How the Gospel Confronts Idolatry

“You can’t really administer the gospel in a life-changing way unless you also, like Paul always did, discern and expose and challenge the idols of your place… If you’re trying to communicate the gospel to anybody you need to know what their idols are, because the gospel is [that] you’re saved by grace, and the idol is that you’re saved by something else… Do you realize how many different forms of works salvation there are? ” – Timothy Keller

Jesus makes all of us uncomfortable.

For those who idolize a church, he calls us to be willing to leave it.

For those of us who have idolized the family that said they would leave us if we leave Mormonism and become a born-again Christian, he calls us to “hate” our family (Luke 14:26).

For those of us who idolize money, he calls us to sell everything we have and follow him.

For those of us who idolize our self-righteousness and pride, he calls us to reach a desperation and declare spiritual bankruptcy (Romans 4:4-5).

For those of us who idolize a nice and tidy top-down human structure that governs our lives, he calls us to endure and serve the messy Bride of Christ.

For those of us who idolize human authority, he calls us to rebuke them for their sins.

For those of us who idolize human relationships, he calls us to be lonely for a season.

For those of us who idolize the scoffing of those without truth, he calls us to learn compassion by getting intimately involved in others’ lives.

For those of us who idolize ourselves as gods-in-embryo, he calls us to worship the only God that will ever be.

For those of us who idolize food, he calls us to fast.

The gospel is about looking outside ourselves to trust the righteousness and exaltation and provision of another, Jesus Christ. Only then will we be made righteous, sanctified, and glorified.

Friends, the Lord is ready and willing to save you and to immediately forgive all your sins and give you eternal life! Declare spiritual bankruptcy and stop trying to earn your own forgiveness or prove your own worthiness. Stop worshiping a false God who was once a mere man before he became a God. Worship the God who always was, is, and will be God for all worlds. Stop showing up at the “temp agency” where you think you can earn your own wages with divine assistance, and instead show up at God’s gracious welfare office for free forgiveness and a transformed heart.

Jesus gets all the glory that way!

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206 Responses to How the Gospel Confronts Idolatry

  1. Jason Rae says:

    With all due respect Aaron I honestly don’t know how else to explain the very big larger than everything ev God. I don’t know the proper term to put on something that is invisible, doesn’t have the power to reproduce its own species and it totally and completely outside of human nature and comprehension.

    It’s not really a slight but rather a grasping for words.

  2. Rick B says:

    The Only way I play is Rough, So rough is not a problem for me. I want to see Jason get saved and never said it could not happen. I have seen other LDS booted for about the Same or maybe even less.

    Then I said, as for Jason, if he replys then go for it, but yet he refuses to answer questions, he runs away, we/I call him on it, then he says what were they again I will do my best, but then never does. Or he says, well their are some questions I simply refuse to talk about in public, but never tell us what they are.

    Then even though it has been explained to him Over and Over and Over again, he keeps going back to a Christian who said I am not sure what God looks like, but EVEN IF HE looked like this, then he is still God. Then Jason beats everyone over the head with it saying this guy is speaking Gospel Truth and either we believe it or we need to call him a heretic.

    Yet Jason is being so Dishonest on this that it’s not even funny. The Guy never said it was Gospel truth and he was only speaking for himself.

    Yet when the LDS prophets say, this is Doctrine and your salvation hangs upon it, Jason Refuses to reply about those questions. Outside of that, I never said before to boot any body that I recall, and it’s very dishonest of Jason to act the way he is, but then tell everyone he knows the truth. How can you know the truth if all you do is lie? Rick b

  3. Michael P says:

    Rick, as the guy who made that comment about God, which I still hold to worshipping him no matter what he looks like, I find it rather humorous that he has held to that quote like it was some sort of ghastly idea. He obviously is not interested in debate though, and I’ll read his posts, but won’t respond anymore. I won’t respond because he’s a troll and is very dishonest. He’s not interested in learning the truth, or even at best an honest discussion.

    But I think he uses my quote to his detriment. Anyone reading that will see my intent. He’s free to use it, because of that.

    If you remember a nice young lady who posted here who exchanged emails and when Aaron called him out on something she just disappeared. He thinks he’s being cute but this is not the place for that type of cute…

    Oh well. Let’s keep praying that he eventually gets it, like so many others here have.

  4. Rick B says:

    Jason is so dishonest that Another LDS member (Ralph) Called him on it. How can LDS expect us to believe the BoM to be true if all they do is Lie and run from Honest questions.

    Or if they want to save face and not run away, they cry, Milk before meat. But their are very few if any Christians here that need milk first, we all have a good grasp on the Bible as we have shown and most or all of us have read the 4 stranded works plus other LDS books and a few of us have even went to LDS church services.

    So to even cry Milk before meat is being Dishonest. Me and Ralph are talking about Works verses Grace alone. Ralph is saying works are needed to be saved, but how can works save you/us if all you do is lie and run away, or us deception? Rick b

  5. Jason, you said,

    I don’t know the proper term to put on something that is invisible, doesn’t have the power to reproduce its own species and it totally and completely outside of human nature and comprehension.

    It sounds like you misunderstand our beliefs on the knowability of God as well. It isn’t that he is totally beyond comprehension, but rather that he is beyond exhaustive comprehension. So he can be personally and truly and ever-increasingly known for all eternity, but not exhaustively known at any point in time.

    As we have discussed elsewhere, it is self-defeating to criticize the God of classic and Christian theism for not being able to reproduce his own species (which is a logical impossibility given the classical understanding of the nature of God). Listen carefully, Jason, because I have explained this to you a few times over Google Talk:

    The Mormon God is not able to reproduce his own species either.

    Rather, in traditional Mormonism (as given trajectory by Brigham with a more explicit viviparous spirit birth teaching) all that the Mormon God does is provide a spirit-body for an intelligence. He doesn’t create or reproduce a species, he clothes one. Mormonism jumbles and misuses its own language on this point, but philosophically what I have said is the case. The Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother of Mormonism do not reproduce a species (the fundamental nature of the God-species), but rather produce a body to clothe a being who by definition already had his fundamental species.

    Take care,


  6. falcon says:

    You asked who the “enemy” is in Deut. 33:27. I think this would be an excellent opportunity for you to apply some principles of Biblical interpretation and see if you can figure it out. At the very least, ask who is talking in this verse? What is the occasion that prompted what the person said? Who is the person talking to? What do the verses and chapters immediately preceding and following this verse have to say? What style of writing is being used; is it prose, poetry? What’s the Book in the Bible that this verse appears, about? You might find this exercise rewarding and a lot of fun.

    Rick B., Michael P. and Aaron,
    I have hesitated in saying what I’m about to say because sometimes, for various reasons, it’s better to keep one’s impressions to one’s self. But I keep thinking we’re encountering the spirit of the antichrist here. Paul tells us that we don’t war against flesh and blood but against rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Paul goes on to tell us to put on the full armor of God, to resist and stand firm. I think that the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. We’re instructed to pray at all times in the Spirit and be on the alert with all perseverance. I’m fairly confident that what I’ve read from the Christians is well reasoned, but there comes a time when to give voice in answering is self-defeating and counter productive. Let the heathen rail against the Lord. They will receive the consequence of their actions.

  7. Jason Rae says:

    Rick B, you have some real issues. The only thing Ralph said was that the Mosser/Owen paper was dated or out of date. I agreed that specific topics of research within the paper could be out of date but who cares since that wasn’t my point.

    My point was the attitude of the evs in regards to LDS apologetic research and discovery and which btw was the main point of Mosser/Owen.

    The paper being out of date was not and is not relevant to the point I was making. So in the fantasy world you live in you label that as “being dishonest” which is ridiculous but not surprising coming from you.

  8. It seems that even Mosser and Owen have become somewhat bored with Mormonism, given that they haven’t published anything on it in a long while. Many Mormons interpret the paper as meaning that Mormonism’s scholarship has been demonstrated as compelling and true, when really the essentially message was that Mormonism had become more academic and needed more academic engagement.

    Jason, glad to see you use most of your daily comment limit up in one morning 😉 Would rather hear more substance from you than so much repeat-sensationalism and snobbery. Aren’t we adults here?

  9. liv4jc says:

    Jason’s post was a vivid portayal of the hunmankind in Romans 1:21-23,
    “For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.”
    His post was striking, and spoken like a true atheist! I haven’t heard that much hatred poured out against God since I heard Dan Barker in debate with Ray Comfort.
    He presents our God as this amorphous, purposeless vapor floating around in space waiting to fry anyone who doesn’t bow the knee to his demands. Our God is portrayed as the same being from Genesis to Revelation. He is unchanging so we know what He expects and how we are to conduct ourselves.
    Meanwhile, his god is constantly evolving from the triune god of the BOM, to the virtually powerless progressing god-among-other-eternal-beings of the King Follet discourse, to the progressing polygamous god of Brigham Young and on down the line. What seems to be in store for the new god of Mormonism, given the current political climate and falling church numbers, is a god of universal salvation with low expectations of obedience from his “children”.
    Jason speaks of Christians having no moral standards. I work and play with many Mormons. And apart from their Sunday Social Club and lack of selection of beverages at lunch they dress, look, speak and act just like the world. The world sees your hypocrisy, Jason. You are white-washed tombs full of dead men’s bones. First wash the inside of your cup, then the outside will become clean. Throw out the New Mishna of the D&C and Articles of Faith and enter the rest of our Lord!

  10. Jason Rae says:

    Aaron, I can tell you my first post for today was honest and sincere. You may call it sensationalism and at the same time ignore Falcon’s claim of “spirit of the antichrist” siliness if you want but it’s an obvious double-standard.

    If the heaven touted by the evs is one of authoritarianism, which is the only conclusion one can come to based on the ev salvation scheme, nature of God and fascist phraseology then I want nothing to do with it. If that truly is the state of affairs I will gladly lead a 2nd ‘war in heaven’ to bring down the opression when I pass into the afterlife communist outpost.

    Essentially, if the government of God doesn’t at a bare minimum contain the basic freedoms found within the constitution of the United States of America then who would really want to reside there except for the ‘saved’ Christians afraid to question the evil conducted just a few floors down from where they kneel?

    Disco Inferno:

    Jason Rae, fighting barbarism

  11. Jason, without using other troll-words, how would you define authoritarianism and fascism? Are you essentially objecting to the idea of a God with ultimate authority?

  12. falcon says:

    Man, all I know is that Brett Favre just signed with the Vikings. Does it get much worse than that? Number 4 in a purple jersey is more than I can handle. OK, Favre doesn’t rise to the level of an idol with me, but certain things just aren’t right! A helmet with horns on? What a travesty. I guess it will be black crepe around here tonight. I’ve already done my intense bike work-out and I don’t have anything left in my tank, but how am I going to work this off. I wish some congressman had a health care townhall meeting around here tonight. I’d go and yell at him just to get my frustrations out.

  13. pookachamp says:

    Good heated discussions going on here… I like it. However, I’ve found many of the claims in this thread to be false, misleading, and lacking substance.

    Many to review, but I’ll just touch on a few…

    To Jason: I don’t know if the government of God needs to be defined by anything other than Celestial. But regardless, we all have the potential to participate in that government, and heirs and co-heirs with Christ. That gives us all of the rights we need!

    To Aaron: You said that the Mormon God can’t reproduce it’s own species either. First, I think Mormon’s fundamentally believe that God creates/organizes his children and they can eventually become like him. Similar to your child can eventually become like you… as an infant, they’re not like you, but they grow, learn, progress, and can become like you. In this sense, I understand that Mormons DO believe that God can reproduce/create/organize after his own image/his own species.

    Rick B: You said that there are very few if any christians here that need milk first. Are you saying that you didn’t need spiritual milk first? I did read the thread, and I didn’t feel like anyone was running or hiding… so I believe the dishonesty lies elsewhere than what you claim.

    Liv4jc- You had a great story/testimony. From previous posts, it doesn’t look like the stories/testimonies of the LDS crew are accepted like yours was. But none the less, great story… I happened to have a similar story, just in the direction from an evangelical sect to the LDS church. Interesting… I wonder if my story, when told, will be criticized like other mormons, or praised like yours?

    Just wanted to address those few things… there were many more, but I’ll catch up on the next few threads.


  14. mobaby says:


    I think you have succinctly pointed out the problem that Americans in general have with God – they want no authority in their life. period. The God of Christianity is seen as a kill-joy. They are wrong. In fact God has both His holiness and our best in mind when He communicates His law to us through the scriptures. We don’t live up to His law, therefore we need forgiveness through Jesus sacrifice on the cross. He Himself fulfills the obligations of His law that we never could, and gives to us salvation freely offered through the bloody cross. You are right, Christianity is not a democracy, or a representative republic – we don’t get to make up the rules and create our own laws of nature – God did that and sustains His creation. Americans try to turn Christianity either into a business enterprise or a democracy of some kind – picking and choosing which commands are important, and discarding the rest, and making their own rules for salvation. However, God is an absolute sovereign ruler, and no matter how much the pro-gay theologians want to rewrite and change God, or how much Joseph Smith wanted to justify adultery and proclaim his own path to godhood, it just doesn’t make it so. God is in control and His power is absolute – fortunately He loves us with that same passion – enough to send His Son to die.

  15. setfree says:

    Amen, mobaby!

  16. liv4jc says:

    Amen, well spoken.

  17. rblandjr says:


    Have enjoyed reading your post.

    Jason Rae Rae Rae Rae Rae Rae Rae,

    Thanks for the broken record.

    Just as a dog returns to his vomit, so you have returned to spewing forth your gracious view of what EV’s believe concerning the nature of God.

    Years ago I had a lady where I worked ask me a serious question,”Well who made God?
    I thought it was a good question.

    My answer was simple. If God can be “made”, then how could you call him omnipotent or omniscient.

    I think that the LDS God who was created is the Impotent one when compared to God Almighty who is the Omnipotent One.

    I guess you could say that the LDS God is god almost instead of God Almighty.

  18. Enki says:

    Shouldn’t the name be “Emmanuel”, not ‘Jesus’?
    The link below goes in depth to examine Isaiah 7:14. Emmanuel, and also an issue around the ‘virgin birth’. The author states that it should be a ‘young woman’, and this prophecy was fullfilled already.

    ‘May his name be blotted out’

  19. liv4jc says:

    Jason and pookachamp, after boasting about his superior intelligence and his ability to read the German version of the New Testament, your god Joseph Smith made this comment about the nature of God and man at King Follet’s funeral, which was given in conference:
    But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.

    The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself–that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary to save the world of spirits. I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life that are given to me, you taste them, and I know you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life; I know it is good. And when I tell you of these things that were given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and I rejoice more and more.

    Your god has no more power than you, he’s no older than you, he is as eternally existant as you only smarter. I guess we were all of the stupid eternally existing spirits. Contrary to pookachamp’s statement he did not create or organize you. At least not according to this “revelation” of Joseph Smith. This is why consistent theology matters. You cannot have doctrine that is, and then is not.

  20. Enki says:

    The O.T. always put me to sleep for the most part, especially after exodus. In attempt to look up the passage, a link suggested in this instance the Canaanites. I honestly don’t have a clue as to who or why these people were enemies, nor would I have known that from the chapter only. I suppose I would have to read a bit further, subtle references to other things might give me a clue. But I am not a scholar, I suppose one could study this all ones life and still miss things.

    Another source references “Exodus 34:11 “Be sure to observe what I am commanding you this day: behold, I am going to drive out the Amorite before you, and the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite.”

    Seems like there are are lot enemies. Thats about all that I recall from early morning seminaries, that there were the awful heathens which were worthy to be destroyed.

    I personally would have read the word ‘enemy’ as a generic one, as anyone or anything which was hostile to the jewish people, or to which they perceived that way. Some other bible look up had the commentary that said pretty much that. Anything or anyone evil or set against god or ‘his people’, anything ‘satanic’. After reading from ‘jesus is lord’ I pretty much got the picture that if your not christian or of the ‘people of god’ your ‘satanic’. Isn’t that the simple answer, and all that most christians are interested in?

  21. Enki wrote “After reading from ‘jesus is lord’ I pretty much got the picture that if your not christian or of the ‘people of god’ your ’satanic’. Isn’t that the simple answer, and all that most christians are interested in?”

    If it were, then Paul should not have written “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Eph 6:12.

    I’ll grant that some religious people do set themselves against others in the name of Christ, but I’d argue that they are missing the point; Christ does not fight against us, He fights for us.

    To put it another way, the whole purpose of the Redemption is to redeem people, not to prove how powerful the message of redemption is.

    I think that Christians should not consider any other human being to be their enemy. We don’t fight flesh and blood. We do, however, fight the things that bind and harm our neighbors, who all bear the indelible stamp of God’s image.

    The ‘Christianity’ that you allude to, in which I find a reason to feel superior to my neighbor, isn’t following Christ at all; its religious snobbery.

  22. pookachamp,

    You seem quite new to Mormonism.

    Have you been introduced to the ‘full’ gospel yet?

    Or maybe the ‘full’ story of Joseph Smith and the history of the Mormonism.

    Please don’t settle for the usual responses of ‘it doesn’t matter’ or ‘it will be made clear when the Lord sees fit’. It does and it won’t.

  23. falcon says:

    One of the topics that got some attention here deals with the sovereignty of God. The OT is a history of God’s chosen people. Why do they get to be God’s chosen people? Because He’s God and God can arbitrarily chose whoever He wants. In Genesis 12 God promises Abraham three things: land, seed and blessing. (Genesis 12:1-3)In Genesis 13:14-18 is an expansion of the land promise and is called the Palestinian Covenant. So if we think that Deuteronomy 33:27 is referring to “land” that His chosen people are to posses, then the enemy would be those who are living on that land (which He has given to the people He has chosen). Now why does God have a right to do this, it’s not fair, you might ask. Because He’s God, that’s why. He gets to decide.
    Now you may disagree with this take on what the Bible is saying, but you can’t take issue with the fact that God is sovereign. That is, unless you want to go and find yourself another God, which is what Joseph Smith did. In order to be a Mormon, a person has to reject God for another god in the person of a sinful man who through his own efforts, became a god. A person would have to believe that they will also become a god just like the millions/billions of men before them that did the same thing. A person would have to reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ that provides totally for our redemption through the Cross of Christ, for another gospel. This other gospel provides a portion of a person’s salvation after that person has worked themselves into personal righteousness. There’s no greater sin, than rejecting God for an idol which is what Mormonism does.

  24. Rick B says:

    Pookachamp, You said in an earlier topic or post that your new here and have not read everything. Then you said

    Rick B: You said that there are very few if any christians here that need milk first. Are you saying that you didn’t need spiritual milk first? I did read the thread, and I didn’t feel like anyone was running or hiding… so I believe the dishonesty lies elsewhere than what you claim.

    First off, the majority of Christians here are way past being Babies who need milk. Second, if I have to I will give you the topics in former posts and you can read them for yourself, But many an LDS here has dodged questions and Jason is famous for it and has been called on it over and over.

    If thats not being Dishonest than I dont know what is. I will just for you, point out from here on out, I will sit at home with pen and paper, take names of Topics and dates as to ALL the LDS who avoid questions and list them for you, then your eyes will see, but then I suspect as all other LDS have, you will either leave because you cant handle the truth, or you will make excuse for them.

    I know you will say, they are probably busy, or their is a post limit, that should not stop them since they go onto write replies. Also I do my best to tell people if I am going to be gone for days and cannot answer questions, or if LDS say Rick, you missed one, I do my best to go back and answer it, I rarely see that with you LDS. So Dont be surprised when you get names and questions of your Fellow LDS avoiding questions. Rick b

  25. Jason Rae says:

    Aaron, follow the King Follett discourse to its ultimate conclusion, co-equal and co-eternal aren’t just fancy catch-phrases. God is the ultimate authority in all things but He is capable of governing His kingdom without resorting to fascist rule and thuggish torture camps. Seriously. He really does have a kingdom, a degree of salvation for all His children.


    liv4whateversoundsgoodtoday, this one is going in my ev quote book:

    ” He presents our God as this amorphous, purposeless vapor floating around in space waiting to fry anyone who doesn’t bow the knee to his demands. “

    I love it. But I’m confused as to why you say I’m the one doing the presenting. That’s been ev doctrine since I can remember. I went to the holy roller churches in the deep South as a kid, I know what they teach. Rolling around on the floor. Shaking like milk. Turning blue all over the table and the floors. Anyway, don’t pin that on me like I made it up when I’m just throwing ev doctrine at ya. Are you picking up what I’m putting down?


    mobaby, no one is denying the atonement of Jesus Christ. Like I told Aaron, God can be a sovereign ruler without resorting to thuggish Stalinist practices.


    Also Aaron, you said:

    ” our God is fundamentally outside of space and time.. ”

    So in the afterlife when you dwell with God will you also dwell outside of space and time?

  26. Jason Rae says:

    rblandjrblahblah, when I want your opinion, I’ll give it to you.


    Rick B, I’d like to see a green fuzzy bear chasing you around.

  27. mobaby says:


    But you do deny the atonement. Mormon theology de-emphasizes the cross in direct contradiction to the Bible, Mormons emphasize the Garden of Gethsemane without Biblical justification, and there is essentially no atonement in the LDS religion – Jesus sacrificial death is just seen as an extra push to put Mormons over the top “after all you can do” – which is heresy, a denial of both the effectiveness of Christ’s sacrifice and the sinful depravity of fallen man. There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ – not even a little part of the way – it’s all Jesus or there is no salvation. The moment you depend on your works or own righteousness for even one step towards heaven, you are denying the atonement – and denying Christ and His amazing and beautiful sacrifice on the cross on our behalf.

    You’re the one who said God’s Kingdom had to have the freedoms contained in the constitution of the United States. Sorry, God is not elected, and we cannot run for office – we’re not even on the ballot because there are no heavenly ballots. We cannot make laws and determine our own rules. I fail to see how God Himself coming and giving up His life for us and supplying EVERYTHING we need for salvation is a thuggish Stalinist practice. God is an absolute ruler – who loves us enough to die for us – the ultimate benevolent dictator.

  28. falcon says:

    Anyway, my daughter is home (quick trip) from school and work. She graduated from college about a year ago but is back in college picking up another degree (why not?). So she’s made a decision to cut her hair which is a big deal because it’s her IDOL. I had to listen to the whole thing last night, for a long time. Anyone out there have a daughter? The rationale, how much to cut off, on and on. See, the kid has hair about the length of Repunsel in the fairytale. I don’t think she ever let it down so boys could climb into her second story bedroom window, but the dogs would have gotten them if it was tried. That’s why I have dogs roaming the farm.
    So this HAIRIDOL started back when she was obsessed with the “X Files” and wanted her hair to look like Dana Scully. Then it was on to “Xena-The Warrior Princes”; bangs and HAIRIDOL died black. So now she likes Seva on “NCIS”. I have no clue what it’s going to look like, this new HAIRIDOL, but I know I’ll be hearing about it a lot and of course I’ll be paying for it $$$$$. I made-up my mind a long time ago that hair was not going to become a major point of contention between us but the dog collar back in ninth grade did have me up to the edge.
    When it comes to hair and clothes, people like change, if fact the fashion industry is driven by it and in some ways, people demand it. But when it comes to spiritual matters, those of us who call Christ Our Savior and God our Father, build on a foundation of consistency. Does God reveal things to us? Of course He does, but God doesn’t change. He is the same yesterday, today and will be the same tomorrow. God is not “evolving”. We may experience more of His unconditional love, mercy and forgiveness but his constancy is a bedrock principle of His divine nature. We don’t have to worry about God switching horses in mid- stream when it comes to the fundamental doctrine that guides and reassures us. We grow spiritual and in that sense we change, we evolve. The goal is to become Christlike.

  29. liv4jc says:

    Jason, your experience with “christianity” explains your distrust of the “religion”. Your hatred of God is explained by your fallen nature, because like the rest of the un-redeemed world you are an enemy of God.
    There are many former evangelicals turned god-haters. Bart Ehrman (author of Misquoting Jesus and other works on textual criticism) claims he was an evangelical. But when you hear his conversion story you realize he was sold a bill of goods when he “asked Jesus into his heart”. The same goes for the founder of the Freedom from Religion society, radical atheist and God-hater, Dan Barker. Dan loved his free-will faith and commanded God to save men and guaranteed unrepentant sinners salvation every time he led someone in the “sinners prayer”. He was amazed to see little or no fruit in the lives of his church converts. This led to his believing that there was no God, since he did not see him working.
    Much like you, Joseph Smith himself was subjected to the tent revivals of his day. He saw much of the rolling on the floor and being “struck by the Spirit” that you say you did. A lot of this manifested itself in the stories of converts to Christ in the BOM. And I’m sure, seeing rank hypocrisy of the false converts of his day he noticed false religion when he saw it. If you look at the BOM and the early beginnings of Mormonism, you will see a faith much closer to protestantism than the polytheistic mass of confusion of the modern LDS church. You still have not refuted my statements that the BOM does not support LDS theology, even though it is supposed to contain the fulness of the everlasting gospel.
    From cover to cover the bible presents Yahweh as a God of grace, saving a few by His sovereign will out of the many. Every man is fallen. Every man deserves punishment, and not forgiveness. This is grace. God does not consign to “torture” innocent souls. He declares that he has not joy in the death of the wicked. He begs them to repent and turn to Him for healing.

  30. setfree says:

    love your comments, falcon and live4Jesus

  31. Jason Rae says:

    liv4jc, I’m not a God hater but I do hate dictatorial control, brutality and crimes against humanity in all forms – if the ev God falls under that description it’s not my problem but his.

    Where did I say I did the rolling on the floor and shaking like milk? Never. Sorry if I wasn’t clear on that. I didn’t take any part in that ridiculous side-show but rather was only a visitor as a guest of my cousin.

  32. falcon says:

    I’m always interested in the stories of why people reject God. Most-of-the-time it’s a convenient excuse citing some form of observed behavior or encounter with a Christian “believer”. I often wonder what these encounters or observations have to do with God; His existence, or His nature and character. I could easily list countless examples of what I’ve observed in people calling themselves Christians or the out-of-control behavior of some folks in religious revival meetings. I could also provide a list of religious charlatans who have and do rip people off.
    One of the greatest of these religious charlatans was a guy who lived in the 19th century by the name of Joseph Smith. At one time this religious huckster conned people out of money by telling them that he had a magic stone by which he could see buried treasure in the ground. The guy got dragged into court on the charges. He also defrauded several of his religious brethren by using his position as a “prophet” to “marry” their wives. He even conned a women into marrying him by saying that an angel with a sword appeared to him and said he would slay him if he didn’t marry more women. He would also “secure” the salvation of the family of one girl if she succumbed to his advances.
    Smith’s legacy lives on in a church that has to work very hard to either cover-up or find convenient excuses for the “prophet’s” behavior. We see the sad legacy of this religious fraud in the testimony of people who deny God, mock God, rebel against God all the while declaring that they will be god.

  33. setfree says:

    Falcon, may I say you’ve been on a roll lately!
    Lovin it!

  34. falcon says:

    Something popped into my mind regarding how some folks abuse the Gospel of Jesus Christ for their own selfish ambition. I remembered reading something on this topic by a preacher who got thrown in jail for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He said:
    “Now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel so that my imprisonment in the cause of Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else, and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. Some to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; the latter do it out of love knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice yes, and I will rejoice.
    Now, our preacher could say this because even though the motives of some, who were preaching the Gospel were questionable, at the very least their doctrine was correct. The preacher did not have any time what-so-ever for those who corrupted the Gospel. He wrote: “As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines….” and again: “…..holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he (elder) may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict…”
    For those who have been called of Jesus Christ, we know who God is and know a counterfeit “idol” when we see it. Why is that? Has God given us more grace? Or do we know God so well that an impostor can easily be identified, called out and dismissed.

  35. rblandjr says:


    I want to thank you for sharing you heart with us, for being honest with us and yourself.

    I would like you to forgive me for joking around and throwing some verbal barbs at you.

    Do you mind me being honest with you in loving way and share just what Christ did in my life.

    I wrote this poem about Christs’ Unfailing Love.

    Unfailing Love

    To be the focus of Christ’s love,that He would come from Heaven above.
    To pay our debt on Calvary, so we from sin might be set free.
    Our hearts were deep so deep in sin, such misery such pain within.
    Impossible it seemed to me, to be delivered and set free.
    So suddenly there came to me a light so bright I could not see.
    And then a sound so sweet to hear spoke deep within and calmed my fear.
    It was the Lord Gods only Son, He spoke to me the victories won.
    So as I bowed my heart to pray,He made me His on that bright day.
    And then a flood of peace and rest which filled my soul and I was blessed.
    How could this be to one like me, unfailing love had captured me.
    My soul took wings and soared on high. It seemed to reach beyond the sky.
    This wondrous grace from God above embraced me in unfailing love.
    And then a song that filled my soul, of praise to God that made me whole.
    A message of this love and grace will alvays shine upon my face.
    And that is why I’ll ever sing, of love Divine that rescued me.
    Unfailing love this song of grace has won for me that Heavenly place.
    Much greater than that land above will be our Lord who gave such love.
    And of this love and grace will sing, to glorify our Lord and King.
    Unto the Lamb we lift our praise, to tell of mercy, love and grace.
    Unfailing love will be our theme, to sing throughout eternity.
    To sing throughout eternity of Christ’s unfailing love for me.
    Oh what glory that will be to praise the Lamb eternally.

  36. liv4jc says:

    Pookachamp, I prayed earnestly for you last night, and for Jason as well. You asked if your testimony about your conversion from Christianity to Mormonism would be accepted as mine was. No, it will not be. I see it as a tragedy and as a failure of modern day evangelism and pastoral teaching. If you had been truly converted you would never have fallen for such an obvious deception as Mormonism. The evidence against your new found faith is surface level stuff. It takes very little digging to uncover the lies and contradictions.
    This is Hebrews 6:4-6. I pray it is not you.
    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

  37. pookachamp says:


    you can poke holes in any organization/theology/sect, so I don’t falter because of extravagant things you may want to “teach” me about the church. I don’t think any of us can know the whole gospel, so I’m still learning. I have not read every book about the history of the church, so I’m still reading. If that answers your question.


    I guess I view your testimony as a failure and a tragedy in the same christ like way. Nothing more to say… for an anti mormon website, I shouldn’t expect any less. I would say that it is you that has been deceived, by cunning websites that seek to destroy GOOD, simple surface level stuff that only takes a little digging to see how easily you’ve fallen from logical and divine truth. Thanks for the prayers!

  38. Every time Jason Rae posts here, I think “Hallelujah, there is a God who answers my prayers!”

    Keep it up Jason! The world is judging Mormonism by its fruit, and you are that fruit (Matt 7:15-20).

    By the way, you never got to tell us the glorious gospel of the Adam/God thing (see Aaron’s first exchanges with you). Would you care to enlighten us?

  39. Enki,

    You’re a kind-of neutral here with an interest in words and etymology.

    Seeing as Jason is rather fond of the term “fascist”, would you care to explain to him what it means and where it comes from?

    I’d be interested to know his reaction to how this word relates to his style of…er… dialogue.

  40. I’ve never been able to get very many fundamental definitions from Jason.

  41. Jason Rae says:

    rblandjr, I really like your poem. It’s clearly from the heart and could easily be in a hymn book. Thanks for sharing.


    liv4jc, I thank you for your prayers. Much appreciated.


    mobaby, Our doctrine on the atonement of Jesus Christ fills thousands upon thousands of volumes. It seems that maybe you haven’t even read one of them.


    All evs:

    Aaron said:

    ” our God is fundamentally outside of space and time.. ”

    So in the afterlife when you dwell with God will you also dwell outside of space and time?

  42. pookachamp says:

    Rick B-

    Let’s be “honest” here… dodging a question doesn’t mean he’s dishonest… it means he’s dodging a question. That’s the biggest problem i’ve run into speaking with evangelicals… always trying to read into things that we say (or in Jason’s case… don’t say), always trying to imply things… and now that I’ve said this, undoubtedly, someone will ask a question that may have a figurative meaning, but they’ll take it literally. Once again, since this isn’t a website for poking holes in any other religion other than Mormons, I wouldn’t expect any higher standards, so congratulations for meeting my expectations.

    SInce we’re being honest here… most of your questions are incriminating, rhetorical, critical, and no matter what the answer, generally speaking, you’ll just disagree, discount it, etc. It’s kind of like when my wife asks me what shirt she should wear, and then doesn’t pay attention to the answer and wears another shirt anyways… at least, that’s been my experience with you evangelicals.

  43. So in the afterlife when you dwell with God will you also dwell outside of space and time?

    In the intermediate state until the resurrection I will dwell outside of space, but I will never dwell outside of time. My relationship with God depends on God intersecting his timeless unchanging nature with a time-bound finite being like me. My God relates to me in time but he doesn’t dwell in time as though deity itself was time-bound.

  44. Jason Rae says:

    Martin, I enjoy your posts as well. In regards to your question, there are certain doctrinal or spiritual things that you just don’t discuss in a public forum, at least that’s my personal feeling. Others may feel different.

    However, I’m very open among my family and friends and if you were ever in my home we could discuss a wide range of topics, nothing hidden. Same goes for talking with Rick B. The venue matters.

  45. Michael P says:


    I’ll ask a question: do words have meaning?

    To avoid any sort of confusion, I’ll say this about my question. We’ve been accused of twisting your (LDS) words before, but when we respond to what you say, we are responding to what you say. In other words, we take what you say and translate as it appears.

    You may disagree, and that’s fine. But I have now had two LDS here on this forum state that they don’t care about the words or the logic. We, at least I, cannot do that because I think words have meaning and we ought to pay attention to what people say.

    For example, BY once said Adam was God and that your salvation was dependant on that. Or D&C 132 states that part of your salvation is the plan of polygamy. What are we to do with these sayings? Ignore them? What about you? What do you do with them? What about the Bible or the BoM? Do you take seriously what is said in them or not? They are the word of God, right, but there is evidence that you outright ignore certain instruction in both.

    So, here’s my moral: understand what it is we look at and why we object. We are not evil or out to destroy, rather we are out to shed some light on your faith you may not have considered.

    Like it or not, we cannot ignore the plain words spoken by your prohets and other leaders.

  46. Jason Rae says:

    Thanks Aaron for clearing that up. I must admit that is new doctrine to me. Do you have any scripture references relating to that? Thanks.

  47. pookachamp says:

    Aaron, can you give us a bible reference for that…? Is that your doctrine, or which sect’s doctrine? Just curious…

  48. It is an inference from scripture and philosophy, and is the virtually unanimous position of traditional Christian teachers. See here, Psalm 90:2, Job 36:26, Revelation 1:8, and consider the implications of John 1:3, etc.

  49. pookachamp says:

    Inference and Philosophy? Hmmm… suspect.

    I love the “traditional Christian” term. I’m sure there will be a thread on “traditional Christianity”, where it originated, who actually created the term christianity, and how many of the precepts are false and misleading.

    Aaron, you seem very smart… can we get a post on the trinity? I’d like to get the understanding behind that belief.

  50. Yeah, that’s why I refused to take Geometry in middle school. Those blasted Greeks made it up out of nowhere. 😉

    Best way I know how to explain the Trinity: Three inter-relating eternal persons who never had to shake hands, and whose relationship is essential to their very being.

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