The Comfort of Knowing God Was a Sinner

Kathryn, a local Mormon, wrote to me on November 7:

“We believe that [God] was in our same situations. I don’t want someone judging me, until they have walked in my shoes. I am sure God has sinned. How else would he know and understand that he didn’t want his children to feel that pain. The difference between God and I, is that he took the steps to fix his wrongs. He offers the same to us.”

To people who think this way:┬áDo you believe you can say Jesus was also in your shoes (enough to be your friend, sympathizer, Lord, and Savior), since he never was a sinner? We are taught in Hebrews 4:15, “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.”

The above Mormon logic also seems to  prevent the Mormon Jesus from becoming a Heavenly Father (like ours) someday over his own set of literally begotten spirit children. The same accusation that the Mormon leveled against the sinless God is what spirit children would be able to accuse Jesus of.

Neighbors: Run very, very far away from any Church which so comfortably fosters and tolerates this kind of thinking.

As always, check out GodNeverSinned.com.

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119 Responses to The Comfort of Knowing God Was a Sinner

  1. Kathryn might have the intellectual honesty to see where the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression ultimately leads (to a 'god' who was once a sinful man, just like us). However, this doctrine is absolutely and unequivocally incompatible with the kind of God described in the Bible.

    And what's the basis for this "revelation"? It seems like it's true because it's "comforting".

    Bulldust!

    (Actually, the words going through my head when I read this garbage are unrepeatable)

    What's "comforting" about the idea that this 'god' managed to throw off his sin because he tried really, really, really hard. What does he offer us? Well, if we try really, really, really hard, we might just be able to throw off our sin too. In other words, this 'god' offers us a big fat zero. All he can do is call to us from the other bank, but there's nothing he can do to carry us across the river.

    Just to recap – let's take a quick survey of the Bible to see who does the redeeming. Do we redeem ourselves by working really, really hard; or is it something that God does?

    I prayed to the LORD and said, “Sovereign LORD, do not destroy your people, your own inheritance that you redeemed by your great power and brought out of Egypt with a mighty hand.

    (Deut 9:26) Us – 0, God – 1

    That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

    (Deut 13:5) Us – 0, God – 2

    Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

    (Deut 15:15) Us – 0, God – 3

    Accept this atonement for your people Israel, whom you have redeemed, LORD, and do not hold your people guilty of the blood of an innocent person.

    (Deut 21:8) Us – 0, God – 4

    Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you from there. That is why I command you to do this.</bockquote>(Deut 24:18) Us – 0, God – 5

    And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?

    (2 Sam 7:23 and 1 Chron 17:21) Us – 0, God – 7

    Remember the nation you purchased long ago, the people of your inheritance, whom you redeemed— Mount Zion, where you dwelt.

    (Psalm 74:2) Us – 0, God – 8

    But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine

    (Isa 43:1) Us – 0, God – 9.

    ..and Isaiah 29:22, Isaiah 44:23, Isaiah 52:3, Isaiah 52:9, Luke 1:68, Galatians 3:13.

    Us – 0, God – 15.

    Get the picture yet? We score a big fat zero, which is why we need God to save us. We don't save ourselves, God saves us. If we could save ourselves, we would have done so by now.

  2. Jeff says:

    I don't want a God that has to "self-experience" something before knowing every single thing about it. Such a lowly and weak view of God does not shed an Almighty light upon Kathryn's redeemer.

  3. f_melo says:

    That´s another example of how mormons believe God is not all-knowing. Imagine the absurdity of that – to say the only way God, the creator of all things, can understand us is to become one of us and sin just like we do.

    Of Course Jesus was born in the flesh and submitted Himself to the same pain, needs and temptations we have to deal with, but not because He needed to learn how it is like – it was actually to live for us the perfect life God requires, and perform the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.

    Also, like Martin explains – God is the one who redeems us, because of His grace. If it was just a matter of doing the best we can, honestly, there would be no need for Jesus to die at all.

  4. f_melo says:

    Sorry for repeating this, but what Kathryn said reminds me of that question: "Who came first, god or men?"
    If man becomes god by obeying a set of laws that precede him, it means the laws were there first and whatever established those laws, or whoever enforces them is the actual supreme creator god – specially if you take into consideration that mormon gods just organize stuff that already exists.

    So without even knowing it, she´s somewhat promoting the existence of an impersonal God, that shares its power with men and glorifies them so that they can freely shape the universe the way they want it – and in that process it is ok, or, it is comforting to know that those men could have messed up as bad as we have, and yet were able to work things out to receive that "glory" and "power" of living eternally as gods, procreating for eternity.

    You guys that are better at debating, if you could please point out the holes/fallacies of this argument, i would appreciate it.

  5. wyomingwilly says:

    I think Martin summed it up well by saying that the Mormon doctrine of eternal propgression
    leads to the type of belief that Kathryn admits to. Once you believe that Almighty God is only
    a more refined version of every human male walking around today, than why not believe
    He messed up at one time, burglary?, adultery? lying? Is this the Being described in
    scripture ? To be sure, it's not Church doctrine, but it's undoubtedly personal doctrine
    to many more LDS than we would imagine, and who see it has the logical outgrowth of
    the false doctrine of eternal progression .

  6. setfreebyJC says:

    "We believe that [God] was in our same situations. I don't want someone judging me, until they have walked in my shoes"

    Too bad this gal doesn't understand that there is only one God named YHWH, and that He did, in fact, walk in our shoes… under the name "YHWH becomes salvation"

  7. Brian says:

    Dear Aaron,

    What an interesting article. First, I want to say, God bless Kathryn.

    I’d like to look at three items Kathryn wrote of.

    1. “I am sure God has sinned.”

    What makes you sure, Kathryn? I would ask, “Did Jesus also sin?” If he did, why does the Bible say he did not? If he did not, then was God unable to do something that Jesus did? If God is actually sinless, and Jesus never sinned, is Jesus God? Just as he claimed to be?

    2. “How else would he know and understand that he didn’t want his children to feel that pain.”

    He knows because he knows everything. He is not like us created beings who need to learn things. While sin certainly causes pain, it does something far worse: it separates us from God. A separation which, sadly for many, will last for eternity.

    3. “The difference between God and I, is that he took the steps to fix his wrongs.”

    He took steps to fix his wrongs? Actually, Kathryn, he took steps to fix your wrongs. On a cross. He was judged for your wrongs already. Wrongs which include a heartbreakingly distorted view of God.

  8. RalphNWatts says:

    While the way our doctrine is portrayed and taught by both LDS and non-LDS alike, there is the fact that it can be interpreted that our Heavenly Father did sin when He lived on His earth, like we do. I acknowledge that. As far as I believe in this matter – that’s personal; and is it true – that’s irrelevant to our salvation to the extent that we should be focussing on the here and now – which is Our Heavenly Father can deliver what He has promised to us – eternal life and immortality. And He can do this why – because He is God and He has created an infallible plan for this purpose.

    We do not know what He did on His planet – whether He was exactly like us, or if He was the Saviour for His planet like Jesus is for ours, or if there was a different plan/system on His planet compared to ours. All we can really glean as definite from our doctrine is that He had a mortal, physical existence on a planet, just as we have now (including Jesus) before He created this world. That is relevant to our salvation.

    The understanding of this doctrine is exactly like the understanding of the doctrine of saved by faith alone despite works. This can be interpreted as meaning (which many Christians do understand it to mean) that one can do whatever they like once professing a belief in Jesus. Martin Luther taught this as I have shown on many occasion as he believed that once saved, always saved despite ones’ works. But as discussed on this forum, most here do not believe that this is true, but that there is a change in ones’ life style once they believe.

    So even though this doctrine can be interpreted to mean that Heavenly Father could have been a sinner, and even though some LDS members may believe in this manner, does not necessarily make it so.

  9. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    You said – ”That´s another example of how mormons believe God is not all-knowing. Imagine the absurdity of that – to say the only way God, the creator of all things, can understand us is to become one of us and sin just like we do.

    Of Course Jesus was born in the flesh and submitted Himself to the same pain, needs and temptations we have to deal with, but not because He needed to learn how it is like – it was actually to live for us the perfect life God requires, and perform the ultimate sacrifice for all mankind.”

    We find this in the Bible

    Hebrews 2:16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. (NIV)

    This says that BECAUSE He was tempted He can now succour us.

    Hebrews 4: 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (NIV)

    This says that BECAUSE He was tempted in everyway, just as we are, He can empathise with our weaknesses and give us mercy and grace in our time of need.

    These also teach that Jesus suffered so that He can show mercy towards us and understand us enough to succour/help us. It teaches that although He was tempted He still remained sinless. This answers Aaron’s question – Jesus was tempted and He suffered for our sins. He felt the siren song of temptation and from this understood our weaknesses. He felt the pain and anguish for sins that He never committed, but He felt them just the same. So yes, He can be sinless, as Hebrews 4 states, but He can understand us and sympathise with us as He has felt that pain and suffering and anguish because He took it on Himself from us, as both Hebrews 2 and 4 state.

  10. Brian says:

    Very fine post, Martin.

    "If we could save ourselves, we would have done so by now."

    Yes. And if we could save ourselves, then Jesus died for no reason (Galatians 2:21).

  11. f_melo says:

    "So even though this doctrine can be interpreted to mean that Heavenly Father could have been a sinner, and even though some LDS members may believe in this manner, does not necessarily make it so."

    Well, if Elohim hasn´t sinned, then, if you make it to godhood, your children will definitely be worshiping a god who sinned.
    That would be Nephi´s children´s case as well as the case of everyone else not children of the perfect jesus.

  12. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    So you don't believe God or Jesus when they say they will remove your sins? Although they are scarlett they will be white as snow, to paraphrase a scripture. Another is that God will remember them no more. Now if God does not remember them and they have been wiped clean, then it will be as if you never committed them at all. So when it comes down to it, all that enter the CK and receive their inheritance from our Father, they will be counted as sinless and perfect.

  13. falcon says:

    Ralph,
    It's really difficult for me to read what you write without replying in a way that will get me permanently banned from this site by the moderators. I am showing incredible restraint out of pity for you since I know you are totally under the influence of a spirit of delusion. What you and your church propose isn't twisted logic, it's just plain blasphemy. I could appeal to you on the basis of the scriptures but it will have no effect. Until God's Holy Spirit moves on you to remove this curse you are under, there is no reasoning (with you) and no hope for your soul.
    You do not know God. My heart aches!

  14. f_melo says:

    "This says that BECAUSE He was tempted He can now succour us. "

    If that´s the case, then He wasn´t able to help anyone before being born as a human being?

    Now, in verse 18, the author(Paul) makes the case that Jesus suffered because of temptation is what enables Him to help those who are tempted. I´d really have to get my Strong´s concordance, read it, do some research on it to really be sure that is the case.

    I think it has more to do with the empathy Hebrews 4 is talking about, not that God had to go through that stuff to know how it´s like, and only then He would gain the necessary experience to actually help us. For me, Paul is trying to use that as a point to help people understand that Christ was fully man, and because of that He can relate to us, and help us overcome temptation considering that He Himself overcame it perfectly.

    I honestly think It´s impossible that God couldn´t rescue people from temptation prior to Jesus being born, somehow as i pointed out that would mean God isn´t all-knowing. I´ll do more study on it though.

  15. falcon says:

    Who does such a doctrine of the Mormon god progression serve? Who wants God to be demeaned and blasphemed? That's an easy question to answer and so we must ask, "By what spirit is Mormonism led?" The Bible tells us that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light so Satan isn't really too concerned with the Mormon emphasis on living the Word of Wisdom. See that's the thing Mormons don't see. That is, that they have a Satanic religion clothed in what appears to be a white robe of righteousness. What does Satan care if Mormons don't drink coffee, smoke and imbibe in cola drinks or chew snuff. That's an easy trade off when he can get them to declare god a sinful man. What fools these people are.
    I have learned a lot about the psychology of cult members and the picture that emerges is pretty ugly. Now stop and consider how twisted their thinking is and in their minds, it's all logical. That to me is what this discussion is all about. It makes you wonder how people can be seduced into a manner of thinking that in a religious sense, is pathological in nature.

  16. f_melo says:

    Now, from your perspective you´re probably thinking that scripture is saying that because Jesus didn´t have a physical body, and he had to receive his body to actually understand what it is like. Yet, that doesn´t make any sense because Elohim had a body already and he wouldn´t have any problems relating to us, and could easily help anyone…

    Now the problem is – do you believe that to be God one has to be all-knowing? If your answer is yes, then Jesus wasn´t god before He was born. That being the case, how could he have been worshipped by the people of Israel as Jehovah if he wasn´t even a god?

  17. falcon says:

    Mormons wonder why Christians shun them when they (Mormons) desire to be included in the Christian family. Yea, this is real difficult to figure out. Mormons believe in many gods, that men can become gods and that their current main god was a man who was a sinner and just add in that Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers. Now the only way I can keep from blowing my top regarding this is to realize that Mormons are not talking about Christianity. They're talking about their own religious system that has its own god, Jesus, Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost and a system of salvation that bears no resemblance to Christianity. Now throw in Mormon history of polygamy and occult practices and it makes one wonder why Mormons would even think that Christians would want anything to do with them.
    The Bible talks clearly about folks like this and says that eventually God just gives them over to their harden hearts. Does that mean that God gives-up on them? I don't know but it would seem that Mormons have given up on God.

  18. wyomingwilly says:

    Ralph, you said, "….that's irrelevant to our salvation to the extent that we should be focussing on
    the here and now…." Ralph, your reasoning is amazing ! " irrelevant " to your our salvation ?
    What's more important than to worship the one and only true God ? He being the only g-o-d who
    can rightly give salvation. Expecting to receive salvation from a mere man who is said to be
    "exalted" now , is to be short-changed. In fact, even some of your leaders have warned that
    to be wrong on a fundamental doctrine is to put your spiritual life in danger. Ralph, I find it
    ironic that you would attempt to downplay a doctrine which is clearly inferred by your belief in
    " eternal progression " , when you have actually admitted here last year that you hope to become
    an Almighty God and be worshipped as such one day. May you come to know the True God soon.

  19. RalphNWatts says:

    fmelo,

    Do you believe that to be God one has to be all knowing? So do you believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ‘God’? If so, then how do you interpret Matt 24:36 when Jesus taught ”But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”?

    But my Father ONLY. He didn’t say ‘God – as in Trinity’; He didn’t say The Father, Son and Holy Spirit; He said The Father ONLY. So there was up to one point in time, a time when both Jesus and the Holy Spirit did not know one thing but Heavenly Father did. That means that up to at least that point in time Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not omnipotent.

    You cannot say that Jesus was talking about while He was ‘fully man’ and not His ‘fully God’ side (as someone tried to tell me once before), as the verse states no one in heaven knows, and it also states none but the Father, and Jesus is not the Father; plus this totally misses the Holy Spirit and an explanation as to why He doesn’t know.

    If you want to interpret it like someone else I have asked by saying that as a Trinity they contain all knowledge, then you need to admit that each one of them does not have to be omnipotent to be ‘God’ as described in the creeds, but that it’s a compilation of them together that makes ‘God’ omnipotent. Then that begs the question, what about the other attributes (omnipresence, omnipotence), are they a compilation (ie no one needs to fully omnipotent/omnipresent but together they are), or are each member of the Trinity the same in stature?

    As far as my belief goes, Heavenly Father is the only one that is omnipotent and omniscient, Jesus was given/entrusted with all power and authority from Heavenly Father and thus was a God that was omnipotent but not omniscient. What exactly He did not know were things like what it was like to be mortal and have a physical body; when the Second Coming will be. What else, I do not have a clue. May be He knew everything else. But He was exalted and powerful enough to be ‘classed’/called a God.

  20. RalphNWatts says:

    Falcon,

    ”I am showing incredible restraint out of pity for you since I know you are totally under the influence of a spirit of delusion. What you and your church propose isn't twisted logic, it's just plain blasphemy.”

    Really, we have gone over this a couple of times. You say what I believe is blasphemy because it does not concur with what you believe. On the other side, your beliefs about God are blasphemy from my point of view. I know that what I have is true and correct and follows God’s word to us from the scriptures – including the Bible. You know that what you have is true and correct from the Bible. So that leaves us with a Mexican stand-off. One that will not be fully answered until the Day of Judgment when God will tell us Himself who is right and can enter His presence for eternity. Either way we must choose a side and follow the dictates of our conscience and hope and pray that we have it right.

    And you are right, you can appeal to scripture all you want, just like I can show you scriptures all I want, it will do very little except show that we both know nothing about scripture :-).

    Yes I can also say you do not know God. My heart aches!

  21. f_melo says:

    You´re just changing the subject now.

    Yes, God removes sins, but that has nothing to do with what we´ve been talking about or with what Aaron wrote.
    That doesn´t change the fact the in your theology there´ll be maybe rapists who repent and become almighty gods, worshiped by their spiritual children. Do gods conceal their sins, if not, do they praise their own respective messias that sacrificed themselves to remove it for them?

  22. f_melo says:

    "I know that what I have is true and correct and follows God’s word to us from the scriptures – including the Bible"

    Except for the fact mormons are hardly able to actually demonstrate that without taking scriptures out of context or cherry picking some obscure verses here or there.

    "I know that what I have is true and correct and follows God’s word to us from the scriptures"

    Not really – your foundation is on Joseph Smith´s interpretation of the Bible, that´s where you stand – and he´s be proven over and over again to be a charlatan – the kinderhook plates, the Greek Psaltery, the Egyptian papiry – all proved that Joseph didn´t have any gift of translation whatsoever… besides all the nonsense about the Urim and Thumim or seer stone in a hat.

    I wonder if someone else came up to you preaching that kind of stuff, if you´d take that person seriously… that´s why i´m sure the church has to leave much truth that isn´t "useful" out, as Packer would put it.

    "Yes I can also say you do not know God."

    I´ll go with Falcon, because i know i´ll never hear him singing "Praise to the Man". There´s no man-worshiping in true Christianity, it´s not a hard to figure that out, even though Satan has successfully blinded many people through mysticism and pseudo spiritual experiences.

  23. f_melo says:

    "If so, then how do you interpret Matt 24:36"

    Man, that´s pretty silly – even i as a young Christian know that. `Phillipians 2:6-8

    "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

    That scripture is clearly showing that Christ was subject to God´s will, and if He didn´t know that specific information was not because He wasn´t all-knowing God, but that, in that state, The Father withheld it from Him according to His own purposes. Now Jesus knows exactly the time He´s going to come back, no question about it!

    I believe God has to be all-knowing, otherwise a man could eventually find God´s blind spot and hide from Him and His judgement. Can you imagine a man being capable of deceiving God, because God isn´t all-knowing? Ridiculous.

  24. f_melo says:

    "As far as my belief goes, Heavenly Father is the only one that is omnipotent and omniscient, Jesus was given/entrusted with all power and authority from Heavenly Father and thus was a God that was omnipotent but not omniscient."

    You´re really arbitrary with the qualifications for godhood. The Holy Spirit is considered a God even though He doesn´t have a body of flesh and bones… Jesus was a God as a Spirit, yet He´s not all-knowing even now…

    I mean, what are the characteristics of a God? Can you change them arbitrarily like that? What scriptures can you point us to to substantiate any of those claims, or are you just making it up?

  25. GoodWill says:

    When we enter the CK, we will receive a new name. The old heaven and earth will pass away, to be remembered no more. As all those who are redeemed will be washed, cleansed and perfected, they may join the collective of the Gods, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three, acting as one. As all Gods share all things in common, there is but One God. Those found worthy, through the blood of the Lamb, will sit with Him on His throne, even as He sits upon His Father's throne. Jesus's wish and prayer, on the eve of His death, was that we would become one with Him and His Father even as He is one with His Father. No more, no less.

  26. falcon says:

    You're absolutely right Ralph, we do have a Mexican standoff but it's your own stubbornness that keeps you from coming to God. It's been demonstrated here countless times and in a variety of ways that Joseph Smith was a false prophet and a charleton of ill repute and still you cling to his false gospel. The deluding spirit of Mormonism has gotten a strong hold on you and you have no desire to be set free from its clutches.
    This is difficult to understand, but there are people who are demon possessed that don't want to give up their demons either.
    We might ask where Joseph Smith came up with his ideas. Mormons want to believe that Smith received his ideas through revelation. There is no support in the Scriptures or in the writings of the Church fathers that even hint at what Smith taught on the nature of God.
    Ralph you've made your choice and have decided to cast your fate with a false god and a false christ. Having accepted a false promise that you will become a god and join the pantheon of Mormon gods, you have made a bad deal with the devil. It gives you a good feeling now and separation from God for eternity.

  27. falcon says:

    There is something that all of us who deal with Mormons like Ralph need to remember and that is in reality we're not dealing with Ralph but we are dealing with the spiritual forces of darkness that keep these folks in bondage.
    For those who are new here, at one point in the past, I asked Ralph if he would kill or steal on command from the Mormon prophet. He said that yes he would indeed kill or steal if the Mormon prophet told him to do it.
    Now process that thought for a moment. If someone would be willing to commit murder or theft on command from his "prophet" what type of seducing spirit is that person oppressed and controlled by?
    So, again, we're not dealing with simply a thought process or emotional set with dedicated cult members. These folks are in total spiritual bondage to (spiritual) forces that are powerful and personally consuming. Logic won't free them from this bondage. Evidence won't free them from this bondage. In fact, the more they are exposed to the truth, the more entrenched to their false religious system they become.
    We often wonder why a person who is being physically, mentally or emotionally abused will stay with their abuser. It doesn't make sense to us. There's something in the dynamic of the relationship that "works" for the abuse victim in a way that those of us not so entangled can make sense of. The dynamics of spiritual abuse are very similar. For these folks there's a whole different definition of "normal". When someone is willing to kill or steal on command from a false prophet and this is considered "normal" in that culture, we wonder if such folks should be pitied or feared.
    Remember the errors in thinking that are operating here. One of those errors is to try to find some justification for the abnormal or aberrant belief. This is where misapplication of scripture comes in for the Mormon.
    It's a deep dark well of deceit that only the light of Jesus and the Gospel according to God can deliver a person from.

  28. Sarah says:

    Ralph, I find it interesting that you're focusing on the word "tempted" and interchanging it with "sinned."

    You quoted Hebrews 4:14 and bolded part of it, but you missed the most important part, which I have italicized, and underlined.

    Hebrews 4: 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areyet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (NIV)

    It's as plain as anything — Jesus, the Son of God — fully man and fully God — came down to walk among us like a servant. To live among us, to be tempted like us, and yet he did not sin.

  29. falcon says:

    There is no doubt that what we are dealing with here is all out spiritual warfare. Once Mormons decided to break away from God to form a god of their own liking and in effect make themselves gods, they not only got their thinking flipped but they took themselves out from under the covering of spiritual protection that faith in God provides. When a Mormon reads the Bible through the lens of Mormonism, the plain and simple truth of the Gospel message becomes obscured and twisted. And because Mormonism doesn't appear in the Bible, Mormons come-up with a tortured explanation that there was a conspiracy (to leave it out). Now that is not only twisted thinking but it smacks of real desperation.
    An example of spiritual warfare appears in Mark 5:10. Basically what happens is that Jesus comes upon a demonic. The key verse (10) is; "And he began to implore Him earnestly not to send them out of the country." We know that the "Him" is Jesus, but who is the "he"? Here's what "Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary" says about Mark 5:1-20.
    "Some openly wilful sinners are like this madman. The commands of the law are as chains and fetters to restrain sinners from their wicked courses; but they break those bands in sunder, and it is an evidence of the power of the devil in them. A legion of solders consisted of six thousand men, or more. What multitudes of fallen spirits there must be, and all enemies to God and man, when here was a legion in one poor wretched creature! Many there are that rise up against us. We are not a match for our spiritual enemies, in our own strength; but in the Lord, and in the power of his might, we shall be able to stand against them, though there are legions of them. When the vilest transgressor is delivered by the power of Jesus from the bondage of Satan, he will gladly sit at the feet of his Deliverer, and hear his word, who delivers the wretched slaves of Satan, and numbers them among his saints and servants. When the people found that their swine were lost, they had a dislike to Christ. Long-suffering and mercy may be seen, even in the corrections by which men lose their property while their lives are saved, and warning given them to seek the salvation of their souls. The man joyfully proclaimed what great things Jesus had done for him. All men marveled, but few followed him. Many who cannot but wonder at the works of Christ, yet do not, as they ought, wonder after him.
    Now can anyone be in any more bondage to Satan then in rejecting God and creating a scenario in which sinful men, largely through their own efforts become gods and join a pantheon of gods? The confused thinking of Mormonism which causes them to reject the Bible as given and follow a false prophet who saw fit to rewrite the Bible, displays what power Satan has over those who reject God.

  30. Violet says:

    falcon. Be careful. My husband and my five year old nephew were in a canoe and rowing down the river. My nephew, Michael, had on a large Chinese hat to block the sun. It was adorable. They were singing a Disney tune, something about 'Just around the river bend.' Adorable. Next thing you know, the two, a grown man and a five year old were arguing and discussing something about dinosaurs or something serious. Michael's mind could not be changed. His argument was, 'I know. I know.' Anything we said to Michael, he said, 'I know.' Jeff's blood pressure was going up, and my brother-in-law said, 'Jeff, he's five.' Ralph is not five, nor am I implying anything about Ralph's intelligence. What I am saying is this. Falcon, you are defending Christ. Sometimes this is bigger than us. Christ is bigger than us. Christ has a plan for Ralph. Maybe this is his spiritual journey and the 'I know' argument is upsetting you. This is your heart and soul and he is pushing your buttons. Christ is bigger than all of us, He has a plan, and if part of His plan is your beautiful defense of Him, I admit, I am the one benefiting. Mormons, I believe, are not only defending Joseph Smith, their religion, but also their loved ones, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, children. Ralph is a stand-up guy and I am sure of the highest moral principle. He is not ready yet to have his heart open. I have opened my heart to Mormonism, tried all of its principles, doctrines, history. I wanted to be perfect, do good works, but instead my journey ended with authentic biblical Christianity which I believe we should test all things for ourselves against the Bible. The Word of God is our final answer. Someone who believes the Bible is correct so far as it is translated correctly, has a different standard. Falcon. The argument I believe is unwinnable. You have written so many incredibly beautiful, heart and soul-filled blogs. Anyone can see you are pouring your soul in your work. We can't lead anyone to Christ who is not ready, or is 'shut-down'. My sister, dad and mother have no fear of God at all. I am sad, because they believe in their own judging, guilt-filled God and there is nothing I can do. My uncle has congestive heart failure, lives alone, and there is nothing I can do. I am just saying, Falcon, you must rest in Jesus. We are to rest in Jesus. You are sparring and you need to rest. For yourself. Jesus called the pharisees vipers. He was angry. Anger is good. Debate is good. But upsetting yourself to defend Christ, is not. Christ has a plan for Ralph. Maybe its not our plan, but Ralph is happy. I feel he is whistling walking in front of a train, we can yell and scream. But its God, who is working in his life. Maybe not the way, we want, in our time, and defending Mormonism, doesn't need defending. Its obvious. Its a false prophet. The bible is filled with warnings about false prophets. Ralph cannot believe the bible. Where do we go from there? You tried. We have to tell the Truth but God doesn't need defenders. He gave us His Word, we must follow Him and trust in Him, not ourselves, to save anyone.

  31. f_melo says:

    "As all Gods share all things in common, there is but One God"

    Who is the One God – is it the collective? If that´s the case we could easily worship Heavenly Grandfather, because He is part of the One God.

    The problem is – that´s not found in the Bible, you might as well worship Poseidon.

    " Those found worthy, through the blood of the Lamb, will sit with Him on His throne, even as He sits upon His Father's throne."

    When you say that about sitting on God´s throne, you´re saying that we´ll all be equal to God – yet that fails as many here have explained before, that our nature is different from God´s nature, that is, if you believe the Bible that says God is a Spirit, so, when the Bible talks about that, it is talking about our reward but it isn´t in any way referring to a change of nature.

    Isaiah 43:10
    " Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

    That´s in the KJV which mormons use…

    Now, that prayer Christ said you´re referring to, of course He wasn´t saying that literally – He wasn´t asking the Father to make them gods. It´s okay though, i know you´re not used to studying the Bible without church approved manuals.

  32. f_melo says:

    Question: Is Heavenly Mother part of the collective of the Gods? Can i worship Her without being rebuked?

  33. falcon says:

    Sure GoodWill good buddy. You're laying classic Mormonism on us and that's fine but it's not orthodox Christianity and it isn't true. I know that! You do a good job of mixing in a little Christian lingo here as a means of identification but the end result is total heresy and might I say, nonsense. The "all Gods share all things in common, there is but One God" is so Mormon double speak. There is not one Mormon god in fact the Mormon gods vary in their progress up the Mormon chain of command depending on their personal progress.
    And everyone is going to sit on the Mormon God's throne? There's a picture of the Mormon god that Joseph Smith included in his fantastic BoA translation which depicts the Mormon god as an Egyptian deity with his penis hanging out. You sure you want to sit on a throne with a "god" exposing himself?
    I can't even give you a decent grade for effort here in your attempts to make sense out of Mormon nonsense. But if it makes you feel good I guess you'll have to go with it. But I think you need to do a little more homework on your religion and try to apply something other than Mormon logic to your conclusions.

  34. Violet says:

    A lot of this back-and-forth brought me to read a blog by Aaron under Persecution Complex. Very entertaining, as well as enlightening on Aaron’s part. Sharing the truth and love: Inordinate Accusations of Hatred as a Means of Insulation
    Posted on October 3, 2008 by Aaron Shafovaloff
    http://blog.mrm.org/2008/10/in-the-insulating-val

  35. RalphNWatts says:

    I know of that answer but as I said – that does not answer why the Holy Spirit does/did not know up to that point in time. Remember the verse says no one knows except the Father.

  36. RalphNWatts says:

    Sarah,

    Please reread my last paragraph. I did mention that although He was tempted He was without sin. But He did take upon Himself our sins and with it the sufferring and anguish that we feel because of our sins. In this way with both being tempted and feeling our sufferring and anguish, He is able to succor us in our time of need as He can truely empathise with us.

  37. Sarah says:

    Ralph, can I ask you a serious question? You use the capital H in He and Him here when talking about Jesus. So do I, of course. But my question is this: if you believe that the Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are not one in the same, do you believe that Jesus is God or just the son of God?

    Also, I do apologize for missing that last paragraph. I had read it but had read it separately from the quoted scripture. Thanks for pointing it out to me!

  38. Brian says:

    Dear Ralph,

    Thanks for participating in this forum. And thanks for your candor.

    I see you have read some of Martin Luther's writings. That is great. Once, Martin Luther delivered a lecture series at the University of Wittenberg (in 1531). The series dealt with the book of Galatians. Here's a portion of what he wrote about Galatians 1:3. To me, it is profound and I wanted to share it with this forum:

    [1:3 Grace be to you, and peace, from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ.]

    <quote>"The article of justification must be sounded in our ears incessantly because the frailty of our flesh will not permit us to take hold of it perfectly and to believe it with all our heart. The greeting of the Apostle is refreshing. Grace remits sin, and peace quiets the conscience. Sin and conscience torment us, but Christ has overcome these fiends now and forever. Only Christians possess this victorious knowledge given from above. These two terms, grace and peace, constitute Christianity. Grace involves the remission of sins, peace, and a happy conscience. Sin is not canceled by lawful living, for no person is able to live up to the Law. The Law reveals guilt, fills the conscience with terror, and drives men to despair. Much less is sin taken away by man-invented endeavors. The fact is, the more a person seeks credit for himself by his own efforts, the deeper he goes into debt. Nothing can take away sin except the grace of God. In actual living, however, it is not so easy to persuade oneself that by grace alone, in opposition to every other means, we obtain the forgiveness of our sins and peace with God. The world brands this a pernicious doctrine. The world advances free will, the rational and natural approach of good works, as the means of obtaining the forgiveness of sin. But it is impossible to gain peace of conscience by the methods and means of the world. Experience proves this."</quote>

    This is an interesting quote, isn't it? Martin Luther had discovered that peace of conscience was impossible to find by the world's methods. He says that experience proves this.

    Did you know that Martin Luther had a huge amount of experience? Once, he prayed for six weeks. Practically without eating or sleeping. He was really trying the best he could. He would spend hours each day confessing his sins to a priest in his monastery, sometimes rushing back if he had forgotten something. (The priest dreaded his visits.) He was convinced his sins were serious and should be punished. Sometimes, he would be found in his cell unconscious in a pool of blood, having beaten himself with a whip. He felt his soul was not pure enough. So once he stood outside in the deep winter's snow naked, to purify himself.

    People whose hope of Heaven is themselves will often describe their hope as "I'm doing the best I can." Martin really did try the best he could. He could have been the honorary chairman of the "Best-You-Caners Society."

    But then, the head of his monastery asked him to teach a course on the book of Romans. And everything changed. Do you know why? Try reading the book of Romans, and you might experience with Martin Luther did.

  39. wyomingwilly says:

    f-melo, You asked a very good question concerning Mormonism's God the Mother [HM]. Forget
    about worshipping Her, Mormons have been counseled by a member of their First Presidency
    to refrain from even talking (prayer) to Her it seems. Mormon leaders have said that She has the
    same glory, holiness, and perfection as Her husband, and so it has also been stated that She
    then rightly stands beside Him. Yet it appears that although LDS are told to express their
    gratitute to Heavenly Father by telling (prayer) Him so , this normal behavior to parents is not to
    take place towards Heavenly Mother ! The Mormon doctrinal book, "True to the Faith " p.79
    instructs LDS to express gratitute to their earthly parents and also their Heavenly Father and
    to tell them thanks. So worship of Her is out, and it appears that so is even talking to Her.
    This confusion can happen when prophets introduce to many Gods.

  40. falcon says:

    Does anyone know how many heavenly mothers there are? In order to get to the CK a man-to- god candidate has to have practiced multiple wifery. I could see where the HMs could act as Mormon go-betweens to go to the HF with prayer requests. These wives have to have something to do other than produce multiple spirit babies. They also have the job along with the Mormon HF to get as many of their spirit babies to become gods. I can't imagine why people have so much difficulty believing the Mormon fantasy.

  41. falcon says:

    Yea, the more I do this the more of a Calvinist I become. That is:
    Total Depravity-man is totally unable to save himself.
    Unconditional Election-God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man.
    Limited Atonement-Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect.
    Irresistible Grace-the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect.
    Perseverance of the Saints-those who are justified will persevere in the faith.

    Now this isn't something that is dogmatic to orthodox Biblical Christianity, but is a way of explaining a certain point of view. However, in my darkest moments of dealing with hard core TBMs, in a strange sort of way, Calvin's perspective gives me comfort. It is then that I realize that it's just my responsibility to keep posting and witnessing to the saving grace of Jesus Christ. That's it!

  42. falcon says:

    I always figured that if Mormonism wants to claim, as their god, a sinful man who morphed into a god and that there are millions or perhaps billions of these gods zipping around the Mormon cosmos, that's their business. But what is really unacceptable is the idea that Jews and early Christians believed this. That's just totally inane. I've challenged Mormons to go and find an orthodox Jewish Rabbi, explain who they (Mormons) think God is and see if the Rabbi concurs. This is the thing with Mormonism, fantastic conspiracy theories and a cut and paste approach to scriptural interpretation need to be used in order to come up with the Mormon view on the nature of God. This is what happens when people get into a flow of thought that contends that they are receiving "revelation" directly from God. In my world, someone claiming such a thing better have some significant evidence to prove their claims. Take the idea of revelation and couple it with emotions as a test for truth and you have a recipe for disaster, which Mormonism is.

  43. Sarah says:

    I think that's my concern too. I don't have a problem with religions and freedom of religions. I have friends of all religions — Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Mormon, etc. — my concern is a religion (Mormonism) that considers itself Christianity, converts people on the basis of it apparently being Christianity, and yet is far from Christianity.

    I have offended a friend with this discussion. A Mormon friend who was aghast that I didn't consider her religion Christian. She was appalled and upset. She agreed with me that the Mormon religion doesn't follow "traditional" Christianity. My next question was (which was unanswered), what Christianity is there besides the traditional one? Also, wasn't Joseph Smith's purpose to restore the truth? Therefore, wouldn't logic dictate that he and the Mormons would follow the traditional Christianity and it's the rest of us who went astray?

  44. falcon says:

    It's all about "revelation". A thought, a concept comes floating through the rather fertile minds of the Mormon prophets or faithful for that matter, they feel good about it and BINGO, they have the truth. Then they have to cast about to try and find some support for their revelation. Our discussion here is as basic as it gets, "Who is God?" Mormons are a warehouse of misinformation especially when it comes to the history of the Christian Church. They are virtually clueless because they have to come up with some twist on the information to support their position which is unsupportable in the world of reality.

  45. f_melo says:

    In reality, that´s only a problem if you consider Father, Son and Holy Ghost as 3 separate beings, each having to have the same set of characteristics.

    You, even though your spirit plus your body = you, not two of you, but one of you, if your Spirit leaves your body you won´t be able to do things you could with your body.

    Of course that´s a poor analogy to kind of explain how 2 in 1 works, and it´s nothing compared to what the Trinity is(because the three share the same nature and power, etc.), but it helps visualize things we are not used to consider…

  46. f_melo says:

    "In this way with both being tempted and feeling our sufferring and anguish, He is able to succor us in our time of need as He can truely empathise with us"

    Don´t you think that wasn´t really necessary because Elohim already had a body and could perfectly emphasize with us?

    You haven´t addressed that issue so far…

  47. Sarah says:

    Not only that, but Mormons place a priority on education and intelligence. My best friend is highly educated. She likes to go on about all the religion and archaeology and history classes she took, how she almost minored in religion and archaeology. But what she chooses not to see is that those classes, taken at BYU, are all from a Mormon worldview. So despite the classes and the education, it's still one-sided. It's still a class and an education that has been fueled by one viewpoint and the twisting of that information.

  48. Violet says:

    Bingo. Thank you for posting and witnessing the saving grace of Christ Jesus. You are strong and I just don't want you going koo koo because its like your David, fighting Goliath with a little sling shot. Keep up the good fight! I thought I was a Calvinist but am going to have to study the 'but efficient only for the elect. cannot be resisted by the elect and those who are justified will persevere in the faith. I thought I was covered with His righteousness, not my own, and that was the answer.

  49. f_melo says:

    " That is, that they have a Satanic religion clothed in what appears to be a white robe of righteousness."

    Falcon, but that´s impossible – Satan can´t fake feelings of peace and joy… (sarcasm).
    That´s the usual answer mormons will give when confronted about how Satan deceives, it´s the perfect piece of manipulation.

  50. Violet says:

    Wouldn't it be Holy Mother(s), with an 's', as in plural?

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