I read an article about repentance in the August 2009 Ensign magazine. “Mending Quilts, Mending Lives” illustrates the idea of repentance in a story about a damaged quilt.
While making a quilt, one of the quilters accidentally put a hole in the fabric when she carelessly handled a pair of scissors. The author wrote,
“We were all upset and knew the quilt was ruined. I remember my grandmother telling us not to worry because with iron-on tape and some careful ‘finagling’ she would be able to make the hole almost invisible. Sure enough, she fixed it, and although a patch now covered the unsightly hole, we had to look closely to find it” (page 16).
As the story unfolded, 37 years later the author of the Ensign article decided to use the quilt in a Young Women’s meeting to teach about life and repentance. When she looked for the patch that had repaired the quilt, she could not find it. She wrote,
“Then I was reminded of the words in Doctrine and Covenants 58:42: ‘Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.’ I knew what I needed to share with the young women… Just as I had been unable to find the patch in the quilt, so it is with our lives–if we truly repent, it can be as if a sin had not been committed and even the Lord will remember it no more” (page 17).
As I read this, it made me think a bit about the Mormon perspective and teaching on repentance. The words that follow the Doctrine and Covenants passage that the author quoted (D&C 58:43) explains what it is (in Mormonism) to “truly repent.”
“By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins–behold, he will confess them and forsake them.”
The LDS pamphlet “Repentance Brings Forgiveness” clarifies the Mormon position on this:
“Abandonment of Sin…The forsaking of sin must be a permanent one. True repentance does not permit making the same mistake again.”
Because, if sin is not permanently abandoned, the former sins return:
“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God” (Doctrine and Covenants 82:7).
It has been taught that,
“We also have to forsake the sin and never to repeat it not even in our minds. …In order to remain forgiven we must never commit the sin again” (Mormon Missionary Discussion F, Uniform System for Teaching Families. 1981, pp. 35-36).
And,
“Those who receive forgiveness and then repeat the sin are held
accountable for their former sins” (Gospel Principles, 1997, page 253).
So if the quilt in the Ensign story represented a real life, it would not have one patched tear in the fabric, but hundreds — maybe thousands. There would be patches upon patches upon patches. Indeed, there might be more patches than quilt!
And herein lies the problem with Mormonism’s impossible promises of forgiveness and cleansing. In real life, relying on what Mormonism says God requires for “true repentance,” it can never be. The frequency and depth of our sin is more than can ever be patched and repaired.
The Bible presents God’s forgiveness this way:
“He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:10-12).
God does not patch us up and send us on our way to see how well we’ll do. Instead, this is what He does for us:
“[I]f anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).
God does not merely repair our sin-torn souls. He reweaves the fabric of our lives, replacing the beat up, stained and battered cloth with a beautiful new quilt of His own design.
Michael P,
“I think the testimony of those Mormons who have left the church (what wonderful stories!) shows that beneath the rosy veneer of Mormon faith is a guilt driven program where people feel compelled to work for their faith.”
I agree with that. I always found it frustrating that everything one did had to be for ‘building the kingdom of god’. The example I gave was of my mother telling me that every tip I made bagging groceries was going to my missionary fund. She said it likely only a parent could say it, that ‘there will be no discussion about this’ tone. It totally goes against many things which mormons are supposed to believe in. Like responsibility, stewardship, free agency etc… I was a young teenager, and not particularly interested in saving up for a mission. I wanted to earn my own money so I could do with it what I wanted. Thats healthy. Was I ready for such responsibility? I would like to think yes, otherwise I wouldn’t have been interested in doing it. BUT I quickly lost interest because I was working too hard for a cause I didn’t believe in. I really knew it at the time that I didn’t believe in it, but it just wasn’t safe to express disbelief and be myself. I even tried to supress my disbelief as much as I could to survive.
Yes, in general I was taught that you simply weren’t going to make it in the world without the church.
This reminds of a class that has gotten off task. Just what exactly was our topic of discussion. Some have to run off on tangents. My old greek teacher use to say, I have to run that rabbit trail until I catch it and kill it”
Jason lets leave that rabbit for another time. Not that any of us shy away from the Biblical doctrine of the trinity. (Don’t take the bait!)
Now what was your view on the article? Please enlighten us or do you not have any comments on the subject.
All,
I want to thank all that have shared their testimony of what Christ has done in your lives. You have encouraged me to continue witnessing,praying and loving my LDS family, friends and others to Christ. It is awesome to hear how our great Savior Jesus Christ still reaches the LOST.Hallelujah for the Cross.
I’ll try and clarify what I said earlier about this being slightly exaggerated. We teach that nothing unclean can enter into the presence of Heavenly Father (ie God). We teach that we all fall short of the 100% that He requires so there is no way in hell that we will reach the CK by ourselves. Jesus came as our Saviour and Redeemer and Mediator between us and God. His atonement paid for our sins in full. All God wants from us now is to have true faith in Jesus. Now except for the CK, this all is similar to what you believe as well, right? Now here is where I believe the difference lies – the application of the Atonement. I keep referring to a story in the GP manual about a person who was deep in debt and a friend bailed him out. The friend then became the debtor and the person had to pay the friend back. This friend is Jesus. Jesus has asked us to do certain things if we truly believe in and love Him, like doing good to others, living a good life that emulates His own, etc. These are ‘works’ that we LDS see as necessary for salvation. But we also believe that Jesus has sked us to do other things, like get baptised, sealed in the temple, etc – BUT we are to do these because of our faith in and love for Him. Without that faith and love whatever we do will not get us anywhere. In the Bible is tells us again and again to endure to the end – which is why we ‘push’ keeping the commandments AFTER becoming converted (ie having true faith) because we believe that salvation comes on the day of judgment, not before as you teach. This is where all of the above about not repeating the same sin after repenting comes in because once we repent we rely on Jesus crucifixion, if we repeat the sin we are re-crucifying Him for that same sin. But because Jesus is our debtor, His requirements are easier than God’s. He requires 100% of what we can do. So if we can only make 1 cent for a $1000000 home, that’s what He will accept. For those who can make 10 cents He requires that amount.
But He requires no more AND NO LESS than our best – BUT it must be done with true faith in Him. As He says in the Bible, His yoke/burden is light, so there is still a yoke/burden we have to carry for Him, but it is not as heavy as the one Go requires for all those who do not believe in Jesus. To follow Jesus in faith is to do what He wants us too do, to follow His example and it requires sacrifice at times, as Jesus taught. When the young rich man asked what he needed to do to be saved Jesus told him 2 things – first keep the commandments, second sell all (which is sacrificing), give the money to the poor and follow Him. When He talks about those who are going the Kingdom of God He talks about 4 groups of people – 1st separation is between those who recognise Him as Lord, 2nd separation is those who recognise Him AND do the will of the Father. So He is teaching that it is not enough just to admit/recognise that He is Lord. He teaches that His sheep will be those who feed the hungry visit the sick, etc.And in the Beatitudes He teaches the qualities of His true believers and those who will ultimately be God’s. So there are things that need to be ‘done’ which we will be judged by. Unlike Evs, we do not teach that one is saved straight away, we leave that until the day of judgment. So in our beliefs no one loses their ‘state of salvation’ because no one has ‘it’. But they can lose their faith and their way through sin and non-repentance. But all those ‘little’ sins, like white-lies, etc, Jesus can and will cover if we have kept a good life. The major ones need bit more than just a prayer of forgiveness.
And RickB, one can be forgiven of murder, just not a person who has accepted the truth and become converted, because then they know that it is wrong through the guidance of the Spirit and in murdering they are denying the Holy Ghost which is the unforgivable sin.
Hope this makes sense.
Jason, it’s interesting that you would reference a nazi and God in the same sentence: “he and Heinrich Himmler have a quick high five?” Why did the Mormon Church do a baptism for Adolph Hitler? Don’t you think you should at least do two for someone of his stature?
– Please look at the following versus concerning your greatest commandment, Psalm 49: 7-8, Isaiah 39: 18, Ecclesiastes 9: 5, and Hebrews 9: 27. God is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living Mark 12: 25-27.
– The Jews officially protested, to the LDS Church, baptisms for people killed during the holocaust.
However, I know your are so defensive, you won’t even look at the scriptures mentioned, here or in any of the posts. But, the word of God stands forever, Isaiah 40:8, 1 Peter 1:25. You can mock God all you want, but, the good news is, even you have the potential to be saved.
Ralph,
The example you gave in the GP casts Heavenly Father in the role of man’s creditor and Jesus as the mediator.
With your example,”Jesus takes over our debt and we have to accept him as creditor.”
So we are saved from “prison” and then have to pay the debt we owe to Jesus and he will set the terms.
So Jesus assumes our loan, refinaces it, and spreads out the payments. So Jesus becomes our creditor.We now have all eternity to pay this back because he conquered death.
Another illustration that is similar to this one is by Joseph Smith, quoted in Sharing the Gospel.
“So, the effect of Adam’s transgression was to place all of us in the pit with him. Then the Savior comes along, not subject to that pit, and lowers the ladder. He comes down into the pit and makes it possible for us to use the ladder to escape.”
The Bible, however, doesn’t say God just made it possile to escape from the pit. It tells us that he lifted us up out of the pit.Ps.40:1-3; Col. 2:13-14.
You see I don’t have too struggle up each of the rungs of the leader. Say I make three rungs and then I sin. Do I go all the way back to the bottom? yes. How utterly miserable and hopeless that is.
According to the Lds doctrine you have to pay this debt and prove that you are worthy. The idea of “you doing your best and Jesus doing the rest”, is not what your church teaches. You must do all that you can. I look at that word all and what I see as well as so many others is that it is utterly impossible to do this. You cannot be perfect. The Bible teaches that the only way is through grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. Your goal is eternal life, exaltation. Christ said throughout his word how this is accomplished. John 6:47, john 5:42, Heb. 10:10-18;Eph 2:7-10; Gal. 3:1-3.
What a burden you must carry.Never knowing his peace and complete forgiveness from the guilt and condemnation of your sin.
Ralph, the problem with you and LDS belief and the teaching from the GP is this, it’s a very heavy burden than no man can lift.
A few reasons why it is a heavy burden.
1. LDS teach, no death bed repentance. You cannot repent because you cannot do all the things that the LDS church asks, like pay tithes, enter the temple and a long list of other stuff.
2. The Bible clearly says, The laws are summed up in this ONE THING, LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD, And if you add the second, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.
The laws of God are easy, just love the Lord and your Neighbor. If you do these, then you wont want to kill or steal or lie or anything else.
3. The LDS harp on doing Works, there is a long hard list of works you must do to be saved, then after that you cannot be sure if your even saved. Why do you LDS insist on ignoring what Jesus said, or after I or others point it out, do you insist on saying God was wrong and here is why.
If you really want to do works to be saved, then here is what Jesus said,
Pretty simple, Just believe on the Son.
Then I am guessing Paul believed Jesus Since the jailer asked Paul, WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED. Paul said BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
Why is is Jesus and Paul say, the Commandments are summed up in LOVE, and to be saved you simply believe. Yet when you ask LDS they give a list so long you can never keep it or do all of it? Rick b
Jason,
Again with the “alien” god thing. When are you going to throw us a bone and admit that the idea of a transcendent deity is not peculiar to just Evangelical Christians?
For those here, both LDS and Christian, who really think that God does not “cast” people into hell? How do you finagle that idea past –
“but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt 8:12
“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!” Lk 5:12
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.” Jn 15:6
What most people want is to do their own thing and spend an eternity in a place not heaven or hell – A third option. No such place exists. God is the God of hell as well as heaven. God creates the consequences; they do not exist outside of Him. People do not wind up in hell, and they sure do not walk right in there. A God with the capacity of love and hate sends them there and keeps them there.
Ralph said, “He requires so there is no way in hell that we will reach the CK by ourselves” If you believe B.Y. you are right, because it is Joseph Smith that has to give his “Consent” (JD 7. 289)
I have never met Jason Rae, I have only read his wittings, which to me sound like the rantings of a twelve year old who does not get his way; which in turn he spouts of mythical descriptions with loaded language, that I assume is, a reaction from his defense mechanism, fostered by the need for filling a vacuous organization.
Therefore I will now believe that Jason is a Transvestite (Second name Rae, typically a females name, the ‘e’ at the end is an effeminate designation) With 13 eyes, 9 fingers, 12 toes, Purple hair, and one big eyebrow. He lives in a cave in Utah, leeches internet access from a local Starbucks, and eats little bunnies for breakfast.
Jason this is not an attack on you, it is an observation with a crazy A** description, which I hope will allow you to see that some of your comments are so outlandish and nonsensical that you loss all creditability. Then when you actually have something to say that contributes to the forum, well, who takes you seriously?
I think a lot of people on here humor you because it is fun poking a stick at you and see what comes out of your mouth next.
David, in the words of your fellow ev Rick B aka the hammer: ” Jason, My God does not toss people into Hell, I really wish you would read the Bible, then I would not need to spoon feed you the truth. ” So you can see Rick B. is breaking from standard evangelical Christianity. I think he understands that it’s the law that puts people in hell not some fascist tyrant ruling the universe. Maybe Rick can spoon feed you as well.
~
Larry clark, I’m mocking the non-human species genderless thug thing that most worship on this board – I have said nothing about the true God in a mocking way nor would I.
~
Kevin, the words I use come straight from your fellow evs. The quote is taken directly from Michael P. with no additions. You need to come to grips with how your fellow Christians think about the nature of God and don’t be shootin the messenger. But at least you’re funny.
Rick B,
You are exactly right on David Ragsdale – Christ wouldn’t even think about freeing him from prison and absolving him of all of his sin of murdering his wife and allow him into His kingdom just for the simple act of acknowledging Christ as his savior – you are right on target. It would make absolutely no sense and God wouldn’t even consider it for a second.
Now if God shows such wisdom in this life why would he suddenly change when Ragsdale crosses into the after life? He wouldn’t. That simple acknowledgment of Christ as his savior doesn’t cut it in this life and it will not be sufficient in the next.
And Rick, just to be 100% clear, I’m not saying Ragsdale can’t be forgiven but rather that God requires more from us than a simple acknowledgement and then all is well.
Ralph,
When we get through all the smoke, normally it’s “so you guys just think you can do whatever you want” that is there at the bottom.
Do YOU know that that’s not what we think? All this “get out of jail free card” talk, with free forgiveness and no works necessary sounds like we are promoting sin.
I want to point out… it’s the same reaction Paul got when he went preaching grace. (Romans 3:8).
How did he reply?
That 1) both we and those who are accusing us of giving license to sin are equally unworthy. There is not a one of us who can achieve our own righteousness.
2) It’s been the same from the beginning… that those who BELIEVE God have HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IMPUTED THEM (He covers them with His own worthiness)
3) That it’s the forgiveness that God that provides that is the beginning of Him being able to transform our lives.
It’s a natural understanding of things that tells us that we have to work hard or we don’t deserve it.
But what God says is, you can’t even begin to try until I am part of it. You need to be freed from guilt and fear and shame, so that you know that you can come to me with everything, and we can begin our walk together.
Paul says that it’s closeness to “the law” that encourages our flesh to sin.
God says, you are far from me. Come, let me clean you up, and dwell in my presence and see what I really had planned for your life.
See the difference?
The LDS plan is one that truly excludes God until absolutely necessary, and that is not what He wants.
Jason,
We are still waiting on that bone. A law puts people into hell? Do tell how a written code has the physical power to thrust someone into hell. This is all a feeble attempt to get God “off the hook” . . . as if he could not do what he wants with His own creation. Which by the way – the same God that created hell and the law also enforces His will.
So Jason, how do you finagle this mechanism outside of God that sends people to hell (after their own choosing) in light of the passages I provided? How can you state that David Ragsdale can be forgiven under LDS soteriology? Would it not be more accurate to state that he could be partially forgiven, as he committed murder and is not eligible for the celestial kingdom?
P.S. “Rick, salvation is an ongoing process of learning and gaining knowledge and growing in the gospel.” – Straight up Gnosticism.
Jason, “The quote is taken directly from Michael P. with no additions. You need to come to grips with how your fellow Christians think about the nature of God and don’t be shootin the messenger”
AS a matter of fact, I was not referring to your quote of Michael’s, I believe you, Jason, first introduced the idea of an alien God, which you later expanded upon in order to make your statement. You first came up with the idea on July 29, as far as I can tell. On July 31st you described God as, “your God might have 8 eye balls one day and wear beefcake pantyhose the next.”
So I am not shooting the messenger, I am exposing him for what he really is, a Twelve year old with a… Ah never mind, you get the point.
Although you have taken Michaels statement, which was in response to your statement to lead others into believing that Michael came up with the idea is lying by omission. Which is the way you want it.
Does this sound familiar to anyone? I believe this is standard practice in the LDS org.
It’s the means to the end, but not by which convenient truth gets you there.
Which coincidently enough address the topic of this thread, repentance. It is all about the convenient truth for the LDS Org. It’s the big, “If Then” statement, by which I mean you can never answer the “then” part of the statement, because a person can never get by the “If”. Aww Cr*p now I am confused.
Jason,
In our everyday lives we all at times use
hyperbole,exaggerating for effect,it’s not
meant to be taken literal etc.
Michael P. is fully capable of sharing the
literal truth about our Creator.
The way you keep using his statement as a
indication of what others believe about God
who have posted on this site is really
disrespectful not to mention dishonest.
You know,Jason,there’s a remedy for whatever
is pulling you down.Please take a moment to
read Matt.11;28-30.
Kevin, David, Mike R, since you guys are all bellyaching about me pointing out your own doctrine will each of you take a few seconds to clear up a few things?
1. Is the evangelical Chrisitian God a non-human species? yes or no
2. Is the evangelical Christian God genderless? yes or no
3. Are we fiat creations of God? yes or no
4. Does the evangelical Christian God personally throw/cast/put His subjects (people) into the fire pits? yes or no
5. And finally what does God look like and if He has 70 eyes do you care? a short sentance or two
~
I would really appreciate you guys setting me straight on these items. Other evs may answer as well so we can clear this up pronto. TIA.
Jason, please don’t be alarmed, your assumption that we are “bellyaching” is mis-centered.
I cannot answer your questions, and I say that with the a most humble heart. I do not have as strong of a relationship with God that I should have, but I am trying. As a matter of fact I don’t even know what my “Spirit” self looks like. I also don’t know how to spilt an atom, but I know it can be done, I have seen what remains afterwards. I do not claim to know what God looks like, his favorite foods, or what his preference of clothing he has. I use the term “his” because that is what is used in the Old and New Testament. With all of Gods infinite power, could he not take any shape that he wishes too.
What I do know, is that the LDS church attempted to confuse me and straight out lied to me about significant facts of their history, and through it all I have come out a better man because I have recognized that I have been saved by Christ and his love for me, inspires me to be a better person and to treat those around me, and strangers alike with kindness, compassion, and charity.
Is this not what Christ is all about?
So I guess I can answer your last question, no matter what shape God decides to take, I will love him the same.
Jason I’ll give it a shot. The only problem is we are talking apples and you are talking oranges (I used to speak oranges myself.
I have to quote the Bible in particular Jesus. John 4:24 God is a spirit and they who worship him MUST worship in spirit and in truth. This kind of takes out most of your argument out since you have to believe Jesus or the LDS version of God. This also explains what it means in Genesis when He said man was made in his likeness “spiritual likeness” the LDS has a preconcieved notion that it is a body.
– What is a spirit? Once again Jesus Luke 24: 36-39, this is where Jesus stood in the mist of the disciples, they were terrified and supposed they had seen a spirit. Jesus tells them to handle me for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have.
– One last verse on God, you quoted it yourself a few days ago. Math 16: 14-18, vs 17: flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father which is in heaven. So Jasan what do you think a spirit looks like?
In regards to hell. Jesus, Math 10:28, “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”
Jesus, Math 23: 33 “ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Luke 12:5, “fear him which after he hath killed, hath power to cast into hell” Jesus, Rev 1:18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, A’men; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Sorry for the Bible thumping. It’s unfortunate but true that Hell is a real place (just read about Lazarus and the rich man Luke 16: 19-31.)
The bible says “for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3: 23), but the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23. Please think about this – The bible says there are gods many and lords many, money is a god to people, sports are a god to people, I shave my god every day. There is only one true God, Isaiah 43: 10-11. You can’t make God out to be man or even dream you can become at god, Romans: 1: 22-23.
Jason,
It seems that you are deliberately trying to
stretch the conversation out as far as you can.
No one here can ” set you straight” on any
matter,you’ll just keep coming up with new
sarcasm and new questions.
God can give you the inner peace and fulfillment
that you need, but you’ll have to ask Him. Jesus
is the answer to your needs.Come to Him as you
are He will meet you.
Jason,
In Matt. 12:34-37 Jesus is speaking and addressing the subject of a tree is known for its fruit.
“O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shat be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
It is not so much the questions you are asking but the tone of them. You show a lack of love for Christ and your fellow man. You are puffed up with pride over your beliefs and speaking condescendingly of others beliefs.
Not that you disagree with EV’s but how you disagree. You are trying to prove a point but your method contradicts your message. If I speak of the love Christ in a harsh way toward a lost man then how am I showing the love of Christ. It’s like I am cutting off my nose to spite my face.”Speaking the truth in Love” should always be our goal.
Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the “heart of the problem is the problem of the heart”. The topic addressed was sin, repentance and forgiveness.
So lets really get to the heart of our problem. It is our sinfulness. God is Holy he cannot allow sin in his prescence. Gods justice demands that sin be dealt with.
Now we can either choose to deal with sin our way or his way. I choose to run to the cross and throw myself on his mercy in the finished work of Christ.
How about you where does your heart stand on these all important topics?
Jason,
I will answer you questions, but you got to start to answer mine or this is the last time for me.
1. Non-human prior to the incarnation. One member of the Trinity took on flesh awhile back and now dwells in bodily form (Col 2:9). So, a qualified “no”.
2. See above. Prior to the incarnation no member of the Trinity had gender. The Son incarnated as male. In general, God has no gender but he is most often identified as male (pronouns and such) and the two dominant metaphors of Him are as a husband and as a father. Although, in a few instances there are feminine allusionss. Again, a qualified “no”
3. A qualified “yes”. God made the stuff (by fiat) that he made us with.
4. God casts people into hell. Whether he physically does it Himself or he has angels do it (kind of like in the parable of the wheat and tares) not sure, but God is responsible for it. So “Yes”.
5. God is immaterial (he does not need flesh to exist) , but he has the ability to take on flesh and enter into his creation. The Son took on man flesh. I do not believe that He would incarnate in a monstrous form, as his theophanies and incarnation(s) have purpose and I do not see the purpose in that. So, theoretically he could (he is powerful enough to do it) but I do not think that he would.
Pretty much traditional Christianity. You could have read the Westminster confession and came out with similar answers. That’s two bones you owe me now.
The “what is God” debate keeps raging, I see. I feel a bit responsible for the extension of this debate…
I’d answer the 5 questions Jason has presented in much the same manner as others here, even though I did say something outrageous earlier. That, of course, was only to say that I really don’t care about what God looks like. I do think he is quite beautiful, and am reminded of the words of the Casting Crowns’ song– “I Can Only Imagine” when I think about finally getting to see him in all his glory.
I don’t think I have much more to add to them, as I don’t think God is a human like we are human… He’s God. I don’t think God has a gender, though we commonly call him by male descriptors and he did take the form of a man when on earth. We are his creations and we have not existed along with him from the beginning. Don’t know if God himself sends em down, or not, but that it happens. And I answered the what does he look like above.
But I am curious as to why the obsession on what he does look like. Personally, I’m uncomfortable putting God in a box that must fit my understanding, and feel that this is what the desire to make God a human, of the same species, is: a desire to fit God into our human ideals.
David said
I think I am missing your point here, can you better explain? Thanks, Rick b
I’m not sure why LDS posters here are objecting to the idea that it is God who sends people to hell. Its part of their own traditions, for example;
“Hell is not a satanic invention, it is part of God’s plan.” Believing Christ, the Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News by Stephen E Robinson,
Deseret Book Company 1992
Now I ‘get’ it that within any movement you’re going to have different people with different perspectives and views. Honestly, that’s OK with me.
What I find objectionable is the promotion of the myth that the LDS Church has a single, identifiable, homogeneous theology that’s accepted by all its members; and that other Churches are false because of their theological differences.
What is it that unites Mormons within the LDS movement? It cannot be a common theology or ideology because of the vast oscillations documented in Mormon history. The one commonality they do have is membership to the organization, which is maintained by a dynastical priesthood.
Here is a key difference between Mormonism and Evangalical Christianity; in Mormonism, its an allegiance to the Mormon Church that binds the people together, but in Evangelical Christianity, its an allegiance to the person of Jesus Christ that binds us together.
And that’s why we worship the Risen Christ, not an earthly organization.
Kevin,
I can answer what God’s favourite foor is. It’s in the Bible. In fact the Bible describes a food fight that includes this food type. Look at Zechariah 5:1-2. God’s favourite food is rolls ! 🙂
Oh, it doesn’t work in the internet version that this site picks up 🙁 . Go look at the KJV, it makes more sense then.
Rick,
I can see the source of your confusion. I should have trimmed the quote shorter and left out your name. I was addressing Jason’s view of salvation (which is representative of the general LDS view), which is not part of the faith handed down to the disciples. It is not the faith of the primitive Christians and it has way more in common with Gnosticism of the 2 century on. Gnosticism is an old heresy that keeps showing up. The idea that “salvation” hinges on an individual’s attainment and utilization of knowledge is the core of Gnosticism.
Ralph, cute 🙂
Martin, so true:
“Here is a key difference between Mormonism and Evangelical Christianity; in Mormonism, its an allegiance to the Mormon Church that binds the people together, but in Evangelical Christianity, its an allegiance to the person of Jesus Christ that binds us together.
And that’s why we worship the Risen Christ, not an earthly organization.”
And may I add… it’s where we get our security as well. Mormons from LDS church membership, Evangelicals from God’s promises in Christ Jesus.
Jason Rae,
Perhaps one of my most spiritual experiences in my life was while eating an especially good cherimoya. I think I felt accepted and loved for the first time. I felt the presence of pure love, it wasn’t human, nor did I feel that this spiritual presence could be limited to any particular spiritual tradition. Mark Twain called the cherimoya “the most delicious fruit known to men.”
The Sacramento Daily Union, October 25, 1866
Contrast what he said about the book of Mormon. “The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so “slow,” so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print.”
Mark Twain on the BOM – 1861
Roughing It – Chapter 16, pages 107-115
Ralph & Kevin,
I would imagine that some type of fruit, or fruit in general is gods favorite. Preferably natural wild, or ‘heirloom’, not hybrid #5673g with incorporated halibut genes.
To all,
As far as I know ‘hell’ as it appears in various christian texts is a stolden and somewhat altered concept. Wikipedia (under tartarus)has an interesting commentary on tartarus and how it fit into greek mythology, if anyone is seriously interested, look it up.
“In Greek mythology, Tartarus is both a deity and a place in the underworld even lower than Hades.”
As far as I know ‘hel’ and ‘Hades’ are also dieties and places. In some mythologies the underworld is seen as a somewhat cheery place. I am not exactly sure if there is a difference between the underworld and hel in some non-christian myths.
A VERY interesting assoicated word is PONTUS.
“In Greek mythology, Pontus (or Pontos (Πόντος), English translation: “sea”) was an ancient, pre-Olympian sea-god, one of the protogenoi, the “first-born”. Which puts the following scripture in an interesting light.
Rev. 20: 13,14
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.”
I would note that there is a Nordic Goddess ‘Hel’, and there is also a personification of death in some myths.
“In English, death is often given the name the “Grim Reaper” and from the 15th century onwards came to be shown as a skeletal figure carrying a large scythe and clothed in a black cloak with a hood.”
About a year ago,I recieved an attack by a spiritual force. I believe it to have been ‘death’. Its description is the closest to what I experienced. Except that the skelton didn’t have a scythe or a cloak, but instead was billowing blue flames and smoke.
Enki wrote “About a year ago,I recieved an attack by a spiritual force. I believe it to have been ‘death’. Its description is the closest to what I experienced. Except that the skelton didn’t have a scythe or a cloak, but instead was billowing blue flames and smoke.”
Wow!
Enki,
This isn’t the right forum for you to get help with this particular experience/encounter. You need something more than a theological debate. I know you are wary of Christianity and Churches, but I trust that there are people here who can get you in touch with responsible Christian counsellors who can help you deal with this, if you want. Please seek help. This is not something you should have to deal with on your own.
Please know that whatever you experienced or encountered, it has been defeated by the person of Jesus. Not a program, nor a Church, nor a movement, but the Name above all Names, who died and in dying, defeated death; who rose to life, and in rising gives life to us who deserve death.
‘For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.’ (Romans 12:38-39).
David, thanks for answering. You said your answers were “Pretty much traditional Christianity” but I’m not 100% sure about that.
1. You said “a qualified no” – however it is very clear ev doctrine that God is a non-human species. Seems that you are breaking from the ev mindset here.
2. You said “a qualified no” – pretty much every ev on the board says God does not have gender.
3. You said yes God made stuff by fiat. Even basic physics proves matter is not created or destroyed but only rearranged or converted into energy. God works with matter that is as eternal as He is.
4. You said yes God or one of this cronies personally casts people into the fire pits to be burned alive. On earth we call that the greatest evil known to man. We associate it with fascism, Nazism etc.
By your own soteriology God must have billions upon billions burning alive right now and only a relatively few are actually saved – a “plan of damnation” it seems and the structure of your afterlife seems to be very a Third Reich state. Thankfully we know that heaven is far more sensible than that.
Even Rick B. disagrees with you on this one. “My God does not toss people into Hell, I really wish you would read the Bible, then I would not need to spoon feed you the truth.” So who has it right?
5. This one seems to contradict 1. “God is immaterial” so therefore it would clearly not be human. Thus very very alien to the human experience. We also know that at least the door is open for the ev God to have 70 eye balls. You guys are at least open to that being the case when you hit the afterlife.
This has made me see far clearer than ever before “If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves. – JS” Indeed.
Jason,
Let me be a little more clear on a few things here.
1. Stop playing these games of saying us EV’s do not agree so we all wrong and your right.
How about you answer as to why your prophets have said they are the only ones who can speak for God and your prophets can NEVER lead the church astray.
Yet many LDS on this forum even you have said in so many words and a round about way that the LDS
prophets are wrong or were wrong on many subjects.
So you get on us when we have stated many times, we might not agree on everything but we speak only for ourselves, yet LDS prophets speak for God and you guys dont agree.
2. Read the bible, but since we both know you will not, let me give you the exact verses.
Hell was created for the Devil and His Angels, not man.
God says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Now this is not physical death but eternal death. Yes God will pick you up and toss you into the lake, I dont see people jumping in on their own.
You seem to mis-understand what I am saying. Yes God puts them into hell, but it is Mans choice to go to hell, God does not want them to go to hell, He died to save them, If God wanted us to go to Hell, then He could have simply stayed away from the Cross and never died. But He did die for us, so now it comes down to us choosing, Him or Hell.
Like it or not, their is no 3rd choice given in the Bible, Heaven or Hell is it, and Hell is Hell because we are and will be separated from the God that created us to spend eternity with Him. Rick b
enki,
WOW, that’s a pretty impressive account you gave regarding that spiritual entity that appeared to you. On the one hand it could be something like sleep/dream paralysis (which I’ve had myself-having a sleep disorder) or it could be a demonic presence. I’d be very curious as to what precipitated this event. I’d want to know if you’ve had a history of playing around the edges of the occult. Sometimes activities that can seem pretty innocent can be dangerous. Get my e mail from the moderator if you want to talk about it.
Jason,
I am still waiting for answers to my questions. God is non-human. My answer is right inline with what Christians have taught through the ages. I am beginning to wonder if you know the meaning of the word “no”. Do you really believe that Ev’s don’t believe in the incarnation?
Basic physics? The answer to whether God is finite or infinite will not be settled in a lab. The way we know Him is by His revealing Himself to us. Thankfully He has done this and He told us He is eternal and has the power to create things out of nothing.
So a certain proposition is untrue simply because it is not attractive? Casting people into hell would make God a Nazi and Nazi’s are bad so it simply cannot be. Is that the argument? I hope you truly see how weak that argument is. As for hell, we know about it based on God’s revealed word. It is real and many are going there.
I could see how casting people into hell seems like a tyrannical act seeing as how you do view God as being on par with a benevolent dictator on earth. If men could consign people to hell it would be unjust as they are but men. Thankfully there is a God and there is a difference between Creator and creation. Mormonism tries to do a way with this distinction to its peril.
Keep in mind, even in Mormonism there is a classical hell (outer darkness) and some people are going there (though very few). Isn’t that Nazi like? Why the few and not others? Oh yeah, because God said so.
Rick says “My God does not toss people into Hell, I really wish you would read the Bible, then I would not need to spoon feed you the truth” . . . and he also says that – “Other Believers cannot speak for me . . . Posters on here cannot speak for me . . . What another christian said is beside the point.” I am sure Rick and I disagree on this one and that is fine; Christians disagree on stuff just as Mormons do not agree on everything.
continued
The debate on this issue started long before this thread. However in case you, Jason, are still wondering, “ who has it right?” The answer is Dave 🙂
Rick, I agree that some Mormons try to hold us to a level of Catholicity that does exist in their ranks. Jason tries to make an issue out of 2 lay Ev’s disagreeing yet Mormons across the board reject much of what B. Young said even if what he stated was done at general conference.
David, when I said Other posters cannot speak for me and you seem to imply you do not agree with me, here are a few examples of what I am talking about.
These are non-salvation issues, but are issues just the same. I am pre-trib in view, I believe the Bible is clear women cannot be pastors, I believe the bible is clear we can drink alcohol just not get drunk.
Now their are many Christians that hold a mid or post trib view, many believe women can be pastors and many teach we cannot drink any at all.
How do people figure if they believe this stuff they can then speak for me? They cannot, because we do not agree.
Now lets look at Mormonism, Ezra Taft Benson taught the 14 fundamentals of the Mormon Church. At the time he was not a “Prophet” But he did teach theses things.
David, my point in all this is that the inspiration behind fascism, Nazism, Khmer Rouge, Stalinist Russia etc etc is clearly not God but Satan. And that the doctrines of Satan, ideas, punishments, concepts and government of people have crept into your theology. The fingerprints match up.
In Restored Christianity God does not cast anyone into Hell rather they put themselves there. The “lake of fire” is metaphorical and denotes a state of being in one of God’s kingdoms. God has a salvation plan for everyone. Same with outer darkness, God does not personally put the person there as that too is a state of being away from the society and government of Heaven.
If you want more evidence that your entire salvation world view is communist just take a gander at Rick B’s statement:
” This guy (child molester) targets girls from newborn to 11 years old. I have been very honest in telling non-believing family, friends and friends who are Christians. I have said over and over in a very public way, this guy touches my Daughter, NO ONE and I mean no one will ever find his body.
Sad as it is, I can make this happen, and I will be honest, these thoughts are thoughts of Murder and thats a sin, so everything I say or think this I commit murder in my heart, so I know I can be and am forgiven by My God. ”
I assume from this that Rick B. could kill his wife and already be forgiven by his supreme commander, God. Now, do any level of research on the fascist state and you will find a very similar situation. Those that acknowledge and obey the supreme ruler can do pretty much whatever they want with impunity. No penalty. Just as Rick B. so clearly explained.
So you can see the fascism runs deep in your theology, I’m not making this stuff up.
Cont,
While Ezra was not a prophet when he spoke this stuff, he did make some very bold statements and after he became the prophet he never said I was wrong on these statements, he let them stand. And he was rather bold in saying our salvation hangs upon these.
So it seems while much error has been taught as doctrine by LDS prophets and said your salvation hangs upon these error filled teachings, Many LDS deny it, even Jason, But cry over us EV’s stating we dont agree on everything.
Remember number 14, Reject the prophets and SUFFER. You LDS reject the prophets all the time. Rick b
Jason,
Are you stupid or just act that way?
First you said
Jesus spoke about it more than heaven and in a real way and talked about the rich man in torment. Then the apostles spoke a lot about it.
Then yes I was being Honest about a child molester hurting my Child. What I did NOT SAY or even imply was, God said to kill him or God said it would be OK for me to do it.
I said it was wrong and I was committing murder in my Heart and that was wrong, but I was being honest unlike you. Yet the Bible is clear, I can be forgiven for murder if I repent of it, but thats a big IF. I need to repent.
Also you clearly Show just how blind and ignorant of God and hell you really are.
You claim God is like Nazi’s, Yet God warned us of the hell to Come, God gave us a sacrifice payment to pay the debt, His own Son. God made a way to avoid hell, then God uses people down through History to tell us of His son and Hell and how to avoid it.
Hitler did non-of that, even lied about what his plans were, so I guess you can keep telling stories and use your website to keep pushing lies and false prophets. Rick b
Jason,
“In Restored Christianity God does not cast anyone into Hell rather they put themselves there”
But they still go there. They would rather not go to hell; they do not have the option (the choice) of doing what they want and still abiding in a nice place. Someone’s or something’s will is imposed on them. If god were truly loving (aka what we want him to be) there would be no hell at all. Many a universalist has condemned any concept of hell altogether. Why not compare God to Stalin simply because they both have killed people?
Rather than just asserting and reasserting that our beliefs are wrong simply because they are not yours, you should try to show me where you are right and I am wrong through are shared canon (the Bible). I would even welcome an historical approach to the issue. Your current approach is weak and largely irrelevant. How about you start defending your position by answering my questions.
Lastly, it is your hard-nosed, moralistic, 19th century temperencesque theology that does not allow for those who have committed murder to ever be fully forgiven. I guess Moses and David are SOL.
Rick, Hell is very real, I didn’t say it wasn’t but you need to let go of the physical fire pit where billions of people are burning alive put there by the alien God.
So, you are saved but you are not already forgiven for future sins?? You seem quite different than a lot of evs I’ve talked to – many believe that once they are saved they are saved for good and that future sins are 100% covered. You do not agree?
Jason, How about like David said, Stop dodging Questions and keep asking more, how about answering ours.
If you claim Hell is really not burning, then Why did Jesus say the Rich man is in flames and being in torment? It seems this was a real story and not made up like a parable, Since he used real people, real names and even in the story, the rich man was asking for a drop of water on his tongue. Then when Jesus in revelation talks about the beast and false prophet being tossed into the lake of fire, it talks about them being tormented for those 1000 years, and after the 1000 year reign and more people are added, the beast and false prophet are still their being tormented. If thats not real then I guess we cannot trust anything. Rick b
David, you said I owed you answers to two questions, do you mind restating the two questions? TIA.
A very quick observation: why is it that it is very rare to get a direct response to the charges against Mormonism? I see a lot of deflecting and avoidance of things that are very clearly stated.
Alas, I know Christians can be guilty of the same, but I truly see a lot of more of it from Mormons.
Funny how LDS avoid questions, Many times they even leave this site and wait till topics are long gone, but then they turn around and claim how Christ like and loving they are. Jason is nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing and he knows I can see right throw the blood covered skin, and I’m not afraid of the big bad wolf. Rick b
Jason,
How about you answer this question that I have asked more times than I can count – Will you admit that the idea of a transcendent God is not particular to just Evangelical Christianity, but rather enjoys popular numeric support well into the billions (quite possibly the majority of mankind)?
David, yes I think that goes without saying and I fully understand my position in the grand scheme of things as being clearly in the minority. If we were to graph it it would be the tiniest of blips or not even visible. However, I reject this particular majority opinion across all faiths and I reject that God is “beyond the grasp of the human mind”. I agree that God is infinite but I also know that man is infinite as well which as you know implies a grand potential and equality with God himself.
~
Rick B, I bekon you come out of the trailer park. Popular evs Carl Mosser and Paul Owen would eat you for lunch.
“Mormon Scholarship, Apologetics, and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?”
http://www.cephas-library.com/mormon_apologetics_losing_battle.html
You fit right in with this Mosser/Owen category:
” Our fourth conclusion is that at the academic level evangelicals are losing the debate with the Mormons. We are losing the battle and do not know it. In recent years the sophistication and erudition of LDS apologetics has risen considerably while evangelical responses have not. ”
” …most involved in the counter-cult movement lack the skills and training necessary to answer Mormon scholarly apologetic. The need is great for trained evangelical biblical scholars, theologians, philosophers and historians to examine and answer the growing body of literature produced by traditional LDS scholars and apologists. ”
Now that’s what I call a HAMMER. Directly from your fellow evs. Just because I don’t belive in your fascist alien thug doesn’t make me a child of the devil or a wolf in sheeps clothing. So again, cancel your subscription to the National Enquirer, start wearing a shirt and move out of the double-wide.