The ability to earn one’s own salvation is an important distinction in the teachings of the Mormon Church. Using the Book of Mormon passage that a person is saved “by grace after all (he or she) can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), LDS leaders throughout the years have made it abundantly clear that grace only takes a person to the dance, but the onus of one’s salvation is placed on the shoulders of the 14 million members and their good works.
This was made very clear in Seventy Jorge F. Zeballos’s message titled “Attempting the Impossible,” which he delivered during the Fall 2009 General Conference; it is printed in the November 2009 Ensign (pp. 33-34). Let’s provide some of Zeballos’s quotes to show what I mean:
- Quoting 3 Nephi 12:48 (“Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect”), Zeballos said that the Father and Jesus “are the models to be followed by each one of us.” It ought to be pointed out that this passage obviously came from Matt. 5:48;
- Zeballos said, “From a purely human point of view, at first this seems to be an impossible task. However, it begins to appear possible upon understanding that in order to achieve it, we are not alone.” Those he says will help an individual attain this perfection include the Father and Jesus.
- He then quotes D&C 14:7, which says, “And if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.” Zeballos promises that “this divine promise is possible to achieve.”
- Attaining this, he said, is necessary if we hope to “live with our Father and with our families forevermore.” In fact, “should not this promise be the greatest incentive to do the best within our reach and give the best of ourselves in pursuit of what has been promised to us?”
- “These rewards,” he said, “will be for those who nurture faith in Jesus Christ and comply with His will to work, sacrifice, and give all they have received to strengthen and build the kingdom of God.”
- Furthermore, “the fulfillment of the divine promise to have eternal life, to achieve perfection, and to be happy forevermore in the family unit is subject to the sincere demonstration of our faith in Jesus Christ, obedience to the commandments, perseverance, and diligence throughout our lives.”
- Fascinatingly enough, he declares, “The Lord does not expect that we do what we cannot achieve. The command to become perfect, as He is, encourages us to achieve the best of ourselves… (and) to realize our potential as children of God.”
- He adds, “The invitation and challenge to become perfect, to achieve eternal life is for all mankind.”
These quotes are interesting because, after motivating his audience to achieve perfection, Zeballos appears to back off from his hard teaching. This is indicated when he said,
“God will not require more than the best we can give because that would not be just, but neither can He accept less than that because that would not be just either. Therefore, let us always give the best we can in the service of God and our fellowmen…. Let us do the best we can and each day be a little better.”
The “trying your best” idea has been around for a long time, but President Spencer Kimball said this was a weak position. Kimball wrote the following in his 1969 book The Miracle of Forgiveness:
“Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin. To try with a weakness of attitude and effort is to assure failure in the face of Satan’s strong counteracting efforts. What is needed is resolute action” (p. 164).
Kimball then tells a story of a soldier who told his officer that he would “try” to fulfill an order. After he was reprimanded, the soldier told the officer that he would do his “best.” When the officer rejected this as not being good enough, the soldier said that he would “do it or die.” Kimball wrote,
“To this the now irate officer responded: ‘I don’t want you to die, and I don’t want you merely to do the best you can, and I don’t want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission’” (p. 164).
To conclusively show that to try one’s best is all that the LDS God requires, Kimball concluded the section this way:
“To ‘try’ is weak. To ‘do the best I can’ is not strong. We must always do better than we can. This is true in every walk of life…. With the inspiration from the Lord we can rise higher than our individual powers, extend far beyond our own personal potential” (p. 165).
Perhaps Zeballos knew that trying is weak, because toward the end of his sermon he appeared to revert back to his original hard-line stance. In the last minute of his sermon, he provided a line from the title of his sermon that made things appear very clear:
“Even when, from a purely human perspective, perfection can appear an impossible challenge to achieve, I testify that our Father and our Savior have made known to us that it is possible to achieve the impossible. Yes, it is possible to achieve eternal life. Yes, it is possible to be happy now and forever” (emphasis mine).
What a confusing message! According to a current LDS general authority who was speaking at a general conference—a place where doctrine can be taught and clarified before the membership—complete obedience is necessary. The only way a person can find happiness is achieving the impossible. Yet can anyone actually achieve what is impossible? Oh, what a hopeless, confusing message that Mormonism offers!
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Comments within the parameters of 1 Peter 3:15 are invited.
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The means by which Mormons accept the false gospel of the false prophet Joseph Smith is a feeling that they ignorantly suppose is a confirming message from God; a revelation. That is, they thought something, prayed about it, felt good, therefore it’s from God and true. What a total recipe for disaster.
They further wrongly surmise that Christians don’t believe in divine inspiration or revelation. this supposition is pretty self-serving on their part since such a false premise makes them think Mormons are super spiritual folks; superior to Biblical orthodox Christians.
Mormons have all kinds of these false premises that locks them in pride, arrogance and false hope. Wrong information leads to wrong conclusions but in the minds of Mormons they have created this personal reality which serves them quite well in believing a false gospel.
Andy Watson has some great stories regarding his personal interactions with Mormons. One of my favorites is the one about the two missionaries who brought in this elderly man to front for them. The old guy claimed to have seen Jesus! Quite a feather in his spiritual headdress. Andy always uses Mormon source material when talking to Mormons, but this old guy who had “seen” Jesus would have none of it. He waved off the shelves of LDS materials Andy has and bolted out of the house leaving the door wide open. When faced with reality, he became agitated and ran away. He preferred his own false revelation and “vision” to the facts of the matter. In fact the gentleman swore up and down that Mormonism did not teach that men could become gods.
BTW, if Mormons want to see Jesus all they really need to do is employ the methods used by Joseph Smith and especially Martin Harris who was having all sorts of visions and visitations continually. It’s called second sight vision and it’s a great substitute for reality and a method that can lead a person into the spirit world if they really want to venture there. I wouldn’t really recommend it however.
Falcon,
You said “If someone believes in and accepts Jesus’ atoning sacrifice it would logically follow that they would believe in and trust what the Bible says.”.
Exactly – this is what we do with the BoM and living prophets. Because we believe in Jesus and His words in the Bible, and through this we believe that He has sent us the BoM and prophets in these days. Thus we can believe in them and trust them to tell us God’s word for this day and age. Since man must live by every word that comes from God, our faith in Jesus then has us believing and following the BoM and prophets.
The importance they have to our salvation is that they relay God’s word to us, which we must follow – BUT it all hinges on our faith in Jesus first. Just like you believe in and follow the words in the Bible, we believe in and follow the words of the Bible, BoM and our living prophets. But is it all based on our faith in Jesus.
As I keep saying, the main difference is that you believe that one is saved right then and there when they ‘accept’ Jesus regardless of what they have and will do. Whereas we believe that we will be saved on the Day of Judgment where our faith will be judged on our life and the fruit of our faith (ie works).
Forgive me but this is my first time to read from the lost scroll of Dr Martin….i will have to take time to see what he says the Bible really means since the Bible is “complete”.
When we stand before God and He says, Why should I let you into My heaven?
what book is this in? this smells like false Gospel because I have always read that Jesus will judge us and I can’t find the verse where He “asks” us why?
these types of innuendo are examples of dangerous teachings.
So if the day of judgement actually consists of a more different “test” what will be your response? The Ev clearly denies the true meaning of what Jesus means when He turns away those who do not “know” Him from being judged…because “knowing” will simply not be enough for Him.
and yes it is to “know” Jesus not to “reason” Jesus.
yes, spock was important but so was bones, and both mad capt kirk better…who would you like to be (feel free to insert Mormon space trave joke here, cuz what else do you got?)
Ralph,
You said, “Because we believe in Jesus and His
words in the Bible, and through this we believe
that he has sent us the BM and prophets.”
Ralph, where in the Bible did Jesus say He would
send us new scripture and prophets?
That’s right Ralph and that’s why Mormons aren’t Christians. The Bible tells us that “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the Likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh…” (Romans 8:1-3) That’s the assurance of salvation that someone who has repented and received God’s free gift of eternal life has.
We don’t have the same religion Ralph. The problem you have is that you’ve accepted a false premise of Mormonism being original Christianity until a dastardly conspiracy eliminated it from the Bible and I might add, Church history. Study the Bible and Church history and Mormonism is no where to be found because it never existed.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is that man is lost in his sin and unable to bridge the gulf between himself and a holy God. God sent His only begotten Son as propitiation/satisfaction for that sin debt. That’s the whole point of the Good News. God didn’t want us in a guessing game always wondering if we’ve done enough to merit the reward He has prepared for us. But that’s Christianity and you’ve been exposed to the message of the Good News of Jesus Christ continuously since you’ve been on this blog. You just keep resisting the Holy Spirit and have decided to follow a false gospel.
First John 5:13 says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.” That’s the hope I have. The mercy and love of God testified to by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I can’t add anything to what God has already done for me in Christ Jesus my Lord.
Ralph you can continue with your belief in Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church, the current prophet and the add on of your own futile works inside and outside the temple. It’s a total dead end.
Falcon,
Well said.
“….the Hebrews applied the blood of the Passover lamb to their door frames. The death angel passed over their homes when he saw the blood. Thats why we dont add anything to the blood of Christ. Thats Christianity.”
yet this does not appear in both Matthew and Luke, so though “true Christians” do not ADD apparently subtracting is acceptable.
This type of wholesale cherry-picking of scriptures to “condemn” and “accuse” is not the intent of the scriptures. This type of usage of God’s Word is exactly what an apostasy is grown from. Mischaracterizations, false accusations, witch hunts, and insults doth a Gospel make not.
There is a real cry for help in this type of post and it is the brand of Ev not often seen, but its bitter taste is all too familiar
This is for the Mormons who actually have the capacity to read, understand and learn.
Exodus 12:21-23
The Passover lamb was a type and foreshadow of the Lord Jesus Christ, (John 1:29, First Corinthians 5:6-7, First Peter 1:18-19.)
The hyssop here may represent faith. It was a common plant of the field. As the hyssop plant was used to apply the lamb’s blood in the OT, so faith applies the blood to the human heart in the NT. (Ephesians 2:8-9) It should be observed, however, that the mere death of the lamb did not automatically save anyone until the shed blood was applied.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He is the perfect sacrifice for sin. He was God incarnate the only One qualified to make the sacrifice. Nothing can be added to what Jesus did on the Cross. This is the Christian message of Good News to mankind. God provides those who repent and come to Him in faith, accepting the sacrifice He made, with the assurance of salvation.
It’s pride that keeps Mormons from hearing and accepting God and His plan of salvation. They are blinded by a deceptive and cunning message that tells them that they can become gods. Intoxicated by this false belief, Mormons rebel against God, instead choosing an idol god of their own making.
You know, I had a thought that has been drifting in and out of my mind today.
Evangelicals on here have been accused of being much like the pharisees, however, of course, from my point of view it is Mormonism that could easily be labeled “pharisees”.
My argument for this is that LDS authority and members alike seem to be very much about “the law”. i.e. Commandments, covenants, rituals.There is a general feeling I get when they speak of these things which is a “elitist, holier than thou” feeling. It doesn’t at all feel the way I do when I think about Christ’s life on earth and what the scriptures testify of. I feel much like a burden is lifted, not forced upon me.
Because I feel “light” with Christ, I have a deep sense of gratitude which calls me to action for my Savior. I do it only because of what He has done for me. Not because God will hook me up with deity, but because I am free, redeemed. These are good works that come from the heart of one saved which I think hold much more weight than works done for that PLUS some goodies i would get in Heaven.
In response to Sub’s accusation…
Sub,
I’ll attempt to engage you as I would engage any person (Ev, Mormon, or whatever) on this.
I would actually agree with you in part. The Jewish/Christian debate is all about how to interpret the OT. The Jews would argue that the Christian interpretation of the OT relies on translating literal references metaphorically. What I mean is, the Jews might argue that “Israel” and the “Kingdom of God” refer to geo-political Israel, whereas the Christians argue that it is a mental concept.
So, to the Jew, membership of Israel means circumcision and (to a greater or lesser extent) living in Jerusalem, Haifa, Tel Aviv or anywhere within the geo-political entity that is modern Israel. To the Christian, membership of the True Israel means living under the Kingship of God, the True King. I’ll call this the “literal” approach.
Furthermore, to the Jew, the Messiah is a geo-political leader (much like the Maccabees). I have heard it said that traditional Jews don’t consider Jesus to be a false Messiah; rather they see him as a failed Messiah. According to this line of thougth, one thing that Messiahs don’t do is get themselves killed before they can establish their government.
So, according to this argument, the worst that you can say of the Christians is that they have a very esoterical reading of the OT. According to this assertion, Christians are, indeed, guilty of “cherry picking” scripture. I’ll call this the “esoteric” approach.
However, what Paul goes at length to explain, particularly in his letter to the Romans, is that this so-called “esoteric” interpretation of scripture is actually how scripture wants us to read. That’s why he expends so much ink talking about Abraham. His underpinning premise is that, because it was so with Abraham, it should have been through all the history that followed.
…ctd…
…ctd…
So, Paul argues that the “literal” approach is wrong, and we should be looking beyond the immediate story of scripture for the will of God.
This gets us right back on topic, because what Paul argues is that its not about building Temples, its about what the Temple tells us. And what the Temple tells us is that we need a Messiah just like Jesus.
What I posted earlier was that the Temple cannot save us from our sins. It didn’t in 587BC, and it didn’t in AD70. In fact, the people were using the Temple to facilitate their sins.
The Good News is that Jesus can, and does, save us from our sins. That’s because God writes a New Covenant in the hearts of His people
Jeremiah 31:33.
Remember that Jeremiah is writing in the context that the Temple is, or has been, fully operational. (I really wish the debate on faith vs works would take place in the context of the purpose, function and limitations of the Temple).
Getting back to your objection, then, we could say that Christians have “cherry picked” OT scripture, but that is the essence of the Christian revelation. In other words, Christians see Christ in scripture. Others might see something else, like the revelation of a religion, or the opening of the human psyche through the written word, but none of these alternative explanations provide an adequate explanation for the New Testament.
If, as you might assert, the Christians have “cherry picked” the OT, the result is the NT.
Only you can decide for yourself whether the NT is a valid interpretation of the OT. However, if you say it is not, then you divorce yourself from the Christian revelation (and, its worth repeating here, your 8AoF).
PS
I think sub referred to me earlier as “Dr Martin”.
I get the joke, but, for the record, you are overstating my qualifications.
Also, I think you were quoting me when I suggested that God might ask “Why should I let you into my heaven?”.
No, I was not quoting the Bible. However, I was addressing the misconception that many people have; that they have a right to enter Heaven, and God doesn’t really get the final say in the matter one way or the other.
Oops,
To correct my poor editing above…
I was using the term “literal approach” to refer to a literal interpretation of scripture; that is “literal” (geo-political) Israel, a “literal” or material Temple, physical circumcision etc.
My use of the term “esoteric approach” refers to a metaphoric Israel, an immaterial Temple (Hebrews 12:18) and “circumcision of the heart” (see Romans 2:29) etc.
The Bible clearly teaches that we are separated from God by our sin. That our sin is a result of our sin nature. This sin nature was inherited from Adam. In-other-words like nature begets like nature. This sin nature was imputed to mankind. In like fashion righteousness was imputed to believers through the act of Christ’s substitutionary atonement on the Cross (Romans 5:18-19).
Paul says that through faith a man is justified before God. James says that through works a man is justified before men. Paul says faith is the root of justification. James says works is the fruit of justification. In-other-words good works don’t make a good man, but a good man does good works.
The results of justification are:
1) the remission of sin’s penalty (Acts 13:38-39, Romans 4:7, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:33-34, Second Corinthians 5:21, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 4:32, Colossians 2:13, Romans 6:23).
2) The restoration to divine favor (Romans 5:1-11). and
3) The imputation of Christ’s righteousness (Second Corinthians 5:21, First Corinthians 1:30, Matthew 22:11, Luke 15:22-24, Romans 4:11).
Man justifies only the innocent, but God only the guilty. Man justifies on the basis of self-merit, but God on the basis of the Saviour’s merit.
Justification is that legal act whereby man’s status before God is changed for the good. The method of justification is by grace through faith. God declares that the sinner is no longer exposed to the penalty of the law and is restored to His (God’s) favor.
What’s the difference between “justification” and “sanctification”? Justification deals with our standing, while sanctification deals with our state. Justification is that which God does for us, while sanctification is that which God does in us. Justification is an act, while sanctification is a work. Justification is the means, while sanctification is the end. Justification makes us safe, while sanctification makes us sound. Justification declares us good, while sanctification makes us good. Justification removes the guilt and penalty of sin, while sanctification checks the growth and power of sin. In Romans 6 Paul lays out the program leading to that lifelong process of growing in grace and spiritual maturity, which is sanctification.
This plan involves four simple commands. We are to “know” (Romans 6:1-10). We are to “reckon” by faith. We are to act upon these facts regardless of any personal feelings (Romans 6:11-12). We are to “yield”. We are to stop yielding our body members as instruments of unrighteousness. We are to once for all yield our body members as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:16-23). We are to “obey” our new master and ignore the old one.
We were originally saved by being poured into the mold of salvation. We are now to obey the precepts of this mold and let if fashion and shape our new life.
Before a believer is saved he is “not able not to sin”. After salvation we are “able not to sin”. When we are with Christ we will be “not able to sin”.
God desires from us the fruits of justification which can only come through obedience (Romans 6:21-22).
In Romans 8:30 the Apostle Paul tells us, “Moreover, whom he did predistinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” The meaning of glorification is the ultimate and absolute physical, mental, and spiritual perfection of all believers (Romans 8:22-23, First Corinthians 15:41-44, Second Corinthians 4:14-18 and Jude 1:24-25) Glorification will begin at the Rapture and continue throughout all eternity (First Thessalonians 4:13-18, First Corinthians 15:52-53).
Glorification is the logical and necessary final side of the great salvation triangle It completes justification and sanctification. In the past, Christ the Prophet saved us from the penalty of sin through justification. In the present, Christ the Priest saves us from the power of sin through sanctification. In the future, Christ the King shall save us from the presence of sin through glorification.
What kind of body will the believer possess? It will be a body like Christ’s body (First John 3:2; Phillippians 3:21). It will be a body of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39). It will be a recognizable body (first Corinthians 13:12). It will be a body in which the Spirit predominates (First Corinthians 15:44-49).
In the Bible God has clearly expressed who He is; the One, eternal, never changing, Holy God. He has clearly stated what the unregenerated man needs to do to be reconciled to Him. That is man must repent and accept through faith the free gift of eternal life which God is offering. By accepting Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, man is declared free from the penalty of sin and worthy (through Christ) to enter God’s presence. There is no other means by which man can achieve righteousness. Having been freed from the penalty of sin through the blood of Christ, we now have peace with God. It was God’s mercy and love that led Him to provide the perfect sacrifice for our sin.
Falcon, the above was excellent. It was well reasoned and well put. God’s plan in salvation is clear in the scripures. I saw that you quoted Romans 8:30. This is often called the golden chain of salvation. Of course, what God has predestined/foreordained cannot be thwarted by the will of man, His creature. The preceding verse tells us this, “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.” I noticed that earlier you posted an excerpt from a book on systematic theology by Henry Thiesen. This was Thiesen’s statement,
Why is it that it is only in the realm of salvation that God’s foreknowledge and predetermination are not allowed to work according to God’s will, but must be subjected to man’s will? What I mean is this: What are Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4-6 but prophecy about God’s will for man in salvation? God does not name each individual separately as to be the objects of his predetermined purpose through His grace, but He makes the general statement that all those who come to Him will be saved. How does one come to God? See John chapter 6. To be consistent in your theology that God has looked down through the time span of His creation, perceived who would choose Him, then predestined them for calling, you must also say this about all prophecy: God looked down through time, saw all the events that would take place, knew what would occurr, then proclaimed that he had predetermined them to happen.
So the major question to ask, as always, is “Who is God?” We can dance around the mulberry bush endlessly with Mormons talking about grace and works and the means of salvation. It’s a pointless discussion because we’re not even talking about the same God. Mormons are basically Hindus who use Christian sounding vocabulary with different meanings attached to the words.
Mormons often ask people, “Have or will you read the BoM?” My answer is, “Tell me about the God of the BoM.” If the God of the BoM is one of many gods who through his own effort progressed to deity, I say, “Forget it!” Why would I want to read a book that doesn’t celebrate the God I know, love and serve?
The false hope of the Mormon male is that he will become one of these gods as he moves up through the organization by his own efforts and works. He will swear elegance to a false prophet, a false revelation, a false church and a living false prophet. He must also place his hope and trust in a false jesus. He must buy his way into the temple with 10% of his income to do worthless works which occupy his time, fill him with false hope and in the end lead to spiritual destruction.
There is One God who offers man the gift of eternal life through His plan of salvation which results in the forgiveness of sins and the assurance of salvation. First John 5:13 says, “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.”
Eternal life is being with God, not being a god.
The common objection to this is that God will not violate man’s free agency and “make them love Him.” But this rejection of God’s will in prophecy is only made in the realm of salvation. We would never say that God violated Abraham’s will when He called him. God declared in Genesis 12:2-3, “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
I’m sure that we agree that this was fulfilled in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This event, and all events necessary to bring it about, were foreordained before the foundation of the world, just like the names of all those God would save by His grace. God used men for His purpose to ensure these events would occurr. He predestined their actions, but did not violate their will in the process. Men acted according to their free agency, but God’s will was determined and accomplished. A great proof of this is Isaiah 10. God used the king of Assyria as the rod of His anger and used him to pour out His wrath on Israel, but he acted according to his will in his lust for power. God says that He will hold the king accountable for his actions even though God used him to fulfill His purpose. If we say that God cannot hold men accountable for their sins unless He gives them a chance to “choose” Him, then God can’t hold the king of Assyria accountable either since God allowed him to act according to his nature without giving him a choice first. We agree that apart from the Holy Spirit regenerating us we would not “choose” Christ, correct? We would be accountable for rejecting Him because that is our nature, just like it was the king of Assyria’s nature to want to conquer Israel. We are dead in trespasses and sins until God calls us. We cannot respond until he gives us new life, and who would receive new life was determined before time
As Christians we proclaim, “God is sovereign over all of His creation and in all things.” But much of today’s evangelical theology denies God’s sovereignty in salvation. It is only in this one area that man declares His sovereignty over God. “God can’t make me love Him. I must choose to accept or reject Him, He cannot choose me without my consent.” This is nothing more than man importing his pride and tradition into the clear statements in scripture that who God called, He also justified. Whom God justified, those He glorified. Are you going to tell me that it says, “Whom God called, He gave a choice to justify himself by choosing to believe in Jesus?” Justification is not based upon belief and faith. Your belief and faith are based upon your justification by God alone. Your faith in God is accomplished through the washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit just as Titus 3:3-7 says. Justification is a legal declaration made by God that Christ’s payment has been deposited into your account. This payment is made based upon God’s purposes, according to His will, to the praise of His glorious grace. Those to whom God has credited Christ’s righteousness are saved from the penalty of sin. Those to whom God has not applied Christ’s blood are not saved from the penalty of sin.
Just to clarify. My use of the word “your” was not directed at Falcon or anyone else. I was just speaking in general. And I don’t want anyone to take what I wrote as an attack. I just wanted to express my understanding of God’s sovereign work in salvation. I think this is the only position that can be consistently defended from scripture. If we hold to the traditions of men in salvation instead of making it a work of God alone, then we put ourselves in the same camp as the Mormons, Roman Catholics, and Jehovah’s witnesses.
liv4jc,
I don’t know if you and I are having a disagreement or not on the topic of justification. So if the Mormons want to take a break, you and I will discuss this. Here goes:
Justification is that act of God whereby He pronounces the believing sinner righteous, because of Christ’s perfect act of obedience. Man is treated as righteous and thus is free from all judgment or condemnation. We are considered holy only because we are “in Christ,” who is holy.
There is a basic corruption of human nature, our moral character has been polluted through sin. This aspect of the curse is nullified by regeneration, which reverses the direction and general tendencies of human nature. But our guilt or liability to punishment for having failed to fulfil God’s expectations remains. So it’s to that problem that justification relates.
So, where you lost me is in your pronouncement that “justification is not based on belief and faith; belief and faith are based upon justification by God alone.” Are you saying that we are justified and then we believe (as a result of being justified)?
We couldn’t believe, of course without God extending His grace to us. As Jesus said-you can’t come to Me unless the Father draws you.
Anyway, this discussion is a nice break from the typical back and forth with the Mormons who neither share our faith or understand it.
I think I’m out of posts for today so its back to guitar practice. Snowshoeing and weight training have been completed for the day. I kind of like being retired (although I guess I should add semi to that since I still do work-when the Lord blesses me with a consulting gig, which He often does. Keeps me out of the house and from annoying my wife).
Falcon, I have read enough of your posts to know that we are on the same page when it comes to man’s nature, justification, etc. After re-reading it, my justification by belief and faith statement was a little confusing. My main point was that the idea that God chose us because He “perceived” before the foundation of the world that we would first choose His offer of grace cannot be found in scripture. This makes God’s choosing of His elect based upon their sovereign decision, not His. This was the gist of the statement by Henry Thiesen. That statement was predicated by the statement that men are hopelessly dead, but God restores enough life to every man so they can make a choice for Him. Pelagius argued that all men are born free from sin, just like Adam, and make a free will choice to sin or not sin, and choose or not choose Christ. He was determined to be a heretic. Thiesen takes a semi-Pelagian position that we’re totally dead, but not so dead that we cannot choose Christ. You quoted John 6:44, and that position is scriptural. What is not scriptural is that God draws all men, but some choose to reject His drawing, or that God only draws those who He knew would respond to His drawing. Since the bible teaches that all who are given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him (John 6:37), then all who are drawn will come to Him. Either God does not draw all men, so only those who are drawn through election will come to Jesus, or God draws all men, but fails in his purpose by the will of some men.
This brings us to the order of salvation. All men are dead. The gospel call is a general call to all men. Some were elected for salvation from the foundation of the world, but they cannot respond to the gospel call without rebirth. In the same instant the elect hear the call through regeneration (rebirth caused by the Holy Spirit John 3:3 and Titus 3:5), they accept the call, and are converted and justified based upon Christ’s atonement and adopted as sons.
it’s been a great discussion guys. hope some LDS (not the ones who write, obviously) got through it all. 🙂
Grace and Peace!
liv4jc,
Well I’ve got one more left for the day. I’m enjoying the conversation.
Arminians have insisted that conversion is prior to regeneration. It is a prerequisite to new birth. One repents and believes, and therefore God saves and transforms. If this were not the case, a rather mechanical situation would prevail: God would do it all; there would really be no human element of response, and the appeals to the hearers of the gospel to be converted would be insincere.
Calvinists have insisted that if all persons are truly sinners, totally depraved and incapable of responding to God’s grace, no one can be converted unless first regenerated. Repentance and faith are not human capabilities.
The biblical evidence favors the position that conversion is prior to regeneration (Acts 16:31, Acts 2:38).
So the conclusion is that God regenerates those who repent and believe. This conclusion seems inconsistent with the doctrine of total inability. Do we have a way out of this?
Although no one is capable of responding to the general call of the gospel in the case of the elect God works intensively through a special calling so that they do respond in repentance and faith. As a result of this conversion, God regenerates them. The special calling is simply an intensive and effectual working by the Holy Spirit. It is not the complete transformation which constitutes regeneration, but it does render the conversion of the individual both possible and certain. Thus the logical order of the initial aspects of salvation is 1) special calling 2) conversion 3) regeneration.
Isn’t this fun? Thanks for the discussion.
(attribution; Christian Theology, Millard J. Erickson)
“Although no one is capable of responding to the general call of the gospel in the case of the elect God works intensively through a special calling so that they do respond in repentance and faith.”
And here I was thinking God was no respecter of persons. Looks like there is some sort of favouritism shown here! 🙂
“The Elect” is spiritual balderdash. Anyone with only in a primer education in theological-political history recognizes this. The Reformation and its socio-political response to indulgences with the “theory” of Justification has also degenerated to an academic debate about initial justification and final justification.
It is precisely these types of extra-scriptural contentions that expose an apostate state of the teachings of Jesus and the Will of Our Heavenly Father.
A sure sign is when someone sees the supposed “true” Gospel needing to be buttressed by academic theological writings. Doctrine comes from the Bible NOT from some book bought on Amazon written by someone with a PhD.
The Ev often claims that the “fullness” already exists in the text of the OT and NT….so why such a push to read extra-scripture?….balderdash!
Ralph,
Are you talking as a Mormon or can you shift your thoughts and think like a Christian from a Christian perspective? That is, that there is One eternal God and He is sovereign. It’s almost like Nicodemus not understanding what Jesus was telling him about being born again. The concept was foreign to Nicodemus. Also, in order to understand and think like a Christian, you will need to have a higher view of the Bible than Mormonism promotes.
What you are asking is, “Is God sovereign?” We can look to Romans 9:6-29 for the answer. The key verses here would be Romans 9:11, Romans 9:13-14, Romans 9:15-16, Romans 9:18-19.
Now for the purpose of this discussion, the context here is not election to salvation. God calls people into certain positions and other people into other types of functions in His church. But God, being God, can do whatever He wants.
Moses was allowed to view a portion of God’s glory not on the basis of his (Moses’) merit but on the basis of God’s mercy. When God does anything for any human, he does so on the basis of His mercy. Paul reminds the reader that the way God operates does not depend on the “will” (thelo) of man or the fact that man is “working” (trechontos) If God were to have compassion on and act in mercy onlyu to those people who earn these benefits, no one would receive anything. God, I believe, extends His love and mercy to all people but it is something within the nature of God that initiates that mercy, not something within the works of man.
God allowed Pharaoh to go the way he decided to go, but God actually hardened him more because the rejection of God’s mercy always results in increased recalcitrance. So ultimately the mercy of God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.
We see this example played out on a daily basis on this blog. Despite God’s mercy and reaching out to Mormons, they continue to reject Him, choosing instead a god of their own making. The more Mormons reject God, the more hardened they become.
In several verses in the Bible we find descriptions of apostates. An apostate is one who has received light but not life. He knows something of the Word of God, but nothing about the God of the Word. He refuses to give even mental assent to the great truths of the Bible. Some of the passages dealing with apostates are: Matthew 7:15-23, Second Corinthians 11:13-15, First Timothy 4:1, Second Peter 2:1-22, Jude 1:4, Jude 1:10-16.
The description and deeds of such people is that they are grievous and ravening wolves dressed in sheep’s clothing (Matthew 7:15, Acts 20:29). They will deceive many (Matthew 24:11). They are perverse empire-builders (Acts 20:30). A deception is perpetrated that these allow Satan to disguise himself as an angel of light, rather than a demon of darkness (Second Corinthians 11:13-15). The message is demon-controlled (First Timothy 4:1-3). The doctrine of the Son of God is perverted (Second Peter 2:1; Second John 1:7; Jude 1:4.) The doctrine of the Word of God is perverted (Second Peter 3:16; Revelation 22:18-19). The doctrine of the grace of God is perverted (Jude 1:4).
Jesus, in referring to these people says, “I never knew you.” He doesn’t say, “I once knew you,” or “I used to know you,” but rather, “I never knew you!”
Coming to God to receive salvation requires a right understand of who God is and what He has done for us through His Son Jesus Christ. A false god cannot provide salvation no matter how sincere someone is in believing it. Their sins remain unremitted and their pathway to eternal life blocked. A holy and righteous God demands perfection. None of us can achieve that through our works. Our works are dirty rags in His sight. Coming to the real Christ in faith secures for us God’s gift of eternal life. Not through what we have to offer God, but what He has offered us. God reaches out to give the beggar the ransom of a prince. Reaching back in faith secures our position before God. But we have to “know” Him so that He may “know” us.
Joseph Smith, the false Mormon prophet, had ample opportunity to respond to the revealed Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it is presented in the Bible. He chose, however, to reject God’s mercy and love and instead follow a deceitful and lying spirit. The more God called him, the more he hardened himself against God. Smith became totally corrupt introducing practices that led him to seduce other men’s wives and at least one adolescent child. In addition, he introduced rituals into his sect that came directly out of the occult practice of Free Masonry.
But Joseph Smith’s most egregious sin against God was replacing Him with a multiple system of gods and encouraging men to think that they could, through their own efforts, become gods. Within Smith’s religion, the rightful office of priesthood that belongs only to Jesus Christ, was appropriated to sinful men.
Smith indeed was one of these false prophets that Jesus and then the apostles warned people about. The deluding influence of the spirit of Mormonism, holds in bondage, people who have chosen to follow Smith’s lie to their ultimate spiritual destruction.
Smith taught his followers that the Bible could not be trusted, but that they should instead follow and believe the false revelations of the false Mormon prophets. Instructing his followers not to trust the Bible, Smith concocted his own scripture with the help of his magic seer stone and his own personal dubious “translation” of ancient texts.
As more Mormons discover the truth about Smith and his false teachings, the flow of those out of Mormonism increases. When God calls Mormons out of the trap of Mormonism, they can either respond to His call or harden themselves further against Him. We can only pray that the escape route out of Mormonism will be illuminated by the light of the Holy Spirit who beacons to men that they might see the light and come out of darkness.
“Therefore let your words be few. For a dream comes with much business, and a fool’s voice with many words.”
if ever there was a false Gospel it has been revealed in as many a poat here….and not by the hand of LDS
for example
Read the Bible, search the Gospel and find the verse where God says that our works are filthy rags, or where we are told that we are not good enough.
After the fall is when the Law emerged…the false Ev would have you “reason” that when God knew we could not fulfill a law He put a law in place simply to allow for the eventual Coming of Jesus. God would then let His children fumble in the dark until the Birth. Then this Birth was only for the “pre-destined” – all this miracle displayed for what? The poor misled and ego-driven Ev would paint God as a grifter and then parade Him around as “true”.
There is an obvious plan in place.
Quite simply, the Law, Jesus, and the Word is to fulfill the greatest gift…free agency.
Our Heavenly Father, after the fall, offered a “choice” because only through choice would our transformation be sincere. Otherwise all is unnecssary if the seats in heaven are already reserved.
Be wary of those with many “footnotes” to Faith, seek what the Bible says about “excessive writings”
My original reply to you was out of bounds so I will just provide a few examples of use of the word “eklektos” elect.
Matt 22:14; 24:24, 31; Mark 13:20, 22, 27; Luke 18:7; 23:35; 2 John 1:13; Rom 8:33; 16:13; Col 3:12; Tit 1:1; 1 Tim 5:21; 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Pet 1:1; 2:4, 6, 9 etc.
Can you where free agency is taught in the Bible much less where we should consider it the “greatest gift”?
The problem that the fully indoctrinated Mormon male has, is the idea that there is a God who is sovereign. They are gods, in embryo, themselves. In their minds, they have already displaced Jesus as the one and only High Priest, claiming a faux priesthood for themselves-with supposed power. I have learned that nothing will bring Mormon males out of the woodwork faster than the charge that they have no legitimate claim to the priesthood which is occupied by Christ. They are intoxicated by a false sense of power and authority.
The Mormon god isn’t all that much of a god. He is limited in a variety of ways. In fact, the Mormon god is just basically a man, like any other man, who worked his way up the multilevel marketing program supplied by the Mormon church. The Mormon god is just basically someone’s “up-line” whose built his organization and now will share with the Mormon male how he too can score his own planetary system and minions who will pray to him, adore him and look to him for his great knowledge and wisdom to also become gods.
As Christians we recognize the One, only, eternal, never changing God who has decreed that we are holy through faith in the perfect sacrifice of His Son Jesus.
Behold, the Satanic deceiver at work:
This is nothing more than the efforts of a demonic spirit attacking the intelligence and character of writings they cannot refute with scipture. Accuse the other of what you yourself are guilty of. The ignorant investigator will take the word of someone who speaks with such assurance and condescenscion and not search for the truth. Who would tell such a bold lie? This same trick was used by Satan in the garden when he asked Eve to question God’s character,
Inference: You must have misunderstood God, because that’s not true. When Eve correctly states the commandment, Satan moves to calling God an outright deceiver,
This deceiver throws all truth to the wind and makes this statement,
This statement is easily refuted, but our deceiver hopes his coveted LDS lurkers will take his word for it and not search for the truth. Follow the brethren…into Hell.
In Psalm 51:14-17 king David says,
David knows that it is God who cleanses from sin because of a repentant heart, not works of the Law. Read the Beatitudes, and Jesus’ sermon on the Mount. Jesus makes it abundantly clear that the righteousness of keeping the outward letter of the Law and commandments is not good enough. God weighs the intentions of the heart. What are we to do with the Smithian god who waits and responds to the actions of free agents? This destroys the omniscience of God. Does God not say in Isaiah 46:10,
Our deceiver wants us to deny the perfection of the foreknowledge and immutability of God in His declared will. This makes Him a disappointed and unhappy being who is often checkmated and defeated by His creatures
What would have happened to God’s true plan of salvation through the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ if man’s free agency had thwarted His plan? What if the Herod and Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel had all used their free agency to believe that Jesus was the Messiah instead of having Him crucified? What if only Pontius Pilate had listened to his wife and used his free agency to spirit Jesus away in the night to protect him and quell an uprising in Jerusalem? We will never know because Luke tells us this in Acts 4:23-27
This is God’s foreknowledge, predetermination, foreordination, and election blatantly in display for all to see. The nations raged, and the people plotted vain things! God’s counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure. As Gundeck and others have pointed out, foreknowledge, predestination, and election are clearly taught in the bible, most clearly in Romans 8:28-30 and Ephesians 1 and 2.
To deny that this doctrine is taught in the bible and say that it is the creation of extra-scriptural writings by those with PHDs that sell their books on Amazon is another blatantly false, easily refuted statement by a frustrated hater of God and His clearly revealed truth. The whole of scripture began with the first predetermined action in Genesis 3:15, which was realized in the resurrection of our precious Lord. Will we ever say that Satan would not be crushed by God? To the Smithian deceiver, Satan gained his victory over God in the garden.
As Christians we search the Bible and led by God’s Holy Spirit the precious truths of God are revealed to us. Mormons wander around lost in the entanglement of their own vain thoughts.
Smith wasn’t all that clever but as all false prophet wolves, he used persuasive power and an ignorant populace to promote his invented religion. The strategy and tactics never change with these wolves.
1. God isn’t really God. There is a different god.
2. The Bible can’t be trusted. Listen to me, I have special revelation.
3. Jesus isn’t really God as the Bible teaches, he’s a created being.
4. The price for sins wasn’t really paid on the Cross, a different place and means was employed.
5. Born of a Virgin? Well actually a god came down and had sexual relations with that girl.
6. The blood atonement? Well actually you have to work your way to righteousness and then you’ll become a god too.
7. Saved by grace. Not exactly. You have to do something. You don’t think God would give you salvation as a free gift do you?
8. God’s judgment. Ah, it seems that everyone will be saved regardless and besides, you’ll get a second chance after death.
“Oh and BTW”, the prophet says, “These sexual forays I’m involved in, that’s really a sacred rite of sealing necessary for one to become a god.”
It’s very interesting that the light went on to a whole bunch of people in Nauvoo and they recognized they were dealing with a false prophet. They dumped his most egregious teachings and sought to find their way back to God. They’re coming closer all the time.
lliv4jc
unfortunately your quotes from Isaiah and David are not God’s declaration of your unworthiness, and you and the accuser falcon have yet to foil God’s plan of salvation.
I see that now you both have decided to show your true nature and gnash your teeth at me. it is not too late for either of you…though you hope to demean people into your way, I tell you that you will reap no fruit from the barren soil beneath your feet.
But Our Heavenly Father has endowed you with several gifts..free agency and discernment. Predestination is a political sham and serves only the fascist…..Yes, it is all by the hand of God but His love is so great that free agency is the ultimate expression of that love. You can still choose the love of Jesus over the ire of ol’ scratch.
free yourself from the confines of that box you try to stuff the universe into and realize that God does not look at you as “worthkess dirty rags” for He loves you so much that He sent His only Begotten for you…and Jesus was ever so committed to this plan that He chose to come.
falcon
this unfortunate list of 8 you posted above is more an indictment on the true nature of your heart. Fortunately people can find out for themselves and see through the extravegant mischaracterizations you list, like God came down and had sex….nothing in that statement is true nor taught by the LDS church.
You too have a choice…it is up to you whether to continue baiting traps in order to snare righteousness away from those who seek true Faith and wish to draw closer to the True God, Our Heavenly Father.
People who read this board are sampling the fruit of our respective devotions and many are more than obvious with their bitterness.
Won’t you please add a teaspoon of sweet true Gospel to your cup?
those who might be confused about this fairy tale of pre-destiny might want to review the scriptures about the “Book of Life” with particular attention to God’s writing and erasing names from its pages.
Ask yourself why God would allow such a Book to exists and more importantly why are names able to added or removed?
personally I try to refrain from letting political movements interfere with my reading of the scriptures.
The first thing a false prophet has to do is get people to believe there is something wrong with the Bible; that the Bible can’t really be trusted as an accurate revelation of God’s Word. So what the people then must do is believe the false prophet’s “revelations” as being directly from God. Once the wolf can get people to buy that deception, he’s in business.
So Smith like all false prophets was able to set-up a situation where by God was no longer sovereign. Smith’s words became sovereign because he convinced people he was speaking for God. Followers of Smith now don’t take the Bible for the literal revealed Word of God because the Bible doesn’t support Mormonism.
So when it comes to salvation, Mormons are traveling down a different track. They deny God’s role in salvation, making man the sovereign entity for the eventual false hope of becoming a god. God continues to reach out to Mormons but they won’t have Him because they will have to surrender to His will and not their own. Mormon males particularly resist God because they would have to give-up the notion that they have priesthood authority and power and a future as a deity.
I sense that there are Mormons who read this and get it. God has spoken to them and they are on their way out of the Mormon church. As they accept the Bible as God’s revealed Word, they find that the revelation in the Bible is incompatible with what the wolf Smith and his wolf successors taught.
Followers of Smith now dont take the Bible for the literal revealed Word of God because the Bible doesnt support Mormonism
as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I have not ever met a “follower” of Joseph Smith. Just like I have never met a follower Martin Luther or Calvin or Moses..etc..
So perhaps these mystery followers of smith do not support the Bible but I do know that members of the CoJCoLDS do support and believe in a correctly translated Bible, and have canonized the KJV.
and unlike many who simply rely on a college degree to discern spiritual truth we appeal to higher standard of discernment.
The depths some will sink to mislead away from the righteousness of God’s desire. it is truly enlightening to look back at the history of posts here and see who indeed “accuses” more than anything else.
MikeR,
Sorry, I missed your question. You asked “Ralph, where in the Bible did Jesus say He would send us new scripture and prophets?”
I will begin by answering with a question – where does He say He wont? In the NT it talks about Jesus establishing apostles and prophets, etc for the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry, etc (Ephesians 4:11-14; CR Corrinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 3:5). So there were at least prophets after Jesus during NT times, and refernces to more prophets after Biblical times. And if scripture is described as being the writings of holy men under the influence of The Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 3:16), then if there are holy men now who have The Spirit, does this not comply with the description? But where in the Bible does it say that the heavens have closed and no more scripture will be given?
Yes I know, going on the definition above you can claim scripture is still given in your church. That is your prerogative, as is mine to claim the same.
Sub, you are correct in one thing. God does love the world, and he showed that love by sending His son into the world to live a perfect life so that he could die to save sinners like you and I. But John 3:16 has a limiting factor built into it. Those who believe have everlasting life. Those who don’t believe don’t have everlasting life, in fact they are condemned already (John 3:18). Please tell us from the well of your scriptural knowledge all of the verses that tell us that names are added and erased from the Lamb’s Book of Life. Tell us all of the verses that proclaim the greatest gift: free agency, and then compile a list of verses that proclaim man’s worthiness apart from God’s work in them. If you can’t find them let me know. I can compile a list that teaches the exact opposite of what you are stating. I stand by the Isaiah verses and the Psalm 51 verses as being accurate. But I know, anything that I say will only be according to my interpretation.
Let me anticipate your response: I’m confused, relying upon the teachings of man, and nobody can know the truth by arguing theology or biblical exegesis.
gundeck
my apologies, i missed your earlier post about free-agency.
though many elitists may translate “eklektos” as chosen and ergo try to imply that this somehow means “pre-destiny” also neglect that this word also means “the best of”…either way there is no real implication that God has singled particular people for salvation and others for not. The only “chosen one” in the scriptures is Jesus.
Now for your requested scriptures on “free agency”
Deuteronomy 30:19
Deuteronomy 11:26
Joshua 24:15
Isaiah 7:15
Isaiah 56:4
Proverbs 1:29
Proverbs 3:31
Proverbs 8:10
1 Peter 4:3
not to mention the whole presence of evil and temptation…
and of course the obvious Book of Life being able to have additions and subtractions…but surely you have a great rebuttal for that one…since no one else is able to touch it.
subgenius,
Might I suggest that you do some reading on the connection between Suzerain–Vassal treaties and the covenant made in Exodus and Deuteronomy. Deut 11:26; 30:19 and Josh 24:15 are quite typical of the ratification of a 2nd millenium BC treaty, and simply there is never a parity between God and Israel implied in any of these texts. Ratification is strictly ceremonial. To assume a democratic type of “choice” in ratification of the covenant is quite anachronistic.
You may also want to check out Deut 7:6-11 before making a claim that God does not choose. This is also typical of this sort of treaty between a Suzerain (King)and vassal (His people).
I am also afraid that you have made a terrible mistake concerning the book of life.
Just to answer a question given to Subgenious, here are 2 verses that show names are removed from the Book of Life –
Revelations 3:5 “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”
If a person that overcomes does not have his name blotted out of the book of life, then logically someone who does not overcome will have their name blotted out.
Revelations 22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”
If anyone removes any part of the prophecies in Revelations then their part shall be removed out of the book of life.
Ralph,
Thank you for making my point “I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” Check Revelation 22:19 again. “Tree of life” not book.
God’s in charge! That’s the bottom line. Unfortunately Mormon men are sold a bill of goods of primacy that leads to arrogance, pride and a condescending attitude. It’s to be expected. The Mormon system encourages it. When someone thinks they hold the priesthood and along with it power and authority and then they think they’re going to become a god, the results will be predictable.
So it’s no wonder then that these folks think that they can perform works to achieve high levels of personal deity. They are locked in a false religious system with false promises. Go-getters are rewarded in this type of religious program. But the strivers have to always be kept on the edge, never knowing for sure if they have done enough to merit the big prize, being a god. But in the end, it’s the pride that comes from thinking that they did it. They accomplished it. They made the big score and got their name on the front page of the Daily Celestial Kingdom newspaper.
God is sovereign. His plan of salvation is revealed in His Word the Bible. Christ blood secures for the believer the reward that God has predetermined which is eternity spent with Him basking in His glory. Mormons aren’t interested in any glory expect their own which they suppose they will achieve by their own merit. Lucifer has succeeded in selling these Mormons the plan that led to his destruction and will lead to theirs’ unless they repent, confess their sin of pride, and receive God’s gift that He offers through faith.