I am at a loss. I can’t find the logic in a statement found in Mormon Times (or the article that follows it). Maybe the Mormon Coffee community can suss this out and make some sense of it for me.
Mormon Times reported that at the BYU Studies Symposium a couple of weeks ago Paul Callister, associate professor of law/library director at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law, shared his fascination with, and knowledge of, orbs. Mormon Times said,
“[Callister’s] interest led him to research orbs — and how they are connected with Joseph Smith’s Urim and Thummim and seer stone.
“In fact, Callister said that Joseph’s use of an orb, a seer stone, is an undeniable sign of the truth of the Book of Mormon.”
Callister reportedly talked about the artistic depiction of orbs throughout history as a symbol of authority. Then,
“‘Why did Joseph Smith have the … seer stone?’ Callister asks. ‘Why did he have to have them? And why don’t we have them today?’
“The seer stone, along with the sword of Laban and other things, serve the same symbolic function as they did with the ancients: ‘They are signs of his authority,’ Callister said. ‘It’s a way to plead his case.’
“Orbs have always historically symbolized two things, according to Callister: knowledge and authority.
“So where are the symbolic orbs showing authority today? There is an orb substitute.
“‘We have the book produced by the seer stone,’ Callister said.
“A real orb equates, at last, with a real book — bridging the symbolic and the tangible — spanning the knowledge of God and the authority of God.”
What I don’t understand is how Joseph Smith’s use of an orb, a seer stone, is “an undeniable sign of the truth of the Book of Mormon.” Smith used an “orb” for hire when he unsuccessfully sought to discover buried treasure for his employers, as well. What “undeniable truth” does this orb-use confirm?
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(Many thanks to grindael for the graphic used above.)
wow, i have that “one in a million” quote going on in my head again. embrace anything that is remotely sypathetic, sounds like to me.
The Mormon religion… it’s fully loaded with things you have to talk yourself into believing. Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet, Yes, I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet…
until you think you’ve got it in there good, and have yourself convinced. Yes, the church is true, yes…
Christianity is SO not like that. People who’ve never looked don’t understand how Christianity is not a religion. It’s not something you talk yourself into believing. It proves itself.
Orb-use, proving the Book of Mormon? Why not? How is it any weirder than the rest of what Mormons have done to prove Mormonism to themselves? It helps you talk yourself into it again.
Man what a great article Sharon. Mormons can make anything work, it doesn’t matter what. The phrase “Therefore the church is true” can be attached to anything and everything. It’s a form of logic that…..well escapes logic. But it works for the well indoctrinated, “I want to believe this so bad” Mormon.
I don’t fully understand election and what it means, but for some reason, there are Mormons that just can’t get enough of Mormonism, no matter how silly. Why they can’t see clearly is a real mystery to me. I will stay with John 6:44 and wonder what it means and why some Mormons, like our past poster Arthur Sido could go down on his knees a Mormon and raise to his feet a born again Christian.
It’s just too wonderful to explain God’s love and mercy.
And Mormons sell-out for a man with a magic rock!
I found another article about ‘jacobs pillow’ or the ‘stone of Scone’ in connection to the British Monarchy.
Its supposed to be “the very stone on which Jacob had rested his head while he saw the vision of the Heavenly Ladder at Bethel.” Its enclosed in a wooden chair, enclosed it in a wooden chair. “If a false ruler intruded himself the Stone of Fate remained silent, but it greeted a rightful monarch with a groaning sound.”
Wow, if only we could have an accurate stone for determining the right ruler! Have every political candidate sit on the stone!
http://www.londononline.co.uk/monarchy/Stone_of_Scone/
I don’t know if this proves much, but it is kind of fun to read about these traditions and belief.
The way I figure it, according to the guy cited in the above article, anyone with a magic rock can claim authority. Think of all of the occultists who have those fine rocks for scrying. If my memory serves me right, not just Joseph Smith but other members of his merry gang of treasure hunters, sported magic rocks. Smith didn’t invent scrying, he was merely practicing an “art” that had been around forever. Divination rods were also quite popular.
Mormons, in their total flip of reality, really think this stuff is groovy. Anything that taps into the occult spirit world is embraced by these Mormons; who have zero spiritual discernment. That’s the delusion Mormons operate under. Total spiritual blindness.
Falcon,
When I was an active LDS member I asked about using a ‘magic rock’, I wanted my own naturally, because it was mentioned being used by Smith. I was informed that I couldn’t have one, that would be a ‘peep stone’, only church leaders could use a seer stone, perhaps only ones given a stone. At least that was what I was told. You are right about one thing however, LDS belief encourages acceptance of such objects under a certain set of conditions.
How did Hebrew prophets receive dreams and visions? That is mentioned throughout the Bible.
Enki,
They did you a favor by not giving you your own rock. It kept you from getting into something that is forbidden in the Bible because you’d be tapping into something that would eventually turn and bite you (metaphorically speaking).
If you want to do a quick study, skim the Book of Acts and note where God spoke to people in dreams. Another interesting quick study, is look at the first few chapters of Matthew and Luke and see how God uses dreams. The gift of discernment reveals to someone the source of a dream, a vision, a miracle or any number of supernatural happenings.
Again, the problem with Mormons is that because of the foundation of their religion, they have sold out to familiar spirits who they assume come from God. The problem is that the “god” they follow, is not the God of the Bible. Pagans can have all sorts of “spiritual” events and they assume that they are experiencing something quite wonderful, when it’s not.
Mormons don’t see it of course because they have attached themselves to a force that presents itself as light. The Bible warns of this but since Mormons discount the Bible they are denying themselves the source of truth that could rescue them from the darkness they are in.
The answer of course is John 6:44.
I believe Joe’s magic rock/orb made a command performance at the dedication of the Manti Temple where it was lovingly placed on the altar. I don’t know where it is now but one would think it would be occupying some place of honor where the whole world could come and observe it. Perhaps placed in a shatter proof glass box with armed guards surrounding it. They could march it up to the podium at general conference where the current prophet could put it in a hat, shove his face in it (hat) and proclaim to faithful Mormons current revelation. Replicas could be sold to generate more revenue for the Mormon church. Mormons could even retire to some room in the SLC temple where, for a fee, they could have the prophet inquire by use of the magic rock, an individuals own private “reading”. The rock could be used to solve crime, find missing bodies, predict the stock market and cure diseases. It could also be used to make contact with Joseph Smith himself. Tee shirts could be screen printed with a picture of the orb with a caption like “Rock the Spirit World”.
The inability of Mormons to understand what all of this occult nonsense is all about is truly breath-taking.
From “Temple Manifestations” by Joseph Heinerman:
“One item mentioned by President Woodruff about the private dedicatory services at Manti is of more than passing interest. ‘Before leaving,’ he writes, ‘I consecrated upon the altar the Seer Stone that Joseph Smith found by revelation some thirty feet under the earth (ground), and carried by him through life.’ This is the very Seer Stone that the Prophet Joseph Smith used part of the time when translating the Book of Mormon; the one he took from the well he was digging with his brother Hyrum, near Palmyra, for Mr. Clark Chase,…In the dedicatory prayer delivered May 21st, 1888, by Apostle Lorenzo Snow at the Manti Temple these words were spoken: ‘Wilt Thou accept and bless these sacred altars which have been erected by the offerings of Thy devoted Saints?’ Undoubtedly, ‘these sacred altars’ were accepted by God, and if President Wilford Woodruff, a true Prophet of God, consecrated Joseph Smith’s Seer Stone upon an altar, then it (the Seer Stone) was obviously accepted by the Most High-in the Manti Temple.”
This is a great example of a religious scam. What’s interesting is that certain folks learn of the scam and flee from it, accepting whatever loss they have incurred. Others however, double down in an attempt to rescue their equity and “prove” that it isn’t a scam but the real deal. The “double downers” can’t handle whatever emotional trauma would accompany an open admission that they have been scammed. They also want very badly for it all to be true and are willing to accept whatever explanation is offered no matter how far fetched or ridiculous.
Thus we have the “orb” becoming a symbol of authority. The truth is just too painful to even consider.
I think something should be made clear here, and Mormons always seem to conveniently forget this. Smith did not find the stone, Willard Chase did. Smith stole it from Chase:
When Chase asked for it back, this was what happened:
So Smith used a peepstone that he stole from someone else to do the mormon god’s work?
Hay grindael,
Great work! A stolen peep stone. The guy was a crook to the core. He couldn’t even get his own magic rock!
I’ve often wondered why the Mormon church doesn’t make some use of this rock or why they don’t encourage their members to use seer stones and second sight vision for that matter as Smith and his cronies did. Fawn Bodie talks about this in her book but she talks about Smith’s transition from using the rock to just speaking prophesies. It seems as he gained more confidence and was able to move the gullible emotionally, he just started letting loose with his free flow of consciousness.
“Very quickly he discarded the last remnants of his youthful necromancy, giving up the mineral rod even before the BoM was completed. Later he stopped using the stones, except in rare instances, realizing finally that by drawing the attention of his followers they robbed him of his own authority. David Whitmer wrote that ‘Joseph gave the stone to Oliver Cowdery, and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the stone any more…He told us that we would all have to depend on the Holy Ghost hereafter to be guided into truth and obtain the will of the Lord. The revelations after this came through Joseph as mouthpiece; that is, her would enquire of the Lord, pray and ask concerning a matter, and speak out the revelation.” (pp. 91,92 “No Man Knows My History”)
So there we have it, Joseph gave up his magic rock because without its use, he had more authority. He could just do the old “God told me” routine and the peeps would think he was getting revelation from God. It takes a lot of confidence and skill to pull this off, but that’s the stock and trade of the accomplished con artist.
It’s really kind of funny when you think about it, that this magic rock (that Mormons I assume think Smith got from God) that he depended on for his magical translation of the golden plates, gets discarded. That was Joseph Smith though. He’d make use of anyone or anything for a season and then dump it and move on to a “new revelation”. He could never be wrong using this technique.
Man, what a ferry tale!
Hi Falcon,
I think you are wrong about the seer stone, and a lot of info has come out since Brodie wrote ‘No man…’, like the Wilford Woodruff Diaries. Here is one interesting entry about Smith’s seerstone from the Kirtland Period. Shows that he was still using it, and why they were doing this is a question I have pondered since reading this entry:
I guess they all got ‘spooked’ when Kimball walked in, thinking he was some kind of ghost. Makes you wonder exactly what they were looking in the stone to find, doesn’t it?
I also think Smith never gave up his stone and used it A LOT more than has been revealed. I think there is plenty of evidence in the Church Archives that will NEVER be revealed about it.
grindael,
Thanks for the clarification. What I find amazing is the degree to which Mormons will go to rationalize, justify and explain away all things Joseph Smith. Nacromancy, including having the spirits of dead people showing up during the dunking for the dead rituals, is seen as a real funky spiritual happening. I just don’t get it! Why don’t Mormons see this stuff for what it is? How can they possibly be blind to it all.
The problem is that they have no standard by which to judge a “revelation” or a “spiritual” experience. It’s all good!
The first time the guy shows-up with his rock, I tell him to take a hike. Mormons will counter that someone like myself isn’t open to spiritual experiences, revelation, and the acceptance of burning bosoms as a test for truth. I would counter by saying that I’m not open to evil spirits that masquerade as light when they are darkness.
The Bible is way down the list of scripture that Mormons would consult. By cutting themselves off from the truth of God’s Word, they are open to every wave of doctrine; the doctrine of demons that doesn’t recognize the One, True, Eternal God.
That’s where magic rocks lead people.
John 6:44
In Mormonism the Bible reflects what Mormons believe not what the Bible teaches. The seduction in Mormonism is the concept of “continuous revelation” which is really a misnomer for “continuous changing revelation”. Joseph Smith, with his magic rock dazzled the uninformed, the ignorant and the easily impressed and led people. The same is true today. I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, if a guy shows up with a magic rock claiming all sorts of spiritual manifestations, insights and revelation, I dismiss him out-of-hand. Now why would I do that? Very simply because I know the source of his power is not the Holy Ghost but a familiar spirit he has sought to contact by means forbidden by the Bible. I would also know, by simply judging the prophetic “error rate” of this self-proclaimed prophet, that he does not meet the Biblical criteria for the office.
Mormons are willing to dive head-long into spiritual destruction because of their attraction to the shinny object which is Mormonism. The spirit manifestations in the temple, the impressive dreams and even the claims of miracles draw them like a moth to a flame. Dancing ever closer to the light and warmth of the flame, they are eventually consumed in the searing fire of deception.
But it makes them feel so good so how could it possibly be wrong? I’ve written at length previously about the dynamics of “traps”, psychological and spiritual. In any entrapment situation we have the predator, the prey, the trap (which is specially designed for the prey), and the bait (which causes the prey to act in ways that are not in its best interest).
There’s all kinds of “bait” in spiritual deception. In Mormonism it can be the desire and belief that the person will become a god. What attractive bait. It could be the razzle dazzle of spiritual manifestations like the appearance of spirit beings.
Without a proper view of the Word of God, people are suceptible to all forms of spiritual deception. The Word of God serves as our standard.
Falcon,
One of my favorite phrases is that I’m anti-M-ism because I’m pro-Mormon. The reason I bring that up is because I believe that the majority of Mormons – those that are born into it – have been taught to think this weird way their whole lives. From the time we are itty bitty, we are told what to believe. And it doesn’t come from evidence – it just comes from a list. ‘These are the things we believe: ours is the only true church, ours are the only living prophets, the Book of Mormon is true and the Bible iffy, etc.’
So we say to ourselves, ‘in order to be a good person, I have to believe this’ and we set to work forcing these things into our belief system.
Then one day, someone or something comes along that goes against what we believe. Instead of being able to go back to the evidence, and compare the new information against the old, and weigh it out and make a decision — we have already made the decision, based on nothing but the decision to believe what we are supposed to believe. AND OUR WHOLE IDENTITY AS A GOOD PERSON IS WRAPPED UP IN OUR ABILITY TO DO THIS.
It’s totally different that Biblical Christianity, where if you keep digging and searching into truth in any venue, you eventually get to the bottom rock layer, and it’s identical with the truth written in the Bible. Then, when something new comes up and tries to challenge your belief in YHWH/Yeshua, you have a track record of proof to hang onto, and you can compare evidence against evidence, knowing by experience how it will all pan out in the end.
No … those who have spent their lives Mormon think that any and all faith in God comes from just trying to convince yourself that He’s out there, and convincing yourself of whatever else is sold in your religion. So God and the Bible are not so appealing to an exiting Mormon — many think it’s just yet another something that people have forced themselves to believe…
setfree,
What you are describing is called “Identity Foreclosure”. It’s the acceptance of parental life choices without consideration of options. On-the-other-hand “Identity Achievement” is a strong sense of commitment to life choices after free consideration of alternatives. “Identity Diffusion” is a sense of uncenteredness and confusion about who one is and what one wants.
Some sects of the Amish have something called “rumspringa” which loosely translated means “time of running around”. Basically what the parents do at a certain point in a teens life is let-up on the rules and let the kids go a little nuts. The amount of going nuts varies among sects and parents. One kid might soup-up his buggy with a sound system and get a cell phone. Others get cars, go to movies, drink, smoke, whatever. At some point, however, the individual has to make a decision whether to get baptized and join the sect or leave. The penalty for leaving is pretty stiff in some cases because it could mean shunning.
My daughter is twenty-three now, but I used to tell her that if she had a mind to rebel against my wife and me, that I’d put together a “rebellion package” for her. That way she could go nuts without doing any serious damage to herself. She never took me up on it but at least when it came to religious matters, I hope I taught her to think for herself. I did spend a lot of time cult proofing her.
She use to tell me, “Dad I’m not feeling all of this stuff that the other Christian kids my age report feeling.” I told her, “That’s good because your feelings count for zero when it comes to determining the truth of a religious matter.” I communicated to her that “feelings” were a bonus and our salvation is based on the “fact” that Jesus died for our sins and we have received the gift of eternal life through faith. If it makes you “feel” good when you think about it, great!
The fact that 50% of Mormon missionaries eventually go inactive is telling. Eventually the repetition of the five points of Mormonism isn’t enough to hold them. If they aren’t into the stifling Mormon culture, they bolt the program. They form their own identity a part from Mormonism.
I don’t know how wide-spread the practice is because I’m not in an area where there are many Mormons, but I’ve heard that in some instances, the Mormon church is trying to inoculate their kids against the malady known as “shaken faith syndrome” that seems to plague Mormonism. The idea is to tell them about Joseph Smith’s magic rock, the treasure hunting, his numerous wives, that he drank, used tobacco and any of the other nasty historical items that might derail a naive believer in Mormonism once they found out about it.
I know the Community of Christ has faced the history of Mormonism straight-on and have even published a document, available on their website, concerning “confronting” their Mormon history. In-fact, the CoC gives their folks the option of recognizing the BoM as a “spiritual book” rather than an actual history. The CoC is pretty conventional as far as Christian doctrine is concerned (I guess they didn’t get the memo regarding the great apostasy) and reflects early Mormon teaching and doctrine rather that the really nutty stuff Smith et al came up with later on.
I don’t know what the CoC does about the magic rock and all of the hocus pocus Smith was into. My guess is Smith gets marginalized as they appear to want to move on.
If that’s what I’m describing, then I’ll continue the thought and say that the majority of Mormons I have ever known are in camp “Identity Foreclosure” or camp “Identity Diffusion”, the second being because of such a strong religious pressure to continue in the first.
The current prophet has a quote out that goes something like this:
“You have a testimony – share it!
You will meet temptation – withstand it!
You have a heritage – honor it!”
(there’s one more line I can’t remember)
You know what I see when I see that 3rd line? Pressure! More and continuing pressure to just “let things be” – to believe that your parents (and grandparents and their parents and so on) were super spiritual and knew what they were doing, and if you step out of their beaten path, you are going against your family.
I read on some blog where the new line in Mormonism is that it’s not important if you don’t have a testimony in the BoM, stay in the program. These folks are real focused on people not busting loose. I was watching a video clip on YouTube or some where of the Shawn McCrady (?) show. Some Mormon guy calls in and in a whine(y) voice just pleads with Shawn, “Won’t you please come back to the church?” The guy sounded like he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown! Simply all emotion!
The light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shines bright illuminating the path to God and righteousness through faith in His sacrifice on the Cross. Leaving the old behind can be difficult I know, but the reward of the upward call of Jesus Christ surpasses anything a religious entity like Mormonism can offer. All Mormonism has to offer is false hope in a gospel that needs to be rejected so that a person can walk in the newness of life in Christ.
Falcon,
You said,
” Leaving the old behind can be difficult, I know,
but the reward of the upward call of Jesus
Christ surpasses anything a religious entity
Mormonism can offer.”
Well said!
Here is the straw-man, “until you think youâve got it in there good, and have yourself convinced. Yes, the church is true, yes⌔
Wow and chuckle. Amazing that such a declaration as we find in the above is used to describe the testimony of a worthy LDS member. How about revelation, what ever happened to evidence that even Paul was said to have received,
“Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”.
Did Paul go around stating that Jesus is the Christ, by convincing himself of that. Hardly and neither do LDS members. Revelation and not the flesh and blood of any man, not even Joseph Smith.
Janet.
Falcon,
Ok, taking a look in Matthew go provided dreams to warn people, and declare the Birth of Jesus.So for this portion of the question, god provides dreams, all you have to do is sleep like you usually do. You don’t have to do much of anything special.
As far as visions go, perhaps more particular circumstances have to happen to have them.
Daniel states that “… I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai…”Dan. 8: 1-2
Ezekiel states…”and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar.”Ezek. 43: 3
“..the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.”
Ezek. 8: 3-4
“…I was…by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.”
Ezek. 1: 1
In these examples these people were near a body or water, or near a plain. I can only imagine that the plain was large and flat with very uniform features. Some techniques of scrying use water, or by looking at uniform fields of vision. It could be an expanse in nature, like a large flat field, snow, water, or the sky. Other forms may use a crystal with uniform features. The Ganzfeld effect is believed to account for this.
“In the 1930s, research by psychologist Wolfgang Metzger established that when subjects gazed into a featureless field of vision they consistently hallucinated and their electroencephalograms changed.
The Ganzfeld effect is the result of the brain amplifying neural noise in order to look for the missing visual signals. The noise is interpreted in the higher visual cortex, and gives rise to hallucinations. This is similar to dream production because of the brain’s state of sensory deprivation during sleep.
The Ganzfeld effect has been reported since ancient times. The adepts of Pythagoras retreated to pitch black caves to receive wisdom through their visions[2], known as the prisoner’s cinema. Miners trapped by accidents in mines frequently reported hallucinations, visions and seeing ghosts when they..”
“…visions and seeing ghosts when they were in the pitch dark for days. Arctic explorers seeing nothing but featureless landscape of white snow for a long time also reported hallucinations and an altered state of mind.”
Thats from wikki…and they give the following sitations.
1. ^ Ramesh B. Ganzfeld Effect. http://www.shvoong.com/exact-sciences/biology/neuroscience/1671321-ganzfeld-effect/.
2. ^ Ustinova, Yulia.Caves and the Ancient Greek Mind: Descending Underground in the Search for Ultimate Truth, Oxford University Press US, 2009. ISBN 0199548560
http://www.shvoong.com/exact-sciences/biology/1671321-ganzfeld-effect/
Another poster falls into the same pit hole, “Itâs a form of logic thatâŚ..well escapes logic. But it works for the well indoctrinated”
Logic? So after reading the BOM, Bible and all other scripture we are to believe that logic is the rule of the day. Again, an amazing bit of hype, but not at all exciting by LDs standards since we don’t just go around stating I believe because it seems logical. I will admit that commons sense tells me a lot about what is wrong with Christian Creeds, six days of creation, and ex nihilo doctrine.
Logic, I don’t think seeing something as reasonable is what God gave us in the scriptures when he gave us James 1:5. God gave us so much more then just logic, he gave us the ability to know something when asked in faith, humility and a sincere desire to know and understand light and truth.
Janet.
Hi Janet,
Its good to “see” you back here.
Martin
Enki,
I didn’t know about the Ganzfeld effect, but I saw a fascinating documentary a few months ago about why European cavemen painted their pictures in caves (and why the paintings were often covered in dots and grids). The theory goes that the sensory deprivation in the cave amplified the cavemens’ perceptive experience to produce a semi-hallucinogenic state, so that the cavemen thought they were “seeing” into the spirit world. The thesis went on to say that this formed the basis for representing reality by creating symbolic forms, which eventually evolved into pictures and writing. What’s interesting about this is that we so easily see a picture of a horse and say “that’s a horse”, without knowing that it is actually an acquired skill.
Getting back to your queries about Biblical visions and dreams, and equivalent experiences outside the Bible, my concern, as always, is “what’s the agenda?” Does it draw a person to the worship of Christ, or does it serve some other purpose?
Janet,
What is your opinion about the Ganzfeld effect?
Martin,
Whats the agenda? I think most cultures looked to dreams and visions for the purpose of trying to understand the world, to find meaning, and guidance. Maybe about the future, perhaps the past. A Christian would look to christian concerns, Jews for jewish concerns etc…
Although I am sure how many people in todays world take much significance into dreams, visions etc… Most people in the modern world think of someone who has visions as being a ‘quack’ no matter what the source. Certainly that is a common feeling among LDS critics. The secular world might think its an interesting psychological phenomena, and maybe thats about all. Christians might ask what you are asking, does the vision match my understanding of the Bible? These are real questions, if a vision doesn’t make sense to you, its of no purpose.
Janet quotes James 1:5. I shake my head when LDS use that verse to describe “knowledge” and a way for people to “know” things when that verse means something completely different.
I mean, you don’t have to be a Biblical scholar to know that’s not what James is speaking of. Just an acceptable level of vocabulary would be helpful.
Let me ask you Janet, did James use the word “know” or “knowledge” in that verse? The word used is WISDOM. Wisdom is having the ability to discern or judge right from wrong. To be wise is to make good decisions.
Please don’t put words in James’ book that aren’ there.
And, even if he was speaking about knowledge, then every evangelical on here, or at least most that prayed about the Mormon faith, would be a Mormon because God would have revealed to them that the LDS faith is true. There are people all over that reach out in prayer and never get the tingles about mormonism that you probably received/receive.
Time to pull things into context here. To do so we need to go back to the basics. We must ask ourselves what do Mormons claim as the source of their “power” or “spirituality” and how did Joseph Smith achieve his idea of spiritual nirvana?
So we ask, “Who is the Mormon god?” The Mormon god is a former man who became a god through a system of works righteousness just like millions or billions of similar gods before him and like millions and billions of men after him who discover the secrets of eternal spiritual progression. “From what did Joseph Smith receive his spiritual experiences/power?” He received them through scrying which is an occult practice whereby an object is used to make contact with the spirit world. He also used an occult technique called “second sight vision” which allows the practitioner to “peek” into the spirit world.
So Smith used occult means to contact the spirit world of a god who was a man but progressed to become a god. Mormons have claimed many psychic experiences of appearances of the spirits of dead people including former president Willford Woodruff who claimed that the spirits of the original signers of the Declaration of Independence appeared to him.
It doesn’t take a whole lot of spiritual discernment to figure out what Mormonism is all about. What it takes are people who are so gullible that they will believe it and search high and low for any explanation as to why something that is clearly from the dark side of the spirit world, is, for them, really marvelous, wonderful and full of light.
In addition, people can create their own “spiritual” experiences accompanied by warm and confirming feelings. These come right out of the soul of man. Having down graded the Bible and elevated personal revelation confirmed by feelings as a test for truth, Mormons fall prey to any wind of doctrine or experience that presents itself.
Joseph Smith was a master of manipulation when it came to getting people to have “spiritual” experiences. That tradition is alive and well in Mormonism. These folks find that a lie is much more satisfying to them then the truth.
Chuckle đ I have never experienced seeing a spirit, or having a tingling feeling, whatever that is suppose to represent is beyond what I have witnesses or heard others declare as to the how of their faithful testimonies. Gullible hardly, I don’t ever remember someone tricking me into my testimony either. It is plain that some posters here have a need to stretch the truth in keeping with their hidden agenda to cause our visitors and guest
not to see that the scriptures are excessively abundant with visions, whisperings, dreams, burning in the heart, spoken revelation, and the visitations of spirits.
So our posters go from, (gullibility), tricking us into our testimonies, to convincing ourselves with rote verbal testimonies that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, amazing. Of course this really helps them explain the occult and psychic experiences that one must never experience even thought they can’t explain why the scriptures use such events, terms, and experiences to show that supernatural experiences did and do happen. Again, amazing how conceptually confused Evangelicals have become when they themselves use logic and only evidence, as the means of coming to the knowledge of God and the Scriptures. May I ask, how do any of these poster know that Jesus is the Christ. Logic and evidence is only a small degree of knowledge when compared to the evidence provided by the Holy Ghost.
Janet.
There are many problems with Mormonism none greater than the inability of Mormons to discern spirits. Mormonism has flipped the perception where by they see the truly evil and dark world of the occult as something beautiful. So enamored are Mormons by their feelings and experiences that they cannot see what forces are responsible for their trip into the spiritual realm.
Mormonism, from the beginning used a Trojan Horse of outward piety and feigned Biblical sounding language to seduce the naive and undiscerning. Armed with his magic rock and use of second sight vision, Joseph Smith wowed the gullible into believing that he was having legitimate visions and visitations from heavenly beings.
In Smith’s seduction the Bible became suspect, the Church apostate and even God not really God. He produced his own scripture, his own god, and a false doctrine of “restored” Christianity. Smith borrowed heavily from any source he could find to develop his religion. The occult rituals of the Free Masons became his “ancient wisdom”.
Smith used his powers of persuasion to seduce women followers including those married to members of his church. Keeping with his theme of angelic visitors, he proclaimed to one woman that an angel with a sword appeared to him threatening him with death if he didn’t “marry” more women. It was the pathway to deep spiritual attainment to be sealed to him, Smith explained. So the seduction of women was just one of the added benefits of being a prophet of your own religion. My guess is that several of these women felt warm wonderful feelings and excitement at the thought of reigning for eternity with Smith, enjoying Celestial sex and procreating countless spirit offspring that would come to adore them.
It’s difficult for those of us who see through this pathetic ruse of Smith to understand how active Mormons suck it up with relish. Thus are the dynamics of spiritual seduction.
The verse, “….thinking themselves wise they have become fools” applies. But it feels so good, how can it be wrong. It’s like religious dope.
So in Smith’s case, he took some folk magic, some Evangelical Christian revivalism fervor, a little Bible and a whole lot of imagination to concoct his very own religion. Some people report that they “feel” something as they read the BoM. What they “feel” is the sense or revivalism that Smith was able to communicate in his writing. However, it doesn’t take much to peel back the first layer of the onion skin of Smith’s tome to see what is lurking beneath the surface.
That’s the way seduction works and Smith had plenty of practice during his days of treasure hunting with his magic rock and little band of gold seekers. One of the ingredients in a good seduction is the willingness, on the part of those to be seduced to succumb to your charms. Smith used his charm and a lot of feigned hocus pocus to convince the gullible that they were really into a spiritual vein of gold. It was of course, fools gold.
Even today, Mormons get all excited by the implanted suggestions that they are having spiritual experiences which are confirmed by marvelous feelings. They are dense to the reality that feelings are the results of their own vivid imaginations and desires for something to be true.
The Mormon god is more than happy to provide for the naive Mormon, all of the faux spiritual experiences and feelings their little hearts could desire.
Mormons walk around with a spiritual shroud covering themselves. This dark shroud dulls their understanding and keeps them locked in a deception. Thankfully most Mormons, at least to some degree, sense something isn’t right and flee the Mormon experience. Unfortunately, so dulled are their spiritual sensibilities as a result of their Mormon experience, that they shy away from or outwardly reject the God that has been so maligned by Mormonism.
We can pray that God extends His grace to these poor souls so that they might receive through faith the gift of eternal life that God is offering them through faith in Jesus Christ.
John 6:44
Chuckle đ our poster makes my point, a small degree of knowledge. I wonder how he came to know that “Jesus is the Christ”. That is one statement I never see them tackle, how can they explain their testimony without revealing personal revelation.
Amazing.
Janet.
The ease with which a true believer can dismiss over-whelming evidence that their religion isn’t what it is advertised as, speaks volumes to the depth of spiritual deception they are trapped in. To the fully indoctrinated cult member any “all better now” blankey handed out by the organization suffices to provide confirming feelings that the cult has the answers.
The Bible talks about people being “darkened” in their understanding. It also reveals that people who consistently reject God for a god of their own making go through a process of having their hearts hardened. This happens to a point where the clouds of deception attempt to prohibit the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from reaching the lost soul.
It’s pretty obvious that anyone who would accept as true, the word of a man with a magic rock, has some real problems coming in contact with reality. I often quote Dr. Walter Martin author of “The Kingdom of the Cults” when he said, “A Mormon is able to think rationally in every other aspect of their lives, but not when it comes to their religion.” This blog provides a virtual feast of examples confirming Dr. Martin’s observation.
I often repeat the words of Arthur Sido former Mormon when speaking of his exit out of the Mormon cult said, “I went down on my knees a Mormon and when I arose to my feet I was a born again Christian.” How do we explain an example like this of a man who with full vigor followed the man with the magic rock and when the light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shone on him, it broke through the dark clouds of deception. Well it can best be explained I think by John 6:44.
Mormons have willingly followed another spirit; the one provided for them by the occultist Joseph Smith and his magic rock. As we see from the article posted above, some Mormons go so far as to see the magic rock as a symbol of authority. This is the same religion that rejects the Cross of Jesus Christ as a symbol of salvation while decorating their temples with occult symbols. That in-and-of-itself tells us all we need to know what the spiritual source of Mormonism is.
With those like the chuckler making âstraw-manâ claims, I post this by Charles M. Larson, who says it better than I ever could:
Peep-stone Joe: the money-digger, the adulterer, the liar, the fraud & the list goes on and on with sincere Mormons believing his scams by âfeeling goodâ and accepting on faith whatever the suits in SLC tell them to. Donât research, they say â just believe â and everything will be ok. Perhaps a good hard look at Smith in the light of 1 Thessalonians 5:21 will convince some sincere Mormons of who he truly was, and they will turn from the cult and come to Jesus, the Biblical Jesus who alone can save them. But there are some who never will, who in the light of all the evidence will still believe in Smithâs lies, following the false leaders who have assumed his mantle, and incorporate those lies that âall is wellâ, and ignore the evidence into lives truly devoid of the Saving Power of Jesus.
grindael,
Great information. The yuk-it-up response of a Mormon is a little like the scared child whistling past the grave yard. It has been said that ignorance is bliss and this is so true when it comes to Mormonism. When it’s all striped away, what we have in Mormonism is a whole lot of wishing and hoping because the facts of Joseph Smith the occultist have to be shaped and trimmed and massaged to make them fit.
Why do scores of people check the astrological charts and chase off to psychic healers? Simply, because they want to believe it! In the case of Mormonism, there is ample opportunity at every turn for a Mormon to learn of the truth of Smith the peep stone gazer however the facts don’t match with what the person wants or has been told to believe. Desire is a great motivator. A Mormon’s life is totally defined by Mormonism. What would they do if suddenly all they have invested in turns out to be a fraud. Too scary to imagine for the Mormon.
What I see is a lot of pride and confidence born of ignorance. Cognitive dissonance must be battled continually by the Mormon. The comfort of the wards provides a place to beat back reality. It’s a religious crack-house!
Seems a jump in logic to say that having an orb must mean the book is true.
Alas. Look forward to reading through the comments to find out why…
Did I not predict that my Evangelical friends would not discuss how they came to know that Jesus is the Christ. So there you go visitors and guest, everything else is discussed except personal revelation. So getting back to reality and still issuing the challenge, how about addressing what is a testimony, and how does one get it?
Janet.
How did I come to know Jesus? I came to know Jesus from studying the Bible and looking at my own life. I realized that no matter how much I tried to reach God on my own there was nothing I could do to do, and in fact, the more I tried, the more I screwed things up.
By studying the Bible I realized that the only way to get to him was to allow him fully to lead me. I still get in the way, but I know that I can do nothing on my own to reach or be with God.
He offers a free gift that only requires acceptance. If you try to do it on your own you are messing up his offer.
MJP,
Yes, I am wondering the same thing, what does an orb prove? I posted some links for people to examine, no comments so far. These were about the use of orbs in relation to the British Monarchy. Also swords. The idea is the the ‘rock’, liahona, sword of laban are physical symbols which indicate authority.
The LDS faith seems a little too focused on European and Americanisms it seems to me. Other cultures have used feathers, special headdresses to indicate authority, or leadership.
Janet commented
I don’t object to disussing my “personal revelation”, but I’m afraid that to the neutral observer, the discussion might just seem like a “my personal revelation is better than your personal revelation” tit-for-tat.
For the record, I believe Jesus is the Christ. I also believe that I believe it in the same sense that Peter believed it in Matt 16:16. The thing is, there were a number of “Christs” competing for the leadership of God’s people and many of them were doing it in a secular or political way, by force or the imposition of self-will. So, why did Peter say “You are THE Christ…”? Because, to put it simply, he recognised God when he saw Him.
I also have a personal revelation that Joseph Smith and the Mormonism he invented is the polar opposite of the Christian Gospel, as presented in the Bible, the Word of God. Whatever the Christian Gospel is, Mormonism is its opposite. You can hardly get the Christian Gospel “wronger” than Mormonism.
Given that I received this by direct revelation through prayer from God by the Holy Ghost, would you care to discuss this aspect of my “personal revelation”?
Or, I suggest we keep the discussion a little more circumspect by talking about our convictions and beliefs. At least we wouldn’t get into a futile cycle of claim and counter-claim.
Post script,
The idea that other “Christs” were trying to muscle in on the political, religious and cultural leadership of Israel is borne out by extra-Biblical evidence (Josephus’ Wars of the Jews etc). I also believe that this is what Jesus was referring to in His rather curious statement in Matt 11:12
Enki,
Thanks for your response. What I was pondering was that the agenda of the vision might be more important than the means of getting the vision. As you noted, some of the Biblical visions might have arrived by some rather dubious means.
Enki, I wonder why an orb if we are in America? I have never researched, but it seems feathers and headdresses were the signs of authority here.
I know Moroni’s people “came” from the Middle East, but yet that piece of culture was evidently long lost.
Its just not consistent.
Oh well, what do I know?
MJP,
The only thing I found from web searches on orbs was actually from the British. A lot of early LDS church members had British ancestry, so it only ‘follows’ that there is this connection. A lot of people in the LDS faith think ‘American’ and ‘European’. Such as thinking that the United States is the ‘Promised Land’ set up by god, with the divinely inspired U.S. Constitution. Many LDS members buy into all this. I honestly didn’t think much of it until I went to Korea. It just felt wrong to sing the U.S. National Anthem while there, and also have 4th of July fire works. I often wondered what a Korean LDS convert would think of the notion that the United States is a god inspired country.
Yes, thats correct. There should in theory be multiple ‘signs’ of authority. Joseph could have always had on hand a eagle feather. But there is no such claim as far as I know. I don’t know what are signs of authority in the middle east.
There is another thought, the Celtics did scrying, using a crytal orb, that is associated with the Druids. Again that is a European spiritual tradition, perhaps some early LDS members had some affinity for that as being a sign of spiritual power.
I have attended a Spiritist church, they used various ritual objects, including stones. They claimed that the white stone in Revelation 2:17 is a crystal ball. They also used ‘trumpets’ as a way to hear messages from another realm. They claim that was used in ancient Israel. And of all things they claimed that Jesus was a physical medium, because he could make physical objects appear out of thin air, and heal people. Its all referenced in the Bible, but also from other spiritual traditions. I am sure one could really examine what is being claimed closely. These folks were not LDS but, they fully accepted Moroni as a real angel, and thought Joseph was a powerful medium.
Enki, interesting stuff. Thanks for providing here.
First, my earlier comment was on the historical notion that perhaps a number of the American Indians were descendants of the ancient immigrants. It is perhaps well off base, but at first glance, there seems something inconsistent with the LDS claim.
Second, I find it interesting the Spiritist Church as you describe takes many things from the Bible and asserts its own meaning, too. I looked it up very quickly and found that it began in the 1840’s. Interesting timing compared to the LDS.
I find it interesting that the LDS holds, in a religious sense, the Constitution in such a high regard. It does make you wonder what other nations think of that.
MJP asked
As a member of “other nations”, I’d like to offer my 2 cents (Australian currency, BTW).But, however you read my thoughts, please know that I mean America and all her citizens well.
My impression is that the US constitution is definitely a product of an 18th Century reaction against the (perceived) authoritarian European style of Government. In my opinion, the quality of life in the US has less to do with the system of government than the quality of people who implement it. The greatest benefit of a democracy is that you can get rid of the people who administer government badly.
As far as elevating the US Constitution to a divine prerogative, I am completely baffled. Its good, but not that good.
When I lived in Hong Kong I heard a joke about a Chinese man and and New Yorker at a bar. The Chinese man asked the New Yorker where he came from. The New Yorker boasted “I come from the greatest City in the greatest Country in the world”. The Chinese man replied “That’s funny; you don’t look like you come from Beijing”.
Back on topic – when I read Joseph Smith’s Wentworth Letter (Articles of Faith), my reaction was that it had American patriotism stamped all over it. Obviously, if you want to promote a new religion in North America, you wrap it up in the American Flag. Heck, you can even appeal to the prevailing Christian traditions by talking about God and Jesus and stuff.
I’ve written this before here; Mormonism is the quintissential religion of 19th Century North America. From its mythology to the expression of its values, its America through and through. Article 10, for example, is a real hoot, and Article 11 plays to the American ideal of freedom of conscience.