Ex-LDS Steve Kay, Saved by Jesus Christ

You can download the video here.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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101 Responses to Ex-LDS Steve Kay, Saved by Jesus Christ

  1. iamse7en says:

    Ex-confused Ryan, Saved by Jesus Christ:


  2. What is your point iamse7en?

    This is why I tend to not like testimonies, at least for apologetic/polemical value. Someone else can just give an opposite testimony. However, can you agree with me that Steve has a testimony and it is just as valuable as those who testify to the Book of Mormon?

  3. iamse7en says:

    I’m making the point you are by posting the opposite of what was made a featured post on this blog. I agree that concerning apologetics, there are more valuable tactics than testimony. On my mission, and even today, I would always quote the Bible to defend LDS doctrine.

    I will agree that Steve’s testimony is as sincere as Ryan’s. I would only disagree with your choosing of the word valuable. If the Book of Mormon is true, then I’d say Ryan’s testimony is more valuable. If the Book of Mormon isn’t true, then I’d say Steve’s is more valuable. A testimony based on truth is definitely more “valuable” than one based on falsehood, especially come judgement time.

  4. setfree says:

    “If the Book of Mormon is true, then I’d say Ryan’s testimony is more valuable. If the Book of Mormon isn’t true, then I’d say Steve’s is more valuable. A testimony based on truth is definitely more “valuable” than one based on falsehood, especially come judgement time.”

    I certainly agree with you there, iamse7en

  5. I see quite a contrast between Ryan’s LDS testimony and Steve’s Christian testimony. iamse7en titles Ryan’s testimony “Saved by Jesus Christ,” yet Christ is not mentioned much in Ryan’s story. Ryan’s testimony is that he was converted to Mormonism and the LDS Church by the Book of Mormon. He said, “I knew right there that I would follow the Church.”

    Contrast that with Steve’s testimony where he talks about God’s mercy, forgiveness, the power of salvation, how important it is to love Jesus (“more than anything”) and the blessings found in a personal relationship with Christ. He quotes the words of Jesus multiple times, talks about the joy of giving your all for Christ, and explains, “Jesus is all that matters.”

    There’s also an interesting contrast at the end of the testimonies. Ryan says “The Book of Mormon literally changed my life.” Steve says, “That freedom, that grace, and that gift of mercy [that Jesus gives me] has completely changed my life.”

    Both testimonies are heartfelt, but for me, just give me Jesus.

  6. Ralph says:

    I am at work and do not have time to listen to either testimonies protrayed here but I do have a valid comment on what Sharon has said.

    People tend to do things the way they are taught and what they see others do/say. I have noticed that many in the Born Again, Evangelical, Pentacostal, etc movements talk about Jesus and mention Him a lot. (NOTE I am not saying there is anything wrong with this, just making an observation). They do this, from what I have noticed, because of their ‘upbringing’ in their community. They are encouraged to talk about Jesus, mention Him whenever possible. In their religious infancy they see others bare their testimonies only about Jesus. So this is one of the reasons they do it this way.

    On the other hand, the LDS do mention Jesus in their testimonies, but they tend to focus on other things like JS, BoM, etc. In one respect this dilutes the word:word use ratio of the mention of Jesus to others, but it also appears that we focus on other things apart from Jesus. Those in their infancy in the LDS church see the ‘veterans’ get up and give a ‘testimony’ (more like a travelogue) and mimic this. In all of the teaching manuals I have read and taught from, they say this is wrong. A testimony should really only mention Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the atonement, the LDS church is true, scriptures are true, JS was true prophet and then close. But the new converts usually see the testimony meetings before having these lessons, thus the cycle repeats.

    I have read a talk/article in the Ensign about how one of the GAs was visiting a ward and all through the meeting the only time he heard Jesus mentioned was in the prayers and the hymns. He stood up as the final speaker and said that this is not on. We are His church, we should focus on Him. 2 Nephi 25:26 tells us what we should be doing. Anyway I can’t find this talk to reference it, but I do try to live like this and when I teach I focus it on Jesus and what He has done for us.

  7. rvales says:

    Ralph said:
    “A testimony should really only mention Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the atonement, the LDS church is true, scriptures are true, JS was true prophet and then close. But the new converts usually see the testimony meetings before having these lessons, thus the cycle repeats.”

    Isn’t it interesting that the new converts have to be ‘taught’ how to give a testimony? And Ralph you also help prove one of the Evs arguements…LDS give glory to the BoM and JS where glory should only be given to God. The BoM doesn’t save people God saves people. Isn’t this the idolatry that we are accused of when we reference the cross? Ralph, what has Jesus done for you? (please don’t misread tone I’m not trying to be hateful) It seems to the Evs that ‘after all you can do’ and declarations/songs/praises to the truthfulness of JS and the BoM seem to depreciate Jesus’ work on the cross. After all it seems all he did for the LDS was make it possible for you to prove yourself worthy of and the receipient of celestial glory.

  8. setfree says:

    It’s true… when I was little, I was taught (in church) to say this: “I know this church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I know our prophet today is a prophet of god…” and then give filler (I love my mom and dad, etc).
    I was never once taught to talk about Jesus.
    And Sharon, I hadn’t watched the Mormon testimony yet either. I could have told you, however, that that would be the comparison.
    What Ralph says… it’d be nice if that’s all there was to it. But Mormonism does not teach Jesus worship… it very much teaches Mormon church worship…

  9. Ralph says:


    Acknowledging that JS was a true prophet of God is not putting any glory onto him – it’s just like acknowledging that Moses, or Elijah, etc were true prophets of God. The same applies to the BoM, it’s exactly like one of the Evs on here saying the Bible is true. It is not giving any glory to the object, just an acknowledgement that it is true. BTW, I said scriptures not just the BoM – this includes the Bible, D&C and PoGP. A testimony is declaring what one knows – it does not give glory to anything unless one wants to put it in there.


    I disagree with you – the LDS church does teach Jesus worship, just not the way you want it to be. However, as I mentioned, the people in the LDS church can get side-tracked, but they are only human and make mistakes.

    I guess one of the reasons is because of the past – when they were originally trying to stand up for the truth and show the differences between the LDS religion and others. To do this one would focus more on the differences (ie living prophet, more scripture, temples, etc) than the similarities (ie Jesus is the Christ, He is God’s Son, He performed the atonement for our salvation, etc yes there are similarities). But those are my thoughts – they may not be correct.

    To me it’s a shame really to see that people don’t listen to their lessons and just follow the age old norm.

  10. setfree says:

    this has to be my favorite Mormon testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0xvsp4tBDc&feature=player_embedded

    what nice, swelling music during the whole LDS testimony given above (in comments). so like… like… all the rest of the sugar-coated stuff you see in the visitors centers and stuff. all very emotionally stimulated by music and pictures and syrupy sweet stuff 🙂

  11. setfree says:

    Ralph, I didn’t have any desire for any kind of Jesus worship, when I was Mormon. I am not on some kind of quest to get the LDS to show Jesus-worship in a different way. I am simply telling what I know of Mormonism, verses what I have found in Christian churches. There is no comparison between the “I’m saved by His Grace” love for Jesus, and the “I’m working my way to heaven” kind

  12. falcon says:

    In Acts chapter nine starting with verse three, the account is given of the Apostle Paul’s conversion. There was a bright light, he was knocked to the ground and Jesus spoke to him. Paul was temporarily blinded but recovered his sight when a disciple of the Lord laid hands on him. In the Book of Galatians, Paul writes that he was surprised that these folks had “….so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel.”
    Paul straightens the Galatians out regarding the true revelation of Jesus Christ.
    In verses eleven and twelve Paul tells the Galatians that “…I would have you know, brethren , that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
    In the second chapter first verse Paul reports that he went up to Jerusalem after a fourteen year interval. The reason? “…it was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.”
    Two things; first of all Paul’s revelation was of Jesus Christ. Second, Paul submitted the gospel he preached to those in authority to confirm that he was indeed on track.
    Christians receive a revelation of Jesus Christ, the same Jesus and the same gospel Paul preached. Mormons receive a “testimony” of Joseph Smith, the BoM, the LDS church and the current “prophet” and as an after thought, Jesus.
    Having received the secret handshakes and a couple of secret pass words, Mormons feel prepared to meet Joseph Smith after death hoping he punches their ticket to get into Mormon heaven. To paraphrase the apostle Paul, “You foolish Mormons, I told you that even if an angel from heaven should preach to you a different gospel, contrary to “the” gospel, he is accursed.
    Mormons put their faith in a false gospel of Joseph Smith.

  13. WJ says:

    setfree: “It’s true… when I was little, I was taught (in church) to say this: “I know this church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I know our prophet today is a prophet of god…” and then give filler (I love my mom and dad, etc).”

    Oh, well that was your problem. Every Mormon knows that the “filler” about loving your mom and dad goes BEFORE the reference to Joseph Smith, not AFTER. Your rhythm was off, its no wonder you left the faith.

  14. falcon says:

    When I came to God, I did so because I had a revelation of Jesus Christ. He is the Son of God. He died for my sins. I did not have a revelation of the apostle Paul. I do not testify to Paul or Peter or John.
    In Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians the first chapter, verses eleven through sixteen He address the topic of hero worship. He admonishes the Corinthians for their singling out of certain men and says “……now each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
    Part of the problem with the false gospel of Joseph Smith is that Smith is elevated to a role of having to give the thumbs-up to a Mormon if they’re going on to the big show after they die.
    Mormons are stuck with this guy who’s is so easy to debunk that it’s truly amazing to Christians that anyone could be so foolish as to follow him. The end of this is spiritual destruction. But if someone desires to believe something and if they have swooned over a guy like Smith, their ability to get passed it and on to solid footing is pretty tough.
    I’m always impressed with the exMormons who post here because they have heard the voice of God and responded to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and now have a testimony of Jesus Christ.

  15. rvales says:

    I can’t think of the exact quote, and maybe I’m dreaming it (hopefully my more equipped siblings in Christ can help me out here…) but didn’t Brigham Young say that Joseph Smith would have something to say in who got into the CK and who didn’t?

    And Ralph I have to disagree. I don’t think I give near as much reverence to the prophets of old as you guys give JS and the gang. I mean I enjoy reading the inspired writings of the prophets as much as the next person but when I give my testimony it’s not Isaiah who bridged the gap between me and God. It wasn’t the prophets who protected and called me back to God when I was wayward. When I talk about the 10 years I spent wandering around as a picture perfect rebellious prodigal child I make only one confession..that God in his infinite grace and mercy paid for my sins thru His death and resurection and ushered me into relationship with him, saving me when I was eyeball deep in sin.

  16. grindael says:

    This thing about ‘testifying’ about Joseph Smith. Jesus once called John the Baptist (I believe) the greatest prophet to have ever lived… now, did the early Church worship him like the Mormons worship Joseph Smith? (remember worship means to revere someone – and they do that in church by singing hymns about him) Did they go around saying, thank God for the forerunner of Jesus, that He baptized him, that he preached of Him, etc. Did the early Apostles make mention of John in an excessive way the way that the Mormons do of Smith? Did they sing Hymns to John the Baptist? It is all this Smith is a god to us, and Brigham is a god to us that cropped up in the early days of the Church. I have literally seen this many many times. They were fixated on Smith, worshipped him, and even Heber C. Kimball, on his death-bed said to one of Smith’s plural wives that he had married, I treated you ok, didn’t I, you think when I meet Joseph on the other side he will be ok with how I treated you? -Words to that effect. Where do you think blood atonement came from? From wanting revenge for smith. Young’s last words were Joseph, Joseph, Joseph…I have to agree with setfree and sharon, it takes away from Jesus. All the ‘testimony’ stuff is just to promote smith and his book of mormon, which has never been and never will be needed for anyone to come to Christ. Just read the four gospels, that is all you need.

  17. grindael says:


    “…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

  18. mobaby says:

    Ralph – There are some other types of Christians that really talk about Jesus a lot. I would add to your list Bible-believing Presbyterians & Reformed, Lutherans, and Baptists.

    I hang around with a lot of Prebyterian/Reformed folks and a few Baptists as well. I don’t name any Lutherans as friends, but I listen online to them a lot and have been to an apologetics conference put on by a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregation and all of these Christians talk about Jesus a lot – and His great gift of grace and redemption through His death on the cross. I think iamse7en provided a great opportunity to compare and contrast by posting the link to the Mormon testimonial – Sharon’s insight on the differences is real. I don’t really hear a salvation message in the video testifying to the Book of Mormon/LDS religion; but I do in Steve Kay’s video. Christianity is about Jesus. It’s about a God who loved us enough to live for us, He loved us with all His heart. A God who cared enough to die on the cross for us – that’s how much He loved us. He gave everything for us. He has done enough, rest in Him.

  19. falcon says:

    In Mormonism it’s all about Joseph Smith, the BoM, the Mormon church and the current prophet. It’s the cult of Smith worship. Mormons can’t deny this. That’s what the Mormon testimony is all about.
    When I testify to my faith in Jesus, it’s about my faith in Jesus. It’s not about Billy Graham, the Bible, and certainly not about some Christian denomination. In fact a Christian who’d mention faith in anything but Christ would be seen as being weird and in need of correction.
    I don’t hear the Lutherans singing songs to Martin Luther or the Methodists to John Wesley. Anyone ever hear of a hymn to the apostle Paul?
    I grew-up Catholic and the whole veneration of the saints and Mary is a real put-off to me. The doctrine of Mary being coredemtrist with Christ makes me shudder. I remember singing “On this day oh beautiful mother; on this day we give you our love. Near thee Madonna closely we hover…..” Man, how did I remember that? That’s what happens when you go to mass everyday (except Saturday).
    I can give all sorts of references to all of the spiritual manifestations attached to Mary. Does that make the Catholic doctrine true?
    The Catholic church doesn’t do this, but there is someone who sells a statue of Saint Joseph to people wanting to sell their homes. What you do is buy this “kit” with the statue and a prayer. The person is suppose to bury the statue in the front yard and repeat this prayer everyday. Your house will then sell. People testify to this as working and being true. So I guess it must be true and would be part of an effective testimony.

  20. setfree says:

    WJ, THAT was funny 😀

    I’m not sure I’ve seen you out here before. Welcome!

  21. Olsen Jim says:

    It is interesting that ancient Israel missed the spirit of the Law of Moses- completely losing sight of the whole point. The modern Evangelical whose religion is hyper-believism makes a similar mistake, only to the opposite extreme. Apostate Israel saw no role for grace through the atonement, apostate modern EVs see next to no role for obedience to law and discipleship.

    They like to think that when Jesus said “it is finished” on the cross, that meant nothing ever would need to be done after that. The next step in that thought process is that all activity stops- all decisions, behavior, choices- heck, why shouldn’t it apply to everything in the universe. No electrons moving around nuclei, etc. etc. You see how a thing can be taken to ridiculous extremes.

    Funny how LDS are criticized for placing too much credit with the BOM, yet it is the EVs who literally worship the Bible. Should we compare how much credit is given to the Bible by EVs to the credit given to the BOM by LDS? And EVs hold Paul in at least as high esteem as LDS hold Joseph Smith.

  22. Free says:

    Hi OJ – Is there a possibility that your lens has become a little distorted … at least toward those who are followers of Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures, and are not members of your church?

    Is there a possibility that you lump all non-members of your church and followers of Jesus Christ as “hyper believers”? I understand how this can make you and your religion seem superior. Maybe…maybe not. Just asking. Such bigotry is not uncommon. I used to be a member of your church, and I have witnessed the smugness of lds leaders and members toward other faiths.

    The earnest followers of Jesus Christ that I know of, believe the following scripture:

    “For by GRACE you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God; not as result of WORKS, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS, which God PREPARED BEFOREHAND so that we would WALK IN THEM.” (Ephesians 2:8-10}

    Also: “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” –James 2:18

    James is reminding us that the kind of “faith” which is required for salvation will produce actions. Painfully missing from the Holy Scriptures in the Bible is all the “hoop jumping” the lds religion requires.

    You also wrote “Funny how LDS are criticized for placing too much credit with the BOM…”. What I have seen, experienced and witnessed is that your church doesn’t even resemble what is in the BOM. Your church more closely resembles your doctrine and covenants.

    Question: Even though I disagree with your religion, would you consider me your brother?

    Much love to all in the name of Jesus Christ. For He and only He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

  23. grindael says:

    Olsen Jim

    That is a pretty funny image, ‘worshipping’ the Bible. Typical Mormon response of taking something to a ridiculous extreme… Like the cross, etc.. But I don’t see the Saviour saying take up your BOM and follow me… In fact wasn’t it smith that had the Bible fetish? He copied enough of it into the BOM didn’t he??

    Your early church leaders did quite the opposite, they could not leave well enough alone & in their ‘school of the prophets’ & other meetings had to expound on everything to make themselves look like prophets. There are whole discourses by Young & the Utah bunch about Kolob, and Adam & Eve being transplanted from other planets as ressurected beings, then Adam is God, and of course Jesus is the son of Adam who had sex with Mary. Brigham Young even told a story about there being giant caves under the Hill Cumorah with rooms full of plates, etc. But don’t try to find them without the seer stone that Young used to carry around with his diving rod he used to locate the place to build the Salt Lake Temple…

    Paul had visions, but kept it at that. Smith and the Kirtland bunch went on and on, always trying to ‘one up’ the prophets in the Bible. EV’s don’t worship the Bible, we give it the respect it is due, because it testifies of Jesus, unlike the BOM which is a shadow copy used to lure unsuspecting marks into the shadow religion of Mormonism. Paul leads us to Jesus. SMith leads us to which god?? I can’t tell there are SO MANY of them…

  24. falcon says:

    What religion are you talking about? I can tell that you pretty much repeat what you’ve been told by the Morg. A little independent study could straighten you out but then you’d have to leave Mormonism.
    What more would you like to add to Jesus’ finished work on the cross? There’s more? Like what? It’s Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross plus what(?); going to the Mormon temple, dressing-up like a guy who works in a bakery and repeating Masonic secret passwords and doing secret handshakes. How arrogant are you Mormons?
    Christians worship the Bible? I was always under the impression that we worship the God revealed in the Bible. Does it make you feel that Mormonism is the real deal because you create a Christianity that doesn’t exist. The Christianity you present is as fabricated as the Mormonism Smith created.
    OK, pay attention.
    *”Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:24-26)
    *”….if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” (Galatians 2:21)
    *”Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, ‘The righteous man shall live by faith.'(Galatians 3:11)
    How many times do we have to go over this with Mormons before they get it? “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” (Galatians 5:1)
    Man this gets tedious. I’ve come to the conclusion that Mormons don’t want to understand this because it blows the whole premise of Mormonism out of the water.
    Salvation is a gift that God offers us through faith in Christ and the acceptance of his perfect sacrifice for our sins. Having repented and turned to God, we then walk in a manner that is consistent with our profession of faith. We’re not saved “by” good works, but “for” good works.

  25. grindael says:


    Here is Thomas Monson, advocating just that thing: don’t investigate, but believe what we teach you, & don’t rock the boat… what about smith’s quote ‘intelligence gained in this life will rise with us in the resurrection…” I guess it is more important NOT to be a scientist, NOT to try and understand the world around us, NOT to question why there is no scientific evidence to support the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham or anything smith ‘translated’ or had a hand in bringing forth…

    “Should doubt knock at your doorway, just say to those skeptical, disturbing, rebellious thoughts: ‘I propose to stay with my faith, with the faith of my people. I know that happiness and contentment are there, and I forbid you, agnostic, doubting thoughts, to destroy the house of my faith. I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and I do not attempt to do so, but I accept God’s word. I wasn’t with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it’.” – Monson, quoted in the Ensign Magazine, Feb. 2001

  26. falcon says:

    Yes indeed it is a mystery why anyone would believe Smith’s religion despite all of the evidence that he and it are a total farce and fabrication. We can never underestimate the desire of someone wanting to believe something. As I’ve mentioned several times, the more outrageous the claim, the more true believers cling to it. It’s a badge of great faith to continue on despite all the information to the contrary.
    For exMormons, the tumblers all fell into place and they “got it”. As sure as they were that it was all true they now know just the opposite. Getting past the emotional hook is very difficult. Cults flip a person’s natural thinking and reasoning power.
    I often think of what jackg has written; that it took him nine/ten years to get the Mormonism wrung-out of his brain. Even well into his recovery he had a set-back where he wanted it all to be true, but knew it wasn’t. It can take a long time for people to recover from such strong indoctrination especially if they are born into the sect.
    But God is faithful and will keep those safe that are His.

  27. Olsen Jim says:


    Don’t recall you posting. Nice to meet you.

    You ask me “Is there a possibility that you lump all non-members of your church and followers of Jesus Christ as “hyper believers”?

    If you read my statement again, you see I referred to “The modern Evangelical whose religion is hyper-believism.” I hold your average Christian in pretty high esteem actually. But as usual, I refer in my comments to the self-righteous, hyper-judgmental evangelicals who spend their time criticizing the Church of Jesus Christ. I find it ironic that they subscribe to a gospel of hyper-believism- not needing obedience or work, yet they are so critical of others.

    Your name here (Free) as well as the “hoop jumping” you claim is found in the LDS church leads me to believe that you left the church, like some others, primarily to escape accountability. I am sorry you left the church, no matter what the reason.

    And yes- I do consider you a brother.

    Grindael- Too many hyper-believers worship the Bible. They have so consistently and fully equated the Bible in so many ways with God Himself, they have become one and the same in their view. In doing so, they actually reject the God who gave the scripture in preference for their legalistic insistence on worshipping the creation (the bible).

    And another thing Grindael- do you not get tired of hashing out your same talking points about polygamy, God having sex with Mary, etc. etc. in every thread?

    Please come up with an original thought somebody.

  28. Mike R says:


    Did Steve Kay mention that he worships creation
    (the Bible) ? If not, then why would you bring
    that up? What does that have to do with Him?

    Also, I for one do not get tired of the work
    Grindael does here. It certainly sheds light
    on the claims of Mormon leaders to be reliable
    teachers. Holding leaders accountable for what
    they teach, testing them, is nothing new [Rev.2:2
    ; Acts 17:11]. Mormon leaders have said that you
    won’t be misled if you follow them. I think
    Grindael has exposed that lofty claim to be

  29. falcon says:

    I don’t know what planet you’re living on, but I’ve yet to meet anyone in the ev. community or those related Christian groups that worships the Bible. I think this is just one more Mormon red herring that allows (Mormons) some cover in clinging to Smith’s invented religion. That’s the whole point of Smith needing a “restoration”. He had to declare Christianity wrong. If he didn’t do this, why would anyone need his “revelation”. They wouldn’t! So you repeat what you’ve been taught in a robotic fashion and it satisfies you as it does most LDS.
    I’ve mentioned a few times on this blog, Lyndon Lamborn’s testimony regarding his journey out of Mormonism. He was a life long Mormon with ancestors that went all the way back to the handcart days. A nonMormon mentioned to him Jon Krakauer’s book, “Under the Banner of Heaven” and simply said, “There’s some interesting things about your religion in that book.” Lyndon had enjoyed Krakhauer’s other book “Into Thin Air” and decided to read “Banner”. Well, the rest is history because Lyndon wasn’t willing to surrender his integrity to cling to a religion that was not only false but has done it’s best to hide the truth from its members.

    I can always tell when a Christian poster is getting under the skin of the Mormons and is being effective. You keep doing what you’re doing. They can’t stand-up to the volume of factual information you present here. It buries their surface level Mormon mottos that they depend on to sustain their belief in the (Mormon) false gospel.

  30. Janet says:

    “…no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

    I must agree with the above, and also our Great Beloved Leader Hinckley who stated almost the same.

    “Our entire case as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints rests on the validity of this glorious First Vision. … Nothing on which we base our doctrine, nothing we teach, nothing we live by is of greater importance than this initial declaration. I submit that if Joseph Smith talked with God the Father and His Beloved Son, then all else of which he spoke is true. This is the hinge on which turns the gate that leads to the path of salvation and eternal life.” -Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign Mag., Nov. 1998, pp.70-71

    It is by the Grace of God that all are saved, it is the teaching of JS and the true restoration of all ordinances that allow one to enter into God Kingdom. One can not escape Faith, Baptism, Repentance and the Gift of the HG.

  31. falcon says:

    Well Janet,
    I must at least applaud your honesty even though the teachings of your prophets is wrong. You have made a choice to follow after the “vision/revelation” of Joseph Smith which bears absolutely no resemblance to traditional, orthodox Christianity. You have put your spiritual destiny at the hands of a man (Smith) who was a false prophet. I am always amazed at the excuses and alibis believers in Smith must buy-into in order to accept his claims. Not only does someone embrace a belief that after the first century the Church went into apostasy, but also that the reason Mormonism isn’t in the Bible is because a great conspiracy was hatched to keep it out. Then a follower of Smith has to ignore Smith’s personal history and character which reveals he was nothing more than a clever con man. And to top it off, the BoM, Smith’s revelation, has been conclusively proven to be totally fraudulent and all I can conclude is that someone really has to desire to belief the Smith fantasy to ignore all of the evidence.
    Christianity is all about Jesus. Mormonism is all about Joseph. You’ve made your choice and it is Joseph. I’ve made mine and it’s Jesus.

  32. falcon says:

    So what Mormons have to do is forsake the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God proclaimed by the apostles, and embrace the false god proclaimed by a false prophet, Joseph Smith. This is not good and will end in spiritual destruction for Mormons. The fabric of Mormonism is full of snags, holes and stains.
    Mormons have a testimony of a false prophet (Smith), a false book (BoM), a false church (LDS), a living false prophet (Thomas Monson) and a false Jesus (who bears no resemblance to the Jesus of the NT).
    Steve Kay testifies in the video that the Bible made no sense to him until he realized that the LDS church and Joseph Smith were both false. He points to the Book of Romans as an example of scripture he couldn’t understand within the context of Mormonism. That’s because Mormonism is a false gospel. Once the cloak of deceit was lifted from him, the Holy Spirit illuminated his spirit and mind and the true Gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed (to him).
    When a person’s understanding is clouded by a false belief system, it is not possible to think with clarity. If someone continues to deny the Gospel of Jesus Christ and substitute a false god and a false belief system, they become progressively more hardened against God.
    The exMormons who post here have experienced both sides of the spiritual war that is being waged. When they rejected the false prophet Smith, his false gospel and false god he promoted, they were released into the light and a new relationship with God through His Son Jesus Christ.

  33. grindael says:


    For a factual video on the First Vision, Go Here:

    Some posters here would deceive you with out of context quotes of their own leaders. Go out and purchase the whole Journal of Discourses and read it. If you do, you will seriously question your own religion, and if you are honest you WILL leave it.

    What some Mormon posters here fail to notice that in all my posts, I am using many different sources, not the same ones over and over. These ‘talking points’ are not isolated quotes taken out of context, they are the basic fundamental teachings of the Mormon Church that they are now trying to hide, discount and change the meaning of. The reason for going back to ‘the basics’ of Mormonism, is that it was ‘founded’ on these principles. They have not been ‘disproven’ no matter what believing Mormons might say. Instead of countering, the Mormons say we ‘twist’ them, etc. not realizing we have read the material, believed in it and REJECTED IT for what it is, a shadow religion of True Christianity inspired by the fertile mind of Smith & the Dictators of Mormonism..

  34. Olsen,

    I often find the labels and terms outsiders use towards Christians as illuminating as well as a source of pride for myself. Muslims call us “Um Al Kitab” and Um Al Injeel” The people of the book (Bible) and the people of the gospel. Thse are titles I do not mind.

    I also do not mind the title of “hyper-believers”. Being guilty of believing something too much does not seem like a bad thing at all. Unlike you, I do not believe my works will spare me God’s wrath; I think God does that. I do not add to His sparring work with my obedience, even though I obey (not perfectly but I “follow” Him).

    I do not hold to the false dichotomy between belief and works that you have. I believe the one will always, to an extent, be present with the other. The questions are “how much” and “in what manner”. I find it poignant that Christians are often accused of antinomialism yet it is they who historically have been the ones who are most evangelistic and the most prone to engage in charitable causes. The Asian Tsumani, and its subsequent relief effort, proved (if anything could ever be proven) that “easy-believism” Christians do works.

    I see Mormons, and other religionists that hold that works are a necessary part of exaltation, as not taking their notions to their theological end. If Matt 5:48 really means, “You must become sinless in this lifetime in order to dwell with the fullness of the Godhead” then I would like to see a Mormon who would be honest and say that he/she will very likely be separated from the Godhead for eternity.

  35. grindael says:


    You can escape the ‘Mormon’ SHADOW VERSIONS of Faith, Baptism, Repentance and the Gift of the HG, by rejecting the false religion of Joseph Smith & the ‘restored priestcraft’ they claim for authority to do these shadow ordinances.

    The Great Beloved Dictator of Mormondom will have you vote by rote, deny science and facts, turn a blind eye to history, & deceive you into believing a lie, starting with the phony first vision of smith until you become a robot, unable to think for yourself or do anything contrary to that which your ‘leaders’ prescribe for you to do. This is the great beloved dictatorship founded by smith & contiuned by young & all the rest. Here is a page from history that all should take notice of and impress upon the mind, for this is the real mormonism:

  36. grindael says:

    “I am sorry that no one has even taken a picture of the [General Conference] audience voting to accept the Church leaders for a new period of office. Every hand in the audience goes up simultaneously. The question of voting “Yes” or “No” on a particular candidate is so mechanical that the hands go up in a unison that is most dramatic.” No member is ever asked to choose between two individuals; he is asked to vote “Yes” or “No” on the official or on the policies of the Church, as the case may be… The officials would be highly indignant if there were any hands raised in opposition and there have been instances where one hand has gone up in opposition and the person attempted to explain the reason for his opposition but such a person is usually ejected…
    “I do not want to bother you with the story but I am sure that any student of Sociology who is interested in the problem of authoritarianism would find the Mormon Church a laboratory rich in material for his studies.”
    – Dean R. Brimhall, letter to Miss Dorothy Kahn, April 17, 1939, Dean R. Brimhall Papers, Box 26, Folder 15, University of Utah Library.

  37. Ralph says:


    You wrote “deny science and facts, turn a blind eye to history”. I love it when Traditional Christians say this about the LDS church. It makes me laugh for ages – seriously.

    I am a scientist, I have been through uni, done a PhD and do research as a profession. I mingle with many scientists from around the world. The split with regards to religion is about 50:50 (from my experience) of atheists/agnostics/skeptics to religious (Christian/Muslim/etc). Out of those who claim a religious background, many are skeptical of the Bible and their religion so are not practicing. The reason being is that there is no proof of God to be seen anywhere whether scientific, historical or archaeological. And science has ‘proven’ the Bible wrong more than once especially when it comes to the creation of the world and its age. Then there is evolution vs creationism for the living organisms on this earth.

    As for historical value – yes there are people, events and places in the Bible that concur with history, but there is much that does not. It’s very much like Forrest Gump and other such historical fiction (look the term up in wiki – its been around for millennia). For example historians say that Jerusalem was a city kingdom, not a huge empire as the Bible states. There is contradictory evidence on whether the Israelites destroyed Jericho or a smaller city next to it. Although Moses was supposed to be the adopted son of a pharaoh and led a mass migration out of Egypt, there is no evidence of him or the migration. And the amount of food/water,etc for the exodus for 40 years proves to non-believers that it was impossible.

    So Bible believers have to do the same as you claim us LDS do – forgo science and history to believe in it and God.

  38. falcon says:

    Steve Kay, the young man in the video, had a revelation of Jesus Christ. He didn’t get knocked to the ground as the apostle Paul did, however God revealed Himself to Steve, just like He did to Paul. Steve can apply these portions of Scripture to himself just as all true believers in Jesus Christ can.
    “…that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him, I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe…..” (Ephesians 1:17-18)
    Mormons do not have a “revelation” of God. What they have are the mental meanderings of a false prophet Joseph Smith. As I’m fond of saying, Mormonism isn’t a perfect counterfeit, but it proves to be an effective one when applied to some people.
    There is no “continual revelation” in Mormonism; just the same error repeated over and over again. When a Christian receives a revelation of God and of Jesus Christ they are filled with the Holy Spirit and are led to a deeper knowledge and understanding of God. The relationship with Jesus grows deeper and more intimate with time as believers release those things that encumber them and they walk in newness of life.
    The fresh revelation of the Spirit develops in those who will yield themselves to Him, the fruit of the Spirit which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Those in the Spirit also concur with Paul that, “…those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:24-25)
    Steve Kay came to Jesus, not a religion, but a personal relationship with the living God.

  39. grindael says:


    Your argument is disingenuous to say the least. Jerusalem IS THERE. How it is described by some is really irrelevant, is it not? Where is Zarahemla? Where are all the other cities from the BOM? Whether the Israelites destroyed Jericho or not, the city is a proven fact. There is no such proof for the Book of Mormon & it looks more hopeless every day. Mormon leaders have spouted off on every topic under the sun, even claiming men on the moon. Try to pin them down on the BOM geography & you have statements like this from George Q. Cannon in 1890:

    “The brethren who lecture on the lands of the Nephites or the geography of the Book of Mormon are not united in their conclusions. No two of them, so far as we have learned, are agreed on all points, and in many cases the variations amount to tens of thousands of miles. These differences of views lead to discussion, contention and perplexity; and we believe more confusion is caused by these divergences than good is done by the truths elicited.”

    Why don’t they ask God, as has been requested time after time? Even ‘Q’ says this:

    “The First Presidency has often been asked to prepare some suggestive map illustrative of Nephite geography, but have never consented to do so. Nor are we acquainted with any of the Twelve Apostles who would undertake such a task. The reason is, that without further information they are not prepared even to suggest [a map]. The word of the Lord or the translation of other ancient records is required to clear up many points now so obscure….” – Juvenile Instructor, Jan. 1, 1890.

    You have a ‘prophet’ handy, have him ‘reveal’ to us where the location is! Why have they not, obvious answer: they can’t tell us the location of a fictional place. The only thing left to do is say: “I wasn’t with Joseph, but I believe him. My faith did not come to me through science, and I will not permit so-called science to destroy it.”

  40. grindael says:

    The argument of science vs. the bible is an easy one and often overlooked by so many. Yes, there was a greater burden on those of former ages to accept things totally on faith, and when science conflicts with faith, then yes, we go back to faith as believing Christians.

    What Mormons have done though, is box themselves into a corner with the statements of their prophets & Smith’s BOM. There is just no historical setting for it AND THERE SHOULD BE. There is nothing there, even with all of the science we have today. Why? Again, obvious answer. Read, for example this quote:

  41. grindael says:

    “The terms cattle, horses, sheep and so on are mentioned at several points in the Nephite record. And it is dismaying to some who wish to be dismayed, I believe and a few others who (honestly) wish an answer could be provided why there are not cows like we mean cows, horses like we mean horses, sheep like we mean sheep. The fact is that all the ancient studies say those animals simply were not present in the New World. Period. They were not here.” – John Sorenson, LDS Apologist, FARMS article from their website

    Is anything scientifically going to ‘magically appear’ to clear up the obvious lies of Smith? I’ll leave that to your scientific mind to rationalize. You have a whole lot of Mormons now trying to explain away geography, and science & say that these are spiritual books and faith is all you need. That is fine in the time of Smith, but we do not live then.

    As for creationism Vs. what is in the Bible, again, we have our faith in Jesus, and things NOT necessary for our salvation are often bandied about. Unfortunately for the Mormon Church, the BOM is necessary, and they are stuck with it and the statements made about it by their leaders.

  42. grindael says:

    How does ‘science’ reconcile this quote? (One of many like it) Again, you have them from apostles & prophets who are supposed to know what they are talking about…

    “The Lamanites, now a down-trodden people, are a remnant of the house of Israel. The curse of God has followed them as it has done the Jews, though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the Lamanites.” – Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 173

    The darkened skin brought on by sin, is just plain ignorant. The Mormons have tried to purge out of the BOM & the references to them becoming ‘white’ and delightsome… Which hasn’t happened at all, even to those Indians that have become Mormons…

    And then we have DNA:

    “So far, DNA research has lent no support to the traditional Mormon beliefs about the origins of Native Americans. Instead, genetic data have confirmed that migrations from Asia are the primary source of American Indian origins… While DNA shows that ultimately all human populations are closely related, to date no intimate genetic link has been found between ancient Israelites and indigenous Americans, much less within the time frame suggested in the Book of Mormon.” – Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist, American Apocrypha, 2002, p. 47-48

    “I don’t think there is one iota of evidence that suggests a lost tribe from Israel made it all the way to the New World. It is a great story, slain by ugly fact.” – Michael Crawford, anthropologist at University of Kansas, as quoted in Thomas Murphy, Mormon anthropologist, American Apocrypha, p. 53

    Smith made up the BOM. It is so obvious, even a cave-man can understand it.

  43. falcon says:

    We really don’t have to go any further than Smith’s invention of a new form of gods. But if someone is taken in by Smith’s “revelation” then they’ll buy any part of the program including the rejection of the God revealed in the Bible. This is the real crux of the difference between Christianity and the false religion of Mormonism. We can discuss works righteousness and grace and any other subject until the cows come home. The fact of the matter is that all discussions other then “Who is God?” are moot. Since Mormons have chosen to follow a false prophet and his false god, there really isn’t any basis for any other discussion when it comes to religious doctrine.
    Now grindael has done a good job of pointing out how the BoM is a work of fiction. Notice I didn’t say a “good” work of fiction. I believe Samuel Clemens called it “chloroform in print.” Another critic said that if you removed “and it came to pass” from the BoM, there would be nothing left.
    The Community of Christ has figured out the deal and have given their members the option of seeing it as a “spiritual” book. Grant Palmer said that the BoM is 25% King James Bible, 25% Christian revivalism, 25% things that were common in the environment of the time, and 25% Smith’s own creativity. He also said that when people respond to the “spirit” (I’d say ambiance) of the BoM its the revivalism.
    So, in Smith, we have a guy who rejected Christianity and God and invented his own god and his own scripture. As we see from the Mormon posters here, the emotional hook of Mormonism is deeply set.

  44. Janet says:

    “Horse. There have been a number of horse bones discovered in America that might date to Book of Mormon times. The surviving remains from such finds are currently undergoing testing to determine their antiquity.”

    John L. Sorenson, “Once More: The Horse,” Reexploring the Book of Mormon, ed., John W. Welch (Salt Lake C

    Claims are one thing, not everything that ever existed has been found, to argue logical surety, is arguing from ignorance or silence. Some were convinced that Camels were unknown in Egypt. Not true by todays research, scholars now realize camels did exist, and state that from prehistoric to the present is now a known fact.


  45. Olsen Jim wrote

    They have so consistently and fully equated the Bible in so many ways with God Himself, they have become one and the same in their view. In doing so, they actually reject the God who gave the scripture in preference for their legalistic insistence on worshipping the creation (the bible).

    This is laughable; a Mormon who claims to speak on behalf of the “God who gave the scripture”.

    OK, OJ, which “god” gave us the scripture? Jesus? Heavenly Father? Heavenly Father’s Father? Heavenly Father’s Father’s Father?

    Maybe it was the Egyptian deity Min (who appears on the Book of Breathing …ahem… Book of Abraham).

    Which one of these distinct and separate persons are you speaking for?

    What happens when they present mutually opposing obligations on us as believers? How can I keep them all happy?

    And, how do you regard this “god’s” creation (the Bible)? All I have ever seen posted from you and other LDS is that when it contradicts you, you simply ignore it.

    I can only infer that, like Steve Kay, whenever you saw something you didn’t like, you binned it under the heading “improperly translated”.

    That’s laugh out loud funny. If you really want “improperly translated”, take a look at the Book of Abraham.

    Does that mean I can ignore everything that Joseph Smith wrote? I mean, what JS wrote was supposed to be the Word of God too. So, what’s the difference between his writings and the Bible?

    You berate Evs for not taking the Word of God seriously (and you so want to be true, despite all that has been posted here). Your case, however, might have not be so ludicrous if you would at least attempt to abide by your own advice.

    Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

    (Matt 7:3).

  46. Janet says:

    Who is God? http://www.paluxybaptist.org/pdfs/Teaching/CL_Mormon_Concept_of_God.pdf

    “A being who is subject to the
    laws and principles of a universe He did not create.”

    “Here, then, is
    eternal life—to know the only wise and true God;
    and you have got to learn how to be gods
    yourselves, and be kings and priests to God, the
    same as all gods have done before you, namely, by
    going from one small degree to another, and from a
    small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace,
    from exaltation to exaltation, until
    you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are
    able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in
    glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting

    “Mormonism therefore teaches that certain basic
    realities have always existed and are indestructible even
    by God. In other words, God came from the universe; the
    universe did not come from God (although he did form
    this planet out of preexistent matter). For Mormonism,
    God, like man, is merely another creature in the universe.
    In the Mormon universe, God is not responsible for
    creating or sustaining matter, energy, natural laws, human
    personhood, moral principles, the process of salvation (or
    exaltation), or much of anything. In fact, instead of the
    universe being subject to Him (which is the biblical
    view), the Mormon God is subject to the universe. The
    Mormon God is far from omnipotent. He is not the God
    of the Bible.”

  47. falcon says:


    You are a beauty and breath of fresh air here on MC. I continue to give you credit, you do have a firm grasp on the Mormon god, such as he is. And Mormons think this god will save them? Evidently not given the need for a personal contribution of sweat and toil on the road to personal deification.
    You provide a very good explanation of the false god of Mormonism. Could you please go on an advertising campaign and alert the world as to who the Mormon god is and how he defers from the God of both the OT and NT. This is indeed a monumental day here at MC. Your last two sentences should be posted on billboards across the nation. The message would be:
    “THE MORMON GOD IS FAR FROM OMNIPOTENT. HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.” Approved by the General Authorities of the LDS church and its prophet Thomas Monson.
    Mormon missionary like to give out the line, when they encounter Christians that, “we believe what you believe” or some derivative of the same.
    It’s plain to see why Mormons have to degrade the Bible. It doesn’t support Joseph Smith’s fantasy limited god theory.
    There it is, plainly spoken. Mormons have made a very bad choice in rejecting the God of the Bible for a false god of not much substance and power. He can’t even save them. They must save themselves with a little help if needed to reach the god pinnacle. Everyone else gets saved regardless of their faith or lifestyle. This Mormon god is quite a guy!

  48. Mike R says:


    I have to agree with Falcon that it sure would
    be great if Thomas Monson stated what you just
    posted.If he would publically read your post at
    next Gen.Conference, or advise the missionaries
    to read this during their first visit with people
    they contact, it could only help non-Mormons know
    where Mormons are coming from etc.

  49. Janet says:

    I would whole heartedly support Thomas Monson in this, to be sure the whole of Christianity has lost the concept of what was once known to the Church of God, I will continue to promote the light and knowledge that at least for me is acceptable and believable. I do not, nor can I speak for others, but the doctrine of a Universe that existed without beginning or end fits nicely with the concept of Eternity. Evangelicals need to articulate what eternity is to them, when they try to refute that God organized, but firmly believe that he created into existence all that is.


  50. falcon says:

    Hay Janet,
    The bottom line for Christians is that God is sovereign. That’s the God that is revealed in the Bible. I have no problems with Mormons in regard to what they believe as long as they don’t try to promote it as original Christianity. As a side note, Joseph Smith held to a traditional view of God when he started his religion. He later began to mix in other ideas and it was essential that he get people to accept a concept of a defective corrupted Bible. That way he could free flow with his “revelation”. Incidentally, revelation is the tool/tactic that those wishing to go a direction other than the established Christian norm go in developing their own unique religions. That’s why there needs to be a test, a standard by which to hold these folks accountable.
    Paul, in his last few sentences to the Romans writes:
    “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen” (Romans 16:25-27)
    This passage of Scripture gives us a standard by which to judge Joseph Smith’s revelation. Contrary to what Smith said, the Bible tells us that the revelation has taken place already. It has come forth as the prophets foretold in the Scriptures. Paul says “the eternal God”. Emphasis on the word “eternal”. “The only wise God”; emphasis on “only”. Now you have made a decision to follow a revelation that runs contrary to God’s revealed Word. Without a standard by which to compare a revelation, folks will fall head-long into error and apostasy.

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