This is a bit of silliness. Google is working on an indexing and infrastructure update it has named “Caffeine Update.” A forum discussion on the tool included this comment:
“So Google is developing an updated search tool called ‘Caffeine’
“I’m not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormon Church) but I do respect other religions. Since the Mormon religion disallows caffeine, please consider changing the name. It’s kind of like marketing Google Bacon to Jewish or Muslim folks, or Google Brisket to Hindus.”
I don’t know if the commenter was serious or if he/she meant this as a joke, but it certainly has people laughing. It seems that all — Mormons and non-Mormons alike — agree that the idea is utterly ridiculous.
A few follow-on comments to the plea for religious sensitivity make an effort to inform people about the Word of Wisdom (i.e., that it does not actually prohibit caffeine). One or two (found at Search Engine Roundtable) express appreciation for the thoughtfulness and respect shown by the original commenter. Most say that naming a search engine update “Caffeine” is about as inconsequential as it gets.
One Mormon, however, wrote the following:
“As a Mormon, I am also prohibited from using Java or javascript, as well as any WINE-based software. “
Not to worry. The Word of Wisdom says “every…fruit in the season thereof [is] to be used with prudence and thanksgiving” (D&C 89:11). For Latter-day Saints who want to keep their temple recommends, there is an alternative to Google. Mormons can now use Microsoft’s new search engine derived from cherries, “Bing”, with complete freedom.
But what if I prefer barley or wheat? Do they accommodate for that?
Will they be working on a glutein-free version anytime soon?
I don’t want to get anyone in trouble, so I won’t mention names or anything, but I have a couple funny anecdotes for this thread.
One is that an esteemed member if the local High Council (and a temple worker) that I know has, on several occasions, taken an exMo that I know to the local service station and waited outside in the vehicle while the exMo went inside and purchased two coffees, one for each of them.
In my years as a Mormon, this was my exact experience… you can do it, just let on that you are (goes the same for any other “commandment” that you can get away with).
Another thing is the indecision over Coke and Pepsi. If it’s the same today as it used to be, you can’t find a caffeinated beverage on BYU campus. But every Mormon you know has a case of Diet Coke at home in their refrigerator.
My LDS grandmother found out somewhere that coffee kills parasites. She went to some interesting lengths to get it to do so without drinking any. yikes
As I told Jason Rae last week or so, “If you ever want to go out for a beer at Hopper’s, I’ll buy.”
This topic had this in it
If you really want to get knit picky, then you could argue this contradicts the word of wisdom since coffee beans comes in a red shell that they call a cherry.
now it’s not the same as the sweet cherries we can eat. But you could simple cover the coffee beans in Chocolate and eat them instead of brewing them and drinking it. I know I love them that way. Rick b
Rick B,
There is a ‘”Kopi Luwak” — in English: “Civet Coffee.” Its supposed to be from an animal that eats coffee berries. The droppings that remain are roasted like regular coffee, its supposed to be good. Some say ‘good to the last dropping’.
Set free,
“Another thing is the indecision over Coke and Pepsi. If it’s the same today as it used to be, you can’t find a caffeinated beverage on BYU campus. But every Mormon you know has a case of Diet Coke at home in their refrigerator. ”
The problem is that people think the W.O.W. has something to do with health, and caffeine. I have come to the conclusion that it does not. I think its the LDS way of attempting to make their own ‘kosher’. From what I noticed is that the original ‘Kosher’ is largely symbolic.
I used to work in a dining hall, and I was in charge of changing these huge coffee machines. The filter pads actually reminded me of messy diapers, filled with ‘crap’. The students in the dining hall probably would have added that it smelled like it also.
Tea bags can be messy, leaving brown and yellow stains, what does that sort of look like on white clothing? Chewing tobacco is VERY messy, if you have ever seen the spit can for chew, you can vouch that its ‘crap’. The smoke from cheap cigarettes is NOT sexy, smells worse than a skunk, or burning dung. Some have compared cheap beer to horse urine. Cheap wine can be pretty nasty as well.
I don’t keep the W.O.W. at all anymore. But I do restrict my habits to good teas, never coffee, and good wine and beer. I have never picked up tobacco in any form. I certainly wish more people at least abstained from smoking, its the most revolting smell, and its so annoying, as every day I smell it in this town that I live in. Smokers also feel its their ‘right’ to do so. I would ‘agree’ if they all did it in a diving bell 2 miles under the ocean where I can’t smell it, and it won’t ever reach me. At least with beer, wine and tea, I can kept it to myself!
Enki wrote “I think its the LDS way of attempting to make their own ‘kosher’.”
Enki,
I’m dangerously close to agreeing with your observations, yet again.
PS I’ve tried “Weasel-poo coffee” (whatever the “proper” name is). The production process is revolting – they feed coffee beans to weasels and then roast the “produce”. Its hideously expensive and not worth it. Its a great conversation-starter, though, as in “just how do they make this stuff again…”
I’ve about the animals eating the coffee beans and then after they pass through they get eaten and people roast and drink them, I will take other at their word that it is good. You can drink my cup. Rick b
There’s nothing like a good wine now and then.
Oops, sorry about the typo I meant ‘whine’ ! 😛
Well Enki,
I think part of your reasoning is correct because JS got the revelation after his wife complained about having to clean up all the tobacco spit and smoke out of the meeting room. It definately was a disgusting habit that caused the beginning of the WoW.
Also, the tea and coffe has little to do with the caffeine. That may be a small part of it but the actual WoW says ‘hot drinks’. It was the church later that put in tea and coffee. From what I have studied in Biochemistry, I also think (note my thoughts) it has something to do with temperature, so this would then include hot soups, hot chocolate, hot milo, hot ecco, etc. If the temperature is over 60 degrees C, it destroys the function of enzymes used in the process of digesting food. Plus too hot leads to burning the mouth and eosophogus and could lead to ulcering of the stomach. There are also other alkaloids besides caffeine in tea and coffee that are harmful, so it could be any one of them or all of them together.
I have heard of a couple of past prophets advising to steer clear of Coke and Pepsi, but the actual doctrine at this point only stipulates tea and coffee.
Still like I said – I like my barley in my drinks, and I have heard wheat can be good too. We have lemon and barley cordial here in Australia – that’s what I’m talking about.
Hey Ralph, silly side question here.
I have a good friend who was born and raised in Australia, I have known him for close to 20 years, he has even come to visit twice. He mailed me some Vegemite and mink flavored life savors I hated both. Anyway my question is this, He hears many Americans say, were going to throw some shrimp on the barbie, It drives him crazy that some say that. Do they say that where you live or is that just us here in America. Rick b
In all seriousness though, whatever the Word of Wisdom entails, it is an LDS commandment:
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/the-commandments
and as such, if you do not obey it, the LDS Jesus will not forgive you:
At baptism, “[y]ou make a covenant… to keep His commandments. In return, He promises to forgive your sins and let you return to live with Him, PROVIDED you keep your covenant” emphasis added
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-commandments/baptism-and-confirmation
So… any LDS out there ready to die today???
😉
RickB,
We call shrimps ‘prawns’. The saying ‘throw another shrimp on the barbie’ comes from an advertising campaign staring Paul Hogan which was aimed at the American populace. It does get annoying when it gets repeated over and over, but I don’t hear it that often any more as the campaign was years ago.
I took some Vegie on my mission with me and I only found 2 people that liked it – 1 American andd 1 Finn. I have heard that most non-Australians do not like it.
I’m new to this website, so I’m glad my first experience is going to be relatively light hearted. Just to lay my background, I was recently converted to the LDS church, and I have been participating in different Christian sects for my whole life. Most recently, I was attending Mariners church in Southern California…
Setfree- I’m confused with your reference. You said “LDS Jesus will not forgive you”, but then in the next paragraph it explicitly said that “He promises to forgive your sins…”. Also, I didn’t realize there was a distinction between Jesus and LDS Jesus. Maybe the next post can talk about the “differences” between the LDS Jesus character you’re describing, and some other Jesus that is not LDS. From my experience in religion, Jesus has become more real to me because I’m now asked to “be” as he would have me be, not just “profess” to be.
I love the word of wisdom… too many sicknesses, addictions, deformities, etc. have occurred because people don’t “wisely” consume that which is placed here on the earth. Great guide for our times!
I think it tastes like a really salty beef bouillon base used to make soups and stews. If you have ever heard of Ken ham from the creation science institute, I met him in person and he said you guys from down under view Pickles like we view veg-a-mite. Rick b
Setfree,
I think the actual concept for LDS people is that ‘jesus’ is very willing to forgive, but ‘repentance'(turning away from the bad habit) and compliance to all the rules are required. I don’t know if perfect compliance is required at the start. It is a different concept from some other churches.
Pookachamp, Here are a few links that should clear up the LDS Jesus issue.
http://www.mrm.org/jesus-of-mormonism
http://www.mrm.org/topics/introductory-issues/were-christians-just-you
I too, was a convert to the LDS org., I left the the LDS faith not so long ago, and I am totally happy with my decision. I am free from the oppression, guilt, and dishonesty.
I never asked the LDS Org. to be perfect, I just ask them to be honest, which they could not be.
Regarding the Wow, I think it is important to note that these ideas were not unique to Joe. There was a wide spread movement regarding these exact same issues, although it was not en vogue not to smoke, many preachers were professing the same teachings as the Wow.
Second point, which I don’t remember all the details of, but it was in the early 1900 when the WoW became a Temple requirement. Until they added the WoW to the Temple quiz it has been reported that there was a few general authorities who drank and smoked. Remember the Wow was not give as a commandment, I guess God forgot he told Joe that when they changed the rules later on
Ralph,
The temp you mention is very hot! It should be common sense not to consume anything that hot.
Tea has benefits and drawbacks. High orac value, minerals, vitamins, and some medicinal like properties. Some common seeds, grains and veggies have antinutritional values, but most people only think of their taste or other properties, maybe not the problems.
I don’t imagine that the teaching will change much, especially if you consider ‘mormon kosher’. Colas might be ok, as you just open the can and enjoy. With fresh made coffee and tea, you might have to deal with the grounds, filter, tea bags etc…
I don’t understand the total ban on alcohol. I understand that ‘strong drink’ refers to distilled alcohol. ‘Mild drink’ could refer to beer, wine and other fermented beverages with lower alcohol content. An interesting beverage for Mormons might be kombucha, a ferment made from tea! It has a very low alcohol content. (less than 1/2 of 1 percent) One source says thats about the same as fresh squeezed orange juice! I never thought about it, but it makes sense that produce will have some degree of fermentation going on at all times. In any case Kombucha has a long history in chinese culture and is used in chinese medicine.
Pookachamp,
“I love the word of wisdom… too many sicknesses, addictions, deformities, etc. have occurred because people don’t “wisely” consume that which is placed here on the earth. Great guide for our times!”
The LDS church had better do more. Trans fats, refined foods, fast foods, pesticides, GMOs etc…appear to be much bigger problems than even alcohol, coffee, tea. Today I just had a conversation with a nutritionist about various toxic residues that EVERYONE has, and even animals thousands of miles away from any city have. Some of these were very suprising, residues of fire retardants, chemicals associated with plastics, medications, as well as pesticides, fungicides etc….
Just like the Roman Catholics This verse fits Mormonism and the WoW.
Rick b
RickB,
I don’t see how 1 Timothy 4:3 is related to the W.0.W. Particular meats are not restricted. “Meat” in the sense of ‘food’ perhaps doesn’t fit either. Alcohol, tobacco,coffee, tea are not foods! One can totally live without alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea etc. Recreational and ritual drugs are definately not foods, like LSD, opium, marijuana. I believe these are ‘forbidden’ to christians under the aspect of ‘socerery’.
I am not sure how ‘food’ is defined in the Bible, but what comes to mind for me are things like fruit, veggies, fresh eggs, milk, meat, bread. Although there is considerable debate on what constitutes the natural diet of humans. In the united states and some other western countries there is an obsession with ideal eating habits, and some of the authors really take on a moralist edge which seem to go beyond mere nutritional concerns.
Kevin
Very perceptive of you! I suppose there was a transitional period for LDS church leaders.(not necessarily an endorsement)Some of these substances are very addictive and habit forming, perhaps that is why it was just ‘good advice’ at the time it was written. My mothers best friend was a 7th day adventist, their dietary ideals are quite similiar, but a few differences. I met a Christian Scientist who mentioned to me that they generally avoid coffee and smoking. I don’t know about alcohol. However she did point out that there is considerable variance as to what one chooses to do, its quite different from a requirement for temple attendance, that is true.
There is also a doctrinal problem with the WOW and the sacrament. D&C 27: 2 is an adjustment to eliminate wine. However, in theory this makes it possible for Mormons to use hamburger and orange juice for ‘the lords supper’as long as its done in the right ‘spirit’.
“For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory.”
Enki, Funny how you dont feel 1st Timothy 4:3 does not fit, I believe it does because God told Peter in Acts to kill and eat, Yet in Timothy it says, People will command we abstain from meat, then the WoW says,
How many LDS in reality follow this to the letter? You might say every LDS does, But I have read replies from LDS on the fair LDS board where they claim they lied about following the WoW to enter the temple, or they were honest in saying they dont follow it and were still allowed in.
Some LDS on this board admit they dont keep it to the letter of the law, They drink or smoke or do what ever. I’m not saying, I’m just saying, you guys tell us we need to obey to be saved yet you guys dont. Jesus spoke about people like that in the Bible, had very strong words for them. Rick b
Jumping in here on the discussion of the requirement to follow the WoW. My first instinct is that it sounds a lot like the criticism that Christians get fore saying we don’t have to do anything or that we can do whatever we want. The difference is that here, in the WoW, are explicit instructions on what to do…
As I have started saying elsewhere, words matter. Don’t they? Does anyone want to tell me they don’t?
I guess what I love about the Word of Wisdom is that Joseph Smith completely ignored it. God gives him these “suggestions,” but because no flaming sword, he can do as he pleases, which was, smoke, drink alcohol and coffee. Not sure about the tea, but who cares? Mormons say the reason that it was not a commandment at first, is because those people addicted, could not possibly be expected to stop. Years later it was then a commandment. I always thought that was funny because, from the time it was a commandment, those people who thought it was a suggestion, would have had the same trouble stopping. Anyway……Smith should have been an example of his word of wisdom, regardless.
For all the LDS who teach the WoW is from God and we MUST KEEP IT TO BE SAVED, I say read this,
Notice they said in verse 24 saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
They said we gave NO SUCH COMMAND TO KEEP THE LAW.
Then they said For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things
If it was GOOD according to the HOLY GHOST, Then according to the Bible the HOLY GHOST IS GOD, So it’s Good according to God.
Then if you want to do certain things, they listed these few things, That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.
They never said anything about the WoW, Is God so stupid that he would think of adding it Thousands of years later? And if we follow those few things, it was never stated they we must do them to be saved.
The place of the WORD of Wisdom[WoW] in Lds
history seems to have started out as a “prin-
ciple with promise”[D&C 89:3], a code to live
by that would insure better health.Then in 1921
it became more.Now a violation of it will
restrict an Lds from the Temple. The highest
goal of faithful Lds is thus denied.
With a background in ministry to Jehovah’s
Witnesses(my wife a former JW) the above
scenario is all to similar to JW’s stand on
blood transfusions.Their doctrine concerning
blood was cautionary for years.JW’s were
counseled not to accept a transfusion.Then in
1961 it became an offense resulting in dis-
fellowshiping(like LDs being excomunicated).
To be disfellowshiped is to be kicked out of
the Kingdom,i.e. a captial offense.
I see a similar fate for LDS who violate the
WoW.,the highest goal (exaltation) is denied.
To a JW the goal of salvation is denied.
It seems for Christians who follow the Biblical
counsel to, “not go beyond what is written”[1Cor
4:6] is still a safe course to follow.Otherwise
we can be “misled”[Matt 24:11] by any number of
prophets vying for our attention today.
I think it’s funny that even the title “Word of Wisdom” means that it is a smart idea, good advice, but not law, for heaven’s sake.
But then, LDS inc puts it into the list of commandments, to further ensure that the folk don’t make it.
“LUCIFER: I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant they make at these altars in this temple this day, they will be in my power!”
http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/temple_ritual.htm
Kevin- I appreciate the links to an organization that is not the LDS church, but is trying to define what the LDS church believes. However, I feel that is similar to going to a dentist to ask advice about my cancer. But interesting opinions…
I’d be curious to hear details about other Preachers that were teaching things like the word of wisdom, and if those teachings are still being taught, where, if they include trans fats, etc.
Your comments left me a little offended. You’ve implied that I am oppressed, guilty, and dishonest because of my affiliation with the LDS church. Temple quiz? Never heard of it…
I’ve dealt with very many dishonest people and organizations… some of the people have been Mormon’s and others have been of other religious organizations. I don’t believe the LDS church is dishonest, maybe some people are, but not the church. Sounds like you’ve been soured because of something… too bad.
SetFree… your last post doesn’t make sense. It’s law because it was revealed by the ultimate authority… who cares what it is titled. I think having this additional revealed commandment further ensures our ability to live a celestial law… Like our Heavenly Father… it doesn’t make it more impossible, but more possible.
pookachamp, great to have you on the board and I’m glad to hear you joined the church.
I’m LDS and I own and do all the programming for JosephSmith.com. If you are interested we have a short presentation on the site about the origin of the Book of Mormon that you can share with your family and friends.
Regards, Jason
RickB mentioned 1 Tim 4:3.
Want to go “higher”?
How about Matt 15:10-20
Did you notice that last remark in Matt 15:20? Its not that Jesus is switching the topic from dietary requirements to personal hygeine. Rather the reference to a person with “washed hands” relates to a person who has kept the law.
Its interesting that “washing hands”, or even eating only clean foods, does not make one “clean”. And being “clean” is the fundamental pre-qualification for entry into the Temple.
Pooka, never heard of the interview, huh? It exists…
Sure your being told everything?
pookachamp, So you read the articles? Are they wrong? You asked what the difference in the LDS Jesus and the real Jesus. Did the articles misrepresent the LDS faith? If so, what is your perspective?
pookachamp, ok so your a convert. I am sure the missionaries told you about Joesph’s Magical seeing stone, how he rarely if ever translated from the gold plates, how he translated with his face in a hat most of the time, how the book, “View of the Hebrews” is a book that pre-dates the Book of Mormon (they are almost the same), how Prophets have the right to back date revelation, and the fact that the “witnesses” never seen the gold plates with their “real” eyes, it was with their spiritual eyes. Do you also know that the clergy is paid, The president lives in a multi-million dollar condo and receives a stipend reported in 1998 as $300,000.
Everything that drove me away from the LDS org came from the LDS org, it was not from contentious sources.
I concur with Rae-Rae, I am glad you are here also. BTW ask JR about the Adam-God Theory sometime, I hear it is a real hoot.
Pookachamp, you said,
“Your comments left me a little offended. You’ve implied that I am oppressed, guilty, and dishonest because of my affiliation with the LDS church. Temple quiz? Never heard of it…”
The LDS church does oppress with guilt, Are you doing your home teaching? Are you magnifying your calling(s)? if so, how? Do you read daily scriptures alone and with family? Do you attend all three segments on Sunday? How often do you attend the temple? How many people of non LDS faith did you fellowship in your home this month? Just to name a few requirements of the LDS faith. If you don’t do these, and many other things, you my friend are not living up to your covenants, you are not saved in the LDS faith.
The Temple quiz is the Temple Recommended interview. If you have never been, they ask you questions like are you a full tithing payer, do you follow the Word of Wisdom, etc… do you masturbate.
If you are offended there is not much I can say, but I pray for you, I pray that God will bring you to the light.
“I don’t believe the LDS church is dishonest”
Do you believe omission of critical facts that could alter your free agency to be dishonest?
“Sounds like you’ve been soured because of something… too bad”
I joined the church under false pretenses, I was an ordinance worker in the temple, I held many callings, I have seen the man behind the curtain, I know the church is financially motivated. You could say I was soured by the Church itself. I now have a new mission, one that I am just learning of, I kinda feel into the position. I now help others in my home town who decide to leave the faith.
As Mormons are, I once was; as I am now, Mormons may become ~
Michael P- Interview… got it, never heard of a quiz. I guess I am on a website that makes casual things that we find sacred. I’ll try to figure out what you’re talking about before I ask questions… my bad.
Kevin- Your articles made sense, and but it’s obviously written in a way to make those beliefs sound negative. I could poke holes in your belief about the trinity… when that belief was created, who created it, etc. So I can make the same argument… that the invented Christ of the Nicean Creed is not the same as the true Christ, or LDS Christ as you’ve termed.
The missionaries never told me about seeing stones. However, I read about all of that far before I met the missionaries, in a class that was put together by my preacher who was trying to disprove the mormon faith. I found it funny that people spent so much time trying to disprove someone else, instead of focusing on what they believed in. That drove me to learn more… the missionaries taught the basics, but I already had a good idea of these things you speak of. As far as the apostles are concerned… ummm… “this is kettle…”… Many of the apostles are independently wealthy, and live far more meager lives than what they would have. Don’t worry, i’ve met several of them, and even been to one of their homes… i’m well aware of the churches willingness to support their leaders. Once again, you make it sound so negative. Everything that drove me to The Church was from contentious groups like this one. Interesting.
Is there going to be a post about the Adam God theory…? I’d love to discuss. Don’t worry… I’ve heard about that from too many of you crazies already, and then from a local church leader… we’ll focus on that when the post arises (which i’m sure it has in the past).
Welcome Pookachamp,
Mormon Coffee serves up a toxic brew of evangelical religious intolerance and bigotry towards all things Mormon in which mischaracterization, misrepresentation, and general demonization and mocking of the LDS Church, its doctrines and people is the sugar and cream.
Beware of evangelical’s claiming to be ex-mormons – that seems to be a common ploy here at MC.
If you should ever wish to enlighten and fortify yourself against the contra Mormon smears emanating from this website or other similar sites a good point of reference is http://www.fairlds.org which provides excellent detailed analysis and refutations of such smears.
Ciao
Kevin- I think you felt oppressed and guilty because you weren’t willing to do those things. All of those things that you mentioned are GOOD. Genuinely GOOD! Are you seriously trying to tell me that it’s bad for the church to ask you to visit others and bring a spirit filled message into their home each month? Or to magnify a calling? etc. Interesting perspective, but I think those are all pretty GOOD things that you listed.
I know the temple recommend interview… they never asked me if I masturbate. Must be a different interview that I don’t know about.
Your question about omission of facts… the way you posed the question, yes, that would be dishonest. I just don’t believe the church is a dishonest organization, and has not effected my “free agency” at all. If anything, participating in the church has freed me from the false pretense that I am here on this earth to simply say “I believe” and then I’ll be saved… I now know that God wants us to obey the commandments, love our neighbor, etc., and that if I actually DO those things, it’s meaningful. I was taught in my previous life that the commandments didn’t matter, only my faith mattered… WHAT?!>?!?! Didn’t the commandments come from God? (sorry… I digress… we’ll hit that one later.) So… long answer to a short question.
Thanks for the prayers…
St. Crispin…
Thanks, I’ll take a look. Your description has been a direct representation of what I’ve already experienced/read on this website. Although… I find it a great opportunity to dig in and spend time reading and exploring the mysteries of God. HOpefully, I’ll have a spirit of revelation and love that will accompany me.
Pooka, I think you had a poor teacher in your “prior life”. Traditional Christianity, ie not-Mormonism (among others), does not dismiss the commandments. If you care to discuss or find out more about it, let us know. But let me say this to get your thoughts going: since Christ fulfilled the law, what exact commandments are we to obey? In other words, are we to follow those in the Bible, or those from a revealed source that does not mesh with the Bible?
Same thing on the trinity, we’d love to talk about that, too, but there are several threads that discuss it, so I’d recommend you review first.
As to your comment that acting good is good by following the commandments and by doing those things? Trouble is, your faith requires it for salvation, so its not like there is a choice. I’ll give you this verse about such works and such a mindset:
“All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” Is. 64:6.
I ask to know if I misrepresent anything in your faith in this, and of course I present something against your new faith, so don’t even mention that. I just want to know if I misrepresent anything here.
A final point: you say that it is contentious groups like this that led you to the LDS church and the lack of a desire to focus on ones own faith. Did you try to learn your old faith before jumping ship, or was it some sort of “rebellion” or something like that? I guess I am just curious to learn more about your mindset as to why you left…
Michael P-
To answer your questions… We should follow those in the bible. We should also follow those from a revealed source, if that revelation comes from God. (I’m sure we’ll argue about that).
I have spent 20 years learning about the christian religion, and unfortunately, so many different sects, so many different thoughts, so many different feelings, so many different beliefs, but all united in one things… to bad talk/disprove the mormon religion. I found this disturbing. Thanks for the genuine question.
pookachamp – I can see you are a true believer in the LDS Church. No sense quoting scripture, but I do have a question for you. Does it bother you at all that there has not been one archeological discovery that confirms anything mentioned in the Book of Morman (the most correct book ever written according to Joseph Smith). However, the Bible has been used by Muslims to find old cities. I can go to any map and find cities mentioned in the Old Testament.
St Crispin – I’ve read a lot of your posts and I think you are truly a very smart guy. I noticed on all the posts the EV’s as you say, most always quote scripture, but our LDS friends usually never quote from the standard works.
You started on the “castration” thing a while back and I’ve got a question for you: Do you know what an ox is? I’m referring to 1st Nephi 18:25, “And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox and ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold and silver, and of copper.”
— Unless you can enlighten me (I’m not even going talk about the horses) how did they find, in the wild, castrated bulls?
Also in regards to the Word of Wisdom, Matthew 15: 1-11, Jesus speaking to the Scribes and Pharisees (you know, the guys trying to rule by the law) I’ll just quote verse 11 “Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”
Pooka, You keep saying that we are trying to tear down your belief instead of building up ours. Have you not read what your LDS prophets/presidents/Holy books said?
Why if your president and prophet said to do this and I believe it, I am in the wrong?. Let me also add what the apostle Orson Pratt said.
The Seer pg 15.
Notice he is speaking to people of others faiths. And he states he is trying to show they are wrong through talks, but says if we cannot convince you. Well I don’t feel I have persecuted anyone if they disagree. Let me add what else he said.
Orson pratt still pg 15.
Now why can LDS say this but were told to be silent? Why can the LDS attack us but we cannot defend ourselves? Rick b
RIck B- Here you have Two examples of incriminating and rhetorical questions, whose only answers are the outcomes you want.
“Now why can LDS say this but were told to be silent? Why can the LDS attack us but we cannot defend ourselves?”
First, you can come up with all kinds of quotes of individuals that said or did things that you’ll disagree with, and blame the mormon church. That’s probably not the way to approach a theological discussion. Second, I’m sure Joseph Smith’s intent was to allow people to know the whole story… earlier you were saying that the church was hiding stuff… now you’re saying you’re invited into the public and private. Interesting. Third, I have not heard anyone tell you to be silent, nor have I seen (please direct me if I’m wrong) any LDS website that is focused on slandering… or exposing… the mishaps of another religion and their followers. I just don’t see any LDS “attacks” and evangelical “defends”… I only see it the other way.
Now I’m sure someone will say that our claim to be the only true church is an “attack”, and that will be to your own inference. But once again… you don’t see mormons out in front of the local Universal Church/Baptist/Catholic/Islamic/JW/etc. churches picketing, and stirring up issues. I also don’t see evangelicals doing that to other churches just “the poor picked on Mormon Church.”
Did I dodge your question? Am I dishonest yet? The way this website seems to be scripted, I will be coined as dishonest sooner rather than later.
Larry Clark- To answer your question. I believe there has been some archeological basis for the BofM, but NO, it doesn’t bother me that everything hasn’t been discovered yet. I’m sure there will be a thread for this topic. Once again, not a genuine question, but an incriminating question from the panel.
Wolves in sheep’s clothing… praying for me. Thanks,
So Pooka,
This is not LDS attacking us, this is honest Christ like loving Actions?
Poo, you said, “Kevin- I think you felt oppressed and guilty because you weren’t willing to do those things” I did all those things, for a long time. But I saw how members treated members when someone was not able to complete their home teaching. They laid a big guilt trip on them, it was disgusting.
Really Poo, I never felt Oppressed or guilty, I was stating that I was free from that toxic environment. Do you see the difference?
I was asking YOU, if you do those things, Maginify your calling, home teaching, etc…, to the best of your ability, day in and day out, every minute of your existence? If you do not, you are failing according to your Church.
Today, I do a lot of things for my fellow man, but now I serve them because I am save, not because I am trying to work out my own salvation. Do you see the difference? Do you see how one is oppressive and the other is free agency at its best?
If you have been to the temple recommend interview, then you have been asked, “Are you Chaise?” Stake presidents, namely the Minneapolis Stake president will dive further into this question probing deeper. Unfortunately this never happened to me, but too a few good and trust worthy friends; I wish he would have tried to talk to me like that, I would have a few questions to ask him. Also, if you have children under the age of 13, someday they will have a conversation with your Bisphop about sex, I hear it is very detailed especially with girls.
So Poo, Do you know that Emma never agreed to polygamy, which is a requirement for plural marriage according to Joe himself, he was breaking his own law. Did you know any of the other statements I made, The magic stone, the face in the hat translation, etc…
I am still waiting on your explanation on the articles that I posted for you. I would really like to hear your perspective, this is your opportunity to justify your Jesus, seize the moment, please. Are those articles wrong? Do they misrepresent the LDS Org? If so,how
Kevin,
You are equating people with the church when you make the comment “But I saw how members treated members when someone was not able to complete their home teaching. They laid a big guilt trip on them, it was disgusting.”
When I was Elders’ quorum president I held private interviews about the home teaching asking how their families were functioning and if any needed help. If they said they had not done their home teaching I asked if there was anything I could help them with to get them out. I never pushed, cajoled or humiliated nor did I do a guilt trip on them.
If anyone tried the ‘guilt trip’ on me, especially when one quorum president put the home teaching up on a board for all to see, I pointed them to D&C 121:36-39 “That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God. We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.” highlighting what I have emphasised.
There is a right way and a wrong way to get people out home teaching and from the looks of things you have seen the wrong way. But as I said, it is the people that are doing it, not the church as you are implying.
Ralph, the LDS Org is the sum of the people who attend, manage, and lead. The church is of man and for man. I was not in a unique situation, what I was talking about is Rocky Mountain Mormon Culture to the core.
When someone talks about the LDS org. they are talking about the people, you cannot separate the two entities.
And thank you for admitting that their are guilt tactics. Also note, I am not saying this approach to leadership is unique to the LDS, many organization use the same method; but that doesn’t make it any more right.
You spoke up, and I applaud you for that, I had to do a lot of “standing up” in my old ward. But think of those who do not do the standing, they suffer in their own world, this is oppression built by guilt, not everyone has the fortitude to do what you have done. The Head shed in Salt lake knows this is going on and they do nothing to change it. First this is just one example, not encompassing. So as a micro chasm of continuation, this sums up the cause and effect of how a organization led by fear, omission of truths, and falsifying authority leads to emotional destruction.
I will concede that LDS members do not recognize or are willing to admit to the above statement.
Pooka, you gave me two examples and said this,
The quotes I post are from LDS PROPHETS AND PRESIDENTS, So I can blame the church if it is the Church that is saying them, Hows that being Wrong?
Then you said
Really? That was Joe’s intent? If that was then You need to prove it. You said, I’m sure, but yet your not 100 percent sure, then Like you have been asked Before, BY said ADAM IS OUR GOD, And OUR SALVATION hangs upon believing this. That seems pretty clear that was BY intent, Yet many LDS deny that was what BY really meant.
LDS do the same with Joe and other Prophets, We quote word for word, but if LDS dont like it, then they tell us were wrong, Dont agree, Prove me wrong, Give me examples, I gave you one with Adam God. Rick b
I remember going for a bishops interview. One of the questions was, did I do drugs. I said no (because I didn’t). For some reason, he figured I was lying about it, so for the next 10 minutes, he grilled me about lying and where that leads (hell). Then, he asked me if I did drugs again. My answer of course, was the same.
pookachamp, do you have children? there is probably a reason why you want to be involved with an organization that really puts the heat on to be perfect.
however, there’s a big difference between training your child right, praying over the child and entrusting his/her path to God, and trusting God to do what’s best
and
making covenants that you can and will live up to the letter of the law (which has been made impossibly hard) or else your soul belongs to Satan. This is not a threat, we’re talking about. It’s a covenant between you and the mormon god. It’s binding. If you haven’t read “The Miracle of Forgiveness” by Prophet Spencer Kimball, you should. It is very detailed about how, if you sin after repenting, all of your old sins come back on you. It also says that god can see the itty bitty specks of sin that you don’t know are there, and holds you accountable for them. There is absolutely NO WAY to make it to heaven, having gone through the LDS temple and made the covenants.
Enki, I know what the LDS church lets people think. However, in it’s official writings and most sacred ceremonies, the idea is “not perfect? not going to heaven.”
Set Free- No children. No LDS prophet has said that there is absolutely NO WAY to make it to heaven, and we don’t believe or teach that. So that is a lack of understanding on your part of the very basic truth.
Kevin- Just because members treat members badly, doesn’t mean the gospel is a hoax. People are imperfect in our church… so what? I believe many “christian” people or members of other religious sects are also “imperfect” and may offend. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You asked if I do those things, and I do. Am I failing when I don’t do them? Yes… so what’s the problem? God gives us commandments for a reason… not just to leave them by the wayside and do nothing. So if you are a murderer, in my book, you’re failing to do what God has asked you to do. If you don’t do Hometeaching, then I believe the same… just a different degree. Is home teaching a bad thing? If it is a good thing, should we not seek to do our home teaching? If it is a good thing, then why would we not consider ourselves in defiance if we don’t do it?
That’s very kind of you to serve your neighbor. When I was not a member of the church… that was my answer too. I found it hollow and meaningless, almost a cop out… but that was my experience.
The question is not are you “chaise”, it is “Do you follow the law of Chastity?” Once again, if one person misuses power… I don’t believe that the whole church is at fault/false. I’ve never heard of any 13 year old girls getting a sex talk from the bishop… none of my friends have ever had that experience.
I read the book Rough Stone Rolling, which described the stone, hat, etc. I know it very well. Does that situation bother you?
I thought I already stated that the articles are accurate… but you’re missing the point. THe way they are written is incriminating… it talks about good, truth, and wisdom and turns it into devilish, slander, and bigotry. There’s a difference between stating a fact and incrimination
Rick B a.k.a. Judge of Man – I’m sorry, but I’m not being dishonest. I have said nothing of dishonesty on this website. But thanks for the accusation/judgement.
To your second post… I don’t need to prove anything. I’m hear to defend what I believe to be true. Unfortunately, in my short time here, I’ve seen two types of “ground” that my words may fall on… rocky and “weedy”. So I’m assuming any “proof” will fall on deaf ears. I don’t get your inquiry about me proving something… I can’t prove Joseph Smith’s intent, just like I can’t prove Christ’s intent in words that we find in the Bible. But I can have faith in basic principles that lead us towards salvation. Can you prove that your intent in posting to this website is pure? Would you like a sign for proof?
Do you see any problem with what you are saying? You are telling me that I do what you do, and you do what I do… you pick and choose what you want, interpret or twist however you want, and then come up with a conclusion. Anyone can do that… and be “right” in their own mind. Do you believe God can reveal truth to us through the spirit? We can talk about the Adam God theory on a thread dedicated to that… my impression however, is that it won’t matter what explanation we/I give… you’ll still be critical and not believe. Am I wrong? “Prove” me wrong…
Set Free-
The miracle of forgiveness is a great book!