A Royal Priesthood

The Priesthood is a big deal in Mormonism. At Mormon.org it is defined as “The power and authority of God, given to men on earth to act in all things for the salvation of God’s children.”

Fifteenth LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley said, “Without [the Priesthood], we have nothing.” (Ensign, Aug 1998, 72)

The April 2005 Visiting Teaching message suggested that the words of LDS priesthood leaders “are from the Lord Himself.” (Ensign, Apr 2005, 60)

Eleventh LDS President Harold B. Lee said the Priesthood is “the center and core of the Church and kingdom of God.” (Ensign, Jan 2002, 14)

Third LDS President John Taylor said that it is by the Priesthood “that all things are [upheld and] governed on the earth and in the heavens, and [it is] by that power that all things are upheld and sustained. It governs all things—it directs all things—it sustains all things…” (Ensign, Nov 2002, 7)

And, according to Mormonism, worthy Latter-day Saint men are given that astonishing power to carry out God’s will on earth.

Christians raise an objection to the doctrine of the LDS Priesthood, pointing out that the New Testament says all of God’s people belong to a “royal priesthood.” Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson explain,

“As for the authority of the Christian, 1 Peter 2:9 says he or she is part of ‘a chosen generation’ and ‘a royal priesthood.’ The believer is given the right to be called a child of God [John 1:12]. Indeed, when speaking of believers, 1 John 3:2 says that ‘now are we the sons of God.’ First John 5:5 adds that only those who believe ‘that Jesus is the Son of God’ have overcome the world. They, then, are the ones who have been given divine authority.” (Mormonism 101, 89)

To better understand the biblical doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, and to recognize the LDS Priesthood’s incompatibility with the biblical teaching, please read the following article from Tabletalk magazine (more of my comments follow this quoted article).


A Royal Priesthood in Christ

1 Peter 2:9-10: But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

As we consider the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood, it is important to remember that although the tribe of Levi was set apart to perform the sacrifices and lead worship in the tabernacle and temple, God never intended the descendants of Levi to be the only priestly figures in the nation of Israel. In fact, the Lord originally called His people out of bondage in Egypt so that the entire nation would serve Him as “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Ex. 19:1-6). The priestly institution itself was needed only because the sin of the people had not yet been finally dealt with, and an intermediary was required between Israel and God lest His holiness break out and destroy His sinful people (Ex. 19:24; Amos 5:6).

Only when the wickedness of Israel had finally been dealt with could the people of God truly become that nation of priests that requires no Levitical mediator between them and the Almighty. Having sanctified and perfected us in His Father’s sight forevermore through His offering of Himself (Heb. 10:10-14), Christ Jesus has made all who are in Him the priesthood that God always intended His people to be. No longer need we rely on an intermediary who is a sinner like us; rather, the Lord has become the mediator between Himself and His own in the person of the God-man Jesus Christ (Heb. 9:15).

Peter explains in 1 Peter 2:9-10 that we are that royal priesthood who need none but Christ to stand between us and the Father.  Martin Luther pointed out in his Babylonian Captivity of the Church that “all we who are Christians are priests,” and no believer has greater access to the Creator than any other. Pastors and elders are appointed to teach the church the will of God from His Word (1 Tim. 3:1-7), but they do not represent us before the heavenly throne like the Levitical priests did under the administration of the old covenant.

In Christ, there is a true priesthood of all believers. All of us who trust in Jesus alone for salvation have free access into His presence, and all of our lawful vocations are set apart for true God-honoring service. The janitor who does his work to the Lord is in no worse position spiritually than the most gifted preacher on the planet, for all Christians have been declared righteous servants of the creator God. (Devotional entry for May 12, 2010)


The biblical teaching regarding priests and priesthood is not about power and authority to act in God’s name, but rather it is about mediation, redemption, and admission into the very presence of God.

Nevertheless, Christians are not lacking divine power and authority. As the New Testament explains, through God’s New Covenant He has given His people the outpouring of His Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that anointed Jesus Christ has also anointed the people of God (See Acts 2; 1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4). Jesus offered the final physical sacrifice for sin, thereby fulfilling the Aaronic priesthood (Hebrews 9:11-15). God’s people, being filled with the Holy Spirit, have the authority and obligation to offer spiritual sacrifices to God (Romans 12:1; 1 Peter 2:5, 9). Furthermore, this Holy Spirit, designated as “the Spirit of truth,” is promised to “abide with [them] forever” (John 14:16-17. See also 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5). Christ, as the head of the body (the church), works through His people, using them to spread the Good News of the Gospel and thereby build His church (Colossians 1:18).

By God’s grace He has made His people a royal priesthood and endowed each one with power and authority. But, unlike the LDS Prophet who maintained that without the Priesthood Mormons would have nothing, Christians understand that without the priesthood we would still have Jesus — and He is all we need.

About Sharon Lindbloom

Sharon surrendered her life to the Lord Jesus Christ in 1979. Deeply passionate about Truth, Sharon loves serving as a full-time volunteer research associate with Mormonism Research Ministry. Sharon and her husband live in Minnesota.
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72 Responses to A Royal Priesthood

  1. falcon says:

    On another thread I wrote about where the Mormon priesthood came from. It’s another one of those Joseph Smith stories of a supernatural appearance by a Biblical or heavenly being.
    “On May 15, 1829, John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery near Harmony, Pennsylvania, and bestowed the Aaronic Priesthood on them. This ordination gave the two men authority to baptize and they immediately performed that ordinance for one another in the Susquehannah River. The Prophet Joseph Smith had received no previous revelations authorizing him to baptize; to perform that ordinance properly required specific authorization from God. The return of John to bestow the Aaronic Priesthood confirmed that divine authority had been lost from the earth and that a heavenly visitation was necessary to restore it.”
    Here’s the link to the rest of the short article.


    If someone will believe this tale they might also enjoy many others from various religious sects. Having been raised Catholic, I cut my eye teeth on supernatural accounts of appearances especially those of the Virgin Mary (see Lourdes and Fatima) for example.
    Here’s the difference. I don’t think that any of the claimed appearances by say the Virgin Mary established any doctrine. They did establish a type of “devotion” to Mary as did other appearances by the Sacred Heart of Jesus, for example.
    What Smith is claiming is “authority” based on an appearance by John the Baptist. This was Smith’s supposed anointing because the priesthood and also the “real” gospel had been lost. What nonsense. First of all we have a paper trail in both the Scriptures and the writings of the Church Fathers that blow apart Smith’s claims of a lost gospel. Also the Holy Spirit was given as a gift to the Church.
    The Holy Spirit never left! I can testify to that!

  2. falcon says:

    If someone will believe that John the Baptist appeared to Joseph Smith, they’d probably also believe that a 900 foot Jesus appeared to Oral Roberts.
    Is it any wonder that people get so easily off track in their religious life. Anyone can spin a good yarn about something that the Lord told them or of an angel that appeared to them or anyone of a variety of Biblical characters or heavenly beings.
    When folks start developing and establishing doctrine based on something that God, or an angel or the Virgin Mary or whoever told them in an appearance, they are entering the land of unsubstantiated speculation.
    The Bible is very clear about the testing of spirits. It’s also clear that if possible, even the elect can be led astray.
    Mormons dig revelation. It’s the LDS program. In fact “revelation” is the basis for the Mormon program. It makes Mormons think they’ve grabbed a hold of something really unique and special.
    I’m a big consumer of religious TV. It’s not for the reason that folks might suspect. I like to watch and listen and test how attuned I am to the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. It’s interesting that at times I can discard about 95% of what I hear. Not so much because it’s all that false but because the “preacher” bringing the message or teaching is spouting his opinion but doing it with authority, enthusiasm and conviction. Most of the time it’s pretty harmless stuff; sort of entertaining; kind of like a motivational speech.
    It’s when the listeners begin to turn their lives, time, treasure and devotion over to what a person claims to have heard or seen is when the trouble starts.
    Joseph Smith had no authority bestowed on him by John the Baptist or any other Biblical character.

  3. Mike R says:

    It seems that when the teachings on priesthood in the N.T. are considered ,
    it appears less complicated than when compared to what Mormon leaders
    have interpreted it to be. I’m convinced that we don’t need the Mormon
    version of priesthood and what comes with it i.e. a prophet, a Temple etc.
    I like what was said here , ” In Christ, there is a true priesthood of all believers.
    All of us who trust in Jesus alone for salvation have free access into His
    presence ….” .

  4. Mike R says:

    Their claim is clear on who has God’s stamp of approval , His exclusive
    appointment to speak to mankind for Him : ” The power and authority
    of God, given to men on earth to act in all things FOR THE SALVATION
    OF God’s children. ” Thus is the message of Mormonism. This lofty claim
    rightly invites caution by those who realize Jesus’ words of warning in
    Matt.24:11,24. It’s unfortunate that whether in the secular realm or
    the religious one, those who like to emphasize their “authority” can easily
    overstep their claimed position and create “requirements ” that not only
    surpass what God intended, but in the secular area, common sense !
    This is not to say that those making these claims are evil or devious people.
    As religious leaders, prophets, they simply have a conviction that what they
    feel , what they reason , is God speaking to them , they live a moral lifestyle
    so God just has to speak to them and through them. This is not new behavior .
    Not all false prophets are immoral men , but they all have one thing in common
    they all produce much of what is only “the precepts of men” ( 2 Nephi) , yet call
    it “Godly counsel” or “divine direction ” from God- Prov.14:12 ; Jer.23:16.
    Let’s take a look at Mormon prophets/apostles to see where they enter this
    [ cont]

  5. falcon says:

    Here’s something that should appeal to Mormons who need to sell their homes. Since they’re basing their faith on the appearance of John the Baptist for reestablishing the priesthood and also the transfiguration of BY into JS and so forth.
    You buy this St Joseph kit with a statue of St Joseph. Bury the statue in your yard and say the prayer in faith. If the house doesn’t sell it’s probably a lack of faith. Sort of like not having a testimony of the BoM.
    Begin by choosing an honorable location in the front of the home to bury the Saint Joseph statue. Having a positive mental connection with the location is helpful. For instance, burying the statue in a flower garden would be a better choice than burying it in the yard next to the trash container. For those who live in a condominium, they may choose to place Saint Joseph in the bottom of a potted plant. Another good place to bury the statue is directly next to the “For Sale” sign in front of the home.
    The statue should be buried upside-down, with the face of Saint Joseph facing the house. Most importantly, as the statue is being buried, pray to Saint Joseph. Ask him to bless your life by selling your home as quickly as possible. Don’t forget to ask him for your home to sell at your desired price, or above it. Keep praying to Saint Joseph until the house is sold. After the house has sold, remove the statue and take it with you.
    After relocating to the new home, place the statue inside the home in a place of honor. Be certain to thank God for sending Saint Joseph to bless your life.
    Read more: Instructions for St. Joseph Statues | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5234088_instructions-st_-joseph-statues.html#ixzz1UpwSahoJ

  6. Mike R says:

    Mormon leaders make the most authoritative claims: ” Our salvation is
    contingent upon our belief in a living prophet and adherence to his word.”
    Also, ” Salvation is in the Church, and of the Church, and is obtained only
    through the Church. ” [ Apostle Petersen, Deseret News 4-14-1973 ]. Nowhere
    is this claimed authority more pronounced than when these men declare what
    are the requirements to gain eternal life with God. Mormon Apostle Franklin
    Richards said, ” The Temples, the houses of our God, when acceptably dedicated
    become to us the gates of heaven . ” [ J.of D. v25p231] . Mormon leaders,
    exercising their claimed authority, have declared what is required for a
    sincere LDS to enter God’s house to meet with their Father, as it were. Sadly,
    what has been declared as trustworthy spiritual guidance by these leaders
    is seen to be another example of religious men , no doubt sincere, who have
    only delivered man-made requirements . Some examples: at one time a female
    who has a husband or marries a man not in the Church cannot be admitted to
    the Temple to receive her endowments. Same rule for a man who marries a wife
    not in the Church. Another : ” No person will be eligible to receive these [ temple
    blessings] except they have been rebaptized , ” [ from Pres. John Taylor 1877 ]
    A man should not touch a woman for 10 days before getting his Endowments.
    [ Brigham Young ] . There’s also the prohibition from drinking a cup of tea today.
    What does all this mean ? We need to take Jesus’ warning seriously concerning
    false prophets. We also need to remember Sharon’s last sentence in her statements
    above. We politely dismiss Mormon prophets/temples and authority.

  7. helenlouissmith says:

    “A man should not touch a woman for 10 days before getting his Endowments.”
    [ Brigham Young ]

    A most interesting quote, could anyone reference this for me, I have checked and so far nothing seems to verify this quote. Oh well, I’m sure there are those here who can account for this quoted statement by Brigham Young.

  8. falcon says:

    I’m going to post a link to a Wikipedia article on Otto Fetting. It’s worth the ten minutes it takes to read it. Otto was a member of the Temple Lot Mormon sect. He claimed thirty visitations from John the Baptist. His group accepted eleven of his revelations but had some problems with portions of the twelfth one.
    Here’s an excerpt from the article that is directly applicable to the discussion here.
    “Although the Temple Lot organization had enthusiastically accepted the first eleven of Fetting’s messages, this would not hold true for the twelfth. In verse four of this missive, John the Baptist states that all persons coming into the Church of Christ must be rebaptized, as “the Lord has rejected all creeds and factions of men”. While this reflects the practice of the majority of Latter Day Saint denominations (including the Temple Lot church itself, today), it did not reflect the policy of the Temple Lot church at the time, which accepted members during this period from the Reorganized church, certain other Latter Day Saint organizations, and Joseph Smith’s pre-1844 church on their original baptisms. This message equally declared Fetting to have been given the same “keys to the priesthood” that were given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on May 15, 1829.”
    Well I guess this supports the visitation by John the Baptist to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, right?
    I don’t know about these modern day Mormon prophets. They don’t get any of these really cool visitations any more and the revelation stream seems to have dried-up. About all these modern day honchos in the LDS church can do is give motivational speeches on clean living. Doesn’t seem to me that they are really fulfilling the obligations of their office.

  9. helenlouissmith says:

    What to do! oh, what shall I do? with all the accounts of Mormon schismatic groups we now have
    Otto’s account. I must have been deceived when I joined what I thought was the only true Church, this story rings so true that I have this weird feeling that I should have followed him instead of JS who we all know can’t even get the first vision correct. I should be looking for a prophet that has visitations on a hourly, weekly and monthly bases, not some dried up old “well” of a speaker who only soothes me with His/Her good feelings and highly motivational sermons.

    Wow, I completely understand now, if it’s not in the Bible, Book of Mormon or any of our other standard works, as a Mormon I was fooled into thinking I should not take seriously some other person who claims visitations, shame on me shame on the Church.
    But if it’s not in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price, we just don’t take angelic visitations seriously. We don’t know what to think about non-biblical angels. When For example, we don’t accept it as fact that the Angel Gabriel visited Mohammed, or that Joan of Arc had a heavenly visit, or the Virgin Mary has appeared to numerous Catholics, or that Jesus appeared to Ann Lee (founder of the Shakers), or anybody else. I’m a TBM and don’t accept any other angels, there I said it, but now after reading Otto, I’m just stunned, could it be possible, could it be that I blew it, could it be that I was faked out all these years. Falcon is on to something.

  10. Mike R says:

    Helen, the question about Brigham Young you mentioned is found in
    the book, ” The Development of LDS Temple Worship 1846-2000, A
    Documentary History” by historian Devery S. Anderson, by Signature
    Books. I’m glad you asked because there is a slight correction needed here.
    The quote I referenced was by Wilford Woodruff who agreed with Young:
    ” Men and women should have no sexual connection for a week or more
    previous to their going to the temple to receive endowments”, Brigham
    Young wrote to Bishops in January 1877. ” A man should not touch a
    woman for 10 days before getting their endowments, ” Church President
    Wilford Woodruff agreed in another letter.
    This is from the publisher.

  11. falcon says:

    Here’s some more about Otto Fetting and his John the Baptist visitations as chronicled in the Wikipedia article.
    Fetting would be visited a total of 30 times by his “messenger” prior to his death on January 30, 1933. To the end of his life, Fetting insisted upon the veracity of his heavenly visitor, and the truth of the messages he was given. He authored the following testimony in 1929:
    ” I make this solemn declaration before God this day, God being my witness, and I expect some day to stand before the judgement bar to answer for this statement.
    The manifestation and words of the visits of the Messenger are true. I have seen him from time to time. I heard his voice, I’ve seen his face, I saw the light, I felt his hand on my head and the slap on my shoulder. I was enwrapt in that wonderful Heavenly and Divine power, and the words I have given you are not my words, but the words God sent by John the Baptist.
    I want to make this statement, so that everyone may know that this is true; it matters little what will become of me hereafter, but I cannot, nor will not, deny the things I have seen and heard from the Heavenly Messenger as long as I have my right mind, and God gives me life and His grace to endure here on Earth.
    Others may make statements about me, but I want this to be understood that this statement is true. And I shall abide by the advice and instructions given by the Messenger regardless of what men may say.”
    Independence, Missouri, October 9, 1929
    Four other people claimed to have seen John the Baptist during his final visit to Fetting, and their testimony was notarized.

  12. falcon says:

    Now who could doubt this, right? I mean four other people testified to have seen John the Baptist during his final visit to Fetting.
    I guess we’re going to have to declare all visitations from angelic beings and Biblical characters as legitimate and the messages binding.
    What if these messages from the heavenly visitors contradict other visitors and the Bible itself? Well I guess that’s where personal, individual revelation must kick in. Folks inclined to believe such things then use their “inner witness” to confirm the veracity of the claims, right? Now what if the inner witness is contrary to the Biblical revelation?
    Well then I guess we have to conclude that the Bible is corrupt because the real meaning and information was lost because the Bible was copied so many times, right? And also there’s these conspiracies going on that prohibit the real and true revelation from appearing in the Biblical text, right?
    Jesus warned us about this very thing. Unfortunately there’s a ready made market out there of folks who are willing to jump on board the train that is traveling at break-neck speed towards the end of the track that tumbles off a spiritual precipice.
    “Four years after Fetting’s death, a young Fettingite Elder named William A. Draves from Nucla, Colorado claimed that the same messenger who had appeared to Fetting had begun to appear to him, as well.. ……….. Draves himself would receive a total of 90 messages prior to his death in 1994, all of which were combined with Fetting’s combined with Fetting’s into a book entitled The Word of the Lord Brought to Mankind by an Angel.”
    I know, Joseph Smith’s appearance by John the Baptist was different. Smith’s was real and the priesthood is real and the magic rock in the hat is real………..

  13. Mike R says:

    Why did Jesus warn of future false prophets? No doubt these spiritual
    leaders would claim to possess authority from God as a means to get
    people to listen to them and eventually submit to their teachings. We’ve
    seen a few examples above where Mormon leaders have claimed to reveal
    God’s “requirements” on gaining eternal life with Him, as the Temple
    is viewed as a gate to heaven the requirements to enter that gate are
    paramount spiritually. Unfortunately these requirements proclaimed
    by Mormon leaders are seen for what they really are — the precepts of
    men , which are being created and discarded at will by these prophets.
    Yet , despite this confusion, the claim is still made : ” We can
    accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through
    the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the priesthood,
    which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make
    known His mind and will to the world.” [ A Course of Study for the MEl.
    Priesthood Quorums, 1970-71 , p.69 ]
    Let’s see another example of what this authoritative channel revealed as
    coming from the mind of God : [ cont.]

  14. helenlouissmith says:

    “In addition to changes in the ordinances, policies have changed. “Men and women should have no sexual connection for a week or more previous to their going to the temple to receive endowments,” Brigham Young wrote to bishops in January 1877. “A man should not touch a woman for 10 days before getting their Endowments,” Church President Wilford Woodruff agreed in another letter. Those attending the temple had to be “firm believers in plural marriage,” bishops were told in November 1885.”

    That’s it, the only reference is two possible letters? One from Wilford Woodruff and the other to Bishops? I find this type of journalism frustrating when trying to confirm or verify. There is nothing else out there I can find, but in the book you have the above only, yet no actual reference to where someone can go to verify these letters, most interesting.

  15. Mike R says:

    [ cont]
    Ordaining to the Mormon priesthood, consistant with the New Testament?
    LDS Biographical Encylopedia v.3 p. 577 : Elijah Abel a colored man was
    ordained to the Priesthood in 1836. Additional information on Elijah Abel
    states that he claimed Joseph Smith knowingly allowed him to old the
    priesthood . Abel also stated that his Patriarchal blessing promised him that
    he would be used by God as a welding link between the races.
    LDS Pres. Stephen L. Richards has taught the seriousness of the Patriarchal
    blessing when he said that patriarchs of the church , ” …..depict under
    inspiration …. lineage and future potentialities.” [ About Mormonism p.12].
    So what does this mean ? Well , ” when church leaders became aware that
    [Abel] had Negro blood, his priesthood was suspended….he was dropped from
    his priesthood quorum [ in 1879 ] ….It is admitted that the Priesthood has been
    mistakenly given to some who are light in color. However the Church wishes to
    follow the order of heaven and the commandment of God, therefore when Negro
    ancestry is discovered in a man who holds the Priesthood, he is suspended in the
    use of that Priesthood. ” [ The Church and the Negro, p.76-79 ] .
    Joseph Fielding Smith taught , ” In the Reorganized church they have a few
    at least, of the Negro race, that they have ordained to the priesthood, but it is
    contrary to the word of God. ” [ Origin of the Reorganized Church and the
    Question of suscession, p. 130 ]. Various Mormon leaders have gone on record
    calling the Reorganized Church a cult .
    What’s going on here ? How can patriarchal blessings be “mistakingly given ”
    if they are given ” under inspiration” from God ???

  16. Mike R says:

    Mormon general authorities and other faithful priesthood holders
    have been clear in relation to Negroes : ” Negroes in this life are denied
    the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation
    of authority from the Almighty. The gospel message of salvation is not
    carried affirmatively to them….” [ Bruce McConkie].
    ” ….the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has no call to carry
    the Gospel to the Negro, and it does not do so. ” [ Arthur Richardson ].
    There seems to have been a choice here it seems. Either follow what Jesus
    had told us through His original apostles concerning all peoples [ Acts 10] , or
    follow Mormon prophets and apostles, who despite their claims of authority
    through their “appointed channel” , have not revealed God’s mind on some
    vital issues. This is not new behavior by those who advertise their authority:

    ” I have not sent these prophets , yet they ran; I have not spoken to them yet
    they prophesied. ” Jer.23:21

    The Mormon people deserve a “appointed channel” that is more trustworthy.
    The moral lifestyle that they strive to live is great. So May God give them the
    strength to dismiss their prophets and apostles who have become detours
    from the truth about who God is and how they can receive eternal life with

  17. The two quotes Mike R listed are also included in David John Buerger, The Mysteries of Godliness, page 100. His references are as follows:

    Brigham Young: Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 7:308 (26 Dec 1866)
    Wilford Woodruff: Journal History, 31 Jan 1868, LDS archives; also “Manuscript History of Brigham Young,” for 1868, 131.

  18. Mike R says:

    Thanks Sharon.

    Helen , can you please step back a step and ponder the all important question
    posed by my posts here ? i.e. the reliability of Mormon leaders to be trustworthy in
    relaying God’s truths to their followers ? Are all these “requirements ” necessary
    to eventually gain eternal life with God ? Or are they the precepts of religious men?
    I’ve said it many times on this blog that Mormon leaders are men who strive to live
    a moral lifestyle consistent with the teachings of Jesus, BUT that is not enough .
    They’re claims of exclusive insight into God’s will concerning spiritual truths
    can not be by-passed just because they live a moral liestyle . They either are
    trustworthy in this claim or not. Not all false prophets are immoral men , please
    think that through. Thanks.

  19. falcon says:

    One of the major problems Mormons have in regards to the “restoration” of the priesthood is that the priesthood was never apart of the Christian church. One would think that if their was spiritual power invested in a priesthood that Jesus would have brought it up or that the apostles would have at least made mention of it. But it’s no where to be found and is another one of Joseph Smith’s grand ideas.
    In His post resurrection appearances Jesus told the disciples that they would receive power when the Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 1:8). Also in Acts 1:5 Jesus says that John baptized with water but the disciples would be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Not one mention of any kind of a priesthood, or temples, or rituals, or endowments or sacred undergarments.
    In Ephesians 4:11 we see the five fold ministry of the Holy Spirit; no priesthood. In First Corinthians 12:4-6 Paul writes about “varieties” of gifts, ministries, and effects and then in First Corinthians 12:8-10 lists these things.
    Notice there is no priesthood. Why is that? Because it didn’t exist. The power for carrying out the Gospel mandate comes through the Holy Spirit, not through some fictitious priesthood.
    I would guess that a lot of Mormon men get into the idea that they have some sort of power bestowed upon them due to their receiving the Mormon priesthood. Along with the “burning in the bosom” claim regarding the BoM, what we’re dealing with here is largely emotional and the power of suggestion.
    John the Baptist nor any other heavenly visitors ever appeared to Joseph Smith. Smith was a very clever con man who was able to hook folks who are willing to suspend credulity and buy his myth.

  20. falcon says:

    There’s a real problem when someone billing themselves as a prophet, constructs a church role, on the basis of a miraculous appearance by some sort of spirit being. I documented above the account of a couple of guys who belonged to Mormon sects who claimed something like 120 appearances of a spirit being. There was, of course, the obligatory “revelations” provided by the spirit being.
    The problem with people who follow prophets, seers and revelators who tell these tales, is that they are enamored with the stories. The followers always feel that their seer is the real deal while other seers are false and have false messages.
    The story of James Strang, rival of Young and Rigdon for the mantel of Smith is intriguing. Wikipedia:
    “Strang next testified that on September 1, 1845, an angel of God appeared to him and showed him the location of “the record of my people in whose possession thou dwellest.”[2] Accordingly, Strang went on September 13 to the indicated site, located in Voree south of the White River on what is now referred to as the “Hill of Promise.” He led four witnesses to a large oak on the hillside, inviting them to examine the ground around the tree carefully before digging for the plates. All four later testified that they could discern no evidence of digging or other disturbance of the ground.
    After removing the tree, Strang’s companions dug down approximately three feet, where they discovered three small brass plates in a case of baked clay. Strang subsequently claimed to have deciphered this record, which he said was authored by an ancient Native American named “Rajah Manchou of Vorito.”[3]
    Who could doubt an angelic appearance and buried plates?

  21. Kate says:

    This is one thing that I have been thinking about for about a year now. There are so many different sects of Mormonism. All with a prophet, all claiming to be THE ONE TRUE CHURCH, all claiming the others are apostate, all claiming the rights to the keys of the kingdom, all claiming the only true priesthood, etc. How is one to really know which one is the truth? Followers of each sect will testify of the truthfulness by studying, pondering and praying, and then God tells them it’s true by the burning in the bosom. I wonder if say someone from one sect has really studied, pondered and prayed about another sect? How does one from the LDS church KNOW for sure that those from the FLDS sect are false? How? How does one from the FLDS sect KNOW that those of the Temple Lot sect are false? All of this bickering back and forth about who has the rights of Joseph’s Mormonism. Have any of you heard of a guy called Matthew Gill from Great Britain? Well this guy claims that he’s the rightful prophet of Joseph’s Mormonism and he’s translated the Book of Jeraneck and has quite the following. Research him out. It’ quite an interesting read. Especially how he ties Stonehenge into it all! So how are we to know if he’s the one and only true prophet of Mormonism? People are obviously searching, pondering and praying about it and getting a “testimony” of it from God. The Bible tells us to test every spirit, we are to use the scriptures and Christ’s own words of warning to help us determine who is a false prophet. Mormonism has so much baggage and what did Christ tell us? Matthew 11:30

  22. Mike R says:

    Falcon, I don’t think enough people realize how many similarities there are
    with these false prophet led groups. The religion that my wife was once a
    faithful servant in was always reminding members of the unique authority
    it alone possessed as the one true religion that God favored to speak through to
    mankind.With a prophet at the top who alone constituted the “channel of
    communication” that God used to teach His people, this claim was front and center
    in advertising their faith. Yet this claim of authority is’nt unique as Mormon
    leaders advertise their ” priesthood authority” which includes the one prophet
    that God uses to direct His people through, the ” appointed channel” He uses etc.
    Heeding Jesus’ warning that false prophets would come, the early believers knew
    that these prophets should be tested, evaluated, as to their teachings . Since many
    false prophets would advocate a moral lifestyle, the crucial evaluating of these
    prophets would be in what they taught concerning how a person can be made right
    with God unto receiving eternal life, what ” requirements” did the prophet teach
    were necessary etc. Joined to this would be who he taught Jesus was , as imitation
    Christ’s were foretold to come also [ Matt 24]. May the Mormon people see the
    importance of Jesus’ warning in Matt 7:15 and test their prophets fruit[teachings]
    by the scriptures — Acts 17:11; 2Jn.1:9 . May God help them find the time to do so.

  23. Kate says:

    You said: “Who could doubt an angelic appearance and buried plates?”

    Exactly. This is what made me think of Matthew Gill. He claims to have been visited by Moroni while in bed at the age of 12. Check out his testimony, I can’t copy a link to it, just Google Testimony of Matthew Philip Gill. The name of his church is The Latter Day Church Of Jesus Christ. Are we to believe that he is a Christian just because Christ appears in the name of his church? I don’t think so. Here’s a link to his official church website. http://thelatterdaychurchofchrist.blogspot.com/

  24. Kate says:

    Oops sorry, I posted the blog spot, here’s the official site:


  25. Rick B says:

    Helen sarcasticly said

    JS who we all know can’t even get the first vision correct.

    You can say what you want, But you have never answered my question, or for that matter no mormon has tried.

    Which First vision is the correct vision? If it really is the very first one, why are their 8 more that all differ? And if it really is not the first one, when which one is the correct one?

  26. falcon says:

    The standard Mormon response will be that JS was simply filling in details as he remembered them later on. According to Grant Palmer author of “An Insiders View of Mormon Origins”, the reason that JS headed out to the woods was to gain assurance for the forgiveness of sins. I think going out to the woods to pray was a fairly common deal among the revivalist folks of that era. Check out Charles Finney’s testimony. I have the sneaking suspicion that JS ripped off Finney’s testimony and made it his own. Here’s a site that address that question:


    After the resurrection of Jesus, He told His disciples to check the Scriptures to see if indeed He was the Messiah. He didn’t tell them to pray about it for a burning in the bosom. Here’s Jesus, risen from the dead, standing in front of His disciples and He’s telling them to check it all out in the Scriptures (Luke 24:44-49). Also in Luke 24:24-27 when Jesus appeared to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, He told them to check the Scriptures. In Luke 24:32 the disciples use the phrase “hearts burning” but it’s an expression and not meant to be some sort of sign.
    The bosom burning as a test of truth is why so many people follow false prophets. It’s pretty easy to gin-up that feeling and convince people that it’s God speaking to them through this emotional experience.
    John Wesley the founder of Methodism, talked about having his heart strangely warmed when he came to understand that he did have the assurance of salvation. Charles Spurgeon the great 19th century English preacher used much the same language to express his coming to Christ. Neither of these men used the expression as a means for finding truth.

  27. helenlouissmith says:

    Sharon Lindbloom says:
    August 13, 2011 at 10:31 am
    Brigham Young: Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, 7:308 (26 Dec 1866)
    Wilford Woodruff: Journal History, 31 Jan 1868, LDS archives; also “Manuscript History of Brigham Young,” for 1868, 131.

    I looked up both references. Wilford Woodruff does not mention anything of the kind and BY, his Autobiography (1801-1844) in Manuscript History of Brigham Young. So we see that the reference indicates most likely a Biography and not his autobiography. (1844 last date). It’s still not clear that either one these gentlemen ever stated such a thing as was quoted. Sounds like a second or third party assumption.

  28. Helen, There may be a typo in Buerger’s book. He references the same quote by Brigham Young in a Dialogue article but puts it in volume 6 (rather than 7) of Wilford Woodruff’s Journal edited by Scott Kenney, published by Signature Books. The quote might be found, then, in vol 6, page 308 (under the date of 26 Dec 1866). It is my understanding that Journal History is only available on microfilm at a few select LDS libraries.

  29. helenlouissmith says:

    In speaking of the endowments, President Young said that all persons who wished strictly to observe the law of the Celestial Marriage should not get married until they got their endowments and are sealed at the altar. The people should be gathered at headquarters where they can be taught in the things of the Kingdom of God and be under the direction of the Priesthood. President Young said that when persons came to get their endowments, they should be clean and pure. A man should not touch a woman for ten days before getting their endowments, and the Twelve while travelling should hold meetings with the male members at Priesthood meetings and teach them, but they have to be handled in wisdom or evil will grow out of it.

    I could not find BY’s quote but as it seems to me he specifically is stating a man and women should not get married until they each receive their endowments. The touching I suppose could mean many things, but here I suspect it could relate to waiting and not seeing each other for at least 10 days before they marry. He says nothing about those who are married and now want to get their endowments, wherein what ever goes on in a marriage is between the husband and wife.

  30. helenlouissmith says:

    Buerger is interesting, never read his book; but much by one BYU scholar has a lot of criticism. If you’re interested the following brings much to light about our ex-mormon friend and his book.


  31. Rick B says:

    Falcon said

    The standard Mormon response will be that JS was simply filling in details as he remembered them later on.

    Even if Mormons reply with this, it still poses problems. If JS cannot remember what happened, then how can he remember anything and how can he remember if he got the facts right or not. It does not look good for the Mormons.

  32. falcon says:

    I think I could do a post a-day on people who have claimed to have had visitations from some form of heavenly being, received special revelation and wrote about it.
    But it’s not only the visitations that could be included but the apparitions that people claim they can see in anything from a tile floor to an outside wall of a church. The latter occurs on a Catholic church in Ireland. The faithful there have covered the aberration with glass. The priest talked the government into building a big landing strip outside the village so that large airplanes would have a place to land, filled (hopefully) with people who want to come and see it. There are people who live for this sort of thing especially if the image is of the Virgin Mary.
    Weeping statues garner a lot of attention. Wikipedia:
    “Reported weeping statues are most often of the Virgin Mary and are at times accompanied by claims of Marian apparitions. However, to date only one single example of a combined weeping statue and apparition (namely Our Lady of Akita) has been approved by the Vatican and the rest have usually been dismissed as hoaxes. An unusual nature of the Our Lady of Akita apparitions was that unlike other cases the entire nation of Japan was able to view the tears of the statue of the Virgin Mary on national television.[1]”
    Again, folks swear that their favorite prophet, revelation, appearance, or apparition is real while the others are false. Although there are people who are quite indiscriminate and choose to believe all of them.
    In the case of Mormons, they believe the heavenly creatures that appeared to Joseph Smith are fundamental to their faith. If for example, John the Baptist didn’t appear to Smith, the foundation of the priesthood is gone.

  33. falcon says:

    Christians aren’t required to believe in reported extra Biblical appearances by heavenly beings. In Mormonism, it is absolutely essential that the faithful believe Joseph Smith’s accounts of the visitations.
    I don’t know if I can recount all of the appearances but of course there’s an angel called Moroni, Jesus and God the Father, John the Baptist, I think maybe Peter and James and John but I’m not sure about that one, and of course the angel with the sword that threatened to kill him if he didn’t start practicing polygamy. Then we have the transfiguration of BY into Joseph Smith.
    Seeing God the Father is a little problematic for Mormons since the Bible tells us that God the Father is spirit. Jesus said that no one had seen the Father. I would guess that’s because He is a spirit. Mormonism also runs into a little problem because if it were a “vision” of the Father that was seen, the vision couldn’t be flesh and bones. But that’s a minor issue I guess.
    Building doctrine and sustaining faith on someone’s claim of heavenly beings appearing to them is, as I have said, risky business. Who can prove it? And when the “revelations” from these beings contradict the Bible and established orthodox tradition, it’s a bad move to go with the appearances and revelations.
    But what if a person gets an “inner witness” about these things. I’d say, doubt the inner witness. “Inner witness” is the fun part for Mormons and indeed even some Christians. It makes the person believe they are receiving messages and revelation directly from God. The person thus can feel important and highly spiritual. Unfortunately what these special private messages generally produce is spiritual pride.
    Do I think that people hear from God. Absolutely! But it’s consistent with God’s Word.

  34. Mike R says:

    Claiming to restore the doctrines and offices of Jesus’ Church which He
    established 2000 yrs ago , but which was changed and corrupted by man,
    Mormon officials proudly advertise they alone have been hand picked by
    Jesus to Restore His church. Advertising an exclusive claim to God’s
    authority , His “appointed channel” that He uses to reveal His saving
    truths, these religious leaders have proceeded to influence many sincere
    people who have a desire to serve God. These spiritual leaders have
    used their claimed authority to issue laws, commands, ordinances that
    they proclaim as being required for sincere LDS in order for them to gain
    a right relationship with God and eventually leading to eternal life with Him.
    Sadly, sincere LDS have been tossed to and fro by their leaders’ teachings on
    these so called ” requirements”. By creating many of these requirements out of
    whole cloth, or misinterpreting the scriptures, the result is the same as it reveals
    Mormon leaders to be little different from those who they have written off as
    spiritually blind because Mormon priests themselves have , ” taught for
    doctrines the commandments of men” [ J.S.history 1:19] .
    Mormon leaders, despite their claimed authority , have proven to be unreliable
    guides in giving consistent spiritual truth on vital issues pertaining to how a
    person can gain eternal life. May the Mormon people dismiss these guides —
    because there is a better way. Heb 7:25

  35. Mike R says:

    Helen, your replies to what I posted concerning statements from Mormon
    leaders ( B.Y.and Wilford Woodruff) were interesting. These statements were
    from a Mormon researcher as I had mentioned. Also, you appeared to ignore
    the point of all my posts , which centered on the claim of Mormon prophets
    and apostles to be consistent and reliable guides in providing spiritual truths
    on some very important issues. This claim is simply not true. Mormon leaders
    claim to reveal the mind and will of the Lord, that the Lord is actively directing
    these men in the affairs of the Church: ” The voice of the a living prophet bearing
    God’s message is clear and sure and safe and direct. ” ” There is at least one place
    we can turn for pure unpolluted guidance. ” [ 1998 Gen. Conf. Virginia Jensen].
    When we look at a very crucial issue , that of what Mormon leaders have revealed
    to be the “requirements” necessary to eventually gain eternal Life with God, we
    see a pattern emerge. A pattern of indecision , confusion, creating requirements,
    dumping requirements , all in the name of ” pure unpolluted guidance ” . This is
    not new behavior — Eph.4:14. These type of pronouncements from prophets are
    all to similar of those who Mormons have been told are spiritually blind because of
    their behavior to ” teaching for doctrine the commandments of men ” [ J.S. history
    2:19 ] . Now let me comment on what you said about husband and wife

  36. Mike R says:

    Helen, you said , ” He said nothing about those who are married and now want to get
    their endowments, wherein what ever goes on in a marriage is between husband and wife.”
    That last part sure sounds right. Trouble is , those who follow the counsel of certain prophets
    can suddenly find that what you’ve just stated is not exactly that easy . Zina Young , with 40
    years of polygamous experience counseled young women who had entered polygamy, being
    submissive to their prophet: ” Zina felt that ‘ a successful polygamous wife must reguard her
    husband with indifference and with no other feeling than that of reverence , for love we reguard
    as a false sentiment a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy.” [ Mormon
    Polygamy, by Richard Van Wagoner, p.101 ] . Furthermore, you can take a look at a photo-
    copy of a First Presidency letter to Bishops, Stake Presidents etc. where they give counsel
    on what constitutes impure , un-natural “practices” between husband and wife. They state
    that a certain intimate position between marriage partners is ” impure” . Refraining from
    this is requirement to enter the Temple. [ Jan.5, 1982 F.P. letter, see lds-mormon .com/
    worthy letter , p.2 ]. If this counsel was given ,it would be yet another ” requirement” that
    could bar you from eternal life. Helen, what’s particularly troubling with all this claimed
    authority by Mormon leaders is that all their pronouncements of what is required for a
    person to gain eternal life constitutes the Gospel of Jesus Christ . Mormon leaders claim
    to have the “un-adulterated gospel”. Since the word “adulterate ” means to ” make impure
    by mixture”, this aptly defines the “requirements” of the Mormon gospel– 2Jn1:9

  37. helenlouissmith says:

    Hello Mike R. we live in the 21st century, since the 1800’s and before all religions practiced a very strick moral code. I guess as for me, I don’t really get all that excited about what they did and preached in the time of JS and BY regarding how one needs to conduct themselves behind closed doors. Standard Works and my salvation are my only concern. As long as I keep the commandments of God and those personal covenants I made in the Temple then I feel just fine with the state of my worthiness.

    2 Corinthians 3:6, “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.”

  38. Mike R says:

    Hello Helen, I realize we live in the 21st century . It’s ironic you said that and also
    you cited 2Cor.3:6 as one of the great errors of Mormonism is that it has brought a
    Old Testament way of thinking and doing into the gospel of Jesus Christ which He
    taught to His apostles (N.T.), polygamy being just one example. So you don’t care
    what your “modern day” prophets ( B.Y. ) taught as proper intimate conduct being
    husband and wife ? You should care. Much of it had a direct effect on marriages ,
    and it can happen today( I furnished you wish one example of this), all because of
    a spiritually un-healthy submission to a prophet . It seems you resorted to the old
    tactic of using only the Standard Works as your authority on doctrine as a way to dismiss
    all of what I said to you . Well, so much for having a “living” prophet as a sign that your
    Church is the only true Church. Much of the ” requirements” that Mormon prophets
    and apostles have heaped on the backs of faithful LDS are not found in the Standard
    Works , it’s the ” precepts of men ” being taught as coming from God — 2 Nephi 28.
    2 Jn.1:9 . The Mormon people are a decent people striving to serve God. Unfortunately
    they have been detoured by submitting to prophets who have misled them on important
    truths concerning their salvation– Matt 7:15

  39. helenlouissmith says:

    The day you can explain why the Great Patriarchs in the Bible practiced polygamy or in the case of Abraham, a hand maiden and was still found to be righteous in the sight of God, then you will do yourself and a lot of others a great deed in articulating something that to this day is only brushed over by Evangelicals.

  40. Rick B says:

    Helen said

    The day you can explain why the Great Patriarchs in the Bible practiced polygamy or in the case of Abraham, a hand maiden and was still found to be righteous in the sight of God, then you will do yourself and a lot of others a great deed in articulating something that to this day is only brushed over by Evangelicals.

    Your kidding right? Please tell me this is a joke?

    This questions has been answered many times over, and LDS ignore the answer. These guys Are/were sinners as the Bible tells us. All these guys practiced polygamy becasue they wanted to and becasue they are sinners with a fallen nature. They DID NOT practice polygamy because GOD TOLD THEM TO DO IT. Yet LDS claim God did tell them to do it and that simply is not taught in the Bible.

    Then the reason they are still found to be righteous in the sight of God, is because of what God did for us, He was going to shed His blood for us, After His blood was Shed on the Cross, all our sins were covered by His Blood, Both Past, present and future sins were covered. God planned before the foundation of the world to Die for us. The Bible states that the Lamb (Jesus) Was slain before the foundation of the world. So these guys did not become Righteous by their good works, they became rightious by the shed Blood of Jesus.

  41. Mike R says:

    Helen, Abraham and polygamy ? Wrong covenant. We get our marching orders from
    Jesus through His original apostles. His gospel is called the “good news”, it is well
    stated in the New Testament. The same gospel Mormon prophets claimed to have
    restored. You might do well by comparing the myriad of requirements necessary
    for eternal life that Mormon prophets have issued since that gospel was “restored”.
    You need to realize that this is not a reflection on you, you merely follow a prophet.
    You don’t need to defend him because you don’t need him. God is wanting you to see
    that Jesus is sufficient as your prophet because it is His counsel that can be trusted.
    He is dependable and absolutely able –Heb.7:25 .

  42. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R. —- what are the requirements of eternal life? Life with God that is.
    Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, gets you into the Kingdom. Eternal life and its requirements are not so complicated. Follow Christ, be obedient to the Covenants and Ordinances one makes in the Temple of God. Be sealed to your wife for time and eternity. Other then that, having your children born under the Covenant or having them sealed if you are a new convert. You say a myriad of requirements, maybe you can be a little more specific?

    Do you mean like what they ask in the Temple Recommend interview, JS a prophet of God, is the Church true, do you attend all your meetings, morally clean, and a full tithe payer. I was doing that already before even seeking a TR. I was already on the path of qualifying for Eternal Life.

  43. Oh for goodness sake.
    God established the first marriage and made it clear as to how it was to go. Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Eve and Sally and Becky and so on. If this was how God had originally intended for marriage to happen, why did he not create more than one woman for Adam?
    As for Abraham, that was not a command by God. That was Sarah doubting God’s power to fulfill his promises. She took matters into her own hands and it ended up wreaking all kinds of emotional havoc. We’ve gone through this already. Your question is how is Abraham still considered righteous if polygamy was wrong? It’s called forgiveness. And mercy. He was considered righteous, not because of what he did or didn’t do, but because of his faith. That’s the entire point of that whole passage.
    Furthermore, in Deuteronomy, the Lord knew there would come a day when the Isrealites would want a king. So He gave them instructions on how to choose one. Deuteronomy 17:17 specifically states, “He must not take many wives or his heart will be led astray”. King Solomon took an insane amount of women as wives and cocubines. Remember what the scriptures said about him: “…and his wives led him astray” (1 Kings 11:3). Now you have the initial setup of marriage, then these requirements, some heartwrenching results that came from polygamy, and then mesh it with the BoM where God supposedly says polygamy is an abomination… and you compare this with JS’s prophecy commanding it be practiced, and the subsequent prophets teaching that it’s imperative in reaching the Celestial Kingdom. You can’t have it both ways.

  44. David was called “a man after God’s own heart”, yet he murdered and committed adultery. Moses also murdered an Egyptian, yet God still called him to lead his people out of slavery. Rahab was a prostitute, yet she made the Bible’s “Hall of Fame” list in Hebrews 11.
    Surely, you can’t use the line, “well, Abraham did it and was considered righteous”, because then you’d have to use it for all of these people. The point is that we ALL sin. And sometimes the consequences are terrible; there’s a reason God gives us guidelines. It’s for our own protection. Yet God forgives and looks past our sins. He sees the FAITH, and that’s why we’re considered righteous. All of those people that Jesus healed? Time and time again, Jesus says, “Your faith has made you well”. Not because they did anything great or practiced polygamy. They believed, and because of Jesus, were considered righteous.

  45. Kate says:

    I don’t understand why Mormons defend polygamy at all. What mental gymnastics one has to do to wrap their mind around polygamy being righteous and Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and all who practiced it did the will of the Lord! It is an eternal principle! Yet now it’s an abomination and all who engage in it are to be excommunicated. I realize revelation is responsible for the change, but for the LDS who post here to know it’s an abomination now and not of God, yet have to defend it as being honorable and righteous before the Lord is mind boggling to me! Many forget that polygamy is being practiced in LDS temples everyday. Polygamy is very much a part of Mormonism and it’s doctrines. We’ve been over this too.

  46. Mike R says:

    Helen, I wonder if you’re really reading the posts on this thread, because your last
    reply to me suggests otherwise . The amount of info I posted seems to be ignored.
    What you listed as the requirements for eternal life with God is far from what the original
    apostles were taught by Jesus to feed His Church. Furthermore, they aren’t even the whole
    package that is publically advertised by Mormon leaders. You stated, ” Other than that ……”
    Well , there’s a lot of “other than that ” because , as I stated a long ways back on this thread,
    that according to Mormon leaders entrance to the Temple ( described as a ” gate to heaven”
    by one Mormon apostle) is required to eventually gain eternal life with God . What have
    Mormon leaders counseled concerning this? The claim is made that since 1830 God has
    provided the LDS people with trustworthy spiritual guidance by way of a prophet. This
    man has varified this claim by stating that Jesus Himself is actively directing him and the
    Church he serves, this is the “authority” that is advertised to the world. Unfortunately when
    we look at the track record of the modern day prophets and apostles of Jesus’ ” restored”
    church , we see a pattern of spiritual counsel that is not consistently trustworthy or reliable-
    Eph.4:14. According to Mormon sources , women were once required to get
    their husbands permission to attend a endowment ceremony, whereas men did not need their
    wife’s permission. Re-baptism was once required for first time attendees ; a LDS woman who
    marries a non-Mormon could not receive her endowments , the list goes on. Now you may
    try rationalize all this away , but it plainly reveals another gospel–Gal1:8; 2Jn1:9 . The true
    gospel is un-cluttered. 1Jn 5:20

  47. Rick B says:

    Helen said

    Mike R. —- what are the requirements of eternal life? Life with God that is.
    Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Holy Ghost, gets you into the Kingdom. Eternal life and its requirements are not so complicated. Follow Christ, be obedient to the Covenants and Ordinances one makes in the Temple of God. Be sealed to your wife for time and eternity.

    Really Helen? You really think this way, well then why not put your money where your mouth is again, and show me from the Bible alone where it teaches this, give me chapter and verse. You said it so you should back it up. Guess what Helen, Not only do I think you cannot do it, and will find a way to get out of it, but I can show you from the Bible where JESUS said, Not and Apostle or any old person, But Jesus said, the way to be saved it ONLY TO BELIEVE UPON HIM. Not all these things you listed. And if you cannot show me from the Bible where it teaches these things, then you better clearly state you were wrong again, or I will make another appeal to the Mods for you to be banned since you are making claims that we dont know what were talking about and getting our facts wrong, yet it is you who cannot back up your talk.

  48. Mike R says:

    Helen, one more thought on all this: It’s needs stressing that although I believe
    that Mormons have the right to preach their gospel, and in fact I’m glad we live
    in a country that allows people to do that, it’s when Mormon leaders proclaim that
    their gospel and their Church are the true gospel, the very one that Jesus originally
    established 2000 yrs ago, it’s at that point that I need to say WHOA ! What I see being
    advertised is that the Mormon gospel is consistent with the Bible . Since we’re talking
    about what Jesus taught His apostles , the New Testament , the new arrangement He
    commenced with His sacrafice and resurrection, we need to see if Mormon apostles
    are indeed faithfully representing Jesus’ teachings because the warning has sounded
    that false prophets will seek to ” introduce” teachings that His apostles did not receive
    from Him– 2 Pt.2:1 = “introduce” . Please remember that the most successful false
    prophets are the ones who stress living a moral lifestyle and then slip in some inaccurate
    teachings also . From a LDS Apostle in a widely distributed advertisement on my point :
    ” Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS ( known informally by the nickname
    Mormons) believe the Bible. Indeed, so literally and completely do their beliefs and
    practices conform to the teachings of the Bible that it is not uncommon to hear informed
    persons say: ‘ If all men believed the Bible, all would be Mormons ‘ . Bible doctrine is
    Mormon doctrine and Mormon doctrine is Bible doctrine. They are one in the same.”
    [ What The Mormons Think of Christ ,p2 , quoted in Mormon Claims Answered by Marvin
    Cowan ].
    The N.T. record= the true gospel. Mormon gospel requirements= Gal.1:8 ; 2Cor11:4
    Take care

  49. helenlouissmith says:

    Rick B. threatens a Mod’s appeal too something he has not even been following, this particular thread.

    Let me walk Rick B. through the process of events.

    Mike R. makes it crystal clear that he is having a issue with the following:
    “You might do well by comparing the myriad of requirements necessary
    for eternal life that Mormon prophets have issued since that gospel was “restored”.

    In my retort Rick B. I never mentioned anything about them being in the Bible, if you look a little closer you will notice I said our (LDS) Standard Works.

    Be my guest if you feel I have again lied and you want to protest to the Mods that Helen is not playing by the rules. Knock yourself out friend.

  50. helenlouissmith says:

    Mike R. states: “it’s when Mormon leaders proclaim that
    their gospel and their Church are the true gospel, the very one that Jesus originally
    established 2000 yrs ago, it’s at that point that I need to say WHOA !”

    If I was a orthodox christian and only used the Bible as my testimony as it being the ONLY Word of God, I would also fight tooth and nail to convince others that anything else preached was a matter of interpretation.

    Already there is a in house fight about the Doctrine of Pre-Tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, Pre/Mid-Tribulation, Post-Tribulation. I mention this only in passing as a pattern I see in orthodox christianity of confusion and non-unity of faith and doctrine.

    The problem I bring to the table is what to do with the Book of Mormon and other Standard Works we present as the Word of God, is it worth investigating or as some say here, not worth reading for “revelation” has revealed to me it is false and not worth the time.

    I guess this could then bring up the topic of what is true “revelation” as found in the Bible. Is it Holy Discernment or something much more deeper and spiritual. This could make for a good topic.

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