“Be appalled, O heavens, at this; be shocked, be utterly desolate, declares the Lord, for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” (Jeremiah 2:12-13)
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Undoubtedly it does give the Mormon hope, that God once walked in our shoes and understands what it is like to be human.
The Bible truth of the matter is that God did walk in our shoes. Hebrews 4:15
However, God didn't "try it out" and decide that some sin is okay, you can still become a god. That is a lie from the pit of hell.
God knows that it is indeed IMPOSSIBLE for anyone but Himself to be sinless. He therefore, mercifully, came to earth to die for us, that we could accept His payment on our behalf, and live in His glorious presence for eternity.
What a GOSPEL! What a GOD! Praise YHWH; there is none like Him! Isaiah 46:9
"What a GOSPEL! What a GOD! Praise YHWH; there is none like Him! Isaiah 46:9"
Amen!
It´s interesting to notice that there were a few mormons who were troubled by that idea and they almost immediately said that God was like Jesus, someone who didn´t sin. That´s quite bizarre that people would compare God to Jesus, and say God was once like Jesus and not the other way around… What´s also strange is the fact that there is supposedly only one "messiah" out of all of God´s children in each generation, meaning that Elohim´s brothers and sisters sinned and then became gods, if Elohim was the Christ of his generation.
It´s a very twisted theology all around, and it completely takes away the glory and greatness of God…
"It´s a very twisted theology all around, and it completely takes away the glory and greatness of God… " I couldn't agree more!
I suspect this is why Mormon children are taught to repeat "I know this church is true" from the time they are very young. God-truths are solid. Mormon doctrine is convoluted and confusing. The Mormon who doesn't believe God could have sinned, and that God may have taken time to live the human experience (and prove that He was still sinless and the only ONE), understands the idea of "God" at a deeper level than his/her Mormonism can penetrate. I have more hope for these Mormons than for the others – the ones that are full of their "potential" – lol
"the ones that are full of their "potential"
LOL!
I remember hearing someone say once that the greatest technique behind mind-control is flattery. That it was the foundation of every false religion and organization – and that´s why people like it, because it makes them feel good, special, etc. Christianity is just the opposite – it tells us how it is without fear, that we are corrupt and evil by nature, but that God in His love provided a way for us to be reconciled with Him through faith in His son!
I also got sick of hearing family members telling me of how God had reserved for me important leadership callings because i was so special, and i knew deep inside that they thought i was special because i behaved well and i knew how to communicate well, you know, give good talks, good lessons, and had a decent understanding of the doctrine. It is like God is a big business man, that looks for those characteristics in people instead of looking in the heart. I knew my heart wasn´t clean before God and i really got upset at times when people would blindly make those statements.
And you hear so much of that "you´re a child of god, a god in embryo" stuff that it gets to your head – your start believing that God thinks you´re awesome! That makes your sins weight that much more as well. It´s pretty sad for anyone who takes it seriously, and the only thing that i observed that really gave hope to people was the promise of eternal families…
Yea, and these poor dupes want to be called Christians. They have no idea who God is. How do Mormons get so twisted?
amen Melo. Knowing who you really are (a helpless sinner, saved by grace alone) frees you up to see things how they really are – to exist within truth. 🙂
God never sinned. What a neat idea to speculate about. If you think about King Follett's discourse the idea is bound to be thought of.
Several blogs ago-Classic mormonism- Sharon notes from the book Plan of Salvation 'so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and eons, of evolving into a god.
The phrase- by experience through ages and eons- sticks out in my mind especially the word eons. What is an eon? A billion years. Several eons are several billion years. And if you think of Gods year the way mormons see Gods year where 1000 years of our lifetime equals one day of his that is a heck of a long time.
My reason for writing this is to note that if we are gods in embryo the timeline for becoming a god is so long that we would probably use the same phrases He uses-from everlasting to everlasting and eternity to eternity.
Clyde, what are you talking about?
"from everlasting to everlasting and eternity to eternity"
It doesn´t matter how many trillions of years passed, if it has a beginning it isn´t everlasting or eternal.
After I cool down and am out on my snowshoe trek with the goldendoodles, I am reminded that these Mormons aren't talking about "God". They are talking about "god". The god that they have defined as a sinful man who, after following certain procedures and life style choices, morphed into a god. By uncovering the ancient secrets of the universe, he found the pathway of successful living and achievement that would cause him to "change". So really, this "god" that Mormons talk about is just one more in a line of other gods who discovered this pathway to nirvana. Ah, what bliss, peace, contentment and tranquility.
So becoming a god is a little bit like getting good karma. The gods reveal the knowledge to assist humans on their quest. There, doesn't that make you feel good? It must be true!
I think it's extremely sad how many people here think God won't save (and condones you mocking) people who truly reach out to Him with a real intent to serve and dedicate their lives to submitting to God, but happen to have a different interpretation of the ancient biblical texts and understanding of His Nature than you do.
It saddens me that there are those who believe God who would say, "You may have sincerely thought all your life that you were serving me, and I know you sincerely believe you received a Remission of Sins through what you thought was accepting and fully submitting yourself to Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but…. you also believed X about me, and X is not true. You also believed Y and Z about Jesus, and that's just silly. Your acceptance of Jesus is therefore not valid, you are not justified, and, because of my Incomprehensible Eternal Love, I will toss you to burn in the depths of hell. I created you, but because you were confused, and were mistaken about what I or may not may have been doing before the Bible started, I don't know you."
At least Mormons believe that all those confused and with mistaken conceptions (of which I, will agree, includes many Mormons themselves)will all have a gracious and clear and undeniable opportunity to be taught and understand a fullness of God's Truth, and to accept it or reject it with a full knowledge, before the Judgement (with an opportunity not consisting of a single person, or group of persons, waving signs and screaming Bible verses in their face while mocking them).
Mormons believe God loves the confused and mislead, and won't just shrug his shoulders and joyously toss them into the garbage heap and make fun of him like many of his professed followers here appear to condone and believe.
I was trying to give an explanation of something unexplanable. Aaron's God never sinned idea is one idea out of probable many that you can use to make them-mormons- think about their relationship to God. I can see how awesome God is and so can you. We can make a list of what we see as the wonders of God or how amazing He is and agree on most of them. The nature of god is what we don't agree on.
You wrote, 'It doesn´t matter how many trillions of years passed, ' If you changed it to say' It doesn´t matter how many trillions of eons passed' It would still be an equally long time that we could not understand. If we asked God about this He might tell us that all we need to know is that He has been around from eternity to eternity.
dltayman, Much of what you say is what Mormons themselves do to others…
How do you define truly reaching out to Him? Hmm, dltayman, it isn´t a matter of different interpretation of ancient biblical texts… that happens between Christian denominations. Joseph Smith didn´t bother to interpret the Bible and base his beliefs off of it, he created his own version of God and Jesus, and even had the courage to create a book(BoM) which he said was better than the Bible and it "proved" he was right despite of what the Bible had to say. That means that Mormons are in open rebellion against the Word of God. It´s serious.
Are you an universalist? Do you believe all paths lead to God? God doesn´t want anyone to perish, that´s why He sent Jesus to suffer for us the penalty of our sins but if you want to rebel against God and despise His word, how in the world do you think you are going to be able to face God in the day of judgement? Also the differences between the Mormon Jesus and the Biblical Jesus are no small matter, so much that yours is another Jesus altogether, not the same God at all.
Who are you to judge God and His goodness and mercy to say that He doesn´t do that already? Who are you to understand the mysteries of God? Only God knows people´s hearts. You clearly have a problem in letting God take care of His own business, where is your faith? Clear and undeniable opportunity? When i asked a seminary teacher why didn´t God just let everyone die and teach them in the Spirit World where they wouldn´t have the distractions of this world i was told that spirits are slower to learn and progress than when they are coupled with physical bodies – otherwise it wouldn´t make sense to even do missionary work at all for the living.
You clearly don´t think those things through, but hopefully God will turn your heart to the truth.
About the signs, even though i disapprove of that method of "evangelism", let´s make a deal – give up the whole becoming gods deal, and turn to the Bible, and then we won´t have to evangelize you anymore. If you don´t like that then tell your missionaries to stop calling Christian beliefs an abomination in the sight of God, and calling honest and dedicated pastors corrupt. What about that? Agree?
<bloclquote>Mormons believe God loves the confused and mislead, and won't just shrug his shoulders and joyously toss them into the garbage heap and make fun of him like many of his professed followers here appear to condone and believe.
Christians believe that as well. See, mormons usually don´t recognize the hypocrisy of their own judgment. I´ve see many mormons guitly of those things you just mentioned about. Also, your leadership isn´t mislead and confused, i´m talking about the prophet and apostles, they know the truth about the church and they omit it intentionally to keep people away from Christ. It´s not a matter of a wrong interpretation of a Bible passage – it´s a web of lies, deceit, pride, money, power, etc. that make mormonism what it is.
With eternal law we're stuck with a 'thing' that exists that is basically like an uncaused law of the universe. Are we to think this impersonal thing really is the standard of something like love and justice? Does gravity love? Could any constant of the universe really dictate what is just? I don't think there is any person reading this, Mormon or not, that thinks that something akin to gravity really holds in itself the standard of goodness or has any relation to love.
Just imagine if we said the laws of physics exist, yet the laws of physics aren't actually recognition of how actual things work in the physical world; they just 'exist'–the law itself. That would be absurd. These laws don't have any real concrete existence of their own; they can 'exist' ONLY by the fact that there is something real they are grounded in. What makes you think eternal law is different? Don't you think if love is truly a good thing that it is based off of something that could love or has to do with such a thing? Do you really think that eternal law has moral perfection or is the standard of perfection in general?
Mormons, when you see your fellow Mormons smiling in the video, happy about the fact that their god was imperfect, that god finds himself a servant to an impersonal thing by virtue of his own limitations, that the Mormon god isn’t intrinsically perfect and the standard of goodness, how is your reason and your heart not disgusted by such an idea of a ‘supreme being?’
For the Christian we have the standard of goodness, the righteous judge, the creator, the one who structured and sustains all things in being by His will. God is below NOTHING—ALL things are below God. God alone necessarily exists in His perfection and maximal greatness. God is what everything must follow, not ‘eternal law.’
"Also, your leadership isn´t mislead and confused, i´m talking about the prophet and apostles, they know the truth about the church and they omit it intentionally to keep people away from Christ."
This requires a reference for your VERY bold and insulting assertion. Please provide, here and now, your specific evidence that the current Apostles, and Thomas S. Monson in particular, are knowingly and intentionally trying to keep people away from Jesus Christ.
If you cannot present any evidence, then you are blatantly and knowingly bearing false witness.
One minute after achieving full exaltation and Godhood, do you think it would be appropriate to say of yourself, "I have been the Almighty God, the Holy of Holies, the Most High, unchangeably so from all eternity to all eternity"?
That'd be like winning the Super Bowl, and then in your after-game speech saying, "I have always been a Super Bowl champion, from all eternity to all eternity… And now I'm going to Disney Land."
"dltayman, Much of what you say is what Mormons themselves do to others… "
Some do. I acknowledge that. Those who do are wrong, and I don't justify their actions. Do you justify your mocking and flamboyantly judgemental behavior because some Mormons do it too?
"How do you define truly reaching out to Him? "
* Pray to Him, expressing love and gratitude, and seeking to learn His will.
* Reading His revealed Word (yes, for Mormons that includes the Protestant Bible), and intensely studying and praying to understand what has been presented
* Obeying what is understood to be the Lord's will
* Constantly seeking to learn more from God, and to refine one's understanding, and to be a better instrument in His hands
*Growing in Love towards God
"That means that Mormons are in open rebellion against the Word of God."
So much so that not only does the Book of Mormon encourage a reading of the Bible, making clear that while it may be incomplete, it nonetheless contains the Word of God. but the Modern Church consistently and regularly invites all to read and study it. The New Testament is being read and studied by most adult members together through this very year. The Old Testament was reviewed last year. Meanwhile, Mormon students around the world are having Bible classes on a daily basis where they are encouraged to read, study, and ponder the Scripture, and apply it in their life. And that's all apart from personal individual-led studies.
Personally, I think the New Testament teaches the nature and character of God the Father and Jesus Christ much clearer than does the Old Testament. In that regards, I view the New Testament as better. That does not denigrate or rebel against the Old Testament – it just reinforces that I believe a man could not have the Old Testament, read the New Testament, and come just as close to God. The Book of Mormon is viewed as the same way – it presents a clear message of the Divinity of Christ, and our reliance on His Mercy and Atonement, and the need to fully submit to His will and Accept Him as our Lord, God, Creator, and King.
"Do you believe all paths lead to God? "
I believe that no matter what path one takes, eventually, God will place in your path an opportunity to learn of Him, and to clearly discern Truth from Error. From that point on, there are two paths. The choice walking towards God, and the other walking away from Him.
" if you want to rebel against God and despise His word"
I find this terribly arrogant and insulting. I strive on a daily basis to greater understand God, to greater discern what he would have me do to be an effective and faithful servant of Him, and seek how to love my neighbor better. I seek to better understand His Revealed Word, especially the Bible. I love and cherish the Bible, and study it regularly, consistently, and very in depth. I seek him out in prayer. I love He who has revealed Himself to me. I desire to grow closer to Him.
"how in the world do you think you are going to be able to face God in the day of judgement?"
Because I know that he's far more gracious and loving and just than you seem to be.
Ah, here's the deal, the Book of Romans tells us that men are without excuse when it comes to knowing who God is and serving Him.
Good intentions don't count for anything. Someone can be sincere and end up being sincerely in hell.
I really don't find any pleasure in writing things like this but the bottom line is that getting God wrong has a cost attached to it.
Mormons insult God and blaspheme Him and then want to be judged on good intentions. I really don't have any time for folks who say that God was once a sinner and that they will become gods themselves. This is not scriptural and is a revelation of demons.
There's no point in sugar coating this.
"Ah, here's the deal, the Book of Romans tells us that men are without excuse when it comes to knowing who God is and serving Him. "
Eventually, all men will be. I dont think the intent was that everyone at every single stage in life, everywhere in the world, from an infant up, is fully responsible for knowing with 100% accuracy the nature of God, and his actual will.
By the time the Judgement comes, no one will have an excuse. At some point, our loving and merciful God will have given everyone a clear knowledge with which to make an informed choice to follow Him, or reject Him. I am following God according to what He has revealed through sincere prayer and study of the Scriptures.
"Good intentions don't count for anything.omeone can be sincere and end up being sincerely in hell. "
God doesn't care if your intention is to love Him, and to serve Him, and to truly learn His will? He just cares if we accurately know certain facts? He will nonchalantly cast into hell someone who has honestly and diligently sought to know Him, but came to some incorrect factual conclusions? Is that really your position?
"I really don't find any pleasure in writing things like this"
Reading several of your posts gives the opposite impression.
"Mormons insult God and blaspheme Him and then want to be judged on good intentions. "
Most Mormons love God, and would be horrified to discover anything they were doing would insult or blaspheme God. They certainly don't do it intentionally. They strive to love God with all their heart, might, mind and strength – and many do. Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." – Do you think the Father less merciful than Jesus?
I for one personally think the 'God was a sinner' idea is based on incorrect assumptions based on a popular reading of Joseph's latter discourses. I reject it, and think it is incorrect.
I do not think, however, that those who think it a possibility that our Holy and Perfect God was made perfect through an Atonement are viewed as wicked, evil hellbound miscreants by our loving Father. Just mistaken, and in time, they'll be lovingly corrected. They certainly don't love God any less, or worship him any less with this concept in their mind.
We do not know the answer to that. I am just trying to point out that the timeline is so long and unfathomable that we cannot understand it. Does our salvation depend on this knowledge? I would say no it is more on our behavior.
My reply to you came out as a comment.
While i can´t present any written/spoken confession – which they wouldn´t give anyway fearing for their lives even, i have evidence to back that up.
One of the strongest evidences is Boyd K. Packer´s talk "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect" that can be downloaded here – http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=54…
He says on page 5:
He then goes on to talk about how you shouldn´t seek for historical facts from "enemies", too bad for Packer that Jesus´ enemies provide a rich source of historical confirmation of His existence and power.
By that i can conclude that Packer is aware of facts damning of the Church which he is openly forbidding CES teachers to present to their students who go to seminary and institute, similar to Nazi and Communist propaganda/brainwashing strategies.
Your apostles and prophets have full access to church records and are aware of facts they intentionally leave out of history books and teaching manuals which prevent the members from being aware that the church isn´t true and therefore they are leading them away from God.
Another evidence of the Mormon "apostles" propensity to lie and deceive is Dallin Oaks quick response to the fake Salamander letter. Regardless of the fact that their holy ghost priesthood powers didn´t alert them it was a forgerie he wrote an article in which he does all sorts of dances to try to explain the bizarre things contained in it while trying to make the events look "normal".
Those are a couple among tons of evidences of such behavior.
Now you´re just being a drama queen.
"yes, for Mormons that includes the Protestant Bible" – What do you mean by the Protestant Bible? It isn´t the Protestant Bible, it´s everybody´s Bible! It´s the Word of God! Weird comment that one…
All those reasons you gave on how to reach God, i do them but i´m not a Mormon – how come? All that you claim to be commandments from God came only through Joseph Smith, so you entire faith and faith system is placed on one man who was not very trustworthy(i´m being nice).
Just one thing – the Bible isn´t incomplete. There are no proofs for that claim, on the contrary, archeological evidence proves the Bible to be almost the exact same as when Jesus walked on earth. I don´t care if the BoM encourages one to read the Bible or if you study the Bible in sunday school, because your manuals skip over the most important passages, or when they don´t they add those commentaries that deny what the Bible says. So, Joseph Smith´s theology is imposed on passages taken out of context, and the Mormon Church doesn´t allow a clear verse by verse Exegesis of the Bible;
Well, the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old, that´s why things are much clearer there, you don´t have to be a genius to figure that out. Yet by saying that are you implying that the BoM is another Covenant, one that supersedes the Covenant as given by Christ in the New Testament? In what way does the BoM clarify what was already taught in the New Testament? Honestly, there´s no need for a Book of Mormon, the Gospel is clearly taught in the Bible as it is and the BoM doesn´t add anything new nor could it to the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
I find your first vision terribly insulting and arrogant. I find the mormon position that they are only true church insulting and arrogant as well as their claim that they are the only ones who understand Jesus Christ.
If you´re a follower of Joseph Smith you might as well strive to serve better the Gnostic Jesus, or Mithra, Osiris or whatever pagan god tells you are going to become gods. Why would God bother to have a chosen people if that didn´t matter? Why would the mormon church exist if one´s factual understanding of Jesus doesn´t matter?
Your arguments are self-defeating, i don´t care how pious you are, if you don´t approach God trough the blood of Jesus you´re not pleasing Him.
If it doesn´t matter what Jesus you worship why do you do missionary work to convert people to your religion?
Mormons, that´s so absurd, you know those arguments are pure nonsense. If dltayman and you clyde didn´t care about what people´s knowledge of God and Jesus was you wouldn´t try to convert those who are already Christians. So, why don´t you send your missionaries home and let the Christians die and then preach to them in the Spirit World?
Boy, you´re fooling yourselves big time!
OK, the teachable moment. Stay on topic and don't start evaluating the other posters. If you think I'm blunt, tune in to Rick the Hammer. I'm a pussycat compared to him.
Most Mormons love "a god" not God. Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion could make the same claim that Mormons do. But Mormons, like the folks in these other religions, no matter how sincere, lovely, pious, devout, and no matter how much they "feel" it; are not saved.
In order to be saved, have eternal life, be born again; a person has to acknowledge God. There is only One. He doesn't live on or near a planet/star by the name of Kolob. He doesn't have a stable of women with whom He has endless Celestial sex with in order to procreate spirit children who can populate this or any other planet.
Good intentions will not get someone saved.
You're sincere right? What does it count for? Nothing!
Am I blunt? Yes I am. I don't see the point of playing around about this.
See this is what Mormons don't get; just any "god" will not do. Mormons, when they look in the spiritual mirror think they are pretty "fit", that is, in good spiritual shape. They've got the piety and prayer and good moral standards and works going on so how could they possibly have the wrong god? They even boast of answers to prayer and intense "spiritual" feelings and goodness sake even the priesthood. It's all filthy rags. As the apostle Paul stated in his post convert letter to the Phillipians, he counted his former religious life and what he accomplished as rubbish. That's garbage.
He came to know Christ. That's the real Jesus and not a pretend Jesus that a false prophet claimed a revelation for. Mormons aren't trusting in Jesus Christ for their salvation, they are trusting in Joseph Smith. So it all comes down to how reliable Joseph Smith was. It doesn't take long to pick a part Joseph Smith and see him for who he was; a religious charleton with a bogus story.
I wouldn't bet my eternal soul on Joseph Smith. He's been weighed in the balance and found wanting. And the Mormon testimony? It counts for nothing because it's the testimony of a false god and a false gospel…….no matter how it makes a person feel. Frankly the whole thing gives me the creeps but that's not what I base my rejection of this false gospel on. At the end of the day it's the false god of Mormonism that is opposed to the God of the Bible that demonstrates the falseness of this religious system.
I'm curious, dltayman. What is the foundation of your belief in the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith?
Have you ever stopped to think that the Bible began to be written "in the beginning" of human history, or at least shortly thereafter, and that for a few thousand years, it was the only book God had given to man. In these thousands of years, God continued to say that there is, has been, and will ever be ONLY ONE GOD – Himself, YHWH…
And then, roughly nearly 200 years ago, three more books come on the scene. One – the Book of Mormon, still maintains that there is only ONE GOD. And then, low and behold, some how and for some crazy reason….
GOD CHANGES HIS MIND…
and recants thousands of years of what He has been telling people, about how there is only ONE GOD…
god gives the REAL TRUTH to Joseph Smith, with the intent that he and his "saints" can now spend their time in temples doing vicarious work for the dead, THE DEAD…
ALL THOSE PEOPLE HE HAD LIED TO FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS
it's amazing, isn't it? What a complete jerk your god is. What a complete jerk to lie and lie and lie and lie… for the vast majority of human history, and then finally….
tell the "real" truth.
Isn't that bizarre? Or had you ever thought of it that way?
From Jesus' own lips:
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. " (John 17:3)
there are lots and lots of Bible verses that say the same thing: http://blog.mrm.org/2010/02/one-god/
dltayman, can you answer this question? Why would God lie so many times, for the majority of our human timeline, and then finally tell the truth and expect a few people to be able to track down all the names of all the people ever on the earth, and get them baptized by proxy?
doesn't it make more sense that he would, say….. tell the truth the first thousands of times?
You say:
It saddens me that there are those who believe God who would say, "You may have sincerely thought all your life that you were serving me, and I know you sincerely believe you received a Remission of Sins through what you thought was accepting and fully submitting yourself to Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but…. you also believed X about me, and X is not true. You also believed Y and Z about Jesus, and that's just silly. Your acceptance of Jesus is therefore not valid, you are not justified, and, because of my Incomprehensible Eternal Love, I will toss you to burn in the depths of hell. I created you, but because you were confused, and were mistaken about what I or may not may have been doing before the Bible started, I don't know you."
Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but that's exactly what God will do.
Matthew 7: 21-23 states:
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Mormons, by blaspheming the nature of God, by rejecting God's grace, by disregarding Christ's death as the only thing necessary for salvation, may very well, at the final judgment plead with God that they've done everything, prophesied in His name, performed good works, etc. but God, very well could say: "I never knew you."
Sarah, great passage! Mormons usually hurry to quote that one when someone says they are saved by Grace alone through faith!
As long as Mormons continue to view God through the lens of Joseph Smith's magic glasses, they will not know God or be able to understand His Word, the Holy Bible. Smith's views were so deviant that those who embrace them, have no hope of finding God. Mormons reject God.
I would suggest that they take off those spectacles, that actually were a magic rock, and seek God as He is, not as they have conceptualized Him through a flawed and ignorant man.
Yes Setfree,
Great verse – One True God AND Jesus Christ.
Two individuals. And no I am not taking it out of context from the chapter, the whole chapter delineates between God (Heavenly Father) and Jesus as 2 separate beings.
Ralph you´re so interested in truth that i have to ask you – have you ever actually read anything dealing with the Trinity? Because the "AND" there doesn´t deny it at all, and it doesn´t mean they are two separate individuals even though you have to bring God down to your level to make sense of it while ignoring the entire Bible that completely denies that "understanding" that He is an exalted human being.
Now, if you want to be polytheists, that´s your problem…
Mormons have this perspective that basically articulated says that if a Mormon is sincere, has certain thoughts about the nature of God and then feels good about it, then those thoughts and feelings add up to something being true; because, after all, they were sincere. It doesn't seem to occur to them that sincerity and feelings don't add up to something being the truth. Someone can be insincere and have negative feelings and the topic in question can be true. Thoughts, feelings and motivation, in-other-words, don't make something true.
There are Christians, who get the nature of God right, but in their everyday lives go off on all sorts of tangents because they think their thoughts and feelings indicate the leading of God. Then when things don't work out they blame God because surely they were sincere and had thoughts and warm feelings. These folks have conversations in their head with God and think the mental voice they hear is always God speaking to them. I must admit, doing this is fun and spiritually uplifting and emotionally satisfying and most of the time harmless.
I talk to God all day long. And I hear a voice in my head responding. But I've figured out, over decades of this, that often times I'm talking to myself. It's not that God doesn't speak to me in various ways but hopefully through maturity and common sense, I've kind of figured out what's going on when I do this.
It's called prayer. And I do believe fervently in the process however anything I "hear" and "feel" better line-up with God's revealed Word and supported by the traditions of the faith going back to the Church Fathers.
I knew a woman once who was a recovering alcoholic and had fallen in love with another man. She decided to leave her husband because she saw a picture of Jesus with the word "peace" printed on it. She took this as a sign from God that she should leave her husband and three kids which she did. I guess she "felt" peaceful about her decision.
No matter what we think about our own "sincerity", the Bible tells us that our hearts are wicked, and they are no matter how good we feel. We are selfish and egocentric and want what we want and that is driven by our emotions.
Mormons want Joseph Smith's fairy tale to be true. They want to be gods and have their forever families reigning with them in their personal glory. What a marvelous outcome. Unfortunately for Mormons it isn't true. It's merely the mental meanderings of an egotist with a magic rock.
So doesn't sincerity, piety, devotion, good moral behavior, good intentions, and positive emotions count for something? Sure it does, in the eyes of the world. But in God's economy it counts for nothing in terms of realizing eternal life. How can that be? Well first of all because God's Word tells us that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". So this means that the only way into God's kingdom is through an atoning sacrifice. God get's to say what that's going to be. He said it's His own blood that needs to pay the price because He's the only One qualified, being perfect. It's like the passover lamb was to be without blemish. It seems ridiculous to even point this out but God is totally holy. It is His nature. He is without spot or blemish.
Now those who know God, know and understand this. Those who don't know God, don't know and understand this. Those who are born again by the Spirit of God are led into all truth. Those who are not born again by the Spirit of God are led into error with the result that they are separated from God for eternity.
Having a nice clean and reverent look along with a devout, pious, sincere attitude and good behavior and positive emotions, masks the hideous nature lurking underneath the exterior facade. There is a picture that aberrant religious cults present to the world on the outside. The inside, like Jesus said, is filled with bones of dead men. He called them white washed sepulchers.
All that glitters isn't gold no matter how brightly it shines and sparkles. It's just fools gold!
Most of the people in this video, whether they say yes or no demonstrate a severe lack of understanding of the holiness of God. Only the woman about half-way through who says 'heavenly Father is not like us' emphatically is even close to the truth. Even those who say 'no' display a lack of outrage or total rejection of even the premise of the question. When I first heard of the Mormon concept of man becoming god (eternal progression) together with the idea that their god was once a man, I was stunned. It is such an ugly and reprehensible idea – it completely undermines the holy eternal nature of God. It turns God into a created being, merely a by-product of some greater cosmic force or principle. It is a complete lie and without any Biblical support whatsoever. Mormons seem to like the idea because it takes away the separation we feel from God because of our sin – rather than God who takes away our sin through Christ's death and resurrection so that we can be with Him, Mormons have a god who is a sinner and is just like them (and thus no separation) and ascended through principles which they too can follow. It is just paganism repackaged with a picture of Jesus placed on top.
Mormons are stuck with having to convince the world of the veracity of Joseph Smith because he's the one who developed these fanciful, perverse, blasphemous and self-serving ideas about almighty God. Smith's motives are pretty clear. He wanted to do what he wanted to do and he could only do that if he conceptualized a god that was a sinner. Smith's invention included religious rituals that would provide a pathway for mortals to become their own gods.
It seems that Smith required a certain level of moral behavior from his followers which he wasn't all that interested in practicing himself. This is pretty common among religious phonies who have the ability to keep the eyes of the public diverted from their (leader's) behavior. When Smith was being exposed for the charleton that he was, he saw fit to persecute his accuser by attacking the instrument of the exposer, his printing press.
Smith couldn't stand on his own and always had a pack of eager men willing to do his bidding. And this is the guy that Mormons believe had revelations about the nature and person of god.
Jesus warned about people like Smith who would come proclaiming false prophecies and revelation. These false prophets wouldn't be able to get away with it if there weren't people who have no interest in exercising some form of spiritual discernment. Driven by feelings and false promises of personal glory, Mormons have only themselves to blame for their eventual spiritual destruction.
If you're just trying to score points, you're going to be disappointed with my reply. If you're actually interested in knowing how I "Stop to think" about the Bible – and indeed a way I approach all scriptures, LDS canon included – then read on. My past visit here sets me up to think this isn't going to lead to a discussion, just a series of straw-man arguments to show clearly and angrily why I'm obviously a blasphemer and a liar who hates and mocks God, can't possibly have any real desire to love and know Him, and am destined for the pit of hell.
But it's possible that may not happen. I'll reply again if it doesn't. But for those interested in an actual response to his question:
I'm unsure if you've ever looked into Biblical scholarship concerning authorship and dating of the texts, or how you have considered what has been presented (such as the Documentary Hypothesis).
Not knowing that, however, I will say that I am not a scriptural inerrantist (that goes just as well for LDS specific scripture as to the Bible itself). (ctd…)
(ctd from above)
I understand the major narratives of the OT to have been compiled and edited during the exilic period, with most of the prophetic writings either beginning shortly before, or taking place during or after. I recognize the hand of compilers seeking to understand the reason for what had happened to their nation, and using a didactic form of history to present it. I recognize that even in the prophetic books, there are important signs of multiple authorship (particularly in Isaiah) who wrote in different periods, reinterpreting the earlier writings in context of then-present understanding.
I do not believe "writing under inspiration" necessarily constitutes being taken over and being assured that every concept or word being written is the pinnacle of literal perfection, or like taking dictation from God. I understand it as the writer receiving light and knowledge from God, and using his gifts to express his understanding of the light to the best of his ability, using the tools at his disposal.
Some express it in poetry. Some use symbol. Some re-write narrative history in a symbolic way. Others use the more direct rhetorical 'Thus sayeth the Lord" mode of presentation. Others just plainly call it as they see it.
There is a difference between believing that scripture contains writings that contain and strive to express
the mind and will of the Lord, and that every single stroke of the pen in the current accepted collection of 66 books contains literally verbatim God's Infallible Dictated Words.
I believe all scripture given of inspiration is extraordinarily profitable in learning about the nature of God's dealings with man, how man has interpreted history in light of what God has revealed, and using it to place in context that personal things that are happening in my life. There are powerful examples to follow, and terrible examples to avoid. It is highly profitable for instruction in so many practical areas of life. (ctd…)
(ctd from above)
That being said, I understand the Strict Monotheism being professed by Deutero-Isaiah as a new exilic theological development (as opposed to the more ancient Israelite Monolatry – acknowledgement of others, devoted worship to One) that solves, expounds, and reinterprets some of the events (and theological problems) that have occurred in Israelite history – especially as a result of the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple and the Kingship (the basis and context for the presentation of the Adam story in Genesis – the Garden is Jerusalem/The Temple, Adam the King/Priest being set up as King over all, and then being exiled and losing his glory for not heeding to strict obedience to the commandment of God – the same thing that happened to Saul!)
I do not believe God changes his mind. I do believe the way man understands what God has revealed through his actions, the events of history, and in their personal lives, however, does change. As does the amount of information present, as God chooses at his will to reveal more as His children are prepared to receive it, and act upon it.
God loves us. He's perfect. We're not. Not a single writer of a scriptural text was perfect, nor had an exhaustive 100% complete and accurate understanding of God. They were given much, and expressed what they understood – and these expressions of God's revelations are precious, and need to be studied, and applied, and tested.
I do believe there are many writings throughout the world from many different cultures – not contained in the Bible – that were written through inspiration, and are the result of encounters with God's work and His hand, even though the writer may not have fully understood, or have been ignorant as to the source. These individuals who wrote would not have been prophets per se, (individuals specifcially sent forth and authorized to present their works as representative of the Lord's will) and such works may not speak of God blatantly, or they may call him by different names. They may make some very mistaken assumptions along with their true insights, and in fact the incorrect may far outweigh the correct and inspired – but the inspired insights are powerful, and can be highly profitable for pondering and learning about the True God. God always reveals himself to those who humbly seek him – we don't always understand the message when it comes, and we don't always follow up with the right questions.
When it comes to LDS scripture, I don't believe the CoJCoLD has a 100% complete and accurate understanding of God in all things. I do however, strongly believe that is does present additional authoritative expressions of divine inspiration and revelation that can add powerful new context and understanding to what has gone before. I do not believe all of the interpretations or speculations based on those revelations are necessarily accurate. I do, however, believe that God has revealed more, and has specifically called and authorized individuals as Prophets to declare and present this revelation to the world.
The revelation that has come forth through the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint – and through the instrument of Joseph Smith in particular – has powerfully changed my life for the better, and has added to my willingness and desire to submit myself to God's will, and to trust in Him. More than anything, I recognize all prophets (including Joseph) are highly fallible and weak men striving to present their understanding of the Lord's revelations the best he can. The difference is that they were authorized to present this to the world, and specially supported by Him in this task.
I do not worship prophets, and I do no worship scripture. Scripture is an imperfect, yet powerful, and essential tool in helping one to know God. But in the end, the purpose of all scripture is to bring one to God Himself, to let Him reveal Himself to you personally. Not just through words on a page. Not just through feelings.
If God is real – and I know He is – and if God loves us – which I know He does – , he won't need for us to rely on interpretations of ancient texts alone to know him, or to hear His voice.
That's where I stand.
The Protestant Canon isn't the only accepted definition of "Bible" in Christiandom. Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Ethiopic, and several others have different understandings of what it considered The Bible, including more books, less books, etc. See here if you're interested in learning.
Be perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect. Doesn't it say something like that in the bible? It is not like God is like us it is that we can be like God. We are noble spirits not totally depraved like calvinist might say. Aaron asked a good question but God is the one we have to deal with. We do not know alot of things about God. You must also remember that we speculating on the idea whether God never sinned or did.
dltayman, You sure have some misconceptions of not only the beliefs of those non-LDS who post
here, but also of where " sincerity " places in the lives of people. Does being sincere trump everything ?
Consider the multitudes of sincere people who lost much of their hard earned money when they invested
it with Bernie Madoff , it amounted to billions of dollars. Could be the biggest fraud scheme in U.S.history.
Consider the news report last year of the sincere couple who relied on prayer alone to cure their child,
two year son Kent. He died. They've been arrested.
In 2006 Deseret News carried an article on a group of researchers meeting in Casper WY. to share their
findings on an event in Mormon history, it concerned a tragedy of a hand cart company coming to Utah.
Many sincere LDS put their trust in an apostle's counsel where he advised them to have faith, to be
obedient to their leaders, with his testimony that God would see them safety across the plains to their
goal. Many died of starvation and hypothermia. dltayman, can you see the pattern here ? [cont…]
[ cont ]
Can you see why this ministry takes Jesus' warning seriously [ Matt.7;15 ] ? He warned of future false
prophets. Who is claiming to be a prophet today ? We need to evaluate their teachings in the light of
the Word of God. If a person submits to follow a prophet, and accept his doctrine , if this doctrine is
inaccurate on a fundamental issue [ the nature of God etc ] , then a person can stand to lose their
salvation. Even some of your own apostles have stated such can be the case. This is why it is so sad
concerning the Mormon people who have not taken the step to evaluate their prophet's teachings with
God's word. I've said many times that LDS are sincere decent people who are striving to serve God, yet
they have allowed their leaders to become road-blocks to a more fuller relationship with God.
I find your remarks arrogant and insulting, and i don´t appreciate your mocking tone. 😉
I´m fully aware of that but thank you anyways. Interesting that you use that man-made incomplete "Protestant" Bible when you have a super powerful/spiritual living Prophet, also where is the inspired version, without songs of Solomon, why isn´t that your official Bible?
"why I'm obviously a blasphemer and a liar who hates and mocks God, can't possibly have any real desire to love and know Him, and am destined for the pit of hell."
huh, did i just read straw-man somewhere? ohh… i remember! " think this isn't going to lead to a discussion, just a series of straw-man arguments"
You should add another one in that list, but i won´t tell you, i will let you figure it out, since i´ve hurt you enough with "insults" already.
I can understand that position as relating to the Bible, but to the LDS Scriptures? The BoM was always overseen by either a prophet or someone God-fearing. According to the BoM Mormon even abridged the entire record, going through it all, he could have detected major mistakes in it. Worst of all, JS translated supposedly by the power of god, through 1)Urim and Thummin(even though there are no witnesses of that, i think, maybe Martin Harris only?) 2)Seer stone in a hat(most of it) 3) Direct revelation – and all of those methods didn´t require the use of the plates… So, to say that the LDS scriptures have errors in it means to put god´s power into question. Besides that´s where all the bragging about the BoM being the most correct book comes from, from supposedly being pure straight from God without the interference of men…
That´s not necessarily true. more info here: http://www.crystalinks.com/scrollsilver.html
I disagree, either those writings are the mind and will of the Lord or they aren´t. There´s no striving. Of course the books weren´t dictated by God, and every book and passage must be analyzed under its respective context.
I have to disagree with you here – the Bible isn´t about you, and it´s not a manual for righteous living. The Bible is about Jesus and His history – it´s the record of Jesus´ lineage and God´s dealings with them and how God fulfilled His promise to Adam and Eve in the Garden. The things that have to do with us are those pertaining to the Church and a new life in Christ. You can´t just allegorize the Bible and apply to whatever "similar" circumstance(that´s a stretch already) and expect the same results, or expect specific blessings given to specific people in the Old Testament to apply to you here and now. Just like the famous tithing scripture in Malachi, it has nothing to do with us now.
Yet i agree with you when you say " It is highly profitable for instruction in so many practical areas of life". For instruction, wisdom, no question about that.
A new exilic theological development? Really? To that all i have to say is this, 1 Corinthians 8:4 – "As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one." The gods they acknowledged weren´t real gods, they were nothing and that in no way justifies any teaching that Israel´s religion was ever polytheistic, even though they were heavily influenced by the cultures around them. Even so, a lot of the Old Testament was God punishing them for worshiping false gods. I´ve seen mormons deceitfully trying to use that as a means of justifying polytheism, but it´s pure deception.
The basis and context for the presentation of the Adam story? Sorry but i´ll go with Jesus and believe that the books of Moses were actually the words and writings of Moses even though they had to be restored by Ezra. One thing that annoys me very much is how people who call themselves Christian and profess to believe that God, the Creator was born in a human body, performed all kinds of incredible miracles and then died and was supernaturally raised from the dead have a problem when it comes to Genesis and the history of Adam and Eve! Which one is more absurd? Jesus being God in the flesh and being raised from the dead supernaturally or that God created the world in 7 days and created a literal man called Adam and a literal woman called Eve? Both are equally absurd. So i can´t come to grips with this – people who believe in Jesus and yet are so ready to deny other supernatural events as described in the Bible! Unless you believe, of course, that Jesus was a wise teacher and that the Apostles embellished the whole story and it´s just another mystery religion where if you don´t get the esoteric meaning behind it, you don´t understand any of it and lead your life blindly.
That´s a very odd statement coming from a mormon. So basically God always said the same thing, but its true application varies according to our understanding – even if they contradict each other in different times of history… yeah, that makes sense. God could not be more ambiguous. Is that what mormonism is? Just another perspective/understanding of God´s Word?
Also, if God was to depend on people being prepared to receive Jesus, He wouldn´t have come even to this day. Does God depend on people being ready to receive? WHat?!? I mean, look at the people of Israel in Egypt – they weren´t prepared for the things that happened and got God angry at them many times for all the terrible things they did – why didn´t God wait for them to be prepared to reveal more? As if God depended on us to perform His works… that´s the mormon worldview though – that god rewards them with new knowledge when they get real special towards Him – that´s why no new revelation has been received by them so far – they haven´t pleased God since the days of BY.