Why are you trying to earn grace?

This entry was posted in Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

125 Responses to Why are you trying to earn grace?

  1. grindael says:

    I wanted to share my beautiful day with you. Six people have expressed to me today, the fact that they are leaving Mormonism, and embracing Biblical truth. A family of four and two individuals. The family and one individual have already found Bible based home churches. One is investigating congregations near him, via the net. Mormon Coffee has played a vital part in these conversions. One gentleman has printed out numerous pages of MC for reference, as part of his quest for truth. I have asked them to drop a note to the posters at MC when/if they feel comfortable.
    Your posts and prayers matter. YOU ARE CHANGING LIVES AND SAVING SOULS. -posted today by bfwjr

  2. grindael says:

    I so love it when Mormons ‘see the light’ like the above example given by bfwjr. It even makes putting up with Janet seem worthwhile. 🙂

  3. grindael says:

    I only spin the stories that Mormon Leaders have told and folks, you can’t beat Smith’s men in the moon story as a true whopper! Almost as big as the one about the first vision … almost. Maybe Brigham Youngs inhabitants of the Sun was bigger… he was always trying to stay even with Smith … a whopping whole lot. Ah, Janet, this has been fun, but gotta go, but I’ll be back later … count on it!

  4. Janet says:

    I’m sure of that, along with your 3 to 4 pages of spin. Suggestion, shorten them somewhat, I find them overwhelming so I skip through as I speed read to points of interest and try to leave the usual talking points to others who might be more gullible.


  5. Rick B says:

    Janet said

    Problematic, the questions are quiet often very juvenile, or very dated talking points that have seen better days when information was hard to come by.

    The questions you are dodging, that I asked are things about what Jesus said or did, or did not do. Or what Paul said or did, or did not do.

    I guess you would find those to be problems since you avoid them and it’s truth, and your clearly not seeking that.

    Janet said

    What I actually stated, The first step in spinning a story is to ignore any information that undermines your position.

    I suspect people here that you accuse of doing this learned it by watching you. There not doing this, but you are. Rick b

  6. Janet says:

    Rick, I did not know I gave a position? I just did not answer your question, big difference.


  7. Rick B says:

    Nice of you to admit you are not answering questions. Seems a rare thing when your being honest. But as I keep saying, how can you answer a question or reply to what Jesus said when you teach something different and try and make your teachings the same as His? Rick b

  8. Janet says:

    Question, have you answered every question ever put to you? If so I applaud you.

    Why would I dare to answer a question I don’t feel comfortable answering and what I may or may not say could contradict the teaching of my Church. So one must be careful to only say what they personally believe or have confirmed to them. I’m still a student of the Gospel and will continue to learn more light and knowledge, I might even discard old concepts and replace them with new thoughts as I progress and learn even more daily. You stated I’m a liar, amazing discernment, Chuckle.


  9. Rick B says:

    Janet said

    I don’t feel comfortable answering

    You could be honest and say that from the start instead of ignoring it. And I try my best to answer every question ever asked of me even if the answer is, I dont know. But since I already knew you were not comfortable answering the question, that tells me it is hitting close to home and exposing your church and teachings as another gospel as the Bible says. Rick b

  10. Janet says:

    I don’t like to use, “I don’t know”. That does not make me a liar though, but if someone wants to accuse me of lying that is fine, since it is I that has to look at my own reflection, and I that has to answer for my mistakes. Pointing them out by others has always seemed a defensive move, something that is clearly not right in the life of the accuser usually.


  11. grindael says:


    I don’t post for you, so your suggestions are meaningless. When I did post shorter, you accused me of using ‘snippets’. With you, NOTHING would satisfy, so go ahead and ‘skip over’ the relevant material and make your uninformed comments.

    Those that read, comprehend, and understand have no problems with my posts. That it is working, is well attested to. Your frantic desire for me to limit my content makes me want to continue to do EXACTLY what I have been doing. So please, stop wasting your time trying to derail me, and use it for a better purpose.

    Try grammar and spelling. You are in sore need of those skills. In fact, you remind me of one hanksaint who had the same problems. Perhaps you are related?

  12. On 18th April, Jacob5 asked

    What is it that helps you determine your belief in Christ? I honestly want to know.

    mobaby posted a response earlier, that I readily identify with, but for me there are two things, faith and history (evidence).

    The good news about the history/evidence side of it is that there is a compelling case for Christianity. For example, there is a compelling case that there was a real person behind the story of Jesus, that his life unfolded as described in the canonical Gospels, that his followers believed he rose from the dead and they worshipped him as if he were the One God, and that this record has been reliably transmitted to us through the Bible.

    Objectively, I can’t argue the case that the accounts have been transmitted flawlessly, but I can argue that they have been transmitted reliably and that the witness of the NT tells us what the first Christians saw as being important. The inference is that if we wish to follow them, then we need to adjust our agenda/priorities to match theirs.

    Why this is good news, is that I don’t have to persuade myself that it’s true; all I need to do is allow the evidence to speak for itself.

    However, the history/evidence only goes so far. What it can do is put Jesus into his “native” environment so that we can understand the force of his message. It allows us to build a reliable picture of what the first Christians believed. But there’s a limit. The history/evidence compels me to believe that there was a person called Jesus and that he did die on a cross, but it does not tell me that he died for me. Nor does it tell me that Christianity should be the narrative from which I derive my self-identity. That’s where faith kicks in.

    This opic is explored by the current Christianity Today article at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/april/15.22.html, and the responses from three theologians.


  13. …ctd…

    I particularly like the conclusion of N T Wright

    …history cannot compel faith. But it is very good at clearing away the smoke screens behind which unfaith often hides. History and faith are, respectively, the left and right feet of Christianity. Modernism hops, now on this foot (skeptical “historiography”), now on that (unhistorical “faith”). It’s tiring, dangerous, and unnecessary.

    (Emphasis mine, see http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/april/16.27.html)

    Perhaps the intersection of these two dimensions is demonstrated by my firm conviction that the Gospel of Jesus (as opposed to some other “gospel”) brings life. I see this in history, and I see this in my life and in the lives of the people who allow themselves to be touched by this Gospel.

    Richard Dawkins, I understand, believes that human beings invent “faith” to fill in the gaps of our “scientific” knowledge. But what he’s talking about isn’t “faith” as I see it. Allow me to illustrate.

    A mate of mine from Church has set out to cycle around Australia to raise money for cancer research. Mikey’s a top bloke and his blog is worth a read here http://cyclearoundaustralia.com/. I see his journey as a venture of faith. What I mean is, he set out without the certainty that he will finish, and with the belief that some good will come of it. He’s not trying to fill in gaps in his understanding of the world, contra Dawkins, and the best word that I can find to describe the thing that drives him, despite the uncertainty of the outcomes of his venture, is faith. Faith is what transforms his belief into action.

    I think we can consider faith in Christ in the same way. The difference is that we put our trust in Him to deliver, not our own pedal-power. So, when God declares us to be justified freely in Christ, we believe Him, and we don’t contradict Him by trying to work our (perceived) worthiness into the equation.


  14. …ctd…

    Further, when Christ sets the example by being the servant of all, who sacrificed himself for all, we have the faith to follow his example, knowing that God will raise us from the dead. I find it marvelously liberating to find that I am no longer compelled to protect my self-interests. My self-interest, indeed my whole self, is guarded by God Himself, and He LOVES me

    For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    (Romans 8:38-39)

    I know that many people will claim Christ as their own. In this context, my concern is not that there is a “Christ figure” in your life story, but what kind of Christ he is. I am only interested in the Christ of scripture, because it was only to Him that the Name above all Names was given (Phil 2:9). No other Christ died for me, and no other Christ is worthy of my eternal praise, adoration and worship (see Rev 5:9-14).

  15. Rick B says:

    I was sent an email by a poster here, this person said that a few of the LDS that were booted off for their actions have come back under false names, at least one was busted for that. I really believe we need to stop handling LDS or any one that acts like that with kid gloves. I think the mods should post their names and show evidence of LDS out right lying and acting like this.

    I say this because they claim they are so holy they are above this kind of action while claiming us Christians are resorting to lies and misleading people. Just a thought.

    Janet said

    I don’t like to use, “I don’t know”. That does not make me a liar though,

    Not knowing an answer to a question does not make you a liar, But saying the Bible says something, or Saying Jesus said something when He or the Bible does not say it, then being shown what the scriptures do say, and then you still teach your false belief does make you a liar.

    Also would it be better to say, I dont know, or dodge the question and make it look like your dodging, it’s your choice, But I know the truth, you cannot handle the truth so you refuse to answer it because it would expose your belief as the false teaching it really is. Rick b

  16. Janet says:

    Amazing that you go from false posters, then directly to me. The Mods have already warned poster here to give this a rest since there is no evidence to support your accusations.

    Calling someone a liar is a serious witness against that person, and one should be aware of what the Scriptures state of such accusations. Noted, you state I’m a liar. That is your choice of words and your accusation, I cannot change how you feel, it is really between you and your maker when judgement day comes.


  17. Rick B says:

    Janet, I have seen people say about other people, your a liar, I’m saying this as an in general thing. So you do not mis understand me, I’m saying other people have accused people in general of lying, but they simply leave it at saying, so and so is a liar. Then they are called to give an account of why they are saying what they said.

    Me on the other hand, I stated why I feel you are lying, I did not simply say you were with out evidence.

    Then why is is People in the Bible can say others are lying or teaching false Doctrine and yet I cannot? If Jesus said it or the apostles said or did it I should be able to also. Sadly I would get harsh treatment even from Believers if I did what Paul did and called down blindness upon teachers for teaching false doctrine. Yet Paul said it and did it. Rick b

  18. setfree says:

    “Janet” said: “…there is no evidence to support your accusations.” I disagree. I think there are at least a few pieces of evidence to support this. One of which is that both Hanksaint/Richard and Janet mistake the word “quiet” for “quite”.

    Joe Smith, his Book of Mormon writers all (but one) overuse the phrase “it came to pass”. It’s these little idiosyncrasies that help identify the responsible person, don’t you think?

    Martin … well said. 😀

  19. setfree says:

    piece of evidence number 2. go to this link, use the edit/find tool to search for “chuckle” and “quiet” and/or “Hanksaint”


    notice how similar these two writers sound?
    there is definitely evidence.

  20. mobaby says:

    Martin – Great post – I agree, the historical reality of Jesus is vital. There are 2 ways that this is true:

    1) Christianity is a historical faith/the Bible is a real historical document and holds up as real

    2) My salvation was purchased by Christ outside of myself in a real time and place. It’s not based on an emotional internal feeling, but instead is a real event that occurred completely apart from me. Jesus crucifixion for my sin is a real event – I place my faith completely in something outside of myself.

  21. grindael says:

    What did Huntington make a mistake on? That it was Smith Sr. who gave him the blessing…when it really was his father that did. But Smith Sr. was there, PRESIDING OVER THE MEETING. This blessing took place December 7, 1836 at the home of William Huntington. The meeting was appointed and conducted by Joseph Smith, Sr. It lasted the entire day, with Orson Pratt recording the blessings the best he could and “afterwards filled up from memory of all present that which he could not catch from the Patriarch’s lips.’

    Relevant excerpts from the Blessing:

    “I lay my hands on thee & bless thee with a father’s blessing …. thou shalt be called to preach the gospel to this generation …. before thou art twenty one thou wilt be called to preach the fullness of the gospel, thou shalt have power with God even to translate thyself to Heaven, & preach to the inhabitants of the moon or planets, if it shall be expedient…”

    Here we have a blessing given in the presence of the Presiding Patriarch, and a member of the Quorum of the 12, the Huntington Family & relatives. The Patriarchal blessing books in the LDS archives are not open for research, so it is impossible to tell if this was common at this time.

    So what facts did Huntington get wrong? Very little. Plus, he had the blessing to carry around with him for years to remind him of the event and keep fresh in his mind the statements that Smith made. Any person would take a keen interest if they were blessed to go to the moon and meet the ‘moonmen’. Young & Hyrum Smith both preached the moon was inhabited to LARGE CONGREGATIONS of Mormons. As for DOCTRINE, it says this in the Book of Moses:

    “And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.”

  22. grindael says:

    I can’t answer why Smith, his brother and Young taught the moon was inhabited, but they did. But Smith was always bragging about how great a prophet he was and how much knowledge he had. Take this observation by Josiah Quincy of Smith describing himself as he showed Quincy his Nauvoo Temple:

    “Is not here one greater than Solomon, who built a Temple with the treasures of his father David and with the assistance of Huram, King of Tyre? Joseph Smith has built his temple with no one to aid him in the work.”

    But perhaps, this comment by Quincy describes Smith and his followers best, as they believed whatever fantasies fell from the lips of their self proclaimed prophet:

    “If the blasphemous assumptions of Smith seemed like the ravings of a lunatic, he had, at least brought them to a market where “all the people were as mad as he.”

  23. mobaby said

    I place my faith completely in something outside of myself.

    Amen. Totally!

    After all, how good is your (or my) record at defeating death? I bet that if we were to try, we wouldn’t be the first or the last to do so, but I can guarantee the outcome.

  24. grindael quoted Joseph Smith

    Is not here one greater than Solomon, who built a Temple with the treasures of his father David and with the assistance of Huram, King of Tyre? Joseph Smith has built his temple with no one to aid him in the work.

    Hearing the words that fell from Joseph’s lips, I never fail to be utterly amazed by him.


    Was there absolutely no acknowledgement or recognition from him of the work and effort put into the venture by his associates? Of course not! He did it all by himself, with “no one to aid him in the work”. Raised every dollar and laid every brick by his own hands!

    It must have made all the other Mormons, who had sacrificed so much in the name of their movement, feel thoroughly humiliated.

    But wait! It can’t have been the prophet’s fault. This feeling of humiliation must have been because of the sin in their own hearts. Time to repent, brothers, for thinking bad thoughts about the prophet!

    What a heap of cow-custard!

  25. setfree says:

    cow custard! haha, Martin, that made me laugh.

    I wonder if that quote about Hyrum isn’t some reference to Joe’s belief in the Hyrum Abiff story.
    Anybody up on that? Isn’t it just a reworked Egyptian-god story?

    “Janet”, no comment on the evidence?

Leave a Reply