Indecent Exposure (Part 3 of 4)

For mature audiences only

At the end of part 2 of our series we discussed the Mormon connection/similarity that is implied by Mormon intellectuals between the Mormon god and a pagan Egyptian god in Facsimile No.2, Figure 7.  Since Joseph Smith took it upon himself to draw in the missing parts incorrectly, it is up to the Mormon apologists to come up with something—even if it’s laughable to non-Mormon Egyptologists and blasphemous to true Christian believers. Why would Joseph Smith do this? Why would he put the head of a dove on a human male’s body that has the tail of a hawk with an erect penis and call that God?

Joseph Smith didn’t know what he was doing. He was wingin’ it. He made it up as he went along. Joseph Smith had become a master of taking advantage of people. He got whatever he wanted because the people believed he was a prophet. They paid $2,400 for the mummies and the parchments all on the word of Joseph Smith. And who was there to refute him? Who at the time in that area or all of America for that matter knew anything about Egyptian writings? Joseph Smith could say whatever he wanted about any of this and the people would believe it. It’s really amazing and very cunning—not to mention sinister—how people were duped and taken advantage of in so many ways.

Joseph Smith’s scam went without serious challenge at time. But now with the evidence and the “jury” in, the verdict is clear: Joseph Smith was a fraud and wasn’t even close in any of his renditions in the facsimiles. He was no prophet of God, but a false prophet. He received no divine revelation in any of this. God doesn’t make mistakes and He doesn’t get it wrong. When a true prophet speaks or writes anything that is coming from God it will be truth (Deuteronomy 18:18-22).

Should we look the other way and now apply Moroni 10:3-5 to the Book of Abraham? An LDS Church manual essentially says, “yes”:

“The Prophet Joseph Smith never communicated his method of translating these records. As with all other scriptures, a testimony of the truthfulness of these writings is primarily a matter of faith. The greatest evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham is not found in an analysis of physical evidence nor historical background, but in prayerful consideration of its contents and power.” (The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual – Religion 327, 2000, p. 28)

Isaiah saw “the Lord sitting upon a throne” (Isaiah 6:1), “and one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory” (Isaiah 6:3). Take your pick of pagan Egyptian gods. None of them are anything near what Isaiah had envisioned. God makes it very clear in referencing the pagan gods of Egypt that “the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence” (Isaiah 19:1). These gods will be burned in fire (Jeremiah 43:12). God gets very angry and His wrath will be poured out on these gods (Jeremiah 44:8). The punishment is going to be very severe for the people who worship these false gods of Egypt (Jeremiah 46:25). People that recognize these false gods as their real god are an abomination in the real God’s sight and God is going to pour out his fury on them (Ezekiel 20:7-8). This is exactly what Paul was referring to in 1 Corinthians 8:5 where he mentions “gods many and lords many”. That’s right – idols. This is the context of this passage as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:4. For Christians, there is only one true God – one God by nature (Galatians 4:8; 1 Corinthians 8:6). These false gods will perish (Jeremiah 10:10-11). They are “dumb idols” (1 Corinthians 12:2). God asks in Isaiah 40:25, “To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him?”

What is so puzzling and ironic to me is that in the very book that these facsimiles are displayed in (The Book of Abraham) these Egyptian false gods are condemned as well. See Abraham 1:6, 9, 13, 20; 2:13. They are “dumb idols” (Abraham 1:7) and are “strange gods” (Abraham 1:8).

Ever since Egyptologists have deciphered the parchments that Joseph Smith purchased from Michael Chandler, the Mormon Church has been doing “damage control”. The silence of LDS Church authorities on the issue, which encourages BYU professors to do the explaining, is amazing. Joseph Smith must be defended at all costs. They know what is on the line:

“CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH. Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards and measurement, the scriptures.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th LDS President, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p. 188).

In our final part we will examine what is at stake if the Mormon Church doesn’t reject the use of Egyptian paganism. I will also offer some solutions for getting out of this predicament.

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97 Responses to Indecent Exposure (Part 3 of 4)

  1. falcon says:

    You answered your own question very well. Joseph Smith was “wingin it”. The guy was totally out to lunch, full of himself and reinforced by the dupes that followed and believed him. It’s a real testimony as to how you can get some people to believe just about anything. It’s played out right here right now with the Mormons who just hold on to Mormonism with a death grip, afraid to let go. Their whole world will come crashing down if they put two and two together and conclude rightly that this is all a scam. So they come up with all sorts of explanations that don’t work with rational people. Just think, this is their whole world; everything they trust in; believe in; it structures their very existence. They’re hearing from God. He told them it was true.
    No wonder so many exMormons end up as atheists. They’ve been burned bad by the Mormon system with its lies and greed. To attempt to rebuild a faith in God after being victimized by Smith and his church is way too difficult for some.

  2. setfree says:

    “What is so puzzling and ironic to me is that in the very book that these facsimiles are displayed in (The Book of Abraham) these Egyptian false gods are condemned as well. See Abraham 1:6, 9, 13, 20; 2:13. They are “dumb idols” (Abraham 1:7) and are “strange gods” (Abraham 1:8).”

    This is exactly what hit me last night, as well…

    That in the “LDS scholarship” of one-in-a-million chances, in their attempt to “fix” this issue, they have gone against their own text!

    I have asked again, recently, and never heard back.

    LDS, why are there two contradictory versions of the first part of Genesis in the Pearl of Great Price? And don’t tell me what you’ve been told. First, go read them and see if they aren’t contradictory.

    I’ll help you get started. In the book of Abraham, the Genesis account goes from chapter 4 to the end of the book. In the Book of Moses (which is also the JST version of part of Genesis), the account starts in chapter 2.
    Not too much reading involved…

  3. jeffrey b says:

    LDS POGP student manual manual “The Prophet Joseph Smith never communicated his method of translating these records. As with all other scriptures, a testimony of the truthfulness of these writings is primarily a matter of faith. The greatest evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Abraham is not found in an analysis of physical evidence nor historical background, but in prayerful consideration of its contents and power.” (The Pearl of Great Price Student Manual – Religion 327, 2000, p. 28)

    Wow, nice escape route. Seriously you guys? This is the type of material that is spewed out from an organization afraid you might actually use your brain and start questioning things. This is the type of material you would see some of those crazy cults throw out at their people as a disclaimer.

  4. Rick B says:

    What I want to know is, WHERE are all the TBM’s?

    I mean come on, the TBM come out of the woodwork and tell us were wrong on things like the WoW for example, but yet the WoW is not really a salvation issue or showing JS to be a true prophet or not, since if we eat or do not eat it really does not matter. But on this matter, where is Jason Rae? where is Ralph? Where did Inhimdepented go? LDS from a while back.

    It seems when the topic like this really shows that JS is a fraud the Mormons seem to go away. Any thoughts? Rick B

  5. jackg says:


    Again, you are a blessing in this debate. Thank you for taking the time to research and study and then present your material in such a clear and concise manner. As I read what you have written, I wonder how I would respond if I were still LDS. The truth is that I would probably be a HankSaint and try like crazy to defend JS and the Church. What does that say? It says that the average Mormon is so indoctrinated that he/she will have no identity if they were to believe writings such as yours and begin to question the veracity of the Church and the claims of JS. I know how deep this identity issue runs since I have experienced it. It is very difficult to admit that you have built your foundation of faith on lies;hence, the attempt to save face and look for affirmation anywhere one can find it. I write this so that Christians will not become discouraged or impatient when witnessing to Mormons. I know that even I struggle in these areas. We want so badly for them to believe the Truth as witnessed by the biblical writers instead of the lies and heresies of false prophets and false scripture. God is revealing JS to be a fraud, and there are Mormons who are leaving the LDS Church for the covering of Jesus Christ. As we can see, however, even the leaders put experience above the Word of God when encouraging their members to cling to the “witness” of the Holy Ghost. Well, even that needs to be tested against God’s Word. Mormons don’t do that, and eventually exchange the Truth of God’s Word for lies. It is very sad. Thank you for putting your energy into ministering to Mormons. They are a people I love and with whom I get frustrated, and all we want for them is to come to the saving knowledge of the REAL Jesus Christ. Keep up the good work, my brother!

    Peace and Blessings…

  6. Jason Rae says:

    Rick, I already pointed out who is worshiping the false God and I made my point quite thoroughly I might add. So you’ve been warned.

    As far as the BoA is concerned the LDS view and research can be easily obtained and it is in stark contrast to what is posted here. I have no desire to convince you away from your current opinion.

    Praise and glory be to God the Father, Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith forever and ever.

  7. setfree says:

    I agree wholeheartedly with what you just wrote. I was thinking of my mother-in-law, and how (I believe) she is stuck in the church because her parents are temple workers. If they were to leave, I have no doubts that she would shout hallelujah and leave as well.
    It took this for me… I had become disenchanted with the church, and had set it to the side, believing that one day I would consider it again. But I didn’t leave it completely. My parents actually figured it out (after I was out of the house) by studying the Bible (by itself (not out of an LDS manual), and in comparison with the other LDS scriptures) and by the time they told me they didn’t believe the church anymore, they were already “saved”. It knocked me down, to hear they had abandoned the church. Like I said before, I had to reconsider EVERYTHING… I mean, all my upbringing, my worldview, my actions, my thoughts…
    It is probably the hugest leap anyone will ever take, a leap of faith, to go ahead and consider that what you’ve known all your life may not be true…. and trust that God will catch you, show you what is true…
    But, let me tell any and everyone. It is more worth it than you can imagine. Trusting your soul to YHWH, instead of to a church… He is able to provide you with a life that the church thought it could, but never did… (and that is only one of many things)

    Praise God! Hallelujah!

  8. Jason Rae says:

    setfreeandgladyergone, your own religion is so devoid of any substance that in order to have a decent intellectual discussion it has to include LDS theology. I mean really, what do you guys have outside of a quick nod to the supreme commander? Nothing. You just wander around in a cloudy haze with an imaginary relationship with “something” in the sky. Whatever. Have at it.

    Anyone can see that for you guys to have anything real to talk about Joseph Smith has to be in the equation. I love it and it provides me with entertainment when I on occasion visit the board.

  9. Hello Everyone,

    Before I say what I want to say, let me first state that I am a former member of the LDS Church. I finally “saw the light” several years ago and got out. It was the best decision I’ve ever made. I agree with all of you that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that the Church is false.

    Now that I’ve said that, I have two main issues with this blog’s emphasis on the Book of Abraham:

    1) Even though they should care about this, because it really does make or break the whole thing, most Mormons honestly don’t care about the Book of Abraham. This whole discussion would seem irrelevant to an active, faithful Mormon, not because they want to ignore the truth, but simply because the Book of Abraham really doesn’t get much attention from the Church anymore. Obviously, we all know why it doesn’t get much attention – it has, for all intents and purposes, been proven to be fake, and the Church has therefore been putting less and less emphasis on it ever since the 1960s. Basically, what I’m trying to say is that non-Mormons often place much greater emphasis on issues like this than Church members ever do.

    2) It absolutely boggles my mind that you people can argue so effectively against Mormonism, and yet not apply any of the same methods of critical thinking to your own beliefs as Christians. My biggest frustration with the anti-Mormon community is that most of them are believing Christians. Every post on this blog gets filled with comments about how irrational Mormonism is, and how important it is for Mormons to come to an understanding of the true Jesus. Do you people really not get that a belief in Jesus Christ at all is just as irrational as a belief in Mormonism?

    The LDS Church has the unfortunate advantage of having been founded in the modern era. Because of that, we have so much on record about its early years that it is obvious to anyone who studies it and thinks about it that it is fake. Unfortunately, we do not have the same amount of written reporting…

  10. …on the early years of Christianity. If we did, its origin would probably be equally as shady. More than half of what traditional Christians, Catholics, Protestants, etc. believe is not found in the words of Jesus. Most of it is the product of men who came after him that had their own intentions.

    I suppose I won’t start this debate on my own. If anyone wants to discuss this, I’d be more than happy to. I just get a little frustrated when people criticize the religious beliefs of others (however irrational they may be), and yet fail to apply any methods of critical thinking to their own beliefs.

  11. jackg says:


    And I agree with what you wrote. How amazing are the ways that God works to redeem us. You hit the nail on the head when you said that LDS trust more in the “church” than in Jesus Christ, especially since the “church” teaches doctrines that simply aren’t biblical.


  12. jackg says:


    We are set free and glad we’re gone, and looking forward to the day you are set free and gone, as well. Our Supreme Commander is Jesus Christ, and we are looking forward with great hope and anticipation to the day He becomes your Supreme Commander, as well.

    Peace and Blessings…

  13. falcon says:

    Thank you for your contribution and welcome to MC. I was thinking about this very topic that you brought-up this morning as I was pounding away the endless miles on my road bike. I do my best thinking, it seems, as I pedal up and down the hills and valleys of west central Wisconsin. One of the big differences for me has nothing to do with the truth or falseness of Christianity but the fact that I don’t have an organization or faith group controlling me. Most of the old timers here know that I don’t belong to a church or a denomination and have zero affiliation with any Christian organization.
    This really shocks some people and they wonder how I can operate the way I do. But the whole deal works for me and I must add that I’m a believer in the full gospel of Jesus Christ not believing in a cessational or dispensational view of the Scriptures. My faith in Jesus is really a one-on-One deal, me with God.
    So why do I believe in God and in His Jesus Christ? Why do I accept by faith the atoning work of Jesus Christ on the Cross as payment for my sins? I have no clue! I don’t get why I believe it. I believe it. That’s the best I can do. The best I can do for you, if you’ve got the interest and the time is to look at the Day of Pentecost in the Book of Acts and then check out First Corinthians chapters 12 and 14. I was an atheist and pretty grumpy towards everything and anything related to God and religion. But when I became aware of God’s active work through His Holy Spirit, I decided to investigate further figuring that if this stuff was true, there was a good chance that there was a God. And if there was a God, I’d better get to know Him. I’m quite practical, in some ways, and I realized that eternity was a long time; I’d better spend some time on this now. Anyway, so here I am today. Happy with the decision I made, alone, by myself, unemotionally thirty-seven years ago. God witnesses to His reality, in my life everyday.

  14. jackg says:


    I see that you still carry the Mormon belief of a conspiracy theory regarding the history of Christianity and Christian dogma and doctrines. I cannot tell for certain where you stand other than you are no longer LDS. It has been a process of more than 10 years for the indoctrination of Mormonism to be totally eradicated from my thinking and from my belief system. I will pray for you as you travel from LDS to true, biblical Christianity. You have been lied to in the past and, thank God, you have seen the lies for what they are. Unfortunately, it has left you distrusting anyone who claims to be a believer and a messenger of Truth, which is basic transferrence. That’s okay, because it is understandable for you to feel this way. I know I am drawing conclusions about you based on the small contribution you have made with regard to this thread; hopefully, you will share more with us and not let this be your only contribution.


  15. Enki says:

    Jason Rae,
    “You just wander around in a cloudy haze with an imaginary relationship with “something” in the sky. Whatever. Have at it.”

    I have observed that sort of appearance in some LDS followers, and with other religions which have little to do with the Bible. I don’t understand what causes that. At times I have found it quite annoying, but I am working on accepting that a persons belief does something for them. I noticed that criticizing another persons belief might also possibly damage your own faith.

  16. Falcon: I understand what you’re saying, and I agree with you that there is no necessity for you go to a church just because you believe in something. All I would ask is this: While you aren’t “controlled” by a church, don’t you think you are “controlled” by a belief system or by the Bible, in some sense?

    JackG: I don’t think there is any sort of “conspiracy theory” about the history of Christianity that I agree with. It should be pretty obvious when reading the Bible that much of what we call Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus actually said or did. So much of it was added by Paul and others. So many of the basic doctrines were formulated centuries after Jesus was gone. Whether you believe in the Christian religion or not, it should still be obvious that this is the case.

    I don’t have anything against Jesus. I see him as a great moral teacher. I appreciate your response to my comments. Regardless of the religion or faith in question, I evaluate all religious claims in the same way now. I try to evaluate them using critical thinking and reasoning. So far, I find no evidence or reason to believe in the claims of Christianity. I find belief in Christianity to be just as much a matter of faith as a belief in Mormonism. Yes, I agree that Mormonism is much more ridiculous. But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that when it comes to what you describe as “true, Biblical Christianity,” there is just nothing convincing to lead me in that direction. For that reason, the most I can do is see Jesus as a great moral teacher. I can’t accept the supernatural claims.

  17. jackg says:


    Fair enough. Hope you visit this site and share your thoughts more regularly.


  18. falcon says:

    When we talk about spiritual warfare, I think some of the Mormons think that there is something personal regarding this. Actually if we carefully read Paul’s letter to the Ephesians he says that our struggle is not against “flesh and blood” so he is emphasizing the spiritual and not the physical world. He goes on to say that the struggle is against “the rulers against the powers against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.”
    In his article and excellent follow-up, Andy Watson pointed to the Egyptian pagan god Min as the manifestation of the Mormon god. This is an expose of Joseph Smith’s “revelation” and the canonization of the BoA by the Utah based LDS church. It would not surprise me in the least that out there in the spirit world there is a demon who calls himself Min. Given the occult connection of Joseph Smith and the subsequent nature, teachings and practices of Mormonism, Min seems like a pretty accurate picture of who the Mormons acknowledge as god. We know that Mormons do not worship the same God as Christianity so all we have to do is look to the BoA for the Mormon god.
    That people have a difficult time exiting Mormonism is not all that surprising. There’s not only the emotional bondage of Mormonism but also the spiritual. I’ve heard some Mormons say that the SLC LDS church needs to be reformed. Any type of reformation that does not include the rejection of the Mormon pagan god and the embracing of the God of the Bible, is merely window dressing. Mormons will be spiritually lost until they come to a place where the understand that the god Joseph Smith conjured up for them, is not God. All we can do is pray that this spiritual bondage will be broken.

  19. Olsen Jim says:


    I have read through your brief articles on the Book of Abraham and will provide responses to the few points you make and a few thoughts.

    First, I will say that I find it a little humorous that LDS here are criticized for “only reciting what the FARMS-BYU apologists say.” As if the critics here are reporting primary research of their own. You are merely reciting the arguments against the BOA that others have made. And those making those arguments are just as biased as those formulating the apologist defenses. To my knowledge, none of those posting here are Egyptologists, and I think a little humility and open mindedness is in order before such rash judgments are made. History has shown that interpreting ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics is fraught with inaccuracy and error, and that is when it is undertaken by those who know the most. It seems all the critics want to do here is close doors with as little thought as possible.

    In article 1 you say that the BOA claims to have been written physically and personally by Abraham, when in reality, that claim was never made by Joseph Smith. The dating of the papyri is not a problem for the BOA. Should we dismiss the book of Genesis as a fraud because it relates the stories of and very words of Adam, Abraham, Enoch, and others who lived thousands of years prior to Moses?

    Hugh Nibley quotes Egyptologist, J. Spiegel who observed that an Egyptian document is like the print of an etching, which is not only a work of art in its own right but “can lay claim equally well to being the original . . . regardless of whether the individual copies turn out well or ill.” Because he thinks in terms of types, according to Spiegel, for the Egyptian “there is no essential difference between an original and a copy. For as they understand it, all pictures are but reproductions of an ideal original.”

  20. Olsen Jim says:

    When I tell my daughter that my copy of Moby Dick was written by Herman Melville, am I lying to her? Although a convenient trap you and others set, the dating of the papyri generates no real issue for the BOA.

    You go on to argue that we possess all the scrolls that were purchased in 1835. This is a leap of faith on your part and that of critics. Hank was dismissed when he demonstrated that the descriptions of the set of papyri in 1835 do not match the remaining 11 fragments we have today. Such a dismissal is ridiculous. We have 26 eyewitness accounts from people who saw the papyri between the years 1835 and 1856. Their descriptions clearly lead one to conclude that what we have today is a fairly small portion of the original papyri. More than one witness said the scrolls were in “perfect preservation,” hardly the condition of the remaining fragments. There is no reason to conclude that what exists today was the source for the TEXT of the BOA.

    After the discovery of the remaining fragments (by the way, Dr. Aziz was not the discoverer- the Museum had logged the fragments and knew the whole time what they possessed), you say “the experts in Egyptology were called in to examine the papyri and the news wasn’t good.” That is quite a simplified and truncated description of a complicated and controversial process. And it demonstrates how ignorant we all are of the complexities and nuances involved in such an endeavor.

    The existing Joseph Smith papyri were written in the Greco-Roman era of Egypt. “Experts” in this era are almost non-existent, even among Egyptologists. They almost entirely focus on the older kingdoms. This is not a small point- the religious and cultural assumptions and meanings changed dramatically over such large time periods. And Kevin Barney showed that Hebrew peoples adapted Egyptian symbols to represent ideas divergent from those of the Egyptians.

  21. Olsen Jim says:

    You describe the fragments as being the Book of the Dead, a “common funerary document” and suggest that the interpretation is always the same, thereby making Joseph’s interpretation “way off.” But did you know that the same facsimiles have been used anciently to tell a very wide variety of stories? They look the same, but are employed to portray many different messages.

    No critics here have answered the claim that the BOA features details in the life of Abraham that agree very closely with ancient writings about and possibly by Abraham. It was not even known in Joseph Smith’s day that Abraham had written any history. The Biblical scholar E.A. Wallis Budge dismissed the BOA as being “clearly based on the bible and some of the old testament apocryphal histories.” What Budge failed to realize is that it would have been impossible for Joseph to have any access to those histories.

    Much of what Joseph translated was not found in the Bible. But those parts that diverged from the Genesis account just happen to agree very closely with other ancient writings about Abraham. Coincidence? For example, many ancient texts claim Abraham taught astronomy to the Egyptians. Eusebius quotes Artapanus “Abraham came to Egypt with all his household to the Egyptian king Pharethothes, and taught him astrology, that he remained there twenty years and then departed again for the regions of Syria.” (Tvedtnes et al. Traditions about the Early life of Abraham, 7). Similar accounts of Abraham teaching astronomy to Egyptians is found in Byzantine, Palestinian, and Jewish Histories.

    Larry E. Morris quotes an ancient Islamic text, “Qisas al-Anbiya” from 1310 “The chamberlain brought Abraham to the king. The king looked at Abraham; he was good looking and handsome. The king honoured Abraham and seated him at his side.” (The Book of Abraham: Ask the Right Questions and Keep on Looking).

    Much more to say- but at my limit- more tomorrow.

  22. Olsen Jim says:

    He further quotes Bradley Cook (non-LDS Egyptologist) who points out that the ancient Islamic text records the idolatry of Abraham’s father, the celestial mysteries revealed to Abraham, Abraham and his message is rejected in Ur, human sacrifice in his day, and Abraham being saved from death by an Angel.

    Francis Schmidt, a French scholar (non-LDS), studied the Testament of Abraham and found striking similarities to the Book of the Dead of Pamonthes and The Tale of Satni-Khamois, both Egyptian documents from the Greco-Roman era in Egypt. He found “counterparts to most of the elements in the Testament of Abraham in a single Egyptian source. He theorizes that the story of Abraham in Testament had its origins in an Egyptian vignette that shows Osiris and Anubis, the Egyptian jackal-headed god and patron of embalming.”

    Another scholar, K. Grobel, demonstrated striking parallels between Abraham and the scenes in the Book of the Dead. He compared the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to the Demotic tale of Satme. Grobel concluded that “Abraham must be a Jewish substitute for the pagan god Osiris” in the typical Book of the Dead scene.

    Here we have non-LDS scholars saying that many of the elements in the Apocalypse and Testament of Abraham writings originated from Egyptian sources, and that Abraham was a “substitute” for Osiris in a Book of the Dead scene.

    Did I mention that Egyptian facsimiles have been found with inscriptions that contain the name Abraham? (Insights: An Ancient View- The Newsletter of the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, September 1991).

    It seems a person with any degree of curiosity and honesty would little just a little further before concluding the BOA is a fraud.

  23. setfree says:

    Is this where you’ve been reading, Jim?

  24. liv4jc says:

    Charleshicksjr, Christianity has everything to do with what Jesus said and did. The letters written by Paul and others would have been the same as if contemporaries and close companions of Abraham Lincoln wrote about his lectures and teachings into the the late 1920’s or early 1930’s. If those contemporaries had written what was said, and also taught others what they had personally seen and heard from Abraham Lincoln, then we would have a reliable history that few would challenge. The earliest books of the New Testament were written within about 27 years of Jesus’ death. Given the fact that the writer’s apparently lived and breathed teaching and preaching about Jesus after the Day of Pentacost it is doubtful that they would have allowed changes in doctrine or forgotten key events. In fact, this is exactly what most of Paul’s letters address: changes in true doctrine that had crept into the church. Add the fact that we have literally tens of thousands of manuscripts and fragments from the text from just a half a century removed from their original writing to about 1300 years after the original writing. We find a lot of grammar, spelling, and mis-copying errors combined with a fair number of intentional scribal additions and deletions, but no errors in doctrine. When we compare the different families of manuscript traditions it allows us to spot these mistakes and changes, and re-construct the original text with a high degree of accuracy. Just wanted to throw that out there to put a bug in your ear just in case I never talk to you again. I would love to discuss this further, but it is totally off-topic. You can contact me at [email protected]

  25. setfree says:

    Or was it from here:

    I’m finding some exciting evidence that proves the book of A true….

    (um, not!) 😉

  26. setfree says:

    I see that some of the material comes from the Apocalypse of Abraham, which is a good source?

  27. Olsen Jim, are you the former “faithoffathers”?

  28. Michael P says:

    Andy, thank you again for a great post.

  29. charleshicksjnr wrote “Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus actually said or did…Whether you believe in the Christian religion or not, it should still be obvious that this is the case.

    I don’t have anything against Jesus. I see him as a great moral teacher.”


    Though I share your concerns that much of what passes as Christianity today has little to do with its founder, I must object to your conclusions.

    You are rightly concerned that what Jesus said and did should form the basis of the Christian religion, but where should we look for our information? Surely, the canonical Gospels should be our primary sources, being the earliest and most reliable records of Jesus’ words and deeds.

    Your are also rightly concerned that Paul and the men who followed Jesus modified or changed his message, or that the later Fathers introduced ideas that were foreign to the Jesus paradigm. I contend that this is not the case; for example Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God and Paul taught about what it is that justifies a person’s citizenship of that Kingdom.

    It is common among those who promote your assertions to say that the full deity of Christ was thrust upon him by others. On the contrary, it was something that he promoted himself. According to those who were closest to him, Jesus considered himself to be equal to God (see Phil 2:6-11), and that is the principal reason why they killed him.

    Which brings us to the “great moral teacher”. There’s no doubt that Jesus promoted moral living, but, if the Gospels are to be believed, he spent most of his words and actions demonstrating what God is like. Christians marvel at this because they see, in Jesus, the divine Word made flesh (John 1:14). Its as if, in the Gospels, the heavens are finally torn open and we can see God for who he truly is, because He is present in Jesus, the Immanuel (Matt 1:23).

    It appears to me that your understanding has been poisoned by the vacuous propaganda of Mormonism.

  30. falcon says:

    After all the posts I’ve come to the conclusion, again, that in the Wonderful Wonderland of Mormondom, evidence has very little value. Evidence upsets the emotional equilibrium of the Mormon(s) and forces them to question their basic premise that the Mormon church is true and that JS was a prophet.
    So what’s the fall back position? Well of course it’s the “god has revealed to me” fail safe response or “there’s so much we don’t know and when all is known the church will be proven true and JS will be proven a prophet” or an Egyptologist or whatever.
    It keeps everything in the Mormon’s world neat and tidy and even the most glaring evidence that Mormonism is false can be dispatched with the wave of a hand and a couple of pat phrases.
    The “god revealed it to me” is particularly useful because it appears to have so much authority and power attached to it. Of course it’s a technique that’s used by people in all sorts of religious traditions who want to bolster their position and assign to themselves great mystical power.
    The problem with the “god revealed or told me” tactic is that it can’t be proven where as an actual document, as is the case with the BoA, can be proven to be false. But that’s not important. What’s important is that an appeal to a personal divine message works like a religious placebo. It answers all of the questions, solves all of the mysteries and maintains the proclaimed premise.
    So despite the fact that other sects of Mormonism don’t accept the BoA, our SLC LDS friends are stuck with it. The only thing they can do is continue to dig in their heels and appeal to their personal revelation and be blissfully confident that that which is a lie certainly must be true. You see, god told them and it’s all just a matter of time before the revelation is proven to be true. I think I hear crickets in the background as we wait.

  31. liv4jc says:

    What we have in the BoM and the BoA is supposed revelation from God to ancient man in America and in Egypt. The revelations in the BoM and BoA were written by those men in those texts. So let’s assume for argument’s sake that those texts are equal to the Biblical manuscripts. We believe that the Biblical historical writers, prophets and Apostles also wrote what they had learned from God. The scriptures are said to be “Theopneustos” or “God breathed” (2 Timothy 3:16). Also, 2 Peter 2:20,21 tells us that no scripture comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, but the writers of scripture speak as they are carried along by the Spirit of God. Since God cannot lie, scripture cannot contradict itself. This means that what is written comes directly as if it is spoken by the mouth of God.

    So God speaks to man and man records what is spoken. This is God’s way of preserving His teachings. We then read what those teachers recorded in scripture and build a theology from there. Here is the problem that we have with the BoM: Although we believe, according to faith, that the inspired writers of the Bible recorded what God revealed to them, we actually have copies of the original Biblical texts (and I don’t mean we have Paul’s actual letters). On the other hand the BoM was spirited away and all we have left is what JS claims he read from the manuscript that he had. This is equal to God spiriting away the Biblical manuscripts and leaving us with interpretations by one man who said he translated them. Does God work this way? No. As I have stated before, we have tens of thousands of Biblical manuscripts, and an even greater abundance of ancient documents that quote those writings. Those manuscripts are not contradictory (I am fully aware of the supposed contradictions the LDS church claims exist). Given the method of rapid dispersion of the gospels and epistles all over the Roman Empire it would have been impossible for one church to control their transmission and content.

  32. liv4jc says:

    On the other hand, we find no BoM manuscripts anywhere else in the Americas even though the BoM admits their existence internally. A literate religious culture disperses its religious literature all over the place, whether pagan or not. We know this is true by visiting Biblical lands, and if another culture came upon our libraries a thousand years from now it would be true of us.
    The LDS church has exclusively controlled the translation and transmission of the BoM text, and nobody has any external independent manuscript evidence to either agree with or refute those translations. This is what you claim the Roman Catholic church has done with the Bible, yet manuscript evidence refutes that claim.

    We don’t have any BoM manuscript evidence other that what JS claims were on the plates. His method of translation is unlike any other method used to translate literature from one language to another. The witnesses who “saw” the plates saw them after prayer, and they were in the hands of an apparition. The men were not allowed to examine them or attempt to translate them themselves. Nobody but JS can verify what was written on the plates. I have learned to read Greek and I don’t need a seer stone in a hat to translate from Greek into English. When I translate others are allowed to also look at my Greek NT without dying. My Greek NT is not “hid up in the woods” while I look at my seer stone in a hat, nor did an Angel come and take it away. Again I ask you. Does God work this way? No. The original writers of scripture are inspired. The translators are not, and the manuscripts are not possessed of magical powers of death to those who look upon them. God does not keep His Word or the evidence of it secret.

  33. liv4jc says:

    We do however have manuscript evidence of the BoA papyri. When those writings are translated by the normal method men use to convert writing in one language to another we find that JS was not really able to read Egyptian. This gives weight to the idea that even if JS had a book on golden plates, he was not really able to translate it accurately. I know that HankSaint and others are going to say that we also cannot prove, due to lack of physical evidence, that JS did not actually have the plates and did not translate them correctly. And just because we have not found an actual cache of early American gold plates in a library buried beneath the Hill Cumorah, doesn’t mean that we won’t ever find it. You’re right Hank, I can’t prove that something that did not exist does not exist. My six year old would use that same logic to defend the existence of an imaginary friend.

    Further evidence comes to us in the D&C, which are akin to the writings of Biblical prophets and Apostles as JS is claiming direct revelation from God. 2 Peter 2:20-21 tells us that these revelations come from the Holy Spirit. Is He not the Spirit of Truth? If so He cannot contradict Himself, and what we see in the D&C is direct contradiction of Biblical truths. Therefore, one revelation is true, and one revelation is false. Mormons must decide to either cling to the D&C, the BoM, the BoA, and JS as a true prophet and jettison the Bible, or jettison the LDS church and cling to the Bible and its revealed truths alone. The only thing you have to lose is eternal life vs. eternal punishment in hell. Choose wisely and remember that according to Spencer Kimball you are accountable for every sin unless you become perfect.

  34. Olsen Jim says:

    Setfree- No.

    Setfree- No.

    Aaron- No, but I see him almost every day.

    liv4jc- I suppose we should dismiss the book of Genesis. After all, we do not have any of the manuscripts that Moses used to write that book. We have absolutely no physical evidence that he was not a fraud in his production of that book.

    And your argument falls absolutely flat about the New Testament. We possess none of the original manuscripts. We have copies of copies. I could just as logically say that we have millions of copies of the BOM manuscript- it is just that we have the technology to make copies with type print, unlike ancient days. Minor changes have been made in different editions, but we have millions of copies. Ultimately, it originated from a single manuscript. This is no different than the New Testament.

    Step back and look at your approach. Your mind and those of your friends are darkened. Faith has no role in your quest. I am not talking about blind faith either. You are no different than Herod or the Pharisees in this respect- waiting for and demanding a miracle, sign, or external proof from the the Lord.

    charleshicksjr nails it on the head- you share a great deal with the atheists who scoff at Christians. You approach modern revelation exactly the same way atheists approach ancient revelation.

    Sad thing is that you are missing out on soooo much. But nobody will force you or the other critics to believe or accept the words of Christ.

    By the way- did you not know that the New Testament contradicts itself plenty. The accounts in the gospels differ in many details of Christ’s life and miracles.

    How about this thread? There are two independent, non-LDS scholars whom we have no reason to believe know anything about the BOA, who have concluded that the ancient Abrahamic literature has close ties to Egypt, with one even claiming Abraham is a substitute for Osiris on the Lion couch in certain facsimiles.

  35. falcon says:

    I had the opportunity today to go out on YouTube and watch a presentation done in 1984 at general conference. The presentation was striking to me on several levels. One was that the speaker sounded like one of the automotons at the Hall of Presidents at Disney World. Very nice looking man, earnest and with clear speech. But after a while it started to seem creepy. That’s really just an aside however.
    The topic of his little fifteen minute speech basically was that Mormons have to focus on the Gospel of Jesus Christ for guidance and not depend so much on the Mormon church it’s rules, regulations, customs and culture. Very good I thought. He didn’t say it the way I just wrote it but the meaning was pretty obvious to me.
    I understand that the GAs got their sacred underwear in a bunch and had him rerecord the talk and tried to make it sound like it was the original by sticking in a little crowd noise. The article that appeared in the Ensign edited his speech. I’ve seen the side-by-side comparison.
    Another interesting thing besides thinking that the presenter sounded like the male version of a Stepford Wife, was that if I didn’t know better, I’d think I was listening to a nineteenth century Methodist. Man these guys know how to put the old veneer on Mormonism. I wanted to interrupt and say, “Ah Sir, could you tell me who God is based on the BoA revelation.” You see, if you peel back the cover of Mormonism, underneath you find this entirely different religion than is presented for public consumption. I recently had a discussion with a person who has exited Mormonism within the last four months. I asked him what he thought he was joining when he got into it. He thought it was just another Christian denomination. Five years later and armed with accurate information as to what Mormonism is all about, he exited the program.
    So I can see how people get sucked into this deal because the foundation of Mormonism, as instituted by Joseph Smith, is lies and deception. Get out now!

  36. liv4jc says:

    OlsenJim, what on earth are you talking about? Open your eyes and read my post. I’ll spell it out for you, copied from above: “Although we believe, according to faith, that the inspired writers of the Bible recorded what God revealed to them, we actually have copies of the original Biblical texts (and I don’t mean we have Paul’s actual letters).”

    We are looking for a sign like the Pharisees? We have blind faith???!!! Who is being visited by Angels in the night and seeing the BoM plates held by a spiritual being in the forest after praying? Who cries out to God for forgiveness because it was their sin that kept the others from seeing the book with spiritual eyes? Who among us has the magic book that disappears and kills those who look upon it, except the one chose by God, namely Joseph Smith? Do I hide my NT Bible behind a sheet and ask my wife to trascribe what I read to her? This has all the markings of a forgery written by a con-man. We have no idea how much time JS actually put into his book. Were you there to make sure he was only writing and translating while his scribes were in the room? How would you know? He hid behind a sheet. Who knows what material he had to copy from?

    OlsenJim, that Moses wrote what was communicated by God is what I believe by faith. That we have a long, well documented manuscript tradition for both the Old and New Testaments is what I use as evidence to support that faith. Biblical manuscripts, which are copies of copies of copies on down to us, do not disappear. We can compare manuscript copy families and get a pretty good idea about what does and does not belong. Like Dr. James White is fond of saying, “It’s like having a one hundred piece puzzle with one hundred and ten pieces. Nothing has been removed, an we have a pretty fair idea what has been added.”

    As for your supposed contradictions, do you honestly think that we Satanic perveyors of false scripture wouldn’t have fixed them by now when you enlightened people foundthem

  37. liv4jc says:

    Sorry for my rant everyone, but this kind of pot-calling-the-kettle-black argumentation really makes my blood boil.

  38. falcon says:


    This is worth a post. I love your passion and intellect. Besides, when people write like you just did, I don’t feel alone as the King of Rant. You should see what I delete!

    Your Friend,

    The Falcon

  39. Olsen Jim says:


    We do not have the original manuscripts of the New Testament. What are you basing such a claim upon? It can be shown without doubt that the closest we have are copies of copies of the original NT manuscripts. Study any of the great textual critics and see what they conclude.

    Critics who insist on clear physical evidences are like Herod before whom Christ appeared after His arrest- you are demanding physical proof which is equivalent to demanding a miracle before you will believe.

    You have faith in the Bible because of tradition and what you perceive is historical proof and evidence. But when did God’s people ever require documentary evidence of His word and prophets? You are digging a big pit here.

    You think it odd that God would conceal the actual record of his commandments and scripture? Read the Old Testament again- remember the arch of the covenant? That wasn’t exactly on open display at the Jerusalem community center.

    You mention a long history of manuscripts etc. etc. Tell me- where are the manuscripts from which Moses made his account found in Genesis? Sure, we have evidence of manuscripts that came long AFTER the original he produced. What about his source(s) for writing Genesis- we have nothing of the sort.

    My point above is that you are using the same approach in evaluating the BOA and the BOM that atheists employ in approaching the Bible.

  40. Martin_from_Brisbane and liv4jc:

    Thanks for your replies!

    Please note that I my exact wording in my original post was that “much of what we call Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with what Jesus actually said or did.” Let me emphasize MUCH. I did not say that ALL of Christianity originated after Christ. Of course I realize that there is plenty of Christian doctrine that DOES come from the words of Jesus. I was only trying to make the point that so much of what many Christian churches teach is not based in the words of Jesus or even in scripture at all. The greatest example I can think of is the concept of the Trinity. Yes, there may be some verses here and there that you can use to justify this idea; but any intelligent, informed Christian should at least be able to acknowledge that the doctrine of the Trinity was a product of Catholicism several centuries after Christ. It was not taught by Jesus himself. There are other examples, but that is one that is believed by many Christians and taught by many churches.

    Anyway, I’ve noticed that many of the believing Christians I interact with make the same point you have made here. People are always saying that Mormonism gave me a bad taste in my mouth about religion, and that’s why I’m a non-believer. Well, you’re right! That is exactly what happened.

    But I must also say that my inability to accept the claims of Christianity isn’t really a result of my disillusionment with Mormonism. Part of it, anyway, is that when you Christians make claims and argue for doctrines, you sound exactly like Mormons do when they defend their religion. You’re always saying that such-and-such must be true because the Bible says so, or such-and-such must be true because I’ve felt Jesus in my heart, or whatever. This is all exactly what the Mormons are always saying.

    The fact that we have copies of ancient scrolls with the books of the Bible on them does prove that the books are accurate when compared with the originals, but it…

  41. …does nothing to prove that the books are true. Look at it this way: If the Mormons actually still had the gold plates in their possession, and a team of Egyptologists (or I guess “reformed Egyptologists”) translated them and found the Book of Mormon to be an accurate translation, would you join the LDS Church? I certainly would not. Just because the physical records exist and are accurately translated does not make their contents true.

    Perhaps I am a bit tainted by Mormonism. I guess I just don’t see anything all that enticing about accepting religion again. But I will say that one of the most interesting observations I have made is that even though the doctrines are totally different in every case, people in every religion use the same types of arguments to back up their beliefs as the Mormons do.

  42. mobaby says:


    After reading Mormon comments here and elsewhere, and knowing some Mormons, I am one Confessional Christian that does not use Mormon type arguments – I don’t even think that way and cannot – it makes my head hurt. Doctrines, Creeds, Biblically based doctrines form the foundation of my faith – I believe in the historicity of the Bible as documented by numerous archeological findings, in addition to this I see the truth of scriptures description of man’s depravity. Man is sinful and depraved, this description of our condition is a self-evident truth seen in every country, every culture, every person. The Bible accurately describes our fallen helpless condition. Faith is not blind faith, or fairy tales, but an honest look at our condition and a trusting in God’s unmerited favor. There is evidence for my faith beyond my own feelings, beyond wishful thinking. Certainly, God has been good to me, but my faith is so much more than a conviction or a sense of truth – it is real, whether I believe it or not. Few anymore deny the historicity of Jesus, and I find the evidence for his death on the cross for our sins compelling and believable – both in personal testimony and real world truth. The substance of my faith is very different from Mormons, and the foundation is very different. I know I need a savior, and despite my own sinful depravity, God has granted me faith to trust in the cross of Christ for redemption. Mormons have an entire cosmology constructed by Joseph Smith sitting out there with only one thing underpinning the entire construct, their own personal testimony of the truth of this fantastical story of gods, goddesses, and golden plates.

  43. setfree says:

    I want to be clear that this is not TO Jim Olsen, but I’m writing it because of what he wrote.
    “You think it odd that God would conceal the actual record of his commandments and scripture? Read the Old Testament again- remember the arch of the covenant? That wasn’t exactly on open display at the Jerusalem community center.”
    Jim and LDS, you guys miss SOOOOO much by studying the Bible from an LDS manual instead of from someone who really studies it for what it is.
    Why did YHWH have the “testimony” (the 10 commandments) put into the ark of the covenant? The same reason he had Aaron’s staff and the pot of manna in there. (see Hebrews 9:4)
    Inside of the ark of the covenant were placed three symbols of man’s rebellion against God.
    1) The golden pot of manna symbolized man’s rebellion against God’s provision.
    2) Aaron’s rod symbolized man’s rebellion against God’s authority
    3) The two stone tablets (on which were the 10 commandments) symbolized man’s rebellion against God’s standard.
    God wanted these things placed INSIDE THE ARK, and COVERED by the MERCY SEAT.
    See, the Ark of the Covenant is a symbol of Jesus. Jesus came so that His blood would cover our sins (our rebellion against God). He took our sins into Himself, because of God’s Mercy to us.
    God didn’t want Israel going back to their own works, their own ways, their own selves… by getting inside of the ark of the covenant. He wanted them to see that He would be their covering, their salvation. He would hide their sins away, and be merciful to them.
    Jesus is our Ark of the Covenant. He took the punishment for our sins in His body. He bled as the sacrifice for our rebellion against God. And those who believe in Him are covered by the Mercy of God!

    I may have not done a very good job at explaining this. But like I say… if you really want to get to know Jesus, the Bible, and what’s in there, you need to study, and not out of an LDS manual.

  44. mobaby says:

    I bet the LDS Church wishes they had that $2400 back. With interest it would be worth a lot more today and they wouldn’t have facsimiles to deal with.

  45. mobaby says:

    I want to make one correction to my post above. The foundation for my faith is redemption through Christ crucified for my sins as seen in scripture and supported by both doctrine and historic reality. This is the essential foundational doctrine.

  46. Andy Watson says:

    Jason Rae said: “Praise and glory be to God the Father, Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith forever and ever.”

    This must be Jason Rae’s “trinity”. I will give praise to God the Father and Jesus Christ – God the Son. That’s where it stops. Why? Joseph Smith isn’t worthy of glory because God doesn’t share His glory/Deity with anyone else – Isaiah 48:11. I think what Jason really wanted to say was, “Praise and glory to Min/Amun, the brother of Lucifer and Joseph Smith forever and ever.”

    Jason said: “I mean really, what do you guys have outside of a quick nod to the supreme commander?”

    What do we have of the Mormon supreme commander who appears to be on house arrest at Kolob, a half-man/half-bird who likes sitting around with no pants on with his junk hanging out, with one hand up in the air and one around the groin as in a rodeo? I prefer to worship the Father who Jesus said is Spirit in John 4:24 – not this false god who likes showing mankind his genitals.

    Here is a short list of “have’s” & “have-nots” when Christianity is compared to Mormonism:

    1. We have the assurance of the gift of eternal life NOW (John 6:47).
    2. We have a relationship – not religion – with Jesus Christ that is real, satisfying and complete.
    3. We aren’t sitting on our dead rears at home being spiritually lazy because our theology teaches us that we have plenty of chances after death and that our relatives can do things for us by proxy in a temple (the majority of the LDS membership – inactive – “jack” Mormons).
    4. We don’t have to sing “Praise to the Man” to Smith or Monson in viewing them as the earthly “supreme commander”.
    5. We have testimonies of a regenerated life in Christ by the Holy Spirit being in our life which is something that Mormons can’t deny. We’ve been born again (John 3:3).
    6. We have the assurance that all of our sins have been forgiven NOW.
    7. We don’t have to make excuses for past prophets or change our doctrine every six months at Conference if needed.

  47. Michael P says:

    Charles, I appreciate your thoughts on religion. I think they are sincere and show deep thought. However, I think they are also misplaced regarding Christianity.

    First, and I do not want to get into a debate regarding the Trinity, but I think Christ himself did speak of the Trinity, even if he did not call it that. He regarded himself as “I am”. He also said that if you know the Father you’ll know him. These two alone make a good case for its existence. Sure, these may have other meanings, but I am not sure if those stand up, especially given that we believe in the existence of but one God.

    Second, regarding the document evidence, you are right, a faithful translation does not mean the documents themselves portray truth. But it is my belief that the documents speak the truth because of what they say about themselves and what they say about the world around them. There is a consistency between what they say about the world around when they were written, and speak to the future even, in a remarkably accurate way. Non-believers have used the Bible as a map to find archeological sites to good effect. The prophecies found in the Bible are accurate in an astounding success rate as well. Now, you can say the books are just good history and the prophecies are broad enough to be flexible to call successful, or even say stories were subsequently written to accomodate them. But I don’t think those criticisms stand when compared with the actual history of the writings.

    A final point on faith. I do agree that eventually we reach a point where all we have is faith. One can know all of the above arguments and still not believe, coming out with the alternatives listed above. Like it or not, the final arbiter of all of this will be known at death unless Christ returns before we die. But given this short list of reasons to believe I think it is very reasonable to accept the Bible not only as a good history book and moral guide but also spiritually accurate.

  48. Andy Watson says:

    Jim Olsen,

    I’m glad you made it to the discussion. I regret that I wasn’t able to answer your objections/questions yesterday when you posted. I’m preparing to go out of town for a while. I appreciate your understanding.

    I have now read all of your posts including the ones today. I was fully prepared to go line-by-line and address, refute and correct you in the errors of your ways. After reading the expected and usual LDS “falling on their sword” tactic of bringing up the ancient Bible manuscripts, I realized that my earlier plans were utter nonsense. Why? I’m glad you asked.

    I find it maddening and laughable that a religion that has ZERO manuscript evidence for the BoM and only 11 fragments for the BoA would look at Christianity which has 26,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone and actually try to make a case against it for self-justification. It is insanity and ludicrous. I can go online and read Codex Sinaiticus:

    I can travel just a few hours in my car and look at manuscripts from A.D. 250 in California. I can go to Salt Lake and look at 11 fragments that everyone outside of BYU has said are a farce. I have only one question to ask of you since my time is short this night:

    Where is my list of Egyptologists outside of BYU that are not Mormons that say Joseph Smith got it right? Give me those names – any name – one name.

    You have nothing. No evidence. The LDS basis for knowing the BoA is true is to pray and find out it is true and ignore the evidence. I’m glad our judicial system in America isn’t based on LDS thinking (forget the evidence and facts).

    Wise up!

  49. falcon says:

    Well everyone wants evidence and I know the Mormon folks are really into Joseph Smith’s “revelations” and appearances of all sort of spiritual entities. Anyway, my old Catholic upbringing comes flooding back at times (even though I haven’t been a practicing Catholic for over forty years) and I was thinking about Bernadette and Our Lady of Lourdes. Bernadette saw the Virgin Mary 18 times in one year (1850s) in a grotto. At one time Mary told her to dig in the ground for water to drink and bath in. She did and a spring began flowing and it seems that there have been many miraculous healings attributed to these waters.
    What’s really interesting is they dug Bernadette’s body up twice and it was perfectly preserved, no decay. It’s now on display and there are pictures of her body on the internet, which is now on display under glass. Really interesting.
    Well I think it would be good for our Mormon folks to google “Bernadette of Lourdes” and see how it compares to their Joseph Smith tales. This would include our BoA discussion here. There’s more evidence to attribute to the Bernadette accounts than to that of Joseph Smith. In fact the evidence of the BoA is that given the parchments, they don’t say what JS said they do. So I would suggest that the Mormons become Catholics.
    Go and google “Bernadette of Lourdes”.

  50. Andy Watson says:


    I apologize that I haven’t been able to be actively involved in the discuussion the last day or so as I have been preparing to leave out of town for a while. I want to thank everyone that offered me your kind words in this series on the BoA facsimiles. For those that didn’t, that’s okay. My intentions are good, noble and sincere as I am deeply concerned for the LDS people. I love them enough to tell them the truth even if it means being initially hated.

    I am hoping that Part 4 will be out on Friday or soon thereafter. I won’t be able to participate in those discussions because I will be gone and I do not have a laptop. I appreciate your understanding. I’m sure if there are any questions any Christian on this site can answer them because everyone here is top-notch not to mention the competent staff at MRM that run MC (Aaron & Sharon).

    I will give a teaser to Part 4: I want the Mormons to read very carefully the quotes by Mormon apostle B.H. Roberts. That’s right, the “Defender of the Faith”, LDS Church historian and academic heavyweight of the Mormon Church. The LDS faithful would be well advised to consider his counsel and think on his thoughts.

    Thank you for your time in reading this series, participating and allowing me the opportunity to share with you what was on my mind.

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