This article was originally posted at Dan Phillips’ blog, Biblical Christianity. I am re-posting here as a part of a three-article simultaneous posting between Tim and Bridget, two other evangelical bloggers. Please see their articles as well.
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Getting turned down and even having doors slammed in your face isn’t fun. It’s emotionally and physically draining. I know because many Mormons are rude to me on a weekly basis here in Utah on evangelistic outings. No matter how positive and polite I try to be, that I am trying to convert them from their Restoration to our Great Apostasy doesn’t go over well. “Get a job.” “What are you, an anti-Mormon?” “You should be ashamed of yourself.” “What did the Mormons ever do to you?” “How much money do you get paid to do this?” “Don’t you have anything better to do?”
All that, but at least I still get to pick up the phone and talk to my mom whenever I want. Mormon missionaries are typically only allowed to send letters/email once a week, and make a phone call twice a year to their family. Once on Christmas, and once on Mother’s Day. They eat lots of Ramen noodles, Mac and Cheese, and anything else cheap that a budget-conscious bachelor pad might serve.
Mormons tell us all the time to take our tough and deep questions to the young missionaries, because surely these guys know the answers. But that is hardly the case. These are a bunch of young 19 and 20-year-olds who are playing the part of a Mormon tradition that is designed to help them plant deep roots of Mormon commitment and belief. Many of them are on their mission to participate in an adventure and figure things out for themselves, not yet having the deep belief in Mormonism that they wish they had. The two-year-mission largely functions in Mormonism to solidify that belief. It’s a spiritually formative time in their life, and it’s our duty to plant seeds of truth in love.
When a new set of missionaries (they usually cycle out to different proximate areas every three months or so) knocks on my door, it’s usually because I have requested a new video resource they have advertised (do this!), because I have filled out a card in one of their Visitor’s Centers or public events (never pass that up!), or because a neighbor feels like I really need to be converted (hey, they care!). I’m more than delighted to have them over. Know that you can practice warm hospitality without welcoming them as fellow believers. Welcome them in, have them sit down, and bring them somethings to drink (save snacks for a bit later to keep them a bit longer).
Ask them where they are from, about their families, and what their post-mission plans are. They will want to quickly segue to their religious message. They usually ask me, “So how much do you know about the Church?” I am forthright about my knowledge of the Mormon faith. “I have studied it for years, I find it fascinating, but I have some grave concerns.” But what I know about the history and larger movement of Mormonism is inconsequential for the moment, because “I would love to hear what you two individually believe.”
Allow the missionaries to spend some time delivering their message, but look for points at which you can ask questions about the fundamental nature of God. Because I never know how short or long their visit will be, or if they will ever return, I make it a point to quickly get to the heart of the matter. For me that usually entails asking if they believe God once was a mere man who had to progress unto godhood, and whether they believe this mere man was once perhaps a sinner. The responses are varied, but usually heartbreaking and shocking. (See God Never Sinned)
The most important passage that I know to share with a Mormon is Isaiah 43:10:
nor shall there be any after me.”
I recommend using this passage even if you only have a few minutes. Ask the missionaries to “share their testimonies”, and patiently listen. They have a series of affirmations they will articulate here, usually something like, “I know the Church is true and has the restored priesthood, I know that Jesus is the Messiah, I know that the Book of Mormon is true, and I know the Thomas S. Monson is a modern-day prophet of God.”
“Thank you for sharing your testimony. Would you mind if I shared a testimony as well?”
“Sure.”
“The testimony I have to share right now isn’t my testimony, it is God’s testimony.” At this point I try to avoid using terms like “Bible” and “scripture” and “word of God”, and instead use the term “testimony of God.” Referring to God’s written revelations as the testimonies of God is perhaps the clearest and strongest way we evangelicals can communicate the nature of scripture to Mormons.
I open up the testimonies of God and put my finger under the passage to help them simultaneously read with their eyes as they listen with their ears: “God bears witness of himself in Isaiah 43:10, testifying, ‘Before me no god was formed [PAUSE], nor shall there be any after me.’ If we trust the testimony of man, how much more should we trust the testimony of God himself.”
This also works great in the beginning of a longer conversation, as it preempts the feelings-oriented Mormon epistemology that they want to promote. Mormon missionaries are taught to foster a kind of atmosphere and attitude among listeners. The next step for them is to help you identify a set of positive emotions with the Holy Spirit. By preemptively referring to scripture as the “testimony of God”, I have made it more difficult for them to appeal to human feelings as the chief, decisive vehicle of God’s authoritative revelation.
Other topics that are great to cover are the unique priesthood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 7), the explosively good news of the justification of the ungodly (Romans 4:4-8), and the importance of putting our feelings and thoughts in a system of checks and balances that realistically takes into account our finiteness and depravity and God’s authority and omnipotence (Isaiah 40:8; Acts 17:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:21). A wonderful list of passages put together by James White for witnessing to Mormons is available here.
You will inevitably be asked to read a section of the Book of Mormon and pray about that. On that issue please see an article by Bill McKeever.
A great way to get them to come back is not to hog the conversation, but to let them have their say. Practice using questions as a way of drawing out the topics you would like to address. Our interactions are not an endless emergent “conversation”, but neither are they an overwhelmingly aggressive monologue (I have learned this the hard way). Keep a mental note of three or so tough questions that went unanswered, and write them down for them.
“Would you guys please research the answers to these questions, and come back another time to share what you found?” Insist on it with a free dinner. In some areas, Mormon missionaries are not allowed to eat meals at the houses of other Mormons. This is designed to encourage them to eat with non-Mormon households or at a Mormon house with non-Mormon guests. The problem is that many missionaries end up eating a lot of those Ramen noodles. Your kitchens are the solution to this wonderful problem.
At the end, they will ask for someone to close in prayer, usually the head of the household. Use the opportunity to pray to our awesome and eternal God. Thank God before everyone in the living room for the free and immediate gift of justification, forgiveness, and eternal life. Thank him for transforming your heart to love and follow Jesus. Thank Jesus that in him we have all the riches of knowledge and wisdom and understanding, and that without him, we have nothing, and that with him we have everything. And beseech the Spirit to help everyone in the room to pursue the truth of the gospel, lest we suffer that awful punishment that the Bible describes as never-ending.
Get their phone number in case you have to reschedule, and use that number to remind them of the dinner appointment that you’re looking forward to. Trust me, this is important. They forget (either literally or sometimes intentionally) to show up and either never come back, or call to apologize, since something came up. Sometimes they are lazy, sometimes they are just busy. Give them the benefit of doubt and stuff them full of more dinner. Serve a dessert twenty minutes after dinner is over so that they feel obliged to stay longer than they would have. Keep inviting them over and over to eat more dinner, discuss more issues, and address more of the outstanding questions. It won’t last forever, so make the best use of your time. Ron Rhodes writes,
“Don’t move forward in a mad rush to discuss spiritual things, especially if you have the opportunity to work toward developing a personal relationship. When the Lord opens the door for witnessing, however, be ready to walk through it.
“The exception to this rule, of course, is if you know for certain that you will never see that particular Mormon again. Then you will want to cover as much doctrinal ground as possible, biblically refuting the most blatant heresies in Mormon theology and giving a strong personal testimony of what Jesus has done in your life.” (Ron Rhodes, Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons [1995], p. 29)
Thanks for this interesting post. Not only does it sound like solid advice, it offers some interesting tidbits about the LDS missionary experience I had not known about.
Also instructive were ways to get them come over. I’ve only had one time where they came by my home when I was there, and I did not invite them in. I will next time.
Thanks so much for this. As I read it, i kept thinking, I can do this! What a marvelous way to build a relationship, even if only for a one time visit, which will plant some seeds of further investigation.
I know there is a significant amount of Mormon missionaries that leave after they return home. Hopefully we can talk to enough of them to increase that percentage.
Ward I am with you, I think I can do this also.
Great post Aaron. I always take the opportunity to pray when they are in our home, praying for them and that our Sovereign God will work in their hearts. Properly handled, having the missionaries in your home can be a great chance to witness to the lost but it needs to be handled gently so they keep coming back.
Aaron,
About “the feelings-oriented Mormon epistemology”. I have pointed out this to LDS folks, who usually deny that its their feeling, instead they will claim its the ‘holy ghost’, which is distinct from their feeling or emotion.
What is bible-literalist epistemology?
You moved to Utah to do a bible-literalist mission to Mormons?
What would you do if the church held a ‘great confession’ by the general authorities that said ‘sorry folks its all a sham, we appologize.’ (I believe this happened to the Worldwide Church of God) As wonderful as you think this might be, it could cause a lot of problems for the LDS population if this happened suddenly.
You believe that anyone who does not believe in the true Jesus will be punished for all eternity. The number of people who don’t believe, or have never heard the message number in the billions. What are your feelings about that? I know that you want to stay away from feelings as a basis for knowledge. Is this part of the reason why?
“Mormons tell us all the time to take our tough and deep questions to the young missionaries, because surely these guys know the answers”.
Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. All deep question, and nicely answered by some 60,000 full time Missionaries. What else does one need to know about the plan of Salvation, other then that God has again spoken from Heaven and Loves his children enough to restore what was once true, but lost for a time.
Regards, Richard.
What else does one need to know?
Faith in what and in whom?
What does it mean to repent and how does one do it?
Baptism by whom and where? What happens when one is baptized?
What is the gift and who is the Holy Ghost? Is it really a gift, or does it come with some other stuff?
See, each topic is not so straight forward, and these simple questions lead to huge discussions. It also becomes apparent that the words do not mean quite the same thing to LDS as they do to Christians.
I say this, Hank, not to criticize, but to state a simple and unavoidable truth. The four items you outline do not change much the questions that exist.
First, I think that most LDS missionaries would be able to respond to most everything put forth in the advice given, so please do so.
Second, the whole “feelings” is very misunderstood, and it is in the Bible. It is not a feeling, but communication from God that is through your feelings. We read in Acts 2 that the people were pricked in their hearts when they heard Peter preach. This was the spirit speaking to them, and they recognized it as such.
MichealP
Faith in God our Father, and in his power and desire to save all his children, but also in his justice that he will not give to any man that which is not earned (good or bad).
Repentance is the confessing and forsaking of sin. When we repent our primary concern is how we have offended God and how to make it right. We acknowledge what we did wrong, ask his forgiveness, and ask for power to not do it again.
Baptism is the complete emersion in water. It must be done by one with authority to do so, and in any body of water big enough for the purpose.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit being and the third member of the Godhead. When he are baptized by water we are then given the gift os his continual companionship baptism by fire and the spirit) but we must act in accordance with the laws of God or loose this gift.
Does that clarify it enough.
MICHEALP
What I have just explained is truly all one needs to know in order to gain the Celestial Kingdom. This does not Gauruntee Exaltation, but if one does not gain the Celestial Kingdom than they can’t gain Exaltation. This is why this is all the missionaries teach in general (of course there are other things, but this is the plan of salvation in its simplest form). The missionaries are there to bring people into the presence of God, which is the Celestial Kingdom. After that it is the general membership, and each individual who must do the rest.
Hanksaint,
“What else does one need to know about the plan of Salvation…”
That according to Mormons eternal marriage is required to achieve the highest state in the CK. Anything less is a degree of damnation. Men must hold the M.Priesthood, and members also need the enduement ceremony, know key words, tokens and passwords. Also that these ordinances are available to the dead who didn’t have the chance to hear the LDS message while in life.
Shem, even your response is incomplete and warrants more questions. This is all I am trying to point out in regards to Hanks comment. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost does not do it.’
And are you serious when you mean that this is all you need to reach the CK? Do you mean the TK?
Also, keep in mind that these same terms have very different meanings across the aisle (if you will). But even still, someone who knows nothing about these things must ask further questions to find out what is really going on.
Aaron
Thanks for the information on how to reach
out to Mormon Missionaries[MM]. My own
experience in talking with these young men
(and women) was some time ago now.In about
a five year period I was blessed to witness
to a dozen of them.Over all they conducted
themselves in a respectful manner.There was
only one that I would call arrogant. I wish
I would have incorporated some of the items
you mentioned, in my visit with them.
I realize that they are so regimented while
on their missions that to lead one to Jesus
then is remote.However,we can plant seeds
in their hearts and minds that will prove
fruitful once they are done with their
missions and have time to check things out.
Thanks again for the encouraging reminder
to reach out to these precious young people.
Just a reminder, the number of exmissionaries that go inactive is quite high. The missionary gig in and of itself seems to lead many of these people out of Mormonism. The problem is what I see as a high number of exmos that reject God all together.
When given a choice of the living God and the Mormon concept of God, I’m quite confident that the living God wins. He always wins. Jesus said something to the effect that a person cannot come to Him unless the Father draws them. So we can be quite patient with Mormon missionaries; take our time and let God’s Holy Spirit do His work. Again, we must remember that statistically half of these missionaries will go inactive any way. We need to plant seeds. I remember reading about a desert seed that lays dormant for years and at the right time grows into a flower. So plant and in God’s timing, the rain will fall and they will come to Him as He draws them.
“He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself according to the kind intention of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of His grace which He lavished upon us……..having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will……”
(Ephesians 1:5-11)
Mike R and Falcon,
That’s very valuable advise. Knowing that God will work in their hearts and that our job can be as simple as planting a seed is a powerful tool. It changes our focus from what we can do to relying on what God will do in their hearts. If we try to force the change, we are playing the role of God in a manner of speaking, and that, as we’ve discussed many a time, is no good.
Shem, another quick thought. From your response and Hanks it seems as if someone is to accept your answers without asking these further questions. Do you see how we can view that as a form of manipulation?
I served as an LDS missionary, many years ago (79-80). I remember one appointment in particular where a number of aunt eye Mormons invited us over. It felt more like a lynching that an open discussion of doctrine. I was a young kid- with no idea how to answer any of the questions being proposed. You need to keep in mind the perspective we (LDS missionaries) try to keep. It is all about the witness, and the direction of the Holy Spirit. For me, the Holy Spirit was often present when our audience was sincerely interested, but quite lacking when the audience was not. In that case, the audience was not. We learn to get out quick when the spirit is missing.
As to why ex missionaries go inactive, I would say it has more to do with sin than a lapse in belief. The many witnesses I have had that Mormonism is right have persisted in my memory as core belief. If I ever go inactive, it will be because I rebel against God to put selfish desires and sin above him, not because my belief in Mormonism has faded. Sorry falcon, I can’t buy that story, but that is par for the course.
GRCluff, I have to respond to your classic Mormon thinking here.
A) Because people aren’t interested means the spirit is not with you. Was that true when Moses spoke with Pharoah?
B) Sin is the primary reason many missionaries/LDS in general go inactive? I’d like to hear the ex-Mormons here discuss that in more detail, but I think the claim is a very general and broad brush that immediately condemns them for not being worthy. This is hardly a welcoming idea.
I’ll also give my thoughts on how I react to contentious thoughts and why people leave Christianity.
A) Contentious moments are tough but I think God works most in those times. If we are patient and listen (to Him and to our “adversary”), God will provide the answers. He’ll give us the words we need. If there’s something we don’t know, He’ll tell us how to handle the question, which will often be to simply say you don’t know but will research it. But in contentious situations there is no reason to think God and the Holy Spirit is not as much with us then as he is when we have a willing audience.
B) Christians leave for a variety of reasons. Sin is one, but I don’t think this is the primary reason. Sometimes it is a bad experience with a pastor, leader, or member of a church. Sometimes they read something that peaks some curiosity that leads them away from it. Sometimes, once the emotion of a “conversion” ebbs, they don’t see the immediate changes they expected and leave. Sometimes they don’t immerse themselves in the resources that may be needed to maintain on solid ground and give in to other thoughts. Sometimes the initial joining was to join a group that isn’t what they thought it would be, ie “following a crowd”. Sometimes they never got it from the beginning, and just lose interest.
The reasons are as varied as each individual. They do leave, and I am sad when they do. I don’t blame them; I mourn for them. Do they have a choice? Yes, they do, and I pray they come back.
Michael:
I think you missed an import part of my post. I was speaking about my personal experience as an LDS missionary, not expounding on the classic Mormon point of view.
One thing we focused on is recognizing the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was drilled into us from day one. I knew very little doctrine, but I got very skilled at recognising the presence of the Holy Ghost. That is what we focused on every hour of every day. We followed it’s direction, so trust me on this–
I knew when it was there, and when it was not.
When the spirit was not there, we got ourselves out.
The Bible describes us (LDS missionaries) very well in:
1 Cor 1:26-27
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
I could never qualify as a LDS missionary today, because I have learned too much!
GRCluff,
“For me, the Holy Spirit was often present when our audience was sincerely interested, but quite lacking when the audience was not. In that case, the audience was not. We learn to get out quick when the spirit is missing.”
What do you experience here?
GR, your experience or not, it is a classic Mormon response.
That they trained you on the issue of detecting the “Ghost” is really interesting. I’d think they’d be more focused on portraying God’s truth, and trusting him to provide it even through the toughest trials before teaching you to recognize when people are not interested.
Alas, chalk this up to a discussion that will not lead to a resolution… You are set in your ways, because you have been taught to trust in your testimony, and not in plain truths that cry out for you to listen.
Hanksaint,
“What else does one need to know about the plan of Salvation…”
Enki stated, “That according to Mormons eternal marriage is required to achieve the highest state in the CK. Anything less is a degree of damnation. Men must hold the M.Priesthood, and members also need the enduement ceremony, know key words, tokens and passwords. Also that these ordinances are available to the dead who didn’t have the chance to hear the LDS message while in life”.
Like I said, you first teach Faith, Repentance, Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Why would they teach much more when the milk comes before the meat. Once one is converted, one can be taught the blessing of the CK, one can be introduced to the Temple and the lessons given before the commitment. Understanding all that God has restored, even the Temple Endowment and Baptism for the dead, how exciting for the new members to learn the practice of baptism for the dead is a sense of justice. Billions of people have died without ever hearing the gospel of Christ and without having the chance to be baptized into his Church. How could God consign such people to damnation without giving them the chance to be saved? Surely he would give them that chance. But if they never heard the gospel in this life, when else could they hear and respond to it except in the next life?
Regards, Richard.
Mormons really miss the point of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so it’s important that when reaching out to Mormon missionaries that they hear the plain truth of what the Word of God teaches. I went through the sermons preached in the Book of Acts and it’s all comes down to a couple of salient points. That is, that we are lost in our sin, God has had mercy on us and provided the perfect sacrifice for our sin, by turning from our sin and receiving Jesus in faith we are granted eternal life.
What we don’t hear is “marry a bunch of women, do a bunch of works to purify yourselves for righteousness and you will become a god”. That particular gospel is a figment of the imagination of a false prophet and is easily rejected unless someone has given themselves over to a deceiving spirit.
Drawing a contrast between the living God and the multiple gods of Mormonism, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Joseph Smith will be enough to flip the switch of those who are open to God’s Spirit.
“I pray that the eyes of you heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of the inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.” (Ephesians 1:18-19)
GRCluff wrote
GR,
I know you’re kind of joking, but this touches on some serious issues.
Firstly, you seem to think that sending out young missionaries who don’t know too much is a good thing; as if ignorance and folly were vitrues. This can’t be good for their intended audience, who might rightly want better answers to their enquiries.
Secondly, this can’t be good for your missionaries. The analagy that springs to my mind is getting the young men to run up the beaches in Normandy in WW2 without telling them about how to deal with the machine guns at the top.
Then, there’s the related issue of whether they are preaching the same gospel as you (remember, the “preparatory” gospel and the “full” gospel thing). Maybe you wouldn’t qualify because you’d preach the wrong gospel?
Or, as I suggested in another post, the 2 year mission is less about spreading the word (which word, exactly?) and more about a rite of passage, or initiation into full adult membership of the cult.
This would fit my observation that the missionary effort is not for my benefit, its for the missionaries’ benefit.
Michael stated, “What else does one need to know?
Faith in what and in whom?
What does it mean to repent and how does one do it?
Baptism by whom and where? What happens when one is baptized?
What is the gift and who is the Holy Ghost? Is it really a gift, or does it come with some other stuff?
See, each topic is not so straight forward, and these simple questions lead to huge discussions. It also becomes apparent that the words do not mean quite the same thing to LDS as they do to Christians.
I say this, Hank, not to criticize, but to state a simple and unavoidable truth. The four items you outline do not change much the questions that exist.”
Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
Repenting is admitting we are sinners and come short of the Glory of God. Repenting is two fold, seeking forgiveness from God and also seeking forgiveness from others. Restitution is a form of Repentance.
Baptism by water, and can be performed most anywhere.
Baptism is the renewal of ones soul, a new birth in Christ and the acceptance of all of Gods Commandments and personal commitments to follow Christ as a new member in his Kingdom here on earth. It is the Gate which all must go through to receive membership.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit personage and part of the Godhead, the third person therein.
The Gift is to have his spirit to reside with us forever.
All of this is very straight forward and easy to understand. Wether they mean the same to you is not the issue, but what they mean to a person who studies the Bible it can be made clear to them of it’s truthfulness. Most other questions are part of the fulness of Christ Gospel and by reading and pondering one can know the truth through sincere prayer.
Regards, Richard.
Those who want to follow the findings of Falcon and disregard the fullness of the restored Gospel will find the light and knowledge they are desiring, but for those who want to learn the fulness as given to us in the Restored Church of Christ will be blessed with additional light and knowledge.
R.
GR Cluff,
Your statement, “As why ex-missionaries go
inactive, I would say it has more to do with
sin than a lapse in belief…”, sounds
familiar.I was privileged some years ago to
help facilitate an ex-JW support group, and
your reasoning sounds so similiar to what
ex-JW’s said about how their former friends
viewed them i.e. the problem was,nt Jehovah’s
organization led by His prophet, rather it
was them.They were defective.They had to have
some hidden sin etc.
Though sin can be a factor for some,you might
be surprised at the number of ex-misionaries/
LDS who choose to leave simply because they
found out that mormonism was,nt the truth.
Actually, Hank, that they have different meanings is of huge importance.
Your answer starts with the assumption that your faith is right, and it question it is not appreciated.
But it gets worse, because it shuts down debate. Instead of encouraging questions, you insinuate that it is simply better to take your word for it. (Here I go, more questions…) You say it is not your word, but Gods. But different faiths have different takes on the same words. So why should yours stand taller simply because you say so?
I agree that what you write is straight forward and easy to understand, but I think that is the problem with what it is that you present and why it is important these same terms have different meanings to you. Faith is Jesus as Lord and Savior has terribly different connotations to me than to you. Jesus to me is God, just as much as God is, but that’s not entirely true in yours. So, we need to flush yoour comments out even further. Repentance, why do we need to ask others for forgiveness? Only God saves. Not trying to say that it is a bad thing but it is not a requirement. Baptism, what about authority? What do you mean by a gate? The Holy Ghost explantion you give adds a term– the Godhead, what does that mean? Can his spirit leave and how and when?
See, the point is that each of these has further questions, and those questions can be answered in different ways than what you get out of them. I have not given those alternate answers due to space restraints, but you should know what they are by now.
Sincere prayer– how do you know when you are sincere? When you get the answers you provide? Kind of assuming you are right to begin with, doesn’t it? Testimonies? What about mine which says something different? Or a Muslims? Each of us will stand behond our testimony, so what use is that?
Your message starts simple, but it is anything but. And I think it is dishonest to say that it is.
I served a mission from 78-80. I was a convert to the church at 13. I loved the Joseph Smith that I learned about in Seminary every day before I went to High School. For me, my mission was a good experience at the time. I left the church in 1982. I had gone to BYU. At that time the archives of the church were open and I could not wait to find out all the stuff about Joseph Smith because He was the prophet of the restoration. What I found out devastated me. I read sermons by Brigham Young for the first time unedited. I saw that Joseph Smith was a liar, and that he made everything up as he went along, being influenced by Sidney Rigdon, Masonry, and all the other “restored doctrines” he incorporated into the Church to satisfy his lust for women and his enormous ego. You can slice it anyway you want, but Mormonism stands or falls by it’s so called prophets. How do you explain the almost 4,000 changes from the original Book of Mormon? How do you explain the Book of Abraham? I read the apologists, I met Hugh Nibley. He was desperate to prove that something, anything could be made out of those papyri. I was into the Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls and learned french to help me with the french translations only available then. But how do you explain the Kinderhook Brass plates, forged by others and then “translated” (he would have gone on had he not died) by JS? How do you explain men on the moon, blood atonement, spiritual wifery, and Smith’s desperate act to destroy the Expositor press in the face of his advances to Nancy Rigdon and JC Bennett’s reaction to it? After my mission I did not get on my knees to pray about the Book of Mormon, I prayed about Joseph Smith. I got a witness from God to leave. The next day I went back to Oregon and had my Stake President who I knew for 13 years to ex-communicate me. It was HARD. I was lost. Joseph went to Missouri and that was the original Garden of Eden…
There were mounds there that he said were Jaredite, and he put names to the people in the Graves…Zelph??? There is not one shred of physical evidence around the Hill Cumorah in New York (I live in Buffalo, I’ve been there many times)that a ‘great battle’ of millions took place there, then: oh, that’s not the original Hill Cumorah. Read the papers. Peruse his writings, if it makes you uncomfortable, you do not have to accept it on faith as you are told. There is not one teaching by Jesus I have ANY uncomfortable feelings about. He was simple. His gospel was simple. It was presented this way because God loves us and knew EVERYTHING before hand. When you talk to Missionaries, WITNESS to them about Jesus and the SIMPLIcitY of the Gospel. Use the timeline of Joseph Smith’s life and how everything he did was made up as circumstances dictated. Even David Whitmer said he went wrong after 1830. He admitted to seeing the plates with a “spiritual eye”. He was too proud to admit the whole thing was false. The witnesses families all knew it was a hoax, they were told by the witnesses. But by that time it was all they had and they had to stand or fall by it. They were not ready to make that committment, to the ruin of many good people. If a prophet lies, he is not of God, and HIS WHOLE WORK is in question. The Modern Prophets ALL LIED and they still do. The system benefits THEM. Where does your money go? for what? Question everything. Have faith in JESUS and his SIMPLE message of LOVE. I’ve been where you are, my fellow Mormons… pray about Joesph Smith and you will be told the truth….
I have one more short comment. To blame the escalating apostasy of ex-missionaries on sin is a very rude comment. From MY experience as a missionary, I did it out of love for the Church. (Misplaced, but still there at that time). Missionaries are leaving because of the availability of Knowledge about the Church as never before. It is like having only 3 cable channels in the 70’s to having thousands now. Salt Lake City can no longer control the flow of information. That is why the church flourished in the 1800’s. They were isolated in Utah. Don’t point the finger about sin, for we all sin. Doubt and anger at being lied to lead sometimes to a period of sin, but strong belief in God usually brings them back into the true fold of Christ, belief in his SIMPLE GOSPEL.
WOW grindael,
The falcon is left speechless. Turn off the lights. The party’s over.
Grindael,
Sorry to hear you asked to be excommunicated. But the reasons as you explain them sure don’t match mine since I studied most of what you claim is proof and find found it lacking in any hard evidence to support your personal criticisms. So be wise and turn the lights back on for the party and celebration are just beginning.
Regards, Richard.
Richard,
YOU have an explanation for Brigham Youngs statement that there are men living on the moon? I have to hear that one. The Kinderhook plates, care to give that a go? I know the apologitics stance on the BOA, if you want to believe that, its a shallow defense. How about Peter Whitmer? Even he disavowed JS, and polygamy, the priesthood, and Joseph making himself a God over his people. (Cross reference this with BY statement that no one gets into the Celestial Kingdom EXCEPT JS approves them.) Well, the one and only mediator MY one and only mediator is Jesus Christ. Why do I need “Brother Joseph” to get between me and my GOD? I dont think investigating is reading books by LDS apologists who DONT know what they are talking about. Why wont the LDS church reveal its assets? IS the Kingdom of Christ a secret to all? In Acts, everything was up front and as I recall one church member was struck dead for doing just that. Do a real investigation, FOR YOUR OWN SOUL. It hangs in the balance. If the LDS church had it’s way NO MAN WOULD KNOW JOSEPH SMITH’s HISTORY. They sure locked down the archives after they saw the results of honest reporting of the facts. There is a lot more there they held secret, even when I was lived in Provo in 1980. Why? They bought up Mark Hoffman’s documents to hide, and he was a fake. They didn’t even know that, still making the same mistakes JS did with the Kinderhook plates. Brother, search your heart, come to Christ and your life will be brighter, richer and deeper than you can ever imagine. Get out from under the shadow of Joseph Smith. You have my prayers,
sincerely, john s [grindael]
Oh, and Richard,
I never said the lights were off. The light of revelation led me away from the Mormon Church. I had the courage to step out of the shadow of Joseph Smith, Do You?
Michael,
Yes there are different meaning to Evangelicals, and to clarify them you need to have Creeds and made up terms, such as Triune God, Rapture etc, etc.
Never have I gone out and preached the Gospel of Christ and expected anyone to take my word for it as a LDS Member. I qualify that the truth comes from the Holy Ghost and also a great deal of study and pondering. Sincere prayer is from the heart, and with a contrite spirit that is a result of giving away of ones pride and seeking to be humble before God. What is so complex about the simple things one needs to do to be prepared to receive answers, James 1:5.
I don’t see the difference between you and I when I claim that Jesus is my Lord and Savior, what else could that mean. He saves mightily,
loves unconditionally, and forces no one to Heaven.
Jesus to me is also God, He is the literal Son of God and Second in the Godhead. He is the God of the Old Testament who spoke to all his prophets under the direction of God the Father. He created the earth and the heavens. He placed Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Repentance! of course we believe that there is a need to seek forgiveness from other, those who we have done wrong too, and if necessary try to restore that wrong by doing all we can to make restitution with them. We need to forgive others who have wronged us. How can we expect God to forgive if we can’t forgive others?
The Godhead is like a Presidency. President, 1st counselor, second counselor. All together they comprise the First Presidency. God the Father, God His Son, and God the Holy Ghost. One Godhead, one purpose, one Gospel.
You say you have a Testimony, I believe you. My Testimony is that Jesus is the Christ. The Gospel of Christ has been Restored in it’s fullness, and that man has been given the Authority (priesthood) to act in His name. How can one be Baptized without receiving it from someone who has the authority to baptize.
Regards, Richard.
There is a BIG difference between the Jesus of the Mormons, and the Jesus of the Bible. This is very important, for Jesus commanded us: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth” (JN4:22)
The Gospel of John proves that Jesus was God. “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God.” Then, “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” John wrote his gospel this way becasue he knew that Jesus and God were one being. He did not write Jesus was A god, and this is bourne out in many other passages.
What the Mormons do, (and other ‘Christian’ groups) is try to seperate God into Three Beings by misquoting, and misunderstanding the Bible.
I’ll use an example: Stephen when he was stoned saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father. If you study the scriptures you see, as in Ex.15:6 “Thy right hand, Oh Lord, is become glorious in power, thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.”
And: Ex.15:12 “Thou stretched out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.”
The right hand here, does not mean a location, but the power and authority of God.
Again: Isa.63:12 “That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?” Another example of how “right hand” is used to describe power. But how many sit on the throne of Almighty God?
Rev.4:2 answers this. “And immediately I was in the spirit and behold, a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne.” Who was this the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost?
This is how we can understand passages as Hebrews 10:12 “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
By looking at these verses in the distorted Mormon view you see two persons, but John saw only one on the throne.
If God is omnipresent how then can you sit down on His right side? If God is a Spirit how then can one sit down on the right side of Him?
Grindael,
Again sorry to hear of you excommunication. On Kinderhook, would you please produce his translation, none that I know of. Who is Peter Whitmer? but as for David Whitmer, we have the following for those interested:
David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness
Lyndon W. Cook, ed.
Brigham Young:
“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?…when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)n W. Cook, ed.
Sounds wacky today, but I give him credit for some serious speculation. It’s not much different than the common belief amongst Evangelicals that Ex Nihilo is viable and believable, earth was created in six day, and someone can explain the unexplainable, Triune God.
Joseph Fielding Smith said: [There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
Brigham Young stated: “no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).
I agree with Joseph Fielding Smith and so do many others. Brigham just words it differently, but means the same thing.
I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this e
continued:
I will now tell you something that ought to comfort every man and woman on the face of the earth. Joseph Smith, junior, will again be on this earth dictating plans and calling forth his brethren to be baptized for the very characters who wish this was not so, in order to bring them into a kingdom to enjoy, perhaps, the presence of angels or the spirits of good men, if they cannot endure the presence of the Father and the Son; and he will never cease his operations, under the directions of the Son of God, until the last ones of the children of men are saved that can be, from Adam till now.
Should not this thought comfort all people? They will, by-and-by, be a thousand times more thankful for such a man as Joseph Smith, junior, than it is possible for them to be for any earthly good whatever. It is his mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption. You will be thankful, every one of you, that Joseph Smith, junior, was ordained to this great calling before the worlds were.” (Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, 7:288-90)
“It must be remembered that Mark Hofmann’s sensational forgeries Hofmann’s “discoveries,” all of which were eventually shown to be forgeries, are now known to have been the products of a combination of low, mercenary motives and a passion to harm the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” Louis Midgley
“Why would they teach much more when the milk comes before the meat.”
I love this statement, and how often I hear it.
This is what I think. The “Meat” of the Mormon Org. is full of a bunch of crap. The milk (BOM) Contradicts the meat (BOA, as one example)
The LDS milk does not include some very significant parts of the Mormon Theology; it does not include what I would consider deal breakers. So if you do not tell a perspective investigator the deal breakers, you have effectively took away their free agency. This is lying by omission. I don’t believe God could or would lie under any condition. What are the Deal Breakers, the Multiplicity of Gods, Polygamy in Heaven, to name a few.
So why not teach that JS did not follow his own laws, D&C 132:61 “…and the first give her consent, ” (Saying the first wife must give her consent for the plurality of marriage) From what I under stand Emma did not give her consent. Also no where in any Mormon papers does it say it is ok to take another “living” mans wife away from him. These are important issues, but just examples, don’t obese on the examples, look at the issues as a whole.
I reject you meat because it is tainted, I reject your milk because it is sour.
One last question, do Mormon’s think they have a Monopoly on how to “Feel” the Holy Ghost because they think that you only receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the lying of hands? I have felt the Holy Ghost more, after I left the darkness of Mormonism then when I was in it. As a matter of fact, I believe that God led me out of the Mormon Organization. I know this because I have been since blessed with spiritual gifts far exceeding anything the Mormons could offer.
There’s a song that Don Meridith use to sing on Monday night football when the game was over because one team was so far ahead but there was some time left on the clock. The tag line for the song was “Turn out the lights. The party’s over”. I used it to compliment grindael on the fantastic job he is doing here to present a clear contrast between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the gospel of Joseph Smith.
I believe the Word of God and the testimony of the Holy Spirit are so strong that those who aren’t totally under control of a spirit of deception, will respond to the living God’s offer of eternal life in Jesus Christ through faith.
Joseph Smith told people that there were countless gods and that men could become gods also. He told them that to achieve the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom, they would have to practice polygamy. He borrowed rituals from Free Masonry to further pull people into the vortex of deceit and reinforce his false gospel. The Mormon church and Joseph Smith have become objects of worship for Mormons. The machine of Mormonism controls people only as long as they believe the false gospel. When people turn to God’s Word the Bible and see revealed there the awesome and true god, the gospel of Joseph Smith shrinks into nonexistence.
Mormons have to take that first spiritual step of true revelation in coming to know who God is. Not a sinful man who through his own efforts became a god. It’s so plain, the contrast. Only a heart that is broken and seeking after God will come to know Him for who He really is.
Grindael,
It’s a great blessing to hear of another LDS
who has seen the vast difference between the
religion of Joseph Smith and a relationship
with Jesus Christ, and has chosen to accept
Jesus.
Grindael, keep preaching the truth, brother. Men such as Richard cannot come to faith unless the Holy Spirit softens their hearts, as He did with yours. Your experience as a former follower of Joseph Smith can do more to bring those like you to salvation than you know. My parents were former JW’s. They left the cult over 30 years ago, but were so spiritually damaged by the lies they were told that they were unable to understand the simplicity of the gospel. I gave them the gospel countless times and they did not understand it. Then, last summer they met a former lifelong JW who gave them the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ from the perspective of a former JW. It clicked. The lights went on, my parents understood, and were instantly converted. I will never forget the phone conversation I had with my father last April when he explained the gospel as he now understood it, and it was the same gospel that I preach! Hallelujah (Praise Jahweh)! It is an answer to years of prayer.
This is for you, too Setfree. I know you are frustrated at the lack of response from the Smithians who post here, but you may never know who you have reached until you enter the Kingdom. Keep planting and keep laying the foundation.
Hank, have you ever noticed that Christians don’t give applause to Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or any other prophet. We explain the lives of the Apostles from the same perspective as we explain our own lives. They once were lost, but they were saved by the glorious grace of Jesus Christ, and none of them take any credit for exceptional spiritual wisdom that allowed them to understand the gospel, while others did not. On the contrary. They understood that it was by God’s grace alone that they even understood the gospel, formerly being blinded by the god of this world, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. We do not mention them for any other purpose than to say they are the means by which the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ came to us: by their writings. If we were to offer them as much deference as you offer the man JS, they would tell us to get off of our faces, because they are men just like us.
And do not put the Smithian spin on statements by BY, as if his statements were just meant to illustrate that the restored gospel came through him. There is no doubt that they placed Smith in a position of judge of men’s souls above Jesus Christ. Smith himself claimed he was greater than Christ in his ability to keep the LDS together, stating that not even Jesus was able to keep a church together like he did. This shows that he believed that the LDS church was actually the Church of Joseph Smith, which is how I have been, and will continue to refer to you who are kept in bondage by the teachings of that man. Just like followers of Mohammed were formerly called Mohammedans, and followers of Zoroaster are Zoroastorians, Pythogoras, Pathogorians, Pelagius, Pelagians, etc.
Smith separated himself from the followers of Jesus Christ, and since you follow his heretical teachings, so have you. I implore you in the name of Jesus Christ to look at the evidence as so many others have done, and realize that the teachings of JS are not of Christ.
And Richard, because I am writing, my tone will be the one that you manufacture from your perspective. Please understand that what I have written to you is not from anger at all. It is from genuine concern and love for your soul. It is obvious that you fiercly believe everything that write, just as I do. Remember, the Apostle Paul was so zealous for his false beliefs, towards the early followers of a “crucifed man” who were threatening to destroy his precious Judaism and Pharisaism, that he requested letters from the Sanhedrin that he be allowed to go to Damascus to arrest every Christian there. Paul must have been a man of authority within the Sanhedrin to be given the ability to do this. It was not like he walked in off the street.
But when Christ came to him on the road he was knocked off his horse, and subsequently his life was changed forever from being an enemy of Christ to being one of His greatest servants. His former allies in the Sanhedrin would not listen to the testimony of one they formerly respected and his message of truth, but instead sought to kill him, even though he proved that Jesus was the Messiah from the very scriptures he shared in common with them! Talk about spiritual blindness!
Please, I offer you a challenge. Read the Bible as a stand-alone witness of Christ for one month, without importing Smithian doctrine into it. Especially John, Romans, and for the follower of JS, Galatians and Hebrews. You will find that JS teachings are in direct opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ, not a restoration. For the things Smith brought up from his imagination are nothing more than re-hashed heresies of the past, which hundreds of Christians in “conference” declared to be false on several occasions. These “conferences” took place over the course of many months. Their findings, codified in the creeds that you so hate, are based upon the Bible, and do not contradict it in any way. They would label JS as a heretic, no doubt.
One of the fundamentals of human performance and achievement psychology is that if a person can vividly imagine what they want to achieve and then couple that image/vision with a strong positive emotion (repeatedly), the person will move to the achievement of their goal. This is the same basic psychology of a Mormon’s testimony. The person is emotionally preset via suggestion, regarding the “truthfulness” of the BoM. The BoM has some Bible mixed-in with some 19th century evangelical Christian revivalism that can create a positive emotion and BINGO the person interprets the feeling as a message from God that the BoM is true. Rational thought and evidence don’t hold a candle to a strongly held emotion coupled with a belief.
That’s why it’s so difficult for a super committed Mormon to break free. They felt it! The “it” was a message from God. They’ll fight like their life depended on it (which they believe it does)to maintain that belief. They’ll tell you that what they felt wasn’t run of the mill emotions. This emotion was a special feeling. It just had to be God speaking to them. They’ll fool themselves into thinking that they’ve never ever had this exact same emotion and even if they did they’d deny it.
The people who break free do so on the basis of a break through in their thinking that counter acts their emotions. Generally it happens because a competing emotion neutralizes their former feeling.
Jesus talked about how it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Actually the “eye of the needle” was an actual space that loaded camels were guided through with some difficulty. Jesus also instructed the rich young ruler to give-up everything and follow him. The Mormon men who post here are like that rich young ruler. The thought of giving-up what they see as the riches of godhood is just too powerful and intoxicating to let go. In-the-end they lose it anyway because it’s an emotional fantasy.
Grindael,
What is wrong with David or any of the other witnesses seeing the plates with their ‘spiritual eyes’ if that is how they saw them? In one of the references you gave it states Rev.4:2 answers this. “And immediately I was in the spirit and behold, a throne was set in heaven and one sat on the throne.” So did John see this with his natural eyes or his spiritual eyes? I gave a list of scriptures from the Bible a few weeks ago which teach about seeing things with spiritual eyes, it is all through the NT and some references in the OT. If you can accept the Bible then you can accept this claim by David Whitmer, even if you don’t want to believe what he is talking about.
Why didn’t John write that Jesus was ‘A God’? Because in the language he wrote in they did not have ‘a’ or ‘the’ or anything similar so when the translation was rendered it was written without any prepositions as a literal translation. But the same word used here for ‘god’ is also used in Corinthians when describing the devil as being the god of this world. Does this make the devil ‘God’ or ‘a god’?
Why was one throne seen in Rev 4:2? Because it is the throne of God and He is the one sitting on it. One could also say that Jesus is also sitting on it – meaning that 2 people are on it. But wait, there’s more – all those who make it to heaven will also sit on it with Jesus and Heavenly Father. So it may be an easy question, but it’s a trick answer. If you want to know where I get my interpretation see Rev 3:21. But then again, the reference you give in Hebrews 10:12 clearly states that Jesus sat down on the right hand of God, so may be it’s just God (Heavenly Father) sitting on the throne and Jesus is sitting next to it on His own throne, like a prince with His Father.
Lastly, if you want to call a prophets’ work suspect if he has lied, then you are condemning Abraham, Isaac, Moses and Peter, to name a few. We do not know what the prophets who wrote the Bible did through all their lives but we do know they were just men. So I would say that they all would have lied at least once in their life.
My very best friend in high school went on a mission.
While there, a man invited he and his companion over to dinner. When they came for dinner, he fed them and then sat them down in front of two books… one was older JW “scripture”, one was newer, and he pointed out the differences. My friend didn’t know much about JW’s, but he thought that it was really interesting what had happened in their religion.
The next week, they went back for dinner again. This time, the host fed them, and then pulled out the Tanner’s stuff. My friend says that he was blown away by all the changes.
He took the Tanners’ book with him, went to see his mission president, plopped the book in front of him and said “what do you want to tell me about this?!”
THAT NIGHT, he was forced to pack all of his things, and move out to the middle of nowhere with what he calls a “strong-arm” elder companion. He was demoted to junior companion, he lost his letter writing and phone calling privileges. His father was called, and the father said “don’t embarrass the family, stay out there”.
So for the last 6 months of his mission, he was forced to remain, though he did not believe the “church is true”.
He is an ex-Mo.
My cousin and her husband were both missionaries. The bulk of their families and friends still are, and they’re finding it hard to “disengage” from their community. But they are out of the church, in their hearts. The thing that led them to start doing all the research was their sin? Hardly. It was that they figured out the connections to Freemasonry.
I want to thank my Christian family out here on MC for their words of support. Notice how they rallied around me? I can’t speak for them, but I’d dare say that when Christ becomes your living Water, His love flows out of you. They love me because God is love, they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and they’re part of Jesus’ body. Parts of the body work together… (thanks again)
Grindael,
It’s obvious that you have been anointed to preach the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Mormons. Very powerful!
Hank,
I see that creation “ex nihilo” is a stumbling block. Here’s something for you to consider: it’s a stumbling because you don’t truly grasp the immensely infinite power and holiness of God. I understand this is a truth that is difficult to wrap our brains around, but here’s how it works: God, who is omni-EVERYTHING, by the power of His Word spoke into nothingness–and the power of His Word generated nothingness into matter that immediately obeyed His voice because of the honor that is naturally commanded on the grounds of His holy character. That’s astonishing and difficult for us mere mortals with finite minds to understand. So, when God said “Let there be light,” light came into existence. He did not merely organize matter that already existed and predated God. God is the Creator of all things; there was nothing created that He did not create; therefore, there is nothing that could predate Him. I pray you will come to a saving knowledge of God.
Ralph,
JS has left you and all other Mormons as orphans to defend his heretical lies. When one addmits their ignorance to His Truth, TRUE revelation regarding His Word is received. I wish you could see that the arguments JS has left you with make no sense whatsoever, and appear as the desperate efforts of one who knows in his heart that he is believing lies, but clings to the lies because following the truth is a frightening prospect.
Peace and Grace to all…
setfree,
Thanks for sharing that. It’s very helpful. We don’t know what will hit the switch with someone. With Lyndon Lamborn it was a coworker who read “Under The Banner Of Heaven” and said to Lyndon, “There’s some interesting things in that book about your religion.” Lyndon had read “Into Thin Air” by the same author and thought he’d give “Banner” a shot. That led him to investigate the Mormon church’s history. Now here’s a guy (Lyndon) who’s Mormon roots go back to the wagon train days and whose family were polygamists on both sides. He’d served a mission and was happy in the Mormon church. But Lyndon had way too much integrity to stay in the church after he learned what he did. If someone wants to hear his story just go to YouTube and search for Lyndon Lamborn-excommunicated. It’s a seven part presentation. I’ve done a little e mailing back and forth with Lyndon. He’s just published his book about his journey out of Mormonism and focuses on the psychological aspects of making the break.
I’m sure there are numerous reasons why someone leaves Mormonism. Mormons need to get over the idea that these folks are evil reprobates heading for outer darkness. It seems that Mormon missionaries would be a great group to evangelize. I’ve got to figure out a way to find me some. They’re a rare commodity where I live although I saw four of them in a restaurant about a month ago. If I’d been alone I’d have pulled up a chair and introduced myself. I’ll figure something out.