is it about wanting to be the ‘boss’ or control? I doubt that is what it is about as that is not the aspect I look at it, but how can one define it/describe it when they can’t understand it now? But in answer to some of your questions – ” How many of us want to hear our little spirit brats saying “oh yeah, there is no god” and then saying “Oh God, save me” when they get in trouble. Do you want the job?” I have 3 very beautiful daughters whom I love very much, one is 14 turning 41 and highly intelligent. She also has a few problems as a teen (don’t they all). She has told me a number of times when things didn’t go her way that she hates me (actual word). Then after she has settled down or wants something she comes to me and asks for it, no apologies or explanations. I still love her despite this and I know she loves me, and I do what I can to fulfill her reasonable requests. I believe that that is how God works as we are His children and He loves us very much, and that will be how I will ‘run’ things with my children. Does that answer your question here?
As far as using Biblical references, I never use that verse you reference. I always use Romans 8:16-18, then Matt 28:18 with John 16:15 and couple them with Rev 3:21. Briefly – we are JOINT-HEIRS with Jesus; He received ALL POWER and EVERYTHING that The Father has; and if we endure to the end/overcome all we will SIT WITH JESUS ON GOD’S THRONE. But that’s my little spiel, my companion and I came up with on my mission in answer to questions by non-LDS.
Ralph wrote “I believe that that is how God works as we are His children and He loves us very much, and that will be how I will ‘run’ things with my children. Does that answer your question here?”
Ralph,
The experience of being a father tells you what it is to be like God (the Father). However, it does nothing to prove that you will be a ‘god’.
What are you going to do when your children start worshipping you?
Are you going to say to them “hey, there’s one who is greater than me and He is the one you should worship?” I tend to think that you would. However, we hear of no such statements from our Heavenly Father. The worship stops with Him (and Jesus, BTW).
Is He lying to us or withholding information from us? Shouldn’t He defer our worship to His heavenly Father?
And its no good saying “well, I’ll know what to do at the time”. You’ll be God, remember. You can do what you like and no-one will be in a position to challenge you…except, your Heavenly Father, but…oh, that’s making my head hurt just trying to figure it out.
Also, your isn’t your progression to god-hood based on who you are in this life? If you get your exaltation because of your present behaviour, what could possibly happen to change your behaviour when you are a god (and how can anything force God to change, but…oh, here comes that headache again)? If your behaviour and attitude don’t change, then you should be able to answer the question now.
Look again at Isaiah 44:6-8. The whole point is that God is God and no-one can change him or overturn his will. (In context, it says that if God has redeemed Israel, then there is no power that can challenge Him and un-redeem Israel). If God had a heavenly father, He’d be lying through his teeth here.
Ralph,
Can you give any Old Testament references that are God the Father, as opposed to God the Son? What are they?
Back to the topic of this thread… (Warning, if you are LDS, you won’t like this so just stop reading)
It seems to me that Joseph Smith was a little boy once, and if I had to guess based on what I’ve read of his and about him, I’d say he idolized his dad. Not more than himself, later, but at least at the first. Look at the evidence. Mason involvement like his dad. Treasure seeking, like his dad. When he came up with his biggest money making scheme yet… he wrote his dad’s dream into the very first few chapters.
Goes to show we should always confront our idols. Wanting to be like dad is not evil in itself, but if dad follows spirits, etc, then it certainly backfires. Enough to get the son into serious spirit/demon worship. I just barely remembered that that’s how he ended his book of Mormon… showing people how you can get an angel to visit you…
you guys, wanna be completely against God? just put yourself in a place where you are trying to have the power, where you are trying to get angelic visitation…
Ralph,
Your daughter has lived close to you all of your life, right?
What are you going to do when some of your children eat your others? sacrifice your other children to idols? rape, murder, torture for fun children like your daughter?
Will you allow free agency? will you destroy any spirit that refuses to make peace? how will you feel about that?
etc…
All,
This seems as an appropriate place as any to post this. For all those of you in “OZ”, the idol smasher Dr. James White is currently in the land down under. Currently (I believe) he is in Sydney and will head to Brisbane. I wish I were there and not just to here Dr. White. You can see his itinerary at http://www.aomin.org. Dr. White has spoken at events with Bill McKeever if any were wondering. He will be addressing several issues while in OZ, but I think Islam is one of the bigger idols to be smashed.
Aaron said: “And when asked, you refused to disclose your religious commitments.”
This isn’t the right place for me to do it.
Good luck and God Bless to everyone here. I’ve enjoyed the discussion. Bye!
Doc Said
It’s the right place if A Mod asks a point blank question, It’s the wrong place to be if you cannot defend lies and hate hearing the truth, So Good bye. Rick b
Ralph,
I will give you this; you appear to be one of
the more upfront LDS that I’ve heard from.To
hear you reply to Kevin that one day you’ll be
able to create other worlds is something I have
seldom heard LDS honest enough to admit.
I know you mentioned that you try and focus on
God’s glory,but if you care to briefly explain
to me what it is like to believe that one day
you’ll be an Almighty God and create other
planets/worlds etc.
Ralph and Maybe other LDS,
I will not be on line tomorrow at all that should give you guys time to find answers to my questions, I will be looking forward to HONEST, LOL, Cough, Excuse me, answers on Monday. Rick b
Ralph wrote “As far as using Biblical references, I never use that verse you reference. I always use Romans 8:16-18, then Matt 28:18 with John 16:15 and couple them with Rev 3:21.”
Just in case anyone is wondering about getting a response on these scriptures, I’d really like to get into a discussion about the Biblical (and ancient middle-eastern) perspective on inheritance, how it shapes the language of these scriptures, and what the Biblical authors were saying through them.
However, I’ve yet to see a meaningful response to some of the Ev queries posted above, so I’ll wait a bit longer.
Martin,
Thanks for the above, and also for finding the verse I was looking for.
I was wanting to address Ralph’s verses as well, and am looking forward to what you are going to write about them. But I am willing to be patient as well, and hope some ev questions will be answered.
Martin said,
Setfree said
Being honest here, not funny, but this is an age old problem, LDS here and on fairlds and even in person seem to have trouble answering questions.
I have said many times, If your Prophet speaks for God, why not go to the Prophet point out all these issues and ask for honest responses from God.
Sadly LDS will make many excuses as to why thats not possible, but yet God wants to see us come to Him and be saved, so why would God not answer theses questions through the prophet?
Also since the Prophet will not or cannot go to God with these question, then you would think God would know this stuff is causing problems and simple speak to the Prophet and say, here are the answers to these questions people have. Go before them and say to them, Thus saith the Lord, The Lord spoke to me and is giving answers to the questions people have.
Sadly LDS will make excuses like, Not everyone will listen anyway so thats why it wont happen. Yet thats a cop out excuse and shows LDS judging our hearts. God knows that while not every person will listen, He knows Many would and then every one would clearly be with out excuse.
Why is it we would not listen here and now, but LDS seem to believe we will listen and believe after were dead? Just an honest answer to an honest question. Rick b
Martin,
Here’s the deal, Mormons are not Biblical scholars. They ebb and flow off of personal and/or corporate revelation. Revelation in their world rules. To them, it’s superior to the Bible because they’re hearing directly from the Mormon god. Mormons play fast and loose with Biblical interpretation. In fact they get all upset because we insist that they be systematic and logical and follow some basic rules of interpretation. It’s really no fun for them coming here and being held accountable.
Mormonism can’t be found in the Bible; not even in a subtle manner. That’s why we get all this goof ball assertions that due to a dastardly plot, all of the Mormon stuff got left out of the Bible; you know polytheism, polygamy, first century temples, the priesthood, men becoming gods, god having once been a man and on and on. There is no Biblical support for Mormonism. My favorite line is from Walter Martin when he’d say “you’d can only find that if you torture the Scriptures” and that’s what Mormons do. They twist themselves into pretzels to make it work and in the end they believe Mormonism because they want to not because there’s any evidence for it.
This is my first time on the board, and a lot has been covered above, but moving to the last posts in the thread: LDS cannot defend their faith from any of their standard works because they are a mass of confusion. The “Church” is the idol, as it is ever changing to meet the needs of men seeking the honor of men. Read Matthew 6. I tell you, they have their reward.
The BOM is supposed to be the most perfect book ever written and contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel. But in it we find nothing of the detailed contents of the Pentateuch, which makes the vicarious sufferings and sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ make sense. The book of Hebrews chapter 7 tells us the OT sacrifices and the Levitical/Aaronic system were a shadow of things to come, a picture of Christ’s sacrifice. Christ is our King, Savior, and High Priest all in one. It also tells us that the Aaronic priesthood was never effectual to cover individual sins with the blood of bulls and goats, and is therefore no longer necessary after Christ’s sacrifice. Nothing is mentioned of the Aaronic priesthood in the BOM because the Nephites were descendents of Joseph, therefore Ephraimites, not Levites, and unable to perform priestly service. Thew would have considered it an abomination to build a second temple, which was not located in God’s city Jerusalem. JS of course knew nothing of this when he wrote his book.
The BOM does not even support modern LDS doctrine. It speaks nothing of endowment ceremonies, plural marriage (in fact it calls it an abomination), sealings for time and eternity, etc. So what we see in modern LDS doctrine is the outgrowth of the desire for power and sexual liason of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc.
Latter revelations in the Pearl of Great Price are now known to be false revelations based upon JS’s imagination as he could not really translate Egyptian.
Yet they mock God’s word as corrupted Hellenistic trash….
liv4jc,
Welcome to Mormon Coffee. I enjoyed your well reasoned, passionate and informative post. Please post here often.
Everything in Mormonism revolves around Joseph Smith and subsequent to him, the Mormon males quest to become a god. If he isn’t “true”, the whole deal falls a part. As Christians, we measure what he did, said, and taught against the standard scripture of the faith, the Bible. If someone believes in Joseph Smith; if they have invested emotionally in his claims and in his “integrity” as a person, they will do whatever is necessary to justify their commitment. It’s just too difficult to give it up. Joseph Smith is an idol for Mormons; as is their current prophet, as is the Mormon church, as is the priesthood, as is the belief that men will become gods.
As Christians, we place our hope in Jesus Christ and his finished work of the Cross. Everything is about Jesus and what he did to save us and provide us with eternal life. There isn’t anything in our faith that makes us the focal point. We know our “works” are as filthy rags in regards to our salvation. Jesus paid the price for us. He took the penalty on Himself that through faith in Him, we might enjoy the blessings of the Father. Any “crowns” that we earn, we throw at the feet of the One, eternal, everlasting God. Our works are to praise him in gratitude for what He did for us.
Ephesians 1:3-6 tells us: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the kind intention of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace”.
liv4jc, amen to what falcon said,
and falcon, that was a nice comment.
to quote my favorite pastor: “[T]alk about how, when people do things, God will do this for them, God will do that for them–that pleases men because it makes them feel like they contributed, they have done something. But talk about Grace, where everything is of Jesus and …makes nothing of human achievement, and you see proud people will get angry, like they did in Nazareth…”
liv4jc, since this thread is about idolatry do you agree with this description of God as explained by your fellow evangelicals on this board:
” I don’t know what God looks like, and won’t pretend to guess. If he’s a hideuous 8 headed creature with 70 eyes and spider like legs, does that make him less of a God? I don’t think so, and nor should you. ”
Sounds like a pretty hideous idol to me. Just answer if you agree to it or condemn it as heresy.
Other evs, I already know what you think so please let liv4jc answer for himself. TIA
Falcon,
Excellent synopsis of how Jesus is our infinite
“all in all”. One of my favorite verses:
“Wherefore He is able also to save them TO THE
UTTERMOST that come unto God by him,seeing he
ever livest to make intercession for them. ”
Heb.7:25
If anyone worships anything other than the clearly defined Biblical God, they are worshiping an idol. The false god, the idol of Mormonism, is a man who progressed to becoming a god. What absolute foolishness. When we discuss Biblical interpretation, folks will interpret the Bible through the lens of who they see God as being. That’s why Mormons consistently misinterpret Biblical text; they don’t know the God who is revealed by that very text. Mormons may as well not even refer to the Bible but instead depend on the roller coaster flow of dubious revelation that has emanated from their various false prophets over the years.
God sends His grace that men might know Him and receive the gift of eternal life that He alone can offer. But in order to receive this gift, men must know Him. All other “gods” are impostors. Mormonism has created not “a god” but countless gods numbering in the millions perhaps billions. The pride of Lucifer is alive and well in the Mormon male who believes he will also become one of these gods. By not responding to the grace offered by the One and only living God and the message of salvation, Mormons have separated themselves from Him, choosing to believe a lie.
In the Book of Romans, the apostle Paul writes: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man…
Martin,
Aaron asked me some of these questions in a blog a few months ago. The honest answer is I don’t know how I’d react, especially because I have never thought about it. I would expect that if they are my children then I would expect them to call me ‘father’ as I call my God. I do not know of the ‘requirements’ of the planets that I would create – ie whether they would be like this earth with a tempter and a Saviour, or if they would be paradise without any of this set-up. And so on and so forth.
As far as none greater than God – that is true. He created this world, He is omniscient and omnipotent, there is no other ‘god’ (including His Father) who rules over this universe that He has created. Even so, He has the same power and knowledge as His Father, so they are equal on that basis – the only ‘inequality’ between them is that His Father has more progeny and universes (‘increase’ in the LDS scriptures) than Him. So for this universe, we only have one God to deal with who created it all and rules it all and that is Whom we worship and glorify as our God and there is none greater than Him in or for this universe.
When it comes to your scenario of God’s Father ‘challenging’ Him because He wants to do something ‘wrong/different’, re-read the LDS theology. It states that the Godhead (ie Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost) are ‘one’ because they are of one mind, goal and purpose. This will be the same of everyone who enters the CK – their goal will be to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of the newly created spirits. So there will be no arguments, etc over the larger picture. It’s the small things like what colour to make the sky, or how large to make the strawberries, etc, but no arguments or ‘pulling up’ someone.
But that is my opinion, we really do not know much about how it’s going to be right now.
The unrighteousness cited above refers to the sin of pride. By making themselves a future object of worship and adoration, Mormon men are attempting to coop for themselves the honor, glory and praise due only to the One, eternal and everlasting God. In the Mormon paradigm of millions and billions of gods, what we have is a total free-for-all and lack of acknowledgment of God. Orson Pratt went so far as to say if Mormons worship one god, they worship them all. This ignores the OT admonishment of God that He will have no other “gods” before Him. It is a basic fundamental principle of the Christian faith that God be acknowledged as God (“I am”) and that all other “gods” be forsaken.
The history of Israel, up until the Babylonian captivity, is the story of a people who would go to the high places and worship the false gods of their heathen neighbors. Then a righteous king would over throw these high places and call the people to repent of their worship of the false gods represented by idols of various forms. Following the Babylonian Captivity, God’s people had their bellies full of false gods and idols. Never again were they enticed to follow after false gods.
Mormons have failed to learn the lesson the Hebrews learned while in Babylon. By raising up other gods who are by their own description, glorified men, Mormons have seen fit to usurp the rightful place of God. Mormons need to repent of this and cast aside their god-men and come to the living God who alone can provide eternal life.
Falcon,
“If anyone worships anything other than the clearly defined Biblical God, they are worshiping an idol.”
Is it so clearly defined? Jews reject Jesus and the N.T. because it doesn’t agree with with their religion and the description of god and the messaiah as they understand it.
Perhaps the most troubling thing is the idea of the ‘god-man’ jesus, being begotten by god. On a jewish wepage they compared this to various pagan heros who were fathered by a god. In the jewish view, god is a spirit only. To think of god becoming human is ridiculous.
There is also a definate connection between the story of jesus in the N.T. and a number of solar deities. Zeitgeist the movie has an excellent description of the solar nature of ‘jesus’, which is actually a sythnethis of pre-existing gentile solar dieties. The movie is quite long, and goes into social and political connections with religion.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197
St. Crispin stated the following:
Your false idol preaches the satanic doctrine of cheap grace.
I have to agree with this, but I know there must be a debate on the following, so please I would love to know how many believe in the cheap grace of
Do Babies Automatically go to Heaven?
By: K. B. Napier
Why? Well, saying that someone (albeit a child) can enter heaven without knowing salvation, immediately flies in the face of election and the requirements of salvation set down by the Lord Himself. Only those who are elect will be saved. Those who are saved must hear the Gospel preached and must know regeneration and repentance. We are told that these elements are absolutely necessary for salvation, and that salvation is absolutely necessary for one to enter heaven. Yet, believers in children going to heaven simply because they are children who have not reached the age of responsibility, say they enter heaven (a) because they are not responsible, and (b) because God foreknew they would have been saved if they had lived long enough! This latter pretext is an alarming lack of reformed judgement.
Continued.
What is wrong with these two pretexts. Well, firstly, they are pretexts devised to uphold a human theory, and not actual Biblical teachings. Secondly, even a child in the womb is held accountable by Almighty God. We see a tiny bundle of joy and have an emotional attachment to a child even before it is born. Obviously, we want the very best for our children and shudder to think they might not be saved. This is where many fail in their judgement (the same happens in the case of the very old – when mere greatness of age somehow transforms a person into an angelic being, even if he or she was a terrible sinner when younger!). We approach this subject with our emotions. God does not. He cannot, because God is not emotional! He has no human emotions, though He certainly understands them. His state is perfect and without emotional liability. Our state is flawed and sinful, and very often we cannot ‘think straight’ because of our emotions.
Regards, Richard 🙂
Jason Rae, the other Christians were obviously being fecicious. Their intent was to convey the fact that they don’t care what God looks like. He is still God. This hardly rises to the level of heresy, like say, believing that Jesus is the literal offspring of an exalted man and an (I would have to assume) an exalted woman? Who being in Heaven with God, along with all of us (King Follet discourse tells us that we are the same species as God and co-eternal with him and were not created by him or any other god. Our god was just smarter than us and obtained godhood and called the heavenly council, which we all attended, where Jehovah gave his plan of salvation. There goes the offspring of heavenly parents doctrine. Oops, forgot to purge that speach of Ol’ Joe’s.), was the co-creator with God the Father as the spririt Jehovah (Oh and also the angel Michael and possibly John the Baptist and maybe some of the other apostles depending on which version of the creation story you went to the temple under). Jehovah must have already somehow gained the level of godhood given he had the ability to create the earth and man to populate it (not so sure how all that works out given the fact that the prophet Brigham Young taught that our God was Adam, who would have been created by his yet unborn son Jehovah, before he obeyed all the laws of his god, became our god, and had spirit children, Jehovah being the first before Lucifer). Never-the-less, Jehovah decided that he was going to come to earth (after good ol’ dad had sex with one of his other incarnated daughters to give him a body. Wow, that’t creepy.) and live a perfect life to either show us how it’s done, give us the opportunity to gain eternal bodies for ourselves after we prove ourselves worthy (even though he came about 4,000 years too late for everyone who lived before him), or pay for our sins, but not through substitutionary atonement,…more like a transfer of debt from dad to brother with the same credit terms. Heresy.
But seriously, I would expect God to look exactly how the bible says He looks: Exactly like Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:4 tells us that Christ is the image of God. Colossians 1:15 tells us that Jesus is the exact image (the Greek word is “eikon” which is used to describe plates used for stamping coins, thereby making an exact representation) of God. But reading closer it says Jesus is the image of the “invisible God”. In John 4:24 Jesus tells us that God is “spirit”. 1 Timothy 1:17 Paul says, “to the King, eternal, immortal, “invisible”, to God who alone is wise…” So God is invisible and spirit. In John 14:7 and 9 Jesus tells Philip that if he has seen Jesus, he has seen the Father. Revelation 1:13-16 says, “and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.” This is the exalted Jesus that John saw. But what did Daniel and Ezekiel see? Daniel 7:9 “I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool.” In Daniel 7:13 one “like the Son of Man” approaches the throne. This is a vision of Christ as he is given dominion. Sounds a lot like the Jesus of Revelation 1 doesn’t it. Ezekiel 1:26-28 tells us that he saw the image of Yahweh’s glory on the throne. God is again described in Revelation 4 as being seated on His throne. He appears much like the image in Ezekiel, and the image of the slain lamb takes the scroll from Him, but his attributes in verse 11 are the same as those of Jesus in Colossians 2:15-17.
Ralph,
Thanks for your response. Thanks also for the honesty in acknowledging your opinion – I’ll try to respond in kind.
There are more than a few aspects of the Mormon/LDS argument on eternal progression that I find troubling, but I’ll stick with a shortlist for now.
Firstly, the argument is based on our experience. You say (and other Mormons have said the same) that we know God has a heavenly father because we have an earthly father.
That’s not a bad argument of itself, but it falls apart when you try to answer the question “what is it like to be a God who is worshipped by his children”. As you indicated with your earlier reply, you can’t answer that question based on your experience. No Mormon has.
You could counter by saying that God’s experience of being God is utterly different from ours, but that completely defeats the purpose of the doctrine, which tells that God was once just like us. It seems you want to have it both ways.
Secondly, all the arguments supporting eternal progression that I’ve heard are based on deductive reasoning, but all the arguments against are based on the Bible. What does that tell you about where you get your “revelations” from? Shouldn’t the Word of God have the final say here?
Finally (for now), the henotheism you suggest falls apart on the issue of worship. Why should I worship God, when there is one who is greater than God whom I could worship? You assume that these Gods cooperate with each other, but where’s the evidence? In fact, when you look at the Bible from a henotheistic view, the evidence suggests the contrary; in particular God killing his son to stop him making outrageous claims like Isaiah 44:24.
I’ve heard it said from ex-Mos that Mormons view Jesus as a kind of tutor or elder brother. It worries me that you don’t worship Jesus as the apostles did in Luke 24:52 etc. In fact, given that you’re playing a game of catch-up with God, I wonder if you truly know what it is to worship Him at all.
liv4jc,
I liked your posts.
In his book “Knowledge of the Holy” A.W.Tozer writes the following on p. 1:
“O Lord God Almighty, not the God of the philosophers and the wise but the God of the prophets and apostles; and better than all, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, may I express Thee unblamed? They that know Thee not may call upon Thee as other than Thou art, and so worship not Thee but a creature of their own fancy; therefore enlighten our minds that we may know Thee as Thou art, so that we may perfectly love Thee and worthily praise Thee.”
We can apply the section of Tozer’s prayer “That they know Thee not may call upon Thee as other than Thou art, and so worship not Thee but a creature of their own fancy….” to the idol that Mormons worship as god. Mormons have made a bad trade in forsaking God for a man that’s just a little better than themselves. The most revealing thing about a religion, is her idea of God.
Tozer says that we can predict the spiritual future of someone by their answer to the question, “What comes into your mind when you think about God?” Having a right concept of God is basic not only to a person’s systematic theology but to practical living as well. There is scarcely an error in doctrine that cannot be traced to imperfect thoughts about God.
Mormons, with their low view of God, have destroyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ and substituted a false gospel and a false god; an idol. There isn’t a sin someone can commit that is more hateful to God than idolatry. Idolatry libels the very character of God.
Tozer says, “Wrong ideas about God are not only the fountain from which the polluted waters of idolatry flow; they are themselves idolatrous. The idolater simply imagines things about God and acts as if they were true.” Tozer says perverted notions of God soon rot the religion in which they appear. He states further, “The masses of adherents come to believe that God is different from what He actually is; and that is heresy of the most insidious and deadly kind.
liv4thealien said:
” the other Christians were obviously being fecicious. Their intent was to convey the fact that they don’t care what God looks like. He is still God. “
I take it you meant “facetious” as in humorous? Well, you would be wrong. Do you think the evs are being funny when they say God is genderless as well liv4jc? Is that just a funny saying too? And is everybody laughing when they say God is a non-human species and therefore an ‘alien’? It is obvious that the door is open for the possibility for the ev God to have 8 heads and 70 eyeballs. Or why else would one even approach that idea in conversation?
I appreciate the scriptures you cite about God but can you tell us in your own words liv4 what God would look like if you saw it today?
liv4jc, have you met Jason yet? he lies for the cause of Joseph Smith. he also likes attention.
I would like to encourage any and everyone here to purchase (I think you can get it for about $7 on Amazon) and read the book that has been referenced a couple of times lately: A.W.Tozer’s “A Knowledge of the Holy”. I think it was that book that best and most quickly helped me get out of the Mormon-mindset about God.
Jason, the God of Christianity made all matter, has absolutely no eyeballs fundamental to his existence, and is described in the Bible as “invisible” and “spirit”. He is “alien” in the sense of being of a different invisible all-powerful, all-knowing species, but not “alien” in the sense of being a strange finite material species that we see in Sci-Fi movies.
If you want to get your kicks by reading about creatures with multiple eyes, then read Revelation.
Jason, I get a kick out of you, you know that? As the author of that post you love to quote, I have to say liv4jc’s response was dead on as to my intent, and you have been told this several times now.
It is interesting how he knew exactly what my intent was without ever meeting me. Maybe he had read my response way back, but I doubt it given that it was way back and lost in the maze of old posts. So, that he saw my intention speaks volumes to the point, and to the unity we have in the faith. We worship God, and God alone. Christ, as God, is the head of our church, and is our all in all.
Your obsession with the physical nature of God is very interesting. I think you shold spend more time thinking about what God can do for you rather than what he looks like.
Novatian said, “God has no origin” and it is this concept that distinguishes God from whatever is not God. Novatian hit the nail on the head and as we can see, the idol of the man who became god of the Mormons, has a beginning. Not only that but the Mormon idol-god was a sinful man, he had parents as well as grandparents and great grandparents. The Mormon idol is not, as is God, unchangeable (there is absolute constancy within the being of God).He has immutability, that is God will never be different than He has always been. God is omnipresent. The totality of God is everywhere, and nothing is beyond the bounds of His being. (Psalm 139:7-10) God is omniscient. He knows everything. He is omnipotent. He is all-powerful, and He possesses the ability to do anything that is consistent with His own nature. God is always with us (eternality) He is not limited by time. (Deuteronomy 33:27)
Contrast God with whatever people make out to be an idol in their lives, and is unimaginable why someone would trade the awesome everlasting God for an illusion. In the case of Mormons, it’s all about sinful pride. In reality, the devil isn’t all that clever. All he has to do is appeal to this pride and for some, the deal is closed.
Jason, was my post not clear enough for you? I would see God exactly as Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and John saw Him. I would see Him exactly as he chooses to manifest Himself to man. He has been described in scripture. His throne is otherwordly and His majesty is beyond description. Those who encounter Him in visions are struck with awe, fear, and reverence. Men struggle to find earthly attributes to describe Him. His form is like that of a man, but brilliant, taking on luminous qualities of reflective metals and precious stones. Those in His presence continually cry Holy, Holy, Holy and obey his commandments immediately (review the chariot of his throne in Ezekiel 1). He gives us no latitude anywhere in scripture to believe that He has ever been anything other than what He has always been-The Everlasting God (Isaiah 43:10).
As to gender, God has always been described as, and has always presented Himself as “He”, Father, and Son. In describing the Holy Spirit in John 14 Jesus says, “The Spirit of Truth, “He” is coming.” The first person was also created as a male and was given dominion over the creation and the first woman, Eve. However, God is not human, and never has been, therefore has no need of gender for mundane things like reproduction. He presents Himself as a male in scripture so I don’t speculate beyond that. Is speculation about God’s “true” gender heresey? No.
Hey Sharon and Aaron, I say boot Jason off the Board. He clearly refuses to answer questions, this has been proven many times, and the quote he keeps tossing out about God with many Eyes, we have had the Original poster of that quote deal with him on it, He tried telling me I had to either believe it was true or to condemn the guy for saying it, yet His Prophets teach things he refuses to speak on.
He clearly as one poster said, keeps beating the same drum over and over. Seriously I have had private talks via Email about other trouble makers, and I dont recall ever saying, kick these guys off. I have no problems taking on the trouble makers because all but Jason at least understand what I’m saying and either move on because they cannot handle the truth or run away, Not Jason, he refuse to move past this one verse and it was from a topic weeks ago.
I say if he is willing to move on then maybe keep him, but for now he keeps shoving this upon everyone and claims one believer was speaking for everyone and even Ralph has had to speak to Jason, One LDS rebuking another, How sad. Rick b
Funny place to post this but I’d like to say that I’ve enjoyed interacting with and actually meeting some of the MC family. Last Friday I traveled up to Kevin’s area and we played golf which indicated to me that golf will never be an idol for me. I did, however, introduce Kevin to creative score keeping. I’ve also had the opportunity to meet Sharon and Rick B. face to face; Sharon in her unnamed geographic area and Rick when he stopped by on the way back from a vacation. I actually got to meet Rick’s wife and kids also. Andy Watson and I talk often by phone and “Ward” and jackg communicate with me regularly by e mail.
I’m closing in on two years on MC and although it will never become an idol for me, it may border on some type of addiction; kind of like biking and guitar playing (have become). I’ve learned a lot from my MC friends and I’ve really been impressed with the depth of knowledge, commitment and their ability to express themselves.
I just thought this might be a good time and place to drop this in.
Falcon,
You quoted, (Deuteronomy 33:27)
“27 The eternal God is your dwelling place,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
And he thrust out the enemy before you
and said, Destroy. ”
Who is the enemy?
falcon, I have a big smile on my face!
Falcon, I liked your way of score keeping. 🙂 I should be PGA eligible by next week!
Seriously, it was a great time.
Rick B, I can appreciate your frustration in regards to Jason, but I want to share a short testimony with you.
I was raised in a Jehovah’s Witness family until I was about 8 years old. I loved Jehovah and “His Organization”. My father was an elder, and my grandparents and aunts and uncles were all JW’s. We had moved away from family and one Sunday we didn’t go to the meeting. Next thing I knew we were celebrating Christmas and birthdays. As I got older my father told me we left the JayDubbs because it was a cult. Because we left the JW org. most of my family disowned us. I was really hurt by that and began to hate God and religion. My father never reined me in and in a way supported my agnosto-atheism. Long-story-short I got saved at about age 31. I began to give my dad the gospel. My father shined me on and told me that he believed what I was telling him and we even discussed the bible quite often. But he never showed any fruit, and eventually I only gave him and mom the gospel on rare occasions. Then, about 4 months ago I gave a call and he told me he was reading John. No big deal. Whatever…I blew it off. Before I know it he’s telling me that he met an ex-JW turned Christian. My dad tells me about meeting this guy, and says, “It was like a light turned on. Jesus is God! And salvation is free. It’s a gift!” My response was, “I know dad. I’ve been telling you that for years.” Dad and Mom are now both soundly saved. It wasn’t me who did it, even though I gave them the same info many times. It was meeting someone who knew where they were coming from and spoke their language.
We don’t know what God has in store for Jason, or someone else who reads a response to one of his posts. But I know that every Christian on this board sincerely prays for God to turn the light on in Jason’s head, even though we may play a little rough sometimes. Their blindness is frustrating, but we were blind once, too.
liv4JC wrote “My dad tells me about meeting this guy, and says, “It was like a light turned on. Jesus is God! And salvation is free. It’s a gift!”.
What a fantastic story! Good for you. Good for your mom and dad, too! Good for the whoever-it-was who said whatever-it-was that clicked the switch!
Regarding Jason, as I wrote to Hank, he puts forward a far more convincing argument than I could ever make. I hope he keeps on posting here.
liv4jc,
Very compelling account of your journey and that of your parents. What’s that about “planting, watering, and harvesting” the Bible talks about? One of my favorite parables is the Sower and the Seed. I’ve meditated on those words of Jesus quite a bit. I particularly think about the different kinds of soil mentioned. We encounter some “hard” soil here on MC with regards to some of our Mormon posters, but we have to remember the folks who come here with genuine questions, who read, but don’t post.
It’s difficult for us to comprehend why someone would reject God in favor of a substitute, an idol, that has no power to save them. With some folks, of course, it’s the power of the flesh that clouds their spiritual receptors. For others it may be a form of religion that is like an inoculation; there’s just enough “god” in it to prevent them from spiritually understanding who God is and what He is offering them through His Son Jesus Christ. Religious pride is a lot like the “moral” man that Paul describes in the Book of Romans. This haughtiness attempts to ascend up to God and in effect, this “god-wanna-be” program becomes an idol.
People are leaving Mormonism in droves today. Unfortunately many have become so embittered by the Mormon religion that they reject God and become atheists. According to liv4jc he went that route as did I at one time. But God through His living Word sent people to me who were willing to share Christ with me despite my open hostility. What causes some to respond and others to continue down the path to spiritual destruction? It’s hard to say, but we know that our task is to keep throwing out those seeds regardless of the type of ground they fall on.
liv4jc, I appreciate your testimony and concern but the past 3 or 4 weeks have been eye-opening for me in terms of learning significant ev doctrine on the nature of God, nature of man, eternal destiny etc etc.
I had already figured out the fascism connection last year and was absolutely blown away when I slowly lifted the cosmic fingerprints off your theology. I was stunned. I told my wife, mother-in-law, family and friends, laid it all out in black and white and no one could refute it. This un-masking of the object of ev worship was put together like a dot-to-dot picture over several months and when the last line was connected the figure staring back at me was dreadful and appaling.
On top of all the extrememly disturbing things I discoverd about who and what the ev God is, you guys offer no real code of conduct for life. Theology has to be practical and natural and of necessity include some level of temporal salvation in order to condition and prepare one for the afterlife. A strong code of conduct and ethics can create great happiness here that will naturally carry into the eternal world. I find none of that in ev doctrine but rather a very magical world-view where this giant thing out in space creates ‘subjects’ by fiat and has a penchant for torture but yet offers a capricious hand of “salvation” for those that acknowldege its greatness.
Everything you guys imagine the afterlife to be falls right in line lock-step with the absolute Hell of tyranny that has been the hallmark of this world. The history of the world has been dictatorships and torture. Heaven must be different.
I propose a new fish symbol to symbolize the ev exit from tyranny and fascism. One that is swimming away, as fast as it can go from the false God of the creeds:
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸>
Jason Rae – Leader of No One
My fish didn’t quite come over, must be the Unicode characters. One more time:
¸.·´¯`·.´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸>
It looks quite cool in Unicode. Just imagine a fish swimming really really fast.
Jason, have you been engaging us so long and you still don’t understand that our God is fundamentally outside of space and time? This phrase of yours, “giant thing out in space”, only confirms to me that you’re just trying to squeeze sensationalism out of misleading phrases.